What if ...

Most of us have heard about the situation with the violent drug gangs in Mexico. What if some of the leadership of those gangs, hid in the US, and Mexico started to bomb places in the US to kill that leadership? But also what if some of the bombs killed or injured, non-involved American citizens? How would you feel, if the place they bombed was next door, or one of those killed was a friend, or relative? Even if you did not know the Americans, would you say, "I'm so happy Mexico is getting tough on drug gangs"? Would it make a difference, if it were violent Quebec separitists and Canada was involved, in stead of Mexico? Or if Canada attacked the US and went straight on to Washington to take over, and establish the 'superior' form of parlimentary government?

You get the picture? Is it really that difficult to imagine how you would feel, in the same situation that our government places people of other nations in?

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Originally Posted by yodajazz

Most of us have heard about the situation with the violent drug gangs in Mexico. What if some of the leadership of those gangs, hid in the US, and Mexico started to bomb places in the US to kill that leadership? But also what if some of the bombs killed or injured, non-involved American citizens? How would you feel, if the place they bombed was next door, or one of those killed was a friend, or relative? Even if you did not know the Americans, would you say, "I'm so happy Mexico is getting tough on drug gangs"? Would it make a difference, if it were violent Quebec separitists and Canada was involved, in stead of Mexico? Or if Canada attacked the US and went straight on to Washington to take over, and establish the 'superior' form of parlimentary government?

You get the picture? Is it really that difficult to imagine how you would feel, in the same situation that our government places people of other nations in?

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Frankly Yoda....I don't get the picture. I mean I do....but I don't . It's a false equivalency you're making. If your talking about American interventionism for it's own self interest, admittedly I struggle with it constantly. I have come to the conclusion that not all men are created equal, not in the abstract, but in reality. What do I mean by that? Well if a dirt poor tribesman in Kabul chooses to live his life in constant fear of a brutal authoritarian group of thugs that at any moment can bust into his mud hut, take his wife and put a bullet in her head for some minor infraction to the dress code....as I get older and value life more, I no longer see that as my , or my country's problem. I realize it runs smack into my Christian upbringing and values that all men yearn to be free. They don't. I don't feel superior to that tribesman, I feel more fortunate, and I am no longer willing to sacrifice my countryman's lives, or treasure in an attempt to provide him with a concept he does not understand...freedom. I understand at times there are larger socio-political objectives to some of these endeavors and I'll take each one on a case by case basis, but after being part of a war that in hindsight cost more than we should have sacrificed in blood and toil, and to this day haunts many of us, and to no satisfactory clear cut conclusion...I am unwilling to repeat that colossal mistake. As I look back on what our reasons were for intervention into say...Afghanistan, I think many smart men after much soul searching , and with pure motives mistakenly drew a parallel between a mountain tribesman in a village near Kabul, and a mountain man from Vermont in 1775 . One understood the concept of freedom and self determination, and was willing to lay his life down for it, and one did not.

I'm not sure I've answered your hypothetical, or if I'm even sure what the larger point was.. but there it is... I'm guessing we might have more in common on this topic, albeit for different reasons, and I do vacillate on this issue.

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Originally Posted by yodajazz

Most of us have heard about the situation with the violent drug gangs in Mexico. What if some of the leadership of those gangs, hid in the US, and Mexico started to bomb places in the US to kill that leadership? But also what if some of the bombs killed or injured, non-involved American citizens? How would you feel, if the place they bombed was next door, or one of those killed was a friend, or relative? Even if you did not know the Americans, would you say, "I'm so happy Mexico is getting tough on drug gangs"? Would it make a difference, if it were violent Quebec separitists and Canada was involved, in stead of Mexico? Or if Canada attacked the US and went straight on to Washington to take over, and establish the 'superior' form of parlimentary government?

You get the picture? Is it really that difficult to imagine how you would feel, in the same situation that our government places people of other nations in?

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While i understand the point you are making, I have to say the reality is different. As a gurl that lives close to this situation physically (even have a 2nd house/land about 17miles from the border itself) you can not imagine the fear that i feel when a group of illegal aliens comes up to my property. Most of the time, they just want some water or for me to call the border patrol to come get them (they are usually hurt, etc) but sometimes they just come to cause problems. Break the gates, fence, rob the out buildings, etc. And I really fear the day when a big drug shipment comes through the property.
So while its easy to make up an imagionary situation, the reality of what I actually have to deal with makes the problem something much closer to home. How would you feel if you knew that the cartel thugs could kill you at any time....police cant stop it untill after you were dead???? Wouldnt you want some help? Maybe a fence, a wall, land mines, black ops going over the border to stop stuff before it starts....anything that could actually help. When it comes to my personal saftey, i am open to lots of things.

ok, off my soapbox.

Maybe we could stop the illegal gun traffic that goes from North to South across the border. Illegal gun dealers in the U.S. are making a killing supplying the drug cartels with the weaponry from which their might is derived. Maybe we could pass and enforce laws that make it harder to hire illegal aliens. Factory farmers as far north as Wisconsin rely on the migratory labor of illegal aliens, and yet those "farmers" also rely on huge government subsidies. Seems like we have some leverage there.

Maybe a wall, some landmines and a border patrol would deter some migrant laborers from crossing the border, but an effective wall with border guard is like the pie-in-the-sky-missile-defense-shield: super expensive (the guard's weekly payroll alone would kill us). And do you really want to pepper the border with landmines??

I understand the fear and frustration one experiences when your personal safety is at risk and I sympathize. I understand the need for a solution. The effective solutions are always the ones that address the root causes and not the symptoms.

Surely this whole situation got out of hand because violence became the way in which groups react to each other: gang -vs- gang, govt-vs-gang etc: the bogey for the US is a complete refusal to debate the legalization of 'drugs' meaning the ones that so many Americans insist they need for a good night out at the weekend: eg cocaine. Exporting the violence to the USA would only underline the futility of drugs policy; as for the corruption in the Mexican police and local government which enabled the cartels to build their mini-empires...its grim, but its not without solutions -non-violent, policy-oriented, etc. Or you people could just stop snorting, that would really hit them where it hurts -in their pockets...

It's a pretty easy picture to see. If anybody treated us the way we've treated the developing world, there'd be a major hue & cry to "nuke the bastards!". The hegemony is going away. I say good riddence. Maintaining it is more trouble than it's worth. We should get out of the war mentality alrogether. It accomplishes nothing & runs up debt with no return.

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Originally Posted by Brandi Boots

While i understand the point you are making, I have to say the reality is different. As a gurl that lives close to this situation physically (even have a 2nd house/land about 17miles from the border itself) you can not imagine the fear that i feel when a group of illegal aliens comes up to my property. Most of the time, they just want some water or for me to call the border patrol to come get them (they are usually hurt, etc) but sometimes they just come to cause problems. Break the gates, fence, rob the out buildings, etc. And I really fear the day when a big drug shipment comes through the property.
So while its easy to make up an imagionary situation, the reality of what I actually have to deal with makes the problem something much closer to home. How would you feel if you knew that the cartel thugs could kill you at any time....police cant stop it untill after you were dead???? Wouldnt you want some help? Maybe a fence, a wall, land mines, black ops going over the border to stop stuff before it starts....anything that could actually help. When it comes to my personal saftey, i am open to lots of things.

ok, off my soapbox.

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Your in a real situation. You have my sympathy. It certainly needs to be addressed. I would say, a fence and stronger border patrols are answers.

My imaginary situation was really about unmaned drones, that we use in Pakistan. They cost 1 million apiece. Several times I have heard them killing innocent people, and also a little about the anger it caused. The practice seems counter-productive to me creating more enemies, than it kills.

I saw a vid a couple of years ago, of some land combat robots. They looked a lot like some of the Star Wars creations, the little woks were fighting. But in a border patrol situation seems to me they have a hard time distiguishing between friendly and un friendly targets.

Thanks for responding Brandi. Whatever is done to address the issues there, we would assume that they would not put the lives of people who live there in further danger.