http://amygdalagf.blogspot.com/2009/...torturers.html
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There's a line that shouldn't be crossed. I'm not sure I can define it, but I know it when I see it. So does everybody else. In all situations where there's a potential for tension, there's always a line & we always know when we've crossed it, even if we don't see it until it's too late.
The real point is that we're Americans. We're supposed to stand for something. It's the other guys who are supposed to be the paranoid reactionaries. We're the ones who the rest of the world is supposed to want to emulate. Regardless of anybody's personal feelings toward anyone else, & regardless of what anyone else has ever done, we can't afford to cross the line & convince the rest of the world that we're just another gang of imperial thugs.
Ah the hell with that. If these guys are in fact conspirators against this country then use whatever method necessary to keep us safe.
What if it's not a fact? What if it's speculation, guesswork or a hunch? What if one of these guys is there because a warlord who doesn't like him turned him in for the five grand award? The whole point of due process is to ascertain the facts. With no due process, there are no facts.Quote:
If these guys are in fact conspirators against this country...
"Was harsh interrogation torture?" Some of it definitely was and is. It seems ridiculous to me that there should be this gray area between what is and what isn't torture. If there's any doubt about whether some procedure is torture, then it is.
Wow Tish, your tone has changed a lot over the past year.
Maybe you’re being facetious…maybe not. If my tone has changed, I haven’t noticed. I hope its change you can believe in. But seriously, I believe I’ve always stood against torture [except in sex play :wink: ] and for due process. Perhaps it’s just my tone and not my positions. In any case we all evolve and grow. Thanks for noticing. 8)Quote:
Originally Posted by El Nino
Yeah well... Torture doesn't work. It's an inefficient mathod of gaining incormation, so even if anyone thinks they can justify its use, they still can't use results as part of that justification. Use of torture is just a recruitment tool for one's enemies. It doesn't keep you safe. It paints a target on you. Respect is the best shield. You can't gain that by force.Quote:
Originally Posted by Silcc69
There you go again my man. This is another terrible statement. There are a couple of reasons why you can't do this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Silcc69
For one it's a violation of international law. A law that we were involved with in its conception in the first place.
In addition to staining our reputation around the world as the leaders of the free world while openly committing and international crime, we are basically making the statement to the world that we don't give a fuck about them and there's nothing the can do about it because we're the Big Bad U.S.A... This is not the position that we want to be in.
Another thing this does is open up the possibility of our soldiers being tortured if and when any of them become P.O.W.'s and there really wouldn't be too much we could say about it.
Also you have to understand that if you can violate international law and our constitution under what the President deems a "Special Situation" then you're opening up the door for OUR constitutional rights to be taken away from us here. By giving a leader the power to violate the laws written in his or her country's constitution is opening up a can of worms that can be more easily opened by future leaders.
Plus, our government is well aware of the fact that there's a high likelihood that many of the men that we have illegally incarcerated are innocent.
Ah yes even more bollox that I would expect to be spouted on here. Torture isn't just an American invention you know.It isn't some kind of new method we have to extract intelligence. It has been used since time began.If it was so inefficient ,then why have countries even western civilised countries used it and are still using interrogation techniques that could be considered torture depending on how you consider the definition?Quote:
Originally Posted by hippifried
I tell you why ,because applying various amounts of physical and psychological pressure if done correctly can give you an enormous amount of human intel.The key is then analysing this intelligence to see how accurate any of it is.This should all be done by people with years of experience who have a clear set of guidelines on how to extract this intelligence.The problem was like much of the Bush administration it was done half arsed and sadly there were embarrassments.
Just because there are some high profile stories of American fuck ups in the media , so called experts who claim to be former 'interrogators' (often people who claim to be something they are not or exaggerate their involvement, people with poor performance/disciplinary records and psychological histories) which is then lapped up by the media doesn' tell you of the times it have saved lives or provided leads which has lead to arrests or the killings of some very naughty people.
Nice bit of moral equivalency. 'It's OK if it leads to positive results' is a poor way to judge something that is reprehensible to the civilized world.Quote:
Originally Posted by arnie666
We, the United States of America, have signed numerous international agreements vowing not to do exactly what we have been doing for the last 6 years. That John Yoo said it was technically outside the Geneva Conventions doesn't make it either legal or moral.
IMO, it cheapened us, endangered our soldiers now and in future conflicts and gave our enemies a recruiting tool all for questionable intelligence.