Pulse Nightclub in Orlando Attack

[Stavros]

The BBC and other media are reporting an attack by a gunman on the Pulse Nightclub in Orlando, Florida who has barricaded himself in the club with hostages. As this club is popular with transgendered people I hope none of our friends have been affected by the incident and that the casualties are minimal. The Guardian report is here followed by a direct link to the club's website.
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jun/12/orlando-shooting-nightclub-pulse-gunman

http://www.pulseorlandoclub.com/

[sean1916]

Apparently the shooter is dead now

[tacocorp]

More than 20 people have been shot, it said on the news, very sad event again.

[JohnnyWalkerBlackLabel]

Very sad,

prayers go out to the families

[CoolAwesomeBXDude]

that was crazy because orlando just had a shooting on saturday too.

[JohnnyWalkerBlackLabel]

that was crazy because orlando just had a shooting on saturday too.

shooter's name was Omar Mateen, google images has pics of him in 2 NYPD shirts, not that it means anything but someone will rip into the dept. about that Im sure

[LI SEAN08]

Update is now over 50 dead and over 50 wounded!!!

[GroobySteven]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CkwuvOHXIAAi9f7.jpg

[JohnnyWalkerBlackLabel]

Just heard one of the NYC girls made it our safely. She was scheduled to perform there last night.

[bsting]

More death from the religion of peace and open borders policy. So tragic.

[nitron]

I'm surprised this didn't happen sooner .It's a rude wake up call ,it's our turn now. My condolences....

[trish]

A truly horrible slaughter. I'm still in shock. I do hope all of my friends here and all of your friends are safe. My heart goes out to those who have been murdered, injured or traumatized.

Omar Mateen is an U.S. born citizen. His parents were born in Afghanistan. He may have had issues with sexual orientation. He may have had connections with ISIS. No one is sure of anything at this point in time, except that he was alone and armed with an assault weapon.

[flabbybody]

Just heard one of the NYC girls made it our safely. She was scheduled to perform there last night.
she's got lots of YouTube's from her escuelita shows941835

[broncofan]

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/06/12/omar-mateen-id-d-as-orlando-killer.html

It appears that the shooter pledged allegiance to ISIS. I don't know what else motivated him but the murder of people at a gay nightclub is consistent with ISIS' worldview (not exclusively ISIS but we've all heard the gruesome stories of ISIS pushing gay men off of buildings). Still waiting for more information.

Sympathy goes out to the victims and their loved ones.

[trish]

The article says he has no direct links to ISIS although the FBI was interested in him (I presume his online activities indicated sympathy with ISIS). Omar's father says, "the sight of two men kissing angered" his son.

[broncofan]

The article says he has no direct links to ISIS although the FBI was interested in him (I presume his online activities indicated sympathy with ISIS). Omar's father says, "the sight of two men kissing angered" his son.
No harm has ever come from waiting for all information to come in, because the tragedy is the same regardless of motive. He may have had many contributing motives, including very relevant personality and psychological factors.

[sean1916]

Sky news has said ISIS have claimed responsibility.

[trish]

Just seen CBS reporting the same on twitter. ISIS is claiming Omar is one of their 'soldiers'.

[flabbybody]

Just seen CBS reporting the same on twitter. ISIS is claiming Omar is one of their 'soldiers'.
Claiming responsibility is such a source of pride for ISIS. What a bunch of sick fucks

[trish]

It's never clear what "claiming responsibility" means: directing? egging on? applauding? Or just a desire to fuck with our general election?

[sean1916]

It's never clear what "claiming responsibility" means: directing? egging on? applauding? Or just a desire to fuck with our general election?

There are clear protocols for claiming responsibility. It is know and recognised by intelligence groups. There is a verification.

[trish]

ISIS is making the claim at the moment and I'm not impressed with their adherence to 'protocols'. I expect shortly the FBI or other Federal authority will confirm the claim. Confirmed or not, ISIS is happy for the chance to play with our internal politics.

[broncofan]

Like Trish I'm waiting to hear confirmation that ISIS knew in advance let alone coordinated it. ISIS' word means nothing. It is possible that shooter was an ISIS supporter based on online propaganda without ISIS knowing of his existence until the atrocity. Such a volatile topic I'm gonna wait until at least tomorrow to say anything more. Very sad.

[sean1916]

ISIS is making the claim at the moment and I'm not impressed with their adherence to 'protocols'. I expect shortly the FBI or other Federal authority will confirm the claim. Confirmed or not, ISIS is happy for the chance to play with our internal politics.

In my opinion, which means nothing in this situation. I think the shooter was a sympathiser for ISIS. ISIS then claimed responsibility. Trish, I assure you there are clear protocols for claiming responsibility.

This is the biggest mass murder in US history, I am not surprised in the slightest that ISIS have claimed responsibility. Its a shit state of afiars. Prayer are with the fallen.

[sean1916]

Like Trish I'm waiting to hear confirmation that ISIS knew in advance let alone coordinated it. ISIS' word means nothing. It is possible that shooter was an ISIS supporter based on online propaganda without ISIS knowing of his existence until the atrocity. Such a volatile topic I'm gonna wait until at least tomorrow to say anything more. Very sad.

There are clear channels for taking responsibility. Evidently that is what happened. Keep in mind how adventagous this could be for ISIS to claim. I have no idea if there was collusion with ISIS (in my heart I doubt it) but there are very clear ways to claim responsibility. There are protocols.

[broncofan]

Trish, I assure you there are clear protocols for claiming responsibility.

I know it's your conversation but I'm just not sure what this means. Does it mean that all terrorist organizations follow some external guide and will not claim responsibility unless they meet those guidelines? What are these guidelines and why are they so sanctified that a group that murders people without qualms would not claim responsibility whenever it suited their agenda?

[broncofan]

There are clear channels for taking responsibility. Evidently that is what happened.
You're saying it's been confirmed that they claimed responsibility I take it. Not that their claiming responsibility has a fixed meaning (ie. that they actually were involved operationally or offered guidance to the shooter).

[sean1916]

You're saying it's been confirmed that they claimed responsibility I take it. Not that their claiming responsibility has a fixed meaning.

It has been confirmed that they have claimed responsibility. There are fact checks before these things are reported. With SKY, CNN, confirming. I can only assume the fact checks were completed.

[sean1916]

You're saying it's been confirmed that they claimed responsibility I take it. Not that their claiming responsibility has a fixed meaning.
Also broncofan, its not me saying this, it the news Sky, CNN, and others. I was just talking about a protocol for taking responsibility (it exist, and has for a very long time.)

[Yvonne183]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBlwxqqAprQ

[sean1916]

I know it's your conversation but I'm just not sure what this means. Does it mean that all terrorist organizations follow some external guide and will not claim responsibility unless they meet those guidelines? What are these guidelines and why are they so sanctified that a group that murders people without qualms would not claim responsibility whenever it suited their agenda?

Its not really like that. Think of it this way.. If you were part a group with a political agendanand resorted to violence, would you want random nutters causing violence in your name....? Let's say a school.. Killing children. You would not. If you research it you will understand what i am saying.

Please understand, I am not playing clever dick here. I was just stating that there are protocols.

[BCboyCOMINGatYA!]

ISIS is making the claim at the moment and I'm not impressed with their adherence to 'protocols'. I expect shortly the FBI or other Federal authority will confirm the claim. Confirmed or not, ISIS is happy for the chance to play with our internal politics.

Guy was already on an fbi watch list.

[SXFX]

funny fact...did you know you can be on the terrorist watch list / no fly list but they can't transfer that info to the local police department where you submit for your fire arms permit? how messed up is that! the FBI can know you are whacked out of your mind but can't tell the local PD!

[trish]

Guy was already on an fbi watch list.Yes, I already mentioned he was on the FBI's radar (presumably for his online activity).


In my opinion, which means nothing in this situation. I think the shooter was a sympathiser for ISIS. ISIS then claimed responsibility. ... That is a distinct possibility, which raises the question I asked before, “What does responsibility mean?” Was Omar acting independently? If so was it driven by religion, hatred of gays, self-hatred, or all three. Was he being egged on by or directed by ISIS?

At this point I know as little as anyone else. I’m inclined to think he was a self-hating gay who was being played by online fundamentalist groups - perhaps ISIS.

My immediate concern is for my friends, acquaintances and others who are immediately impacted by this horrid tragedy. I’m literally sick.

My secondary concern is the larger impact this is going to have on our LGBT community, the Muslim community and the larger populace. If we respond with undirected hatred we are only inviting more of the same. If the West rejects Islam without reservation, it will only alienate and create more deeply troubled young men and drive them to violence.

If the FBI actually knew this guy needed help, they probably should've intervened, or at least made sure he wasn't able to obtain an assault weapon.

[sean1916]

funny fact...did you know you can be on the terrorist watch list / no fly list but they can't transfer that info to the local police department where you submit for your fire arms permit? how messed up is that! the FBI can know you are whacked out of your mind but can't tell the local PD!
No surprise really. One group doesn't want the other to know (various reasons) its also political. Rewards come with big prosecutions.

Dog eat dog

[sean1916]

Yes, I already mentioned he was on the FBI's radar (presumably for his online activity).

That is a distinct possibility, which raises the question I asked before, “What does responsibility mean?” Was Omar acting independently? If so was it driven by religion, hatred of gays, self-hatred, or all three. Was he being egged on by or directed by ISIS?

At this point I know as little as anyone else. I’m inclined to think he was a self-hating gay who was being played by online fundamentalist groups - perhaps ISIS.

My immediate concern is for my friends, acquaintances and others who are immediately impacted by this horrid tragedy. I’m literally sick.

My secondary concern is the larger impact this is going to have on our LGBT community, the Muslim community and the larger populace. If we respond with undirected hatred we are only inviting more of the same. If the West rejects Islam without reservation, it will only alienate and create more deeply troubled young men and drive them to violence.

If the FBI actually knew this guy needed help, they probably should've intervened, or at least made sure he wasn't able to obtain an assault weapon.

Your heart is right. I feel the same. Politics are at play. The shooter commited no crime not allow him weapons (there can be an endless debate over that) end of the day he did,

I personally don't believe he was directly link from a tactical point of view. It may be the case from an ideological point of view. End of the day people are dead. 50 people, and I believe the number will rise by the morn.

Today is a new day. If an enemy announce itself in todays world.,,, then we should not ignore.

But another important thing is .. Let's not forget to love each other and support each other in this time of desperation.

Fuck him

Love you all

[fred41]

Fuck him

Love you all

Yeah,...me too.

[sean1916]

Yeah,...me too.

We are all in this together. God bless us all, let love each other. It's simple

[blackchubby38]

RIP to the 50.

Thoughts and best wishes to the survivors.

[JohnnyWalkerBlackLabel]

Please don't think this was spur of the moment...................................

Omar's pops
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/father-omar-mateen-hosts-bizarre-anti-us-talk-show-article-1.2670939?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+NydnRss+%28Top+Stories+-+NY+Daily+News%29

[SXFX]

No surprise really. One group doesn't want the other to know (various reasons) its also political. Rewards come with big prosecutions.

Dog eat dog

actually it's the NRA that won't let the FBI share info with the local PD......soooooo?

[ohiodick]

And the law makers that are VOTED into office. They passed a law that makes it OK for people, even know terrorists to get and own guns. Thanks to the NRA money.

[BLKGSXR]

Sad occurrence, unfortunately too many innocent souls were lost. Waking up to this on the TV got me to thinking why can't people just live and let live...

[makerandmodder]

Condolences, sympathies and respect from the eastern side of the Atlantic to everyone involved in this madness.

:sadcry

[sassygirl]

There is evil in the world.it isn't the fault of the NRA it is the fault of a false religion that gets a pass from our political leader. As a free society it falls on us to protect ourselves. This evil false religion throws Gay and Trans People off roofs in other countries.it will continue until we wake up and understand that the right to use any bathroom or marry mean nothing if our leader refuses to be diligent in keeping us safe. There are bigger issues to deal with in our country,everyone wants change now and we are accepting great risks as a result. Anyone that would take your right to protect yourself is EVIL pure and simple. Free Healthcare and all the rest is worthless if it comes at this price.I've never seen a Christian go in and murder masses of people.they have their beliefs and they are no threat to us.

[sean1916]

There is evil in the world.it isn't the fault of the NRA it is the fault of a false religion that gets a pass from our political leader. As a free society it falls on us to protect ourselves. This evil false religion throws Gay and Trans People off roofs in other countries.it will continue until we wake up and understand that the right to use any bathroom or marry mean nothing if our leader refuses to be diligent in keeping us safe. There are bigger issues to deal with in our country,everyone wants change now and we are accepting great risks as a result. Anyone that would take your right to protect yourself is EVIL pure and simple. Free Healthcare and all the rest is worthless if it comes at this price.I've never seen a Christian go in and murder masses of people.they have their beliefs and they are no threat to us.

I appreciate the comments and emotions. Christians have done many things. I would suggest that its not the time to divide, this was a mad man. Islam will denounce him.. ISIS have embrassed him. The old adage "divide and conquer". This was not representative of an religion. This was the actions of a very sick man who stole many.. Too many innocent lives.

Its bad I know, cooler heads should prevale. We would be no different than him if we started a hate campaign.

[dj3131]

Lots and lots of domestic "christians" that want to attack gays. Some of them have even praised this attack.

The problem -is- religion, not which religion.

[martin48]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/donald-trump-orlando_us_575d92e6e4b0e39a28addbe6

[scroller]

There is evil in the world.it isn't the fault of the NRA it is the fault of a false religion that gets a pass from our political leader.... I've never seen a Christian go in and murder masses of people.they have their beliefs and they are no threat to us.

Everything you just said is patently false. You need to get your head in reality ASAP. Just for starters:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_terrorism

[sean1916]

Everything you just said is patently false. You need to get your head in reality ASAP. Just for starters:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_terrorism

Mate, I believe this was a knee jerk reaction. I assume based on emotion. I agree it is factually incorrect.

[Wendy Summers]

The problem -is- religion, not which religion.

To be fair, this isn't true either. Religion is like alcohol... in moderation it can actually be a very positive thing. Spirituality can be a good influence on people. But when someone uses it to mask or redirect their own hurt or problems rather than dealing with those emotional issues directly, we see religion twisted. When someone uses the guise of religion to control other's behavior and thinking, subverting the core tenants of the faith, we see religion twisted. Basically religion itself in neutral... it's how people practice that faith which is either good or bad.

[sean1916]

There has been enough suffering, no need for a silly Internet argument that will solve nothing. Its a better idea at this time to love and support each other. Peace

[tacocorp]

I guess I should not be surprised about this, but reading the local news site comments.... well, let's just say if these people mean what they type, they are some cold cold ones without a single ounce of compassion.. to put it mildly.

[Stavros]

The difference between 'Pray away the gay' and 'Slay away the gay' is a bullet -both are based on the view that same-sex relations are wrong and something can and must be done about them- and I feel that the US must make tough decisions about gun control or these massacres will continue to happen, whether the motive is paranoia, resentment, political, or the desire on the shooter's part to experience the apocalypse for real, taking as many innocent people with him as he can. The focus now returns to Congress, but if nothing was done when those children were slaughtered in Connecticut what hope is there that Orlando will make a difference?

From The Guardian this morning:
New York City’s police commissioner, Bill Bratton, fiercely criticized the National Rifle Association, the most powerful gun lobby in the country, that has campaigned to prevent people named on the US government no-fly list from being barred from purchasing guns.

“The idea we have a terror-watch list, a no-fly list, and someone on that list can buy a gun – that’s the highest level of insanity,” Bratton told CNN. He added that the probe into the Orlando shooter would have to take in whether “there was anything from the FBI investigations that might have stopped him being able to acquire a firearm. I don’t hold out much hope for that: obviously the United States is too afraid of the NRA at this time.”



http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jun/13/orlando-nightclub-massacre-suspect-fbi-guns-buy

How they got their guns -from the New York Times -
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/10/03/us/how-mass-shooters-got-their-guns.html?_r=0

[melody mayheim]

I cant stop watching...or crying

[trish]

I’m writing through tears of relief. My two dear colleagues who had been vacationing in Florida and planned to do some clubbing (as well as camping, canoeing, sight seeing etc.) called to say they spent an extra day in Augustine and hadn’t yet made to Orlando. Yet still, thinking of what happened last night at the Pulse makes me queasy and sick. I know my condolences don’t mean shit to those who lost loved ones there, but I post my condolences anyway. I’m so sorry for your pain.

This morning the story is beginning to gel. The shooter was Omar Mateen. He was 29 and an American citizen by birth. His parents were born in Afghanistan. As of this moment the FBI believes Omar Mateen to be a lone wolf inspired by ISIS propaganda. CBS seems to confirm the story (Johnny Walker posted here last night) that his father has anti-American and homophobic views.

Clearly there is evil in this world. But it is not the Muslim religion, the Christian religion nor religion in general (I say this even though I do not personally subscribe to any religious worldview). Hatred, bigotry, ignorance and intolerance generalized and applied indiscriminately against the innocent is the evil we face. Omar Mateen was filled with it. Yet hatred, bigotry, ignorance and intolerance is threatening to devour us too. Reacting callously against all Muslims will only strengthen ISIS, create more lone wolves and compound the violence.

Certainly this tragedy is not an excuse (as some here seem to suggest) to drop our fight for basic human rights here in the U.S.: the right to use the restroom appropriate to our gender identity, the right to be served in the same manner as anyone else in a business establishment or an office of a state or municipal institution. If we give up, the bigots win.

Should it be an excuse to pass more secure firearm regulations? One sick man with a single assault weapon and a handgun just killed forty nine of our fellow travelers and injured fifty-three more, most of them critically. Certainly there is reason enough to reconsider the issue.

[flabbybody]

Don't all clubs have door security that pat patrons down before entering?
How did the shooter get in with an AK-15?
btw, the Orlando weapon is banned in the UK for all 942169non-military and LE personnel.

[bruce_willy]

You are now being faced with a stark choice, no running away from this.

Islam is not compatible with the liberal western society.

If you want to keep the advances that have been made for the LGBT community then the Islamics need to stay in their own countries.

[sassygirl]

No ,your the one that's wrong.and your view of the world is the cause of this.burying your head in the sand and thinking nice thoughts get us nowhere.these people are idealogs with a twisted perverse view of civilization.if they didn't have guns it would be bombs and if not bombs knives.how many Christians have you heard of beheading people in the last 300 years? If your hatred for God is that intense I ask you why do you hate something you don't believe in? The Bible teaches love and acceptance not hate. The kuran teaches hate and the infidels that don't convert should be killed ,read it.no I'm not the one that's wrong here.if 1 person would have had their own gun there in that bathroom lives could have very likely been saved. Those vermin will use any means they can think of.do I think all muslims are like that of course not.it isn't hate it's reality.

[bruce_willy]

Should it be an excuse to pass more secure firearm regulations? One sick man with a single assault weapon and a handgun just killed forty nine of our fellow travelers and injured fifty-three more, most of them critically. Certainly there is reason enough to reconsider the issue.

Gun control didn't stop them in Paris did it?

[DeezNuts515]

Don't all clubs have door security that pat patrons down before entering?
How did the shooter get in with an AK-15?
btw, the Orlando weapon is banned in the UK for all 942169non-military and LE personnel.

From what I understand, he rushed the doors at last call, and either killed the bouncers or they just didn't react.

My daughter is going on a trip with her mother and will be gone three weeks. I live in Orlando and was planning on hitting up Pulse or Parliament House during that time. Not anymore, I'm done with Downtown Orlando for good.

[fred41]

Nothing surprising here...predictably stereotypical:
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/orlando-shooter-reported-pulse-club-regular-patrons-article-1.2672445

[nysprod]

Gun control didn't stop them in Paris did it?

I can't stand these facile analogies because by extension it implies:

1. There should be no gun control because it won't 100% stop things like this from happening
2. There should be no laws, because people will still commit crime

[broncofan]

Nothing surprising here...predictably stereotypical:
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/orlando-shooter-reported-pulse-club-regular-patrons-article-1.2672445
The picture is certainly clearing up. Trish seemed to have a good handle on it almost right off the bat. I was convinced he was propagandized from online jihadist sites. It is quite possible that his father's homophobia strongly influenced his sense of shame and his decision to declare support for ISIS, which he thought somehow is a masculine act.

I'm pretty convinced that whoever it was that downvoted all of Trish's posts was probably upset that she wanted to be thoughtful and try to understand what was going on before forming conclusions (ahem dreamon: how's Cliven Bundy's federal prison loving ass?).:)

[thx1138]

Australia confiscates guns http://www.vox.com/2015/8/27/9212725/australia-buyback Something to think about.

[Stavros]

And now this:
The gunman who killed 49 people in an attack on a gay nightclub in Orlando is said to have been a regular at the venue and had messaged several people on gay dating apps.

Read more-
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jun/14/orlando-shooter-omar-mateen-was-a-regular-at-nightclub

[fred41]

The picture is certainly clearing up. Trish seemed to have a good handle on it almost right off the bat. I was convinced he was propagandized from online jihadist sites. It is quite possible that his father's homophobia strongly influenced his sense of shame and his decision to declare support for ISIS, which he thought somehow is a masculine act.


Studies indicate that this is often the case:
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/07/17/study-homophobia-homosexual_n_7816390.html

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/homophobes-might-be-hidden-homosexuals/

I wouldn't be surprised if this doesn't constitute a disproportionate amount of people drawn to jihadist organizations...(right along side of Mysoginists who have a problem getting laid in the usual conventional fashion and blame it on women)

[up_for_it]

I can't stand these facile analogies because by extension it implies:

1. There should be no gun control because it won't 100% stop things like this from happening
2. There should be no laws, because people will still commit crime

Thank you.

[bruce_willy]

Pink Pistols urges gays to arm themselves: ‘Guns did not do this, a human being did’

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/jun/13/pink-pistols-urges-gays-to-arm-themselves-guns-did/

[bruce_willy]

No guns involved in this Islamic attack.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jo5MilvEVmk

[xuto]

Saddened at the many who lost loved ones.

[MrFanti]

Guns are not the problem - attitudes are.
How long will it be before London's Islamic Mayor institutes some type of an anti-LGBT law?
-> http://dailycaller.com/2016/06/13/londons-muslim-mayor-bans-sexy-women-in-advertisements/

[here4dafun]

Australia confiscates guns http://www.vox.com/2015/8/27/9212725/australia-buyback Something to think about.

They confiscated firearms years ago... now only criminals have them. Gun crimes might have gone down, but violent crimes did not. Australia and Britain have a weird way of construing their "crime rates" to hide the increase in knife/etc related violent crimes. Guns are not the issue. The shooter passed multiple background checks. The no-fly/terrorist watch list is an unconstitutional list, it requires NO due-process and ANYBODY, even a child can end up on that list. The club was a gun-free zone, just like the last 3+ shootings across the nation.

More laws don't, and won't do anything. It's truly saddening what happened, but to parade on the bodies of those who died that night in an effort to pass more "gun control" is sickening, and a slap in the face to those who died.

[giovanni_hotel]

They confiscated firearms years ago... now only criminals have them. Gun crimes might have gone down, but violent crimes did not. Australia and Britain have a weird way of construing their "crime rates" to hide the increase in knife/etc related violent crimes. Guns are not the issue. The shooter passed multiple background checks. The no-fly/terrorist watch list is an unconstitutional list, it requires NO due-process and ANYBODY, even a child can end up on that list. The club was a gun-free zone, just like the last 3+ shootings across the nation.

More laws don't, and won't do anything. It's truly saddening what happened, but to parade on the bodies of those who died that night in an effort to pass more "gun control" is sickening, and a slap in the face to those who died.

There is no PERFECT solution.

But we sure can do a helluva lot better.

We need to reinstate the assault weapons ban enacted under Bill Clinton.
Civilians do not need this kind of firepower for personal use.

The AR-15 nearly wiped out an entire elementary school in Connecticut and critically wounded or murdered over 100 clubgoers in less than 5 minutes in Orlando.

The guns ARE the problem.

I hate with a passion whenever pro gun rights activists point to any and all exceptions as justification to do nothing.
The asshole in Orlando may not have been caught with background checks, but Cho at Va Tech and Adam Lanza would have.

The status quo simply is not satisfactory.
Americans have a perverse fetishization of firearms.


You want a gun for personal protection???
Buy a 9mm and keep it moving.

[MrFanti]

The guns ARE the problem.



No, attitudes and beliefs are the problem.
A French police officer was stabbed to death by a Muslim terrorist.

The French police officer died because of an attitude and belief - not because of the knife.

[fred41]

Guns are not the problem - attitudes are.
How long will it be before London's Islamic Mayor institutes some type of an anti-LGBT law?
-> http://dailycaller.com/2016/06/13/londons-muslim-mayor-bans-sexy-women-in-advertisements/

I only know about Sadiq Khan from what I've read in papers and on the internet...and from what I've read, I doubt that was the intent of the ban.
...but his 'body shaming' explanation still reeks of nanny state paternalism...

[javier81]

Do people not realize that AR-15s and their variants were legal to own and buy under the Brady bill? So, reinstate what? Magazine capacity limitations and barrel lengths of 16" or more?

[JohnnyWalkerBlackLabel]

The weapons AND the attitude are the problem.
A gun was used in that club, it could have very well been this mentally ill fucker driving a semi through the front doors, or planting c4 in the ventilation room, a few cans of gasoline properly placed with a timer, or a pressure cooker like those idiots used in the Boston Marathon incident.
We do need better gun laws, but let's not act like guns are the main reason for this, Mateen was a twisted individual, his wife is a twisted individual, and his father is a nutjob that loves the taliban.......
The feds had this weirdo on their watch list and didn't watch him close enough (which makes you wonder how many weirdos in Orlando are on the FBI watchlist)
Facebook deleted a post he uploaded right before he went on this rampage (guess that rules out the government coercing with Fb theory)
my point is there were several warning signs and people didn't react to them, and this is the brutal end result

[Stavros]

I only know about Sadiq Khan from what I've read in papers and on the internet...and from what I've read, I doubt that was the intent of the ban.
...but his 'body shaming' explanation still reeks of nanny state paternalism...

Or it could reflect the more important component of public opinion which does not want to see images of semi-naked women on London Transport buses and trains...there are many ways of advertising a product, you don't need to undress a woman to do it.

[Stavros]

You are now being faced with a stark choice, no running away from this.
Islam is not compatible with the liberal western society.
If you want to keep the advances that have been made for the LGBT community then the Islamics need to stay in their own countries.

So Muhamamd Ali was not 'the Greatest' after all, and should really have gone to live in Africa?

[Stavros]

Guns are not the problem - attitudes are.
How long will it be before London's Islamic Mayor institutes some type of an anti-LGBT law?


London has a Labour Mayor, not an Islamic Mayor.

[fred41]

Or it could reflect the more important component of public opinion which does not want to see images of semi-naked women on London Transport buses and trains...there are many ways of advertising a product, you don't need to undress a woman to do it.

That is not the explanation he gives:
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/15/world/europe/london-bans-ads-with-unrealistic-body-images.html?_r=0

http://www.theguardian.com/media/2016/jun/13/sadiq-khan-moves-to-ban-body-shaming-ads-from-london-transport (http://www.theguardian.com/media/2016/jun/13/sadiq-khan-moves-to-ban-body-shaming-ads-from-london-transport)

He states he is against 'body shaming' ads that give young girls unrealistic expectations about women's bodies.

It would be even more ridiculous for a liberal city like London to start banning any ads because people are wearing bathing suits. I don't know much about London , but I doubt people using public transportation are that prudish. What would be next?

But as I've stated before, I would be in disagreement for either reason if our mayor did that in NYC ...and I don't think women need that type of intervention by the government either...what's next , bubble wrap everyone and only play soothing music over loudspeakers?

[Stavros]

I do not live in London so some of the detail escapes me but I agree that 'body shaming' ads should be banned from London Transport buses and trains, it is not as if the companies selling their gear cannot advertise it elsewhere in London. The UK and London in particular already has a high reputation for the quality of its advertising, it cannot be beyond those marketing genii to produce material that does cause offence.

[giovanni_hotel]

You are now being faced with a stark choice, no running away from this.

Islam is not compatible with the liberal western society.

If you want to keep the advances that have been made for the LGBT community then the Islamics need to stay in their own countries.


Idiocy.

The oldest and most established Muslim community in the U.S. is in Dearborn, Michigan and not ONE Muslim American from there has ever committed any kind of radicalized attack against U.S. citizens.

[MrFanti]

my point is there were several warning signs and people didn't react to them, and this is the brutal end result[/B][/COLOR]

And those warning signs were attitudes and beliefs...

[MrFanti]

London has a Labour Mayor, not an Islamic Mayor.

The Mayor of London is Muslim


he city's first ethnic minority mayor, and the first Muslim to become mayor of a major Western capital

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sadiq_Khan

[dc_guy_75]

It's only a matter of time, and it will be a "2nd generation" Muslim that carries out an attack, like Ft. Hood, Boston Bombers, Paris, Orlando etc.

For a community <2% of the American population, they commit terrorism at a very high-rate.

But we shouldn't talk about, it'll just drive even more Muslims to become terrorists, right?

Regardless, Islam has no place in Western societies, and it shouldn't have any place on this Earth. Fuck that religion and the people who follow such a backwards, savage religion.

[Castor_Troy05]

All religions are backwards and savage, they all have extremists. No religion should have place in any society.

Im pretty sure more Americans are killed by other Americans than by Muslims. Yes the extremists are the current "bad guys" but if the entire group of followers, wanted you dead, you'd be dead already.

[Chaos]

I was in Orlando when this happened...All I can really say is that a lot of people came together to help and that was beautiful.
The thing that pisses me off is hearing all the signs that were prevalent but ignored by so many,and how LOUD the voices were (just out and about during my vacation) AGAINST the victims of this...I got in several arguments the day after and in subsequent days...even with my own friends...(they're not friends anymore). It's sad that there can be a double standard so VILE where it's ok for me to have the lifestyle I do,but when something like this happens they immediately victim shame and then turn and say "Oh but you're fine,you've only ever dated real girls...you've never touched one of them." It makes me mad that we still can't just see people,there has to be arbitrary labels for everything. Maybe it's because I'm one of the ones with a label (Mentally Ill)...maybe it's because of friends here and on other sites,or maybe,just maybe,it's because of all of that...and because no one's picture should be painted for them by someone who feels nothing but prejudice...

I don't know if I made any point...I don't know if I even made sense to anyone...Remember...I'm "Mentally Ill"....not "Chuck Adams" or "Chaos"....to most of the world.....I'll just be over here,swept under the rug with every other group they ignore until it's convenient or attack worthy...sigh. They keep telling me it gets worse before it gets better....I've seen a HELL of a lot of worse...and almost ZERO better...

[Stavros]

The Mayor of London is Muslim

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sadiq_Khan

Indeed, but he is not an 'Islamic' Mayor as he represents the Labour Party not some Islamic party. Nobody ever said Mrs Thatcher was a feminist Prime Minister even though she was a woman. Anne Hidalgo is the Socialist Mayor of Paris, not the Gay Mayor of Paris.

[giovanni_hotel]

It's only a matter of time, and it will be a "2nd generation" Muslim that carries out an attack, like Ft. Hood, Boston Bombers, Paris, Orlando etc.

For a community <2% of the American population, they commit terrorism at a very high-rate.

But we shouldn't talk about, it'll just drive even more Muslims to become terrorists, right?

Regardless, Islam has no place in Western societies, and it shouldn't have any place on this Earth. Fuck that religion and the people who follow such a backwards, savage religion.

Terrorism is a relative term.
Every time this country goes on a pointless military excursion in the Middle East, the civilians of the country we are bombing must see the U.S. military as alpha terrorists.

As for 2nd generation Muslims, we have 2nd and 3rd generations already here who never have committed a single terrorist attack.

If all Muslims were potential terrorists, this country would be burning down.
It's no different than blaming Christianity for the idiots who bomb abortion clinics, except no one ever puts the blame at the feet of Christianity.

However every psycho who bombs an abortion clinic deeply believes they are following the dictates of their religious beliefs.

You can't allow fanatics to define the totality of an entire faith.

[trish]

It's no different than blaming Christianity for the idiots who bomb abortion clinics, except no one ever puts the blame at the feet of Christianity.

However every psycho who bombs an abortion clinic deeply believes they are following the dictates of their religious beliefs.

You can't allow fanatics to define the totality of an entire faith.Exactly. Thank you.

Neither do we expect every Christian to know who the fanatics are and warn us of them. We do expect everyone to denounce the murder of innocent doctors and innocent club goers. Unfortunately that is not the case. Just Google Pastor Steven Anderson or Pastor Roger Jiminez. Both good Christian pastors are happy to applaud the murder of what they can only see as forty-nine pedophiles.

It does no good to demonize Jews, Christians nor Muslims. It does no good to demonize any religion. We live in a nation that is pledged to remain neutral with respect to religious belief and protect the religious practices of all. We have no religious tests, nor should we have.

Omar Mateen was born a U.S. citizen. Just like Donald Trump, neither of his parents were born citizens. If Omar is Afghani, then Donald is German. For years Omar has been plagued with questions about sexual orientation. He's been visiting the Pulse off and on for years. He used a gay dating app. My guess is his father's homophobia, and the homophobic thrust of Judeo-Christian-Islamic religious texts twisted him against himself. He was a self-hating, homophobic gay man. His grasp of Islamist radicalism was pretty pathetic. He seems to have had no idea of the distinctions between Sunni and Shia. He praised ISIS and Hezbollah which are of course sworn enemies of one another. One suspects the when he credited ISIS for his murders it was mere chance. He might've just as easily credited the Taliban, Al Qaeda or Hezbollah. He said what came into his head. Yes this was terrorism, but it was first and foremost a hate crime against Latinos and Gays. Stirring up hatred for Muslims is just so far wide of the mark it would be laughable were it not so sickening. We might ask ourselves, "Where - in this country - is the hatred of gays and Latinos coming from? Where is it loudest?" It's not primarily coming from the Muslim community, which remains, out of fear, relatively quiet on almost all issues.

We are told again and again that only a good guy with a gun can stop a bad guy with a gun. There were goods guys with guns at the Pulse. It took them three hours to put an end to the horror. We might ask ourselves, "Why do we let bad guys buy guns in the first place?"

[Jericho]

We are told again and again that only a good guy with a gun can stop a bad guy with a gun. There were goods guys with guns at the Pulse. It took them three hours to put an end to the horror. We might ask ourselves, "Why do we let bad guys buy guns in the first place?"

That's the problem, init.
We don't let bad guys buy guns, we let any guys buy guns.
('we' as in you...No fucker trust Brits to own guns...The Powers That Be know how fucked up we are)!!!

I'm sorry children, it's time for an adult to say "'NO"!

[MrFanti]

Indeed, but he is not an 'Islamic' Mayor as he represents the Labour Party not some Islamic party. Nobody ever said Mrs Thatcher was a feminist Prime Minister even though she was a woman. Anne Hidalgo is the Socialist Mayor of Paris, not the Gay Mayor of Paris.

Personal beliefs are often times, the inspiration for laws for those that have the power to establish them...

[trish]

Guns are not the problem - attitudes are.
How long will it be before London's Islamic Mayor institutes some type of an anti-LGBT law?
-> http://dailycaller.com/2016/06/13/londons-muslim-mayor-bans-sexy-women-in-advertisements/There is simply no indication that he has any intention to do so. Just stop with the dog whistle already. Sadiq Khan is a human rights lawyer, a feminist and a supporter of gay rights. He flew the rainbow flag over City Hall for God's sake.
http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2016/05/17/new-mayor-of-london-sadiq-khan-flies-rainbow-flag-from-city-hall/

[MrFanti]

There is simply no indication that he has any intention to do so. Just stop with the dog whistle already. Sadiq Khan is a human rights lawyer, a feminist and a supporter of gay rights. He flew the rainbow flag over City Hall for God's sake.
http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2016/05/17/new-mayor-of-london-sadiq-khan-flies-rainbow-flag-from-city-hall/

I hope to see you defend Christian mayors in the same way....

[here4dafun]

Except that Adam Lanza didn't buy his guns? An Ar-15 uses a NATO approved round. It is no more dangerous than a fucking 9mm, or a 12 gauge. Get the fuck over yourself.

ANY GUN can nearly wipe out a school of unarmed and defenseless CHILDREN. IF ONE of those teachers had been armed, it would have been another story. Stop listening to the media on how "dangerous" and powerful the AR-15 is. All those fucktards are the furthest thing from being knowledgeable about firearms and ammo.

We "Americans" do no have a perversion with firearms. We have a right to them, paid for in blood by thousands of men who gave their lives to make this country.

If you don't like it, go to fucking China where a man just killed 29 people with a KNIFE.

[trish]

The knife incident to which you refer happen two years ago in a Chinese train station. Twenty-nine people were killed by ten men armed with long knives. Not much need to own a long knife either. It’s not like people hunt bear with them. But as long as anyone can buy a Sig Sauer MCX, why would they bother with a long knife. Think how many kids ten guys can mow down with MCX’s. Awesome, right? In Newtown, twenty children were killed by a single teenager with an array of firearms. The same day as the Newtown incident, a man in Chenpeng Village stabbed twenty-three school children. None of them died.

Your argument is essentially, if one mentally troubled mass murderer didn’t buy his weapon ('cause his Mom did, even though she knew her son was unstable), we should just go ahead and sell military style assault weapons to everybody who wants one. Nobody gave their life to preserve that bizarre interpretation of the Second Amendment. Sane people will continue to lobby to limit the sell of these weapons. If you don’t like it, you can shoot us. It will only strengthen our argument.

BTW, if your gun dealer wants you to pay for his merchandise in blood, I’d advise you to make your purchase at a different establishment.

[giovanni_hotel]

Except that Adam Lanza didn't buy his guns? An Ar-15 uses a NATO approved round. It is no more dangerous than a fucking 9mm, or a 12 gauge. Get the fuck over yourself.

ANY GUN can nearly wipe out a school of unarmed and defenseless CHILDREN. IF ONE of those teachers had been armed, it would have been another story. Stop listening to the media on how "dangerous" and powerful the AR-15 is. All those fucktards are the furthest thing from being knowledgeable about firearms and ammo.

We "Americans" do no have a perversion with firearms. We have a right to them, paid for in blood by thousands of men who gave their lives to make this country.

If you don't like it, go to fucking China where a man just killed 29 people with a KNIFE.

Be serious.

The AR-15 is a mock up of the M-16, a semiautomatic weapon that can be easily modified to fire automatically.
Saying it fires a NATO approved round as if that affects the lethal potential of the cartridge is laughable.

The muzzle velocity of an AR-15 is nearly 3x greater than a 9mm glock, which makes the cartridge fired from an AR15 that much more deadly.

You wanna fire a weapon designed for the battlefield?? Go join the military.

The AR-15 would have been outlawed under the previous assault weapons ban, rightly so.
Your chances of surviving being shot by a 9mm handgun are several degrees greater than if you're shot by a .223 round from an AR15.

You don't mitigate the threat of firearms in the hands of deranged shooters by making sure more people have guns.
All you're really doing is increasing the likelihood of collateral damage.

Look at our allies and their view on a well armed civilian populace, then look at the United States.
We do indeed have an abnormal 'connection' to firearms, to the point where many gun enthusiasts become collectors and have more guns than they personally need.

Adam Lanza needed his MOTHER to buy his AR15 because he couldn't pass a background check.

Stop with this piss poor argument that if gun regulations can't stop EVERY single mass shooting, we're better off with no gun regulation at all.

A gun is not a vital appendage for day to day survival.
Imagine how you would feel about someone who never left the house without a machete in the trunk of his car and another sitting under the driver's seat, all for 'protection'.

Most of us IMO would think that individual has some emotional issues and extreme social anxiety.

I don't know when it happened but several generations of men in this country see their masculinity directly linked to their ability to own guns.

This needs to stop.
Men need to be able to validate their existence beyond their ability to efficiently end the life of another human being.

That's not freedom.
It's sociopathic.


As for your last phony fact, it was 10(!!) knife wielding attackers who killed 29 train passengers in China 2 years ago, not one killer.

Huge difference.

But why let facts get in the way when you're defending your right to own assault weapons.

[Ben in LA]

It's like talking to a brick wall.

[dc_guy_75]

While there are several million Muslims already in the US, there's no point in allowing any additional Muslims to settle here, the cultural differences create risks that are simply too great.

Example: I live in California, and I don't know of any immigrant group that clings to their native garb (like hijabs) as Muslims. If they wanted to fit in, they would dress like the natives. If they wanted to fit in, the would become fully secular, like most educated people in the US and Western Europe. If they wanted to fit in, they wouldn't send their kids (in such high numbers) to religious schools.

He need to further cut our ties with the Middle East, Arab Countries, and Muslims countries in general. Westerners shouldn;t travel to the Middle East, and Middle-Easterns shouldn't travel to the West.

Simply, we shouldn't be in contact with people who belong to such a barbaric/savage/backwards religion, and we sure as hell shouldn't allow them to live among us.

[Stavros]

He need to further cut our ties with the Middle East, Arab Countries, and Muslims countries in general. Westerners shouldn;t travel to the Middle East, and Middle-Easterns shouldn't travel to the West.

Osama bin Laden's dream lives on...

[dc_guy_75]

He need to further cut our ties with the Middle East, Arab Countries, and Muslims countries in general. Westerners shouldn;t travel to the Middle East, and Middle-Easterns shouldn't travel to the West.

Osama bin Laden's dream lives on...

If his dream was for Westerners to be aware of the cultural divide between the West and Muslims, its mission accomplished.

[Ben in LA]

I live in California, and I don't know of any immigrant group that clings to their native garb (like hijabs) as Muslims. If they wanted to fit in, they would dress like the natives. If they wanted to fit in, the would become fully secular, like most educated people in the US and Western Europe. If they wanted to fit in, they wouldn't send their kids (in such high numbers) to religious schools.
You obviously haven't been to the city of Artesia, where a lot of folks from India do business. Funny how many of them still wear their traditional dress and aren't Muslim.

And if a Catholic nun can be covered up (at her discretion), why can't Muslims?

It's amazing how last week we were mourning Muhammad Ali, a devout Muslim, and now we're back to bashing them again. America!

[trish]

I hope to see you defend Christian mayors in the same way....
I do applaud Mayor Buddy Dyer for setting up the OneOrlando fund and accepting contributions to it from the Council on American Islamic Relations. He did it as the Democratic Mayor of Orlando, but if you wish, it is also an act commensurate with his Christian faith just as the contribution from CAIR is a humane act commensurate with the Islamic faith.

[peacheater]

if a Catholic nun can be covered up (at her discretion), why can't Muslims?




I take it you've never seen a woman covered by full Hijab in a shopping mall while her husband wears jeans and a t-shirt? I agree that any religious based shame of women is stupid but to equate the covering of catholic nuns to the insane nature of the Islamic dress code for women is a wee bit regressive.

[fred41]

Lots of stuff in this thread to comment on.
(if some of this sounds loopy - I Just had an endoscopy done as routine procedure -and I'm still coming down from the drugs)
There is nothing wrong with weapons regulation.
I would never, ever be for getting rid of all guns, this is a rather large country and guns are an absolute necessity in some areas of the country for survival. Guns are also a necessity in some lines of work and people in need of protection, etc...but to be able to buy an assault rifle just because people think they are cool is ludicrous. If people want the absolute freedom to own these, then they are going to have to be willing to put up with some draconian practices in the future such as: all schools, clubs, malls,movie theaters, large office buildings...anywhere masses of people congregate will have magnetometers and a well trained and armed security staff.
The more powerful weapons you allow your citizens to own, the more powerful the weapons your policing organizations are going to need to carry.
I simply don't see the personal argument for owning one of them. Personally I know quite a few gun collectors. I can never get a realistic response from them as to why they need some of their high powered, over the top weapons, other than.."because the constitution allows it". But often they just come across as the type of collectors that cross the line into the hoarding category...and people like that can never be rationally talked out of a 'collection'.
But you can't use the Constitution to vociferously argue the right to have any gun you're jonesing to own, but then disregard the Constitution when it comes to freedom of religion.That's hypocritical.
I own and sometimes carry. But nothing over the top (there's no bears roaming the streets of NYC)..and neverwhen I'm going out to drink.
..and there are plenty of religions that have been allowed to exist in the USA that still wear untraditional western garb ...unless the Jewish Orthodox, Amish, Mennonites, etc. are a figment of my imagination.
You don't have to like them, you shouldn't ever cater to them at the expense of your own laws...but you do have to allow them.

But the State Dept. also needs to be diligent in reenforcing tight standards , background checks, etc....so do all our bodies of law enforcement. They need to be able to do their jobs without being handcuffed by any ideological administrators, who may unintentionally grant people untouchable status based on 'imaginary' constitutional rights or false perceptions of racism. That's just common sense to protect the well being of the nations populace.

On a separate note...I never understand the Jesus and Guns crowd. I see their posts on Facebook all the time . Do Christians honestly believe that Jesus Christ would condone owning an assault rifle? Jesus didn't condone people killing each other. What are those people protecting themselves against? If you lead a good Christian life, then this mortal shell you live in now doesn't need protection because you are headed for eternal life.
Unless of course they don't really believe all that and only use the scriptures to lend cover to their own petty, hateful judgements of others.

and for the record, I don't follow any particular religion,...but at the very least, they do seem to be used quite often to support acts of extreme Misoginy.

[EZWind]

There is nothing wrong with weapons regulation.

...there ya go....that's the crux of the matter right there
....in fact, what are the very first words of the 2nd amendment?....A well regulated militia...



I would never, ever be for getting rid of all guns,

....of course not. This is what enrages me about the fanatics and the NRA ...nobody is plotting to come and take away all your guns


I simply don't see the personal argument for owning one of them. Personally I know quite a few gun collectors. I can never get a realistic response from them as to why they need some of their high powered, over the top weapons,
...that's b/c they don't really NEED them. I don't hunt and have never owned a gun, but I know a great many friends and family who do and none of them own any military style weaponry. Anyone who needs an AK-47 to kill Daffy or Bullwinkle or Smokie is one damn lousy sportsman as far as I'm concerned....and I've taken a load of abuse over the years from 2nd amendment zealots for pointing that out. Sorry, I just don't get it


But the State Dept. also needs to be diligent in reenforcing tight standards , background checks, etc....so do all our bodies of law enforcement. They need to be able to do their jobs without being handcuffed by any ideological administrators, who may unintentionally grant people untouchable status based on 'imaginary' constitutional rights or false perceptions of racism. That's just common sense to protect the well being of the nations populace.

...yeah, good luck w/ that. Common sense is one glaring thing that is sadly lacking these days among our elected Congressional legislators


It's like talking to a brick wall.
....not exactly....the brick wall has more common sense

[Ben in LA]

I take it you've never seen a woman covered by full Hijab in a shopping mall while her husband wears jeans and a t-shirt? I agree that any religious based shame of women is stupid but to equate the covering of catholic nuns to the insane nature of the Islamic dress code for women is a wee bit regressive.

Um...maybe that's her choice? That's why I put in parenthesis "AT HER DISCRETION".

As one who has Muslims as friends AND family, not everyone follows every rule. Many actually DO assimilate into western culture...just as some Catholic nuns do. I went to a Catholic school from K-12; by the time I was in the eight grade, many of the nuns were basically wearing just business suits with their hair uncovered; a couple of the older ones still wore the traditional outfit.

As I stated over on Facebook, Trump called for a "total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States until our country's representatives can figure out what is going on".

So why can't we U.S. citizens call for a "total and complete shutdown of assault weapons sales in the United States until our country's representatives can figure out what is going on"? Because we obviously have NOT figured it out. Not after Sandy Hook. Not after Aurora. And damn sure not after Orlando.

[EZWind]

....So why can't we U.S. citizens call for a "total and complete shutdown of assault weapons sales ....

...as well as high capacity magazines, and also call for closing all the sales loopholes and stringent enforcement of background checks. Fact is, we DO call , as poll after poll has shown. The majority of Americans, including a majority of NRA members are in favor of these measures.



.... until our country's representatives can figure out what is going on"?

....sad thing is...they HAVE figured out what's going on....what's going on is the NRA lobbyists, along with the arms dealers and weapons manufacturers are more than happy to line the pockets of Congress with obscene amounts of cash for precisely NOT enacting any of these common sense safety measures which might cut into their bottom line
....and, as my buddy Sergio likes to say...that's what's up

[MrFanti]

Once again, attitudes and beliefs are the issue. For example:

Jim Crow and Segregation laws were repealed once attitudes and beliefs changed. There will always being killings (case in point, the knife death of the French police officer) until attitudes and beliefs are changed.

[dc_guy_75]

You obviously haven't been to the city of Artesia, where a lot of folks from India do business. Funny how many of them still wear their traditional dress and aren't Muslim.

If random Hindus travel and settle 10k miles away, while wearing their native garb, and attempting to live in the US, they can go fuck themselves. They should adapt to their adopted culture, wherever that may be.

And if a Catholic nun can be covered up (at her discretion), why can't Muslims?

When was the last time you saw a nun wearing a habit? Likely it was before the Catholic molestation scandal, no? Personally, I haven't seen a nun wearing a habit in many years. The nuns know its best to blend in.

It's amazing how last week we were mourning Muhammad Ali, a devout Muslim, and now we're back to bashing them again. America!

It makes little sense for black Americans to belong to a religion (Christianity) imposed upon their ancestors by slave masters. Following Islam is a big "fuck you" to Western culture, and you can't blame a member of the undereducated minority (from the poorest section of Louisville, KY) from choosing that path. Cassius Clay had the equivalent of an 8th grade education at best.

In summary, if you can't (or refuse) to adapt to Western culture, please leave. If you refuse, the end awaits.

[Stavros]

Once again, attitudes and beliefs are the issue. For example:

Jim Crow and Segregation laws were repealed once attitudes and beliefs changed. There will always being killings (case in point, the knife death of the French police officer) until attitudes and beliefs are changed.

Attitudes and beliefs can indeed change but in a democratic society those changes often need to be protected, for the debate that lay behind the change and the achievemets not to end. In the US, Jim Crow continues to smear and to segregate but in different ways -per head of population in the US, more Black Americans than any other citizens are denied their freedom because they are in prison; and consider millions of Black Americans shut out of the democratic process because they are denied the right to register to vote. Then add in the attempt to roll back many of the gains in civil liberty that Americans believed they had secured as a consequence of the Civil Rights movement, and you may realise that every generation needs to maintain its faith in its achievements, or risk losing them to those who were and still are opposed to them.

[filghy2]

Good luck with working out what's going on when NRA and their Congressional stooges have blocked research into the issue, obviously because they are afraid of what it's likely to conclude http://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik/la-fi-hiltzik-gun-research-funding-20160614-snap-story.html

[dc_guy_75]

3 mass murders in a row, thanks to the demented Religion called Islam.

Congratulations.

[Stavros]

If random Hindus travel and settle 10k miles away, while wearing their native garb, and attempting to live in the US, they can go fuck themselves. They should adapt to their adopted culture, wherever that may be.

When was the last time you saw a nun wearing a habit? Likely it was before the Catholic molestation scandal, no? Personally, I haven't seen a nun wearing a habit in many years. The nuns know its best to blend in.

It makes little sense for black Americans to belong to a religion (Christianity) imposed upon their ancestors by slave masters. Following Islam is a big "fuck you" to Western culture, and you can't blame a member of the undereducated minority (from the poorest section of Louisville, KY) from choosing that path. Cassius Clay had the equivalent of an 8th grade education at best.

In summary, if you can't (or refuse) to adapt to Western culture, please leave. If you refuse, the end awaits.

You are quoting and responding to Ben_in_La's earlier post but need to learn how to use the quote functions. Meanwhile-

I wonder how many people left the UK to live in the Empire in India but when they settled in never wore a sari or sandals; just as the Pilgrim Fathers who arrived in America did not swap their top hats and tailored coats for feathered head-dresses and animal hide.

It is brave man, or a foolish man who offers Hung Angels his judgements based on the way people dress...

[Mateo.luna]

peace and justice in Orlando. Blessing for all the affected families.

[peacheater]

"Choice"? Or an example of brainwashing and 1984 style conformity to an intolerant ideology that condones the beating of women if they do not adhere to the doctrine...or should I call it the "culture"? Fuck culture, and fuck religious tolerance when it buries its head in the sand on the issue of backward ideologies.

Although I agree that the US obsession with guns is a part of the problem. There was a bill recently vetoed (by the GOP of course) to prevent anyone red flagged as a suspected terrorist or on the no-fly list from being able to legally buy weapons. The gun nuts would rather let a suspected potential Islamic terrorist have access to guns than let the government try and prevent guns getting into the hands of nutcases. Which one can only conclude is a case of NRA members secretly knowing they are crazy. And probably deep in the closet

[Ben in LA]

I wonder how many people left the UK to live in the Empire in India but when they settled in never wore a sari or sandals; just as the Pilgrim Fathers who arrived in America did not swap their top hats and tailored coats for feathered head-dresses and animal hide.
Exactly. When they INVADED those countries, they didn't assimilate to the natives' culture; they forced their own on them.

Same when current "expacts" from western countries move elsewhere. They tend to keep many of these their own norms and such.

And the nuns at the Catholic church down the street from my house still wear the habit. Guess they're still old-school.

Also his name was MUHAMMAD ALI. He might have had an "eighth grade education at best", but he was still smarter than many of the people who attempted to bring him down.

[trish]

If random Hindus travel and settle 10k miles away, while wearing their native garb, and attempting to live in the US, they can go fuck themselves. They should adapt to their adopted culture, wherever that may be.
...
When was the last time you saw a nun wearing a habit? Likely it was before the Catholic molestation scandal, no? Personally, I haven't seen a nun wearing a habit in many years. The nuns know its best to blend in.
...

If you wander through Lancaster or York Counties in Pennsylvania (or some places in rural Ohio, Illinois and elsewhere) you will find men, women and children dressed in Amish garb. The women wear long black (or darkly colored dresses and white bonnets even in the hot summer months. The men wear long black pants and beards. You want them to fuck themselves because they don't blend in and don't care to blend in? How about the Hasidic Jews in New York? I grew up not blending and not fitting in. Okay, I might fuck myself, but I'm not leaving. You can go fuck yourself.

All of us - citizens and immigrants, religious or not - are obligated to respect one another and obey the laws of the land. We do not kick people out based on bigoted presumptions of what they might do because they don't blend in.

[Ben in LA]

I can't believe I typed "expacts" instead of "expats". Oh well...they're IMMIGRANTS.

[MrFanti]

As a Black person myself, I would debate that some of our issues are self-inflicted - and this is all that I'm going to say.

Getting back on topic to Orlando. One LGBT person killed by a knife (or dying by being beat-up) is too many - attitude and belief changes are the only way to prevent this.


Attitudes and beliefs can indeed change but in a democratic society those changes often need to be protected, for the debate that lay behind the change and the achievemets not to end. In the US, Jim Crow continues to smear and to segregate but in different ways -per head of population in the US, more Black Americans than any other citizens are denied their freedom because they are in prison; and consider millions of Black Americans shut out of the democratic process because they are denied the right to register to vote. Then add in the attempt to roll back many of the gains in civil liberty that Americans believed they had secured as a consequence of the Civil Rights movement, and you may realise that every generation needs to maintain its faith in its achievements, or risk losing them to those who were and still are opposed to them.

[dc_guy_75]

If you wander through Lancaster or York Counties in Pennsylvania (or some places in rural Ohio, Illinois and elsewhere) you will find men, women and children dressed in Amish garb. The women wear long black (or darkly colored dresses and white bonnets even in the hot summer months. The men wear long black pants and beards. You want them to fuck themselves because they don't blend in and don't care to blend in? How about the Hasidic Jews in New York? I grew up not blending and not fitting in. Okay, I might fuck myself, but I'm not leaving. You can go fuck yourself.

All of us - citizens and immigrants, religious or not - are obligated to respect one another and obey the laws of the land. We do not kick people out based on bigoted presumptions of what they might do because they don't blend in.

Both the Amish and Hasidic Jews are religious extremists, and you're saying we're obligated to respect them? Why should their demented delusions be respected?

At least they aren't slaughtering people, and at least they don't venerate a child-molesting, illiterate, Arab warlord, right?

Regardless, if neither the Amish nor Hasidic Jews nor Muslims were ever allowed to immigrate, America would be doing just fine without them.

[Laphroaig]

If random Hindus travel and settle 10k miles away, while wearing their native garb, and attempting to live in the US, they can go fuck themselves. They should adapt to their adopted culture, wherever that may be.



In summary, if you can't (or refuse) to adapt to Western culture, please leave. If you refuse, the end awaits.

Did the original Western settlers adopt the culture of the NATIVE American Indians? Did they fuck themselves or leave because they didn't? No, they IMPORTED Western culture to the country.




Regardless, if neither the Amish nor Hasidic Jews nor Muslims were ever allowed to immigrate, America would be doing just fine without them.

America is a nation of immigrants (including yourself or your ancestors) and a constantly changing melting pot of different cultures. That's what many find so exciting and vibrant about the USA, it breeds creativity. The downside is that with such a mixture, friction will inevitably happen on occasions.

The NATIVE American Indians would be doing fine without Western immigrants...

[dc_guy_75]

Did the original Western settlers adopt the culture of the NATIVE American Indians? Did they fuck themselves or leave because they didn't? No, they IMPORTED Western culture to the country.

America is a nation of immigrants (including yourself or your ancestors) and a constantly changing melting pot of different cultures. That's what many find so exciting and vibrant about the USA, it breeds creativity. The downside is that with such a mixture, friction will inevitably happen on occasions.

The NATIVE American Indians would be doing fine without Western immigrants...

Western settlers didn't adapt to local traditions, they took over. Similarly, its difficult for many Muslims to adapt to Western traditions. And why should they? They believe their religion is the only 'true' religion, and they look down at all other religious delusions.

Muslims should remain in whatever shithole country they live in now, it's simply foolish to allow them to migrate to Western countries. Damage has already been done by letting so many migrate already, and we need to stop the bleeding.

While Native Americans would surely be better off without the Western invasion, if they were left alone by European nations, the Chinese would've eventually invaded from the opposite coast. Even if Native Americans were fully left alone, they would still be in the stone age, without written language, without domesticated animals, with a sky-high infant mortality rate, living a subsistance existence. North America in 1491 was the equivalent of Europe in 10,000 BC.

[bruce_willy]

The NATIVE American Indians would be doing fine without Western immigrants...

Except at least half of the tribes were at war with the other half. Mass killings, sadisitic torture, rape etc.

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/the-shocking-savagery-of-americas-early-history-22739301/?no-ist

[broncofan]

Both the Amish and Hasidic Jews are religious extremists, and you're saying we're obligated to respect them? Why should their demented delusions be respected?
I want to partially agree and partially disagree. I am a secular Jew who has lived near Hasidic Jews and they are not very good neighbors. They are insular and not very friendly and that's not the American ideal in terms of assimilation. For obvious reasons I don't have much experience with the Amish, but have watched the movie Kingpin...

But while we don't have to respect their beliefs, we do have to respect their civil rights. I am concerned about Islamic radicals, but it does not help to recommend a purge of Muslims. There are people on this thread saying stuff like, "Islam is incompatible with democratic society", but we have millions of law-abiding Muslims in this country and of the mass shootings we've seen in recent years I don't believe a significant percent have been performed by Islamic fundamentalists.

It also doesn't help to label someone like Sadiq Khan as an Islamic extremist as someone did. He is Muslim and his views are quite moderate. Any attempt to paint him as otherwise are obviously based on stereotyping. I have not vetted his entire past but any Muslim who flies a rainbow flag is very obviously not a fundamentalist.

I also think the problem of reconciling religious beliefs with secular values is something that is not just a difficulty for Muslims. Native Americans want to use peyote for religious ceremonies, certain Hasidic Jews want to perform extremely unhygienic practices during circumcision, and some Christians honestly think that opening their businesses to gay men and women violates their right to freely practice their religion, which it doesn't under the court's current reading of the free exercise clause.

That doesn't mean that Muslim extremists (I'm talking about a subset; I'm not saying all Muslims are extremists) do not present a problem for secular values, as they promote a complex of homophobic and misogynistic views. But we cannot turn the lives of millions of people upside down in a search for those who threaten attacks.

We have a tradition in this country of equal protection under the law, which means that you are going to need more than religious affiliation to target someone. And you also need more than homophobia or misogyny in the abstract to arrest someone. And as several people have pointed out, you have a lot of the same doctrines in Judaism and Christianity.

The FBI is going to have to do what they have been doing: namely targeting people who are members of terrorist groups or advocating for attacks against our institutions or people.

[broncofan]

Except at least half of the tribes were at war with the other half. Mass killings, sadisitic torture, rape etc.

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/the-shocking-savagery-of-americas-early-history-22739301/?no-ist
So, they are better off being displaced on a continent they once dwelt in freely? Come on.

[Laphroaig]

Western settlers didn't adapt to local traditions, they took over. Similarly, its difficult for many Muslims to adapt to Western traditions. And why should they? They believe their religion is the only 'true' religion, and they look down at all other religious delusions.

Muslims should remain in whatever shithole country they live in now, it's simply foolish to allow them to migrate to Western countries. Damage has already been done by letting so many migrate already, and we need to stop the bleeding.

While Native Americans would surely be better off without the Western invasion, if they were left alone by European nations, the Chinese would've eventually invaded from the opposite coast. Even if Native Americans were fully left alone, they would still be in the stone age, without written language, without domesticated animals, with a sky-high infant mortality rate, living a subsistance existence. North America in 1491 was the equivalent of Europe in 10,000 BC.


Except at least half of the tribes were at war with the other half. Mass killings, sadisitic torture, rape etc.

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/the-shocking-savagery-of-americas-early-history-22739301/?no-ist

Both of you are somewhat missing the points that I'm making.

1. America is already a nation of immigrants including yourselves.

2. You seem to think it's fine for Westeners to invade and destroy other cultures, rather than adapt and blend in.

Fundamentally, the Muslim religion is one of hospitality and peace. Unfortunatly, it has been subverted by a minority of fanatics who are as abhorant to true Muslims as they are to the rest of the world.

Read theough the history of the Crucades and tell me who the good/bad guys were, the Western Christian Knights or the Eastern Muslims?

[EZWind]

... its difficult for many Muslims to adapt to Western traditions. And why should they? They believe their religion is the only 'true' religion, and they look down at all other religious delusions. ....

....That's funny, I always thought the Roman Catholics thought THEIRS was the one true religion. For that matter so does every other religion...they all think they hold the keys to Heaven and any others are non-believers, heretics and infidels.
...Catholics are murdering doctors and blowing up health clinics and raping altar boys in the name of Jesus....let's get rid of them too while we're at it
...Bottom line...ALL religion is delusional. There is no magic playground up in the sky somewhere where you go when you're dead and everything is peachy keen...certainly no concrete evidence of it anyway

[trish]

Most people here at HA know that I’m an atheist. Just read some of threads in the Religion and Politics section to see me and Stavros have at each other on this issue. We atheists think we’re right too. You can find us occasionally lamenting, “If only everybody gave up their religious mumbo-jumbo and saw the world through the keen, cool eyes of reason.” But that’s nonsense too. For even if we adequately answer the question of ontology, the issue of how to establish what constitutes moral and ethical behavior remains. The other guy, what he believes, how she dresses, how they behave is always the problem. “Hell is other people,” says Jean-Paul Sartre and twentieth-century existentialist, atheist philosopher who thought violence was necessary to pave the way for a communist revolution. Albert Camus, also an atheist and an existentialist broke with Sartre over this issue. He was a leader in the French Underground during the war and saw his share of mayhem.

We just have to learn respect and tolerate one another. Thanks to the First Amendment, America is one of the places where people can and do learn to adjust to each other and live with each other.

But having this argument here, in this thread, is far far afield. Omar Mateen was not a radical Islamist. Although in the last minutes of his life he credited ISIS with the murders he committed, he was not ISIS. Investigators are telling us he was confused about his sexuality. He visited the Pulse and other gay clubs for a number of years. He used a gay dating app. He likely never came out to his family because his father was a homophobe. Thinking he could be cured, he probably tried to take refuge in religion. His online searches lead him to not only ISIS, but Hezbolah and Al Qaeda. All sworn enemies of each other. Yet Omar took the hatred each had to offer (without becoming a member of any - which is why the FBI lost interest in him) and turned it toward himself. But religion is not the whole story. Omar deliberately chose Latino Night for his attack. His was a hate crime; a hate crime against himself, gays and latinos. It is no coincidence that this tragedy occurred at the moment when anti-gay, anti-latino and anti-muslim sentiment is loudly proclaimed by angry mobs and pundits everyday. His father, his religion and society were all dishing out hatred, all telling him he was unnatural, that he didn’t blend in. Notice, that Islam is not a necessary element of element of this story. We could easily tell the same story with almost any other religion taking the place of Islam. We could even tell a atheistic story where Omar hates himself because some bizarre naturalist theory tells him and his father that being gay is wrong because species need to reproduce or go extinct.

The shooter went off the deep end, not because of his beliefs but because he was pushed in that direction from every direction he turned. We might not be able to avoid every tragedy, but we could stop pushing people around. We could stop building walls, stop manufacturing assault weapons, stop manufacturing hate 24/7 and listen.

Remember the people who suffered and died this week were at The Pulse because it was a place where they felt they belonged; a place where they did in fact blend in - if nowhere else.

[bruce_willy]

Fundamentally, the Muslim religion is one of hospitality and peace. Unfortunatly, it has been subverted by a minority of fanatics who are as abhorant to true Muslims as they are to the rest of the world.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAH! Did Hillary Clinton tell you that?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cItgz3OpdTI

[bruce_willy]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTFmZteROas

[bruce_willy]

Most people here at HA know that I’m an atheist. Just read some of threads in the Religion and Politics section to see me and Stavros have at each other on this issue. We atheists think we’re right too. You can find us occasionally lamenting, “If only everybody gave up their religious mumbo-jumbo and saw the world through the keen, cool eyes of reason.” But that’s nonsense too. For even if we adequately answer the question of ontology, the issue of how to establish what constitutes moral and ethical behavior remains. The other guy, what he believes, how she dresses, how they behave is always the problem. “Hell is other people,” says Jean-Paul Sartre and twentieth-century existentialist, atheist philosopher who thought violence was necessary to pave the way for a communist revolution. Albert Camus, also an atheist and an existentialist broke with Sartre over this issue. He was a leader in the French Underground during the war and saw his share of mayhem.

We just have to learn respect and tolerate one another. Thanks to the First Amendment, America is one of the places where people can and do learn to adjust to each other and live with each other.

But having this argument here, in this thread, is far far afield. Omar Mateen was not a radical Islamist. Although in the last minutes of his life he credited ISIS with the murders he committed, he was not ISIS. Investigators are telling us he was confused about his sexuality. He visited the Pulse and other gay clubs for a number of years. He used a gay dating app. He likely never came out to his family because his father was a homophobe. Thinking he could be cured, he probably tried to take refuge in religion. His online searches lead him to not only ISIS, but Hezbolah and Al Qaeda. All sworn enemies of each other. Yet Omar took the hatred each had to offer (without becoming a member of any - which is why the FBI lost interest in him) and turned it toward himself. But religion is not the whole story. Omar deliberately chose Latino Night for his attack. His was a hate crime; a hate crime against himself, gays and latinos. It is no coincidence that this tragedy occurred at the moment when anti-gay, anti-latino and anti-muslim sentiment is loudly proclaimed by angry mobs and pundits everyday. His father, his religion and society were all dishing out hatred, all telling him he was unnatural, that he didn’t blend in. Notice, that Islam is not a necessary element of element of this story. We could easily tell the same story with almost any other religion taking the place of Islam. We could even tell a atheistic story where Omar hates himself because some bizarre naturalist theory tells him and his father that being gay is wrong because species need to reproduce or go extinct.

The shooter went off the deep end, not because of his beliefs but because he was pushed in that direction from every direction he turned. We might not be able to avoid every tragedy, but we could stop pushing people around. We could stop building walls, stop manufacturing assault weapons, stop manufacturing hate 24/7 and listen.

Remember the people who suffered and died this week were at The Pulse because it was a place where they felt they belonged; a place where they did in fact blend in - if nowhere else.

So what you are saying is the feeble minded concept of 'why can't we all just get along'?

Well we can't. That's just the way life works. Sorry you cannot understand that.

[trish]

No, I didn't ask that question. In fact, I believe I explained in the first paragraph that we probably never will all get along and that not even reasonable people will ever agree on how we should structure our society. I'm merely suggesting that the bruce-willys of the world could stretch their minds a little more and hate a little less. I know...you think you can't...but you can.

[ilove2swallow]

I am a non believer, but am very happy I was raised Christian.

[Laphroaig]

Except at least half of the tribes were at war with the other half. Mass killings, sadisitic torture, rape etc.

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/the-shocking-savagery-of-americas-early-history-22739301/?no-ist

Civilizations develop at different rates. At various times, similar things could have been said about us Brits by the Chinese, the Egyptians, the Greeks, the Romans, etc. Civilizations and Empires grow and dissapear. Americas influence on the world has peaked and is now slowly on the wane. Time will tell whether this is a positive or negative effect.

The Mongols were in not too dissimilar a position to the American Indians, before Ghenhis united the tribes. He and his decendents then went on to do great and terrible things. Arguably, only luck and timing prevented them from adding Western Europe to their list of conquests. They withdrew, not through defeat, but due to the news of the death of Ghengis himself back home. The whole world would be a very different place, but for that.

Who knows how the American Indians would have developed without outside interferences? Since they've been intruduced to Western culture, we've had World War 1 and 2, mass murders via gas chambers, Vietnam, etc, etc. Is that really an improvement?

[filghy2]

According to several press reports, more American were shot by toddlers last year than by terrorists http://www.huffingtonpost.com/benjamin-powers/toddlers-involved-in-more_b_8650536.html
Maybe we should ban gunowners from having kids until we work out what is going on.

[Ts RedVeX]

No. That would jeopardise the potential income from various taxes which the surviving children may be paying in future.

[Gillian]

No, I didn't ask that question. In fact, I believe I explained in the first paragraph that we probably never will all get along and that not even reasonable people will ever agree on how we should structure our society. I'm merely suggesting that the bruce-willys of the world could stretch their minds a little more and hate a little less. I know...you think you can't...but you can.
I think that in this and your earlier post you've pretty much nailed it.

Societies need a moral code and traditionally religions have provided one, but there's no reason why we can't all agree a secular one.

Tolerance, but within rules would be something to aspire to ...

[notdrunk]

Most people here at HA know that I’m an atheist. Just read some of threads in the Religion and Politics section to see me and Stavros have at each other on this issue. We atheists think we’re right too. You can find us occasionally lamenting, “If only everybody gave up their religious mumbo-jumbo and saw the world through the keen, cool eyes of reason.” But that’s nonsense too. For even if we adequately answer the question of ontology, the issue of how to establish what constitutes moral and ethical behavior remains. The other guy, what he believes, how she dresses, how they behave is always the problem. “Hell is other people,” says Jean-Paul Sartre and twentieth-century existentialist, atheist philosopher who thought violence was necessary to pave the way for a communist revolution. Albert Camus, also an atheist and an existentialist broke with Sartre over this issue. He was a leader in the French Underground during the war and saw his share of mayhem.

We just have to learn respect and tolerate one another. Thanks to the First Amendment, America is one of the places where people can and do learn to adjust to each other and live with each other.

But having this argument here, in this thread, is far far afield. Omar Mateen was not a radical Islamist. Although in the last minutes of his life he credited ISIS with the murders he committed, he was not ISIS. Investigators are telling us he was confused about his sexuality. He visited the Pulse and other gay clubs for a number of years. He used a gay dating app. He likely never came out to his family because his father was a homophobe. Thinking he could be cured, he probably tried to take refuge in religion. His online searches lead him to not only ISIS, but Hezbolah and Al Qaeda. All sworn enemies of each other. Yet Omar took the hatred each had to offer (without becoming a member of any - which is why the FBI lost interest in him) and turned it toward himself. But religion is not the whole story. Omar deliberately chose Latino Night for his attack. His was a hate crime; a hate crime against himself, gays and latinos. It is no coincidence that this tragedy occurred at the moment when anti-gay, anti-latino and anti-muslim sentiment is loudly proclaimed by angry mobs and pundits everyday. His father, his religion and society were all dishing out hatred, all telling him he was unnatural, that he didn’t blend in. Notice, that Islam is not a necessary element of element of this story. We could easily tell the same story with almost any other religion taking the place of Islam. We could even tell a atheistic story where Omar hates himself because some bizarre naturalist theory tells him and his father that being gay is wrong because species need to reproduce or go extinct.

The shooter went off the deep end, not because of his beliefs but because he was pushed in that direction from every direction he turned. We might not be able to avoid every tragedy, but we could stop pushing people around. We could stop building walls, stop manufacturing assault weapons, stop manufacturing hate 24/7 and listen.

Remember the people who suffered and died this week were at The Pulse because it was a place where they felt they belonged; a place where they did in fact blend in - if nowhere else.

People tend to forget that ISIS/ISIL is also a brand. The group publishes a lot of propaganda online hoping that individuals will conduct acts of terrorism against the West. Even before Omar showed possible gay tendencies, he was ripe for radicalization. For example, he was suspended for cheering the 9/11 attacks on 9/11. As well, he was twice investigated by the FBI for possible terrorism ties. Most people aren't investigated for terrorism ties by the FBI. Can you name individuals twice investigated for terrorism ties? This isn't the first time that a radicalized individual targeted gay people to attack the West. Most people don't know about Ali Muhammad Brown and what he did in Seattle. He used gay social apps to murder two gay males because he wanted wage war against the United States.

Immigration has nothing to do with this act of terrorism.

[giovanni_hotel]

People tend to forget that ISIS/ISIL is also a brand. The group publishes a lot of propaganda online hoping that individuals will conduct acts of terrorism against the West. Even before Omar showed possible gay tendencies, he was ripe for radicalization. For example, he was suspended for cheering the 9/11 attacks on 9/11. As well, he was twice investigated by the FBI for possible terrorism ties. Most people aren't investigated for terrorism ties by the FBI. Can you name individuals twice investigated for terrorism ties? This isn't the first time that a radicalized individual targeted gay people to attack the West. Most people don't know about Ali Muhammad Brown and what he did in Seattle. He used gay social apps to murder two gay males because he wanted wage war against the United States.

Immigration has nothing to do with this act of terrorism.

It really doesn't take much to be investigated by the FBI.
All someone has to do is make the right phonecall and give an agent the right backstory.

I could get any Muslim right now where I work 'investigated' by the FBI.
'Cheering' 9/11 could be as little as getting into an argument with a co-worker saying we deserved to be attacked because of our foreign policy,(not my opinion, just an example.)

If Omar was really ISIL connected, he would still have been under investigative surveillance.
Instead as I'm sure the FBI found out, Mateen was an angry, emotionally troubled young Muslim man who was more curious about ISIL than anything else.

By definition this was a 'terrorist' attack, but it wasn't an ISIL driven attack.
Because more than anything IMO this was a hate crime committed by someone in great distress over his closeted sexuality.

I think we have to be careful to label any terrorist attacker who cries allegiance to ISIS before committing some atrocity as being a part of some larger ISIL terrorist network.

No one recruited Mateen. No one trained Mateen. No one helped him choose The Pulse nightclub as a potential high visibility soft target.

By making Omar an ISIL terrorist, you're elevating him to the level of an enemy militant/radical at war with the U.S.
When the truth is he's just a deranged individual trying to validate his murder lust and suicidal impulses.

[trish]

For example, he was suspended for cheering the 9/11 attacks on 9/11. As well, he was twice investigated by the FBI for possible terrorism ties. Most people aren't investigated for terrorism ties by the FBI. Can you name individuals twice investigated for terrorism ties?
I saw that in the Washington Post, which also said the story couldn't be independently verified. Nevertheless, one of his classmates said Omar claimed Osama bin Laden was his uncle. Of course you know Al Qaeda, which carried out the 9/11 attacks under Osama bin Laden, is an enemy of ISIS. So, was Omar ISIS or was he Al Qaeda? I put more stock in Omar Mateen's overall confusion about who and what he was, than in his having been radicalized. Radicals tend to be very specific about which extremes and conspiracy theories they're supporting. According to your post, the FBI twice decided he had no specific terrorist ties. I imagine the FBI takes a second look at everyone who demonstrates a continued interest those kind of websites.


Most people don't know about Ali Muhammad Brown and what he did in Seattle.
Ali Muhammad Brown one time told investigators he was "guided by his faith," yet he mostly claims his actions were in retaliation for U.S. actions in Somalia, Iraq, Afghanistan and Syria. He, like the Donald, also is an American citizen by birth. According to him his actions (murders committed in or prior to 2014) were more political than religious. Did U.S. attitudes toward immigration factor into his motivations? I don't know and neither do you.

However, back to Omar Mateen: to claim that Omar was not in any way goaded by the anti-immigration pollution that clouds the atmosphere around every Republican rally these days taxes reason and common sense to the breaking point.

Anti-immigration attitudes (against Muslims, Latinos and so on), the availability of guns, Judeo-Christian-Islamic beliefs about gays, homophobia in general, political grandstanding and fear mongering are all issues that played a role in this most current act of terrorism.

[notdrunk]

It really doesn't take much to be investigated by the FBI.
All someone has to do is make the right phonecall and give an agent the right backstory.

I could get any Muslim right now where I work 'investigated' by the FBI.
'Cheering' 9/11 could be as little as getting into an argument with a co-worker saying we deserved to be attacked because of our foreign policy,(not my opinion, just an example.)

If Omar was really ISIL connected, he would still have been under investigative surveillance.
Instead as I'm sure the FBI found out, Mateen was an angry, emotionally troubled young Muslim man who was more curious about ISIL than anything else.

By definition this was a 'terrorist' attack, but it wasn't an ISIL driven attack.
Because more than anything IMO this was a hate crime committed by someone in great distress over his closeted sexuality.

I think we have to be careful to label any terrorist attacker who cries allegiance to ISIS before committing some atrocity as being a part of some larger ISIL terrorist network.

No one recruited Mateen. No one trained Mateen. No one helped him choose The Pulse nightclub as a potential high visibility soft target.

By making Omar an ISIL terrorist, you're elevating him to the level of an enemy militant/radical at war with the U.S.
When the truth is he's just a deranged individual trying to validate his murder lust and suicidal impulses.

Again, ISIL is a brand. You have various terrorist organizations declaring "allegiance" to ISIL even though they don't operate in the same area as ISIL. For example, Boko Haram declared allegiance to ISIL even though they operate in Nigeria. ISIL publishes a lot of material online on how to attack the West. It wants people like Omar because they have a good chance to secede. It is looking for franchisees because it is a franchisor. It wasn't a simple hate crime. Did you read or heard news about the 911 transcripts? He mentioned Iraq and Syria aka typical shit that radicalized individuals mention.

Something is seriously wrong with you if you were cheering on 9/11. Omar was suspended from school because his of the cheering.

[notdrunk]

I saw that in the Washington Post, which also said the story couldn't be independently verified. Nevertheless, one of his classmates said Omar claimed Osama bin Laden was his uncle. Of course you know Al Qaeda, which carried out the 9/11 attacks under Osama bin Laden, is an enemy of ISIS. So, was Omar ISIS or was he Al Qaeda? I put more stock in Omar Mateen's overall confusion about who and what he was, than in his having been radicalized. Radicals tend to be very specific about which extremes and conspiracy theories they're supporting. According to your post, the FBI twice decided he had no specific terrorist ties. I imagine the FBI takes a second look at everyone who demonstrates a continued interest those kind of websites.


Ali Muhammad Brown one time told investigators he was "guided by his faith," yet he mostly claims his actions were in retaliation for U.S. actions in Somalia, Iraq, Afghanistan and Syria. He, like the Donald, also is an American citizen by birth. According to him his actions (murders committed in or prior to 2014) were more political than religious. Did U.S. attitudes toward immigration factor into his motivations? I don't know and neither do you.

However, back to Omar Mateen: to claim that Omar was not in any way goaded by the anti-immigration pollution that clouds the atmosphere around every Republican rally these days taxes reason and common sense to the breaking point.

Anti-immigration attitudes (against Muslims, Latinos and so on), the availability of guns, Judeo-Christian-Islamic beliefs about gays, homophobia in general, political grandstanding and fear mongering are all issues that played a role in this most current act of terrorism.

The transcript shows us that he was radicalized. It is no doubt that he was radicalized. He was very specific in the 911 calls about his motives. He didn't mention immigration and Hispanics. Stop trying to add on things that aren't there.

Islam muddles religion and politics. There is no separation of church and state. Church and state are one to Islam. Ali saw the United States attacking his brothers and sisters; therefore, he needed to respond even though he has never been to those countries that were attacked. He murdered those people because the United States military killed Muslims in those countries.

[giovanni_hotel]

When a closeted gay man attacks a gay club, under any metric that has to be a primary factor.
Was it greater than his alleged Islamic radicalism??

I can't say, that's why I stick with the FBI description that this was BOTH a hate crime and a terrorist attack.

[chupapau]

So what you are saying is the feeble minded concept of 'why can't we all just get along'?

Well we can't. That's just the way life works. Sorry you cannot understand that.

Oh he can understand it alright, he just is disappointed with people who have lost/haven't found their reason, and who are unable to answer with anything else than a 30 second/150 character message, much like yours.

So, you like a fight it seems, huh? (where is that f*cking peace emoticon when you need it) :peace:

[chupapau]

I can't say, that's why I stick with the FBI description that this was BOTH a hate crime and a terrorist attack.

One with a very high low esteem factor.