Oregon "standoff"

[Ben in LA]

I see no one is really talking about these militia - oops, TERRORISTS - talking over this federal building. Gee, I wonder why? Hmm...

http://www.cnn.com/2016/01/03/us/oregon-wildlife-refuge-protest/

Armed protesters take over wildlife refuge building in Oregon

(CNN)Armed protesters have taken over a building in a federal wildlife refuge in Oregon, accusing officials of unfairly punishing ranchers who refused to sell their land.

One them is Ammon Bundy, the 40-year-old son of Nevada rancher Cliven Bundy, who is well-known for anti-government action.

He spoke by phone to CNN on Sunday at 8 a.m. ET. Asked several times what he and those with him want, he answered in vague terms, saying that they want the federal government to restore the "people's constitutional rights."

"This refuge -- it has been destructive to the people of the county and to the people of the area," he said.

"People need to be aware that we've become a system where government is actually claiming and using and defending people's rights, and they are doing that against the people."

The group is inside part of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge near Burns after gathering outside for a demonstration supporting Dwight and Steven Hammond, father and son ranchers who were convicted of arson.

Prosecutors said the Hammonds set a fire that burned about 130 acres in 2001, to cover up poaching. The father and son were sentenced to five years in prison.

The Hammonds said they set the fire to reduce the growth of invasive plants and to protect their property from wildfires, CNN affiliate KTVZ reported.

The group is inside part of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge near Burns after gathering outside for a demonstration supporting Dwight and Steven Hammond, father and son ranchers who were convicted of arson.

Prosecutors said the Hammonds set a fire that burned about 130 acres in 2001, to cover up poaching. The father and son were sentenced to five years in prison.

The Hammonds said they set the fire to reduce the growth of invasive plants and to protect their property from wildfires, CNN affiliate KTVZ reported.

The group is inside part of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge near Burns after gathering outside for a demonstration supporting Dwight and Steven Hammond, father and son ranchers who were convicted of arson.

Prosecutors said the Hammonds set a fire that burned about 130 acres in 2001, to cover up poaching. The father and son were sentenced to five years in prison.

The Hammonds said they set the fire to reduce the growth of invasive plants and to protect their property from wildfires, CNN affiliate KTVZ reported.


'We are not terrorists'

After the march Saturday, the armed protesters broke into the refuge's unoccupied building and refused to leave. Officials have said there are no government employees in the building.


Armed protesters rally to support Oregon rancher 02:05
"We will be here as long as it takes," Bundy said. "We have no intentions of using force upon anyone, (but) if force is used against us, we would defend ourselves."

Ammon Bundy said that the group in Oregon was armed, but that he would not describe it as a militia. He declined to say how many people were with him, telling CNN on Sunday that giving that information might jeopardize "operational security."

The elder Bundy drew national attention last year after staging a standoff with federal authorities over a Bureau of Land Management dispute.

"We are not terrorists," Ammon Bundy said. "We are concerned citizens and realize we have to act if we want to pass along anything to our children."

He wouldn't call his group a militia, but others are.

"I don't like the militia's methods," local resident Monica McCannon told KTVZ. "They had their rally. Now it's time for them to go home. People are afraid of them."

A U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service representative said the agency and the Bureau of Land Management are aware of the armed protesters.

"While the situation is ongoing, the main concern is employee safety, and we can confirm that no federal staff were in the building at the time of the initial incident," the representative said. "We will continue to monitor the situation."


What the protesters want

When asked what it would take for the protesters to leave, Bundy did not offer specifics. He said he and those with him are prepared to stay put for days or weeks.


"We feel that we will occupy this as long as necessary," he said.

"We are using the wildlife refuge as a place for individuals across the United States to come and assist in helping the people of Harney County claim back their lands and resources," he said.

"The people will need to be able to use the land and resources without fear as free men and women. We know it will take some time."

He did not explicitly call on authorities to commute the prison sentences for the Hammonds, who are scheduled to report to prison Monday. But he said their case illustrates officials' "abuse" of power.

"Now that people such as the Hammonds are taking a stand and not selling their ranches, they are being prosecuted in their own courts as terrorists and putting them in prison for five years," Bundy said.

He said the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge has taken over the space of 100 ranches since the early 1900s.

"They are continuing to expand the refuge at the expense of the ranchers and miners," Bundy said.

He also said Harney County, in southeastern Oregon, went from one of the state's wealthiest counties to one of the poorest.

CNN has not independently corroborated Bundy's claims.

"I want to emphasis that the American people are wondering why they can't seem to get ahead or why everything is costing more and you are getting less, and that is because the federal government is taking and using the land and resources," Bundy said.

"And if it is continued, it will put the people in poverty."


What the feds say

Acting U.S. Attorney Billy J. Williams of Oregon gave a starkly different perspective on the arson case.

His office declined to comment on the situation at the wildlife refuge Saturday, but it cited an opinion piece written by Williams in the Burns Times Herald last month defending the federal prosecutors' actions in the Hammonds case.


Protesters march for Oregon ranchers 02:05
"Five years ago, a federal grand jury charged Dwight and Steven Hammond with committing arson on public lands and endangering firefighters," Williams wrote for the newspaper. "Steven Hammond was also found guilty of committing a second arson in 2006."

The prosecutor said witnesses saw the Hammonds illegally slaughter a herd of deer on public land.

"At least seven deer were shot with others limping or running from the scene," Williams wrote.

He said a teenage relative of the Hammonds testified that Steven Hammond gave him a box of matches and told him to start the blaze. "The fires destroyed evidence of the deer slaughter and took about 130 acres of public land out of public use for two years," the prosecutor wrote.

Williams also disputed the notion that the Hammonds were prosecuted as terrorists, as Bundy suggested.

"The jury was neither asked if the Hammonds were terrorists, nor were defendants ever charged with or accused of terrorism," Williams wrote. "Suggesting otherwise is simply flat-out wrong."

[trish]

Letting the racist, violence-threatening, freeloaders get away with in Texas only encouraged these anti-American assholes to try the same. The Hammond's had their day in court. They were found guilty and sentenced to prison. Now a private armed militia demands we set them set them free?!

[fred41]

It seems no one wants them there...or asked for them to be there:

http://bearingarms.com/militia-showdown-isnt-wanted/

(did you mean Nevada Trish?)

[wearboots4me]

Unarmed, peaceful Occupy Wall Street protesters got their asses beat by police for protesting. But these assholes are armed with weapons of war and they are threatening the government, and no one in law enforcement raises a finger to them. This should show you what the priorities are in this country.

[fred41]

Unarmed, peaceful Occupy Wall Street protesters got their asses beat by police for protesting. But these assholes are armed with weapons of war and they are threatening the government, and no one in law enforcement raises a finger to them. This should show you what the priorities are in this country.

It just started...these are possibly armed militia, who may or may not have family with them. They probably don't mind some deaths, even if it's some of their own just so it'll look like another Waco.They want their own little war. I'm sure everybody's trying to figure out how to do this without any injuries or casualties.

...in all honesty,it's been said that some of those groups have their hand in the Occupy Movement also.

[fred41]

...it's minor but it exists..
http://www.politicalresearch.org/2014/02/13/20-on-the-right-in-occupy/#sthash.zPFHZLNa.dpbs

http://www.politicalresearch.org/2014/02/23/the-right-hand-of-occupy-wall-street-from-libertarians-to-nazis-the-fact-and-fiction-of-right-wing-involvement/#sthash.IzSkwbaL.sRfisSOB.dpbs

[broncofan]

I didn't mention anything about it because I didn't know about it. I remember being very irritated with the Cliven Bundy cattle situation. I don't see how the government can avoid using force here. Just because the Bundy family does not understand the law or the constitution does not give them the right to storm federal buildings and occupy them while threatening officers with weapons.

As Trish said, the Hammonds were convicted of arson. Why these other asswipes think the Hammonds should avoid being punished is beyond me, but the Bundys are responsible for any violence that ensues. I cannot for the life of me understand what these other protesters are doing with signs protesting against the government...should burning wildlife on federal land now be legal?

[broncofan]

I want to add it's also a bit of a catch 22 because if you use force you feed the conspiracy theory. But as someone at the Southern Poverty Law Center said, when the government does not act in the face of obvious violations of the law it encourages more law breaking. With due consideration for whether family members are there and for the numerous ways to end a stand-off, the government must enforce its laws...and it does so by force. You can't placate the crazy because you're afraid it will provide more fodder for the other crazies.

[fred41]

I want to add it's also a bit of a catch 22 because if you use force you feed the conspiracy theory. But as someone at the Southern Poverty Law Center said, when the government does not act in the face of obvious violations of the law it encourages more law breaking. With due consideration for whether family members are there and for the numerous ways to end a stand-off, the government must enforce its laws...and it does so by force. You can't placate the crazy because you're afraid it will provide more fodder for the other crazies.

This is absolutely true...
on the other hand reactions may be slower because it's such a rural area.
But it is annoying that nothing happened to anybody after the first standoff by the Bundy family. It just emboldens more and more of these kooks to have to wander about and display their cocks...I'm sorry, I meant guns.

[fred41]

again Bronc, as you and Trish have stated, if you don't enforce laws against them, it just emboldens them even more. From this article: http://abcnews.go.com/US/fbi-monitoring-situation-oregon-national-wildlife-refuge/story?id=36075007

"What we're really seeing is a continuation of what started in April 2014, of militia folks and anti-government folks deciding that they're not going to accept federal authorities over federal lands," Beirich told ABC News today.
"At the Bundy ranch, the federal government stood down. They had absolute cause to take Bundy's cattle. The Bundys were able -- at the point of a gun -- to drive the federal government and its representatives ... off the land," she said.
"Bundy is still a free man. He hasn't paid his money, and it's emboldened the entire movement to basically think, 'We don't have to follow the rules,'" Beirich said, explaining that that is what's happening now in Oregon.
The Bundy incident in 2014, as well as another incident in Oregon last year, "enlivened" the militias, she said, because they made them feel successful.
"They made the federal government back down from enforcing the law," she said. "And that has emboldened all these people, giving life to the movement."

[trish]

(did you mean Nevada Trish?)Apparently I did. Thanks for the correction.

[hippifried]

While sifting through the incredible amount of bullshit concerning this issue, it would seen that part of the accusation against the Hammonds was that they started the fire to cover up a large venison poaching operation. They claim it was started as a backfire to protect their property from a wildfire that was headed their way. Guilty verdict for arson & reckless endangerment. Prosecutors appealed what they felt was an overly lenient sentence, & won. More jail time was added, but by the time that happened, they had already finished & gone home. In a statement, through their lawyer, they basically said that they just want to finish their time & go home; & that they don't want to be involved or affiliated with Bundy or any other outsiders with agendas.

[trish]

Understandably the Hammonds just want this to be over and done with as quickly as possible and I assume their lawyers told them no amount of armed protesting is going to reverse the court's findings or commute their sentences.

It does appear the 'Bundy militia" is acting independently. What I didn't know is there's a weird Mormon angle to the story: http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/why-the-bundy-militia-mixes-mormon-symbolism-with-anti-government-sentiment/

[broncofan]

Apparently they believe the Constitution was inspired by Jesus Christ. A bunch of religious seditionists who need to be held accountable for their actions. We can't give veto power over our Constitution to every nutjob who has his own interpretation of the document.

http://theweek.com/articles/597279/bundy-mess-everything-thats-wrong-american-criminal-justice-system

[hippifried]

Are the idiots still there?

[fred41]

It's in the middle of nowhere...they may have to eat each other...lol





P.S...we'll know what happened if Ammon Bundy's the only one left there...and he's really obese.

[martin48]

Still there but it's getting serious. They have destroyed a fence

http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/01/oregon_standoff_bundy_militant.html

[trish]

They said they would leave if asked. So the town implored the Sheriff to ask them to leave and the Sheriff did so. They're still there: honest men of their word... good guys with guns... hey there, hi there, ho there...as welcome as can be.

[martin48]

Sure are

[trish]

Finally the standoff is nearly over. Sadly, one of the occupiers was killed.
( http://nyti.ms/1RMC6oz ).

[broncofan]

Thank you for the update. It appears the FBI showed a lot of patience and that the one man who was killed was resisting arrest. The others will be facing felony charges, which is certainly warranted.

Apparently when referring to the killing of his compatriot Cliven Bundy said, "they cold-blooded killed him", proving that you do not need to know the difference between an adverb and an adjective to be a constitutional scholar.

[trish]

As of this post, the remainder of the militia is still holed up in the Malheur Reserve. LaVoy Finicum's death and the media confusion over how it happened (somebody is clearly lying) may have gained them some political sympathy. I don't understand why authorities allowed people and packages to go in and out of the reserve or why they didn't cut off it's water and power. Then again, I don't understand why Cliven isn't in jail for trespass and tax evasion.

[martin48]

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jan/28/oregon-stand-off-eventually-end-will-goodwill-lost

For once a solid piece of journalism that presents a balanced view

[EZWind]

As of this post, the remainder of the militia is still holed up in the Malheur Reserve. LaVoy Finicum's death and the media confusion over how it happened ...

...didn't realize there was confusion...the way I understand it, while attempting to evade a roadblock set up to apprehend them, their vehicle ended up off the road in a snowbank. Finicum emerged from the vehicle brandishing a weapon....sounds like he got just what he was looking for


....may have gained them some political sympathy.

...not from me....I have absolutely no sympathy at all for these so called "patriots". You know, your country has had a coupla fine wars going on for years now over in the Middle East....you wanna play soldier boy why don't you head on over there and point your fancy guns at Isis and Al Qaida



... I don't understand why authorities allowed people and packages to go in and out of the reserve

...heh heh...got a big kick outta that one....evidently a number of packages they received contained dildos

[trish]

There's one "eyewitness" claims Finicum was surrendering on his knees with his hands in the air when he was shot in cold blood. I understand Carly Fiorina was repeating this version. Another claims that Finicum was brandishing a weapon and another that he was going for his holstered firearm. I'm hoping this gets settled soon.

I do have sympathy for the loss the Finicum's family must be feeling right now. I have no sympathy for his chosen cause and I've zero sympathy for any form of armed protest. There were plenty of peaceful and non-threatening avenues these clowns chose not to explore.


...evidently a number of packages they received contained dildosA lonely cowboy's best friend. I wonder if they came with holsters?

[trish]

Thank you dreamon for your non-verbal input. I'll translate for those you can't understand you: "I'm dreamon and I'm a teabagging asshole."

[broncofan]

He cold-blooded thumbed down me. But seriously, what are the chances that the guy had his hands in the air, was no threat to the police officer and was shot, but everyone else was allowed to live? I have about as much sympathy for Finicum as I do for a matador who gets gored. His family? I suppose so. I wish I were more of a humanitarian. They are certainly innocent of his transgressions.

What I think actually happened. Finicum held up his hands and said, "I come in peace. I have no weapon and no quarrel with you. Please don't shoot." And the officers said, "shoot him, we don't want word to get out about our scheme to control Oregon's valuable land. Let's only leave seven living witnesses."

[broncofan]

I have no sympathy for his chosen cause and I've zero sympathy for any form of armed protest. There were plenty of peaceful and non-threatening avenues these clowns chose not to explore.

I agree. I have no sympathy for sedition, for claiming that your government does not have authority to act when our founding document has given them that authority. Saying you don't recognize the government does not mean the government does not have jurisdiction over you. Their only plan was to try to entice federal agents to arrest them, which was within their remit to do, and then claim they were victims of any violence that ensued. But if you say "come and get me" to a federal officer while you're dressed in camo and carrying a gun, why should anyone be surprised if you get shot?

[dreamon]

Their problem was protesting peacefully. They should have gone about their protest like the folks in Ferguson did. No one died there.

[broncofan]

Their problem was protesting peacefully. They should have gone about their protest like the folks in Ferguson did. No one died there.
They committed felonies. There is no logical basis for thinking they should not be arrested. They had weapons on them and signaled their intention to use them if officers duly charged with arresting them performed their jobs. How is that a peaceful protest? What exactly is your objection? The downvotes are fine...doesn't matter. What is it you think they were doing that they should not be held accountable for?

[Ben in LA]

Now what do you think would have happened if someone non-white had posted this?

911117

So dude was killed. So fucking what.

[dreamon]

FBI's own footage shows Finicum with his hands in the air when he is shot and killed.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDQ6zb1Taq4

[fred41]

That's a load of horseshit...you can have whatever views you want...but don't be one of those assholes that insists on saying what happens, when a tape YOU supply, clearly shows otherwise. He wasn't shot when he had his hands up....he was shot when he kept reaching into his pocket.

[Ben in LA]

That's a load of horseshit...you can have whatever views you want...but don't be one of those assholes that insists on saying what happens, when a tape YOU supply, clearly shows otherwise. He wasn't shot when he had his hands up....he was shot when he kept reaching into his pocket.
Exactly. Video showed that the cops pulled up on Tamir Rice and shot him without hesitation...yet folks STILL blame him for his own death.

[broncofan]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDQ6zb1Taq4
Thank you. I feel better about the shooting after seeing that.

[broncofan]

I swear to God I could not dislike a family more than I dislike the Bundy family. Degenerate shithead Cliven Bundy says it looked like an assassination to him. Time for the government to collect the money he owes them. As Fred says, he was obviously reaching for a gun. Stupidity knows no fucking bounds. Are the police supposed to let this asshole shoot them? Is that it?

[EZWind]

There's one "eyewitness" claims Finicum was surrendering on his knees with his hands in the air when he was shot in cold blood. I understand Carly Fiorina was repeating this version.

....heh heh.....good one
....ya gotta love ole shit for brains Carly "don't confuse me with the truth my mind is made up" Fiorina
....true to form, she's sticking with her delusional rant over Planned Parenthood, despite the fact that the court has cleared PP of any and all of those bogus claims and actually turned around and indicted the pair that perpetrated the hoax in the first place. a court in TEXAS, btw....and with a GOP prosecutor....just boggles the mind
...I can't fathom how she manages to garner even the embarrassingly minuscule percentages that she has has in the polls

[trish]

...I can't fathom how she manages to garner even the embarrassingly minuscule percentages that she has has in the pollsYou'd be surprised at how many truth-deniers there are in the U.S. Those are voters she's going for. She hopes to get them by being the most blatant and most insistent liar in the race. Unfortunately for her (and us) she's being outdone by even better and more insistent liars.

[trish]

FBI's own footage shows Finicum with his hands in the air when he is shot and killedThanks for posting the vid. It shows that finicum's hands were up in frame 5:57 (of the posted vid). Also up and out in frames 5:58 to 6:00. Frames 6:01 and 6:02 shows his arms down, elbows out and hands at his waist. Frame 6:03 he seems to be reaching for something at his waist. The agent in front of him has his gun raised. Frame 6:04 he's turning (possibly becoming aware of the agent behind). 6:05 seems to me without further evidence to be the earliest the fatal shot may have been fired. Finicum's hands are not up. In 6:06 he may be falling. In 6:07 he's down.

If firearms deter, then they also intimidate, escalate and accelerate.

[dreamon]

His hands were up when the first shot was fired. His hands only went down because they went to where he had just been shot. He was murdered.

[trish]

Dream on. Let's us know when the drugs wear off and you're back in the real world.

[fred41]

Just gave that drivel a "thumbs up" by mistake...second time my fat fingers made a mistake on this thread.
...anyway,...people see what they want to see. It's always been that way.

[fred41]

...and to dispel other bull shit: none of them are "Patriots".

[broncofan]

If we were conspiracy theorists like these militia nuts this is how infuriating the discussion would be for dreamon. First, we would say we did not believe he was dead; show me a body. Then when we see pictures of the body, we'd say we don't believe it's Finicum, show me dna evidence. Then when the dna evidence was brought forward we'd say there never was a Finicum, he was an actor.

Be thankful that we're sane and simply saying that he was clearly shot while reaching for a gun. The shooting was caught on video and the video shows him reaching around his waistband when he was shot. Like the other nutjobs, nothing he said during his lifetime made any fucking sense and nothing being said about him afterward does either. But he was alive, he was shot, and now he's dead.

These are not patriots but people with a warped understanding of our constitution, no respect for law enforcement or the rule of law.

[trish]

http://bearingarms.com/lavoy-finicum-murdered-forced-oregon-police-shoot/

[fred41]

Thank You Trish...that's an excellent article which breaks it down nicely. It's amazing the amount of rope LE gives these guys but it's still not enough. Immediately, the explanation had to be murder to folks willing to lie, even to themselves, for their own political causes. As if Finicum was so important that he needed to be assassinated...give me a break. It's amazing how people willfully blind themselves with hate.
How weak.

[broncofan]

Just gave that drivel a "thumbs up" by mistake...second time my fat fingers made a mistake on this thread.
...anyway,...people see what they want to see. It's always been that way.
It looks like he didn't pay back that accidental thumbs up with kindness:).

[fred41]

It looks like he didn't pay back that accidental thumbs up with kindness:).

He down voted us all quietly...from a secluded position...while our hands were in the air.
I might've been reaching for a Tic Tac...I don't remember.

[buttslinger]

I personally see these militia groups as being just like biker gangs, gangs of outrageous transsexuals, the KKK, or any other group of "outlaws" that cling together against a general population that doesn't really approve of them.

If Dreamon, wants to take a stand, I would say quote Trump and Cruz when they point out that the USA is 19 trillion in debt.
When you're that far beyond broke, it means Social Security, the Military, Infrastructure, Medicare, .......EVERYTHING is broke. Functioning on life support only.
To me, this is a thousand times more important than Bundy, even if they were machine gunned down in the snow. Shit Happens.

To me, unlike Trump and Cruz, I see Hillary as the best candidate to tackle this debt, based on nothing more than personal intuition.

Furthuremore, Trish insulting drug use went WAY OVER THE LINE, in my opinion.
I would like to take this opportunity thank Bruncofan's Awesome Defense for spanking Tom Brady's precious ass, better start hydrating up for Sunday's game.

[trish]

Cliven has been arrested and the four remaining armed assholes in the Park are about to surrender.

http://nyti.ms/1PPqVte

[broncofan]

Cliven has been arrested and the four remaining armed assholes in the Park are about to surrender.

http://nyti.ms/1PPqVte
Asshole-gate is almost over and what have we learned? Maybe that you can convince a bunch of morons you have a point even when you don't just by tapping into angst and paranoia. But at the end of the day, the morons don't decide what's legal and what's not.

I would like the feds to execute on the various judgments against Mr. Bundy in addition to holding him criminally responsible for his actions. Maybe auction off his cows and use the money to help women without resources get abortions.

Why should anyone be able to avoid complying with court orders just because they tap into the paranoia of an extremist subculture and threaten rebellion? These are the fruits of their actions.

[trish]

David Fry was the last man at Malheur Refuge to surrender. In the hour or so before he finally turned himself in he asked for pizza and marijuana, threatened suicide and ranted about abortion, drone strikes and U.F.O.'s. What a group of goofballs. How'd these mentally and psychologically impaired losers acquire licenses to carry firearms in the first place?

[broncofan]

I haven't checked my user ratings but I think someone here has a case of hero worship. In case you were wondering it does not actually send an electric shock through my system when I get a negative vote. You can't stop the commentary just like you can't stop the federal government from prosecuting cattle ranching traitors who don't pay their debts. It seems like a good idea to regularly update this thread with news as the prosecution commences through to conviction and incarceration. And on and on she goes until all the outlaws are rounded up and justice is served:).

[fred41]

Sometimes the wheels of justice run slow (sometimes, perhaps in this case, sensibly so...) but eventually they catch up...http://www.npr.org/2016/02/11/466451287/cliven-bundys-arrest-caps-years-of-calls-for-government-to-take-action






...It does leave me to wonder that, if only this old fool would've learned to keep his dumb yap shut and stay put, might he have gotten away with it all unscathed ?...:)

[broncofan]

I've given you a positive vote because I like your post Fred, but also as a bulwark against tyranny. Sic semper ......but seriously this Cliven Bundy doesn't seem much like a patriot to me...he's got a certain je ne sais quoi, like he's French or possibly just highly un-American.:)

[fred41]

I've given you a positive vote because I like your post Fred, but also as a bulwark against tyranny. Sic semper ......but seriously this Cliven Bundy doesn't seem much like a patriot to me...he's got a certain je ne sais quoi, like he's French or possibly just highly un-American.:)

He may be French...since the word "douche" is french.

[broncofan]

He may be French...since the word "douche" is french.
Touche

[trish]

dreamon and Bobvela are so angry they can't put it into words. Just use your firearms boys.

[broncofan]

http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2016/02/fbi-patience-cliven-bundy-oregon-malheur-arrests/462525/

For Bobvela. I had hoped he only snuck firearms into private establishments that expressly forbid it but it seems he also supports sedition. For shame. I expected him to offer a reasonable view on this:cry:. There will be more updates in weeks to come.

[bobvela]

Speak of the devil and he doth appear.

You hope I do what now?

Sorry, but for the most part when I learn that a business asks that I not carry on their property, I respect that desire... by adding them to my unapproved-vendors list and simply not patronizing them anymore.

Sure, it's been a little inconvenient having my local movie theater on that list (after they decided to search my wife's purse when we went to see a film back in 2012, completely unaware of what was lawfully holstered inside of my waistband) we soon found a better place which isn't all that much further away and has food & booze available for order (I just wish I could hit the can while still watching the film).

You want my opinion on the Oregon standoff? Here it is: While I agree with their beefs, I do not agree with their methods.

Want more?

I subscribe to the "four boxes of liberty" view which can be summarized as: "There are four boxes to be used in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury and ammo. Please use in that order."

The nuts in Oregon didn't fully exhaust their options for #1 & #2 and skipped ahead to #4... and now clearly hope #3 will save their butts after their previous resorting to #4.

I do have to chuckle though at the desire from many on the left to kill the lot of them with a drone, gas or pointless head on attacks... ignoring the support of Occupy Wall Street by the left not that long ago... but then who said 'progressives' were consistent?

The delayed law enforcement response was also fully predictable, not because of the color of the skin of the protestors (as supporters of say, the 4th precinct protestors in Minneapolis have been quick to claim), but an institutional memory of previous standoffs of that sort... which your article mentions.

I agree that the feds own more state land in the west than they should, however there are better initial ways to address this... such as the Article V process, something that is gaining steam (though for other reasons). I agree that Dwight & Steven Hammond got raw deals. This was a way to bring attention to both issues... but not a very good way.

Alas I do foresee multiple days where we see large armed conflicts between civilian groups and the federal government... not only because of increased federal encroachment of individual liberties, but because of a sense that #1 & #2 aren't working. The continued existence of Hillary on the campaign trail is an example of this, as is the support for Sanders in opposition... of course both seek to contribute to the decline that neither actually seek to prevent.

[broncofan]

What a long-winded, vacuous pile of nonsense. But thanks for playing. You agree with their beefs? Which were what? That the law should not apply to them and that they should be able to commit waste and arson on federal land.

You also foresee armed conflict between civilian groups and the federal government because of encroachment on individual liberties? Whose civil liberties were encroached upon? Sounds like you want to take up arms against your government as well. That last paragraph of yours is a fantastic portrait of a right-wing nut who knows he's on the wrong side of history. You understand you cannot win at the ballot box so you seek to obstruct the government and are willing to advocate violence to get your way. Only you're too chickenshit to do it yourself so you sit on the sideline and cheerlead morons like the Bundys. Only where are they now?

[trish]

I do have to chuckle though at the desire from many on the left to kill the lot of them with a drone, gas or pointless head on attacks... ignoring the support of Occupy Wall Street by the left not that long ago... but then who said 'progressives' were consistent?You didn't read that opinion in thread. In fact, it's the first time I heard it from anyone. What echo chamber did you learn that from?

Given what you downthumbed (and the history of your posts) one would assume you're not as concerned with the four boxes of liberty as you are with allowing suicidal, unstable men and women (who are prone to take the law into their own hands and forego the advised "order") to carry firearms.


Sorry, but for the most part when I learn that a business asks that I not carry on their property, I respect that desire... by adding them to my unapproved-vendors list and simply not patronizing them anymore. (boldfacing mine) The only example you give is when you didn't. Yes you no longer patronize them, but you did not respect (and do not respect - in both senses of the word) their desire.

[broncofan]

After I posted this morning I was thinking about the exact section of Bob's post that Trish highlighted. The difference between Bob and me (and Trish and others) is that he agrees with the most outrageous Republican policies. If there are people on the left who actually believe those at Malheur should have been treated like the most dangerous terrorists, I seriously question their judgment.

Do I think the protesters should be treated like Al Qaeda members or other militant Islamic terrorists? Hell no. If it had been Al Qaeda they would have tried to kill anyone whose path they crossed and the chance of there being an explosive or incendiary device at the refuge would be very high. Treat them like people who have committed felonies and who you are trying to bring in without harming. That's why I linked the Atlantic article.

The feds played the long game and were successful. If you know who is breaking the law, you do not have to be in a rush to arrest them. Do so when you can without subjecting officers to unnecessary risk and build a solid case against them.

[broncofan]

What is interesting about Bob's four boxes of liberty is that they imply that if you lose out in the democratic process you should resort to violence. Soap box, ballot box, jury, and ammo. That means if you get on your soap box and people think you're wrong you then hope to elect leaders who agree with you. If that does not work you look to the courts and if that is unsuccessful you take up arms. There are certain policies I do not agree with and that cannot be redressed by the courts. I'm certainly not taking up arms against my government.

These sound like the words of a man who does not respect the democratic process.

[trish]

Only if it goes his way.

[dreamon]

These sound like the words of a man who does not respect the democratic process.

The idea originates with Frederick Douglas. He didn't include the soap box, just ballot, jury and ammo.

[broncofan]

The idea originates with Frederick Douglas. He didn't include the soap box, just ballot, jury and ammo.
Did you consider that Frederick Douglass faced an actual deprivation of liberty? I did not know that the statement originated with him or in what context he said it. But as a former slave and abolitionist, he is someone who actually had very good reason to distrust his government. For most of his life he was not allowed to participate in the democratic process.

Don't you feel at all ashamed for invoking the words of a man who suffered one of the worst deprivations of liberty conceivable and using it to justify arson and other crimes?

[trish]

1863: Frederick Douglas, in a time of declared Civil War, called men of color to join and fight for the Union. "Men of color: To arms! To arms!" It was indeed a to arms. He did not then, as you do now, condone armed sedition against The United States of America and its elected government.

[trish]

Cliven Bundy was denied bail today. Hooray!

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2016/02/16/1486205/-34-page-doc-just-slams-Cliven-Bundy-in-court

Some excepts


Bundy is lawless and violent. He does not recognize federal courts – claiming they are illegitimate – does not recognize federal law, refuses to obey federal court orders, has already used force and violence against federal law enforcement officers while they were enforcing federal court orders, nearly causing catastrophic loss of life or injury to others. He has pledged to do so again in the future to keep federal law enforcement officers from enforcing the law against him. As of the date of this hearing, he continues to violate federal court orders and continues to possess the proceeds of his illegal activities.
Bundy is currently charged with crimes of violence including using and brandishing firearms in connection with crimes of violence under Title 18, United States Code, Section 924(c). As such, the Bail Reform Act presumes that there areno conditions or combination of conditions that will ensure the safety of the community. 18 U.S.C. § 3142(e)(3)(B). Here, no evidence has been adduced during the investigation of the instant charges that even remotely hints at a rebuttal to that presumption. In fact, all the evidence suggests that Bundy will continue to act lawlessly, will not abide by court orders, and will use violence to ensure that federal laws are not enforced as to him.



While Bundy claims he is a cattle rancher, his ranching operation – to the extent it can be called that – is unconventional if not bizarre. Rather than manage and control his cattle, he lets them run wild on the public lands with little, if any, human interaction until such time when he traps them and hauls them off to be sold or slaughtered for his own consumption. He does not vaccinate or treat his cattle for disease; does not employ cowboys to control and herd them; does not manage or control breeding; has no knowledge of where all the cattle are located at any given time; rarely brands them before he captures them; and has to bait the minto traps in order to gather them.

[dreamon]

Did you consider that Frederick Douglass faced an actual deprivation of liberty? I did not know that the statement originated with him or in what context he said it. But as a former slave and abolitionist, he is someone who actually had very good reason to distrust his government. For most of his life he was not allowed to participate in the democratic process.

Don't you feel at all ashamed for invoking the words of a man who suffered one of the worst deprivations of liberty conceivable and using it to justify arson and other crimes?

Did you consider that even in modern times, people face a deprivation of liberty? You and I both do every day, our government continues to violate our liberties, spying on us through the NSA, forcibly garnishing wages, using those wages to murder innocent people in other countries (as well as our own), regulating our rights to participate on the free market, limiting our Second Amendment rights, limiting our Freedom of Speech and much more?

[trish]

Oh you poor poor boy. Your "rights" to participate in a market free of regulation against fraud and deception are being abridged! How awful. You and your neighbors can't buy shoulder fired missile launchers without attracting the attentions of nosy government bureaucrats. How horrible for you. You can't even let your dog shit in the park without some health official nagging you to pick it up. Am I right? I had a right to go bird-watching at Malheur Wildlife Refuge this winter, every person in America did. It's our land. It belongs to all of us collectively. Then a handful of armed yahoos who don't understand the difference between democracy and anarchy took it over and vandalized the place. Such hard lives we live, right? I mean compared to that of Frederick Douglass. He only had to endure the knowledge that perhaps someday in the future a couple of assholes in a pornographic chat room will twist his words to suit their own conclusions. That's what you get when you learn to read and write.

Speaking of rights, I'm wondering if I'll be turned away at the voting booth this November because of new State voter registration laws. I'm sure you're against them too.

[martin48]

All you need in America is a fucking gun. Not certain why you are even bothering to have a election.

[broncofan]

Did you consider that even in modern times, people face a deprivation of liberty?
None of the examples you give. I have difficulty comparing the withholding of taxes to a person being classified as property. I don't think the government preventing consumer products from having lead in them is comparable either. Spying by looking at metadata and other electronic transmissions can be intrusive but is trivial compared to being separated from your relatives, subjected to forced labor for no wage, and being beaten or killed at the whim of a slave-owner. All of your examples are shit and an embarrassment. Thumbs down my post....it doesn't change anything and can be easily reciprocated.

[broncofan]

Even if the NSA intrusions were fourth amendment violations, there are at least other interests the government is trying to safeguard in the process. The remedy for constitutional violations is that evidence is excluded from trial, laws are struck down as unconstitutional, or officers are enjoined from taking certain actions. It is contemplated as part of life that there will be judicial remedies for constitutional violations.

The institution of slavery by contrast was something extraordinary. There was no weighing of interests; it was the objectification and commodification of your fellow human beings. It was inhumane, sadistic, and greedy. It should not be placed on a continuum with everyday intrusions that a court may remedy by issuing an injunction or by excluding evidence from trial. Nobody who valued African-Americans as people could have ever attempted to justify slavery as a balancing of interests. So, it does not make sense for it to be compared to potential constitutional violations where a balancing of rights and exigency takes place.

I just wanted to add that distinction to my previous conclusion that your complaints are entirely trivial.

[broncofan]

It would also be nice if some of these anti-government nuts would put the same energy into civil rights advocacy as they put into abusing the memory of former slaves and abolitionists. Why is slavery not used as a lesson for how we should treat minorities but instead the basis of flimsy slippery slope arguments by organizations and groups that despise minorities in any other context? Enforcing federal law on federal land is not the first step to tyranny. If the government spies on you, you don't not know how Frederick Douglass felt. . Please children. We have a court system and you can challenge virtually any harm committed against you.

[dreamon]

Even if the NSA intrusions were fourth amendment violations, there are at least other interests the government is trying to safeguard in the process. The remedy for constitutional violations is that evidence is excluded from trial, laws are struck down as unconstitutional, or officers are enjoined from taking certain actions. It is contemplated as part of life that there will be judicial remedies for constitutional violations.

The institution of slavery by contrast was something extraordinary. There was no weighing of interests; it was the objectification and commodification of your fellow human beings. It was inhumane, sadistic, and greedy. It should not be placed on a continuum with everyday intrusions that a court may remedy by issuing an injunction or by excluding evidence from trial. Nobody who valued African-Americans as people could have ever attempted to justify slavery as a balancing of interests. So, it does not make sense for it to be compared to potential constitutional violations where a balancing of rights and exigency takes place.

I just wanted to add that distinction to my previous conclusion that your complaints are entirely trivial.

You probably consider what Apple is doing to be obstructionist. What a dick.

[trish]

The Apple controversy is probably a good topic for a different thread.

If it were possible to hack into that one phone (was it Farook's) without creating a universal software-key for all Apple phones, then I would say Apple should comply with the subpoena. This (I think) would maintain the personal privacy of the larger public and provide valuable information for keeping the larger public safe from terrorists. On the downside it would not be so good for Apple's reputation and it would put wedge in the door making many us feel less secure in our privacy.

As Apple explains it, it is not possible to hack into just one phone. They would have to write software that is essentially a universal key. There would be no way to guarantee the security of key. Not only might law enforcement agencies use it in unwarranted ways, but it would inevitably leak into the public domain where criminals would use it to commit fraud, theft and other nefarious crimes.

One question is, is Apple correct? They're certainly between a rock and hard place. Most hard-ass-let's-carpet-bomb-'em-to-oblivion types are against anyone or anything that might provide protection for a terrorist. Libertarians, on the other knee, jerk the other way. Both are right wing stances. The rest of us are aware of the complexities and nuances of the issue.

Currently, I lean in favor of Apple (as if any action will depend upon my leaning - dickish or not) because I think the case they make is probably correct. Certainly if Apple writes a skeleton key, it will eventually end up in the hands of criminals. The risk of being a victim from illicit use of such a key is (I think) greater than the risk of being a victim of terrorism. The only problem with this argument is it relies on an assumption (Apple has to make a universal key to crack Farook's phone) that I'm taking on authority (Apple's). Another seemingly relevant question is: once the key is made, can all other phones be quickly updated by having customers download and install modified OS's that defeat the key?

[trish]

I created another thread for the continuation of the topic of Apple vs National Security.

[broncofan]

You probably consider what Apple is doing to be obstructionist. What a dick.
There was nothing in my post to indicate that.

In the apple case, it is not a matter of whether the government has cause to search one phone, as it appears they do. It is whether they should have access to a universal key that would make it possible for them to search other phones (even if they promise they will not).

Nothing in my previous post should be construed to indicate I am okay with fourth amendment violations either. I was only saying that when one's constitutional rights have been violated, it is not cause for rebellion but is redressable by a court (often it is a court that needs to arbitrate whether there has been a violation to begin with; this is one of the main functions of the judiciary!).

[broncofan]

That was the "even if" part of my post you seized on. I don't think the Bundys have been unjustly deprived of liberty. As they sit in jail cells they have been deprived of liberty, but nothing there is inconsistent with due process.

[broncofan]

I'm not sure what you disagree with in these two posts Dreamon. There's something almost reptilian about your thumbing techniques. I am not saying this as a taunt...but can your tactics be construed as an admission that you don't have a rebuttal? It's almost as if you're saying, "aww shucks, he pointed out something true, irrefutable, and that I don't like....let me express my displeasure".

[trish]

Nail on the head...a little tiny head (wondering now if dreamon's name is Brad).

[fred41]

I'm not sure what you disagree with in these two posts Dreamon. There's something almost reptilian about your thumbing techniques. I am not saying this as a taunt...but can your tactics be construed as an admission that you don't have a rebuttal? It's almost as if you're saying, "aww shucks, he pointed out something true, irrefutable, and that I don't like....let me express my displeasure".

You're trying to debate a guy who's incapable of it...he'll never see you're viewpoint or care to because it may go against his personal beliefs that he clings to like a religion. There's never a gray area with a person like this. I new that the moment he spewed out that Robert Finicum was assassinated - even though the evidence obviously indicated otherwise. This makes him no better than a ranting U.F.O. conspiracy theorist.
Completely pointless to argue with him...unless it's fun.

[fred41]

"knew"...sorry.

[broncofan]

This makes him no better than a ranting U.F.O. conspiracy theorist.
Completely pointless to argue with him...unless it's fun.
Yeah at least it's something to bounce ideas off of...but a real UFO conspiracy theorist might give you a clever nickname like brooding mouse or uncle leo:).

[fred41]

Yeah at least it's something to bounce ideas off of...but a real UFO conspiracy theorist might give you a clever nickname like brooding mouse or uncle leo:).

Wow... remember her? Scary.

[broncofan]

I new that the moment he spewed out that Robert Finicum was assassinated - even though the evidence obviously indicated otherwise.
What I love about conspiracy people is that they always act like the gov is not just pulling one over on them but leaving little clues to rub their nose in it. I can just hear one of them saying, "Not only do they kill the man but then they publish a video of his cold-blooded murder. They're not even trying to hide their duplicity anymore. That video was a warning shot to the whole movement."

Imagine that. They publish a video of the thing. It's almost like they thought it speaks for itself. Apparently not.

[hippifried]

COMMIES!!!!!
Us troo Merkins in't gunnuh let yuu satanist athiest pinkos take ar guns, libertee, & God givin corprut manafez destiny, & enslave us to the red menuss of the welfare abortionists...


OBTW: Doesn't that dude gettin' snuffed turn this what was a funny fiasco lnto potential felony murder charges all around? No probs... President Trump can grant pardons.