Chelsea Manning -punishment or persecution?

[Stavros]

Most of you will know that Chelsea Manning was sentenced to 35 years in prison after being found guilty of espionage. She is serving her sentence in Fort Leavenworth Men's Military Prison. A report in The Independent today claims that she may be placed in solitary confinement for reasons quoted below, which contain a reference to an expired tube of toothpaste which makes you wonder what planet these prison officials live on.

I am not condoning espionage, but the sentence is the punishment, to keep adding to it for trivial reasons to me smacks of persecution, and that surely is not part of the deal.


Chelsea Manning ‘could be placed in solitary confinement indefinitely’ for having Caitlyn Jenner issue of Vanity Fair

The US whistleblower Chelsea Manning could be placed in solitary confinement for allegedly being in possession of the Caitlyn Jenner issue of a Vanity Fair, her lawyer said on Wednesday.
Manning is currently serving a 35-year prison sentence after being convicted of espionage for leaking over 700,000 classified documents to Wikileaks while working for the military in Iraq.
Manning, who is transgender, is currently serving her prison sentence at the Fort Leavenworth men’s military prison, where her hearing in front of a panel of three people will take place in private, according to her lawyer Nancy Hollander.
Manning was also allegedly found with other reading material, an expired tube of toothpaste and is accused of disorderly conduct for sweeping food onto the floor and of showing disrespect, according to the Associated Press.
Her supporters have launched an online petition claiming she is being punished for “speaking out” and listed the four charges against her, which include ‘medicine misuse’ for the expired toothpaste.


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/chelsea-manning-could-be-placed-in-solitary-confinement-indefinitely-for-having-caitlyn-jenner-issue-of-vanity-fair-10453067.html

[TS Evelyn Summers]

I Just HAVE to know....What he hell is up with the "EXPIRED" toothpaste.....What is so DIRE about an expired tube of toothpaste ?!?!?! That is has to be part of "Prison Rules"

[JenniferParisHusband]

It's the military. For those who were in the US Armed Forces, this strangely makes sense. There are rules for everything. The more you screw up, the more restrictive things become. I have cleaned my barracks with a toothbrush, I've seen DI's go behind beds and foot lockers and even under your mattress with white gloves looking for the tiniest speck of dirt. As you progress in their world, things ease up. I lived off base for a while after basic, and no one came and checked on my apartment. But my duty station was required to be kept clean.

So where she is in prison, there are going to be a lot more rules, more structure. She is going to have almost no say in the material that comes in and out. It will come from a controlled prison "library" and will have been approved by the people in charge, and provided, when allowed by her superiors, at their leisure and from an approved selection of items. I can't imagine they would let her have a book about Anonymous, or for that matter anything controversial. Her mail, anything sent from the outside, will be read. If that Vanity Fair and other material wasn't in the library, it's contraband. If it was supposed to be returned at a certain time and wasn't, it's contraband. If she was already on disciplinary restrictions and wasn't supposed to have it, it's contraband. See where this is going? Everything is controlled, and subject to approval by the people in command of the facility. But don't do the crime if you can't do the time.

If she has an expired tube of toothpaste, it could be that she is not keeping up with her hygiene and this was extra, or there was another purpose for it which is against their code of conduct, which also made it contraband. Can you get high on toothpaste? Holy hell, that would make my trips to the dentist a lot better. It could simply be that it's the government at work, and they aren't permitted to allow expired "medicine" and are required to make sure things are un-expired. It doesn't make a lot of sense if you weren't in the military, but if you've been in, you can kind of see what they are doing.

The sweeping food onto the floor, showing disrespect, yeah that's going to earn you persecution. I got persecuted by a Sgt. for not having my underwear folded a certain way. Extra miles and guard duty. It sucked, and that was just during BMT. One of the guys in my flight got caught with a Walkman. He failed basic, had to redo it, and the whole time they were gunning for him, and since he was in my flight, they were gunning for the rest of us by association. It is a different way of life. There will be punishment, but you have to respect the stripes, or your life is going to be miserable, even if you aren't in prison and in the working military. She isn't doing herself any favors by doing that. As for the tribunal, those are never public. So that's just SOP.

For the next 35 years, Chelsea's life is going to be incredibly regimented to almost the last little detail. It's not persecution. You know all this is a possible outcome, or at least should know, when you go through your BMT. I actively tried to avoid that outcome while I was in, and thankfully succeeded.

I don't really think any of this is persecution for speaking out, it just feels like this is the usual military thing. I've actually heard of worse. This is how they do punishment, and it could probably be much much worse. That's my opinion though.

[Stavros]

It's the military. For those who were in the US Armed Forces, this strangely makes sense. There are rules for everything. The more you screw up, the more restrictive things become. I have cleaned my barracks with a toothbrush, I've seen DI's go behind beds and foot lockers and even under your mattress with white gloves looking for the tiniest speck of dirt. As you progress in their world, things ease up. I lived off base for a while after basic, and no one came and checked on my apartment. But my duty station was required to be kept clean.

So where she is in prison, there are going to be a lot more rules, more structure. She is going to have almost no say in the material that comes in and out. It will come from a controlled prison "library" and will have been approved by the people in charge, and provided, when allowed by her superiors, at their leisure and from an approved selection of items. I can't imagine they would let her have a book about Anonymous, or for that matter anything controversial. Her mail, anything sent from the outside, will be read. If that Vanity Fair and other material wasn't in the library, it's contraband. If it was supposed to be returned at a certain time and wasn't, it's contraband. If she was already on disciplinary restrictions and wasn't supposed to have it, it's contraband. See where this is going? Everything is controlled, and subject to approval by the people in command of the facility. But don't do the crime if you can't do the time.

If she has an expired tube of toothpaste, it could be that she is not keeping up with her hygiene and this was extra, or there was another purpose for it which is against their code of conduct, which also made it contraband. Can you get high on toothpaste? Holy hell, that would make my trips to the dentist a lot better. It could simply be that it's the government at work, and they aren't permitted to allow expired "medicine" and are required to make sure things are un-expired. It doesn't make a lot of sense if you weren't in the military, but if you've been in, you can kind of see what they are doing.

The sweeping food onto the floor, showing disrespect, yeah that's going to earn you persecution. I got persecuted by a Sgt. for not having my underwear folded a certain way. Extra miles and guard duty. It sucked, and that was just during BMT. One of the guys in my flight got caught with a Walkman. He failed basic, had to redo it, and the whole time they were gunning for him, and since he was in my flight, they were gunning for the rest of us by association. It is a different way of life. There will be punishment, but you have to respect the stripes, or your life is going to be miserable, even if you aren't in prison and in the working military. She isn't doing herself any favors by doing that. As for the tribunal, those are never public. So that's just SOP.

For the next 35 years, Chelsea's life is going to be incredibly regimented to almost the last little detail. It's not persecution. You know all this is a possible outcome, or at least should know, when you go through your BMT. I actively tried to avoid that outcome while I was in, and thankfully succeeded.

I don't really think any of this is persecution for speaking out, it just feels like this is the usual military thing. I've actually heard of worse. This is how they do punishment, and it could probably be much much worse. That's my opinion though.

What this well-informed post reveals is not so much the obsession with order in military institutions, but the practical futility of it in a prison.

Basic training to turn a human being into a ruthless and efficient killing machine may have some logic to it, even if, in the case of the USA, there is no evidence on the battlefield that it works (the USA's ruthless killing machines have not won a war since 1945), but Chelsea Manning is not going to be released from prison back to the armed forces and fight for her country, her military career is over as I assume is also the case with most long-term prisoners at Leavenworth. If prisoners were going to be sent back into the field then maintaining them in peak physical and mental condition could at least be justified to a degree, but what purpose does it serve to impose combat readiness on someone who will never again be in combat?

It enables Manning's guards to bring out the inner sadist, to practise tormenting the enemy captive in a cell when there is no enemy on the field, to find a human being and on the slightest pretext insult, abuse, intimidate and seek to destroy. In other words, there is no justification for it. The sentence and the prison are the punishment; the rest is coordinated torture. But hey, it's the USA, where torture as standard practice has been integrated into the military through the rule book. In a mature society, this sort of thing would not happen.

The US military has changed before, it is now time to change again. Or move Manning into a Federal prison.

[JenniferParisHusband]

What this well-informed post reveals is not so much the obsession with order in military institutions, but the practical futility of it in a prison.

Basic training to turn a human being into a ruthless and efficient killing machine may have some logic to it, even if, in the case of the USA, there is no evidence on the battlefield that it works (the USA's ruthless killing machines have not won a war since 1945), but Chelsea Manning is not going to be released from prison back to the armed forces and fight for her country, her military career is over as I assume is also the case with most long-term prisoners at Leavenworth. If prisoners were going to be sent back into the field then maintaining them in peak physical and mental condition could at least be justified to a degree, but what purpose does it serve to impose combat readiness on someone who will never again be in combat?

It enables Manning's guards to bring out the inner sadist, to practise tormenting the enemy captive in a cell when there is no enemy on the field, to find a human being and on the slightest pretext insult, abuse, intimidate and seek to destroy. In other words, there is no justification for it. The sentence and the prison are the punishment; the rest is coordinated torture. But hey, it's the USA, where torture as standard practice has been integrated into the military through the rule book. In a mature society, this sort of thing would not happen.

The US military has changed before, it is now time to change again. Or move Manning into a Federal prison.

Part of the problem is that when you enlist, you're signing a contract with the government whereby you volunteer to suspend a lot of your rights. One of those is that you are subject to the Military's Uniform Code of Military Justice. There's no draft, no one is forcing you to join. You are choosing of your own free will to do this. You know, or should know, that the laws you are used to in the normal world are no longer the laws you have in the military world. In some ways, the UCMJ is better than what you have in the real world, in a lot of ways, worse. One of the ways it is worse, is that the Military has exclusive jurisdiction over you. You can't move to a Federal Court, because the Federal Court has no jurisdiction over a member of the military, who committed a crime against the service, or on a military base. If you go to a VA Medical Center, even as a civilian, and get a speeding ticket, that's not a local court, or a Federal Court, it is a special magistrate under the US Armed Forces Command. (at least as of 2002 it still was, that might have changed.) The Military Justice System is a completely different entity from a Federal Court. That's the first thing to understand.

Second thing you have to understand. When you commit a crime in the military, you don't automatically get a discharge for bad conduct. If you go to jail, you are still considered active service, only you are on duty restrictions, which means whatever hitch you signed on for, it paused. If you signed on for 3 years, and you have 6 months to go, and you go to jail for 10 years, you are considered to have 6 months left of your required service time to fulfill. Now they may give you the boot the moment you walk out of prison, but you are still active duty, and you still may be called upon in a time of war. So yeah, they are going to keep Chelsea Manning in a state of preparedness, in case there is an event where she would be drafted back into service. It would be an incredibly desperate measure on the part of the Armed Forces though, and she would most likely get one of the crappiest duties ever. But, if she has a skill that is needed, they could offer her reduced time in exchange for her service in a time of emergency. So for her sake, it's best that she is kept in shape, and military discipline in case the need arises.

The average sentence (as of 1991, when I went through basic) was 21 years.

I think you misunderstood me when I was saying they could make her life hell. And, again, I'm basing all this off what the one guy in my flight told me about military prison. Like I said, a military prison is still military. You still run, albeit in a circle, or confined area, you still do your morning PT, you are still required to maintain appearance, conduct drills and maintain a general state of readiness. But, unlike say Riker's Island, she will also be learning a trade, and have assigned duties within in the prison. The one I always remember them saying you could become was a barber. But I know they do other work there as well. Some of my uniforms had pieces made in the Leavenworth prison. But the quality of those jobs and duties is based on your ability to follow orders. So Chelsea may be learning a trade that is highly sought after, and may earn her slightly more money than another trade (they do still earn income, but I think it's like a max of 20 cents per day or something. and they can spend it from what I remember being told, up to like $40 per year, and only on approved items.) So if they want to make her life hell for disobeying orders, they prevent her from working a good job, and making her work a more labor intensive one. If they want to make her life hell for throwing her food on the floor, she has to do her morning PT, her job, and her normal duties, plus maybe clean latrines, scrub the floors of common areas and other work. It's not sadism, but it is punishment. Combine that with the order, and restrictions of normal military life, it can be overwhelming. If they want to make her life rough, she could be out of her cell and working 19 hours a day, no access to any reading materials, no access to spending whatever income she has earned, solitary, or some other form of restriction or change of duties.

If you want to talk about Sadism, talk to anyone who served in the Air Force about their BMT. There is a place in the mess called "The Snake Pit." Every new airman has to walk by a bunch of DI's who verbally abuse, humiliate and denigrate them, on a daily basis. You get assigned to guard your barracks and ordered not to let anyone in who isn't part of your flight, or a C.O. and then someone of equal rank to the person who gave you that order comes by at 3 am and orders you to let them in. When you don't, the verbal abuse starts, as do the orders to do things like push ups, which you can't do since you are not allowed to end your guard duty, then you get threats for not following orders. I've seen people have nervous breakdowns over these kinds of things, and that's pretty much from day 1. That's sadism, but you know you are going to get it from day 1, because that's what you agreed to when you signed on.

Again, having served, I don't see any of what they are doing to be sadist or torture. I don't think its cruel or unusual, I do think it is just the normal military standard operating procedure. If I were her, I'd much rather be in Leavenworth than be Sylvia Boots in gen-pop at Vacaville or wherever she is currently serving. Chelsea has it way easier than Sylvia, and I guarantee there is much less sadism in Leavenworth. If what she is going through is torture, pretty much every American who wore the uniform should be suing the government. But then again, I knew what I was getting into when I signed up and made that choice. So did Chelsea.

As for the USA, if you want to make torture allegations and talk of "mature societies" people tend to forget that we weren't alone in all that. There's a country with whom we have a "special relationship" to, that seemed to be willing to let us do their dirty work on their prisoners, and were happy to have that iformation; and on occasion got their hands dirty too. You could Google Cpl. Donald Payne, and Baha Mousa, just as two of MANY examples. And we won't even go into tactics used in Northern Ireland as recently as 2014. So let's back off the high and mighty train a bit. That is just going to devolve this conversation into a flame war. There's enough evil being spread around by all parties that I don't think there are any innocents out there, and certainly no "Mature Societies."

[Stavros]

I have no interest in sparking 'flames' of any sort, and you skilfully describe the military as a 'state within a state' with its own rules and justice and education system, but you could at least admit that Chelsea Manning is not suited to that military life and should be removed from the military state completely. It is not about making comparisons with the British armed forces, because the US military has shown a greater capacity for change than its British counterpart, which is why I have suggested change is still an option although one notes that it is the military that is opposed to the closure of Guantanamo Bay, and that Jeb Bush according to the headline in the newspaper 'refuses to rule out use of torture if he becomes President'.

In Manning's specific case she ought not to be, and realistically is unlikely to be part of any future military operations. The extent to which the US military runs its own affairs, and to the extent that it is exempt from the Constitution is a matter of debate which you can have in the USA, in the meantime the mature thing to do is to accept that in Manning's case this system simply does not work and it is better for both if she is taken out of it.

[JenniferParisHusband]

Oh on that I completely agree. She was never cut out for life in the service. She never should have gone in, and I think they would have to be incredibly desperate to need her, even in a state of emergency now. Yep, we totally agree on that.

But she did sign up voluntarily. She knew what she was getting into, but didn't know herself well enough to know if she could handle it. It's a little late for that now. Hindsight is always a wonderful thing, but it never changes the past. She volunteered knowing this was an outcome, now she has to live with it. Suited for it or not, it's her life for the next 35 years. If I rob a bank tomorrow, or murder someone (which I won't, because I don't want to ever go to prison), no one is going to take pity on me and move me to a lesser prison because I couldn't hack it. It's like pacifists who sign up to get a "free education" and then refuse to fight. They know what they are in for, its hard to justify the end result when they decide not to follow the rules. There's nothing special about her case, other than she's transgender. As I said, I'd rather be Chelsea in Leavenworth than Sylvia Boots in Vacaville, even with all the military BS.

Don't get me started on Jeb. Another chicken-hawk who never served and has no clue. I feel bad for the US soldier who is tortured now, because every other country looks at us and says "If it's ok for the USA to do it, it is fine for us too." If Bush gets elected, it will definitely be time for me to try to get my UK citizenship back.

[RallyCola]

i'll be honest...prison sucks but if you are in there, you probably did something to deserve it. the guilty far out weigh the innocent and i don't believe that prison should be for rehabilitation, it should be for punishment and punishment alone. ABA doesn't work on felons...you are never going to teach a hardened criminal replacement behaviors therefore, i'm somewhat indifferent to what happens to someone when they go in to a max security prison. it is cold and i realize that our system of justice is unjust, but post conviction, life should be so horrible on the inside that it is the ultimate deterrent do breaking the law in the first place.

[gugaxamot]

The guards will probably use both of her holes for pleasure as she can't get pregnant.

[Jericho]

The guards will...

Get back to the kiddies table...The adults are talking!

[Stavros]

From the New York Times in the last hour-

WASHINGTON — President Obama on Tuesday largely commuted the remaining prison sentence of Chelsea Manning, the army intelligence analyst convicted of an enormous 2010 leak that revealed American military and diplomatic activities across the world, disrupted the administration, and made WikiLeaks, the recipient of those disclosures, famous.
The decision by Mr. Obama rescued Ms. Manning, who twice tried to commit suicide last year (https://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/05/us/chelsea-manning-tried-committing-suicide-a-second-time-in-october.html?action=click&contentCollection=U.S.&module=RelatedCoverage&region=Marginalia&pgtype=article), from an uncertain future as a transgender woman incarcerated at the male military prison (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/13/us/chelsea-manning-sentence-obama.html) at Fort Leavenworth, Kan. She has been jailed for nearly seven years, and her 35-year sentence was by far the longest punishment ever imposed in the United States for a leak conviction.
Now, under the terms of Mr. Obama’s commutation announced by the White House on Tuesday, Ms. Manning is set to be freed on May 17 of this year, rather than in 2045.
The commutation also relieved the Department of Defense of the difficult responsibility of her incarceration as she pushes for treatment for her gender dysphoria — including sex reassignment surgery — that the military has no experience providing.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/17/us/politics/obama-commutes-bulk-of-chelsea-mannings-sentence.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=a-lede-package-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news

[Post Op Preferred]

In light of her upcoming availability, http://www.thedailybeast.com/cheats/2017/01/18/obama-defends-chelsea-manning-decision.html?via=desktop&source=copyurl is Grooby scheduling a shoot for May, 2017?

[Stavros]

In light of her upcoming availability,is Grooby scheduling a shoot for May, 2017?

A comment so crass one wonders why you made the effort to post it.

[SanDiegoPervySage]

Ugh....at least that fucker isn't getting any benefits as far as I understand.

[ElectricWoody]

I dont know about you all, but I stand on two feet.

[hippifried]

I've come across a lot of trans folks across social media claiming that Manning should get a pass due to "gender dysphoria". Huh? A while back, there was babble about using that argument as a mental defect appeal. And for the most part, the trans community was elated.
WHAT THE FUCK?!?!?
That's like saying trans is a mental illness. That anybody who alters their gender is confused, crazy, and can't be trusted. I think everyone in here should be glad that argument didn't go anywhere. All y'all know it's bullshit.

It's just as much BS to give immunity to someone just because you think you have something in common, or that you understand their thoughts. And it's BS to justify a crime because you disagree with the victim or get all drooling over the rhetorical political theology being spouted by the criminal.

Manning committed espionage with malice aforethought, violating 2 oaths to do it. President Obama says time served is enough. Ok. It's a commutation, not a pardon. Still a convicted felon. Loss of some privileges. No passport. Lots of love/hate mail, marriage proposals, dick pics, & threats. Maybe the 'gofundme' page will afford some income. Maybe not. Watching all this unfold might be entertaining, but there's no other reason to pay it any mind.

[runningdownthatdream]

What this well-informed post reveals is not so much the obsession with order in military institutions, but the practical futility of it in a prison.

Basic training to turn a human being into a ruthless and efficient killing machine may have some logic to it, even if, in the case of the USA, there is no evidence on the battlefield that it works (the USA's ruthless killing machines have not won a war since 1945), but Chelsea Manning is not going to be released from prison back to the armed forces and fight for her country, her military career is over as I assume is also the case with most long-term prisoners at Leavenworth. If prisoners were going to be sent back into the field then maintaining them in peak physical and mental condition could at least be justified to a degree, but what purpose does it serve to impose combat readiness on someone who will never again be in combat?

It enables Manning's guards to bring out the inner sadist, to practise tormenting the enemy captive in a cell when there is no enemy on the field, to find a human being and on the slightest pretext insult, abuse, intimidate and seek to destroy. In other words, there is no justification for it. The sentence and the prison are the punishment; the rest is coordinated torture. But hey, it's the USA, where torture as standard practice has been integrated into the military through the rule book. In a mature society, this sort of thing would not happen.

The US military has changed before, it is now time to change again. Or move Manning into a Federal prison.

Come now, surely you aren't suggesting only the good ole USA has inculcated torture 'into the military through the rule book'? This is just the human state of being: when in a position of power - particularly over someone that the majority has condemned - then do your best to do the worst. In fact the savagery just increases the more the person protests about trivial things like their human rights. Clearly you have never experienced either the police, CPS, or judiciary in the first person. I have. The only thing that separates that triumvirate from your run-of-the-mill thug is they are sanctioned by 'we the people' and therefore far less likely to ever wind up behind bars.

On the topic of Chelsea and her crime and punishment: she broke the rules and by doing that willfully placed herself in the hands of her tormentors. However, what she did - regardless of her personal motivations - helped to disclose to the light of day how truly awful a world we live in and how corrupt people in power really are. Ultimately, though, it was a meaningless action as business will go on as usual albeit under better cover. I'm glad she will be released early - in the greater scope of things what she did is substantially less harmful to mankind and even her country than what was being done by those she exposed. I hope the remainder of her life will be spent peacefully.

[runningdownthatdream]

I've come across a lot of trans folks across social media claiming that Manning should get a pass due to "gender dysphoria". Huh? A while back, there was babble about using that argument as a mental defect appeal. And for the most part, the trans community was elated.
WHAT THE FUCK?!?!?
That's like saying trans is a mental illness. That anybody who alters their gender is confused, crazy, and can't be trusted. I think everyone in here should be glad that argument didn't go anywhere. All y'all know it's bullshit.

It's just as much BS to give immunity to someone just because you think you have something in common, or that you understand their thoughts. And it's BS to justify a crime because you disagree with the victim or get all drooling over the rhetorical political theology being spouted by the criminal.

Manning committed espionage with malice aforethought, violating 2 oaths to do it. President Obama says time served is enough. Ok. It's a commutation, not a pardon. Still a convicted felon. Loss of some privileges. No passport. Lots of love/hate mail, marriage proposals, dick pics, & threats. Maybe the 'gofundme' page will afford some income. Maybe not. Watching all this unfold might be entertaining, but there's no other reason to pay it any mind.

I'm with you on the gender dysphoria thing. Whoever was advising her was clearly more interested in gaining her freedom than being sensitive to the transgender condition. Facing a 35-year imprisonment and particularly of the kind she has been subjected to, I can't say I blame them for trying everything they could think of.

As far as what she did - breaking of oaths and what have you - I think sometimes one should listen to the moral imperative over the laws of the land. I hate to haul out the Nazi reference but it's particularly applicable here. You can't prosecute the SS for NOT refusing to execute their orders but then decide to prosecute and persecute your own soldier for exposing your heinous actions. An enlightened nation would have said thank you to Chelsea Manning.

[SanDiegoPervySage]

I've come across a lot of trans folks across social media claiming that Manning should get a pass due to "gender dysphoria". Huh? A while back, there was babble about using that argument as a mental defect appeal. And for the most part, the trans community was elated.
WHAT THE FUCK?!?!?
That's like saying trans is a mental illness. That anybody who alters their gender is confused, crazy, and can't be trusted. I think everyone in here should be glad that argument didn't go anywhere. All y'all know it's bullshit.

It's just as much BS to give immunity to someone just because you think you have something in common, or that you understand their thoughts. And it's BS to justify a crime because you disagree with the victim or get all drooling over the rhetorical political theology being spouted by the criminal.

Manning committed espionage with malice aforethought, violating 2 oaths to do it. President Obama says time served is enough. Ok. It's a commutation, not a pardon. Still a convicted felon. Loss of some privileges. No passport. Lots of love/hate mail, marriage proposals, dick pics, & threats. Maybe the 'gofundme' page will afford some income. Maybe not. Watching all this unfold might be entertaining, but there's no other reason to pay it any mind.

Get a pass? That's a kick in the face to the trans military members who are serving and can do their damn job. Mental illness my ass.

[Laphroaig]

A comment so crass one wonders why you made the effort to post it.

Agreed, it's almost as idiotic as Gugaxamots earlier comment in this thread. Moreover, he's posted this not long after complaining about trolling in another thread. People in glasss houses...

[Stavros]

Come now, surely you aren't suggesting only the good ole USA has inculcated torture 'into the military through the rule book'? This is just the human state of being: when in a position of power - particularly over someone that the majority has condemned - then do your best to do the worst. In fact the savagery just increases the more the person protests about trivial things like their human rights. Clearly you have never experienced either the police, CPS, or judiciary in the first person. I have. The only thing that separates that triumvirate from your run-of-the-mill thug is they are sanctioned by 'we the people' and therefore far less likely to ever wind up behind bars.


I disagree with this for the simple reason that Manning has the constitutional right under the 8th Amendment not to receive 'cruel and unusual punishment', as is also true of all of her fellow Americans. To dismiss this because 'in reality' prison is what it is and is a form of hell, gives a free pass to anyone in the prison system and outside it who chooses to disregard both the law and constitution of the USA, and a prisoner's human rights.

Manning was placed in solitary confinement after attempting suicide, but this resulted in what appears to be an additional form of punishment, as I remarked upon in my original post, making one wonder if indeed Manning was being punished for her crimes, or being persecuted in violation of the constitution. I suggest sceptics in their bathroom or toilet replicate one of the conditions of her incarceration to see how long they last-

“For 17 hours a day, I sat directly in front of at least two Marine Corps guards seated behind a one-way mirror. I was not allowed to lay down. I was not allowed to lean my back against the cell wall. I was not allowed to exercise. Sometimes, to keep from going crazy, I would stand up, walk around, or dance, as ‘dancing’ was not considered exercise by the Marine Corps"
http://dailycampus.com/stories/2016/september/27/the-cruel-and-unusual-punishment-of-chelsea-manning

The cardinal point, as Hippifried points out above, is that Manning has not been pardoned, but her sentence has been commuted. My own view is that this has been a humane act by President Obama, and that it underlines the extent -however limited some may consider it to have been- to which the Obama Presidency has been good for the LGBTQIAPN/B communities -not just in the USA but across the world, at a time when these communities are under vicious attack. It is a salutary moment given that in the last month at least one M2F prisoner in a male prison in the UK has committed suicide, not an unusual case, and in the US individual States have been making aggressive attempts to revoke transgender rights in particular, a trend that some fear may get worse with the Trump administration.

So while I appreciate the second part of your post, I think the approach to crime and punishment is already provided for in the Constitution and any dismissive talk about 'this is real life in the military' or some other excuse just doesn't work, except to cast doubt on the whole purpose of the law and the Constitution itself.

[ElectricWoody]

Puzzles me how "HE" went thru Boot Camp and did all this. I think Bigotry clouded "HIS" morals.

[Post Op Preferred]

A comment so crass one wonders why you made the effort to post it.

crass, yes, and that was my intent. this is the porn forum, not a graduate seminar in ethics.
But trolling, no. Your comment and Laphroig's below comes closer to that.
However, Manning to her credit leaked materials which embarrassed the military but did not compromise military capabilities. According to Robert Gates' (the then Secretary of Defense) concerns about the Manning leaks were "significantly overwrought." http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/just-how-damaging-were-mannings-wikileaks/.
Manning violated her oath, but so did Claus von Stauffenberg (Hitler's would be assassin) and Daniel Ellsberg (Pentagon Papers.)
Manning believed she had a moral duty to expose military incompetence and abuses, both of which were on plentiful display in both Iraq, much like Ellsberg did for Vietnam. Both affected US policies positively by shifting public opinion against ill-fated and costly (in money and lost or ruined lives) interventions. She has paid a significant price and earned her freedom through a legitimate exercise of Obama's discretion.
so what's so wrong about Grooby offering her a shoot? It might juice the sales of her upcoming memoir.

[bryanferryfan2]

I've gotten to the point where I'm not a big fan of Chelsea Manning because she put a lot of lives at stake. Should've served a life sentence as far as I'm concerned !

[ILuvGurls]

I've gotten to the point where I'm not a big fan of Chelsea Manning because she put a lot of lives at stake. Should've served a life sentence as far as I'm concerned !

don't think 7 yrs is enough time for what she did.......JMHO

[runningdownthatdream]

I disagree with this for the simple reason that Manning has the constitutional right under the 8th Amendment not to receive 'cruel and unusual punishment', as is also true of all of her fellow Americans. To dismiss this because 'in reality' prison is what it is and is a form of hell, gives a free pass to anyone in the prison system and outside it who chooses to disregard both the law and constitution of the USA, and a prisoner's human rights.

Manning was placed in solitary confinement after attempting suicide, but this resulted in what appears to be an additional form of punishment, as I remarked upon in my original post, making one wonder if indeed Manning was being punished for her crimes, or being persecuted in violation of the constitution. I suggest sceptics in their bathroom or toilet replicate one of the conditions of her incarceration to see how long they last-

“For 17 hours a day, I sat directly in front of at least two Marine Corps guards seated behind a one-way mirror. I was not allowed to lay down. I was not allowed to lean my back against the cell wall. I was not allowed to exercise. Sometimes, to keep from going crazy, I would stand up, walk around, or dance, as ‘dancing’ was not considered exercise by the Marine Corps"
http://dailycampus.com/stories/2016/september/27/the-cruel-and-unusual-punishment-of-chelsea-manning

The cardinal point, as Hippifried points out above, is that Manning has not been pardoned, but her sentence has been commuted. My own view is that this has been a humane act by President Obama, and that it underlines the extent -however limited some may consider it to have been- to which the Obama Presidency has been good for the LGBTQIAPN/B communities -not just in the USA but across the world, at a time when these communities are under vicious attack. It is a salutary moment given that in the last month at least one M2F prisoner in a male prison in the UK has committed suicide, not an unusual case, and in the US individual States have been making aggressive attempts to revoke transgender rights in particular, a trend that some fear may get worse with the Trump administration.

So while I appreciate the second part of your post, I think the approach to crime and punishment is already provided for in the Constitution and any dismissive talk about 'this is real life in the military' or some other excuse just doesn't work, except to cast doubt on the whole purpose of the law and the Constitution itself.

I don't disagree with you Stavros. The best of human nature attempts to codify morality in laws and constitutions. They exist in all nations even those where the government itself is responsible for the most heinous atrocities. My point is that you cannot generalize and institutionalize morality. Ultimately individuals are responsible for how they behave and the truth of the matter is that humans will use the pretext of the law or constitution to justify what they WANT to do. Look at some of the comments here - it's obvious the law or constitution making torture illegal isn't equally clear to all. If you were her jailer YOU might have objected to what was being done to her but SanDiegoPervySage (being a good military man) might likely have felt she wasn't being treated harshly enough!

The individual maggots that partook in the torture you describe above had a moral imperative to do something about how Chelsea was being treated. They didn't. Why? Did they feel their actions were sanctioned by the government and if so did that make those actions , however morally repugnant they might have been, acceptable? Chelsea Manning had the same dilemma: she was a part of things that she felt repugnant and that drove her to expose them. How many of us would behave differently if we were in the same position as her jailers?

I'm not condoning what was done nor do I accept it as the 'reality' of prison. But I do accept the reality of human nature. That is that morality is on a sliding scale dependent on what role you're playing when, where, and why.

[fred41]

Chelsea Manning had the same dilemma: she was a part of things that she felt repugnant and that drove her to expose them.

You can't know this to be true at all.