Another Malaysian Airliner "crashed" ...

[GroobySteven]

Watching the reports coming in, may have been shot down over Ukrainian airspace.
As someone who flies so much, this always terrifies me, 295 people on-board. I

[Prospero]

It is confirmed crashed.... and yes, the notion of being shot at is obviously on the cards.

Talking to an airline pilot recently about the other mysterious crash a few months ago. He reckons that it was suicide - and explained how it would have worked. Pilot took a break to have a leak and co-pilot locked him out, then put it into a dive. Oxygen masks last only a few minutes so passengers would have been blacked out before the crash. That is the general theory in aviation circles I gather.

[simonisthebest]

sucide ? u crazy man.
that plane has landed somewhere in a island ,he aint on no Ocean,

[RallyCola]

watching brian williams coverage now and the "experts" are all saying they can't confirm anything but they are all suggesting that it is absolutely the case that it was shot down. 2 of these talking heads say it was russia and 1 says it was the ukranian dissidents. everyone is, at least so far, absolving the ukranian government.

this makes no sense...why target the malaysian flight in particular? i have to believe that if it was an intentional shoot down, they were aiming for any plane and it is just coincidence that it is a malaysian flight.

if this was not a shoot down, the media clearly wants it to be because it would be better for ratings. so far, they are only talking about surface to air missiles and really have not said dick about the passengers or the scene in malaysia where families are awaiting their loved ones.

this is just another reason why i can't stand the media sometimes...regardless if it is true that this plane was shot down...they are all just trying to "scoop" each other and get ratings that they will only report the most sensational story.

[Rusty Eldora]

I recall the 777 had not had a crash with fatalities until these two Malaysian flights. Our prayers are needed by those that lost loved ones on both of these.

It is so scary to think how many flights go over what could be hostile territory around the world. The world does not feel terribly safe right now.

[bluesoul]

Watching the reports coming in, may have been shot down over Ukrainian airspace.
As someone who flies so much, this always terrifies me, 295 people on-board. I

how about the other plane that supposedly disappeared?

[GroobySteven]

how about the other plane that supposedly disappeared?

Erm, what about it?

[giovanni_hotel]

Apparently there have been other shoot downs recently over Ukraine allegedly by the Russians or Ukrainian separatists.


Lots of rumors flying over here on cable news. The Ukrainian president says they have communications from Ukrainian separatists shortly after the shootdown bragging they'd shot down a Ukrainian transport plane.

I think it's highly unlikely regardless that Ukraine shot down this airliner.

[GroobySteven]

Apparently there have been other shoot downs recently over Ukraine allegedly by the Russians or Ukrainian separatists.


Lots of rumors flying over here on cable news. The Ukrainian president says they have communications from Ukrainian separatists shortly after the shootdown bragging they'd shot down a Ukrainian transport plane.

I think it's highly unlikely regardless that Ukraine shot down this airliner.


There have been lower flying military planes shot down. I saw the tweet - looks like the Russian's have fucked up and shot a civilian plane down - again!

[bluesoul]

Erm, what about it?

was it found? i was still caring about it and don't know whether i'm comfortable caring about this plane when my heart is with another plane

i need closure steven

[GroobySteven]

was it found? i was still caring about it and don't know whether i'm comfortable caring about this plane when my heart is with another plane

i need closure steven

It's in heaven, don't worry.

[bluesoul]

thanks. worrying terminated.

new plane worrying begins.... now

[Gillian]

Looks like European ATC know the areas to avoid now ... ;)

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BsxGBpjCYAEfTGm.jpg

(From FlightRadar24)

[Tapatio]

Erm, what about it?

When you say this out loud, is there an "r" sound?

I keep seeing "erm" but I've never heard it pronounced with the "r."

[bubbski]

I am almost ashamed to say that the first thing I wanted to tweet when I heard that it was a Malaysian Airlines plane was - I wonder if CNN had anything to do with this new airliner disaster. This has ratings winner written all over it!

This is where my cynicism about television news has taken me. Oh and look, Time Warner stock up again today right after the news broke!
733697
Rupert Murdoch isn't the only thing that can make TWX soar!

[GroobySteven]

When you say this out loud, is there an "r" sound?

I keep seeing "erm" but I've never heard it pronounced with the "r."

Yes there is an "r", it's just like "er" with an "m" on the end!

[Odelay]

As someone who flies so much, this always terrifies me, 295 people on-board. I

Whatever the opposite of fear is, is what I have in spades whenever I fly. From crashes to hostile fire it's got to be 100 times safer to fly than drive on the freeways of LA, or any other major city for that matter. I'd hop on a Malaysian airliner tomorrow if they were offering a great deal on somewhere that I wanted to go.

[GroobySteven]

Whatever the opposite of fear is, is what I have in spades whenever I fly. From crashes to hostile fire it's got to be 100 times safer to fly than drive on the freeways of LA, or any other major city for that matter. I'd hop on a Malaysian airliner tomorrow if they were offering a great deal on somewhere that I wanted to go.

So would I - and I know the statistics (I also drive in LA) but the flight thing ... it's that lack of (perceived) control.

[Pelheckitt]

The question is why was this aircraft flying over a war zone where other aircraft had previously been shot down?

No problem for Obama. He's munching on burgers, giving a speech about infrastructure, and going to a fundraiser tonight. 295 dead (including 23 Americans) don't rate a pause in his schedule. He did dedicate 40 seconds to this tragedy before going into his joke filled speech.

[thombergeron]

The question is why was this aircraft flying over a war zone where other aircraft had previously been shot down?

No problem for Obama. He's munching on burgers, giving a speech about infrastructure, and going to a fundraiser tonight. 295 dead (including 23 Americans) don't rate a pause in his schedule. He did dedicate 40 seconds to this tragedy before going into his joke filled speech.

He also called Putin on the telephone within about an hour of the plane going down. And he directed US intelligence agencies to lend support to the investigators. What more is he supposed to do right now? Nobody knows much of anything yet. We don't even know for certain that there were any U.S. citizens on the flight.

Look, whatever happened, it's obviously a tragedy. When we gain some idea over who is responsible, there should be heavy consequences. But really, this is a plane full of 300 people on the other side of the planet. At this particular moment, Obama's infrastructure policy is of greater consequence to 300 million American citizens.

Some people just cannot wait to blame Obama. Bad weather? Why won't Obama lead? My aunt's gout? Thanks, Obama!

[broncofan]

He also called Putin on the telephone within about an hour of the plane going down. And he directed US intelligence agencies to lend support to the investigators. What more is he supposed to do right now? Nobody knows much of anything yet. We don't even know for certain that there were any U.S. citizens on the flight.

One thing's certain. He shouldn't eat a hamburger at any point after a tragedy;.

[GroobySteven]

The question is why was this aircraft flying over a war zone where other aircraft had previously been shot down?

No problem for Obama. He's munching on burgers, giving a speech about infrastructure, and going to a fundraiser tonight. 295 dead (including 23 Americans) don't rate a pause in his schedule. He did dedicate 40 seconds to this tragedy before going into his joke filled speech.

Jeez, never miss an opportunity do you? What a stupid and inconsiderate post.

[tao1kiku]

Add another to the list downed by the Russians

On April 20, 1978, Soviet air defense shot down Korean Air Lines Flight 902 (KAL 902) near Murmansk, Soviet Union, after the civilian aircraft violated Soviet airspace and failed to respond to Soviet ground control and interceptors.

Korean Air Lines Flight 007 (also known as KAL007 and KE007) was a scheduled Korean Air Lines flight from New York City to Seoul via Anchorage. On September 1, 1983, the airliner serving the flight was shot down by a Soviet Su-15 interceptor near Moneron Island, west of Sakhalin Island, in the Sea of Japan

[GroobySteven]

Or the USA:
Iran Air Flight 655 was an Iran Air civilian passenger flight from Tehran to Dubai that was shot down by the United States Navy guided missile cruiser USS Vincennes on 3 July 1988. The attack took place in Iranian airspace, over Iran's territorial waters in the Persian Gulf, and on the flight's usual flight path. The aircraft, an Airbus A300 B2-203, was destroyed by SM-2MR surface-to-air missiles fired from the Vincennes.

All 290 on board, including 66 children and 16 crew, died.[1] This attack ranks tenth among the deadliest disasters in aviation history, the incident retains the highest death toll of any aviation incident in the Persian Gulf and the highest death toll of any incident involving an Airbus aircraft anywhere in the world.[2] The Vincennes had entered Iranian territorial waters after one of its helicopters drew warning fire from Iranian speedboats operating within Iranian territorial limits.

Iran Air Flight 655 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655)

[giovanni_hotel]

The question is why was this aircraft flying over a war zone where other aircraft had previously been shot down?

No problem for Obama. He's munching on burgers, giving a speech about infrastructure, and going to a fundraiser tonight. 295 dead (including 23 Americans) don't rate a pause in his schedule. He did dedicate 40 seconds to this tragedy before going into his joke filled speech.

LOL. Another Dittohead. Everything in life isn't 24/7 Red versus Blue.
When Obama gave his speech there were not enough details to insert it into a speech.

It's not like when two U.S. airliners hit the Twin Towers and Dubya went catatonic.

Foreign airliner shot down over Central Europe?
Six degrees of BHO.

Because a real POTUS would launch a nuclear missile strike against Russia, to show em how tough we are.:pumped:

[Tapatio]

...

Can you hear yourself when you talk?

[Turlington]

It really was a matter of time...

[VGA]

Add another to the list downed by the Russians

On April 20, 1978, Soviet air defense shot down Korean Air Lines Flight 902 (KAL 902) near Murmansk, Soviet Union, after the civilian aircraft violated Soviet airspace and failed to respond to Soviet ground control and interceptors.

Korean Air Lines Flight 007 (also known as KAL007 and KE007) was a scheduled Korean Air Lines flight from New York City to Seoul via Anchorage. On September 1, 1983, the airliner serving the flight was shot down by a Soviet Su-15 interceptor near Moneron Island, west of Sakhalin Island, in the Sea of Japan

Or... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberia_Airlines_Flight_1812

Siberia Airlines Flight 1812 crashed over the
Black Sea on 4 October 2001, en route from
Tel Aviv , Israel to Novosibirsk, Russia. The
plane, a Soviet -made Tupolev Tu-154 , carried
an estimated 66 passengers and 12 crew
members. Most of the passengers were Israelis
visiting relatives in Russia. No one on board
survived. The crash site is some 190 km west-
southwest of the Black Sea resort of Sochi and
140 km north of the Turkish coastal town of
Fatsa and 350 km east-southeast of
Feodosiya , Ukraine. Ukraine admitted that the
disaster was probably caused by an errant
missile fired by its armed forces.

[Prospero]

The question is why was this aircraft flying over a war zone where other aircraft had previously been shot down?

No problem for Obama. He's munching on burgers, giving a speech about infrastructure, and going to a fundraiser tonight. 295 dead (including 23 Americans) don't rate a pause in his schedule. He did dedicate 40 seconds to this tragedy before going into his joke filled speech.


Oh dear the Right who hate Obama let nothing cloud their hate-filled vision.

[Pelheckitt]

I have never stated anywhere that I "hate" Obama. I have never state that I favored any party.

I merely had a question that was straight forth and simple, why would someone choose a flight path that leads directly over an area that 3 other planes had been shot down in the past 2 weeks before this incident?

I understand that Obama didn't have all the facts or anything prepared to say about the civilian aircraft being shot down by either Ukrainians or most likely Russian insurgents and that was kind of the point of what I wrote. He could have ended his appearance at the fundraiser and following events politely excused himself and met with his cabinet to try and determine what if anything needed done and prepared a better statement.

[giovanni_hotel]

I have never stated anywhere that I "hate" Obama. I have never state that I favored any party.

I merely had a question that was straight forth and simple, why would someone choose a flight path that leads directly over an area that 3 other planes had been shot down in the past 2 weeks before this incident?

I understand that Obama didn't have all the facts or anything prepared to say about the civilian aircraft being shot down by either Ukrainians or most likely Russian insurgents and that was kind of the point of what I wrote. He could have ended his appearance at the fundraiser and following events politely excused himself and met with his cabinet to try and determine what if anything needed done and prepared a better statement.

Is BHO King of the fucking WORLD???

Almost everyone killed on that flight was a European, so why don't you bust the balls of all the EU leaders who didn't come out forcefully about the attack??

Why is every god damn problem in the world the responsibility of the USA to solve???

Are you right wingers really prepared to start another Cold/Hot war with Russia by overtly supplying the Ukrainians with military aid??

Ukraine is right on the border of Russia.
Imagine if China decided to supply Mexican rebels with arms??

BHO the day before had just levied the harshest economic sanctions ever against Russia but I don't hear any of you Right wingers talking about that.

It's bad form for the POTUS to freakout and start sabre-ratting every time more than 10 people die someplace in the world.

Obama's handling it.

[Pelheckitt]

Is BHO King of the fucking WORLD???

Almost everyone killed on that flight was a European, so why don't you bust the balls of all the EU leaders who didn't come out forcefully about the attack??

Why is every god damn problem in the world the responsibility of the USA to solve???

Are you right wingers really prepared to start another Cold/Hot war with Russia by overtly supplying the Ukrainians with military aid??

Ukraine is right on the border of Russia.
Imagine if China decided to supply Mexican rebels with arms??

BHO the day before had just levied the harshest economic sanctions ever against Russia but I don't hear any of you Right wingers talking about that.

It's bad form for the POTUS to freakout and start sabre-ratting every time more than 10 people die someplace in the world.

Obama's handling it.

Actually the Dutch Prime Minister Mark Rutte said "he’ll leave no stone unturned to catch the culprits." See how that works?

Who was talking about the United States solving all the worlds problems? There were American civilians aboard that flight it was about our nations leader addressing their deaths.

Again im not right wing but anyways... the United States supplies all of it allies with military aide and the cold war wasn't caused by supplying military support to other countries it was a result of the cold war and the U.S.S.R did the same.

China does supply and is close to Venezuela, Cuba and Iran. But as far as I know not Mexico. I would guess that the United States would do nothing since the country is controlled by Mexican cartels carrying Soviet Era weapons.

Again with the right wing thing I don't get where you got that from? What should I say about the harsher sanctions leveed against Russia and it wasn't just the United States it was several European Countries also.

Asking for answers on behalf of the Nation or the very least for the families would be saber rattling?

Obama is handling it? Ok

[giovanni_hotel]

See, the problem is you're parroting right-wing talking points.

It's a lie to say that the EU signed off on the harsher sanctions issued by the U.S. two days ago.
Name the countries that were signatories on those U.S. sanctions targeting Russian banks and freezing the foreign assets of top Russian corporations?? You can't because there were none.

The main complaint out of the WH is the EU is being pussy about punishing Russia for escalating the Ukrainian conflict because they need Russian natural gas.

China is NOT a primary or secondary arms supplier for any country in Central America.

If the Mexican cartels decided one day to overtly take over the Mexican government and put themselves in control, if Russia was their main military benefactor it would put the U.S. and Russia on the brink of a broader military conflict.

The Cold War was defined by multiple proxi-wars between the U.S. and Russia(see Afghanistan in the 1980s) where both parties made military and political alliances with developing nations in Latin America, Africa and Asia who were in opposition to either superpower's influence.

Nearly two-thirds of those killed in the Malaysian shoot down were Dutch, and the flight itself took off from the Netherlands. Of course the Netherlands would view this tragedy as a much more personal attack than the United States.

If a 250 passenger flight from California heading to Australia was shot down over China, but there were 15 Brits on board, would you expect the official response from the UK and the U.S. to be the same??smdh

And which one is it, are the Mexi cartels supplied more with the latest AMERICAN MADE firearms, or lol 'Soviet era' automatic weapons?? Don't make up shit to prove a nonsensical point.
Fast-And-Furious was an ATF operation to track the flow of U.S. weapons across the Mexican border into the hands into the hands of Mexican cartels because Mexican law enforcement was encountering huge caches of American weapons whenever they had firefights and arrested cartel members.

Senator McCain or any other U.S. politician suggesting we should supply arms to the Ukrainian government is thinking strictly short-term. There are non-identified RUSSIAN SOLDIERS fighting in Ukraine and Russia has nearly 15,000 troops going through exercises on the border.

What happens if it's a U.S. military transport airplane bringing supplies to Ukraine with a dozen military advisers on board that's shot down instead of the Malaysia flight???

I'm at the point if the EU is fine with Russia annexing Ukraine, let them have it.

[Prospero]

I am kinda reminded of dear old George Bush and the moment he heard the news about 9/11 ... sitting listening to a kiddies story in a school.

[GroobySteven]

I am kinda reminded of dear old George Bush and the moment he heard the news about 9/11 ... sitting listening to a kiddies story in a school.


But you know, even as much as I disliked Bush, I think that was over-blown out of proportion. He was given the news and what was he meant to do, jump up and run out screaming for someone's head?

[Prospero]

I agree Steven. At that point he had only the first inklings of the scale of what had happened.

My personal take on that is that I recall first getting word of the 9/11 attack of it via a tiny little news flash on yahoo saying a civilian plane had had accident at world trade centre. I only looked further immediately because I'd been in Windows On The World a week before filming part of a documentary. (Many of the people I'd met a few days before at the WTC died that morning)

[Pelheckitt]

See, the problem is you're parroting right-wing talking points.

It's a lie to say that the EU signed off on the harsher sanctions issued by the U.S. two days ago.
Name the countries that were signatories on those U.S. sanctions targeting Russian banks and freezing the foreign assets of top Russian corporations?? You can't because there were none.

The main complaint out of the WH is the EU is being pussy about punishing Russia for escalating the Ukrainian conflict because they need Russian natural gas.

China is NOT a primary or secondary arms supplier for any country in Central America.

If the Mexican cartels decided one day to overtly take over the Mexican government and put themselves in control, if Russia was their main military benefactor it would put the U.S. and Russia on the brink of a broader military conflict.

The Cold War was defined by multiple proxi-wars between the U.S. and Russia(see Afghanistan in the 1980s) where both parties made military and political alliances with developing nations in Latin America, Africa and Asia who were in opposition to either superpower's influence.

Nearly two-thirds of those killed in the Malaysian shoot down were Dutch, and the flight itself took off from the Netherlands. Of course the Netherlands would view this tragedy as a much more personal attack than the United States.

If a 250 passenger flight from California heading to Australia was shot down over China, but there were 15 Brits on board, would you expect the official response from the UK and the U.S. to be the same??smdh

And which one is it, are the Mexi cartels supplied more with the latest AMERICAN MADE firearms, or lol 'Soviet era' automatic weapons?? Don't make up shit to prove a nonsensical point.
Fast-And-Furious was an ATF operation to track the flow of U.S. weapons across the Mexican border into the hands into the hands of Mexican cartels because Mexican law enforcement was encountering huge caches of American weapons whenever they had firefights and arrested cartel members.

Senator McCain or any other U.S. politician suggesting we should supply arms to the Ukrainian government is thinking strictly short-term. There are non-identified RUSSIAN SOLDIERS fighting in Ukraine and Russia has nearly 15,000 troops going through exercises on the border.

What happens if it's a U.S. military transport airplane bringing supplies to Ukraine with a dozen military advisers on board that's shot down instead of the Malaysia flight???

I'm at the point if the EU is fine with Russia annexing Ukraine, let them have it.

Ok LOL.

During phone conversations over the past several days, Obama and the leaders of the U.K., France and Germany reaffirmed the conditions that Russia must meet to avert a stiffer round of sanctions, including halting the flow of Russian weapons and fighters into Ukraine

I didn't know the WH was complaining the EU was being pussies? But its perfectly believable to me considering the Syrian conflict had almost zero to do with people and pipelines.

China a supplier of weapon's to central and south America I don't believe that is what I said the number one supplier is the United States over the last 30 or more years refer to Iran-Contra. What I said most of the weapons being used were Soviet area weapons.

I disagree with the Mexican cartel Russian supply network scenario. In a country already saturated with weapons it would make little to no sense to attack Russia as a supplier before you stabilized the boarder. I also wont be drawn in a boarder discussion in a non related thread.

I agree 100% with you on the proxy wars that were a result and not a cause of the Cold War.

Correct most of the people that were aboard this flight were Dutch. Can you tell me what the number of murdered civilians is that a nation is allowed to become outraged and demand answers?

This is what you said " If a 250 passenger flight from California heading to Australia was shot down over China, but there were 15 Brits on board, would you expect the official response from the UK and the U.S. to be the same??smdh"
My answer is yes, simply put if they cared about their people and im sure they do im sure they would demand answers.

Again your correct about the cartels receiving weapons from America through fast and furious and it wasn't Bullshit I merely said that many of the weapons the cartels use are Soviet era weapons. Only a small percentage of them were acquired through fast and furious but true one is one to many. A lot of the weapons were acquired through the fall of the U.S.S.R and weapons grab of the early 90's mainly South American countries. Mexico has enjoyed the use of United States military hardware as a whole...but we are talking cartels.

Again your way off base, I never claimed that the United States should supply any weapons to the Ukraine but the United States has determined that the Ukraine is an allie and will support them in there on going fight to maintain a free nation.

If a US transport aircraft had been shot down what would happen.....sadly I believe they would have received the same 40 second mention as the people on the Malaysian flight received.

You feel its fine for the Russia to annex the Ukraine ok that is your opinion and you are entitled to it. I personal do not care I don't have a dog in the fight and to be honest it seems like a EU issue. Until innocent civilians are slaughtered at 35,000 by military weapons then answers are required if not action.

It's tedious how you keep moving the pieces around the board and expanding on everything rather than simply stating what your trying to state. This all started with one question and an observation of President of the United States and has grown into this bloated and honestly boring for anyone else response.

Call me right wing again despite me never claiming any political affiliation and dissect any reply I have made if you like.

I succeed you win the argument, its beyond me to continue this mental masturbation with you.

[giovanni_hotel]

There was ONE American on that Malaysian flight.

Why the United States should feel the most aggrieved from the shoot down, or have the most vocal outrage is beyond me.

Instead of worrying whether or not Obama had the appropriate media presentation addressing the tragic loss of human life, the EU should try to decide what their main agenda is as an alliance of nations.

If foreign incursions into potential future EU partners is acceptable to the EU, it makes no sense for the United States to care more or respond more forcefully than the EU to the insurgent conflict in Unkraine.

Complaining that it was inappropriate for BHO to continue a fundraising tour or being upset that he didn't threaten Russia more is useless.


The WH ALONE issued the harshest sanctions yet against Russia for their interference in Ukraine.

You would think a unified Europe wouldn't need Uncle Sam to stand up to Russia for them.

[Stavros]

I can't think of anything more fatuous right now than people bickering over President Obama's reaction to this crisis.

The priority now is for the Dutch Air Accident team to be given unlimited access to the crash site in order to a) recover and identify the victims, and return them to their families; and b) recover as much as they can of the wreckage of the plane so that it can be re-assembled in a hangar somewhere in the Netherlands for forensic inspection (as happened with PanAm 103 that was brought down over Lockerbie in 1988). This inspection ought to be able to determine if MH17 was brought down by a bomb on board, by a surface-to-air missile, or by a missile fired from a military jet.

The government of the Ukraine has the legal right to impose its authority on the territory under its jurisdiction, but it is clear that the military action used to assert this right has led to the displacement of 25,000 people from eastern Ukraine now living as refugees in Russia. The manifest lack of trust between the east of Ukraine and the rest of the country cannot justify the creation of the 'Donetsk People's Republic' or the support given to it by Russia, so there is clearly a need for a new approach to resolve the political settlement of the Ukraine without further recourse to violence.

In this context, the EU or the UN should sponsor a conference which could propose:
-the immediate cessation of all military action in the Ukraine;
-the status quo ante in which all of the territory of the Ukraine (minus the Crimea) is controlled by the government in Kiev;
-the dissolution of the current government in favour of a government of national unity which would include representatives from all parts of the country and work towards the creation of a new constitution followed by elections;
-a new demarcation of the international boundary of the Ukraine in which the eastern provinces become part of Russia, subject to a referendum;
-that the Ukraine agree to become a neutral state and therefore not pursue membership of the EU or NATO (which is not popular in the Ukraine anyway).

These options would enable Ukraine to reassert its political sovereignty, enable Russia to revert to being a 'good neighbour', and offer Europe a neutral state in the borderlands with Russia; but would also require the disbandment of the 'armed forces' of the 'Donetsk People's Republic', and end Vladimir Putin's dream of re-creating the USSR in all but name.

Even during the Cold War when economic ties between the USSR and Europe were negligible, no military action was considered when the Red Army invaded Hungary in 1956, Czechoslovakia in 1968, or when martial law was declared in Poland in 1981, although President Reagan did respond by sponsoring a tv programme, Let Poland be Poland. The solutions, though difficult, are diplomatic. It all depends on how seriously the parties want to stop fighting and start talking, and how willing they are to make bold decisions about the future of relations between the Ukraine and Russia.

[scroller]

But you know, even as much as I disliked Bush, I think that was over-blown out of proportion. He was given the news and what was he meant to do, jump up and run out screaming for someone's head?

"Sorry, children, something important has come up and I have to go."

[GroobySteven]

"Sorry, children, something important has come up and I have to go."

.... and what possible difference would those 5 mins have made. It still didn't stop him using it as an excuse to jump into Iraq without any relation.

[Ben]

Facts Needed on Malaysian Plane Shoot-Down:

http://consortiumnews.com/2014/07/18/facts-needed-on-malaysian-plane-shoot-down/

[Ben in LA]

Facts Needed on Malaysian Plane Shoot-Down:

http://consortiumnews.com/2014/07/18/facts-needed-on-malaysian-plane-shoot-down/

Facts have a liberal bias.®

[sukumvit boy]

I can't think of anything more fatuous right now than people bickering over President Obama's reaction to this crisis.

The priority now is for the Dutch Air Accident team to be given unlimited access to the crash site in order to a) recover and identify the victims, and return them to their families; and b) recover as much as they can of the wreckage of the plane so that it can be re-assembled in a hangar somewhere in the Netherlands for forensic inspection (as happened with PanAm 103 that was brought down over Lockerbie in 1988). This inspection ought to be able to determine if MH17 was brought down by a bomb on board, by a surface-to-air missile, or by a missile fired from a military jet.

The government of the Ukraine has the legal right to impose its authority on the territory under its jurisdiction, but it is clear that the military action used to assert this right has led to the displacement of 25,000 people from eastern Ukraine now living as refugees in Russia. The manifest lack of trust between the east of Ukraine and the rest of the country cannot justify the creation of the 'Donetsk People's Republic' or the support given to it by Russia, so there is clearly a need for a new approach to resolve the political settlement of the Ukraine without further recourse to violence.

In this context, the EU or the UN should sponsor a conference which could propose:
-the immediate cessation of all military action in the Ukraine;
-the status quo ante in which all of the territory of the Ukraine (minus the Crimea) is controlled by the government in Kiev;
-the dissolution of the current government in favour of a government of national unity which would include representatives from all parts of the country and work towards the creation of a new constitution followed by elections;
-a new demarcation of the international boundary of the Ukraine in which the eastern provinces become part of Russia, subject to a referendum;
-that the Ukraine agree to become a neutral state and therefore not pursue membership of the EU or NATO (which is not popular in the Ukraine anyway).

These options would enable Ukraine to reassert its political sovereignty, enable Russia to revert to being a 'good neighbour', and offer Europe a neutral state in the borderlands with Russia; but would also require the disbandment of the 'armed forces' of the 'Donetsk People's Republic', and end Vladimir Putin's dream of re-creating the USSR in all but name.

Even during the Cold War when economic ties between the USSR and Europe were negligible, no military action was considered when the Red Army invaded Hungary in 1956, Czechoslovakia in 1968, or when martial law was declared in Poland in 1981, although President Reagan did respond by sponsoring a tv programme, Let Poland be Poland. The solutions, though difficult, are diplomatic. It all depends on how seriously the parties want to stop fighting and start talking, and how willing they are to make bold decisions about the future of relations between the Ukraine and Russia.

:iagree::pumped: Great overview of the situation , Stavros. Also , interesting historical perspective.
Yes , Putin's Russia is looking a lot like the old USSR. Also , Putin's vicious return to power looks a lot like the old Soviet power plays. Makes one wonder about the whole Russian political mind set . Seems like they can't break the old habits , or maybe it's just built into the Russian political machinery.
Btw , so good to see you back . We certainly respect your desire to' keep a low profile' but I know I'm not alone in missing your informed and articulate input around here.

[dice68]

what goes around comes around, so beware ......

[catherinefan]

:iagree::pumped: Great overview of the situation , Stavros. Also , interesting historical perspective.
Yes , Putin's Russia is looking a lot like the old USSR. Also , Putin's vicious return to power looks a lot like the old Soviet power plays. Makes one wonder about the whole Russian political mind set . Seems like they can't break the old habits , or maybe it's just built into the Russian political machinery.
Btw , so good to see you back . We certainly respect your desire to' keep a low profile' but I know I'm not alone in missing your informed and articulate input around here.


Why do Americans always have this tendency to exaggerate when it comes to politics? Putin's Russia isn't looking anything like the old USSR and I'm sure it isn't heading in that direction. Sure, Putin may not be the most ideal leader, but then again, who is? I do for instance remember a US president not all that long ago, who invaded a country on fabricated evidence, killing more than 100.000 innocent people in the process.
Perhaps it's time we look a little closer at the role of the so-called West in this conflict.
Had NATO not been so eager to make member states out of all those countries that were formerly under USSR influence, there would not be a conflict in the Ukraine today. Putin is merely responding to that expansian drift. When it became more and more likely that even the Ukraine would eventually fall victim, Putin stepped in. Not all that surprising, seeing that a large part of that country is populated by Russian people.
If we seriously seek to improve the world, we have to start with ourselves.

[Turlington]

I do for instance remember a US president not all that long ago, who invaded a country on fabricated evidence, killing more than 100.000 innocent people in the process.

So do I, yet the republicans who are critizing the current president's foreign policy seem to forget about that.

If we seriously seek to improve the world, we have to start with ourselves.
Exactly.

[Stavros]

:iagree::pumped: Great overview of the situation , Stavros. Also , interesting historical perspective.
Yes , Putin's Russia is looking a lot like the old USSR. Also , Putin's vicious return to power looks a lot like the old Soviet power plays. Makes one wonder about the whole Russian political mind set . Seems like they can't break the old habits , or maybe it's just built into the Russian political machinery.
Btw , so good to see you back . We certainly respect your desire to' keep a low profile' but I know I'm not alone in missing your informed and articulate input around here.

There is a simple explanation for my absence in the last month -I was ill and therefore not able to access the internet, and then I was out of the country, in fact I was flying home over the English Channel at around the time that the Malaysian Airliner was taking off from Amsterdam on its fatal flight.

[trish]

Just a brief off-topic post to say: Hello Stavros. Hope you have or expect to fully recover. As sukumvit boy said, we missed you.

[nysprod]

Had NATO not been so eager to make member states out of all those countries that were formerly under USSR influence, there would not be a conflict in the Ukraine today. Putin is merely responding to that expansian drift. When it became more and more likely that even the Ukraine would eventually fall victim, Putin stepped in. Not all that surprising, seeing that a large part of that country is populated by Russian people.
If we seriously seek to improve the world, we have to start with ourselves.

The point you're missing is that sovereign nations have, or should have, the right to join groups or organizations of their own choosing. Aside from that, NATO stands for the defense of rights for all people.

[Stavros]

Just a brief off-topic post to say: Hello Stavros. Hope you have or expect to fully recover. As sukumvit boy said, we missed you.
Thank you for your kind words.

[Stavros]

:iagree::pumped: Great overview of the situation , Stavros. Also , interesting historical perspective.
Yes , Putin's Russia is looking a lot like the old USSR. Also , Putin's vicious return to power looks a lot like the old Soviet power plays. Makes one wonder about the whole Russian political mind set . Seems like they can't break the old habits , or maybe it's just built into the Russian political machinery..

I think I probably overplayed the USSR aspect of Putin's policy. When the Russians created the Eurasian Economic Union earlier this year only Kazakhstan and Belarus turned up, with Ukraine's seat empty. And while Reuters pointed out that "the new union has a market of 170 million people, a combined annual GDP of $2.7 trillion and vast energy riches, and it can be held up by Putin to show Western sanctions imposed over the annexation of Crimea will not isolate Russia", one notes that all three of the Union's members are notoriously corrupt. (http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/05/29/us-ukraine-crisis-eurasia-idUSKBN0E90O520140529).
Russia has also been a prime mover with the other BRICS in the creation of the New Development Bank, so these developments appear to be attempts by Russia to compete with the European Union but also underline the feeling that Russia sees itself forging a different path from the rest of Europe, even if Russia is both a European and an Asian power. So I think Russia is thinking in terms of new alliances rather than the resurrection of the USSR, but can't let go of Ukraine in the same way, or is primarily concerned to prevent Ukraine deepening its relationship with the EU and NATO.

I fear the EU and NATO are manipulating Ukraine to get at Russia, and that sanctions are a blunt instrument that will not work. It suggests a lack of imagination on the part of the EU and the USA fro whom no really bold ideas have been proposed, such as a withdrawal of invitations to Ukraine to deepen its relations with the EU and NATO -it is not as if we need a country as corrupt as the Ukraine to be our economic partners, and I don't see it as a strategic asset either.

The most important thing now is that the bodies of the victims are on their way out of the country to the Netherlands, that the flight recorders have been handed over to the Malaysians, and that we hope the debris will be gathered so that accident inspectors can do their work and the villagers affected so badly by this crash attempt to return to their lives. While the militia of the 'Donetsk People's Republic' have been swaggering around and looking important (and lethal), many villagers (some of them local coal miners) have been responsible for collecting the bodies of the victims and their belongings, and have also had to cope with the horror of passengers crashing through their roof ending up in the kitchen or the bedroom, often naked and injured, as a gruesome photo suggested in a Channel 4 documentary last night.
[/URL][URL="http://www.reuters.com/places/russia?lc=int_mb_1001"] (http://www.reuters.com/places/russia?lc=int_mb_1001)

[Veal Cutlet]

Did they ever find the first one yet?

[sukumvit boy]

Why do Americans always have this tendency to exaggerate when it comes to politics? Putin's Russia isn't looking anything like the old USSR and I'm sure it isn't heading in that direction. Sure, Putin may not be the most ideal leader, but then again, who is? I do for instance remember a US president not all that long ago, who invaded a country on fabricated evidence, killing more than 100.000 innocent people in the process.
Perhaps it's time we look a little closer at the role of the so-called West in this conflict.
Had NATO not been so eager to make member states out of all those countries that were formerly under USSR influence, there would not be a conflict in the Ukraine today. Putin is merely responding to that expansian drift. When it became more and more likely that even the Ukraine would eventually fall victim, Putin stepped in. Not all that surprising, seeing that a large part of that country is populated by Russian people.
If we seriously seek to improve the world, we have to start with ourselves.
:cheers::offtopicI certainly respect your opinion . catherinefan , especially in regard to the US's need to get it's own house in order.
What I was trying to express was my general impression that 'president for life' Putin is responsible for suffocating the infant Russian democracy in it's cradle in the 12 years since he came to power.
I'm thinking of the long list of journalists murdered , most prominent among them Anna Politkovskaya and the horrible murder of Alexander Litvinenko with radioactive Polonium-210.
The evidence suggests that those were all contract killings ,if not directly carried out by the KGB as in the case of Litvinenko.
I lived through the Soviet era ,and although I'm not a political person in the sense of possessing any great scholarship in politics , it just leaves me with that impression.
http://www.theguardian.com/media/greenslade/2012/mar/11/journalist-safety-vladimir-putin

Assassination of Anna Politkovskaya - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Anna_Politkovskaya)
Alexander Litvinenko - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Litvinenko)

[catherinefan]

The point you're missing is that sovereign nations have, or should have, the right to join groups or organizations of their own choosing. Aside from that, NATO stands for the defense of rights for all people.

Theoretically you are right about that, but aren't you forgetting to add something rather important? Those groups and organizations have equal right to reject the membership application of that sovereign nation. Which is of course what should be done if it's in the interest of every other nation.

Who again did you say was missing the point?