Fuck the Police State

[Ben in LA]

Just go watch the video to see who escalated what.

And the cop,is supposed to be a prefessional. There is no law stating one can't curse at a cop, especially after being pulled over because one didn't signal to get out of the way of a police car that's tailgating you.

[trish]

Oh yes, I’m always a good girl when the police pull me over. Hands on the wheel. Look of concern yet cheerful and polite disposition. “Yes officer.” “No officer.” “Certainly officer.”

But you know what? I’m not ever certain of my fate when I’m being pulled over for some bullshit violation. No person of color is.

A black woman being tailgated by a police car, thinks the policeman is in a hurry and so she vacates the lane to let him pass. He then pulls her over for not signaling the lane change. Yeah, wassup with dat? Well within her rights she refuses to put out her cigarette, this peeves the officer and he now demands she exit her vehicle! She’s under arrest! I’m not at all certain this policemen wasn’t just looking to bust someone. Why was he tailgating her? This kind of shit happens every hour of every day of the week, and as we’ve recently seen, it often doesn’t end well.

Meanwhile white guys with assault weapons in full display and who refuse to show a license, give an ID, or even the time of day are allowed to go their way.

[buttslinger]

If I'm a cop and I want to make my quota, of course I'm going to pull over the black person. Even if the car isn't stolen, there's bound to be several violations, probably even a bag of weed under the seat.

The AMERICAN question is.... should a DEALMAKER like THE DONALD be congratulated even though the people he outsmarts are most likely fellow Americans? Do we dumb down the game so everybody can win? Should a bum working next to a go-getter get the same hourly wage? If a criminal gets free room and board in a humane society, should a minimum wage head of the household pay some slum lord all his income?

It's human nature to try and get over on your fellow human. Winners and Losers. College Educations cost money. EVERY FUCKIN THING costs money.

The only thing everyone in a society agrees to is that when it comes right down to it, after I make my billion I'll set up a philanthropist tax free organization in my name to feed the losers.

Setting up the rules for a SOCIETY that is not only fair but can thrive usually means a strong military and police force. The Dragon eats it's own tail and round and round we go.

[yodajazz]

"bow and scrape before a policeman" ?? That's certainly not what was being asked of her.
Sandra Bland would be nothing more than a traffic statistic had she simply complied with instructions in a respectful manner....as we are all obligated to do while operating a motor vehicle during a routine encounter with a police officer.
It's not a perfect world Stavros, cops have bad days. no doubt this a tragic death of an innocent person, but at the end of the day Ms Bland taking a tiny different course of action would have resulted in her driving away with a warning or summons.... annoyed but alive.

If only those colonialists would, have complied and paid their tea tax, we could have still been part of of Great Britain, and Sandra Bland would still be alive today! But seriously her death in jail seems to be highly questionable. The fact that she posted videos prior to her death about race relations, makes it more likely that she carried her attitude to jail, and pissed some people there off. It's always been this way, from my view. Like I have stated previously, my cousin supposedly committed suicide in jail, in the 80's after being arrested on a DUI. He was in his 20's and had two young children. Things are just making the news, these days.

http://www.forharriet.com/2015/07/in-her-own-words-haunting-importance-of.html#axzz3hGNxjVUV

[Ben in LA]

Can someone explain this?

[yodajazz]

Can someone explain this? Wow! It appears to me, that they had something to hide. Why would the cameras be of any concern, if you had nothing to hide? Then factor in that a person was later found dead. It is reasonable, they would they try to hide, that some in their custody who died under questionable circumstances, if they had some responsibility in her death. Now what I am saying, is that this was a past police privilege. That is in the past police were able to do this, and get away with it. It puts other policemen a special club. Either your in or you're out. Then it goes beyond race, as Black policeman have to either support the force, or face the consequences.

[yodajazz]

I should have informed you that I have reposted this picture on my facebook. Thanks much!

[Ben in LA]

Someone explain this as well. What is the cop throwing away?

http://amazinamerica.tumblr.com/post/125423373345/video-of-the-black-cop-throwing-away-the-trash-bag

Also, to all of the people saying that Sandra Bland should've been more polite to the police officer:

If people in customer service jobs (restaurants come to mind) can deal with customers yelling, screaming, asking for impossible things, and getting mad that we aren't allowed to do it - all while keeping a smile on our face - I'm pretty sure a cop can stay levelheaded about someone not wanting to put out their cigarette IN THEIR OWN FUCKING CAR.

[Ben in LA]

This is a still from the released footage. I'll wait.

[martin48]

Another one

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/30/us/university-of-cincinnati-officer-indicted-in-shooting-death-of-motorist.html?smid=fb-share&_r=0

[martin48]

The Videos That Are Putting Race
and Policing Into Sharp Relief
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/07/30/us/police-videos-race.html


See the whole collection

[joebadass]

I hate cops..always taking my weed

[buttslinger]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HQiqvwQ5Xk

[fred41]

It seems like there are two separate issues with the Sandra Bland case..1.Was her arrest justified?...and 2.Was she murdered?

so...

1. While the trooper had the absolute right to pull her over if she committed an infraction ...I think his actions escalated way too quickly. You need a thicker skin on a job like that. Unless she was extremely confrontational (which she very well might have been) I don't see it going that far in most realistic scenarios . You really want to avoid putting your hands on someone unless it's absolutely necessary. Plus it's an infraction!!! ( Also...personally ...I found her quite attractive, so if it was me, I probably would have went out of my way for it not to go the way it did...just male human nature...but it does seem from clips of the video that she might have been taller than the trooper...so maybe he felt challenged)

2.I watched the facility's camera recording, (I think YouTube has 12 min. so far) without the gratuitous captions placed underneath ... I see nothing that screams large scale murder conspiracy...because I think it's extremely unlikely that people in the Sheriff's office and correctional facility and medical examiner's office would all conspire to murder a woman and agree to cover it up... all to possibly protect a trooper with barely a year on the job.
Hell...I could be wrong...anything is possible, but...
Stop fucking getting your news from twitter and facebook!!!!!
Jesus fucking christ....what?!! are we all 16-18 year old girls now?!!!

[fred41]

The missing word in my post before the exclamation points was "Infraction" in italics...don't know why it came out blank.
So in summary: I think the trooper in this case deserves to be fired from this job ( part and parcel because of what happened )...but....I don't believe there was a 'cover-up' murder.

[Stavros]

There is an interesting article below in which it explains that "thanks to Pennsylvania v. Mimms (https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/434/106/case.html), a 1977 decision...the U.S. Supreme Court said a police officer may order a legally detained motorist out of his car at will."

Apparently the officer, Encinio had made a traffic stop before his encounter with Bland but did not order that motorist out of the car, so it seems that Encinio was riled by Ms Bland's refusal to put out her cigarette -it is legal to smoke in a car in Texas, but it is not legal to refuse a police officer's request which it seems is why Ms Bland was arrested and ordered out of the car. But she then became involved in a scuffle with the officer and ended up being charged with 'assaulting a public servant' which also suggests that the first charge the officer claimed to have arrested her on was not on the charge sheet. She had bail set at $5,000 and was put in a cell on her own because she was deemed to be a 'high risk' to others. Her family were unable to raise the $500 or 10% of the bail in time to get her out of the Country Jail.

What has not been established is whether or not the officer deliberately sat on her tail so that she may have looked into her rear view mirror and concluded he needed to pass quickly so that she immediately changed lanes to let him pass without making a signal -or if she 'broke the law' by doing so in an act of forgetfulness or for whatever other reason. We must be aware that an officer pulling over a car might get shot by an angry motorist., but, crucially, it is the fact that a trivial incident became a tragic one because it led to a woman being jailed in solitary confinement during which she was heard weeping and without being attended to. She had been moving to Texas to take up a temporary post at the Prairie View A &M University, but I am assuming that with a charge of 'assaulting a public official' which probably comes with a prison sentence (?), she sat there in the cell and concluded her job was gone and with all the other things that happened in her life there was no reason to carry on. Had she been with someone else it is conceivable they would have been able to talk her down and get her through it, and who knows, she may have got off with a fine rather than a prison sentence, that we shall never know. It would appear that the staff of the Waller Count Jail had a duty of care and that in this they failed.

And that if anyone is ever pulled over by an officer, they must shut up and do as they are told, as Sullum concludes in his article:
" (Encinio) was annoyed by what he perceived as Bland's failure to respect his authority. He later told her that he had been ready to let her go with a warning and that she had only herself to blame for the way the encounter ended."

http://reason.com/blog/2015/07/22/why-was-sandra-bland-arrested

[buttslinger]

This story is written between the lines. Texas is a LAW AND ORDER state. When I used to hitch-hike down to Florida EVERYBODY knew you don't hitch through Texas or you'll get locked up.
It's no great surprise that this cop inserted himself into a problem that wasn't a problem til he got there.
Of course that's only my opinion.
I'm thinking Sandra Bland was wasn't driving real good because she was stoned off her ass and this cop wanted to investigate. So he cooked up this chickenshit excuse to pull her over. This kind of stuff happens all the time.
Lots of towns in WHITE AMERICA don't want drifters hitching through their town or black kids driving the streets at 3AM and they don't mind their cops exercising their powers to keep the streets clean and WHITE.

Summer TV is unwatchable, I missed the details of this case, anyway, the dentist who killed Cecil the Lion is the new asshole of the hour.

But it is eternally written in stone that even when a cop is an asshole you comply. Show him your license and registration and move on. Sandra Bland is the tip of the iceberg, there are hundreds of thousands of black faces in jail.

[Cuchulain]

It seems there are a few folks from the 'comply, submit, BOW YOUR HEAD' crowd here. Fuck that shit. That cop had no legal authority to order Ms. Bland to put out her cigarette. He did have the power to order her out of the car but he had no valid reason to do so other than ego. He had no reason to threaten her with a taser OR to rough her up after she left the vehicle. The big, tough policeman certainly could not have been afraid of her. Of course "I feared for my safety" is the excuse that bully cops always use to justify their use of excessive force.

Yeah people, it's easier (and probably safer) to just go along and do whatever officer Friendly tells you to. Just swallow your pride, toss your civil rights on the trash pile and be a good little sheep. Again, I say fuck that shit. Know your rights and stand up for yourselves. You don't have to be aggressive but you don't need to be submissive either. Don't reinforce bad behavior.

Always film any encounter with the police if you can. Video is your best protection against abuse. The fact that so many citizens ARE filming has brought police misconduct into the national limelight. Changing the cop mindset of "I can do whatever the fuck I want" won't happen overnight. But cops (too few) are actually being disciplined, fired, even brought up on charges now. We'll all be better off when the lads with badges and the guns learn that they have to behave legally and ethically.

[buttslinger]

no no no, compliance with a uniformed officer of the law has nothing to do with bending over. If you go to prison you'll be bending over and spreading your cheeks to some guard for the asking. And if you don't comply in jail you WILL get a beat down.

I've seen the Judge dress down cops all the time in court. If you think the cops are assholes, wait til you get locked up in jail for pushing a cop. Jail is full of assholes lots worse than cops.

If you wanna be all radical and shit get the cop's name and badge number and find out where he lives if it makes you feel strong and free. Don't tell anybody, though.

[Cuchulain]

No. If you allow a someone in authority to bully you and tread on your rights, that IS bending over. Rights and legal protections didn't come easily. I think we've got a civic duty to defend them. Do you really think Americans should fear prison for demanding that police behave properly?

A judge dressing down a cop is no big deal. It doesn't change anything. Putting a spotlight on bad behavior does. Jail may be full of assholes, but so are a lot of police forces. You're obviously a guy who is willing to go along to get along. I've never been that way and it's a little late in the game for me to change. "Pushing a cop"? Where did I suggest physical confrontation with an armed-to-the-teeth thug who can probably get away with killing you?

Ain't nothing radical about exercising your constitutional rights. Yes, you should always get names and badge numbers in case you want to file a complaint. Why do I give a damn where he lives? I'm not planning on stalking anybody for Christ's sake.

[buttslinger]

For every black person that is wrongfully pulled over by a cop, there are fifty that are rightfully pulled over by a cop. And every one protests their innocence.
In theory I agree with you, but in practice, reading the Constitution to a cop during a traffic stop is just going to get you more tickets, and none of these people getting killed in the news lately were Mahatma Gandhi or Rosa Parks, they were petty criminals who died because they DISSED the guy with the gun and badge. The Police are professionals and above getting dissed. They're usually above you on the ground slapping cuffs on your wrists. If you want to be a crusader go fight ISIS or join the PEACE CORPS. Running into a bad cop is just like running over a nail. Arguing with a nail will get you the same amount of justice as arguing with a cop.

[fred41]

There's nothing wrong with standing up for your constitutional rights, but there are more prudent ways and moments to do that. Taking a name and badge number and filing a complaint makes perfect sense....but I understand when emotionally we do shit that isn't always the safest route. Sometimes we're just tired. Arguing with a guy who has a gun isn't always the wisest course. You only know that he has a badge...you don't know how much time he has on the job...you don't know if his wife just left with his kids...you don't know if today was the day he discovered he was Bi-polar....you only know that he has a gun, and at the moment, you don't.
her traffic stop could have been totally legitimate...so far I haven't seen the ruling on that...But yanking her out of her car?! That's just nuts. if he ran her license then he probably would have seen some unpaid fines and shit but do you really want to put a young woman in jail over an argument...I know I wouldn't. At worst he could've just written her an actual summons if he wanted to...which of course, may also have escalated the moment , but maybe not.

This was a real train wreck. a horrible tragedy. I almost want someone to have killed her because suicide seems almost impossible. But maybe in total...it was all too much. Getting arrested, spending several days in jail for bullshit, probably losing a job that she just got, maybe she suffered from depression to begin with (there seems to be some evidence that she may have been a cutter)...I don't know. She also seemed perfectly docile in the facility footage...so it's not like she was over the top argumentative.

Yes...her standing up for her rights may have gotten a bad cop off the road...and she can be thanked by all the future bad arrests he won't make.
But at the end of the day, a beautiful young woman is dead...
and if she was my daughter, I'd grieve and be proud that she stood up for her rights.
but I'd also wish the fuck she was alive ...and secretly wish she would've just taken the warning.
it doesn't make us sheep.

[buttslinger]

and if she was my daughter, I'd grieve...


Freddy, if she was your daughter she'd be bailed out five minutes after she called you from the police station, and the grieving process would have lasted a little bit longer than the five minutes it took Mom to call Johnnie Cochran.
There is a segment of the black population that looks at Justice completely different than White Man's Justice. That's a problem. Maybe that's THE problem.
White people presume the Justice System is going to have a 5% fuck-up zone.
Black people presume the system has a 95% fuck-up zone. WORD!!

[Cuchulain]

Ya know buttslinger, you've got some of that same bullshit going on that cops use to muddy the water after they are caught misbehaving. They always try to make the victim look bad. Dissing an officer or being a petty criminal doesn't justify being shot, tased, pepper sprayed, beaten or falsely arrested. It's not just a Black thing either. Darker folks get targeted more often but it happens to white folk too.

Is there any point at which you WOULD assert your rights? If pulled over, do you answer all the garbage questions cops ask, like where you coming from, where you headed, where do you work, etc? How about if they ask to search your car? Suppose you're merely a passenger in the vehicle or just stopped walking down the street. Would you answer questions, provide ID? How about police at your home? Would you let them enter, or search without a warrant? Would you ever pull out your camera?

Btw, calmly asserting your rights when dealing with police is not the same thing as arguing with them, nor does it make one a "crusader". I tend to think it makes us good citizens.

[broncofan]

I don't blame Sandra Bland as she was clearly the victim of an officious, bullying officer. The officer had no right to tell her to put out her cigarette. But if I were asked by a police officer to put out a cigarette, would I? I'm almost certain I would. That is not a judgment of her...but I really would not want to piss off an officer over something that does not mean very much to me.

I have been asked to exit my vehicle when I posed no threat whatsoever to anyone on two occasions. On one of the occasions the officer was clearly unstable and told me one of his fellow officers had died a week prior because someone was driving exactly how I was driving. But in the end he didn't tell me how I was driving or end up citing me. He calmed down and let me go.

I understand the risks are greater for African-Americans. But I simply would not argue with a police officer. If an officer asked to search my car I might say no. I know they are not allowed to use the assertion of my constitutional rights as probable cause to justify a search they didn't have cause for to begin with. But then again, if I thought it would be more expedient, I might say yes, believing the search of my car doesn't really invade my privacy. Typically when I'm pulled over my first goal is to get through the interaction and avoid getting a ticket.

By the way, none of what I'm saying mean people who have been arrested without cause or shot are not victims. I am only talking about my own personal policy when dealing with armed officers.

[broncofan]

Cuchulain,
You sort of ask where the slippery slope ends. It's a fair question. If you're not willing to assert your rights over small matters, when will you? I would not let an officer into my home without a warrant. I would not submit to a body cavity search if I was not in custody. Not to be gross, but these are the two things I can think of.

I probably would allow an officer to search my car. If an officer had some trumped up reason for wanting to take me for a station house arrest I would go along rather than get into a physical altercation. Officers violate the constitution every day. That doesn't justify it...when the constitution is violated evidence can't be used against you at trial. The fact that this is the remedy means that some line-crossing is contemplated...invasive searches, premature arrests. The real violation I would be trying to avoid with an officer is the one that can't be remedied. If they shoot you, you never get due process. Again, they would be at fault, but there are ways of minimizing risk when dealing with people who don't seem quite right and are armed.

[buttslinger]

Ya know buttslinger,.....
Is there any point at which you WOULD assert your rights?
Btw, calmly asserting your rights when dealing with police is not the same thing as arguing with them, nor does it make one a "crusader". I tend to think it makes us good citizens.

Unfortune-ately, any time the Po-Po appear in my life, it's when I'm actually not a very good citizen, in fact I'm kind of a PUNK.
It hurts my brain to try and remember the countless dealings I've had with the police on the side of the road, or whatever. Usually, it's some variation of me going fifteen miles per hour over the speed limit. No discussion necessary.
One Time, and I think it was only one time a cop accused me of doing something I didn't do, and yeah, I started going off in his face, and he just turned around and walked away.
I try to put myself in the cop's shoes and look at it from his side. The Police don't consider what they do a GAME, but I admit for me it's just kind of a cat and mouse game where I am the mouse and the cop is the cat. And if some kind of JUDGE or impartial ARBITER had been available in my traffic stops, I'd probably be in jail now. The cops cut me lots of breaks.

As far as a Sandra Bland type deal, one time I threw a pen at a cop after I signed the speeding ticket, I got caught in a speed trap trying to avoid bumper to bumper traffic and I was in a REAL bad mood. . TWO DAYS later the cop shows up at my job by complete coincidence, he was real nice and I felt embarrassed.

You can't fault the cops because we live in a racist society. The cops don't target jigs, they target CRIMINALS.
You can debate what a criminal is, especially since so many guys in jail are in there for smoking pot.
You can debate whether or not a guy who goes to work all week has the right to have a few drinks on Saturday Night and drive home.
But when a cop asks you for your license and registration, there's no debate, you give it to him.

[trish]

The cops don't target jigs, they target CRIMINALS.That may be the official line, but you’re out of touch if you believe to be true of all ‘cops.’ Being pulled over for driving while black is a real and frequent phenomenon.

Like I said above, I personally am always polite and act respectfully toward the police, even when I know I’ve been pulled over for no reason at all.

“What’s that bag on the floor?”
“It’s a bottle of eyeliner and some nylon footies I just bought at the pharmacy, officer. Shall I retrieve it for you, Sir?”

When I hand him the bag, I’m nervous, 'cause I’m never absolutely sure he won’t drop some weed in it and claim it’s mine. Shit happens, and these days I’m can’t be sure I won’t be shot “tryin’ to get away.”

Of course, there are police officers I don’t have to pretend to respect - because I do respect them. In fact, most of the ones I've come to know...but not all. The percentage who can’t be trusted seems to be alarmingly high.


when a cop asks you for your license and registration, there's no debate, you give it to him. True as far as it goes. But the penalty for debate isn't death. I would like to hear you say it’s not victim’s fault that he’s now slumped behind the wheel and bleeding out. The full responsibility lies with the officer who pulled his weapon and shot someone because he was - what? Who knows what? Pissed off? Scared shitless of black people? High? On a lark? What?

In the recent Cincinnati case, a driver was shot by a campus policeman. When you were college age, did the campus police carry guns?

A decade ago police organizations endorsed firearm regulation and argued against concealed carry. But today, many take the opposite stance. I haven’t researched this (maybe others in the know can disabuse me) but my theory is that over the last decade or so, the new recruits who have been percolating up the ranks tend to be conservative and tend to be part of the gun culture. It seems to me, from the vids that we been seeing, that many police have gun dependency issues: they too often escalate rather than defuse conflict and too soon reach for their firearms.

[yodajazz]

Unfortune-ately, any time the Po-Po appear in my life, it's when I'm actually not a very good citizen, in fact I'm kind of a PUNK.
It hurts my brain to try and remember the countless dealings I've had with the police on the side of the road, or whatever. Usually, it's some variation of me going fifteen miles per hour over the speed limit. No discussion necessary.
One Time, and I think it was only one time a cop accused me of doing something I didn't do, and yeah, I started going off in his face, and he just turned around and walked away.
I try to put myself in the cop's shoes and look at it from his side. The Police don't consider what they do a GAME, but I admit for me it's just kind of a cat and mouse game where I am the mouse and the cop is the cat. And if some kind of JUDGE or impartial ARBITER had been available in my traffic stops, I'd probably be in jail now. The cops cut me lots of breaks.

As far as a Sandra Bland type deal, one time I threw a pen at a cop after I signed the speeding ticket, I got caught in a speed trap trying to avoid bumper to bumper traffic and I was in a REAL bad mood. . TWO DAYS later the cop shows up at my job by complete coincidence, he was real nice and I felt embarrassed.

You can't fault the cops because we live in a racist society. The cops don't target jigs, they target CRIMINALS.
You can debate what a criminal is, especially since so many guys in jail are in there for smoking pot.
You can debate whether or not a guy who goes to work all week has the right to have a few drinks on Saturday Night and drive home.
But when a cop asks you for your license and registration, there's no debate, you give it to him.

Racism is hard to prove. They can always cite some other reason. One say they tend to have more vigorous, enforcement in poorer communities. This is why ghettos, and housing policies are important. Historically the federal government had some responsibility in maintaining restrictive housing practices. But here's one example; police consider it as possible suspicious activity to drive slowly in 'high crime' areas. And the stop people for that reason. I was pulled over once, and questioned why I was in the neighborhood,late at night, but I was picking up someone from work. But the police can always justify violence, by saying the other person assaulted them. There is one recent video where a policeman is saying relating to a stopped driver trying grab his weapon, when the video action appears much different. In the Walter Scott case the officer, claims he tried to grab his stun gun. There is video proof of police planting drug evidence. There is even a evidence of planting guns. All the need to do is keep a spare weapon that they confiscated from someone. The media often contributes. In the case of 12 year old Tamir Rice, a reporter published information on his parents legal issues. That has nothing to do with poor police tactics.

[fred41]

In the recent Cincinnati case, a driver was shot by a campus policeman. When you were college age, did the campus police carry guns?



I thought that was odd too. I can't tell you what I remember from my college age, since I never went to college, but I couldn't understand what the officer was doing making traffic stops. I pretty much assumed, probably like most of you, that campus police worked on campus grounds. In my mind, specialized law enforcement/security forces would be mostly limited to their jurisdictions because, to me, that makes the most sense. Why?...because in my opinion, though certain specialized police officers are sometimes better trained in their individual academies...they're never going to have the actual everyday training that you really can only gain in everyday on the street experience. Also..sometimes, at least in my view, the physical and emotional requirements are different.
But then I read this:
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/01/us/samuel-duboses-death-in-cincinnati-points-to-off-campus-power-of-college-police.html?_r=0

[trish]

It occurred to me that the campus of the University of Cincinnati is broken into two or three islands with city in between. One of the islands is a newly acquired medical research complex. This may have contributed to a felt need for the campus police to patrol the "waters" between the islands.

Public police forces everywhere are feeling the pressure of the private sector: http://nyti.ms/1IN9VSF

[buttslinger]

If I were black, I might see compliance as UncleTomance, Whitey is bad enough, but Whitey with a badge and gun is too much!
I don't think a dozen moronic white cops doth a conspiracy make, but if it sets off nationwide demonstrations and riots, there is certainly something rotten in Denmark.

But I would have to believe that most of the time a ticket is just a ticket and most asshole cops don't even realize they're assholes.

I remember when the hippies hired the Hells Angels to police the Altamont concert, that was the end of the Woodstock Nation.

I see no solution.

[broncofan]

The problem is that police officers profile, and the profile is not based on particular circumstances but broad generalizations. I can tell you that the difference between my treatment by officers is about two fold better than it was when I was twenty. My treatment by officers is also better now that I own a slightly nicer car. When my previous car was keyed and looked like shit, I got pulled over more often. Yet none of these things changed my risk of committing a crime or being a danger to anyone.

Officers seem to have a profile of a young black male as being worthy of suspicion. It is unfair because nobody responds well to harassment and the people they are harassing have done nothing wrong. This ingrained stereotype, combined with reckless misuse of authority, is resulting in tragedies. It's a difficult problem to address because it is occurring across departments....but officers should be trained to treat members of the public with respect and not to engage in arbitrary displays of authority.

The Cincinnati officer is a great example of this last premise. If you listen to the video, you can hear him acting like a complete dickhead before he shoots Mr. Dubose without any cause whatsoever. Mr. Dubose tells him he is a licensed driver but does not have the license with him and the officer seems determined to quibble over the terminology before accusing him of having a suspension. It is a big leap from being rude to pulling out your gun and shooting someone for no reason but somehow I think they must be related. It is the belief that officers can bully members of the public for the perceived greater good that results in them severely misusing their authority and pulling out their guns.

[buttslinger]

I don't even get FOX NEWS on my cable service anymore, (am I going to miss Trump Thursday night!! oh no!!)
summer TV is too boring to even turn on, so I'm missing a lot of the stuff about these shootings, sounds like a cut and dried manslaughter conviction for said Cincinnati Cop.

I used to drive to an INFAMOUS tittie bar in Maryland, back then you could buy a Budweiser in a can for a couple bucks, and you could get an early version of a lap dance for one or two dollars. There was a fast food place almost next door, but you had to loop around on the divided highway for less than a hundred yards, so as I was I circling to go get some coffee and chill for a while before my drive, this hot shit state cop pulls me over for DUI, when I hadn't even probably got up to 25mph!! He was obviously sitting across the street from said notorious tittie bar to look for tipsy drivers with out of state plates. I was furious, I thought I passed my field test, at the police station, I blew just over the intoxicated number, I think it was 1.0 back then, and when we got to the Magistrate in the Jail Bldg, I was telling the Magistrate this cop was an asshole, I wanted a blood test, and the Magistrate sided with the cop of course, I was just one more belligerent drunk. In the back seat cage of the police car, I could see the speedometer of the cop car going 30 miles over the limit as he carted me off to the slam. I was chewing nails by that point. ...Fuckin' Cops.

On the TV show BAIT CAR, they don't drop the bait car off in the white suburbs, they drop in off in gangbanger territory. It usually takes about 5 minutes before some black or Hispanic dude hops in the car and speeds off. When the cops pull them over, EVERY ONE of them says "I was moving it for the lady" or "I was taking it to the police station"

When Black Harvard University professor Henry Louis Gates got back from a trip to China, he had to force his front door open, somebody called the cops and said "Some Jig is breaking into a real nice House!!!""
When the cops got there they treated this Harvard Professor like a criminal, and President Obama was very vocal about asshole cops jumping to conclusions, it led to the BEERGATE summit meeting on the White House lawn.
What's a brother got to do to stop being hassled by THE MAN?????!!!!
Move to the Middle East, I guess.

When I lived in a bad neighborhood, black kids broke into my house twice and stole my stuff, even little kids would walk in!!!!!
My car was spray painted, my fence was broken all the time. etc etc etc.

I moved to a more expensive neighborhood, and the only problem I ever had was signing the mortgage check every month.

I don't think UNDERSTANDING is the solution here, I think people pretty much understand what's going on. When people on this site see a picture of Ben in L.A. walking down the street with a famous TS superstar on each arm, there is great admiration and envy when they say.....
"How the Fuck did that Black Bastard score those two chicks?????!!!!!!"
But all of Iowa says........
"Why isn't that black bastard in jail yet?"
Is there anyone who really doesn't understand this?

[Stavros]

One of the problems which you have in the USA, which we also have in the UK, is what happens after someone has been arrested if they are not also shot dead at the time, and that is sending people to prison. I think that one of the reasons why Sandra Bland may have killed herself is not just that she was in the County Jail when she was not a threat to anyone and when she was not going to disappear because she was committed to a job in Texas, but that she may have believed her chances of being sent to prison were high because she was Black, and for her that was in effect a death sentence. In addition, although I cannot prove it is the case, I wonder how many people who have two convictions when pulled over by an officer are thrown into a panic because they realise if they are arrested, charged, tried and found guilty they will spend the rest of their lives in prison, and have nothing to lose so crank up the confrontation with the arresting officer.

Prison should be reserved for those people who are a threat to themselves and to others, and alternative forms of punishment should be found for others such as shoplifting, fraud or being in possession of narcotics for personal use. I believe the prison industry in the USA is now worth something like $37 billion a year most of which is taxpayer's money going to private companies who clearly would not be in business if there were no 'customers' or 'clients'. But we now have a proposal in the UK to prosecute landlords who let property to illegal immigrants and then sending them to jail as punishment -a proposal so daft I don't expect it to ever become law, but why is there an obsession with locking people up when there are other ways of dealing with offences against the law?

I wonder if prison time does not destroy lives, rather than rehabilitate convicted offenders. And when you look at some of the crimes that land people in jail for years and years, you wonder if it is really justice. Time for 'three strikes and you're out' to be re-considered.

[buttslinger]

I think it's a safe bet that THE JUDGE who throws the bottom social caste into the slammer has gotten the OK sign from the pencil pushers who figure the bottom feeders are already on welfare, food stamps, Medicaid, and any other social program they can qualify for. CRIME#ONE in the USA is not paying Uncle Sam his cut.
While prisons might cost 37 billion, Criminals are known for not liking to pay their taxes, and we want our citizens to buy stuff that can get taxed again and again, not drugs and pussy and stolen merchandise.

[yodajazz]

...

...

When I lived in a bad neighborhood, black kids broke into my house twice and stole my stuff, even little kids would walk in!!!!!
My car was spray painted, my fence was broken all the time. etc etc etc.

I moved to a more expensive neighborhood, and the only problem I ever had was signing the mortgage check every month.

I don't think UNDERSTANDING is the solution here, I think people pretty much understand what's going on.

You're experience in 'the hood', is an important to me, in that it is an example of what our youth need to learn. And that is, how crime in the hood, is hurting the community and the entire race. It can even be shown with numbers-dollars. If you stayed in the hood, you would have probably stopped at neighbor hood store, or a close gas station, a bite to eat, such as, fast food. So crimes helped to drive your money out of the hood. One could estimate what you may have spent in the hood, vs the amount someone got for the stuff they stole from you. The key the need to understanding, is that people are potential, as well their present self, among other important things. The community would have benefitted much more if the youth had introduced you, to their sisters. The concepts of networking and accumulation of wealth should be at least introduced, to youth. While racism is a terrible thing, the reality is self love would accomplish more, and eventually reduce the rationale for racism. I plan on taking action, on putting something real in place. It can make a difference, if it spread, I believe.

[Loud Love]

Love you Tempest. Couldn't agree more. It's not the party but the status quote. They have both aligned with Big Biz over time and play us like a cheap recorder. As long as we feed on what is fed to us,...?

[trish]

This evening's enlightening PBS interview with two chiefs of police (Milwaukee and St. Louis)

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/videos/#152286

[Stavros]

I think it's a safe bet that THE JUDGE who throws the bottom social caste into the slammer has gotten the OK sign from the pencil pushers who figure the bottom feeders are already on welfare, food stamps, Medicaid, and any other social program they can qualify for. CRIME#ONE in the USA is not paying Uncle Sam his cut.
While prisons might cost 37 billion, Criminals are known for not liking to pay their taxes, and we want our citizens to buy stuff that can get taxed again and again, not drugs and pussy and stolen merchandise.

You might want to give this issue more thought by asking if incarceration is actually costing the US taxpayer more than food stamps. Setting aside the more general economic argument that if people had jobs on a living wage they would not only not be claiming food stamps or welfare but be net contributors to the US economy, your own country provides a range of statistics, such as:

According to the U.S. Bureau of Prisons, the average annual cost of incarceration in Federal prisons in 2010 was $28,284 per inmate. That cost is reduced at the Federal Community Corrections Centers; in 2010 the annual cost was $25,838.
According to the California Legislative Analyst's Office, the annual cost of incarceration in the Golden State in 2009 was $47,102 per year. To arrive at this figure, California analysts took into account the cost of security, health care, operations, administration, support, and rehabilitation programs. Annual costs per inmate in California have almost doubled since the beginning of the 21st century.
The cost of incarceration climbs according to the level of security. The Supermax federal prison in Colorado spends about $60,000 per year to keep inmates in permanent isolation. The most expensive American prison is located in Cuba: Housing an inmate in Guantanamo Bay costs taxpayers approximately $900,000 per year.

According to the Vera Institute of Justice, the average cost of housing an inmate in the U.S. was $31,286 in 2012. New York had the highest cost at $31,286 and Kentucky the lowest at $14,603.
http://thelawdictionary.org/article/what-is-the-average-cost-to-house-inmates-in-prison/

The point being: ask yourself, as a tax-paying citizen: is this value for money?

[buttslinger]

I tried to reply earlier and it got lost in cyberspace, but I'll respond to Stavros.
As a tax paying citizen it makes much more sense to throw a guy in jail who pays for his 24/7 party lifestyle with crime, rather than a middle class guy who sniffs cocaine on the weekend.
Part of the reason Donald Trump is getting such rave reviews is many people want a President who will use the Police Force to do what they can't: confront a Mexican in 7-11 and ask him for documentation. Or drive some SWAT teams into the ghetto and take out the trash.
So no, on paper the taxpayer doesn't exactly make money locking up an inner city youth, but IV DRUG USER Tyrone probably has three kids he doesn't support, is at great risk of contracting AIDS, steals everything he can, and basically lets whitey clean up his mess.

Even in a bad neighborhood, the majority of people pay property taxes, hold down one or two jobs, and are tight with their families. But they all have bars on their windows because of a bad element that takes and takes and doesn't give. So putting them in jail is kind of like getting a much better return for your money than some white guy who shoots his wife.

[broncofan]

But what you're recommending isn't working. We incarcerate people for minor crimes but because we have a Constitution and can't hold people indefinitely because we think they're going to become career criminals they are then released. Even if they want a second chance they can't get one because they have a conviction on their record. I can't think of a worse way to manage our country than to incarcerate people for minor crimes and give them no road back to making a living.

On paper we lose money locking people up....and we keep them from ever being self-sufficient again. I can't see how that helps anyone or anything. And if we don't lock up the middle class guy who snorts cocaine we shouldn't lock anyone else up for it either. Selective enforcement of the laws breeds distrust.

[broncofan]

Part of the reason Donald Trump is getting such rave reviews is many people want a President who will use the Police Force to do what they can't: confront a Mexican in 7-11 and ask him for documentation.
Low hanging fruit, but I will point out that there are literally millions of people who are of Mexican heritage but U.S. citizens. Not even naturalized citizens but in many cases citizens at birth. You can't have police officers go up to anyone who's of Mexican descent and start harassing them. If that view makes a person popular we're all in a lot of trouble.

[buttslinger]

I'm telling you, black folks that come out of Church and see drug dealers and whores on the sidewalk side with me on this.
How can you say checking Mexican's green cards offends the Nation and millions of illegal inhabitants doesn't?

[broncofan]

How do I know who sides with you? I'm sure black folks leaving church love you, but that's not really the issue. I'm just saying I don't think selectively prosecuting people for minor offenses to bulk up their rap sheet does anyone a service. If someone commits a minor crime in their early 20's their life shouldn't be over.

Interrogating people on the sole basis that they're hispanic is not police work. There's a difference between generalized suspicion and particularized suspicion. I don't think the cost of harassing people based solely on their background is worth the benefit of capturing a handful of illegal immigrants.

[Stavros]

I tried to reply earlier and it got lost in cyberspace, but I'll respond to Stavros.
As a tax paying citizen it makes much more sense to throw a guy in jail who pays for his 24/7 party lifestyle with crime, rather than a middle class guy who sniffs cocaine on the weekend.
Part of the reason Donald Trump is getting such rave reviews is many people want a President who will use the Police Force to do what they can't: confront a Mexican in 7-11 and ask him for documentation. Or drive some SWAT teams into the ghetto and take out the trash.
So no, on paper the taxpayer doesn't exactly make money locking up an inner city youth, but IV DRUG USER Tyrone probably has three kids he doesn't support, is at great risk of contracting AIDS, steals everything he can, and basically lets whitey clean up his mess.

Even in a bad neighborhood, the majority of people pay property taxes, hold down one or two jobs, and are tight with their families. But they all have bars on their windows because of a bad element that takes and takes and doesn't give. So putting them in jail is kind of like getting a much better return for your money than some white guy who shoots his wife.

As I am not an American and don't live there I can't really say much more -I am not sure how many people who make a living selling dope are living a 24/7 party lifestyle, that sounds to me like Miami Vice rather than The Wire; but as Broncofan has eloquently put it, the economic case for incarceration has not been made, if anything, it is making the situation worse. One only hopes that this will be debated by candidates who seek to be your President over the next year or so.

[buttslinger]

Millions of illegal aliens, .....residential neighborhoods with bars on the windows, these were not the idea of THE POLICE STATE, they result from people who want to take things that are not theirs.
I assure you that THE POLICE STATE understands that most Hispanics are really nice people and probably work harder than both whites or blacks. And that a poor black kid never caught a break in his life.
THE POLICE STATE knows that not only are Prisons expensive, they are overpopulated.

There are two ways to approach this-
the people in jail are scum
the cops are scum

It's not enough to say that what the police are doing is wrong, you have to come up with a plan that actually solves the problem. You don't want Nazi brownshirts kicking down doors at 3AM, but you don't want Jesus as Chief of Police, either. I assure you uncategorically that whatever plan you come up with, the criminal element will immediately start examining it for weaknesses and opportunities to exploit.

While you don't want to ruin some kids life forever because his friends are assholes, you don't want law abiding citizens to suffer because Tyrone and his homies decided it would be fun to break into all the cars in the street.

Just like when you take a Mexican back to Mexico and he comes right back, when you put Tyrone in jail for just six months, he starts bangin' as soon as he gets out.

I GUARANTEE you the way "WE" are doing it now is woeful. But please don't mistake the inner city for Mayberry and Tyrone for Otis.
If you are a teacher- who are you going to spend most of your limited time with....the A students, or the F students? You remember the F students in school, don't you?

[stimpy17]

Well "Hope and change" is what the man said he wanted to give us, I didn't vote for him.

[trish]

You have to accept it before you get it. Too many aren't yet ready. (BTW, where's Ted Cruz's birth certificate?)

[broncofan]

I have to say that's a more lucid post from you buttslinger (I don't mean that to be condescending even if it sounds that way). But don't you think that's a little extreme...I can't criticize the way our criminal justice system operates unless I come up with a comprehensive alternative? How about not doing the things that don't work...that's always the implied alternative.

I think there are hints of what we should do in this thread: a) a living wage, b) better programs to integrate ex-cons back into society, c) police officers who don't demand people behave like bootlickers because it makes them feel important and punish them if they don't, d) not rushing to incarcerate young adults the first time they screw up.

I agree with you that we should be tough on certain types of crime. If we do a better job of giving people a stake in this society, you still are left with gang violence. You still are left with illegal immigrants who don't feel accountable to the society they live in and don't deserve to be here. I get that. But the idea of bearing down harder on everyone is not working. Lock up the people who commit armed robbery, murder, or who are part of a violent criminal enterprise. I'm all for it.

The last thing I'll say is that we are not left with the choice that either the cops are scum or the people are scum and that's why we have so many incarcerated people. We've made the conscious choice to punish "undesirables" in a way that other countries find counter-productive. We don't rehabilitate people with our institutions but rather wreck their lives.

[buttslinger]

I can't make a serious post here because I have absolutely no qualifications in this field, jack-off of all trades, masturbator of none.
Basically you have only two real choices- law and order candidate, or social awareness candidate. I am a Democrat, but I believe in giving the Devil his due.
Until you can stop spending a trillion in Iraq, borrowed from China, you simply cannot AFFORD to address social ills, then that leads to more crime, then that leads to more prison costs.
Obama has said time after time that everybody has to donate a few weekends to come out and meet your neighbors and together, tackle the problems at our cumulative feet. But nobody wants to give up their weekend after a week of strum and drang. I mean, it's bad....but it's not THAT bad........

[trish]

As a tax paying citizen it makes much more sense to throw a guy in jail who pays for his 24/7 party lifestyle with crime, rather than a middle class guy who sniffs cocaine on the weekend.
As a tax paying citizen, I would like to see Wall Street bankers, Corporations and their CEO, and other assorted billionaires pay an appropriate share of the revenue that is requisite to the maintenance of a huge democratic-republic such as ours. If we’re to run the government as a business, then tell me please: What business thrives by strangling its revenue stream? Our economy suffers more from the under-the-table practices of our monied elite than it does from gang bangers, petty thieves, meth heads and vandals.

I live in an rural town. The three big sources of jobs are the university, the one large department store belonging to a national franchise, and one factory owned by a large national corporation. Since only the university has a union (although the governor is posed to bust it) most of the workers in town are underpaid. We have a higher than average poverty rate and it is the poor and middle class homeowners who shoulder the brunt of the State and local taxes, not the university (which as a State entity can’t be taxed, the corporate owned department store or the corporate owned factory (which have their own loopholes and strategizing for paying next to zero taxes) or the CEOs (who never stepped foot in our town). We make sure impoverished children are fed at a discount in the school cafeteria. We just increased the tax on homeowners to cover some necessary road repairs which is used by the trucks that supply the store and factory.

Meth is the drug of choice around here. You should know that’s not really a black person thing. Even though the local meth chemists and junkies steal from homeowners, farmers (who store tanks of nitrates used in the “manufacture” of meth), and are sometimes a threat to person as well as property, I frankly don’t see how throwing them all in jail forever for their 24/7 party lifestyle would allow us to hire more teachers or repair the not-up-to-code bridge just south of the square on Main Street. I would suggest we raise taxes on the two corporate presences in town, except if we did that, they’d pull up roots and move to another town or state (because they can get tax breaks and loopholes elsewhere) taking their low paying jobs with them. Then even more of our local people would find themselves partying 24/7. To get dragged off to that ‘party’ you don’t need to be of a particular race, or be too lazy to work.

[buttslinger]

.. I would like to see Wall Street bankers, Corporations and their CEO, and other assorted billionaires pay an appropriate share of the revenue that is requisite to the maintenance of a huge democratic-republic such as ours...What business thrives by strangling its revenue stream? Our economy suffers more from the under-the-table practices of our monied elite than it does from gang bangers, petty thieves, meth heads and vandals.

I live in an rural town....Meth is the drug of choice around here. You should know that’s not really a black person thing. ....

You can bet the Kings of Wall St have CPAs that have calculated just how much they can starve the horse before it stops pulling the cart.
In 1946, any Milkman could own a little house and support a wife and three kids. There was a movie that year about the panic caused by a murderer loose on the streets of New York!!!! I think my point, if I have one, is that "society" and the "individual" share blame in where we find ourselves now.
You can't blame a Corporation for making money. As was done when Monopolies used their power to crush their competitors, it is up to the Government to come up with laws that maintain a level playing field. A balance between Labor and Management. How boring.
It's important to come up with questions that can be answered. There are many mysteries that can never be solved. It is much easier to throw a junkie with a gun in jail than a Corporate CEO with an army of lawyers. You can't ignore some punk robbing houses because a CEO isn't nice.
Every American is expected to carry his own weight. There is no question that every American is carrying much more weight than in 1946, you tell me who to blame.
When I talk about the 24/7 party lifestyle, I'm not talking yachts and caviar, I'm talking about people who have given up on the American Dream, and get high and do crime all day. Outside of the Green Bay Packers, most people in Wisconsin are White, why they're into meth, I have no idea.
Most criminals aren't born criminal, it's a slow descent. Every criminal is different, but I think there is no question that Prisons are overcrowded because of DRUGS. It makes absolutely no sense why people would want to live as a two bit criminal until you factors drugs into the equation. I don't really think you can blame CEOs for Drug Abuse.
The WAR on DRUGS has been a dismal failure, it would probably be better to get rid of drugs rather than CEOs, but this is one more real problem that nobody has figured out how to solve yet. Maybe you should outlaw drugs. Oh yeah, they are outlawed. That's why the prisons are packed.

[trish]

You can't blame a Corporation for making money...You can't ignore some punk robbing houses because a CEO isn't nice...Most criminals aren't born criminal, it's a slow descent.

What I don’t understand is why you seem to drawn so to false dichotomies and other weird and fallacious steps of ill-logic.

Apparently, I can blame society, the government and individuals for “where we find ourselves now,” or I can blame corporations...but not both. I don’t mind sharing the responsibility, but I’m not shouldering it all. We can and we should blame corporations, bankers, CEOs and all the other billionaires who benefit greatly from “where we find ourselves now”.

You’re right, we can’t excuse a burglar from breaking and entering a home in some town somewhere in the USA, just because a CEO isn’t nice. But if the CEO and his corporation is in large part responsible for that town’s desperate economic conditions, conditions that directly induced that act of burglary, than we can’t excuse the CEO either, nor the corporation. Making the punishments for burglary stiffer and stiffer while further lessening the tax burden on corporations (which are already zero in some cases) and paying the CEO even more exorbitantly really doesn’t seem to be working, does it?...nor does it seem fair.

You're right that people aren’t born criminals. They go to Wall Street, or they move up the corporate ladder and find themselves gradually screwing the public more and more...at first merely to secure their jobs, then for the bonuses and later to line their own pockets on sly, perhaps so they can buy that beach house on the shore, or a luxury limo, or jet plane, or a politician or two. But apparently we have to let these guys go, so we can concentrate on the burglar who broke into your home a decade or so ago. If you’re rich enough you can burgle money right and left and have your particular criminal scheme declared technically legal.

[buttslinger]

I would say from an Economic standpoint that big corpa is more to blame than why so many black people are in prison. The majority of poor people aren't criminals. If I sell you a used car and you overpay, is that my fault? That's business.
It's just unrealistic to think that a Nation that killed it's parent England, imported slaves, killed Indians, even went to war with itself is going to suddenly start giving everything to poor people.
STUPIDITY is on my side. If you can talk all your associates into forming a union, I can talk them out of it. People are stupid. People in jail are the stupidest. In the end your friends let you down. They turn on you and get new friends.

[trish]

I would say from an Economic standpoint that big corpa is more to blame than why so many black people are in prison. The majority of poor people aren't criminals. If I sell you a used car and you overpay, is that my fault? That's business.If you made clear to me exactly what it was that I was buying, then the deal was fair. But saying "That's business" doesn't absolve you of blame if you knowingly hid problems that would have influenced the deal. In Trump-language, you'd be a winner and I'd be a loser; but in the estimation of a decent person, I got rooked and you were being shady.

If you say you're willing to rook stupid people to further your own ends, that's fine...in the sense that at least you're being up front. But to say that the people who operate this way aren't blameworthy is to stupidly buy into their con.

[buttslinger]

My dinner arrived, chicken and snow peas.
I have said in the past that the Big Corporations are to blame, and to some extent that's true, but they're an easy target. Most businesses fail, they usually fight amongst themselves, and without businesses and factories we'd all be dirt farmers.
The rest of the World hates us because we unfairly stick it to them to up our own standard of living. Whiners.
It used to be the entire family would work in the factories long hours for pennies. Not because the Govt condoned it, because there really wasn't much of a regulatory Govt back then. After the Depression and the A-bomb, the lights are always on in D.C.
Even in a Perfect Society, you're going to have people picking up the garbage, cleaning the toilets, shingling roofs in the hot sun. Who chooses who they are? Whose idea was that? Lots of CEOs and Slush Fund slime made excellent grades in prestigious Universities. Smartest guys in the room.
Most guys in prison didn't make it through high school.
I assure that the guys who end up in prison are no more honorable than golden parachute one percenters. The bottom one percent are most certainly more dangerous than the top one percent. They're both predatory.
If it seems I'm unclear and trying to muddy the waters I am. In a college dorm you can figure out the entire world, but when you go outside somebody stole your bike. When you go to a job interview you smile in clean clothes and make sure not to make eye contact with the janitor.
Everybody wants to score.
We've got the most Liberal President we've ever had in office, and good intentions are crucial at the top, but that doesn't mean 330 million people are going to step out into the sunshine. If anybody's to blame for the state of the Union, it's those 330 million people.

[buttslinger]

if you made clear to me exactly what it was that i was buying, then the deal was fair...
.

caveat emptor

[trish]

Even capitalism's most beloved magical incantations won't absolve you.

[buttslinger]

While I might agree with you that Corporations are the Fourth Reich, and may bring down the entire world economy, I don't think it plays much in the struggle between cops and robbers. Throughout history, there have been guys that will cut your throat for a dollar, and just because Scrooge caused the Cratchit family much sorrow, they remained good people.

I've mentioned a few times about how I used to embezzle money from my job to live a double life at the strip clubs, my actual job was a boring cakewalk compared to the Jedi mind games I had to play with my coworkers, even my boss knew I was stealing, but there was a sympathy as well as a fear we all dealt with, so I'm glad I got out of there without time in Club Fed.
I graduated from strippers to whores, and at the end I would hang out with the girls that had rooms of their own. This is where I came into contact with the 24/7 get high folks. By the time I was buying large quantity of crack cocaine, I could also get all the young pussy I wanted, stolen jewelry, guns, anything I wanted. Except by that time all I wanted was crack. One of the girls I really liked ODed, one went to prison, one died on the operating table, and one got knifed to death. Compared to my life in the suburbs, these people lead lives of adventure as well as sorrow.
I wouldn't call any of those girls evil, but until I learned the ropes I met lots of girls who wouldn't hesitate to rob me blind. Some of them just never had a chance. Broken family types. And you can bet that whatever they got arrested for, they had gotten away with a hundred times before. I tried to help one of the girls with stuff, but she would trade it for drugs. I kind of tried to stay aloof from it all, sometimes the conversations between the girls and the cops were really funny.

[trish]

I’m very sorry your friend overdosed. You’ve clearly have seen and experienced the hard side of life.


While I might agree with you that Corporations are the Fourth Reich, and may bring down the entire world economy, I don't think it plays much in the struggle between cops and robbers.

Here is where we disagree, because Wall Street did nearly crash our economy and we’re still recovering. Employment has been rising, but the rise has been stubbornly sluggish. Poor economic conditions breeds more robbers and hence escalates the struggle to which you allude. Couple that with the nationwide passage of concealed carry, and you have nervous cops as well as more cops who have, at a young age, bought into the gun culture. Layer on top of that the age old racial prejudices, the inflammatory politics of immigration, the residual prejudicial effects of 9-11 and the recent militarization and privatization of the police and you got a recipe for violence.

[wearboots4me]

The latest excuse for officers shooting unarmed people seems to be that they had marijuana in their system. I say legalize marijuana for recreational use or at least decriminalize it. I think it would prevent a lot of people from being stopped on searched by police on fishing expeditions as well.

[buttslinger]

Legalizing marijuana would certainly keep butts out of jail, and would also give teens a sense that they can have fun with their friends and not be criminals.
Less people would "drop out" of a society that doesn't look down on them.
As for Narcotics, legalizing them would put a lot of criminals out of business. At least junkies wouldn't have to steal anymore. But if you thought cigarettes were bad.......

The economy didn't crash because of big business, the economy crashed because the people of the USA elected a President TWICE who clearly opened the vaults and let his business buddies come in and take all they want. CAVEAT EMPTOR.
The USA DESERVED what they got. The people ELECTED big business.

Obama has joked that maybe it should be a law that everybody has to vote. If the sheep actually voted, the wolves would get voted out of office.
I guess my point is ....big business actually gets off their ass every day and makes things happen. They are the movers and shakers. They have a clear motive, Working stiffs just want to get through the week. You can't just WISH people would build up million dollar businesses and then give the profits to the peons. That's dumber then the trickle down theory.

I assure you that my man OBAMA is in the catbird seat to make all of Trish's dreams come true. But by design, Wall Street has more money than Obama. MONEY TALKS. You get into a dangerous place when The Government starts telling people what they can and can't do.

Don't forget, as bad as it is, it could be worse. It could be the year 2000 and Scalia is casting the deciding vote on who becomes the next President of the United States.
Obama followed by Hilary? This is as good as it gets.

[wearboots4me]

Legalizing marijuana would certainly keep butts out of jail, and would also give teens a sense that they can have fun with their friends and not be criminals.
Less people would "drop out" of a society that doesn't look down on them.
As for Narcotics, legalizing them would put a lot of criminals out of business. At least junkies wouldn't have to steal anymore. But if you thought cigarettes were bad.......


I was talking only about marijuana legalization, not harder drugs. A lot of people who don't even use it get hassled on speculation they might be in possession of it. Any drugs stronger than pot should probably still be illegal.

[buttslinger]

I was talking only about marijuana legalization, not harder drugs. A lot of people who don't even use it get hassled on speculation they might be in possession of it. Any drugs stronger than pot should probably still be illegal.

Obamacare could conceivably be a gateway toward the Govt rewarding good behavior and punishing bad behavior before you get to the point where you're a junkie or diabetic. Raising the price of cigarettes has done a lot towards making cigarettes unpopular.In the future, if illegal drugs show up on your yearly blood work, you'd basically be busted. The whole idea of Obamacare is that an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. If mom and dad don't make you eat your vegetables, the government will. Obamacare could mean that a policeman and social worker visit Tyrone BEFORE he becomes a gangbanger. The future is too important to leave to chance.

[broncofan]

Obamacare is not analogous to preemptive incarceration. One has a fundamental liberty interest in not being incarcerated based on what people think they might do. Sickness and ill health on the other hand are an inevitability, and being forced to insure against this inevitability should be a civic duty where emergency care is already mandated by law.

[buttslinger]

Obamacare is not analogous to preemptive incarceration. One has a fundamental liberty interest in not being incarcerated based on what people think they might do. Sickness and ill health on the other hand are an inevitability, and being forced to insure against this inevitability should be a civic duty where emergency care is already mandated by law.

If you go to the hospital or the doctor and test positive for heroin, you are a criminal. What does a doctor do? Under Obamacare all those blood tests go into a national database that other doctors can refer to.
The Govt actually did a good job clamping down on all that oxy that was hitting the streets a few years ago. That's why you see so much heroin now. If prison populations continue to skyrocket, it might be an ECONOMIC necessity to start drug-testing teens and get a jump on the scofflaws. If you test a 16 year old kid's hair for drug use and it shows he's been getting high every day for a year, are drugs illegal or not???

[wearboots4me]

If you go to the hospital or the doctor and test positive for heroin, you are a criminal. What does a doctor do? Under Obamacare all those blood tests go into a national database that other doctors can refer to.


Are you sure about that? Anyone who's ever been to a doctor has medical records kept by Doctors and insurance companies. That system has been around as long as there's been doctors. Obamacare is private insurance companies. It's called the "Affordable Care Act", not the government provided healthcare act. Don't get me wrong, there are some things about ACA that should be changed, but let's not play up people's paranoia.

[broncofan]

If you go to the hospital or the doctor and test positive for heroin, you are a criminal. What does a doctor do? Under Obamacare all those blood tests go into a national database that other doctors can refer to.
The Govt actually did a good job clamping down on all that oxy that was hitting the streets a few years ago. That's why you see so much heroin now. If prison populations continue to skyrocket, it might be an ECONOMIC necessity to start drug-testing teens and get a jump on the scofflaws. If you test a 16 year old kid's hair for drug use and it shows he's been getting high every day for a year, are drugs illegal or not???
What provision of PPACA are you talking about? My understanding is that HIPAA protections would still apply to electronic health records (they are treated as protected health information). I am not familiar with all of the relevant provisions of HIPAA but I don't believe it permits doctors to disclose health information to law enforcement unless subject to a subpoena or required by statute as in the case of child abuse. Anyhow, that's what I gleaned from reading this. My understanding is that nothing in PPACA supercedes or pre-empts HIPAA.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_Insurance_Portability_and_Accountability_Ac t#Privacy_Rule

I can't imagine police departments and prosecutors are randomly subpoenaing medical records so that they can charge people with possession based on old medical records. If they are, it's not something that PPACA enables them to do...it would mean they were already wasting their resources and doing it.

[broncofan]

"Covered entities may disclose protected health information to law enforcement officials for law enforcement purposes as required by law (including court orders, court-ordered warrants, subpoenas)".

This is the relevant provision. I traced it to HIPAA and it says the same thing in more detail. But my interpretation is that covered entities are permitted to disclose the information when it's required by law, such as when there's a court order or a subpoena. They cannot do so simply because they have dirty blood tests and want to help the prosecuting authority initiate cases. Notice how it does not even use mandatory language (may rather than shall), which means they can defy a court order and probably face other sanctions but not violate HIPAA.

[Cuchulain]

Obviously, discussing the 'police state' can cover a lot of interrelated areas. I thought I'd share https://www.youtube.com/user/HONORYOUROATH/videos with you all. The channel belongs to Jeff Gray. He goes around (mostly) Florida doing what he calls 'First Amendment tests'. The wildly excessive reactions he gets from security guards, police and sometimes even the military for the simple act of filming in public (a constitutionally protected behavior) is sometimes comical, sometimes infuriating.

Jeff does this stuff really well. He's calm, confident and never breaks the law although he does get arrested from time to time. He usually litigates those instances and he always wins. YouTube has a lot of similar posters but Jeff is the best, imo. I think what he does is important and I'm glad he's got the patience to do it right. What do you folks think?

[Cuchulain]

Here's one of my favorite examples of Jeff's work.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3N_tDh9wz8U

[buttslinger]

"Covered entities may disclose protected health information to law enforcement officials for law enforcement purposes as required by law (including court orders, court-ordered warrants, subpoenas)".....
MUCH of Obamacare is about preventive medicine. No doctor routinely tests for drugs, but if a patient obviously has track marks, and is in a sense killing himself, what does the doctor do? Watch his patient die? Scold him? Wait til the cops catch up to him after he robs lots of houses? I don't know.

[broncofan]

Here's one of my favorite examples of Jeff's work.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3N_tDh9wz8U
I've got to admit I enjoyed it. As long as he is recording and it uploads right away I suppose what happens is witnessed by recording. I would not be able to maintain my cool like that. My favorite part was when he asked the guy the statute he's violating and the guy says "security purposes". I personally don't think it's practical for the layman to take that risk but I understand your view and it's great to see heavy-handed abuse thwarted.

[Stavros]

I think a more objective view is needed here. If you were living in a police state, I doubt any of you would be posting messages on HungAngels, and would probably only have access to it through the 'dark web'. There is a point at which the data being collected on individuals, and the degree of intervention in daily life by law enforcement crosses many boundaries of what I assume Americans think is acceptable, but a police state is usually a one-party state which controls everything from the borders on the ground to the borders of your mind. You may have deep problems with law enforcement but I don't think that is even remotely close to the USA becoming a 'police state'. The irony is that in the UK we often feel the issue is one of police neglect to do their duty rather than being over-zealous...and as Cuchulain's posts try to point out, you do still have the legal, constitutional right to challenge law enforcement officers...courage!

[wearboots4me]

I think a more objective view is needed here. If you were living in a police state, I doubt any of you would be posting messages on HungAngels, and would probably only have access to it through the 'dark web'. There is a point at which the data being collected on individuals, and the degree of intervention in daily life by law enforcement crosses many boundaries of what I assume Americans think is acceptable, but a police state is usually a one-party state which controls everything from the borders on the ground to the borders of your mind. You may have deep problems with law enforcement but I don't think that is even remotely close to the USA becoming a 'police state'. The irony is that in the UK we often feel the issue is one of police neglect to do their duty rather than being over-zealous...and as Cuchulain's posts try to point out, you do still have the legal, constitutional right to challenge law enforcement officers...courage!

Yes, our country is not a real police state, thankfully. But police in some towns here in America do use unnecessary force regularly with impunity. Not to mention petty harassment of anyone considered "undesirables". Now that cellphone cameras record video, there is tons of video evidence of this online. We do have rights, trouble is, you need a lawyer to have these rights respected. Lawyers cost money, and in any case unless you are a lawyer yourself you can't have a lawyer with you 24/7. Sure, we have a lot of freedom compared to actual police states, but if a cop beats or chokes you to death because he thinks you're a "smartass", you are still dead, there's no appeal for that. So police accountability is important.

[Stavros]

Yes, our country is not a real police state, thankfully. But police in some towns here in America do use unnecessary force regularly with impunity. Not to mention petty harassment of anyone considered "undesirables". Now that cellphone cameras record video, there is tons of video evidence of this online. We do have rights, trouble is, you need a lawyer to have these rights respected. Lawyers cost money, and in any case unless you are a lawyer yourself you can't have a lawyer with you 24/7. Sure, we have a lot of freedom compared to actual police states, but if a cop beats or chokes you to death because he thinks you're a "smartass", you are still dead, there's no appeal for that. So police accountability is important.

I think that when you compare the situation today to what it was, say, before the civil rights movement reached its apex in the 1960s, there appears to have been a distinct militarization of policing -it has happened in the UK too, but not on the scale of the USA because most of our law enforcement officers are not armed with guns. Here, military-style policing tends to be limited to large demonstrations where 'kettling' is used, a manouevre using sticks and shields whereby the police 'corral' or 'kettle' people into a small space without exits which can then lead to tempers boiling over and in some cases, severe injury or death.

In the USA there were major demonstrations against the US involvement in Vietnam as well as Civil Rights, and I wonder if policing changed in order to deal with large gatherings of people in a relatively limited space, and how this 'militarization' of tactics in public spaces was extended to cover areas of town with gangs and drugs problems, although I think that as in the UK the epidemic of hard drug dealing and addiction took off in the 1980s, and is either coincident with, or caused by the war against the USSR in Afghanistan, as the demand for the locally grown poppies used to make heroin fuelled the 'war economy' with drugs and weapons as the main sources of revenue. Perhaps one reason why Afghanistan continues to be so difficult to rule is that farmers prefer poppies to tomatoes, though guns have always been part of the furniture in that country.

What this suggests, is that if military policing has become part of the overall policing culture, some culture change will be needed to remove the worst excesses that we associate with violent attacks on law enforcement on the one hand, and the unreasonable harassment of civilians by law enforcement on the other. But I also wonder if these trends in society are linked to what I perceive to be a decline in the concept of citizenship in which we, as citizens in a pluralist, liberal democracy expect and are expected to play a more direct role in local and national decision-making than we now do.

I think on both sides of the pond there is a feeling among many ordinary citizens that we no longer matter outside of election day, that major decisions are made by Central government in the interests of 'big capital' and interest groups with the money and power to successfully lobby legislators, be it on oil and gas exploration techniques such as 'fracking', or campaigns against abortion and planned parenthood. It is in a way ironic if one can point to gay marriage as an outcome of popular mobilisation, for it may be an isolated case of government recognising how society has changed.

It is when you look at issues such as jobs, housing and education that I think there is a widening gap between people which undermines a collective idea of citizenship as something that we share. The 'free market' culture has tended, in the UK in particular to create a more selfish agenda in which what once was considered good for society as a whole is now limited to what I think is good for me and my family. Saul Alinsky became the object of loathing among free market individualists because he believed in collective action, yet he never formed a political party or a social movement because he believed citizens had to do these things on their own initiative, if they wanted to, and crucially, organised people not to attack the state but to claim their constitutional rights and often rights available in local areas, such as Chicago which were not implemented by the city council for political or financial reasons. In this sense, citizenship empowered people to demand changes to housing and education which they already had a right to, but the weakest area is simply that nobody can create jobs on demand.

Technology is removing the human element from a substantial part of production, so that more and more jobs are found in the service sector or the 'knowledge economy' which is great if you can fit into those, but if you can't then chronic unemployment and welfare becomes the norm, as do depressed communities where communal life at its worst may be characterised by gangs and drugs -something that one associates with Baltimore, but is also common in the cities of the UK.

If there are no significant long term changes to the jobs environment, and if lawlessness continues to encourage military style policing, and if citizens continue to feel left out, these problems will not be remedied, but I feel gloomy because I don't see where enough jobs for low-or-unskilled people are going to come from to give people a daily occupation with a living wage.

A rather long winded way of saying, in this context, that policing is a reflection of social and economic change, rather than being a cause of it.

[buttslinger]

The People already have The Power, but The Police would have to bomb Pearl Harbor before the sleeping giant awakens and see the police as a real threat to them. I don't even think Black People hate the police as much as they hate whitey in general, and when an unarmed black male gets gunned down by the police, that's the perfect time to vent their rage and take it to the streets.
If THE PEOPLE screamed loudly enough against the ONE PERCENT, it wouldn't matter that they had Congress in their pocket, Congress would have to enact laws that stripped Big Business's unfair advantage.
You'll never hear white America admit that it kind of likes cops busting a few heads in the ghetto, but they do. You won't hear church ladies give an AMEN when the cops round up a bunch of tranny cocksuckers on backpage. The police and the one percent are in charge of the vengeance and avarice natures of the American public. They do the dirty work so white America can keep it's hands clean.

[Stavros]

Well at least America has the Oath Keepers, clad in body armour and sporting automatic weapons to protect them...as one of them in Ferguson said when asked

“We are not a bunch of thugs. We are trained, we are patriots, we love our country, our constitution and our fellow men and we want people to behave themselves,”

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/aug/11/oath-keepers-ferguson-automatic-rifles

[broncofan]

About a year or so ago there was a rancher named Cliven Bundy who did not want to pay to have his cows graze on federal land. We had a thread about it here and one of our former members seemed to be a big fan of the Oath Keepers. I had not heard of them until then, but they played a role as agitators in that situation, and have arrived in Ferguson looking for attention.

[wearboots4me]

It is when you look at issues such as jobs, housing and education that I think there is a widening gap between people which undermines a collective idea of citizenship as something that we share. The 'free market' culture has tended, in the UK in particular to create a more selfish agenda in which what once was considered good for society as a whole is now limited to what I think is good for me and my family.

Excellent point!

[wearboots4me]

“We are not a bunch of thugs. We are trained, we are patriots, we love our country, our constitution and our fellow men and we want people to behave themselves,”

I would like to ask that guy, what people? And behave themselves how?

[yodajazz]

In 19 days, Texas police will no longer be able to search, a woman's private parts, for marijuana in public places.

http://www.vox.com/2015/5/11/8586137/texas-body-cavity-search

[martin48]

I just add to the debate :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVHFlScMGq4

[yodajazz]

Thanks for the video. There is no question that being a police is difficult, and sometimes dangerous. I hate that anyone would make a random attack on a police officer. I think that is very wrong, and makes matters worse. That being said, something has gotten out of balance, so that the nation we used to call, 'the home of the free' now has higher incarceration rates, than countries that were considered repressive. I see the "war on drugs" as changing the nation's entire concept of individual rights. Everyone one of us is a criminal suspect because we could be carrying an illegal drug. It seems to me, that there are too many questionable deaths at the hands of police in recent years. In my book, much the responsibility goes beyond individual police behavior, to a higher tactical level. Case in point, that happen in my city. A policeman hears, what he thinks is a gunshot, coming from a passing car, although there is no physical evidence, such as breaking glass, etc. The car flees and there is a large police chase. The chase finally end with the car isolated in a school playground, with the car surrounded by maybe 100 armed police officers. There are two people in the car. Although the chase, could have caused injuries, there is no immediate evidence that the people in the car caused any injuries. What should the police do next? 100 to two is certainly tactical superiority.

Here is a more recent story, with less of a tactical advantage. Apparently as the four officers approached a vehicle they had followed, a man, who they said was a person of interest in a murder investigation opened fired four times. One bullet passed through a policeman's shirt.

http://www.clutchmagonline.com/2015/09/her-name-was-india-kager-police-gun-down-navy-vet-while-her-4-month-old-son-was-in-the-backseat/

http://wavy.com/2015/09/08/vbpd-release-new-information-images-from-officer-involved-shooting/

[buttslinger]

One of the problems with this and many other threads is you're talking about a complex subject that is a part of many other complex subjects and realities that all overlap each other.
When I'm out on the street at 3AM and I'm a bit tipsy and trying to find a ho to date, of course the Po-lice are the enemy. But the cops are following the LAW, and public drunkenness and prostitution are illegal. So it comes down mainly ...on this subject as well as many other subjects here... where you want to draw the line.
If you changed American Laws to match Amsterdam, for instance, the cops would instantly be more tolerant and less piggish. So it's not the Police, it's the Police State, the shriveled up old rich vitalis combover statutemakers that keep enacting laws that try to clamp down on hormones as much as crime.
Besides morally, you have to decide economically on who you want in jail and who you want walking around in front of your house. Or if the laws should be different for the ghetto. Should we execute guys who murder people? Should police wear cameras?
Many of the problems with criminals or even ISIS is, if you take your beloved family dog,.....and throw him out into the alley,......that dog is going to get hungry and mean and wild.
Of course then, there's my favorite, you're only guilty if you get caught.