Cliven Bundy

[Turlington]

Any opinions on the subject? Personally I think he's wrong.

[trish]

He's a subsidized, whining asshole who imagines he's entitled to freeload on everybody else's dime and threaten violence should they object. I say we hire Joni Ernst to castrate the pig.

[fred41]

Did a somewhat cursory reading on this (maybe two articles ) because I haven't heard of him before this, but...well...Trish already said it all. I really don't see his argument.
No matter what anyone's beliefs are on land use...it seems to have gone through the courts and he lost....and he doesn't own the land.
again...he doesn't own the land.
So fuck him.

[Dino Velvet]

Basically a 10 minute filler for cable news TV so America can chase its own tail in 2 argumentative directions. At times it has looked like a proxy war between Sean Hannity and Harry Reid.

I care about Al, King Kong Bundy, and Bundy Drive more than Cliven Bundy. Cliven looks like an old guy who's willing to martyr himself after the doctor gave him 6 months to live. That's one herd I'd avoid joining.

I don't know jack shit about the specifics though. Just ego flinging poo disguised as opinion.

[kittyKaiti]

Shortened version of what actually happened:

*1887: Cliven Bundy's ancestors settle in what is now modern day Clark County, Nevada. His great grandfather lawfully purchases the rights to the land now know today as Bundy Ranch. This property would be lawfully passed on to the later descendants.

*1946: The United States implements the Bureau of Land Management

*1990: The endangered desert tortoise is declared protected. The BLM attempts to force ranchers in the region to give up land and abide by new rules so ensure the survival of the desert tortoise.

*1993: The Bundy family refuses to accept new BLM regulations and ceases paying the BLM for assistance services.

*1990's: The BLM attempts on multiple occasions to sue the Bundy's and force them to pay fines and fees for disregarding BLM policies. Bundy refuses to obey the court orders and the BLM, claiming his ranch is private property.

*2008: The BLM considers the selling and leasing of federal lands to corporations for oil shale fracking use. These tar sands areas include the Bundy Ranch region.

*2013: The endangered desert tortoise, which the BLM in the region provided services to help keep alive, became the victim of mass slaughtering by the BLM. The BLM suffered a blow to its budget and proceeded to euthanize desert tortoises.

*2014: The BLM decides to attempt to seize the Bundy Ranch, claiming "to collect debts owed by the Bundy's and to protect the desert tortoise".

*April: The BLM, including over 200 federal agents and rangers, accompanied by helicopters, snipers and construction vehicles, all armed with assault weapons surround the Bundy Ranch and shut down nearby roads. Cliven Bundy says he will not comply with unconstitutional federal aggression.

The aggressive and deadly show of force used by the BLM forced Bundy to refer to the incident as "a range war". Protesters responded following disturbing photos appearing on the internet of BLM snipers taking aim on Bundy family members and their home. Protesters began to show up. In response the BLM set up a "first amendment zone" for protesters to use and say within. The protesters disregarded that zone citing the 1st Amendment applies to the entire country and all its lands. BLM rangers were aggressive against protesters.

On April 10th the protesters and Bundy family alleged the BLM was seizing Bundy cattle, killing them and burying them in the desert. Protest groups attempted to block a BLM convoy from passing through to inspect construction vehicles, including a dump truck, possibly used to illegally slaughter animals. During the confrontation, BLM rangers battered a cancer patient and a pregnant woman and tasered one of Bundy's sons.

Immediately after this, the Oath Keepers patriot organization declared a call to arms of support for Cliven Bundy, claiming the events are mimicking those of Waco and Ruby Ridge.

On April 12th, armed militiamen from across the United States began to arrive in support of Cliven Bundy and the peaceful protesters. Over the next couple of days, tensions between protesters and the BLM rangers would increase. Eventually the Bundy's gave the BLM an ultimatum to return cattle they seized or the protesters and militiamen would enter the BLM compound and retrieve the cattle themselves. The BLM surrendered a half hour later and allowed cowboys on horseback to round up the seized cattle and guide them out and back to Bundy Ranch.

*Since: The Bundy family and assisting militiamen have began to view the damage left over by the BLM. The BLM destroyed water ways, roads, fencing, water towers and utilities. They have also located mass graves of shot cattle.

*April 19: The BLM begins harassing Texan ranchers on the Oklahoma border. Despite these rancher presenting deeds to their property, the BLM is threatening forceful eviction. The ride never ends.

tl;dr? I support Cliven Bundy, the protesters and the militiamen. I wish I still lived out in Vegas and could have been there to support those heroes. It's about damn time the People stood against the tyrants in power.

[Turlington]

I'll just leave this picture here and add this...

Further context: The land is federal land, has been since 1848. By his own admission his “ancestral claim” only goes back to 1887. So when his ancestors started grazing their cattle on that land, it had already been federal land for 29 years.

[Turlington]

I forgot to add this. If he doesn't acknowledge the US Government as even existing...

[kittyKaiti]

The Constitution authorizes the federal government, not the other way around. And despite what the Nevada State Constitution may say, our Founding Fathers surely would side with Bundy and would be horrified to see the condition this country is in.

Bundy's stand is not only about his cows. This is about the overreaching authority the United States federal government is giving itself at the expense of the people. And as long as the United States federal government disregards our Constitutional rights and human freedoms, the authority and the validity of the current standing federal system is easily debatable.

From the Declaration of Independence:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. ... when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security."

[trish]

*1848 The Federal Government acquired the Nevada Territory in the treaty that ended the Mexican-American War. The early settlers were homesteaders. In 1909 the homesteading act was expanded to encourage more people to settle there. Still the Federal Government owns about 80% of the state of Nevada.

*The BLM never euthanized endangered tortoises.

http://mediamatters.org/blog/2014/04/11/the-nevada-tortoise-war-is-a-right-wing-false-f/198860

http://ecowatch.com/2014/04/15/blm-battle-at-bundy-ranch/

*Bundy never owned the grazing land that is in dispute.

"Bundy's dispute with the government began about 1993 when the bureau changed grazing rules for the 600,000-acre Gold Butte area to protect an endangered desert tortoise, KLAS reported."___from http://www.cnn.com/2014/04/10/us/nevada-rancher-rangers-cattle-showdown/

*This dispute is not a State's rights issue, since the land is on a National Park.

*He had his day in court and he had his appeals. His arguments were found wanting in all venues. As you can see, only the loopiest of the loopy see any merit to his incessant whine. Everyone else in the state pays to graze their cattle in the park. Why does Bundy deserve a special subsidy? Why does his cattle get to graze there for absolutely free for two decades? Because he's a pig? Because he brought in and organized some thugs with guns? It's certainly not because he has a legal right, nor a Constitutional right, nor is the state of Nevada claiming any State Rights on his behalf.

[broncofan]

The federal constitution does indeed create the rights of the federal government to act. My understanding is that these are federal government lands he's been using. Federal courts have interpreted it as such. The job of federal courts is to interpret the federal constitution and federal laws. The supremacy clause says that federal law trumps state law where they conflict. He is really no different from any other crazed militia man who claims he doesn't recognize the sovereign within which he lives. That doesn't mean he's not subject to its laws.

Again, it's not you or some jackoff with guns whose interpretation of the constitution matters. If everyone were free to declare acts of government unconstitutional at their whim we wouldn't have much of a government. The federal courts have ruled on the issue and he's lost. And if it turns into a legitimate gunfight, he'll lose that too.

[broncofan]

The fact that there aren't even legal grounds for Bundy's argument shows how far off the reservation conservatives are. Anyone who considers himself an honest and decent conservative should be incensed by what is done in their name. This would be as if the mainstream of the democratic party started advocated eco-terrorism or something that is a fringe left-wing phenomenon. Bunch of nutjobs.

[Turlington]

You can't refer to a constitution of a government you don't even acknowledge.

Also, this.

[robertlouis]

There are parts of America which are beyond parody. Even Jonathan Swift would have shaken his head at this as too outlandish.

[kittyKaiti]

This would be as if the mainstream of the democratic party started advocated eco-terrorism or something that is a fringe left-wing phenomenon. Bunch of nutjobs.

Eco-terrorism... like... sending in an army of Feds to surround a rancher and his family Waco style and threaten to murder him over turtles? And then firing squad his cattle and dumping their bodies into graves in the desert?

"Fringe left-wing phenomenon"

Like when Eric Holder gave thousands of weapons to Mexican drug Cartels in Operation Fast and Furious, resulting in increased border violence?

Or when Obama supplied Syrian Al Qaeda terrorist groups with weaponry to assist in overthrowing Assad?

Or was it when the U.S. wanted to give Ukraine and its rioting nationalist groups weaponry to use against Russia and pro-Russian Ukrainians?

All while the Democrats have desperately used dead children as a soap box for trying to pass weapons bans and increased regulation. Hypocrisy galore.

[kittyKaiti]

You can't refer to a constitution of a government you don't even acknowledge.

Also, this.

And a government cannot be acknowledged when it disregards the Constitution.

[trish]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/wp/2014/04/15/everything-you-need-to-know-about-the-long-fight-between-cliven-bundy-and-the-federal-government/

[broncofan]

Eco-terrorism... like... sending in an army of Feds to surround a rancher and his family Waco style and threaten to murder him over turtles? And then firing squad his cattle and dumping their bodies into graves in the desert?

It's not murder if they are acting pursuant to a court order against him and he or his cohorts use violence. I don't accept your other analogies because they are an attempt to turn this into a collateral discussion about foreign policy. The executive's conduct of foreign policy is non-justiciable.

The only issue at stake in this case is the rule of law. Bundy is subject to it whether he recognizes the sovereign or not. Eco-terrorism would be blowing up a corporation because it pollutes. Compare this to sending federal agents to arrest people or seize property because they violate federal regulations. Federal agents are hired to enforce those regulations and they were only doing their job.

I've heard other right-wing nuts suggest that people should not use guns in defense of property regulations. If he has repeatedly failed to respond to court orders, and to pay fines which have been levied against him, there is no other way to enforce those regulations.

[broncofan]

You can't refer to a constitution of a government you don't even acknowledge.

Actually, the Constitution protects even those who don't understand what it says or recognize our government. The problem is that the Constitution doesn't offer him any support in this case. The federal government has a right under the property clause to make regulations on federal land. Bundy's argument about following Nevada law but not federal law clearly shows his misunderstanding of the nature of dual sovereignty. He has repeatedly said that he doesn't understand whether he is subject to Nevada law or federal law. The answer is both.

[ohiodick]

A long-awaited report on the U.S. government’s controversial gun-trafficking operation known as “Fast and Furious” released Wednesday found no evidence that Attorney General Eric Holder knew of the botched effort to trace the flow of guns to Mexico’s drug cartels prior to its public unraveling in January 2011.
The report by the Justice Department’s Inspector General Michael Horowitz said there is "no evidence that ... Holder was informed about Operation Fast and Furious, or learned about the tactics employed by ATF in the investigation" before Congress began pressing him for information about it in early 2011.
http://investigations.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/09/19/13966068-investigation-finds-no-evidence-ag-eric-holder-knew-of-fast-and-furious-gun-running-sting

The Obama administration, concluding that the troops of President Bashar al-Assad of Syria have used chemical weapons against rebel forces in his country’s civil war, has decided to begin supplying the rebels for the first time with small arms and ammunition, according to American officials. The officials held out the possibility that the assistance, coordinated by the Central Intelligence Agency, could include antitank weapons, but they said that for now supplying the antiaircraft weapons that rebel commanders have said they sorely need is not under consideration. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/14/world/middleeast/syria-chemical-weapons.html?pagewanted=all

At least 132,000 civilians have died from 10 years of war in Iraq and Afghanistan, according to a new study by Brown university. And that’s a conservative estimate.
No one can say with certainty how many civilians have died in these wars. But researchers at Brown’s Watson Institute for International Studies found that between 12,000 and 14,000 of them perished in Afghanistan — the most recent of which came from Tuesday’s audacious insurgent attack on Kabul’s most famous hotel. Another 120,000 died in Iraq. An estimated 35,000 more lost their lives in Pakistan, where the United States is fighting a shadow war against terror groups and militants. (Although the report says it can’t “disaggregate civilian from combatant death” there, which is kind of a big deal.)
http://www.wired.com/2011/06/afghanistan-iraq-wars-killed-132000-civilians-report-says/

[Dino Velvet]

There are parts of America which are beyond parody.

Right you are...

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/35821411.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-mn2f_N1HXSk/URbXDSHPftI/AAAAAAAAmNA/4gkSTQhWip0/s1600/sheep+shagger.jpg

[trish]

Is the U.S. Government engaged in a “land grab” in Nevada? The question is quite definitely asked in the present tense. But in the past the Feds quite certainly grabbed the whole of Nevada and then some, from Mexico. Before that it was grabbed by Mexico from Native Americans.

*The U.S. obtained the territory to which present day Nevada belongs in 1848 when it signed the treaty that ended the Mexican-American war. Ever since the Federal government has been trying to entice people to live there. It still owns 80% of the state of Nevada. It owns and always has owned (since 1848 ) the land on which Cliven Bundy has been grazing his cattle for free. Back in the 19th century free grazing on Federal land was part of the enticement to lure homesteaders. It was an entitlement. Not every rancher in the U.S. gets to graze their cattle for free on Federal lands. But Cliven Bundy did.

*In 1989 the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Services find that the Desert Tortoise, a distinct species found nowhere else in the world, is an endangered species. By 1993 the Federal government instituted a conservation plan to protect the tortoise. The plan includes prohibition of grazing and restriction of off-road vehicles allowed on certain Federal lands, now to be designated as a National Park.

*There goes Cliven Bundy’s free ride. He is understandably upset. This can’t be happening to him. This can’t be about tortoises. It must be what?...A Federal “LAND GRAB.”

*Yeah, right. It’s a Federal “land grab” when the U.S. government takes land it already owns, stops making available to a private business and instead makes it available to all as a National Park.

*Cliven was kinda hoping he could treat that patch of ground as his own into perpetuity. Now he’s pissed because his own piss-poor grazing practices destroyed the natural habitat, endangered a rare species of land tortoise and alerted the Fish and Wildlife Services to the deteriorating condition of the land.

*So this was all over then back in 1993, right? No. Cliven Bundy never stopped grazing his cattle on that land even though it became a National Park! Never stopped! Even though the land doesn’t belong to him and never did, he uses it (illegally), profits from it and continues to degrade the desert ecosystem. In short, Cliven grabbed the land for his own use. He’s been using it illegally for over two decades! He owes us over a million dollars in fines. Our taxes are subsidizing Cliven’s business.

*So finally, after two decades of letting Cliven do whatever the hell he wants with our land, the Federal government gets a court order to impound and sell any cattle grazing within the borders of the Park (unless Cliven removes them within 45 days). This seems to me like a very reasonable course of action, given Cliven’s record. What, should we just write him another ticket that he’ll never pay?

*Of course, Cliven’s "extended" family and some like-minded people protest and obstruct the auction where the cattle are to be sold. Federal officers attempt to disperse the crowd. There are scuffles. A police dog is kicked and the kicker tasered. Some people get scratched and scraped.

*Like flies to rotting meat, Anti-U.S. government loonies with guns are attracted to Cliven’s ranch. Cliven’s land grab escalates into a ponderous storm cloud. It’s what the loonies want. Even if Cliven doesn’t really want a “range war,” gun nuts across the U.S. are salivating at the prospect of another WACO. They can’t say it enough. It’s as if chanting will make it happen again “WACO”, “WACO”, “WACO”.

*But its the last thing the BLM wants. They back off. They decide not to enforce the court order. Cliven Bundy’s land grab is a temporary success. The cry goes up through all of loonyland, "Hooray for loonies with guns."

[Turlington]

Cliven Bundy a fraud? Who would have ever guessed that in a million years.

http://crooksandliars.com/2014/04/bundys-ancestral-rights-story-load-crap

via KLAS

His cattle, until recently, roamed freely on land managed by the federal Bureau of Land Management. Before the roundup that sparked protests, confrontations and gunmen taking a bridge, Bundy explained his "ancestral rights" to the I-Team.

"I've lived my lifetime here. My forefathers have been up and down the Virgin Valley here ever since 1877. All these rights that I claim, have been created through pre-emptive rights and beneficial use of the forage and the water and the access and range improvements," Bundy said.

Clark County property records show Cliven Bundy's parents moved from Bundyville, Arizona and bought the 160 acre ranch in 1948 from Raoul and Ruth Leavitt.

Water rights were transferred too, but only to the ranch, not the federally managed land surrounding it. Court records show Bundy family cattle didn't start grazing on that land until 1954.

The Bureau of Land Management was created 1946, the same year Cliven was born.

Saw this on Tumblr: "I see Republicans are out lauding a wealthy tax cheat as 'a real patriot' while out the other side of their mouth labeling the working poor who pay a forth of their income in taxes as 'takers' not deserving of a living wage or health coverage."

[kittyKaiti]

Saw this on Tumblr: "I see Republicans are out lauding a wealthy tax cheat as 'a real patriot' while out the other side of their mouth labeling the working poor who pay a forth of their income in taxes as 'takers' not deserving of a living wage or health coverage."

"Wealthy tax cheat."

[kittyKaiti]

Is the U.S. Government engaged in a “land grab” in Nevada? The question is quite definitely asked in the present tense. But in the past the Feds quite certainly grabbed the whole of Nevada and then some, from Mexico. Before that it was grabbed by Mexico from Native Americans.

*The U.S. obtained the territory to which present day Nevada belongs in 1848 when it signed the treaty that ended the Mexican-American war. Ever since the Federal government has been trying to entice people to live there. It still owns 80% of the state of Nevada. It owns and always has owned (since 1848 ) the land on which Cliven Bundy has been grazing his cattle for free. Back in the 19th century free grazing on Federal land was part of the enticement to lure homesteaders. It was an entitlement. Not every rancher in the U.S. gets to graze their cattle for free on Federal lands. But Cliven Bundy did.

*In 1989 the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Services find that the Desert Tortoise, a distinct species found nowhere else in the world, is an endangered species. By 1993 the Federal government instituted a conservation plan to protect the tortoise. The plan includes prohibition of grazing and restriction of off-road vehicles allowed on certain Federal lands, now to be designated as a National Park.

*There goes Cliven Bundy’s free ride. He is understandably upset. This can’t be happening to him. This can’t be about tortoises. It must be what?...A Federal “LAND GRAB.”

*Yeah, right. It’s a Federal “land grab” when the U.S. government takes land it already owns, stops making available to a private business and instead makes it available to all as a National Park.

*Cliven was kinda hoping he could treat that patch of ground as his own into perpetuity. Now he’s pissed because his own piss-poor grazing practices destroyed the natural habitat, endangered a rare species of land tortoise and alerted the Fish and Wildlife Services to the deteriorating condition of the land.

*So this was all over then back in 1993, right? No. Cliven Bundy never stopped grazing his cattle on that land even though it became a National Park! Never stopped! Even though the land doesn’t belong to him and never did, he uses it (illegally), profits from it and continues to degrade the desert ecosystem. In short, Cliven grabbed the land for his own use. He’s been using it illegally for over two decades! He owes us over a million dollars in fines. Our taxes are subsidizing Cliven’s business.

*So finally, after two decades of letting Cliven do whatever the hell he wants with our land, the Federal government gets a court order to impound and sell any cattle grazing within the borders of the Park (unless Cliven removes them within 45 days). This seems to me like a very reasonable course of action, given Cliven’s record. What, should we just write him another ticket that he’ll never pay?

*Of course, Cliven’s "extended" family and some like-minded people protest and obstruct the auction where the cattle are to be sold. Federal officers attempt to disperse the crowd. There are scuffles. A police dog is kicked and the kicker tasered. Some people get scratched and scraped.

*Like flies to rotting meat, Anti-U.S. government loonies with guns are attracted to Cliven’s ranch. Cliven’s land grab escalates into a ponderous storm cloud. It’s what the loonies want. Even if Cliven doesn’t really want a “range war,” gun nuts across the U.S. are salivating at the prospect of another WACO. They can’t say it enough. It’s as if chanting will make it happen again “WACO”, “WACO”, “WACO”.

*But its the last thing the BLM wants. They back off. They decide not to enforce the court order. Cliven Bundy’s land grab is a temporary success. The cry goes up through all of loonyland, "Hooray for loonies with guns."

The liberal butthurt tears are overflowing in this post. Such disinfo. Such lib tears.

The bold and underlined part is a blatant lie. Stop watching MSNBC.

[broncofan]

I've read in the right wing blogosphere that Warren Buffett or at least one of dozens of subsidiaries of Berkshire Hathaway, a holding company, had a disputed tax bill. Has Warren Buffett ever violated an order by a federal court for him to pay income taxes? I'm asking because I don't know. I do know that he's pledged 99% of his considerable wealth to charity.

Contrast this with someone who has grazed cattle on federal land without a permit for two decades. Who claims he doesn't recognize the federal government. Who threatens violence against federal agents who are only doing their job. There is simply no comparison between this piece of trash, whose home state has been visited by militia men who have spent their entire lives sowing intolerance, and a decent person like Warren Buffett.

I suppose you've given up on the argument that Cliven Bundy's actions were legal or that the federal government doesn't have the ability to create regulations on federal land?

[trish]

The liberal butthurt tears are overflowing in this post. Such disinfo. Such lib tears.Gee, I didn't think the tone was at all tearful.


The bold and underlined part is a blatant lie. Stop watching MSNBC.Of course you know this is not a rebuttal.

[fred41]

G
Of course you know this is not a rebuttal.

There is no rebuttal...the only rebuttals you wind up getting is -

Cliven Bundy should do whatever he wants because -

we attacked Iraq

we armed people in Syria

people cheat on taxes

(we secretly bombed our own towers....I know, I know - no one said it ...but you know it's hanging in the air...lol)


Oh, and we know the goverment lies...I will concede that. However to think Cliven Bundy can't possibly be lying (he's wearing a white hat after all) is silly.

...Oh, and the militia are heroes...(never heard of heroes suggesting fighting behind a line of women before,..but whatever).

[trish]

never heard of heroes suggesting fighting behind a line of women before,..but whateverClearly you're not Hamas.

[fred41]

Clearly you're not Hamas.

Clearly..lol. (it's hard to make a green headband and vest bomb work with my weekend wear)...

...but I hear they may come to Nevada to help Bundy because the desert turtle is a filthy, belly crawling agent of Israel.

[fred41]

...but I hear they may come to Nevada to help Bundy because the desert turtle is a filthy, belly crawling agent of Israel.


though I would suggest that , based on this live photo taken by Alex Jones,...the turtles look a lot like Hamas.

[martin48]

I DO love US political debates - so well thought through. You should congratulate yourselves on such an amazing group of total political loonies - who still think they are driving their covered-wagons across the plains and killing off the natives.

The best we can do in Britain is this guy.

[buttslinger]

This is another non-issue that conservative radio has inflated so it's incensed listeners will stay listening an extra 5 minutes and maybe hear that ad for the aluminum siding that they need. Harry Reid should drag this out through the entire summer, saying it's nothing, but it ain't over. Let Republican Senatorial candidates talk about Cliven Bundy and Joe the Plumber. Let Reporters scream questions on how they feel about Cliven Bundy for the six o'clock news.

[Prospero]

Great guy this Bundy.

....RANCHER CLIVEN BUNDY, darling of FOX News, Limbaugh, Rand Paul, Ted Cruz, et al, exposes himself for what he really is: a pro-slavery madman! And he has the nerve to criticize government subsidies! Now watch his high-placed fans squirm. Choice quote from today's NY Times:
“They abort their young children, they put their young men in jail, because they never learned how to pick cotton. And I’ve often wondered, are they better off as slaves, picking cotton and having a family life and doing things, or are they better off under government subsidy? They didn’t get no more freedom. They got less freedom.”

[Prospero]

read the whole article with that quote and other choice stuff on this great hero....


http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/24/us/politics/rancher-proudly-breaks-the-law-becoming-a-hero-in-the-west.html?hp

[trish]

read the whole article with that quote and other choice stuff on this great hero....


http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/24/us/politics/rancher-proudly-breaks-the-law-becoming-a-hero-in-the-west.html?hp

Cliven is the gift that keeps on given.

[broncofan]

http://mediamatters.org/video/2014/04/22/watch-the-daily-show-demolish-hannitys-hypocrit/198963

I didn't know Cliven Bundy had made pro-slavery comments! Just highlights what a nut he is. Shouldn't be a surprise when you see the madmen he's attracted.

Hannity and Jon Stewart are going back and forth. The video above came out Monday...Hannity responded Tuesday, and then Stewart responded again last night. I'll see if I can post the other two since it's an amusing back and forth.

[broncofan]

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/jon-stewart-fires-back-at-hannitys-word-turds-my-god-youre-the-arbys-of-news/

Okay so basically Hannity responded that Stewart misunderstood his argument. That he didn't think what Bundy was doing was legal but that the federal government hadn't acted proportionally. So this was the response last night. I thought it was quite funny.

Edit: So now Rand Paul and Senator Heller have responded to the slavery comments reported in the above NY times article. They denounce them in the most strenuous way! Has Rand Paul commented on the racist comments Ron Paul put in his newsletter years ago?

What a fucking shocker that a man who tried to engage federal agents in a gunfight, who doesn't recognize the government as existing, and who attracted a bunch of militia nutjobs setting up shop as snipers on public highways has ended up being pro-slavery. Nobody could have seen that coming!

[kittyKaiti]

Bundy may be an old fart, with opinions commonly held by people his age from the 1950's, but this does not detract from the issue at hand.

The United States federal government uses outrageous excessive force to accomplish its goals, whoever the target of it may be. The Feds are historically known for using brutal violence and acts of terror to deal with situations that did not need such levels of force, if the situation at hand was even valid at all to begin with.

In the case of Cliven Bundy and his ranch, the issue is less about the seizure of his property and the land issue, as it is more about the level of force used by the federal agents on scene. This entire incident between Bundy and the BLM would have been a non-existent issue, and no fucks would have been given, had the federal government not used the force they chose. The moment the BLM positioned hilltop snipers, sighting on the Bundy family home, and 200 federal agents armed with M4 carbines, they made this no longer a bullshit issue over cows eating grass, and made it a Ruby Ridge 2.0 bloodbath in the making. The only reason militias and protesters responded at all to this was because the Bundy family released photos and videos of federal agents aiming sniper rifles at their house. We all saw it for what it was. The feds were at it again, using overdone excessive force when it could have conducted a simplistic dozen officer raid and arrest on his home.

While there may be multiple other questionable issues, like why the federal government claims authority over 80% of the lands in the western U.S., disregards state sovereignty clauses of the Bill of Rights, the questionable nature of desert tortoises being threatened by cows eating grass, among others, the issue was the feds were acting like this was a raid on the bin Laden compound and not that of a 70 something year old rancher and his children and grandchildren.

At this point, the Bundy Ranch issue is blown way out of proportion. And the mainstream media is only reporting on the Bundy Ranch issue now because of the juicy news that the evil terrorist grandpa is a racist and the government should take him down.

The conduct of the BLM and the federal agents and rangers on the scene was mishandled, excessive, poorly planned, and an embarrassment for the bureaucratic federal agency having to retreat because they fucked up a simple situation and attracted the attention of people who don't agree with authorities sending in an army to deal with non-issues. However, this Bundy Ranch situation ended over a week ago. It's over and done. I don't support the racist remarks or any form of discrimination. My interests in the situation revolved around the force the government sought to use against a ranching family over cows eating grass.

So, enjoy the media race card baiting bullshit. Liberal tears tsunami watch is in effect.

[broncofan]

A long post that is mostly untrue. The issue was reported before Cliven Bundy let the world know he's a racist. He doesn't have 1950's views but 1850's views.

Second, the federal government's use of force was reasonable given the nature of the threats. He failed to respond to four court orders demanding payments for fees he was delinquent in honoring. The government had an injunction against his use of federal lands (which was an ongoing violation), and this gives them the right to use force to prevent him from continuing to graze his cattle illegally. When threatened with the prospect of having his cattle seized, Bundy called on militia men and threatened to take up arms. This is the natural consequence of taking up arms against the U.S government.

Finally, federal government land ownership is not contradicted by the bill of rights. You must be talking about the reserve power in the 10th amendment. There is nothing about the federal government's ownership of large tracts of land that threatens state sovereignty. Our Constitution was set up to make allowance for dual sovereignty, which is why we have enumerated federal powers, the supremacy clause, and the 10th amendment leaving those powers not vested in the federal government to the states and the people respectively. As I've already stated, the property clause assumes that the government owns land, and with the exception of the district of columbia and indian lands, where else would this land be but within states?

[kittyKaiti]

A long post that is mostly untrue. The issue was reported before Cliven Bundy let the world know he's a racist. He doesn't have 1950's views but 1850's views.

Second, the federal government's use of force was reasonable given the nature of the threats. He failed to respond to four court orders demanding payments for fees he was delinquent in honoring. The government had an injunction against his use of federal lands (which was an ongoing violation), and this gives them the right to use force to prevent him from continuing to graze his cattle illegally. When threatened with the prospect of having his cattle seized, Bundy called on militia men and threatened to take up arms. This is the natural consequence of taking up arms against the U.S government.

The issue was barely touched until long after militias started joining the cause. Until then it was all over alternative media and social media.

The use of force was NOT reasonable. The guy is a 70 something year old man. Snipers, hundreds of feds armed with combat rifles and helicopters were NOT necessary. Bundy called for help from protesters and patriots after he released photos of snipers aiming at him and his home, filled with his family and grandchildren. The guy was little to no threat at all. The use of force and intimidation by the BLM and rangers was beyond excessive. Because of that, and only that, did militia groups respond. It was like Waco and Ruby Ridge all over again. A family surrounded by hundreds of heavily armed federal agents.

Enough of your lies and disinfo. There was no justifiable threat to warrant that level of force.

[broncofan]

I'm sorry you're so naive that you just realized that when a person flouts court orders over a twenty year period of time and there is a 16 year old permanent injunction against his use of federal land, that they might be confronted by armed federal agents. They had a right to seize his cattle. In fact if anything is embarrassing it's that the federal government ended up backing down because they did not want to use enough force to prevent continued violations.

He may be a 70 year old man, but you put a gun in his hands and he's as dangerous as any other person with a gun who doesn't respect laws and violates court orders. It's amazing to me that anyone would expect the federal government to continue to allow violations of federal regulations. Or to allow someone to ignore a permanent injunction against land use and continue to use the land illegally. Eventually force needs to be used.

It's too bad that your heroes showed what they're all about.

[kittyKaiti]

I'm sorry you're so naive that you just realized that when a person flouts court orders over a twenty year period of time and there is a 16 year old permanent injunction against his use of federal land, that they might be confronted by armed federal agents. They had a right to seize his cattle. In fact if anything is embarrassing it's that the federal government ended up backing down because they did not want to use enough force to prevent continued violations.

He may be a 70 year old man, but you put a gun in his hands and he's as dangerous as any other person with a gun who doesn't respect laws and violates court orders. It's amazing to me that anyone would expect the federal government to continue to allow violations of federal regulations. Or to allow someone to ignore a permanent injunction against land use and continue to use the land illegally. Eventually force needs to be used.

It's too bad that your heroes showed what they're all about.

Once again, you are ignoring the facts of the situation. They have sent in less force on multiple potentially armed people for worse offenses. It was a gross display of government use of violent force in a minor issue. They could have sent in a dozen officers to knock on his door, conduct a typical warranted raid, like any other situation and arrested him.

Instead they put snipers all around his property and sent in 200 feds with combat rifles. This was a nothing issue that could have been dealt with in a simple, easy and undramatic manner.

Now you try to blame the militia and Oath Keepers groups for being "domestic terrorists" and condemn their reaction to an army of feds threatening overwhelming violent force against a senior citizen.

[broncofan]

I am not sure whether violating federal land use regulations are incarcerable offenses so arresting him doesn't achieve the purpose of the injunction as well as seizing his cattle does. When the courts held that he was violating the regulations they ordered him to pay for past violations. But an injunction is forward looking. It doesn't punish him for past actions but says, "what we've already punished you for doing needs to stop."

What kind of government would we have if it couldn't even enforce an injunction? A completely toothless government. This may surprise you but law enforcement officers carry guns. When they enforce laws they also have those guns with them. You say there were a lot of officers and a lot of guns? Well, the man is still alive, and still ignorant. I don't know why officers of the law have to deal with a continuing series of violations with kid gloves. Anyhow, it doesn't matter. Nobody in his family was shot however many guns were present. His legal arguments had no basis. And the government had a right to seize his cattle.

[kittyKaiti]

I am not sure whether violating federal land use regulations are incarcerable offenses so arresting him doesn't achieve the purpose of the injunction as well as seizing his cattle does. When the courts held that he was violating the regulations they ordered him to pay for past violations. But an injunction is forward looking. It doesn't punish him for past actions but says, "what we've already punished you for doing needs to stop."

What kind of government would we have if it couldn't even enforce an injunction? A completely toothless government. This may surprise you but law enforcement officers carry guns. When they enforce laws they also have those guns with them. You say there were a lot of officers and a lot of guns? Well, the man is still alive, and still ignorant. I don't know why officers of the law have to deal with a continuing series of violations with kid gloves. Anyhow, it doesn't matter. Nobody in his family was shot however many guns were present. His legal arguments had no basis. And the government had a right to seize his cattle.

Don't try to be a condescending dick.

[kittyKaiti]

Also this:

New York Times Gets Blown The Fuck Out; Caught Falsifying and Editing Footage

American mainstream media is at it again. Editing footage and displaying to the world in a manner to make statements appear biased to support the federal government agenda.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agXns-W60MI

The real video of Cliven Bundy discussing federal government bureaucracy and its effects on hardworking Americans. (Including the section about African Americans) And the cut off ending about hardworking Mexican immigrants.

[broncofan]

Don't try to be a condescending dick.
I'm not trying to be. The use of sarcasm wasn't to insult you. I am just saying I don't think it's unexpected. You say the militia men only came after the government started using force. Well you have to admit that militia men might be the types to jump the gun and assume the government is using unjustified force when it's not.

The government was taking an aggressive posture to enforce its laws because that's what they have to do or nobody would follow laws.It's very self-fulfilling all of it. Militia men don't recognize the legitimacy of the government. But the government takes the position that it is legitimate. And when they use force to enforce their laws, they are acting within power that has been vested in them. If people show up with guns to oppose lawful government action of course it escalates the situation. The only way to de-escalate it would be for Cliven Bundy to conform his conduct to the law.

[kittyKaiti]

Cliven Bundy responds to NY Times' allegations of racism. Stands beside black community, mentions notable black militaman still at his house providing defense and security.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCJ59tls0vc

[trish]

Breaking News: Racist Claims He Isn't Racist. Other Racists Agree!

[kittyKaiti]

Breaking News: Racist Claims He Isn't Racist. Other Racists Agree!


Yes. So racist, that he stands arm in arm with the black folks defending his family! Please, try again.

[broncofan]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/2006/08/04/mel-gibson-has-israeli-bodyguard/

[kittyKaiti]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/2006/08/04/mel-gibson-has-israeli-bodyguard/

Herp derp, we're gonna derail the facts with Hollywood bullshit about Mel Gibson and Jews.

Either watch the full videos of Cliven Bundy's "racist" speech and his interview responding to the NY Times and CNN's chopped up, edited and fabricated versions of that video or stop posting nonsense.

[broncofan]

Herp derp, we're gonna derail the facts with Hollywood bullshit about Mel Gibson and Jews.

Either watch the full videos of Cliven Bundy's "racist" speech and his interview responding to the NY Times and CNN's chopped up, edited and fabricated versions of that video or stop posting nonsense.
It's actually an analogy, unlike the distractions you posted several pages ago. If having a friend or trusted confidante of a particular background means someone isn't a bigot then Mel Gibson is a friend of the Jews.

Cliven Bundy is a friend of the African-American community because he hugged a black man. So he could not be racist, despite the fact that he said African-Americans were better off as slaves.

[broncofan]

I watched the video you posted of full controversial remarks. I haven't changed my view of his comments or prior actions.

[kittyKaiti]

It's actually an analogy, unlike the distractions you posted several pages ago. If having a friend or trusted confidante of a particular background means someone isn't a bigot then Mel Gibson is a friend of the Jews.

Cliven Bundy is a friend of the African-American community because he hugged a black man. So he could not be racist, despite the fact that he said African-Americans were better off as slaves.

Actually, that wasn't even what he said. That is the NY Times edited version of his statements. He also clarified what he was trying to say during the interview with Alex Jones. But go ahead and keep believing everything the news tells you.

[broncofan]

To prove I watched your video, I'm going to re-post it. Now watch and listen to what he says between 1:30 and 2:00 minutes in. He asks are African-Americans better off on government subsidies than they were as slaves picking cotton. It's right there in the video. Start earlier if you want the full context. It does nothing to mitigate what he said.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agXns-W60MI

[kittyKaiti]

To prove I watched your video, I'm going to re-post it. Now watch and listen to what he says between 1:30 and 2:00 minutes in. He asks are African-Americans better off on government subsidies than they were as slaves picking cotton. It's right there in the video. Start earlier if you want the full context. It does nothing to mitigate what he said.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agXns-W60MI

Well, it's on you to ignore FBI crime and CDC poverty statistics on the average African American in the United States. That is what he is referring to. At no point does he say blacks should be slaves. He is questioning the current cultural situation that is statistically shown in every government and science report and journal regarding blacks in the United States. You also need to watch the second video, where Cliven discusses what he was trying to convey.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCJ59tls0vc

[trish]

He only wonders to himself whether negros would be better off as slaves. He's not racist, he got a negro friend. This is so cliche it could be a joke. Oh wait. It is.

[robertlouis]

There has to be something wrong when a cranky gobshite like him can become a hero.

[trish]

Cliven's not a hero. He's an excuse. He's an excuse for looney, white supremacist, anti-U.S. government, slimballs to get out their guns, wave them around and ejaculate a few rounds of stupidity, ignorance and hatred. They're such magnificent specimens of masculinity, don't you think?

[Prospero]

Truly scarey - a racist thief like Bundy gets to be a hero and attracts scores of armed nutcases prepared to kill because of their visceral hatred of the US Government.

Parts of your country long since went insane,

A good and funny take on it from The Daily Show.

Jon Stewart Tears into Sean Hannity for Cliven Bundy Hypocrisy: 'Who Is on This Guy's Side?' - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1SUt7Y7FSA)

[kittyKaiti]

Cliven's not a hero. He's an excuse. He's an excuse for looney, white supremacist, anti-U.S. government, slimballs to get out their guns, wave them around and ejaculate a few rounds of stupidity, ignorance and hatred. They're such magnificent specimens of masculinity, don't you think?

You're implying the protesters and militia are Nazis, Klansmen and psychopaths. There is nothing more biased and ignorant going on than what you just spouted in your half-assed MSNBC style rhetoric. At no point have I seen any Nazi flags flying at Bundy Ranch. At no point does anyone scream Heil Hitler. And surely, you would be a total idiot to say they are all white supremacists. Your throwing around of race cards is typical of mainstream media to detract from the real issue. The moment you are getting wrecked in a debate, screaming out "RACISM" is your last resort. This has nothing to do with race. This has to do with 200 heavily armed federal agents pointing military combat weapons at a rural family, including children and women to enforce a bureaucratic bullshit grass eating law.


Truly scarey - a racist thief like Bundy gets to be a hero and attracts scores of armed nutcases prepared to kill because of their visceral hatred of the US Government.


We have guns because of you British tyrants. It isn't surprising that you guys across the ocean still rant and rave against American Constitutional freedoms and its exercise by law abiding citizens. Please, take Piers Morgan back, keep your Monarchy and enjoy your lack of sovereign human rights. Your cesspool of ultraliberalist dystopia should stay on your continent.

We Americans prefer to speak our mind freely, tell our corrupt government to suck our dicks whenever we want without fear of retaliation and defend our lives from violent police aggression. Essentially those are the First and Second Amendments in a gist. Something you don't have.

They were prepared to kill. Of course they were. That's what makes them patriots and heroes. They were the first line of defense if the BLM was to fire off a round. They were there to keep that family safe from a brutal Waco style massacre. That is exactly why nothing did happen, and exactly why the Feds backed down. The militia did their jobs professionally and effectively without a shot fired. Their presence warded off a tyrannical and disgusting display of excessive force against a 70 year old man and his family. If they were nutcases, blood would have been shed. These patriots were well organized and did a damn good job.

Old and young, black and white, they stand for justice and security. This is a photo of American freedom. When the government comes to kill you for feeding your cows grass, I'm damn proud knowing people are willing to lay down their lives for their fellow Americans in defense.

[Turlington]

http://www.cnn.com/video/standard.html?/video/politics/2014/04/25/cnn-tonight-intv-bundy-fox-news.cnn&video_referrer=http%3A%2F%2Fmediamattersforamerica .tumblr.com%2F

[kittyKaiti]

http://www.cnn.com/video/standard.html?/video/politics/2014/04/25/cnn-tonight-intv-bundy-fox-news.cnn&video_referrer=http%3A%2F%2Fmediamattersforamerica .tumblr.com%2F

Actually posting a CNN interview with Bundy after they sliced and diced the alleged "racist rant" clip to make him look like a racist to begin with despite evidence to the contrary in the original video? You're a little late to the party.

[Turlington]

VIDEO: Cliven Bundy's Racist Remarks - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbnRnhrNFEY)

[Prospero]

Interesting. The deepening divide in the US between the "grassroots' and the "liberal establishment' with the former here represented with great anger by our TS ladyfriend from New York. There is obviously a deep wellspring of hatred for Washington among many ordinary people. But perhaps the Tea Party and their ilk are looking at the wrong enemy. Perhaps they should be looking at big business instead - people like the Koch brothers - who fund he radical right to mobilise them against any limits on the greed and bad behaviour of the capitalists in the US (and the same picture is true in the wider world0. They tap into prejudice, like that nakedly revealed by this absurd and ignorant Bundy character, and the fear of some ordinary people, to turn their ire against the government - especially a government run by the Democrats. The notion of aspiring to achieve a more equal, air and just society is being turned on its head by the clever machinations of those with huge budgets to spend to pervert democracy and stir up grassroots hatred. Sinister times.

[kittyKaiti]

VIDEO: Cliven Bundy's Racist Remarks - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbnRnhrNFEY)

Yea... no. That is a chopped up, fabricated version of the full video.

Here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agXns-W60MI

Breaking News: Cliven Bundy's black militia body guard speaks out against claims of racism. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vu_YKgGRFZ8 and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PdBBdCRWq8 (skip to 2:20 for the interview)

[Prospero]

Get real Kitty and confront the real enemy... the religious right and their funders. And please don't parade your profound ignorance about the UK again. It diminishes your own case.

[kittyKaiti]

Interesting. The deepening divide in the US between the "grassroots' and the "liberal establishment' with the former here represented with great anger by our TS ladyfriend from New York. There is obviously a deep wellspring of hatred for Washington among many ordinary people. But perhaps the Tea Party and their ilk are looking at the wrong enemy. Perhaps they should be looking at big business instead - people like the Koch brothers - who fund he radical right to mobilise them against any limits on the greed and bad behaviour of the capitalists in the US (and the same picture is true in the wider world0. They tap into prejudice, like that nakedly revealed by this absurd and ignorant Bundy character, and the fear of some ordinary people, to turn their ire against the government - especially a government run by the Democrats. The notion of aspiring to achieve a more equal, air and just society is being turned on its head by the clever machinations of those with huge budgets to spend to pervert democracy and stir up grassroots hatred. Sinister times.

The hatred is valid and is vented towards a multitude of those to blame. It is not just lobbyists themselves like the Koch Brothers. It is also corrupt politicians and judges who accept bribes and private backroom deals with corporate entities to vote on bills in their favor. It is scum like Senator Harry Reid and Senator Dianne Feinstein who conspire with corporations to introduce or vote for or against legislation to promote the agendas of corporations in exchange for shares in stock or financial support. Our government is flooded with corrupt and self-serving politicians who no longer represent the People who elected them. They serve only those who bid the highest price and won. Our economy is ruled by CEO banking industry bureaucrats in the Federal Reserve, who have brought our nation to ruin and conspirators like Dick Cheney and Halliburton have sent our sons and daughters to die in senseless wars based on lies to make a profit on defense technology and oil. Now these same tyrannical liars and deceivers have declared a state of war with the American populous. They spy on our communications without warrant. They promote propaganda and lies through the media, which is owed by the same scum who bought off the elections. They are trying to disarm us, standing on the graves of dead children and screaming weapons of war do not belong on our streets, while funding foreign terrorist groups to overthrow enemy governments. And then they subsidize thousands of used Iraq War MRAP tanks to local police departments and increase the power, authority and overreach of the Department of Homeland Security to protect the country from the new threat of "domestic terrorists". Drones over our own skies, police driving mine resistant tanks and everyday officers with combat rifles, yet we claim everything is okay. No, it's not the government that is breaking the law. It is not the government that is being excessive and surely is not being violent. It's the hardworking Americans like Cliven Bundy being made out to be terrorists and racists despite facts. Pay those fees citizen or we'll come and murder your family.

George Washington would have declared war over ten years ago if he was here today. George Orwell would be shitting himself. And Adolf Hitler would be busting in his pants if he had what the U.S. has today to control the population.

This is the future you all chose. And sadly, you all support and condone.

[kittyKaiti]

Get real Kitty and confront the real enemy... the religious right and their funders. And please don't parade your profound ignorance about the UK again. It diminishes your own case.

You shouldn't make ignorant statements about American gun owners either. "Armed nutcases". It makes you look just as bad... well, only to intelligent people.

The religious right and their funders are not the only problem. Do you really believe that the far left and their funders are any better than the radical religious groups? Most people seem to only view the world in red and blue. The liberals versus the conservatives. Democrats versus Republicans. One is better than the other, blah blah blah. You all forget that both sides are liars, cheats, corrupt and do not have any interest in actually fixing anything. They both scream at each other over the little things to distract the voters with BS like abortion, guns and gay rights, while they all agree to devastate the economy and cheat the American public.

[Turlington]

Cliven Bundy Accidentally Explained What’s Wrong With the Republican Party (http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/25/upshot/cliven-bundy-accidentally-explained-whats-wrong-with-the-republican-party.html?_r=0)

On Saturday, Cliven Bundy, the Nevada rancher who has risen to prominence because of his dispute with the Bureau of Land Management, held forth about “the Negro,” and how black people may have been better off under slavery than in President Obama’s America.

When I read Adam Nagourney’s piece in The New York Times about the remarks, my first thought was: How did Mr. Bundy even get on this topic? It turns out, Mr. Bundy’s mind ran to the condition of black Americans because the activists who have flocked to his ranch to defend his right not to pay grazing fees are almost all white.

The Washington Post obtained video of his remarks (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-politics/wp/2014/04/24/prior-to-slavery-comments-bundy-said-minority-groups-are-against-us/) and it quotes him: “Where is our colored brother? Where is our Mexican brother? Where is our Chinese? Where are they? They’re just as much American as we are, and they’re not with us. If they’re not with us, they’re going to be against us.”

Mr. Bundy, weirdly, is onto something here. The rush to stand with Mr. Bundy against the Bureau of Land Management is the latest incarnation of conservative antigovernment messaging. And nonwhites are not interested, because a gut-level aversion to the government is almost exclusively a white phenomenon.

A 2011 National Journal poll found that 42 percent of white respondents agreed with the statement, “Government is not the solution to our problems; government is the problem.” Just 17 percent of blacks, 16 percent of Asians and 25 percent of Hispanics agreed. In 2011 and 2012, the Pew Research Center found that 55 percent of Asian-Americans and fully 75 percent of Hispanic-Americans say they prefer a bigger government providing more services over a smaller one providing fewer services, compared with just 41 percent of the general population.

Conservatives often talk about Republican underperformance with minorities in economic terms: Minority voters with lower incomes tend to see themselves as benefiting from government programs. Or they blame the underperformance on loose-cannon Republican politicians who make offensive statements, as with Representative Don Young, of Alaska, talking about “wetbacks” or Representative Steve King, of Iowa, warning that the Dream Act would give citizenship to drug smugglers with “calves the sizes of cantaloupes.

Those problems are real, but Republicans’ biggest problem with minorities runs even deeper than economic disparities and racist gaffes. Asian-American voters broke nearly 3-to-1 against Mitt Romney in 2012, even though they have higher median family incomes and higher average educational attainment than whites. Economic prosperity alone will not make racial minorities eager for antigovernment language.

In 2012, when I attended the Republican National Convention, there was one phrase I heard over and over again: “You built it!” Republicans thought this was a clever rejoinder to President Obama’s comments that people should be thankful for the role that government plays in individual success. The comeback was not the blockbuster Republicans thought it would be, because America is not the overwhelmingly white country it once was.

Cliven Bundy gets that. Will Republicans?

[Prospero]

Phew... the world and its wife are all in one big conspiracy - and only the militias know the answers. Obama is worst than Hitler by Kitti's reckoning. And of course those nice folk with their guns would welcome a transsexual like Kitty into their ranks, wouldn't they. They'd shoot or lynch her actually...

[kittyKaiti]

Phew... the world and its wife are all in one big conspiracy - and only the militias know the answers. Obama is worst than Hitler by Kitti's reckoning. And of course those nice folk with their guns would welcome a transsexual like Kitty into their ranks, wouldn't they. They'd shoot or lynch her actually...

Because all gun owners are KKK murderers who seek to hang trannies. Stop being a complete dipshit.

I never said Obama was worse than Hitler. Nice try at twisting my comments and adding a crap ton of other words into it. In fact, I never even mentioned Obama.

It is disgusting and unbelievable in this day and age we have morons like you and half the other users in this thread making the absurd, offensive and reverse-racist comments and lies here. Based on every post I've seen from you people, the common view of American gun owners and white people is:

*All whites are racist
*All gun owners are inbred retards and terrorists
*All gun owners are Nazis and murderers
*Anyone who doesn't agree with the federal government is a nutcase conspiracy theorist and a terrorist
*All conservatives are racist Nazis who would kill people
*Condemning government violence is wrong
*Disagreeing with the government is insane

I'm happy at least the majority of your fools live in Britardistan and not here.

[trish]

You're implying the protesters and militia are Nazis, Klansmen and psychopaths. No you are. I said, “Cliven's not a hero. He's an excuse. He's an excuse for looney, white supremacist, anti-U.S. government, slim[e]balls to get out their guns, wave them around and ejaculate a few rounds of stupidity, ignorance and hatred. They're such magnificent specimens of masculinity, don't you think?”


At no point have I seen any Nazi flags flying at Bundy Ranch. At no point does anyone scream Heil Hitler. And at no point did I say Cliven and his white supremacist friends Nazis.


And surely, you would be a total idiot to say they are all white supremacists. I’m sure you can find at least one or two who would deny it.


Your throwing around of race cards is typical of mainstream media to detract from the real issue. Oh, now I’m the mainstream media? Thanks for the promotion.


The moment you are getting wrecked in a debate, screaming out "RACISM" is your last resort. This has nothing to do with race. This has to do with 200 heavily armed federal agents pointing military combat weapons at a rural family, including children and women to enforce a bureaucratic bullshit grass eating law. Originally it was about the Federal government attempting to protect an endangered species (just stating the facts, Ma'am...I personally don’t give a shit about tortoises) by re-allocating use of its own land...not Cliven Bundy’s land. Then it was about Cliven illegally grazing his cattle for free on that land. Then it was about the BLM impounding his cattle. Then it was about the white supremacist gun loonies around the nation screaming WACO WACO WACO. Situations evolve. Now it’s about racism. Hey, I didn’t pull the race card (I’m all out of them). Neither did the media. It was the town idiot who brought up the issue of race. It was Cliven Bundy himself who brought it up in his daily radio hour. And his posse comitatus crowd cheered.

[trish]

Kaiti's right, Cliven didn’t literally say, “I believe African-Americans would be better off if they were slaves.” He merely wonders whether they might be better off as slaves, like their happy ancestors were. You know with their families and such, and having something to do...like pickin’ cotton. Never mind that you have to be a moron to believe that a people would be better off under slavery. Never mind that you can’t really call yourself a freedom-lover and at the same time question whether or not slavery might actually be good for some people. Never mind the extent of Cliven’s ignorance as to what slavery in the south was like. In spite of all that, one has to concede that on this particular occasion Cliven didn’t literally endorse slavery. He only wondered about it.

Cliven, however, did literally aver that the negro today has abortions because they (the negro) never learned to pick cotton. But I’m sure Cliven didn’t mean that literally. Substitute “sweep floors” or “shovel shit” for “pick cotton” and I’m sure Cliven would be fine with it.

Cliven did say that he doesn’t recognize the U.S. government. He said that it doesn’t exist. Literally. But then again, I’m sure he didn’t mean it literally. After all, he rides around on horseback in front of a camera carrying a huge American flag. And he does seem to put a lot of stock in the green stuff the U.S. government mints. And his welfare cows seem to love the green stuff that grows on Federally owned lands. You can’t put too much stock in what Cliven literally says, because...you know...he’s a simple man...and he ain’t too good with words.

So when Cliven says, “...I’ve often wondered, are they better off as slaves, picking cotton and having a family life and doing things...”, I know you can’t put a lot of stock in the literal meaning of the statement. It’s the spirit of the thing that counts.

[Prospero]

KittyKaiti wrote: "And Adolf Hitler would be busting in his pants if he had what the U.S. has today to control the population. "

I see this as a direct referenceto the people in power in Washington ... or are you excepting the president?

I did not ay anywhere that all people with gun are racist. I said that the sort of people who you praise are the sort whose prejudice 9along with Mr Bundy's attitudes to Black folk) probably also have a similar dislike of other minorities - Muslims, Gays, the transgendered. Please offer me some evidence that these brave little men of the militias with their gun obsession love girls like you? You despite liberal values - yet in the more liberal parts of america benefit from them. Outside of these areas girls like you would stand a good chance of being lynched... especially if you were also black.

Your aggression in your posts displays pretty strong xenophobic strand I'm afraid with your absurd remarks about britain - and Europe.

Oh and I see in your response to Trish you mention the feds pointing their guns at women and children. I have also seen a clip where one of the brave militiamen said they'd put the girls out front - as a "human shield" so that if the shooting starts the news cameras would show the feds gunning down women. Very Saddam that one...

[Prospero]

I wonder if Kitti is auditioning for a job with Fox? or as a shockjock?

Do you enjoy Fox, Kitty - that big network owned by one of the world's most successful media barons who will align his media empire sides with whichever regime he needs to in order to sustain his revenue flow?

[broncofan]

The issue has evolved from one about whether the federal government had any right to charge grazing fees on government land, to whether the courts were right to issue an injunction against Bundy, to whether the government used too much force in seizing Bundy's cattle, to whether Bundy is a racist.

The people who supported Bundy like Sean Hannity knew better than to defend him once news of his most recent comments were published. The only question is what stop each of his defenders chose to exit the crazy train at. There was never a single issue to defend.

The government waited too long to take action against Bundy. They did not use the force necessary to do what a court said they had a right to do. They did not prevent Bundy from continue to break the law.

And who is this rancher patriot they were defending? Someone who thinks African-Americans had a family life under slavery. What is most appalling about his analogy is that he seems to have no conception of what life must have been like under our system of slavery. I don't know personally or viscerally what it must have been like, but I know there's just about nothing worse than a system where people are chattel and used as personal property.

It's time to exit this train Kitty. There will be other issues and other people with some scrap of decency to defend. Bundy's not that guy.

[kittyKaiti]

KittyKaiti wrote: "And Adolf Hitler would be busting in his pants if he had what the U.S. has today to control the population. "

I see this as a direct referenceto the people in power in Washington ... or are you excepting the president?

I did not ay anywhere that all people with gun are racist. I said that the sort of people who you praise are the sort whose prejudice 9along with Mr Bundy's attitudes to Black folk) probably also have a similar dislike of other minorities - Muslims, Gays, the transgendered. Please offer me some evidence that these brave little men of the militias with their gun obsession love girls like you? You despite liberal values - yet in the more liberal parts of america benefit from them. Outside of these areas girls like you would stand a good chance of being lynched... especially if you were also black.

Your aggression in your posts displays pretty strong xenophobic strand I'm afraid with your absurd remarks about britain - and Europe.

Oh and I see in your response to Trish you mention the feds pointing their guns at women and children. I have also seen a clip where one of the brave militiamen said they'd put the girls out front - as a "human shield" so that if the shooting starts the news cameras would show the feds gunning down women. Very Saddam that one...

First things first. The militia that went to defend the Bundy Ranch belong to and was organized by the Oath Keepers. You can read all about their beliefs and standings as patriotic defenders of the Republic here: http://oathkeepers.org/oath/about/

Their website has a cool section regarding their stances on discrimination, "We are Not advocating or promoting any act or acts of aggression against any organization or person for any reason including, but not limited to; race, religion, national origin, political affiliation, gender or sexual orientation." Suck it.

One dumb retired Sheriff made that comment about putting women and children in front of the militia. No one else condoned that. You like to take one individual's comments and try to make them apply to everyone there.

In regards to the Hitler comment. I wasn't comparing Hitler to specific politicians in power. I was comparing several policies, regulations and technological capabilities our government uses against its own people that Hitler (and Stalin I suppose too) would have a field day with. NSA wiretapping, internet spying, drone airstrike assassinations, FBI facial recognition technology, RFID tracking chips, surveillance cameras everywhere.

Damn, is the midwest U.S. that dangerous these days? I wonder, have YOU traveled alone, by car, across the entire United States? I sure have. Twice. I drove from New York to Los Angeles and then a year later, from Las Vegas to New York. I stopped at places such as Flagstaff, AZ; Albuquerque, NM; Oklahoma City, OK; Amarillo, TX; Joplin, MO; Roswell, NM; Lawrence, KS; and a variety of rest stops and truck stops along the way to refuel, full of "redneck murderous white supremacists". Oh wait. They weren't murderous white supremacists. Your train of thought about the American people, especially non-liberals, is quite dated. I have a better chance of being brutally raped and murdered walking through Chicago or Manhattan than I do in East Bumblefuck, USA.


I wonder if Kitti is auditioning for a job with Fox? or as a shockjock?

Do you enjoy Fox, Kitty - that big network owned by one of the world's most successful media barons who will align his media empire sides with whichever regime he needs to in order to sustain his revenue flow?

I don't watch any form of mainstream news except to find out the weather. And for that I use the Weather Channel. Fox, CNN, MSNBC, ABC, CBS and every other major network is the same lying, deceptive BS as all the others.

[kittyKaiti]

No you are. I said, “Cliven's not a hero. He's an excuse. He's an excuse for looney, white supremacist, anti-U.S. government, slim[e]balls to get out their guns, wave them around and ejaculate a few rounds of stupidity, ignorance and hatred. They're such magnificent specimens of masculinity, don't you think?”

And at no point did I say Cliven and his white supremacist friends Nazis.


Your absolute inability to comprehend English disturbs me.

"He's an excuse for looney, white supremacist, .... a few rounds of stupidity, ignorance and hatred."

White Supremacists are racist individuals, typically associated with Neo-Nazis, the KKK, Aryan Nations, Hammerskins and other white power movement groups, known for their hatred of non-whites. Stop embarrassing yourself.

[trish]

Your absolute inability to comprehend English disturbs me.

"He's an excuse for looney, white supremacist, .... a few rounds of stupidity, ignorance and hatred."

White Supremacists are racist individuals, typically associated with Neo-Nazis, the KKK, Aryan Nations, Hammerskins and other white power movement groups, known for their hatred of non-whites. Stop embarrassing yourself.

You said,


You're implying the protesters and militia are Nazis, Klansmen and psychopaths. No. You did. I only said, “Cliven's not a hero. He's an excuse. He's an excuse for looney, white supremacist, anti-U.S. government, slim[e]balls to get out their guns, wave them around and ejaculate a few rounds of stupidity, ignorance and hatred. They're such magnificent specimens of masculinity, don't you think?”

If I’m required to read Cliven’s idiotic remarks literally, then please do me the curtesey of reading mine, literally and without assumption.

Yeah, we could argue about the literal dictionary definition of “white supremacist” (n. a person who believes that the white race is or should be supreme), “neo-nazi” vs “nazi”, what the subject of the third sentence in quotes is etc. But that would be all aside the point. It is telling that this non-point is the only thing you seem to find disturbing.

It will cost you on average $16 per head per month to rent grazing land from a private owner. The U.S. in Nevada is charging less than $2 per head per month, yet Bundy won’t pay it? Not disturbing?
Of course not. He doesn’t recognize the Federal government, just the good ol’ county sheriff.

How about the fact that up until twenty years ago Cliven’s cattle grazed legally for free and as of twenty years ago illegally for free and yet at the same time he complains about the welfare negro? Disturbing?
No, he has a negro friend who’s down with that.

How about the fact that Cliven claims to be a freedom-lover and yet he often finds himself wondering whether or not the negro was better off enslaved? Isn’t that downright contradictory?
Not really. Cliven is a deep and careful thinker and you got to read him carefully.

How about the fact that Cliven doesn’t seem to know that slaves in the South had no assurances of a family life? Not disturbing?
Enough with the lib tears. I’m drownin’ here. Anyway this isn’t about race its about guns.

How about the fact that there’s a young woman who claims she is a lover of freedom but doesn’t seem to find anything at all disturbing or puzzling about any of Cliven’s views? She finds them all just peachy keen? Disturbing?
Naw, not disturbing...shameful.

[kittyKaiti]

You said,

No. You did. I only said, “Cliven's not a hero. He's an excuse. He's an excuse for looney, white supremacist, anti-U.S. government, slim[e]balls to get out their guns, wave them around and ejaculate a few rounds of stupidity, ignorance and hatred. They're such magnificent specimens of masculinity, don't you think?”

If I’m required to read Cliven’s idiotic remarks literally, then please do me the curtesey of reading mine, literally and without assumption.

Yeah, we could argue about the literal dictionary definition of “white supremacist” (n. a person who believes that the white race is or should be supreme), “neo-nazi” vs “nazi”, what the subject of the third sentence in quotes is etc. But that would be all aside the point. It is telling that this non-point is the only thing you seem to find disturbing.

It will cost you on average $16 per head per month to rent grazing land from a private owner. The U.S. in Nevada is charging less than $2 per head per month, yet Bundy won’t pay it? Not disturbing?
Of course not. He doesn’t recognize the Federal government, just the good ol’ county sheriff.

How about the fact that up until twenty years ago Cliven’s cattle grazed legally for free and as of twenty years ago illegally for free and yet at the same time he complains about the welfare negro? Disturbing?
No, he has a negro friend who’s down with that.

How about the fact that Cliven claims to be a freedom-lover and yet he often finds himself wondering whether or not the negro was better off enslaved? Isn’t that downright contradictory?
Not really. Cliven is a deep and careful thinker and you got to read him carefully.

How about the fact that Cliven doesn’t seem to know that slaves in the South had no assurances of a family life? Not disturbing?
Enough with the lib tears. I’m drownin’ here. Anyway this isn’t about race its about guns.

How about the fact that there’s a young woman who claims she is a lover of freedom but doesn’t seem to find anything at all disturbing or puzzling about any of Cliven’s views? She finds them all just peachy keen? Disturbing?
Naw, not disturbing...shameful.

I don't find anything disturbing with his views because I've watched and listened to his several interviews since and understand what he was trying to convey. He is an old man from a different era and a rural rancher, not a college English grad who can speak in eloquent manners like professional public speakers. You also seem so upset over his use of the word "negro", however, in his youth and during that time period, "negro" was the politically correct, non-racist way to refer to a black individual. Today we use "African American" and even now there are people claiming that is offensive. So, please, inform the world how you would like to be referred to when someone is trying to describe a person's race and color of skin, that is not offensive.

You are still missing the entire point. You called the militia and anti-BLM protesters "white supremacists". How do you know that? Have you talked to any of them? Have you asked each of these protesters and militiamen what their views are of African descended American peoples?

I also don't care what he owes the BLM. Just because the federal government believes it has the right to declare arbitrary rules and regulations whenever it feels like, just because it can, does not mean such rules are okay. He has to pay money so cows can chew on grass? What's next? Oh wait. Lawmakers in Washington state suggested passing a bicycling air pollution tax because humans exhale carbon dioxide and threatens the O-Zone with green house gases. I guess the government can start enforcing breathing taxes at the point of a gun too? Screw the government.

[Prospero]

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2014/04/22/records-show-bundys-claims-bogus/

[robertlouis]

It strikes me that some people will always take the side of a crank because the federal government is always wrong. Which would be the federal government that abolished slavery, passed the civil rights act and sawn the new deal through to save the world economy. Oh well.

[Prospero]

It strikes me that some people will always take the side of a crank because the federal government is always wrong. Which would be the federal government that abolished slavery, passed the civil rights act and sawn the new deal through to save the world economy. Oh well.

... and helped defeat Nazism and came to the rescue of europe during WW1 and introduced the new Deal to help end the worst depression in US history and introduced affordable health care to finally make available treatment for those who couldn't afford it before...

[broncofan]

You also seem so upset over his use of the word "negro", however, in his youth and during that time period, "negro" was the politically correct, non-racist way to refer to a black individual.
A lot has happened since he was a youth. Most people learn throughout life. Some children pick their nose. As adults they are expected not to do that in public.

Kittykaiti you are beyond hope. Sane people would not expect to be allowed to use government or private land they do not own without being subject to regulation of that use. There's nothing arbitrary about charging fees that approximate the cost (or even a fraction of it) that someone's use exacts on land.

A lot of militia men are bigots. Perhaps not every group, but it's difficult to keep track of every group of nutjobs threatening the government. So you say your nutjobs are equal opportunity nutjobs. That's fine. They are still morons.

[buttslinger]

There's a species of bird in California that has changed it's wingspan in the last 100 years so it can fly out of the way of cars quicker.

I don't know if it's natural selection, or if the birds willed it to happen.

I do know the Goldwater Republicans are dying off.

The Europeans who sailed the triangle, the Africans who enslaved other tribes and sold them, the New Worlders who bought them so they could turn fields into thriving plantations, they're all dead now. They weren't trying to change the world, they were trying to make a buck in hard times.

Debate is fine, but actually changing things is slower, and not always dependent on what's right. The way it is, that is what's right.

Cliven Bundy doesn't need a Harvard education, in fact it would probably interfere with his duties as a rancher. His parents didn't debate if he should be smart or stupid, but the lion's share of ranchers know enough to pay their bills.

Fifty years ago the US was 85% white, if I win a Debate that says we should be 100% white, I doubt all the non-whites will leave. There are unseen forces at work here. Like REALITY. I'm positive Cliven wishes the Blacks had not been brought over here as Slaves. I heard him say that the Mexicans are much better workers.

[Ben]

It strikes me that some people will always take the side of a crank because the federal government is always wrong. Which would be the federal government that abolished slavery, passed the civil rights act and sawn the new deal through to save the world economy. Oh well.

Change comes from the bottom up. And never the top down. Change occurs because of people... and not from people in positions of power.

[fred41]

I always think it's funny when people will dismiss all news organizations...but then have no problem citing Alex Jones as their source of information...often their main source ...and not even cracking a smile.

[trish]

You are still missing the entire point. You called the militia and anti-BLM protesters "white supremacists". I thought you said the whole point was the over-reaction of BLM officers. But okay, like Buttslinger’s birds with enlarged wingspans, the situation has evolved. So now listen very carefully.

Cliven's not a hero. He's an excuse. He's an excuse for looney, white supremacist, anti-U.S. government, slim[e]balls to get out their guns, wave them around and ejaculate a few rounds of stupidity, ignorance and hatred.

Did I say the milita were white supremacist? Look again. Did I say the anti-BLM protesters were white supremacist? Look again. For the record, I don’t doubt quite a number of those folk are white supremacists, given the “associations” to which you yourself as well as Broncofan have alluded. But didn’t say anything of like, “X are white supremacist slimeballs.” Instead I said that looney, white supremacist, anti-U.S.government slimeballs were using Cliven as an excuse. See the difference now. And who are these slimeballs? Some of them have driven down to Bunkerville to be sure (and btw the town’s not all the happy with the influx of all those armed assholes). But those slimeballs are all over the U.S. and the web waving their guns (literally and metaphorically) and loudly ejaculating their rounds of stupidity (that word, “stupidity” should’ve been a clue that this part of the sentence was a metaphor), ignorance and hatred. I believe somebody here posted a screen-sized picture of a gun while supporting Cliven’s racism.


I also don't care what he owes the BLM. Just because the federal government believes it has the right to declare arbitrary rules and regulations whenever it feels like, Of course the new regulations on land use weren’t arbitrary. They arose from a conservation study that predated the regulations by nearly five years. We live in a democracy, and we have passed an endangered species protection act. I know. I know. Freedom fears a liberal’s tears. But the arbitrary act here was not the government passing new regulations on land use. The arbitrary act was not enforcing them for twenty years. In my opinion the local official who oversaw those particular Federal lands upon which Cliven was freeloading needs to lose his or her job.


Lawmakers in Washington state suggested... Safe to say you’re not for State’s rights then, right? But the key difference here is the word, “suggested.” In a democracy you can suggest and consider anything. We live in a fuckin’ democratic republic! We can propose things. We can discuss things. We can discover together why they’re silly or why we might want to implement them. That’s the fucking point of a democracy. But Cliven didn’t break a suggestion. He broke the law.


You also seem so upset over his use of the word "negro", however, in his youth and during that time period, "negro" was the politically correct, non-racist way to refer to a black individual. Today we use "African American" and even now there are people claiming that is offensive. So, please, inform the world how you would like to be referred to when someone is trying to describe a person's race and color of skin, that is not offensive.Here the keywords are “seem” and “upset.” I’m not. But that doesn’t much matter. The world doesn’t tip-toe around or give two shits about my feelings. I suppose if Cliven was 90, I’d find his usage of the word “negro” quaint. So how old is Cliven? He was born in 1946. He’s now 67. How many 67 year old guys here use the word “negro”? The word “black” displaced the word “negro” in the very late 60’s early 70’s. Cliven was 24 in 1970. He clearly decided to resist the change. But hey, that's okay. But what’s up with the phase, “the negro”? The negro this. The negro that. I do find that a little objectifying but certainly not damning. I certainly don’t need to tell the world “Please don’t refer to African-Americans as the Negro.” But since you asked, here is what the world should know is offensive: A man who wonders, not once, not twice, but often wonders whether the negro was better off under slavery, is not a man who loves or even knows the meaning of the word, “freedom.” Cliven is just a rancher who wants to feed his cows for free.

[broncofan]

In my opinion the local official who oversaw those particular Federal lands upon which Cliven was freeloading needs to lose his or her job.

A good post. I want to focus on this point because I think it's an important rebuttal for the overreaching, excessive force arguments. I think officials should try to use the least intrusive means necessary to prevent someone from breaking the law. You are talking about the local official who didn't enforce the federal law, but imo it's even a failure of the federal government's enforcement powers once violations had gone on for a while. And that's because they were not able to abate the illegal actions. This was not civil disobedience on the part of Bundy because he threatened to use force to protect his cattle.

I think people have a right not to comply with a law that violates a clearly established constitutional norm. That would be for instance if a state made abortion illegal, no matter how it was performed and when. You can't see from the face of the constitution that such an action would be unconstitutional, but there is clear precedent on the issue. The highest court in the land has ruled on that specific issue...not an ancillary issue but that issue. Of course, there would be limits to whether you could use force in resisting attempts to enforce that law. But at least you wouldn't be making this crazy argument that everyone is entitled to his own interpretation of the constitution regardless of how our judiciary has ruled. That's a recipe for anarchy.

[blakpadi]

No matter kitty that you have a man in uniform and gun fetish Libertarian view of the world...no matter how you slice/graze it,I don't think you 'd be welcome with open arms out their at the ranch,I've been wrong before but I think 100% of those guys in public would tell you to get the fuck out...but 60% of them would fuck you and suck your cock behind closed doors...

[buttslinger]

State Rights was a recipe for the American Civil War.
I think it's been proven that Fox News is a joke, in fact most of the crap you read on the internet is slanted bullshit, read the paper every day and you'll be OK.

Tune into conservative talk radio some time in your car. It's not as scripted as Fox, and half the time they have to cut short their own conservative callers as much as the liberals. Kitty is quite coherent compared to many of the yahoos who want to speak their mind on the lower budget, local talk shows. I think Kitty makes lots of sense (see attached)
It's about Priorities.

[broncofan]

On the whole Libertarian meme, I do want to bring up a potentially Libertarian rationale for grazing fees. When cattle graze on land, they do exact a cost to the owners of that land. On public land, the average person walking on land to sight see is not using the land in the same sense that a large herd of cattle is. If we are to respect property rights at all, then it is reasonable for people to pay for externalized costs. Without such taxation, individuals would have an incentive to despoil the natural resources on public land. I think taxation intended to create efficient use is called a Pigouvian tax.

Were the land privately held, the owner could exclude Cliven from using it entirely and Cliven would not be able to use it unless he could pay the owner a license fee in excess of the cost of his use. Even still, the owner could get some intrinsic enjoyment out of excluding people from his land and decide not accept such a license fee. But why should the government allow some people to deplete natural resources on public land without implementing a tax to either discourage that behavior or pay for the cost of remediating it?

Tragedy of the commons - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons)

[kittyKaiti]

I'm ignoring Trish from now on. Obviously, she is a lost cause.



No matter kitty that you have a man in uniform and gun fetish Libertarian view of the world...no matter how you slice/graze it,I don't think you 'd be welcome with open arms out their at the ranch,I've been wrong before but I think 100% of those guys in public would tell you to get the fuck out...but 60% of them would fuck you and suck your cock behind closed doors...

You, sir..... are fucking retarded.

[broncofan]

The reason I say it is consistent with Libertarian ideals is this. By charging such a tax you are simulating the market relationship between two individuals if all property were private. As I said, Bundy could be excluded from the land, and the landowner would only be rational if he charged a fee in excess of the cost of letting Bundy graze there.

[blakpadi]

Kitty-
1)Do you or do you not have a thing for guys in uniform.
2)Do you love Guns?
3)I didn't see any signs welcoming the LGBT community to come out for the cause...yeah right!
4)I bet 60% of those guys maybe higher???if they could on The DL!
5)I've never drank the Schenectady Electric City water,so I'm fine as far as the -PC-"Challenged" thing goes.

[kittyKaiti]

Kitty-
1)Do you or do you not have a thing for guys in uniform.
2)Do you love Guns?
3)I didn't see any signs welcoming the LGBT community to come out for the cause...yeah right!
4)I bet 60% of those guys maybe higher???if they could on The DL!
5)I've never drank the Schenectady Electric City water,so I'm fine as far as the -PC-"Challenged" thing goes.

1: A thing for guys in uniform? I don't consider it a fetish of mine. I have the utmost respect however, for any serviceman and woman who serves this country under sworn oath, and who uphold their oaths to serve and protect the people, and defend the Constitution from all enemies, foreign and domestic.

2: Yes. I am a gun owner and I strongly support the Second Amendment of the U.S. Constitution.

3: Why would there be any signs about LGBT people at a protest against government tyranny?

4: What the hell does that have to do with anything?

5: ...What??? :confused:

[ohiodick]

In an interview with CNN, Bundy defended his original comments and said he didn't understand why people reacted so negatively to his views.

CNN's Bill Weir told Bundy that his judgements were "disgusting," and later asked, “How does it feel to be abandoned by your friends on Fox? I mean, the only reason we could get you on tonight is that, I’m guessing, they didn’t call.”

[Prospero]

Fox begins its own (un)civil war over who supported the racist Cliven Bundy.

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2014/04/25/fox-news-pundit-and-host-attack-conservatives-on-fox-news-for-supporting-cliven-bundy-videos/

[trish]

Not recognizing the existence of the Federal Government was Cliven’s initial appeal. The people who screamed that those of us who protested against the Iraq War were unpatriotic are the same people who love this freeloader’s anti-U.S. government stance. The same people who complained that Obama didn’t wear a flag pin and who falsely claimed he didn’t place his hand over his heart during the Pledge of Allegience, the same people who claim to worship The Constitution fail to recognize the very government it authorizes! The problem is, the very roots of the anti-U.S. government movement go back to LBJ’s signing of the Civil Rights Act. That bill sent southern democrats flocking to the republican party. Many of them collected arsenals, formed paramilitary organizations, re-vitalized the Klan and ranted against the Federal government and its taxes. Their line leads directly to Terry Nichols, Timothy McVeigh and the Oklahoma Bombing of 1995. Young libertarians whose heads are swimming with the silly romanticisms to be found in Atlas Shrugged and the Fountainhead are swept into this movement, often unawares of the sludge lying just beneath the tide. Fox News pundits (slow witted though they are) should perhaps have known better, but they didn’t. Then: Surprise, surprise, Cliven Bundy is a racist!!!


Thanks for the article Prospero.

[trish]

A good post. I want to focus on this point because I think it's an important rebuttal for the overreaching, excessive force arguments. I think officials should try to use the least intrusive means necessary to prevent someone from breaking the law. You are talking about the local official who didn't enforce the federal law, but imo it's even a failure of the federal government's enforcement powers once violations had gone on for a while. And that's because they were not able to abate the illegal actions. This was not civil disobedience on the part of Bundy because he threatened to use force to protect his cattle.

I think people have a right not to comply with a law that violates a clearly established constitutional norm. That would be for instance if a state made abortion illegal, no matter how it was performed and when. You can't see from the face of the constitution that such an action would be unconstitutional, but there is clear precedent on the issue. The highest court in the land has ruled on that specific issue...not an ancillary issue but that issue. Of course, there would be limits to whether you could use force in resisting attempts to enforce that law. But at least you wouldn't be making this crazy argument that everyone is entitled to his own interpretation of the constitution regardless of how our judiciary has ruled. That's a recipe for anarchy.Good argument, but my guess is that libertarians like Rand Paul and his pappy are too entrenched in their anti-everything-government stance to see it.

As to the local official who oversaw those Federal lands upon which Cliven was freeloading, who is she or he? Why don't we know? Shouldn't we be asking if there was any quid quo pro corruption going on here?

[broncofan]

As to the local official who oversaw those Federal lands upon which Cliven was freeloading, who is she or he? Why don't we know? Shouldn't we be asking if there was any quid quo pro corruption going on here?
That's a good question. I think they should treat this as a failure of the system (though not for the reason some think:)) and figure out from the ground up who wasn't doing his or her job.

[Turlington]

Cow pies

[trish]

"...treating Mr. Bundy as some kind of libertarian hero is, not to put too fine a point on it, crazy. Suppose he had been grazing his cattle on land belonging to one of his neighbors, and had refused to pay for the privilege. That would clearly have been theft — and brandishing guns when someone tried to stop the theft would have turned it into armed robbery. The fact that in this case the public owns the land shouldn’t make any difference."

"...today’s conservative leaders were raised on Ayn Rand’s novels and Ronald Reagan’s speeches (as opposed to his actual governance, which was a lot more flexible than the legend). They insist that the rights of private property are absolute, and that government is always the problem, never the solution.The trouble is that such beliefs are fundamentally indefensible in the modern world, which is rife with what economists call externalities — costs that private actions impose on others, but which people have no financial incentive to avoid. You might want, for example, to declare that what a farmer does on his own land is entirely his own business; but what if he uses pesticides that contaminate the water supply, or antibiotics that speed the evolution of drug-resistant microbes? You might want to declare that government intervention never helps; but who else can deal with such problems?
Well, one answer is denial — insistence that such problems aren’t real, that they’re invented by elitists who want to take away our freedom. And along with this anti-intellectualism goes a general dumbing-down, an exaltation of supposedly ordinary folks who don’t hold with this kind of stuff. Think of it as the right’s duck-dynastic moment.
You can see how Mr. Bundy, who came across as a straight-talking Marlboro Man, fit right into that mind-set. Unfortunately, he turned out to be a bit more straight-talking than expected."

___Paul Krugman

http://nyti.ms/1kazL22


....

[blakpadi]

Isn't there an island somewhere that these fucking clowns can just move to,not pay taxes,dress up Army everyday and walk around armed to the teeth while listening to Rush on a headset?

[blakpadi]

They could get split screen KittyKaiti live cam with Hannity @ 10EST -Kitty could do a helluva show with a double barrel shot gun in a Revolutionary period hat...

[kittyKaiti]

Suppose he had been grazing his cattle on land belonging to one of his neighbors, and had refused to pay for the privilege. That would clearly have been theft — and brandishing guns when someone tried to stop the theft would have turned it into armed robbery. The fact that in this case the public owns the land shouldn’t make any difference.[/I]"

Well, however, the land is not private land, bu taxpayer owned land. Land owned by the people, including Cliven Bundy, which gives him rightful authority to use. "Government land" does not exist, for the government is created by, for, and of humankind. This is not theft, nor armed robbery, but a human being and a tax payer claiming his lawful right as a citizen of the United States to access "public land" for the purpose of his cows to chew on grass.


but what if he uses pesticides that contaminate the water supply, or antibiotics that speed the evolution of drug-resistant microbes? You might want to declare that government intervention never helps; but who else can deal with such problems?

The utter hilarity of this bit is the fact that the U.S. Supreme Courts and the Food & Drug Administration have repeatedly authorized the use of Monsanto, Syngenta and other Big Agriculture industrialist corporations to use pesticides, herbicides, anti-bacterials, fertilizers, GMO's, and other synthetic bio-hazards on our food supply resulting in the increase in diseases such as cancers and Austism, and additives to our water supplies (fluoride and lithium), and to our medical technologies (mercury) known to cause Aspergers, Autism, etc that poison us everyday of our lives. Or the excessive use of vaccinations and antibiotics and anti-virals resulting in the drastic increase in drug-resistant super-bugs that kill thousands in hospitals annually like MERSA and others (drug resistant Chlamydia and Gonorrhea). So much for trustworthy federal government oversight of private industry.


They could get split screen KittyKaiti live cam with Hannity @ 10EST -Kitty could do a helluva show with a double barrel shot gun in a Revolutionary period hat...

Meh, double barrel shotguns are for Vice President Biden and his ingenious home defense safety ideas: http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/02/27/joe-biden-has-more-gun-advice-just-fire-the-shotgun-through-the-door/

I prefer my Smith & Wesson M&P15 AR-15 in 5.56x45 NATO for taking out home invaders.

[trish]

Well, however, the land is not private land, bu taxpayer owned land. Land owned by the people, including Cliven Bundy, which gives him rightful authority to use.That's the stupidest thing I've heard in awhile. So do we all have the “rightful authority” to graze cattle, drill for oil or take a shit on any land that's government owned, or just those of us who take the "rightful authority" at gunpoint?
Notice Krugman didn’t say this was armed robbery. He said it would’ve been armed robbery had it been private property and the fact that it isn’t private property shouldn’t (but does) make a difference. I think it’s a fairly apt analogy, given that the first person here to make the armed theft analogy was Cliven himself who claimed the government was making a land grab at gunpoint! Now that’s pretty ridiculous since the government already owns the land and has since 1848.


The utter hilarity of this bit is the fact that the U.S. Supreme Courts and the Food & Drug Administration have repeatedly authorized the use of Monsanto, Syngenta and other Big Agriculture industrialist corporations to use pesticides, herbicides, anti-bacterials, fertilizers, GMO's,...It’s not just industrialist corporations, but also family farmers as well who use pesticides, herbicides etc. manufactured by the likes of Monsanto. The utter hilarity of this is without government regulation all such products would be defacto authorized.

BTW mercury doesn’t cause autism and floride doesn’t contaminate your Purity Of Essence. I would, however, agree that the use of antibiotics by the ag industry should be regulated, but not by a private army at the point of the gun, but by Federal Agencies. First we have to get the conservatives and libertarians to agree that regulation of the ag-industry’s use of antibiotics is required. Fat chance, since they believe that with private ownership comes the right to do anything you fucking well want to do. Hell, you and Cliven think you can do anything you want even if you don't own the property, as long as its owned by taxpayers. Then there is the problem of enforcement, since you and Cliven think it perfectly fine to obstruct the enforcement of Federal law with an army of racist nitwits totting an arsenal loaded weapons.

[kittyKaiti]

It’s not just industrialist corporations, but also family farmers as well who use pesticides, herbicides etc. manufactured by the likes of Monsanto. The utter hilarity of this is without government regulation all such products would be defacto authorized.

BTW mercury doesn’t cause autism and floride doesn’t contaminate your Purity Of Essence. I would, however, agree that the use of antibiotics by the ag industry should be regulated, but not by a private army at the point of the gun, but by Federal Agencies. First we have to get the conservatives and libertarians to agree that regulation of the ag-industry’s use of antibiotics is required. Fat chance, since they believe that with private ownership comes the right to do anything you fucking well want to do. Hell, you and Cliven think you can do anything you want even if you don't own the property, as long as its owned by taxpayers. Then there is the problem of enforcement, since you and Cliven think it perfectly fine to obstruct the enforcement of Federal law with an army of racist nitwits totting an arsenal loaded weapons.

But it is authorized. Which scares me and should scare you. The amount of fake, synthetic garbage they put in our food and water supplies are horrifying. The fact that the all knowing and trustworthy federal government says it's okay too (only because of industry lobbyists and Supreme Court justices appointed to their positions, whom formerly were Monsanto defense attorneys) should be enough evidence that our system is screwed. "Purity of Essence"? What? Fluoride is known to cause neurological damage and despite its claimed use to prevent tooth decay; too much fluoride exposure actually increases tooth rot. Our environment-obsessed alphabet agencies like the FDA and BLM are nothing more than corrupted bureaucracies enforcing corporate interests at gun point.

"Army of racist nitwits toting an arsenal of loaded weapons". I already asked you prior regarding your ignorant use of "racists" and "white supremacists" to describe the anti-BLM protesters and militia members. I'm going to ask you to stop calling them racists unless you can tell me that you drove out to Bunkerville and asked each one of them if they hate black people. Otherwise, you are embarrassing yourself and slandering thousands of people, including myself.

[trish]

But it is authorized.Like I said, without government everything is defacto authorized. So if you want protect your food and water, and stymie the evolution of drug resistant bacteria, convince your libertarian and conservative friends that regulation ain't such a bad thing sometimes. Vote the assholes who don't believe that government should interfere in these sorts of things out of office. At least don't give them your vote.

you are embarrassing yourselfIt would be embarrassing for anyone to insist Cliven was not a racist. His army of nitwits listened to his racist diatribe, said nothing and continued to support him, even Fox while was running away from the creep. Just because you believe in Cliven's land grab theory doesn't mean you have wonder along with him whether the Negro was better off enslaved. Anyone who thinks that and called himself a lover of freedom is confused at best. Cliven doesn't love freedom. He doesn't know what freedom is. He's a rancher who wants his cows to eat for free.

[blakpadi]

Funny thing is,these self appointed Patriots whacking/walking around with their heavy metal strapped tight and Lookin' for a fight could someday find themselves droned to dust by some 20 something computer game geek sitting in a room in Pennsylvania.The don't take my guns so I can protect myself from the Government argument works from the fucking money hungry NRA mouthpiece-that is until the first drone hits over here and takes out an entire ranch of these yahoo's.Then they'll be broadcasting from bunkers.

[Prospero]

Ahh but doesn't the US constitution protect them - and give them the right to own drones?

[kittyKaiti]

Funny thing is,these self appointed Patriots whacking/walking around with their heavy metal strapped tight and Lookin' for a fight could someday find themselves droned to dust by some 20 something computer game geek sitting in a room in Pennsylvania.The don't take my guns so I can protect myself from the Government argument works from the fucking money hungry NRA mouthpiece-that is until the first drone hits over here and takes out an entire ranch of these yahoo's.Then they'll be broadcasting from bunkers.

The day the United States government starts drone striking it's own citizens on American soil for exercising their Constitutionally protected freedoms, is the day we should have been shooting at the government a long time ago.

The fact that you find such a thing humorous speaks volumes about the heartlessness people have for each other these days. "I disagree with your ideas, the government should drone you LOLOLOL"

Pic Related

[blakpadi]

Don't bring guns to a drone fight-Fuck the NRA and Fuck you KittyKaiti I have my rights too! My best friends head was blown off in the the 7th grade,3 kids having fun after school unfortunately one of my friends thought it would be fun to play with my best friend Joey's dad's guns,it went horribly wrong and I was their to witness the results.I've lived with that day and that loud sound,smell and what it's like to have your best friends brains,blood and flesh splattered and imbedded in your mind from a very early age was devastating to say the least.So Fuck your gun happy toting crew and the capitalist NRA scum that you worship-I can only pray that one by one you 'll all play Russian Roulette sooner than later.

[Prospero]

Kitty.... I agree. Hardly a joking matter. The lunatics who lined up to support that thief with their guns - and who threatened to start shooting Government servants - are no joking matter either. You and your survivalist chums should go live in the desert and leave the rest of society alone.

[kittyKaiti]

Don't bring guns to a drone fight-Fuck the NRA and Fuck you KittyKaiti I have my rights too! My best friends head was blown off in the the 7th grade,3 kids having fun after school unfortunately one of my friends thought it would be fun to play with my best friend Joey's dad's guns,it went horribly wrong and I was their to witness the results.I've lived with that day and that loud sound,smell and what it's like to have your best friends brains,blood and flesh splattered and imbedded in your mind from a very early age was devastating to say the least.So Fuck your gun happy toting crew and the capitalist NRA scum that you worship-I can only pray that one by one you 'll all play Russian Roulette sooner than later.

It is not my fault, nor the fault of the NRA, or anyone else, that a 7th grader (12, 13 years old?) decided to go for a Darwin Award despite knowing (or at that age should know) that death is permanent and weapons are dangerous and not toys.

[kittyKaiti]

Kitty.... I agree. Hardly a joking matter. The lunatics who lined up to support that thief with their guns - and who threatened to start shooting Government servants - are no joking matter either. You and your survivalist chums should go live in the desert and leave the rest of society alone.

Then stay in your little safe haven of England. Don't come here.

[trish]

She's right, Prospero, guns have made it unsafe here.

[blakpadi]

Spoken like a true compassionate DICK Cheney conservative! No it's not your fault or your NRA pals,never said it was but the Wild West was no place for kids and kids have rights too we are supposed to be a civilized society and maybe your twisted idea of a civilized society is everyone walking around with guns and looking over your shoulder for the next nut to open fire but it's not mine nor the majority of people in this country.

KittyKaiti response:Well at least I'd have my gun if a nut did open fire....blah,blah,blah..bullshit bullshit bullshit...typical,typical,typical...

I'm out of here,done with talking with people that there idea of a good time is going to the firing range,fucking stupid people with a gun fetish...Hapiness is a warm gun...bang bang shoot shoot...ta ta...

[Prospero]

What a ludicrous response from our resident gun nutjob. i have spent and will continue to spend a good part of my time in the US - for family and working reasons. I have travelled coast to coast - several times - to answer your question from some time back. I have been in Kansas and Colorado and Arizona and utah and most of the states. I enjoy the deep south. I see many very great and wonderful things about America. I do not think all Americans or white folk (like me) are gun nuts. But there are way too many of you. That is one of the biggest flaws in modern America.

Meanwhile I wonder if your "deep" knowledge of and scabrous contempt for the UK comes from anything other than ignorant prejudice, Ms Kaiti.


I see blackpadi's POV well.

[trish]

...My best friends head was blown off in the the 7th grade,3 kids having fun after school unfortunately one of my friends thought it would be fun to play with my best friend Joey's dad's guns,it went horribly wrong and I was their to witness the results.I've lived with that day and that loud sound,smell and what it's like to have your best friends brains,blood and flesh splattered and imbedded in your mind from a very early age was devastating to say the least....

I’ve got nothing I can say except a useless but compassionately offered, “Sorry.”

[trish]

It is not my fault, nor the fault of the NRA, or anyone else, that a 7th grader (12, 13 years old?) decided to go for a Darwin Award despite knowing (or at that age should know) that death is permanent and weapons are dangerous and not toys.

Nice sentiment. Darwin Award. What a bitch! So who was at fault in that incident? Does the blame all lie with the kids? Shouldn't the gun-owner in this case own some of the blame? Is it enough for him to say, "Shucks, I told them kids to stay away from my guns," and never serve a day in jail or pay so much as a fine? And why aren't there significant punishments for gun-owners who firearms are implemented in violent deaths? Why is there so much toxic lead flying through the atmosphere at ground level? Could it be that NRA lobbyists stymied all manner of gun regulation?

But the NRA can't be blamed. No. Nor their supporters. They're the good guns with the pearl handles and the white hats. Shit just happens. It's Darwinism. Survival of the species that best fits the niche. The kid was stupid. He deserved to die. What a bitch!

[robertlouis]

I tend to find that argument is only constructive when both sides are listening.

Guys, you might just be wasting your time here.

[kittyKaiti]

What a ludicrous response from our resident gun nutjob.

Next time you threaten to ban me, I suggest you watch your own language, buddy.

[kittyKaiti]

But the NRA can't be blamed. No. Nor their supporters.

No, sorry, no matter how much hate you can spew for gun owners and organizations, the NRA did not put that firearm in the kid's hand. I didn't put the gun in his hand. He picked it up himself. He shot himself with it. Stop trying to blame the rest of the world for the choices people make.

The father should have kept his guns in a secured location if they weren't in use. He should have taught his children gun safety. He should have informed his family about the dangers, that it isn't a toy, that it should never be touched and it should have been kept in a safe or locked. But the fact that someone who is old enough to know better, picked up a gun and put it to their head, is not my fault, nor the rest of the world's fault, nor the fault of the NRA.

It would be like if the kid took his dad's car keys and crashed and died and you try to blame Ford.

[Prospero]

No my dear Kitty.... my language is fine. Buddy.Describing someone as a gun nutjob is part of the discourse. Your comment regarding the darwin awards in reference to the tragic death of a young man is NOT acceptable.



Miss Kaiti is now taking a short enforced vacation from this forum.

[trish]

No, sorry, no matter how much hate you can spew for gun owners and organizations, the NRA did not put that firearm in the kid's hand. I didn't put the gun in his hand.Keep saying that, it's good for the soul. But it won't change the fact that the NRA and its supporters share responsibility, along with all us who continue to let it happen, for the deaths of tens of thousands of men, women and children every year.

[fred41]

You can't compare her to Dick Cheney because he's a Republican/ Conservative...or NeoCon - depending on who you're listening to. As such...he still believes in a mix of government and industry. Kittie, on the other hand, probably considers herself a libertarian...I'm guessing. However...she seems to get her info from the gov't conspiracy sites on the internet and because of that she's not really a libertarian either ( for reasons delineated in some of Trish's responses to her). Robert is therefore correct...you can't argue with a conspiracy theorist (honestly - she hits every anti govt...anti corporation talking
point making it's round on the web)...you will just be talking in circles and will never change their paranoid minds.

Apologies for any errors...I'm writing on my phone and its small...lol

[EvaCassini]

wow......................................

read everything ( thank you Prospero for pointing me here. Didn't even realize there was a board like this here. I always go straight to the General :p )

blakpadi - sorry that happened. went through an almost similar situation years ago with my step mom.

About Kitty... Never took her to be like that ( or any tranny ). Had to ask Jamie about her because I barely could remember who she was. Had her mixed up with someone else.
Still having a hard time accepting how some people ( like a tranny ) stand up for something as ludicrous as Cliven Bundy, his water-headed ideals, and his criminal gang.

Arrogance, ignorance, self-righteousness, and stupidity were all displayed by Kitty.

[crystalsopen]

"Wealthy tax cheat."
Yes I can explain the difference, there are many many differences, here are some of the most obvious:
1 Time, Mr. Bundy's dispute has been going on longer
2 The other people got medals based on their actions, not for accruing tax debts as the graphic implies.
3 Bundy and his supporters took up arms against the federal government (I wouldn't call this terrorism as the people the protesters where opposing where armed as well as professional soldiers, but a reasonable person could call it treason)
4 The leader of a nation might not want to give a medal to someone who does not recognize the authority of that nation.

The BLM's case for the grazing fees are kind of bullshit, but they are also the law.

[Ben]

Does Cliven Bundy Represent the Ugly American?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6Y6vi68MuI

[trish]

Cliven Bundy was denied bail today. Hooray!

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2016/02/16/1486205/-34-page-doc-just-slams-Cliven-Bundy-in-court

Some excepts


Bundy is lawless and violent. He does not recognize federal courts – claiming they are illegitimate – does not recognize federal law, refuses to obey federal court orders, has already used force and violence against federal law enforcement officers while they were enforcing federal court orders, nearly causing catastrophic loss of life or injury to others. He has pledged to do so again in the future to keep federal law enforcement officers from enforcing the law against him. As of the date of this hearing, he continues to violate federal court orders and continues to possess the proceeds of his illegal activities.
Bundy is currently charged with crimes of violence including using and brandishing firearms in connection with crimes of violence under Title 18, United States Code, Section 924(c). As such, the Bail Reform Act presumes that there areno conditions or combination of conditions that will ensure the safety of the community. 18 U.S.C. § 3142(e)(3)(B). Here, no evidence has been adduced during the investigation of the instant charges that even remotely hints at a rebuttal to that presumption. In fact, all the evidence suggests that Bundy will continue to act lawlessly, will not abide by court orders, and will use violence to ensure that federal laws are not enforced as to him.



While Bundy claims he is a cattle rancher, his ranching operation – to the extent it can be called that – is unconventional if not bizarre. Rather than manage and control his cattle, he lets them run wild on the public lands with little, if any, human interaction until such time when he traps them and hauls them off to be sold or slaughtered for his own consumption. He does not vaccinate or treat his cattle for disease; does not employ cowboys to control and herd them; does not manage or control breeding; has no knowledge of where all the cattle are located at any given time; rarely brands them before he captures them; and has to bait the minto traps in order to gather them.

[dreamon]

Cliven Bundy is a friend of the African-American community because he hugged a black man. So he could not be racist, despite the fact that he said African-Americans were better off as slaves.

Reminds me of how Bernie Sanders is considered a friend of the African America community despite Vermont black leaders denouncing him strongly, and all his policies being detrimental to blacks.

[dreamon]

Perhaps they should be looking at big business instead - people like the Koch brothers

Or George Soros. Or Tom Steyer. Or Haim Saban. Or Donald Sussman. Or Laure Woods. Or Herb Sandler. Or James Pritzker. Or Barbara Lee. Or Bernie Schwartz. Or Patricia Stryker. Or Dan Abraham. Or Steven Spielberg. Or Tom Tull. Or Jeffrey Katzenberg Or JJ Abrams. Or Stephen Silberstein. All of whom donated over a million dollars to Democrats. All of whom donated more than the Koch Brothers.

But yes, let's continue with the Koch Brothers boogie man, because it's very convenient since it is pushed by the Democratic propaganda machine.

[dreamon]

It strikes me that some people will always take the side of a crank because the federal government is always wrong. Which would be the federal government that abolished slavery, passed the civil rights act and sawn the new deal through to save the world economy. Oh well.

Which would be the government that established slavery, established the Jim Crow laws, established the Federal Reserve, spies on you through the NSA, put together the TPP, put together NAFTA, kills thousands of innocent children in foreign countries, denies the LGBT community equal rights and murders people who dare to stand up to all that.

[dreamon]

introduced the new Deal to help end the worst depression in US history

LOL! I sincerely hope this isn't serious. The New Deal worsened and prolonged the Depression. As did the World War the US unnecessarily and forcefully entered itself into.

[trish]

You do realize Prospero (a monitor who was well loved around here) died not long ago and is unable answer your posts or downthumb you. What a fuckin' jerk! Those posts are two years old; that's about your emotional age.

[broncofan]

Reminds me of how Bernie Sanders is considered a friend of the African America community despite Vermont black leaders denouncing him strongly, and all his policies being detrimental to blacks.
I'm not a Bernie Sanders supporter and I have no idea how his policies affect any community. But has he said anything as offensive as what Cliven Bundy said about African-Americans? That's not a rhetorical question. Has he?

[broncofan]

As did the World War the US unnecessarily and forcefully entered itself into.
In consecutive posts you are deploring U.S foreign policy that killed thousands of foreign children and U.S. foreign policy that helped prevent the eventual extermination of all non-German Europeans. I can't tell whether you value innocent life or not.

[dreamon]

I'm not a Bernie Sanders supporter and I have no idea how his policies affect any community. But has he said anything as offensive as what Cliven Bundy said about African-Americans? That's not a rhetorical question. Has he?

In 1972, he wrote about how all women fantasize about being gang raped. In 1969, he wrote about how the cause of ovarian cancer is a lack of orgasms.

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2015/07/bernie-sanders-vermont-freeman-sexual-freedom-fluoride

[dreamon]

In consecutive posts you are deploring U.S foreign policy that killed thousands of foreign children and U.S. foreign policy that helped prevent the eventual extermination of all non-German Europeans. I can't tell whether you value innocent life or not.

The loss of life in other countries is unfortunate. But our government has a responsibility to its own citizens, not others.

[broncofan]

In 1972, he wrote about how all women fantasize about being gang raped. In 1969, he wrote about how the cause of ovarian cancer is a lack of orgasms.

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2015/07/bernie-sanders-vermont-freeman-sexual-freedom-fluoride
I thought we were talking about racism against African-Americans. I said Cliven Bundy is a racist notwithstanding his hugging of a black man, and you said you think Bernie Sanders is too. I then asked whether Bernie Sanders has said anything as offensive about African-Americans as Bundy and you write about his alleged misogyny.

I almost think your bringing up Bernie Sanders is a complete non-sequitur.

[trish]

Cliven Bundy and eighteen others involved in the 2014 armed confrontation with the Federal government have been arrested (last week March 4) two years later. The government and the public has shown great constraint. Finally this blusterous, freeloading, gun-toting racist and his zombie followers are going to be brought to justice. Bundy, who is facing sixteen charges, refuses to enter a plea because he doesn’t recognize the authority of the United States of America in this affair. The judge entered a plea of “not guilty” in Bundy’s behalf.


http://nyti.ms/1QRpYO7

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/rancher-cliven-bundy-refuses-enter-plea-protesters-rally-support-n536206

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/cliven-bundy-refuses-enter-plea-recognize-federal-authority

[broncofan]

http://news3lv.com/news/local/bail-denied-again-for-rancher-cliven-bundy-in-2014-blm-standoff-case

[broncofan]

http://www.cnn.com/2016/10/27/us/oregon-standoff-ammon-bundy-acquittal/index.html

I haven't read the article carefully but this came up on my news feed. I owe it to all of the anti-government militia types on this forum to post this since I was very pleased the man and his cohorts were charged for what I thought was seditious activity. But a court has acquitted him on various charges.

But before you celebrate, the acquittal is under the authority of the same federal government the Bundys refused to recognize and considered an illegitimate tyrannical entity. So which is it?

[Stavros]

http://www.cnn.com/2016/10/27/us/oregon-standoff-ammon-bundy-acquittal/index.html

I haven't read the article carefully but this came up on my news feed. I owe it to all of the anti-government militia types on this forum to post this since I was very pleased the man and his cohorts were charged for what I thought was seditious activity. But a court has acquitted him on various charges.

But before you celebrate, the acquittal is under the authority of the same federal government the Bundys refused to recognize and considered an illegitimate tyrannical entity. So which is it?

Not sure they care. Reports in the press here suggest that if Trump wins he will rule by TV and decree, if Clinton wins it will be 'Choose your weapons', which could be anything from AK-47s to Pitchforks and flames.
Or it may be that reports on the death of American democracy are exaggerated.

[trish]

...
Or it may be that reports on the death of American democracy are exaggerated.Let's hope the latter. Yet the recent acquittal doesn't bode well. http://nyti.ms/2dQKbXf
At least we can rest in Trump's assurance that the Central Park Five are still guilty.
http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2016/10/07/donald_trump_says_central_park_5_are_still_guilty. html

[broncofan]

if Clinton wins it will be 'Choose your weapons', which could be anything from AK-47s to Pitchforks and flames.
.
Let's see. I have a feeling that when faced with the possibility of near certain death, most of these people are too comfortable to give up complaining about the media and the government...but I'm an optimist. That doesn't mean there aren't going to be flare-ups or the occasional dangerous lone-wolf given the world we live in.

[broncofan]

Let's hope the latter. Yet the recent acquittal doesn't bode well. http://nyti.ms/2dQKbXf
"I knew that what my husband was doing was right, but I was nervous because the judge was controlling the narrative,”

Welcome to the federal rules of evidence. Somehow the Judge thought your husband's paranoid imaginings were not probative of his guilt or innocence of specific crimes. You're right Trish , the acquittal does not bode well because it sounds like the defense made a jury nullification argument and it won.