Is Tgirl a better word - and should that become the norm?

[GroobySteven]

What do you think.
Is it ok to defer to someone as a tgirl?
Could it become a slur?

Thoughts?

Is this an acceptable word - and would girls be happier with it? Would it be less objectionable to be profited from?

[BellaBellucci]

This! Just 'TS' works, too.

~BB~

[SammiValentine]

What do you think.
Is it ok to defer to someone as a tgirl?
Could it become a slur?

Thoughts?

Is this an acceptable word - and would girls be happier with it? Would it be less objectionable to be profited from?

You can never keep everyone happy. I know plenty of girls some industry, some not, who dislike girl or TS or trans. Its woman or nothing for some.

As I said in the previous thread i find being referred to as "he" or "it" the most offensive. Especially by people who referred to you as she or her quitee happily before finding out you are trans and then well yea. That shit sucks.

[GroobySteven]

This! Just 'TS' works, too.

~BB~

You didn't answer the questions though?
Where did that word come from?
Could it become a slur?

And a new question, why is "tgirl" better than "tranny" ?

How did it become THE "word" ?

[Ben in LA]

You didn't answer the questions though?
Where did that word come from?
Could it become a slur?
I prefer Tgirl as well...and I consider it to be short for Transgender girl. Could it become a slur? Folks have to LET it become one...like the word queer or something.


And a new question, why is "tgirl" better than "tranny" ?

How did it become THE "word" ?
Can't really explain it...it seems less offensive to me (I rarely use the word "tranny" except when it's in a title of a movie or something of that nature).

[SammiValentine]

tgirl has a nicer ring to it than tranny or shemale, pardon the pun. :D but some will feel like tgirl is to general and they are being lumped with TV, CD etc. and there will be a mixture of much whining and much rejoicing. amen.

[ladd3rfr3ak]

I dont think that Tgirl would become a slur, as it doesnt sound harsh, and i do use this word when i am referring to M 2 F girls. Shemale is also another word that shouldn't be a slur, it sounds very much like female, if "female" is not a slur than "shemale" also shouldn't. thats my thoughts, you guys can have your opinion.

[GroobyKrissy]

When I first started off in the industry I specifically chose this word as the marketing word for a few reasons, most of which were business and search engine related. The primary reason though was because back then it seemed like it was a word that not very many people (read: industry models) were using and one that was immediately recognizable (warning: alternative content ahead) and didn't automatically imply breasts, which is why I didn't choose to primarily market myself as "shemale".

For those who actually remember, my website used to be: Krissytgirl, the Krissy4u - Naughty Amateur Tgirl, and now Krissy4u - Naughty Asian Tgirl. Personally, I don't think the phrase has, or ever will really come into widespread usage because, as someone already noted, it is mostly used by the casual CD/TV crowd when I've come across it. On a business level, yes or course, I would support any efforts to "mainstream" the word since I'm listed on page one of Google for "Asian Tgirl".

As for it being a better word... smart enough to understand what you're doing here and I would suppose that (as has already been done, actually), the posters here will prove the point.

[BellaBellucci]

You didn't answer the questions though?
Where did that word come from?
Could it become a slur?

And a new question, why is "tgirl" better than "tranny" ?

How did it become THE "word" ?

It's because 'tranny' is a dismissive word and one that people have historically used as a slur. 'T-girl' is more technically accurate as it respects a person's identity as female, utilizing the word 'girl.' However, I do agree with Sammi that, with my 35th birthday on Thursday, it's still sort of belittling to some of us older women... but then porn is all about youthfulness and beauty, right? So under that circumstance, I can live with it.

My preferred term in my personal life is simply 'woman,' but if a distinction must absolutely be made between me and a genetic female, I'll also gladly accept 'trans woman' or 'TS.'

~BB~

[BellaBellucci]

Oh, and I also agree that there is a conflict in using 'tgirl' due to its appropriation by the CD/TV community, but that's really just another reason to take it back. It doesn't belong to them. They're not girls.

~BB~

[GroobyKrissy]

Oh, and I also agree that there is a conflict in using 'tgirl' due to its appropriation by the CD/TV community, but that's really just another reason to take it back. It doesn't belong to them. They're not girls.

~BB~

Yeah, I thought you would walk back your earlier post sooner or later.

"appropriation" ??? "take it back"??? "belong"???

So now we're saying that people OWN words?

You know, the CD/TV crowd are, largely, NOT girls but even so... most that I've come across are more "lady-like" than you are or will ever be.

[dderek123]

http://i.imgur.com/0PEpO.jpg

[BellaBellucci]

Yeah, I thought you would walk back your earlier post sooner or later.

"appropriation" ??? "take it back"??? "belong"???

So now we're saying that people OWN words?

You know, the CD/TV crowd are, largely, NOT girls but even so... most that I've come across are more "lady-like" than you are or will ever be.

I haven't 'walked back' since this is a different thread, but OK.

And yes. Groups of people can own words. Black people call each other the n-word all the time, but I DARE you to call them that.

~BB~

[BellaBellucci]

And you know, I was going to ignore the 'ladylike' comment until I realized that if you believe a woman should always be docile and submissive... you might be a misogynist.

~BB~

[GroobyKrissy]

And you know, I was going to ignore the 'ladylike' comment until I realized that if you believe a woman should always be docile and submissive... you might be a misogynist.

~BB~

Yes, that's exactly what I was saying. You are totally right. All the time. Without fail.

Look. For those reading this. I'll provide you with a little comic relief.

Do you want to know what exactly was going through Bella's mind when she saw and read this thread? As follows...

Oh.My.God. I've done it. I've actually done it. Steven is actually considering doing away with the word "Tranny" and using another word!

*this said as Bella gives herself a big bear-hug*

OMG.
See, I am relevant.
See, I was right.
See, everyone does listen to me.
See, I am powerful.
See, I am awesome.

OMG OMG OMG.. what should I do now? I mean, I don't want to sound too eager... I'm supposed to wait 3 days, right? 2 days? OMG, I'm so excited. Just think of the credit I can take for this once this campaign to use the word "Tgirl" starts! I'll be famous (well, more famous than I am already).

OMG
OMG
OMG... What do I do??

Well, at the very least, I should say I agree. But of course, I can't sound too excited about it or it will give me away. I'll just put, "yes"... sounds nice and sincere, right?

OMGOMGOMGOGOMGOMGOGMOGOMG. OH MY GOD! I am awesome!

Then... later on, recognizing she gave an unequivocal "yes" to using the term "Tgirl" without actually thinking it out... has to walk it back.

That folks, is the mind of Bella Bellucci for you. It isn't hard to figure out.

[BellaBellucci]

I don't expect for a second that Steven will change a damn thing, so there goes your entire argument. In fact, I think the entire discussion is a lark to increase post counts. The only reason I'm biting is because it's an important conversation, regardless of why it's being had.

~BB~

[GroobySteven]

I don't expect for a second that Steven will change a damn thing, so there goes your entire argument. In fact, I think the entire discussion is a lark to increase post counts. The only reason I'm biting is because it's an important conversation, regardless of why it's being had.

~BB~

What do you want me to change?

[GroobyKrissy]

I haven't 'walked back' since this is a different thread, but OK.

And yes. Groups of people can own words. Black people call each other the n-word all the time, but I DARE you to call them that.

~BB~

You've a core misunderstanding here.

Nobody OWNS a word. I choose not to use the N-word because I RESPECT (something you know nothing about) Black people enough to realize it carries with it a history of PROVABLE violence, oppression, and literal slavery. I might add, if you're doing it (not using the word) out of fear of a beat-down, your motives are incorrect since fear is a motivator based on punishment or pain and not respect.

NOT choosing to use a word out of respect isn't giving up "ownership" of it. It is simply respecting the wishes and desires of the individuals involved.

[BellaBellucci]

Oh, and you still haven't answered any of my very legitimate criticisms of you. I'm not impressed by your attempts at distraction.

~BB~

[BellaBellucci]

What do you want me to change?

Nothing.

Billy Joel - Just The Way You Are - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJWM5FmZyqU)

~BB~

[GroobySteven]

Nothing.

~BB~

Then why make a comment about "not expecting me to change anything"?
I don't understand - what am I doing now that's a problem - and what would you have me change?

[GroobyKrissy]

Oh, and you still haven't answered any of my very legitimate criticisms of you. I'm not impressed by your attempts at distraction.

~BB~

If this is directed at me. List your "legitimate criticisms" and I'll address them point by point in detail. Unlike you, I'm not afraid at all of discussion. In point of fact, it is you who dodge incessantly, throwing back insults because you have no logical grounds on which to base an argument and sending messages in PM because you're a coward to say them out loud, right here, right now. If you let the public know who you really were... this is why you're a coward.

Look we know where this is going so I'll save you the trouble.

Bella's next post (if this was indeed directed towards me):

I'm not going to list them. You're too stoopid to figure it out. You haven't answered anything and you drone on and on. I'm smart. You're not. You're wasting my time and I've got a business to run. I have a worldwide brand and I don't have the time to sit and argue with silly crossdressers.

I'm brave. Poor me... everyone bullies and picks on me. I'm just being an independent woman and standing strong against all this oppression being ladled upon me. Nobody understands what I go through every day. Being me is hard.

OK, I took some poetic license with the second part. Pretty much the first part though.

[BellaBellucci]

You've a core misunderstanding here.

Nobody OWNS a word. I choose not to use the N-word because I RESPECT (something you know nothing about) Black people enough to realize it carries with it a history of PROVABLE violence, oppression, and literal slavery. I might add, if you're doing it (not using the word) out of fear of a beat-down, your motives are incorrect since fear is a motivator based on punishment or pain and not respect.

NOT choosing to use a word out of respect isn't giving up "ownership" of it. It is simply respecting the wishes and desires of the individuals involved.

So the n-word is not OK, but 'tranny' is? Even though the only difference between the two groups is a HISTORY (not a current condition) of physical slavery on the part of blacks (even as many argue that ANY oppression is slavery - especially that suffered by trans women), while very often IN OUR CURRENT DAY AND AGE trans women are also violently beaten by people utilizing words of hate simply because they're different.

Wow. Double-standard, much?!

Look, it's obvious to me why you like the word so much. As a crossdresser, the word 'tranny' replacing the word 'man' is a sort-of upgrade for you. But from my perspective as a woman who lives in the heteronormative world, it's a downgrade. Your identity is trans, and despite my history of transition, mine is not. I'm not trying to disrespect you for that, but you would disrespect me because I'm not as queer as you or others?

And people wonder why there are so many trans-separatists out there.

~BB~

[BellaBellucci]

sending messages in PM because you're a coward to say them out loud, right here, right now.

THAT'S what the coward thing was about? You're totally underthinking this. Publically saying what I said to you in private would have been a board rule violation. I'm not falling for that trap. Cowardice has NOTHING to do with it. Everyone here knows I can't stand you. So what? :confused:

~BB~

[GroobyKrissy]

So the n-word is not OK, but 'tranny' is? Even though the only difference between the two groups is a HISTORY (not a current condition) of physical slavery on the part of blacks (even as many argue that ANY oppression is slavery - especially that suffered by trans women), while very often IN OUR CURRENT DAY AND AGE trans women are also violently beaten by people utilizing words of hate simply because they're different.

Wow. Double-standard, much?!

Look, it's obvious to me why you like the word so much. As a crossdresser, the word 'tranny' replacing the word 'man' is a sort-of upgrade for you. But from my perspective as a woman who lives in the heteronormative world, it's a downgrade. Your identity is trans, and despite my history of transition, mine is not. I'm not trying to disrespect you for that, but you would disrespect me because I'm not as queer as you or others?

And people wonder why there are so many trans-separatists out there.

~BB~

PROVABLE history... PROVABLE.

I asked you in the other thread... PROVE THE DIRECT CORRELATION. You have yet to do so and cited some stupid excuse as to why you could not.

A video of the "Precious" (I'm not going to attempt spelling her name from memory!) girl hardly proves your point.

So, you say your legitimate criticisms aren't being answered. I've already stated I will answer ALL things you list as criticism point by point.

You answer this one:

PROVE there is a DIRECT CORRELATION (that is, "cause and effect" relationship) between usage of the word "Tranny" and the things you cited (murder, suicide, homelessness, poverty, etc. etc.).

I'm waiting.

[BellaBellucci]

Then why make a comment about "not expecting me to change anything"?
I don't understand - what am I doing now that's a problem - and what would you have me change?

Well, I'd like you to transition the niche towards using less controversial terminology, but I don't expect you to. But really Krissy is the one who brought it up in claiming that I see this as some kind of win/lose game. Talk to her.

~BB~

[GroobyKrissy]

THAT'S what the coward thing was about? You're totally underthinking this. Publically saying what I said to you in private would have been a board rule violation. I'm not falling for that trap. Cowardice has NOTHING to do with it. Everyone here knows I can't stand you. So what? :confused:

~BB~

It is sheer and utter cowardice to PM someone and say the things you say when you won't say them publicly. I think ANYONE will agree to that.

It is even more so when you admit readily that you only do it privately because you want to keep yourself from being banned here.

It is the very definition of the word "cowardly".

[dderek123]

http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Eating-Popcorn-Soda.gif

[BellaBellucci]

PROVABLE history... PROVABLE.

I asked you in the other thread... PROVE THE DIRECT CORRELATION. You have yet to do so and cited some stupid excuse as to why you could not.

A video of the "Precious" (I'm not going to attempt spelling her name from memory!) girl hardly proves your point.

So, you say your legitimate criticisms aren't being answered. I've already stated I will answer ALL things you list as criticism point by point.

You answer this one:

PROVE there is a DIRECT CORRELATION (that is, "cause and effect" relationship) between usage of the word "Tranny" and the things you cited (murder, suicide, homelessness, poverty, etc. etc.).

I'm waiting.

I'm not going to bog this down with a million sources and grant you your semantic (read: distractive) argument, but one quick jaunt over to the Transgender Law Center should give you all the numbers you need to prove the COMMON KNOWLEDGE that trans people are violently oppressed.

http://www.transgenderlaw.org/resources/transfactsheet.pdf

Of course, you wouldn't know anything about it because you're not actually trans. Again, how's that male privilege working out for you?

~BB~

[BellaBellucci]

It is sheer and utter cowardice to PM someone and say the things you say when you won't say them publicly. I think ANYONE will agree to that.

It is even more so when you admit readily that you only do it privately because you want to keep yourself from being banned here.

It is the very definition of the word "cowardly".

So now you think I'm dumb enough to let you taunt me into doing something to have action taken against me? Wow, for someone who's such a bully, you are REALLY bad at it! :lol:

Bye, Felicia. I'm done with you. Twist my words all you like. Those who really care will read what I actually wrote.

~BB~

[GroobyKrissy]

Well, I'd like you to transition the niche towards using less controversial terminology, but I don't expect you to. But really Krissy is the one who brought it up in claiming that I see this as some kind of win/lose game. Talk to her.

~BB~

Do you really believe anyone falls for this crap that you let spill from your mouth?

Do you so easily forget what you have written? "I win" - "I'm right" - "You're wrong" - I could EASILY pull up probably at least 50 instances where you have stated in some form or another that you see ALL arguments you are a part of as win/lose game. Maybe you do have some form of short-term amnesia or something... possibly get that looked into at your next doctor's visit.

Just let me know when you want me to start pulling those up.

[GroobyKrissy]

I'm not going to bog this down with a million sources and grant you your semantic (read: distractive) argument, but one quick jaunt over to the Transgender Law Center should give you all the number you need to prove the COMMON KNOWLEDGE that trans people are violently oppressed.

http://www.transgenderlaw.org/resources/transfactsheet.pdf

Of course, you wouldn't know that because you're not actually trans. Again, how's that male privilege working out for you?

~BB~

OK, again with the put-downs. So, you're in essence saying that you can't back up what you say and all you have is to put someone else down.

AGAIN... we're discussing the specific usage of the word "TRANNY" in relation to CRIMES COMMITTED (this was your original beef... just to remind you, you know... because of the short term amnesia thing).

AGAIN... PROVE A DIRECT RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE USAGE OF THE WORD "TRANNY" and MURDER, SUICIDE, POVERTY, HOMELESSNESS, and dying puppies. (Ok, I'll give you the last one for free.)

We're not discussing the fact that Transgender people suffer more / less hate crimes, which is what your link addresses.

And WHO dodges the actual question?

[GroobySteven]

Well, I'd like you to transition the niche towards using less controversial terminology, but I don't expect you to. But really Krissy is the one who brought it up in claiming that I see this as some kind of win/lose game. Talk to her.

~BB~


Like Tgirls?
Grooby has done more to propagate the usage of this word more than any other one source/company/group that I know. Although we didn't coin the term, we were one of the very first websites to start using it and have spent $1000's branding the word and using it as a word for Transsexuals.

I'd suggest we wouldn't be having this discussion about the word "tgirls" - if this adult company, hadn't started using it in so many of it's titles, promotions and properties.

Now ... what EXACTLY has your contribution been - to pretty much, anything, other than poison and spite?

[BellaBellucci]

Like Tgirls?
Grooby has done more to propagate the usage of this word more than any other one source/company/group that I know. Although we didn't coin the term, we were one of the very first websites to start using it and have spent $1000's branding the word and using it as a word for Transsexuals.

I'd suggest we wouldn't be having this discussion about the word "tgirls" - if this adult company, hadn't started using it in so many of it's titles, promotions and properties.

Now ... what EXACTLY has your contribution been - to pretty much, anything, other than poison and spite?

Yeah, OK. First of all, there are lots of sites out there changing their terms. Eros and most cam sites quickly come to mind. So while I'm glad help, and I appreciate your effort, you're not alone... and you're not some kind of hero.

As to my contribution, I have been railing against the words 'tranny' and 'shemale' for so long that people don't even remember that they're a huge part of the reason that you and I personally have had issues that never seem to get resolved, and that again, it adversely affected my career.

You want to talk about walking the walk? Couple that with the fact that my site uses NONE of the questionable terms and is one of VERY few that can say that, and I think the case could be made that I made one of the first and certainly the most self-sacrificial contributions to this cause.

If you want to hate me for opposing your marketing plan, that's fine, but you at least owe me the respect of being honest about it.

~BB~

[GroobyKrissy]

So now you think I'm dumb enough to let you taunt me into doing something to have action taken against me? Wow, for someone who's such a bully, you are REALLY bad at it! :lol:

Bye, Felicia. I'm done with you. Twist my words all you like. Those who really care will read what I actually wrote.

~BB~

I'm not taunting you. I'm not trying to goad you into getting yourself banned. In fact, I have stated publicly on this board on more than one occasion, I am RARELY in favor of censoring and / or banning anybody from a public forum for any reason. PROVABLE - I've said it. If you were to be banned, for stating an opinion, I would readily defend your right to be here, as I've done in the past with others. That being said, I don't own the board and the rules aren't mind to enforce.

I'm exposing your cowardice. You put up this big front... like you're some behemoth of logic and clarity. You're a fraud - intellectually.

If you argue your points with logic, there is absolutely NO REASON to send a PM to somebody since your public discourse will do the talking for you. I am consistent in what I say, logical in the way I state it, and not afraid to defend or argue my points. I have no need of a PM system because I'm not afraid of anything I've said. You clearly are.

[Tapatio]

"Tgirl" sounds childish, to me.

[BellaBellucci]

Oh, and another thing Steven: accusing people of being 'vile' and 'poison' and whatever other hyperbolic black-and-white insults you sling at people simply because they disagree with you is almost dogmatic in nature. You are not god, and everyone who opposes you is not the devil. Get a grip.

~BB~

[GroobyKrissy]

Yeah, OK. First of all, there are lots of sites out there changing their terms. Eros and most cam sites quickly come to mind. So while I'm glad help, and I appreciate your effort, you're not alone... and you're not some kind of hero.

As to my contribution, I have been railing against the words 'tranny' and 'shemale' for so long that people don't even remember that they're a huge part of the reason that you and I personally have had issues that never seem to get resolved, and that again, it adversely affected my career.

You want to talk about walking the walk? Couple that with the fact that my site uses NONE of the questionable terms and is one of VERY few that can say that, and I think the case could be made that I made one of the first and certainly the most self-sacrificial contributions to this cause.

If you want to hate me for opposing your marketing plan, that's fine, but you at least owe me the respect of being honest about it.

~BB~

And yet you've no problems using the terms yourself on YOUR PERSONALLY BRANDED blog... marketing the material...? Etc. Etc.

Enough said. Why don't you start being honest?

[GroobySteven]

Yeah, OK. First of all, there are lots of sites out there changing their terms. Eros and most cam sites quickly come to mind. So while I'm glad help, and I appreciate your effort, you're not alone... and you're not some kind of hero.


We WERE pretty much alone - and WE ARE the ones those cam sites, dating sites, etc. come to for advice on the terms. We do it all the time. I'm not a hero - I'm doing what we've always done, which is promote Tgirls positively



As to my contribution, I have been railing against the words 'tranny' and 'shemale' for so long that people don't even remember that they're a huge part of the reason that you and I personally have had issues that never seem to get resolved, and that again, it adversely affected my career.

No you didn't - you never railed against anything other than snide remarks and failing at every mission statement you've had. You never had a career to be affected, get that out of your fantasies.




You want to talk about walking the walk? Couple that with the fact that my site uses NONE of the questionable terms and is one of VERY few that can say that, and I think the case could be made that I made one of the first and certainly the most self-sacrificial contributions to this cause.

If you want to hate me for opposing your marketing plan, that's fine, but you at least owe me the respect of being honest about it.


a) Your site which is ... months old and reaches maybe a few dozen people? Big fucking deal. You made ZERO contributions to this cause, get that into your head.

b) I don't hate you. I think you have huge paranoia and ego issues that need resolved. I don't know what you are "honest" about - but I have very very little respect for you, other than the soap box here, that you give me to stand on every now and again.

Topic is CLOSED.
Go to sleep Bella, you're not making any coherent sense.

[Prospero]

How about dickchix ? (joking)

Seriously though, why not transsexuals?

[BellaBellucci]

And yet you've no problems using the terms yourself on YOUR PERSONALLY BRANDED blog... marketing the material...? Etc. Etc.

Enough said. Why don't you start being honest?

OMG! Are you fucking blind?! I didn't name the websites or DVDs on which I appeared, but I did write that press release. Notice anything special about it? Go on. Take a look. I'll wait for you to figure it out.

And don't hit me with that crap about how I should have known how the other productions were going to be branded, either. It's a lot harder to make a statement about rebranding transsexual porn when you're not involved in making it. Fucking duh. :lol:

BYE, Felicia!

~BB~

[BellaBellucci]

How about dickchix ? (joking)

Seriously though, why not transsexuals?

^ OMG! A voice of reason!

~BB~

[BellaBellucci]

We WERE pretty much alone - and WE ARE the ones those cam sites, dating sites, etc. come to for advice on the terms. We do it all the time. I'm not a hero - I'm doing what we've always done, which is promote Tgirls positively


No you didn't - you never railed against anything other than snide remarks and failing at every mission statement you've had. You never had a career to be affected, get that out of your fantasies.




a) Your site which is ... months old and reaches maybe a few dozen people? Big fucking deal. You made ZERO contributions to this cause, get that into your head.

b) I don't hate you. I think you have huge paranoia and ego issues that need resolved. I don't know what you are "honest" about - but I have very very little respect for you, other than the soap box here, that you give me to stand on every now and again.

Topic is CLOSED.
Go to sleep Bella, you're not making any coherent sense.

*I* have ego issues?!

You're such a fucking bully. Ugh. :yayo:

~BB~

[dderek123]

How about dickchix ? (joking)

Seriously though, why not transsexuals?

Weenie Women

[GroobySteven]

*I* have ego issues?!

You're such a fucking bully. Ugh. :yayo:

~BB~


Yeah, I am - you can pay for your advertising from now on.

[BellaBellucci]

Yeah, I am - you can pay for your advertising from now on.

So again, you're saying that because you extend the same courtesy to me that you extend to every other girl here, it's OK for you to constantly disrespect me?

Really?! :confused:

~BB~

[GroobyKrissy]

OMG! Are you fucking blind?! I didn't name the websites or DVDs on which I appeared, but I did write that press release. Notice anything special about it? Go on. Take a look. I'll wait for you to figure it out.

And don't hit me with that crap about how I should have known how the other productions were going to be branded, either. It's a lot harder to make a statement about rebranding transsexual porn when you're not involved in making it. Fucking duh. :lol:

BYE, Felicia!

~BB~

Look Bella,

You are the one who just got through making a BFD about how you don't use certain terms on your site. Yet your (again) PERSONALLY BRANDED BLOG has those same terms repeatedly (TrannyFaceSitting - really...?) I'm not hitting you with any crap... looks like there is enough there, sticking, already.

The record speaks for itself. You're a complete and utter hypocrite and anyone with an ounce of reason can see that by the screen capture of your blog. If you truly believed what you said, you would distance yourself from ALL instances of the usage of the word(s) in question, not use them to market yourself unless you enjoy being a de facto tool of oppression by using those words and propagating hate.

You can dodge, pull your smoke and mirrors routine, hurl as many insults as you want... it doesn't change THE FACT that you SAY one thing and DO another. That is the very definition of hypocrisy.

[BellaBellucci]

The record speaks for itself.

Yes, it does. I already explained it twice, but you think repeating a falsehood enough times will somehow make it true. You're no intellectual, but you certainly are a politician. Rovian School, I believe.

~BB~

[GroobyKrissy]

Yes, it does. I already explained it twice, but you think repeating a falsehood enough times will somehow make it true. You're no intellectual, but you certainly are a politician. Rovian School, I believe.

~BB~

Blah. Blah. Blah.

You explained nothing. You gave rather lame excuses for your hypocrisy.

Ounce of reason in your skull = you know Bella is a hypocrite of the worse kind.

Not only saying one thing and doing another but then profiting off of it - yeah... them sure are AFFILIATE links on that there blog of yours. For those of you who don't know, that means that Bella receives a cut of any Membership derived from a signup resulting from that link. Profiting off of using the terms you allegedly hate... wonderful. You should go into arms dealing - you'd maybe succeed in that.

[BellaBellucci]

http://breakups.org/images/gaslight.gif

~BB~

[BellaBellucci]

Blah. Blah. Blah.

You explained nothing. You gave rather lame excuses for your hypocrisy.

Ounce of reason in your skull = you know Bella is a hypocrite of the worse kind.

Not only saying one thing and doing another but then profiting off of it - yeah... them sure are AFFILIATE links on that there blog of yours.

I'm not profiting from listing the DVDs and sites on which I'm featured. It's a courtesy to the producers. And yes, I'm an SMC affiliate. But regardless, what you're really saying is that because I wish some terminology would change, I should make NO profit on transsexual porn AT ALL.

First you wanted to bait me into doing something to get myself banned, and now you want to try to bait me into leaving the niche ENTIRELY?

DAMN you're transparent! :lol:

~BB~

[GroobySteven]

So again, you're saying that because you extend the same courtesy to me that you extend to every other girl here, it's OK for you to constantly disrespect me?

Really?! :confused:

~BB~

You're the only person who lies, schemes, manipulates and attacks me on this forum on a regular basis. So tell me, why am I giving you free advertising? It is a courtesy. I don't disrespect you, you're the one attacking me or my company.
You can't have it both ways.

[BellaBellucci]

I mean, the analogy that keeps coming to mind is that of a person who dislikes the government, so they run for office in the hopes of improving it. Would you fault that person, too? Again, talk about intellectual dishonesty!

~BB~

[BellaBellucci]

You're the only person who lies, schemes, manipulates and attacks me on this forum on a regular basis. So tell me, why am I giving you free advertising? It is a courtesy. I don't disrespect you, you're the one attacking me or my company.
You can't have it both ways.

If you honestly believe that, then maybe we should be having this conversation in private because it's obvious that we each feel disrespected by the other, and it's not exactly fostering cooperation to have it out in public, is it? :confused:

Although I'm sure it doesn't hurt your hit count, so I'll be surprised if you're amenable to making peace.

~BB~

[GroobySteven]

Although I'm sure it doesn't hurt your hit count, so I'll be surprised if you're amenable to making peace.

~BB~

I've told you 1000 times, we're not at war - there is no "peace" to be made, other than if you need to make it with yourself.

[trish]

What do you think.
Is it ok to defer to someone as a tgirl?
Could it become a slur?

Thoughts?

Is this an acceptable word - and would girls be happier with it? Would it be less objectionable to be profited from?Let's just try some things and see how they sound.

Hey boy. Can you direct me to...?
Hey girl. Can you direct me to...?
Hey man. Can you direct me to...?
Hey woman. Can you direct me to...?
Hey Tgirl. Can you direct me to...?
Hey Tranny. Can you direct me to...?
Mr. Can you direct me to...?
Miss. Can you direct me to...?
Ms. Can you direct me to...?
Hey you. Can you direct me to...?
Excuse me, but can you direct me to...?

For myself, I like the last four.

[BellaBellucci]

I've told you 1000 times, we're not at war - there is no "peace" to be made, other than if you need to make it with yourself.

So both of us feeling disrespected? That's not war? You're still in denial. Shall I post the gaslighting meme again?

~BB~

[GroobySteven]

So both of us feeling disrespected? That's not war? You're still in denial. Shall I post the gaslighting meme again?

~BB~

No please, just don't post anything again. Being disrespected consistently off someone doesn't mean I'm in denial or at war. It means you're disrespectful.

[Dino Velvet]

Hey you. Can you direct me to...?


I'm notoriously bad with names. Worked in the night club business for over a decade. Probably named hundreds of people "Hey you". Wasn't as bad as naming this one long-haired busboy Maria Conchita-Alonso though. That was wrong and all the other busboys called him that too singing along with good-natured jefe. I is sorry...

[trish]

You're such a bad boy, Dino. I mean...Sir, you're really bad.

[GroobyKrissy]

I'm not profiting from listing the DVDs and sites on which I'm featured. It's a courtesy to the producers. And yes, I'm an SMC affiliate. But regardless, what you're really saying is that because I wish some terminology would change, I should make NO profit on transsexual porn AT ALL.

First you wanted to bait me into doing something to get myself banned, and now you want to try to bait me into leaving the niche ENTIRELY?

DAMN you're transparent! :lol:

~BB~

You know, you always throw the "You're transparent" line out there like that's a bad thing. You're right... I am transparent and I think that is good. I wish more people, businesses, and politicians were more so. That being said, the reason you're stating I'm transparent is incorrect.

I have never said you shouldn't profit off of porn at all. What I have pointed out is that you're being hypocritical in denigrating those who do perhaps profit from using the term "Tranny" while you do the same thing yourself. You also made a big deal about not using the term on your site itself, while using them to market yourself (when you say, "featured in" or "appearing on" - that is marketing - not a favor to another company) on your personal blog. That is hypocritical.

You offered NO disclaimers stating these now proven facts in any of your arguments, nor have you offered any VALID reasons as to why (an lame excuse is not a valid reason) - I had to go search them out. That is hypocritical and in fact, non-transparent.

If I am anti-killing puppies, I don't rail against it and then go hunt wolves and then sell their skins to make a profit. That is hypocrisy of the worst kind. That is the kind of nonsense you're doing and you need to be called on the carpet for it, and I, among others, have done so.

The way you go about doing things is hurtful at best and damaging at worst and you help no cause but the one swimming about inside your own head when you go about it like this... and I fundamentally disagree with it. That is why I'm vocal in opposition to your ideas, which I see as a cancer rather than a cure.

I've another approach that I'm working on... one that is tolerant, fair, transparent, and helps provide for inclusion between all facets of the TG community. It is something that I've spent a year or two now developing the relationships, marketing the idea, and getting backers for with success. This will be coming soon and I'm putting my money where my mouth is.

[BellaBellucci]

I have never said you shouldn't profit off of porn at all. What I have pointed out is that you're being hypocritical in denigrating those who do perhaps profit from using the term "Tranny" while you do the same thing yourself.

If it's OK for ANYONE to profit off the word (and again... I DON'T - your insistance that I do changes NOTHING), it's a 'tranny.' Last time I checked, I was transsexual. Black people profit from the n-word all the time because it balances out the harm done from it being used by others.

Again, according to you, my options are to accept the term once in a while or not work in the industry at all while all of the 'shameless shemales' make thousands that are then often given to more white men, i.e. plastic surgeons.

I defy you to find ONE instance of my using the words in question outside of the list of sites and DVDs on which I'm featured (that I DIDN'T name) located on my blog. But you won't, because it doesn't exist.

But I've said this repeatedly. You just like the repeat your talking points in the hopes that they'll catch on if you say them often enough. As I pointed out, this is nothing more than a political tactic last used to great success by Karl Rove. He must be your idol or something.

You expressed your opinion. I expressed my facts. Now let it die. It's YOU who hasn't proven a damn thing.

You know something? Just to prove my point, I'm going to remove the list from my site,. Now stop bothering me, dude. Go use your male privilege to harass someone else.

~BB~

[BellaBellucci]

And actually, while we're at it, I think you should stop calling yourself a tgirl. You're not. You're a crossdresser. It's false advertising.

So when can I expect you to 'put your money where your mouth is?'

~BB~

[GroobySteven]

And actually, while we're at it, I think you should stop calling yourself a tgirl. You're not. You're a crossdresser. It's false advertising.

So when can I expect you to 'put your money where your mouth is?'

~BB~

Tgirl DOESN'T necessarily mean transsexual.
You're a nasty piece of work Bella.

[BellaBellucci]

Tgirl DOESN'T necessarily mean transsexual.
You're a nasty piece of work Bella.

Not anymore it doesn't. But it should. This is one of those terms that was appropriated by men in dresses. For you to perpetuate the intentional conflation of terminology for profit is what's nasty.

The fans deserve honesty in marketing.

~BB~

PS: Way to deflect, there, mon capitan. Is Krissy going to change their branding or not?

[BellaBellucci]

No please, just don't post anything again. Being disrespected consistently off someone doesn't mean I'm in denial or at war. It means you're disrespectful.

Translation: you think you can boss and bully people around. You can disrespect them, but they aren't allowed to defend themselves. Got it. Double-standard understood.

~BB~

[zerrrr]

Bella,

You are certainly a passionate woman about many topics which is a very good thing. The Transgendered area (yes I am lumping CD/TV/TS all in one group because frankly there are too many labels) needs someone with your fire and passion because as Wendy said a few days ago 'after 15 years in porn you get desensitized.'

The Transgendered area can be looked at as an umbrella with the T in LGBT at the top. Under that T are the spokes which hold the fabric of the umbrella in place. Be it Transsexual, Crossdresser, Transvestite, and others.

Your anger and rage (yes it is both) is unfocused. You are attacking everyone for minor details when you should turn that anger and rage into helping others.

Instead of being so angry at others focus yourself on fixing the problems. Angrily responding to every post that you disagree with only continues to inflame the situation.

You are better than that. Focus your anger on fixing a problem rather than attacking others. The less you argue and the more you respect the more respect you will get in return.

The Transgendered area needs your passion not your anger.

[BellaBellucci]

Your anger and rage (yes it is both) is unfocused. You are attacking everyone for minor details when you should turn that anger and rage into helping others.

I think you need to go back and read the thread again as well as realize that Steven and Krissy have a history of attacking me for nothing more than voicing my opinion, which they are STILL doing. After all of these years, they're still trying to gaslight my perspective out of existence instead of discussing it rationally. I haven't attacked ONE person who hasn't attacked me first, but at the same time, why would I want to help anyone if they want to participate in behaviors that hurt me and people like me. I could care less about CDs or TVs because they could care less about me and mine, appropriating our identities and using slurs to sensationally promote the very natural activity of sex. I respect everyone's right to do as they wish, but that's as far as it goes. I don't have to condone it and I certainly won't stick my neck out for it.


Instead of being so angry at others focus yourself on fixing the problems. Angrily responding to every post that you disagree with only continues to inflame the situation.

What do you think I'm doing? I'm taking those in power to task, and clearly, if they have to perpetually resort to attacking me personally instead of debating the merits, they have no legitimate reasoning for their actions outside of their own selfish desires. If you think that challenging that paradigm doesn't have an effect on society, then I guess you don't know much about world history.


You are better than that. Focus your anger on fixing a problem rather than attacking others. The less you argue and the more you respect the more respect you will get in return.

Excuse me, but I'm the weaker party here, and I'm still fighting. Steven practically runs the entire niche, and Krissy is his sycophant who will do ANYTHING to find an excuse to oppose me on something; critical, objective thinking be damned. I'm overpowered and outnumbered and yet I'm still fighting for that in which I believe, and frankly, I'm offended that you would tell the victim of such a situation to be more respectful.

Furthermore, your opinion is uneducated if you've never lived the life of a transsexual, or even know the backstory that got us all to where we are with each other today. Nobody has ever won freedom by appealing to the morality of their captors, so if I must fight fire with fire, then so be it.


The Transgendered area needs your passion not your anger.

I tried passion. I got attacked mercilessly for it from the first day I ever posted here. That said, I don't give a fuck about the 'transgendered area,' because transsexuals, contrary to another of your uneducated opinions, don't need CD/TV people for advancement. If anything, they're an EPIC liability to the cause of mainstreaming.

~BB~

[BellaBellucci]

'I respect everyone's right to do as they wish, but that's as far as it goes.'

Rephrase: I respect everyone's right to do as they wish, but that's as far as it goes... as long as it doesn't hurt others.

~BB~

[GroobyKrissy]

And actually, while we're at it, I think you should stop calling yourself a tgirl. You're not. You're a crossdresser. It's false advertising.

So when can I expect you to 'put your money where your mouth is?'

~BB~

Again... you THINK you're hurting me by throwing this word around like it is an insult (and your word game referenced in a previous post is stupid - you intended it as an insult). You are not... and quite frankly, it is not. Like I've already stated, I am secure in the individual PERSON I am and content enough to live within the confines that MY life has with it right now.

From the business perspective (I'll address the personal nature of your attack in a completely new thread following), in the 8+ years that I have run my site using the term "Tgirl", do you know how many complaints I have had from a former Member or someone saying it is false advertising and wanting a refund? NONE.

In the 8+ years that I have run my site using the term "Tgirl", do you know how many negative comments, etc. I have received on my blog, etc. saying that I'm "just a crossdresser" ? TWO (and yes, i keep track of these things).The subject has almost never even been brought up by men at all actually. Instead, I find those who should be "tolerant" towards an actual POSITIVE representative of the industry, the TG community at large, and just as a person in general, to be the most intolerant - yourself, and other Transsexuals like you, who for some reason have this chip on your shoulder towards anyone who doesn't fit into your idea of what "Transsexualism" is.

YOU ARE THE INTOLERANT ONE AND THE BIGOT HERE - AWAKEN TO THAT FACT.

[BellaBellucci]

Again... you THINK you're hurting me by throwing this word around like it is an insult (and your word game referenced in a previous post is stupid - you intended it as an insult). You are not... and quite frankly, it is not. Like I've already stated, I am secure in the individual PERSON I am and content enough to live within the confines that MY life has with it right now.

From the business perspective (I'll address the personal nature of your attack in a completely new thread following), in the 8+ years that I have run my site using the term "Tgirl", do you know how many complaints I have had from a former Member or someone saying it is false advertising and wanting a refund? NONE.

In the 8+ years that I have run my site using the term "Tgirl", do you know how many negative comments, etc. I have received on my blog, etc. saying that I'm "just a crossdresser" ? TWO (and yes, i keep track of these things).The subject has almost never even been brought up by men at all actually. Instead, I find those who should be "tolerant" towards an actual POSITIVE representative of the industry, the TG community at large, and just as a person in general, to be the most intolerant - yourself, and other Transsexuals like you, who for some reason have this chip on your shoulder towards anyone who doesn't fit into your idea of what "Transsexualism" is.

YOU ARE THE INTOLERANT ONE AND THE BIGOT HERE - AWAKEN TO THAT FACT.

Round and round and round we go...

I'm a woman. You're not. If that hurts you, then maybe you should transition instead of appropriating terms that don't belong to you.

Bye Felicia.

~BB~

[GroobyKrissy]

Pointed and direct questions for Bella.

Answer here and now - directly without using any outside links, quotes, or etc. In other words, think about what you're going to write and say it in your own words because you will be held accountable to it.

I'm so sick and tired of people talking about issues they never, themselves, define in writing. So, stop sidestepping, dodging, and let's have this out once and for all.

What is a "Transsexual" ?

If not at birth, when does one become a "Transsexual" ?

Can you "become", by altering your body, "Transsexual" ?

What is the difference between being Transgender and being Transsexual?

Look, I know you're too much of a coward to answer these questions directly because I think you have just enough sanity left to realize you are an utter fraud when it comes to defining and understanding the terms yourself, besides being able to repost memes and quote academics who have viewpoints that support your thought processes.

But, I'm giving you this chance. Answer the above questions... clearly and directly, one-by-one. Take as much time as you'd like and use as much space as you'd like.

[BellaBellucci]

Pointed and direct questions for Bella.

Answer here and now - directly without using any outside links, quotes, or etc.

Funny. A few pages back you were demanding empirical evidence. Once a hypocrite, always a hypocrite.


What is a "Transsexual" ?

If not at birth, when does one become a "Transsexual" ?

Can you "become", by altering your body, "Transsexual" ?

What is the difference between being Transgender and being Transsexual?

Biological, legal, and social permanence in the changes of one's gender expression as well as a loss of male privilege. A 'part-timer' has none of those.


Look, I know you're too much of a coward to answer these questions directly

Pretty sure I just did. The name calling is unnecessary, especially considering that it's my LACK of cowardice and propensity for saying whatever I'm thinking sans filter that always seems to get me into trouble.

Ironic, much?

YOU'RE the coward. You're afraid to give up your male life to transition, but yet you still demand the same treatment and respect as a woman that a transsexual receives. That's kind of like saying, 'I took a few courses in college, so I deserve the respect that a PhD receives.' Well, you don't. Such respect is EARNED, not given willy nilly.

~BB~

[bluesoul]

I prefer Tgirl as well...and I consider it to be short for Transgender girl.

and i consider "tranny" short for transsexual

[nysprod]

Education: It seems like using "trans" is acceptable as in trans woman or trans girl...and I like the word transfeminine rather than tranny or Tgirl...but then again I'm just a dude as Miranda says so what do i know.

http://transstudent.org/info5.jpghttp://transstudent.org/gender101.jpghttp://transstudent.org/infographic4small.jpg

[BellaBellucci]

'Transition: the process of changing one's gender expression to match their gender identity.' This implies permanence. What permanent changes has Krissy made?

The answer is none.

I have NOTHING against CD's. I have plenty against CD's who want people to think they're transsexual.

I'd also argue that SRS does indeed change one's sex. A pre-op transwoman on hormones is gender female and sex mixed. A post-op is gender female, sex female. A CD is gender male, sex male, with the occasional inclination to dress as the opposite sex and play pretend.

~BB~

[nysprod]

'Transition: the process of changing one's gender expression to match their gender identity.' This implies permanence. What permanent changes has Krissy made?

The answer is none.

I have NOTHING against CD's. I have plenty against CD's who want people to think they're transsexual.

I'd also argue that SRS does indeed change one's sex. A pre-op transwoman on hormones is gender female and sex mixed. A post-op is gender female, sex female. A CD is gender male, sex male, with the occasional inclination to dress as the opposite sex and play pretend.

~BB~

It implies nothing...Krissy is presenting herself as she chooses...she's not trying to make people think anything of the sort.

[BellaBellucci]

It implies nothing...Krissy is presenting herself as she chooses...she's not trying to make people think anything of the sort.

Oh? Then why does this person get so butthurt when I point out that they're a CD? They ARE a CD! If they're so proud, they shouldn't have to demand the same consideration of womanhood that a transsexual should receive. They should just say, 'yeah, I'm a man who likes to wear women's clothes and I don't care what you think about it.' :confused:

~BB~

[nysprod]

Oh? Then why does this person get so butthurt when I point out that they're a CD? They ARE a CD! If they're so proud, the shouldn't have to demand the same consideration of their womanhood that a transsexual should receive. :confused:

~BB~

You know damn well you meant to attack and slur Krissy so stop with the bullshit.

[BellaBellucci]

You know damn well you meant to slur Krissy so stop with the bullshit.

Absolutely wrong. I've made my views on CD's QUITE clear. I respect their right to be what they are. I don't respect their opinion that I should treat them as if they're something else.

~BB~

[nysprod]

Absolutely wrong. I've made my views on CD's QUITE clear. I respect their right to be what they are. I don't respect their opinion that I should treat them as if they're something else.

~BB~

Nah, you used it as a form of attack...all that dude shit you used...the context was clearly meant to demean.

And it isn't up to you to be the arbiter of who someone is and how they want to present themselves.

[BellaBellucci]

Nah, you used it as a form of attack...all that dude shit you used...the context was clearly meant to demean.

And it isn't up to you to be the arbiter of who someone is and how they want to present themselves.

I only said 'dude' when Krissy was actively genderfucking. Again, Krissy. Is not. A woman. And if you continue to defend this person, then you sir, are gay as a picnic basket. There's nothing wrong with that unless you're hiding in the closet. Just admit it. It's OK to be gay.

And it's not up to Krissy to be the arbiter of when a CD should appropriate the terminology and gender roles of transsexuals.

~BB~

[nysprod]

I only said 'dude' when Krissy was actively genderfucking. Again, Krissy. Is not. A woman. And if you continue to defend this person, then you sir, are gay as a picnic basket. There's nothing wrong with that unless you're hiding in the closet. Just admit it. It's OK to be gay.

And it's not up to Krissy to be the arbiter of when a CD should appropriate the terminology and gender roles of transsexuals.

~BB~

I have no intention of sinking into the morass of name calling...but just let it be known that by your context your intention was to cut as deeply as possible.

I mean, come on now, you just implied that you wished that she wanted to commit suicide in the other thread!

[BellaBellucci]

I have no intention of sinking into the morass of name calling...but just let it be known that by your context your intention was to cut as deeply as possible.

I mean, come on now, you just implied that you wished that she wanted to commit suicide in the other thread!

I didn't call you a name. I made an honest psychological analysis. If you feel the need to defend CDs so fervently to the detriment of transsexuals, then you must be dependent upon your illusion that they are female to justify your attraction. It's pretty simple, actually.

And I implied NO such thing. I just want her to leave the board. I wouldn't wish death on anybody. YOU made an inference that wasn't there, so sod off!

~BB~

[nysprod]

I didn't call you a name. I made an honest psychological analysis. If you feel the need to defend CDs so fervently to the detriment of transsexuals, then you must be dependent upon your illusion that they are female to justify your attraction. It's pretty simple, actually.

And I implied NO such thing. I just want her to leave the board. I wouldn't wish death on anybody. YOU made an inference that wasn't there, so sod off!

~BB~

Right..."gay as a picnic basket" is about as much of an honest psychological assessment as you claiming you weren't wishing she would be contemplating suicide.

[BellaBellucci]

Right..."gay as a picnic basket" is about as much of an honest psychological assessment as you claiming you weren't wishing she would be contemplating suicide.

Nice non-sequitur. Really. Very well done!

And you're taking the quote out of context. I told you WHY I believed that about you.

Some of you guys will say anything to avoid facing the fact the you love cock. Not trans women. Cock. And it's common knowledge that CD's can do more with theirs than most transsexuals, so you all want to do the internet white knight thing.

HOW many posts are there on the sissy thread now?! Almost two million?!

~BB~

[transbeastiality]

Now she's a psychologist. :dead:

[zerrrr]

Originally Posted by BellaBellucci
I didn't call you a name. I made an honest psychological analysis. If you feel the need to defend CDs so fervently to the detriment of transsexuals, then you must be dependent upon your illusion that they are female to justify your attraction. It's pretty simple, actually.

And I implied NO such thing. I just want her to leave the board. I wouldn't wish death on anybody. YOU made an inference that wasn't there, so sod off!

~BB~

I have a better idea. Why don't you leave the board? You spend so much time here fighting that could be better served taking care of your kid (s).

Seriously, shouldn't your time be better spent being a mom than bullying other people on message boards?

Or are you that sort of trash.

I think that moms should take offense that you use that word because you are not a mom.

[BellaBellucci]

Now she's a psychologist. :dead:

I don't have to be. I'm a trans woman. I see it ALL the time. What are your qualifications to speak on this topic exactly?

Oh, and by the way: bestiality*.

~BB~

[BellaBellucci]

Originally Posted by BellaBellucci
I didn't call you a name. I made an honest psychological analysis. If you feel the need to defend CDs so fervently to the detriment of transsexuals, then you must be dependent upon your illusion that they are female to justify your attraction. It's pretty simple, actually.

And I implied NO such thing. I just want her to leave the board. I wouldn't wish death on anybody. YOU made an inference that wasn't there, so sod off!

~BB~

I have a better idea. Why don't you leave the board? You spend so much time here fighting that could be better served taking care of your kid (s).

Seriously, shouldn't your time be better spent being a mom than bullying other people on message boards?

Or are you that sort of trash.

I think that moms should take offense that you use that word because you are not a mom.

My son isn't here right now.

Dick. :fu:

~BB~

[transbeastiality]

I don't have to be. I'm a trans woman. I see it ALL the time. What are your qualifications to speak on this topic exactly?

Oh, and by the way: bestiality*.

~BB~


Who was it, just a little while ago, that compared somebody to person who takes a few courses in college yet takes full credit for a PhD.? :slimer

[nysprod]

Nice non-sequitur. Really. Very well done!

And you're taking the quote out of context. I told you WHY I believed that about you.

Some of you guys will say anything to avoid facing the fact the you love cock. Not trans women. Cock. And it's common knowledge that CD's can do more with theirs than most transsexuals, so you all want to do the internet white knight thing.

HOW many posts are there on the sissy thread now?! Almost two million?!

~BB~

Let us not digress into that useless old babble but rather stay on on the subject at hand, which is that you, Bella, wished that another human being was contemplating suicide.

[BellaBellucci]

Who was it, just a little while ago, that compared somebody to person who takes a few courses in college yet takes full credit for a PhD.? :slimer

You haven't answered the question. I don't need a PhD to be more qualified than you to speak on the topic. I only need to be trans. What's YOUR qualification?


Let us not digress into that useless old babble but rather stay on on the subject at hand, which is you you, Bella, wished that another human being was contemplating suicide.

Yeah. Still not even remotely what I said.

~BB~

[zerrrr]

Originally Posted by BellaBellucci
I don't have to be. I'm a trans woman. I see it ALL the time. What are your qualifications to speak on this topic exactly?

Oh, and by the way: bestiality*.

~BB~

Honestly, you using the word woman to describe yourself is an insult to women around the world.

Same goes for the word mom. You insult mothers by everywhere by using the term mom.

Go whine on iFriends about how you were made fun of by the people here because you could not bully someone off the board.

[transbeastiality]

Right...... because women psychologists only treat women and life experience is all they need to practice. Fuck medical school! Really hoping to read more of your "honest psychological analyses". Hysterical.

[BellaBellucci]

Originally Posted by BellaBellucci
I don't have to be. I'm a trans woman. I see it ALL the time. What are your qualifications to speak on this topic exactly?

Oh, and by the way: bestiality*.

~BB~

Honestly, you using the word woman to describe yourself is an insult to women around the world.

Same goes for the word mom. You insult mothers by everywhere by using the term mom.

Go whine on iFriends about how you were made fun of by the people here because you could not bully someone off the board.

Dude? Seriously? I'd rather not even respond to you, but the things say are SO ridiculous and sensational that I can't leave them unanswered. That said, by my count, Steven, Krissy, NysProd, and you are all attempting to bully me for refusing to be labeled a 'tranny' while crossdressers and their cognitively dissonant sycophants defend the word's use due to their own appropriation of it... and by resorting to ad hominems.

By my count, that's four against one, none of you are arguing the merits, and I'm not demanding anything other than to be treated with respect in terminology and practice, and that people accept the unqualified FACT that a crossdresser is not a transsexual.

So... four against one and you're fighting dirty, but yeah, I'm the bully! ROFL! OMG, that shit is HYSTERICAL! :rolleyes:

For those who missed it ealier:

http://breakups.org/images/gaslight.gif

~BB~

[BellaBellucci]

Right...... because women psychologists only treat women and life experience is all they need to practice. Fuck medical school! Really hoping to read more of your "honest psychological analyses". Hysterical.

I never claimed to be a PhD, but I do know a little about psychology (the two are not mutually exclusive). Regardless, I merely stated an observation for which the proof is all over this board.

Again, how many posts in the sissy thread?

Oh, and I forget to mention you in the 'bully post.' Make that FIVE against one.

~BB~

[transbeastiality]

That's right, it's the entire world against you. Have you ever stopped to think that maybe it's not the world, maybe it really is you? That perhaps you have a terrible attitude and a horrible personality? I haven't been on here very long but I picked up on this rather quickly. Like walking into a room and stepping on a shovel, *whack*. I'd advise you the ol' proverbial long look in the mirror but as I understand it, hobgoblins don't cast reflections.

[BellaBellucci]

That's right, it's the entire world against you. Have you ever stopped to think that maybe it's not the world, maybe it really is you? That perhaps you have a terrible attitude and a horrible personality? I haven't been on here very long but I picked up on this rather quickly. Like walking into a room and stepping on a shovel, *whack*. I'd advise you the ol' proverbial long look in the mirror but as I understand it, hobgoblins don't cast reflections.

What do you know? You have FOUR posts here.

Ignoring you now.

~BB~

[transbeastiality]

What do you know? You have FOUR posts here.

Ignoring you now.

~BB~

Checkmate in 4. Amateur.

[zerrrr]

I bet she will not ignore the people she wants to bully.

[GroobyKrissy]

Funny. A few pages back you were demanding empirical evidence. Once a hypocrite, always a hypocrite.



Biological, legal, and social permanence in the changes of one's gender expression as well as a loss of male privilege. A 'part-timer' has none of those.



Pretty sure I just did. The name calling is unnecessary, especially considering that it's my LACK of cowardice and propensity for saying whatever I'm thinking sans filter that always seems to get me into trouble.

Ironic, much?

YOU'RE the coward. You're afraid to give up your male life to transition, but yet you still demand the same treatment and respect as a woman that a transsexual receives. That's kind of like saying, 'I took a few courses in college, so I deserve the respect that a PhD receives.' Well, you don't. Such respect is EARNED, not given willy nilly.

~BB~

You answered nothing.

Your "answers" are so vague as to be used to describe a butch lesbian as being "Transsexual". Or, a gay male who is very effeminate and openly so.

She (the butch female) biologically (I don't think that word means what you think it does) may appear male. She legally may have a name like "Alex" - gender neutral. She may permanently change her "gender expression" and doesn't have any "male privilege". She still isn't "Transsexual"... she is a lesbian woman.

He (the effeminate gay male) may biologically appear as gender neutral (see Aubrey Kate's young years?), may again, have a gender neutral name like "Chris", and may be so effeminate that his "male privilege" is effectively revoked. He is still not "Transsexual"... he is an effeminate gay man.

These people exist. I've worked with some and have a friend who is like the gay male example... so effeminate in appearance, manner, and dress (but altogether gay) but completely and wholly male... doesn't want to change at all (he complains all the time of being treated as a female so I know he has no "male privilege" to speak of. It is a joke among us all.

Bella, you have a complete lack of understanding of the very term you affect to "own".

I asked you to CLEARLY and PRECISELY ANSWER THE QUESTIONS individually.

You've responded with a dribble of terms and lumped all four questions into one answer when the are DISTINCTLY DIFFERENT QUESTIONS REQUIRING DISTINCTLY DIFFERENT ANSWERS.

I can only draw the conclusion that you are unwilling (cowardly) to give the answers as stated or you can't (hypocritical because you don't fully even understand or are able to define the term you claim as yours).

Nice try on the sidestep. Called to the carpet again. See a pattern here?

[BellaBellucci]

I did answer your question. If you don't like that answer, then that's too fucking bad. :geek:

~BB~

[GroobyKrissy]

I did answer your question. If you don't like that answer, then that's too fucking bad. :geek:

~BB~

So you're sticking with your original answer? So the butch lesbian is Transsexual? The effeminate gay male is Transsexual?

Have you completely lost your mind to think that answer is sufficient?

You're so full of shit, Bella. This is actual, definitive proof-positive.

You were given the chance to put, in writing, your answers to four fundamental questions that must be answered for any person seriously interested in a "Transsexual" discussion... and you FAILED EPICALLY. You gave an answer so stupidly vague that you may as well said, "Transsexuals are people with feet, and oh yeah, they maybe think they may be in the wrong body."

You can't, or won't even accurately define the term "Transsexual". Without that, you invalidate yourself and ALL subsequent arguments since we don't know what the hell you're talking about (not really anything new there though, I suppose). You can change it at will to fit the point you're trying to argue. That is complete and utter BULLSHIT. Period.

[BellaBellucci]

So you're sticking with your original answer? So the butch lesbian is Transsexual? The effeminate gay male is Transsexual?

Have you completely lost your mind to think that answer is sufficient?

You're so full of shit, Bella. This is actual, definitive proof-positive.

You were given the chance to put, in writing, your answers to four fundamental questions that must be answered for any person seriously interested in a "Transsexual" discussion... and you FAILED EPICALLY. You gave an answer so stupidly vague that you may as well said, "Transsexuals are people with feet, and oh yeah, they maybe think they may be in the wrong body."

You can't, or won't even accurately define the term "Transsexual". Without that, you invalidate yourself and ALL subsequent arguments since we don't know what the hell you're talking about (not really anything new there though, I suppose). You can change it at will to fit the point you're trying to argue. That is complete and utter BULLSHIT. Period.

I'm not engaging. You've made this argument such a convoluted cluster-fuck that I don't even know what you're talking about anymore. You ask me a question. I answer it and ask you a question. You tell me you're not satisfied with my answer - actually no, you claim I didn't answer your question at ALL when in fact I did - and then you don't even bother to answer my question.

This isn't a debate or even a conversation. At this point your argument has devolved into you yelling at me like a crazy cat lady.

A CD is not a TS. Period. If you don't know the difference and need me to explain it to you, then I'm sorry for you, but I'm done. My views on most of these topics can be found at BellaBellucci.com and my Facebook page anyway. Go read them. Educate yourself.

Peace ouuuut!!! *drops mic* <3

~BB~

[GroobyKrissy]

I'm not engaging. You've made this argument such a convoluted cluster-fuck that I don't even know what you're talking about anymore. You ask me a question. I answer it and ask you a question. You tell me you're not satisfied with my answer - actually no, you claim I didn't answer your question at ALL when in fact I did - and then you don't even bother to answer my question.

This isn't a debate or even a conversation. At this point your argument has devolved into you yelling at me like a crazy cat lady.

A CD is not a TS. Period. If you don't know the difference and need me to explain it to you, then I'm sorry for you, but I'm done. My views on most of these topics can be found at BellaBellucci.com and my Facebook page anyway. Go read them. Educate yourself.

Peace ouuuut!!! *drops mic* <3

~BB~

So, let's just imagine this... If TOMORROW, I line up with your so-called definition of "Transsexual" - you'll suddenly welcome me with open arms and I will be part of this "sisterhood" that you espouse to champion?

Let's just all cut the BS and say once and for all - that will NEVER happen. There is NOTHING I could possibly say or do at this point that would EVER get you to admit that I'm Transsexual even if I were to line up completely with your own stated definition (which you have now twice foregone altering or clarifying).

Do you know why that is?

Because you're a BIGOT. That is the very definition of BIGOTRY. You put people into a box and think less of them because of a label you have placed upon them. Wake up to that fact, Bella. Address that fact, Bella. Come to terms with your own bigotry, Bella. Educate yourself about that, Bella.

*picks mic up off floor and dusts it off because I'm not afraid of discussion and thus will never drop a microphone on the floor and stompy-feet off*

[GroobyKrissy]

Edited by me.


then I'm sorry for you, but I'm done.

You're done because you have nothing to say.

You failed epically when given the chance to define a term you think you know something about. You failed to address the criticism that your definition is so vague that it allows for people who wouldn't even profess themselves to be Transsexual.

You failed. You're a fraud. You're a hypocrite. That is why you're done. You're fond of quotes... here is one for you:

"You've been weight, you have been measured, and you have been found wanting." - From A Knight's Tale

[robertlouis]

Tgirl works for me and for the transsexual girls I know - simple, unambiguous, non-threatening. Tranny just has too many negative connotations to be generally acceptable, shemale likewise.

[ladd3rfr3ak]

After reading this long conversation, i think we should stick to Tranny and shemale.

[Prospero]

Gawd, but this constant bickering between trannies is tedious (lol)

[LibertyHarkness]

i perfer the term Transsexual Woman or just Lady,Woman, Girl etc, I dont really like Tgirl as here in the UK generally it seems Tgirl is associated to CD/TVs same as Tranny is mostly associated to them as well. ...

In work as in adult modelling I dont mind Shemale, Tranny, Ladyboy so much as they are quite embedded words now for search strings .. though this year I am going to be removing them from my own descriptives and just use the word Transsexual instead ..

[SammiValentine]

i perfer the term transsexual woman or just lady,woman, girl etc, i dont really like tgirl as here in the uk generally it seems tgirl is associated to cd/tvs same as tranny is mostly associated to them as well. ...

In work as in adult modelling i dont mind shemale, tranny, ladyboy so much as they are quite embedded words now for search strings .. Though this year i am going to be removing them from my own descriptives and just use the word transsexual instead ..


fwt ? ;-)

[Prospero]

I prefer the words girls as well. Or women.

[LibertyHarkness]

sammi i only let my dad use the FWT term when he is talking about you .. xx you know how it is lid xx

[simonisthebest]

some people need to assume who they are ,.all that stuff about "im feelin insulted ,the word is too offensive" is just laughlable
i see no tranny complain when they receive theses tranny awards,

& liberty Please.....Nobody refer Cross dresser as tranny,

[SammiValentine]

some people need to assume who they are ,.all that stuff about "im feelin insulted ,the word is too offensive" is just laughlable
i see no tranny complain when they receive theses tranny awards,

& liberty Please.....Nobody refer Cross dresser as tranny,


She is talking about our experiences in our culture here in the UK and use of language and said words in english. lets face it, we lived it, how exactly you can say nobody does XYZ is beyond me :)

#crackersfella

[SammiValentine]

sammi i only let my dad use the FWT term when he is talking about you .. xx you know how it is lid xx

I still remember when you won FOTM :)

hahahhaha x

[Jericho]

Can't be bothered to read thru this load of old arse again.
No matter what you say, someone's going to be offended.
Be as offensive as possible...It's a good way of weeding out the nutjobs! :shrug

[iagodelgado]

What do you think.
Is it ok to defer to someone as a tgirl?
Could it become a slur?

Thoughts?

Is this an acceptable word - and would girls be happier with it? Would it be less objectionable to be profited from?

Personally, I think is OK to use in a situation where it is necessary or desirable to distinguish between trans and non-trans women, a situation that typically applies only when dealing with real trans issues.

Would it be less objectionable to be PROFITED from? I assume from that you mean in the porn world, in which case it would eventually come to have much the same connotation as tranny, shemale or similar words i.e. basically a slur out of any porn context.

[LibertyHarkness]

simon come to the uk and see for yourself just go on any number of tv/cd site, swinging site etc .. cd are referred as tranny, tranny is a catch them all phrase over here . Libertyknowsbest :)

[GroobySteven]

Would it be less objectionable to be PROFITED from? I assume from that you mean in the porn world, in which case it would eventually come to have much the same connotation as tranny, shemale or similar words i.e. basically a slur out of any porn context.

That question was aimed at Bella - who claimed that I supported the use of the word "tranny" which helped for homeless, suicides/deaths & beatings of transwomen (or some shit like that).
The overall point being, we've used "tgirl" for years and I believe one of the most responsible for promoting it not just on our properties but suggestive of it's use on other companies.

[Ben in LA]

Can't be bothered to read thru this load of old arse again.
No matter what you say, someone's going to be offended.
Be as offensive as possible...It's a good way of weeding out the nutjobs! :shrug
I don't think Coca Cola was trying to be offensive...but they did expose a lot of dickheads.

[iagodelgado]

That question was aimed at Bella - who claimed that I supported the use of the word "tranny" which helped for homeless, suicides/deaths & beatings of transwomen (or some shit like that).
The overall point being, we've used "tgirl" for years and I believe one of the most responsible for promoting it not just on our properties but suggestive of it's use on other companies.

My comment was written before I decided to read the whole thread.

I didn't get any direction to Bella in this thread. I have no idea what the history is between you two in general, and I guess your quote above comes from the Tranny v Nigger thread, which I did not read. None of these points is significant, so I'll move on.

I'm an interested outsider, not within the industry. I haven't picked up on tgirl being used in any significant way within the porn industry. I am NOT saying you haven't promoted this term. I'm just not getting it as significant from the outside, whereas tranny and shemale are very definitely tightly associated with porn, and disconnected from issues outside of porn.

I also do not get the association between tgirl and CD/TV, whether in the UK or otherwise, but as a couple of the UK ladies have been adamant it is, I would have to defer to their experience.

If the issue is actually about getting a deferential term, on this basis it looks like I'd have to stop using tgirl, stop using trans as people seem to see it as an umbrella term, and actually go to transsexual or TS. Wow, has AVN actually done something smart in this area, or should they change their terminology?

Since you've pointed out this is about carrying over an on-going argument, I guess not a lot I'm saying is relevant, so I'll drop out of the discussion.

Other than that, there's some posts on p9/p10 of this thread that seem to break the personal attack rules, for me to the extent of a warning or ban. It's kind of like how rough HA was before you took over.

[GroobySteven]

Other than that, there's some posts on p9/p10 of this thread that seem to break the personal attack rules, for me to the extent of a warning or ban. It's kind of like how rough HA was before you took over.

Agreed - action has been taken on all.

[runningdownthatdream]

Tgirl works for me and for the transsexual girls I know - simple, unambiguous, non-threatening. Tranny just has too many negative connotations to be generally acceptable, shemale likewise.

I'm with you on this. seems like a pretty common-sense thing too but obviously it isn't. From my observation, when the diminutive of a proper name is used for a 'racial, cultural, or gender group it - more often than not - is used to belittle, demean, and insult. I'm sure most of us know this - i.e.: Nigger for Negro, Chink for Chinese, Paki for Pakistani, Spic for Hispanic, and on and on.

I get what Steven and Krissy are saying (and Jamie too in the other thread) but I also sympathize with Bella's stance. They're all advocating for the community in their own way - just wish they can agree to disagree and leave at that.

As far as making a word 'the norm' I don't think anyone should be deciding or mandating 'the norm'. Education is the key and as bad as this thread has been (and the other one comparing tranny to nigger) it will hopefully serve to enlighten some of the cavemen reading.

PS - Did anyone notice the one poster who made the comment about Bella not being a woman and will never be a woman?

[GroobyKrissy]

I'm with you on this. seems like a pretty common-sense thing too but obviously it isn't. From my observation, when the diminutive of a proper name is used for a 'racial, cultural, or gender group it - more often than not - is used to belittle, demean, and insult. I'm sure most of us know this - i.e.: Nigger for Negro, Chink for Chinese, Paki for Pakistani, Spic for Hispanic, and on and on.

I get what Steven and Krissy are saying (and Jamie too in the other thread) but I also sympathize with Bella's stance. They're all advocating for the community in their own way - just wish they can agree to disagree and leave at that.

I disagree with you. We're not just "advocating" for the community in their own way... and to see it that way is to be blind to the truth of the matter.

In my "advocating", I do not divide or create divisions. I'm advocating for a meeting place... an area where all Transsexuals and those assuming ANY Transgender identities can meet in PEACE, work out their differences, and co-exist.

As you'll see from a series of articles I'm currently working on for Transformation Magazine, I am just as harsh on the silliness that goes on in the CD/TV community as I am the bigotry that goes on in the TS one, and I suppose I'll catch hell for that as well.

CD/TV's have got to stop being stupid and making the whole community a laughing stock. Transsexuals have got to put this "superiority complex" behind them and realize they are an incredible minority reaching across a 5' table for dinner with 3' arms. It is a simple matter to just say, "Please pass the potatoes"... so why isn't it being said more?

I am convinced of this: Transsexuals will NEVER, and I mean NEVER accomplish anything towards anything even resembling equality or acceptance without two things (in this order):

1. Unifying as a whole with the Transgender community
2. Mainstream backing

That is simple strategy. Someone has to step up and try to pull the edges together and fit the puzzle pieces in. I am trying to help accomplish that goal. The LGB crowd did exactly that, put aside their differences and unified... and have largely WON. To them, if you're gay... you're gay. They stand largely united with few petty differences. The "T" crowd has been left behind because it eats itself.

[GroobySteven]

PS - Did anyone notice the one poster who made the comment about Bella not being a woman and will never be a woman?

He's been given a warning - as it seems to be his first offense. There won't be a next time.

[runningdownthatdream]

Krissy it seems that you have exclusive rights on defining what is right, wrong, and in-between. I guess only your truth is important? You're preaching unity which is fantastic and i don't think anyone doubts your intentions are noble but you're bloody well savvy enough to know that that can only be accomplished through compromise - politics makes strange bedfellows is the cliche and it sure does apply here.

if you truly mean what you say then reaching agreement (more or less) with Bella should go a far way towards proving that you girls CAN unify.

[GroobyKrissy]

Krissy it seems that you have exclusive rights on defining what is right, wrong, and in-between. I guess only your truth is important? You're preaching unity which is fantastic and i don't think anyone doubts your intentions are noble but you're bloody well savvy enough to know that that can only be accomplished through compromise - politics makes strange bedfellows is the cliche and it sure does apply here.

if you truly mean what you say then reaching agreement (more or less) with Bella should go a far way towards proving that you girls CAN unify.

Look, Bella is not here to defend herself anymore and thus I will not speak on what she has said any further except to ask of you:

Do you see "compromise" written ANYWHERE in what she has written regarding the CD/TV community? And I don't mean just writing "Oh they're OK" because she wants to appear "tolerant". Here is your answer: It isn't there. The very term "compromise" dictates a moving together of two objects to form one... you can't compromise with a brick wall, and trying to do so is futile.

I have never argued "right" or "wrong" or "in between" on this issue so I don't know to what you're referring to here. I have also never claimed that "my truth" (a phrase I have never written BTW) is the only one. If you have a specific question on something specific I have said or written, then ask that instead of making something up, please.

I have argued that most Transsexuals that I've engaged in ON THIS BOARD and in other avenues, cannot even accurately define the issue themselves, or more importantly, accurately define what separates themselves from the greater Transgender spectrum.

I have argued that many Transsexuals, will not be honest about their roots, their lives, their past. I have done so here in another thread. Honesty is key in having a debate. If you're going to make up some fairy tale that you knew before you were in the womb that you were Transsexual, then there is no room for debate at all.

I have argued that many Transsexuals have a superiority complex that hits them just about the time the are "beautiful" enough to live 24/7 as a "woman" - and then they magically forget where they actually came from. It is the story of ugly girl turned beauty queen who then bullies and ridicules all the ugly girls. From just the last few hours I can pull up a couple of examples of the "Yeah, I'm not one of them - eeww... gross" mentality that I find destructive from girls. (Folks - the Internet is forever... those pictures of you when you were first starting out in porn and could readily be identified as "just a CD" ... yeah... still around...)

I will engage ANYONE in polite, logical, discourse on any issues regarding the TS vs. TG issue. I'm not afraid of it and am educated on both sites. But, both sides have to be honest, open, and willing to LISTEN - all things I do. That doesn't mean that I'm not going to call you out if your points aren't valid, logical, or saying anything... If you don't agree, refute them as I do when I don't agree with your points. I don't dodge issues. I don't sidestep questions. I answer them... completely... honestly.

If you can sway me in my OPINIONS, then do so with logic and discourse. I am more than open to learning, adapting my opinions, and if a stronger argument can be made... I want to hear it and adopt it.

[nysprod]

What do you mean Bella isn't here to defend herself anymore?

[GroobyKrissy]

What do you mean Bella isn't here to defend herself anymore?

Sorry... I thought this was common knowledge. Sorry mods.

[iagodelgado]

I am convinced of this: Transsexuals will NEVER, and I mean NEVER accomplish anything towards anything even resembling equality or acceptance without two things (in this order):

1. Unifying as a whole with the Transgender community
2. Mainstream backing

That is simple strategy. Someone has to step up and try to pull the edges together and fit the puzzle pieces in. I am trying to help accomplish that goal. The LGB crowd did exactly that, put aside their differences and unified... and have largely WON. To them, if you're gay... you're gay. They stand largely united with few petty differences. The "T" crowd has been left behind because it eats itself.

Historically, it did not happen like this.

Pre-Stonewall, one movement of straight cross-dressers had split from the rest, using the simple notion that they would more chance of getting cross-dressing accepted if they left behind the categories society would not accept, namely homosexuals (whether CDs or not) and transsexuals.

A year after Stonewall, in the very first rights movements, gays were complaining about the 'queens' in the parade i.e. cross-dressers and transsexuals, on the basis that they would never get acceptance for gays with that sort of baggage in tow. Going solo they largely won, leaving the others to their devices.

Various movements have tried uniting those left behind, the 'queens', while others preferred to try to make progress by going separate ways.

This is not the thread to discuss properly whether more progress will be made with the CDs and TSs united, and/or linked to GLB, or separate. If you fancy batting that around, perhaps you'll start another thread, and I'll chip in more info.

But briefly, based on evidence, I conclude that both CDs and TSs would make more progress separately, with TS keeping gay at arm's length. There is a lot of hard medical evidence for genetic and biological factors in TS. I am not aware of any decent research into CDs.

It isn't a case of whether one group is superior. It is a case of difference.

[GroobyKrissy]

Historically, it did not happen like this.

Pre-Stonewall, one movement of straight cross-dressers had split from the rest, using the simple notion that they would more chance of getting cross-dressing accepted if they left behind the categories society would not accept, namely homosexuals (whether CDs or not) and transsexuals.

A year after Stonewall, in the very first rights movements, gays were complaining about the 'queens' in the parade i.e. cross-dressers and transsexuals, on the basis that they would never get acceptance for gays with that sort of baggage in tow. Going solo they largely won, leaving the others to their devices.

Various movements have tried uniting those left behind, the 'queens', while others preferred to try to make progress by going separate ways.

This is not the thread to discuss properly whether more progress will be made with the CDs and TSs united, and/or linked to GLB, or separate. If you fancy batting that around, perhaps you'll start another thread, and I'll chip in more info.

But briefly, based on evidence, I conclude that both CDs and TSs would make more progress separately, with TS keeping gay at arm's length. There is a lot of hard medical evidence for genetic and biological factors in TS. I am not aware of any decent research into CDs.

It isn't a case of whether one group is superior. It is a case of difference.

The point of this thread, I think, has been a bit lost on everyone. It was a specific and targeted question for a reason that has been asked/answered.

OK, I feel you're a bit wandering. Did you have a question in quoting me?

You have used the following terms here:

straight cross-dressers
homosexuals
CDs
transsexuals
gays
queens
TSs
GLB

What is your point?

The stuff about "medical evidence" is pure nonsense. CD's are male... there is plenty of research on males... psychologically, biologically... and just about any other "ally". What is the point of that?

If your main point is the last couple of sentences. I disagree... because the difference is based in superiority... the two cannot be separated in the context I am using them.

[MrsKellyPierce]

I don't like tgirl...but I also don't like transgender either

[MrsKellyPierce]

I don't like tgirl...but I also don't like transgender either due to it being too broad. I like trans-woman or transsexual.

I don't feel crossdressers/transvestites/drag queens should be under the umbrella due to them being CIS people not suffering from dysphoria I feel it confuses the public on what a trans-woman really is and enforces the fact we are dressing up for thrills and laughs.

Tgirls is also a popular term crossdressers have owned now for quite sometime at parties/groups/social slang.

It's not about being better or higher spectrum it's about making people understand a trans-woman/man who has gone through transition is not doing it for fun, sex, or laughs. Many people think/confuse us and assume we get hard ons from wearing panties or are sexual deviants.

[EvonRose]

Why do many just refuse to call it a she/ her. Why do they have to be specifically addressed by their dysphoria? It's male or female you pick with the appropriate box.

[GroobySteven]

Why do many just refuse to call it a she/ her. Why do they have to be specifically addressed by their dysphoria? It's male or female you pick with the appropriate box.

I don't think that's the issue Evon. Clearly, we'd address you as a she/her/Ms. but for some situations a definition has to be drawn. For example, this board couldn't be called a "Board for girls" as it would bring in the wrong group.

[simonisthebest]

simon come to the uk and see for yourself just go on any number of tv/cd site, swinging site etc .. cd are referred as tranny, tranny is a catch them all phrase over here . Libertyknowsbest :)

its just Internet, that stuff only need a update anyway:yayo:,real people know about tranny & crossdresser just by a picture,

i know the difference between libertyharkness ,kelly shore or sammi valentine with that other person who keep postin on this thread & look Asian:whistle::yayo:

[GroobySteven]

It's not about being better or higher spectrum it's about making people understand a trans-woman/man who has gone through transition is not doing it for fun, sex, or laughs. Many propel think/confuse us and assume we get hard ons from wearing panties or are sexual deviants.

... well said.
This should also include girls who are very early in transition and WANT/DESIRE to transition but haven't went through it yet. So it's a state of mind and not a sexual kick.

[MrsKellyPierce]

I honestly don't mind Shemale/chick with dick for porn for googling purposes..

If someone is wanting to research trans-people on a serious level I wouldn't want a bunch of porn popping up.

At least when they type in transsexual/transgender psychological studies/right groups pop up.

Girls that go crazy over this I understand why, but they also need to think of it by internet searching/tags

[EvonRose]

I don't think that's the issue Evon. Clearly, we'd address you as a she/her/Ms. but for some situations a definition has to be drawn. For example, this board couldn't be called a "Board for girls" as it would bring in the wrong group.

In real life theres no situation where a definition needs to be drawn tho.

in a situation like defining one for a porn blog, theres no difference or any name that would bring respect to the girls anyways. Just stick to porn terms, at least that feeds the fantasy.

[GroobySteven]

In real life theres no situation where a definition needs to be drawn tho.

in a situation like defining one for a porn blog, theres no difference or any name that would bring respect to the girls anyways. Just stick to porn terms, at least that feeds the fantasy.

I disagree - I believe there would be situations outside of porn but agree with the sentiment.

[EvonRose]

I disagree - I believe there would be situations outside of porn but agree with the sentiment.

Like????

Please let me know as a transexual when you have needed to label yourself besides a female in social norms?

[GroobySteven]

Like????

Please let me know as a transexual when you have needed to label yourself besides a female in social norms?

As an individual visiting a Doctor could have issues where you need to reveal yourself as a transsexual, similarly a lawyer or state dept.

As a corporation putting in place worker rights and codes of conduct. There are places where a word has to be used.

[iagodelgado]

As an individual visiting a Doctor could have issues where you need to reveal yourself as a transsexual, ...

By curious coincidence, a rather famous lady posted that a couple of days ago she visited a surgeon for pre-op discussion on major surgery she is to undergo a week from now.

She pointed out that she was T, in case it made a difference.

It turns out it made no difference, but the lady in question was pleased that the surgeon handled this query in a totally professional manner.

[GroobyKrissy]

Edited And Broken Into Two Segments By Me.



I don't feel crossdressers/transvestites/drag queens should be under the umbrella due to them being CIS people not suffering from dysphoria I feel it confuses the public on what a trans-woman really is and enforces the fact we are dressing up for thrills and laughs.

So here is are questions for you Kelly. Please answer them directly.

Define Transsexual and define Transgender (using your own words with no outside links, etc.).

Is it possible for a Crossdresser / Transvestite / Drag Queen to also be Transsexual or do the two never exist together in one body?

Do you (or can you) become Transsexual? In other words, is there a learning curve where you actually come to the realization that you are something that you had no definition of to begin with?


It's not about being better or higher spectrum it's about making people understand a trans-woman/man who has gone through transition is not doing it for fun, sex, or laughs. Many people think/confuse us and assume we get hard ons from wearing panties or are sexual deviants.

This is utter nonsense. You know that I've never heard?

A self-indentified CD say to a self-identified Transsexual, "What do you know? You're just a Transssexual."

You know what I hear in almost EVERY SINGLE DISCUSSION I try to have with a self-identified Transsexual when they cannot defend their position, will not be honest, or will not realize they have a bigotry in themselves? "What do you know? You're just a CD."

There IS a superiority complex that does LARGELY exist in the Transsexual community. I can go through every heated conversation that I've had on this board with [almost - and I just put that in as a CYA] and pull up a quote that says the above thing almost word for word. Amber, Eva, Bella, Remy, and on and on... it is almost a given that it will be said, and intended as a slur.

[GroobyKrissy]

Why do many just refuse to call it a she/ her. Why do they have to be specifically addressed by their dysphoria? It's male or female you pick with the appropriate box.

OK... let's tackle this question.

Transsexuals, and some parts of the Transgender spectrum want the whole cake... and then another to eat as well. They want a world where they are completely immune to the dangers that everyone else faces (hate crime, bigotry, etc. etc.) AND they want to assimilate into the gender binaries we currently have. This cannot coexist at this time and here is the reason why.

It is PERCEPTION that matters. By in large, the PERCEPTION, rightly or wrongly, of the male in the street, the female on the street is that if you were born with a penis - you're male. If you were born with a vagina - you're female. PERIOD. This perception has been around since 6,000 years or billions and billions of years - depending on if you're religious or not - and guess what... it ain't gonna change any time soon.

So, unless (pre or non-op) Transsexuals and parts of the TG spectrum are willing to put up with skyrocketing hate crimes, YOU MUST accept that there is going to be a label... just out of the issue of safety alone, and for a few other smaller reasons as well. Or, I suppose there is the other case in which Transsexuals just stop being sexual beings and live lives completely without emotional or physical contact. That would solve the issue too.

[GroobyKrissy]

Like????

Please let me know as a transexual when you have needed to label yourself besides a female in social norms?

When you date someone. You are putting your life into your own hands and therefore should be responsible for the consequences (and no, I'm not blaming the victim here so let's not even play that game - think people understand what I mean). If you choose to play Russian Roulette and lose - blame yourself.

You do not know how the person is going to react when / if they have to find out on their own that you are Transsexual... either pre-op or post-op. They could be totally fine with it or they could start beating you to a pulp.

That's just one... a fairly important one for those who are interested in dating and developing a strong, nurturing relationship with another person though.

[GroobyKrissy]

its just Internet, that stuff only need a update anyway:yayo:,real people know about tranny & crossdresser just by a picture,

i know the difference between libertyharkness ,kelly shore or sammi valentine with that other person who keep postin on this thread & look Asian:whistle::yayo:

Look. If you have a problem with me, then man up and refute what I've said. Otherwise, at least show me the respect of using my name. What you've done is just cowardly.

[MrsKellyPierce]

Edited And Broken Into Two Segments By Me.



So here is are questions for you Kelly. Please answer them directly.

Define Transsexual and define Transgender (using your own words with no outside links, etc.).

Is it possible for a Crossdresser / Transvestite / Drag Queen to also be Transsexual or do the two never exist together in one body?

Do you (or can you) become Transsexual? In other words, is there a learning curve where you actually come to the realization that you are something that you had no definition of to begin with?



This is utter nonsense. You know that I've never heard?

A self-indentified CD say to a self-identified Transsexual, "What do you know? You're just a Transssexual."

You know what I hear in almost EVERY SINGLE DISCUSSION I try to have with a self-identified Transsexual when they cannot defend their position, will not be honest, or will not realize they have a bigotry in themselves? "What do you know? You're just a CD."

There IS a superiority complex that does LARGELY exist in the Transsexual community. I can go through every heated conversation that I've had on this board with [almost - and I just put that in as a CYA] and pull up a quote that says the above thing almost word for word. Amber, Eva, Bella, Remy, and on and on... it is almost a given that it will be said, and intended as a slur.
Krissy I find you are on the defense? I am not sure why......I have plenty of friends that are crossdressers and drag queens. Those same friends would say they are NOT like me. So why the defense I have no idea. They take off their make up at night and go back to being the men they IDENTIFY being. They are happy individuals.

A transsexual "drag queen" aka show girl still views herself as a woman..just like women who do drag shows or "celebrity impersonators" I know several women who make money as drag queens. At the end of the day though they are CIS people who are either straight, bi, or gay females. Being a drag queen is a job..it's not a CONDITION..not dysphoric.

So to say we are like someone who get off in panties or fetishist or doing it strickly for financial and fun purposes is WRONG. You are saying because we all have the same outer form and some go farther in their goal of femininity we are still the same. Which is not the CASE.. being a TRANSSEXUAL has everything to do with the upstairs and how we IDENTIFY ourselves! It has everything to do with NOT being happy with what we see in the mirror. Feeling like we are trapped in a body that seems foreign to us. Having objects on it we can't deal with. I don't know any crossdressers/drag queens that have this issue.

Crossdressers/Drag Queens are typically CIS STRAIGHT/GAY/BISEXUAL men. They don't need counseling to find who they are. They are not dealing with hating their body on the outside. Not to mention I often found many transsexuals aren't even transsexuals. Just because they have boobs or take hormones doesn't make them TRANSSEXUAL. I know plenty of drag queens that identify as gay men, but got boobs etc so they could look the part more for their JOB. Just like I know many so called transsexuals that escort that got surgeries etc so they could make more money or they are fetishist on the glamour of being a woman and the validation they feel it brings from men.

Many girls self-medicate and don't even go to a counselor understand what's going on with them. Even when they do seek counseling I feel many are misdiagnosed and have body dysphoria instead of being transsexual. Due to not every psyhochologist is well versed in the topic. People are still very unaware of what goes on inside a transsexuals head even the CIS people that have studied us for years! Even people that think they know all about us because they interact with us. Until someone is a transsexual they can NEVER fully understand us. They will never know how we feel inside or how depressing and skin crawling it can be to be US. This is why I said what I said. Even when we explain our side I don't think people GRASP it totally.

So again I don't know WHY you are on the defense...


Transgender is an umbrella term I obviously posted a picture showing that. I feel it does more harm when they use "transgender" on a drag queen/crossdresser in an article (which they do) and then use transgender again with an actual trans-woman/man. It confuses the public what we are. Are we just dressing for fun, sex, or money or are we living our lives as any other CIS person? I do not like the word, because it being so broad and it is used so much in the media on anyone that was born a man wearing womens clothing. I feel it does a disservice to transsexuals.

I can't tell you how many times I have interacted with people that assumed transsexuals were drag queens or crossdressers. I can't tell you the countless times I was hanging with CIS people who didn't know about me talk about transsexuals as people that like to get off in panties. This is the message that is being sent, because they confuse all of us due to us being all lumped in together!

[MrsKellyPierce]

Not to mention if we weren't "DIFFERENT" there wouldn't be different labels and definitions for each of us. So your point to me is silly..not to mention IRRELEVANT, IGNORANT, and OFFENSIVE to a trans-woman. We are not the same...you can focus on the body all you like. I focus on what goes on upstairs.

We are different............not better..not higher..but different.

Being a transsexual has nothing to do with the outside body..I know plenty of drag queens that underwent surgeries and taken hormones to look the part. Doesn't mean they are transsexual, especially since they still IDENTIFY as GAY MEN at the end of the day.

[GroobyKrissy]

Krissy I find you are on the defense? I am not sure why......I have plenty of friends that are crossdressers and drag queens. Those same friends would say they are NOT like me. So why the defense I have no idea. They take off their make up at night and go back to being the men they IDENTIFY being. They are happy individuals.

A transsexual "drag queen" aka show girl still views herself as a woman..just like women who do drag shows or "celebrity impersonators" I know several women who make money as drag queens. At the end of the day though they are CIS people who are either straight, bi, or gay females. Being a drag queen is a job..it's not a CONDITION..not dysphoric.

So to say we are like someone who get off in panties or fetishist or doing it strickly for financial and fun purposes is WRONG. You are saying because we all have the same outer form and some go farther in their goal of femininity we are still the same. Which is not the CASE.. being a TRANSSEXUAL has everything to do with the upstairs and how we IDENTIFY ourselves! It has everything to do with NOT being happy with what we see in the mirror. Feeling like we are trapped in a body that seems foreign to us. Having objects on it we can't deal with. I don't know any crossdressers/drag queens that have this issue.

Crossdressers/Drag Queens are typically CIS STRAIGHT/GAY/BISEXUAL men. They don't need counseling to find who they are. They are not dealing with hating their body on the outside. Not to mention I often found many transsexuals aren't even transsexuals. Just because they have boobs or take hormones doesn't make them TRANSSEXUAL. I know plenty of drag queens that identify as gay men, but got boobs etc so they could look the part more for their JOB. Just like I know many so called transsexuals that escort that got surgeries etc so they could make more money or they are fetishist on the glamour of being a woman and the validation they feel it brings from men.

Many girls self-medicate and don't even go to a counselor understand what's going on with them. Even when they do seek counseling I feel many are misdiagnosed and have body dysphoria instead of being transsexual. Due to not every psyhochologist is well versed in the topic. People are still very unaware of what goes on inside a transsexuals head even the CIS people that have studied us for years! Even people that think they know all about us because they interact with us. Until someone is a transsexual they can NEVER fully understand us. They will never know how we feel inside or how depressing and skin crawling it can be to be US. This is why I said what I said. Even when we explain our side I don't think people GRASP it totally.

So again I don't know WHY you are on the defense...

First of all... I noticed you didn't answer the questions I posed or define the terms I asked you to define.

Kelly... I'm not on the defense or "offended" by what you've said at all. I disagree with it. And, since you posted it on a public forum, I can only surmise that it is for the purposes of discussion. Just because I don't agree and challenge a point, doesn't mean I'm being defensive... it means I don't agree and wish to discuss it. That being said...

Specifically, this is what you said, that I disagree with (anything in bold and in parenthesis is my commentary):

"I don't feel crossdressers/transvestites/drag queens (I find it incredible that you, being supposedly learned on the subject, would lump these three together - the two first terms are possibly interchangeable - the term Drag Queen is completely separate and should not even part of the discussion) should be under the umbrella (I'm assuming you mean the "Transgender" umbrella) due to them being CIS people not suffering from dysphoria [sic] I feel it confuses the public on what a trans-woman really is and enforces the fact we are dressing up for thrills and laughs."

Let us look at your statement... which is unequivocal. That is to say, you have not left any room for debate... no modifiers used ("some", "many", "a few", "the majority" etc. CD's, TV's, drag queens). If you wish to revise your statement then do so.If I take it as it stands, you are saying by implication:

1. No CD/TV/DQ (in your opinion) suffers dysphoria. It is therefore logical to assume that you are in fact saying, no CD/TV/DQ is EVER Transsexual.

2. ALL CD/TV/DQ dress up for "thrills and laughs". I would ask you... WHAT are you basing this statement on?

Now, that being said, you have LARGELY walked back your first post/statement in the latter half of your most recent post/statement. Would you have done so if you were never challenged on it? I strongly doubt it.

THIS is the "superiority complex" that I am addressing and that has got to stop. Transsexuals cannot issue statements about Transgender individuals that are WRONG, because they think it strengthens their positions, or because they know that other like-minded Transsexuals will give them a hearty pat on the back and a thumbs-up, and then only walk them back or correct them when challenged. It is irresponsible at best and damaging to your (our?) larger cause at worst (it creates division).

My position and petition is this: issue the correct statement FIRST... to begin with... one that is accurate, correct, and doesn't need to be challenged because it is TRUE. Otherwise, if you go unchallenged, you are just spreading an incorrect, divisive, and damaging view... which is what you're really arguing against in the first place (i.e. - you dislike that the public perception is that Transsexual = men in panties).

As to your last paragraph...
And you blame the Transgender community for the perceptions of the public at large? Isn't that a pretty large burden to put on a relatively few individuals? Wouldn't you be better served by saying:

You know what? Transsexuals had better start getting their acts together, unifying, and educating the public in real, tangible ways instead of just blaming Transgender individuals all the time.

I will take tangible action over cheap talk any day of the week.

[MrsKellyPierce]

First of all... I noticed you didn't answer the questions I posed or define the terms I asked you to define.

Kelly... I'm not on the defense or "offended" by what you've said at all. I disagree with it. And, since you posted it on a public forum, I can only surmise that it is for the purposes of discussion. Just because I don't agree and challenge a point, doesn't mean I'm being defensive... it means I don't agree and wish to discuss it. That being said...

Specifically, this is what you said, that I disagree with (anything in bold and in parenthesis is my commentary):

"I don't feel crossdressers/transvestites/drag queens (I find it incredible that you, being supposedly learned on the subject, would lump these three together - the two first terms are possibly interchangeable - the term Drag Queen is completely separate and should not even part of the discussion) should be under the umbrella (I'm assuming you mean the "Transgender" umbrella) due to them being CIS people not suffering from dysphoria [sic] I feel it confuses the public on what a trans-woman really is and enforces the fact we are dressing up for thrills and laughs."

Let us look at your statement... which is unequivocal. That is to say, you have not left any room for debate... no modifiers used ("some", "many", "a few", "the majority" etc. CD's, TV's, drag queens). If you wish to revise your statement then do so.If I take it as it stands, you are saying by implication:

1. No CD/TV/DQ (in your opinion) suffers dysphoria. It is therefore logical to assume that you are in fact saying, no CD/TV/DQ is EVER Transsexual.

2. ALL CD/TV/DQ dress up for "thrills and laughs". I would ask you... WHAT are you basing this statement on?

Now, that being said, you have LARGELY walked back your first post/statement in the latter half of your most recent post/statement. Would you have done so if you were never challenged on it? I strongly doubt it.

THIS is the "superiority complex" that I am addressing and that has got to stop. Transsexuals cannot issue statements about Transgender individuals that are WRONG, because they think it strengthens their positions, or because they know that other like-minded Transsexuals will give them a hearty pat on the back and a thumbs-up, and then only walk them back or correct them when challenged. It is irresponsible at best and damaging to your (our?) larger cause at worst (it creates division).

My position and petition is this: issue the correct statement FIRST... to begin with... one that is accurate, correct, and doesn't need to be challenged because it is TRUE. Otherwise, if you go unchallenged, you are just spreading an incorrect, divisive, and damaging view... which is what you're really arguing against in the first place (i.e. - you dislike that the public perception is that Transsexual = men in panties).

As to your last paragraph...
And you blame the Transgender community for the perceptions of the public at large? Isn't that a pretty large burden to put on a relatively few individuals? Wouldn't you be better served by saying:

You know what? Transsexuals had better start getting their acts together, unifying, and educating the public in real, tangible ways instead of just blaming Transgender individuals all the time.

I will take tangible action over cheap talk any day of the week.

My opinion comes from this Krissy!

I have been a female impersonator and did pageants for years! Along the way coming across all sorts of different entertainers and people. People who I assumed were transsexuals because they had boobs, facial surgeries, and took hormones. I was taken aback when they told me oh girl no I just do this for the money I'm still a gay man.

I have many friends who are crossdressers. Mostly straight and mostly Republican men with great jobs.

This where my opinion stems from..

If a drag queen/transvestite/crossdresser IDENTIFY AS A WOMAN IN THE HEAD..they are not any of those..they are TRANSSEXUAL

How is it so hard for you comprehend this??

A drag queen/transvestite/crossdresser do not typically identify as anything but being a MAN or a WOMAN..they enjoy living their lives as what they were born.

And theate and tell me how does anyone who isn't a transsexual have the right to say we are the same or what is OFFENSIVE and not OFFENSIVE...

We are NOT THE SAME..no matter how you cut it..

I am 31 years old I have been conversing and talking to people online and asking questions and even playing characters or saying things to get reactions from people for KNOWLEDGE.

We are not the same..never will be..

and I did answer the question go back..I even posted a diagram..

There is no superiority in me saying crossdressers, transvestites, or drag queens are not like us. That's you reflecting your own issues and problems.

[MrsKellyPierce]

I would like to know how we are the same Krissy?? Other than that we were all born genetically male...

[GroobyKrissy]

Not to mention if we weren't "DIFFERENT" there wouldn't be different labels and definitions for each of us. So your point to me is silly..not to mention IRRELEVANT, IGNORANT, and OFFENSIVE to a trans-woman. We are not the same...you can focus on the body all you like. I focus on what goes on upstairs.

We are different............not better..not higher..but different.

Being a transsexual has nothing to do with the outside body..I know plenty of drag queens that underwent surgeries and taken hormones to look the part. Doesn't mean they are transsexual, especially since they still IDENTIFY as GAY MEN at the end of the day.

Kelly:

Where... PLEASE TELL ME WHERE... I have EVER stated that all CD/TV are Transsexual?

Find it and I will disappear off this board forever... and that is a promise. So search hard because you would make a lot of people happy.

I have never postulated such a view and never will.

What I HAVE argued is that the two terms "Transsexual" and "Transgender" are not mutually exclusive. I have yet to meet a self-identified Transsexual who can explain to me LOGICALLY why they are or should be mutually exclusive.... YET... almost every self-identified, academic Transsexual (I've also met others who just don't care - just as clarification) will argue the point to their dying breath.

My point of view is this:

You can be Transsexual... and never change a thing about yourself physically or make any effort to undergo "transition" at all. Period. It just means you have adapted mentally and physically to live with the feelings you have and/or have personal or external reasons for preventing a physical alteration.

You can be Transgender and slowly (or quickly) come to the realization (through education, exploration, self-examination, etc.) that you are, in fact, Transsexual.

I will take some advice from a different thread here though.
Kelly, if you can't define your terms, here and now in writing, we have nothing further to discuss.

Define, in your own words:
Transsexual
Transgender

And state plainly - In your own opinion, can you become Transsexual, or is this a state of being that is dependent only one's cognitive ability?

[nysprod]

Republicans screaming about homosexuality who crossdress and bend for the strap on and/or bbc lmfao u can't make this shit up.

[MrsKellyPierce]

Transgender is an UMBRELLA TERM...IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BEING JUST A TRANSSEXUAL..IT IS AN UMBRELLA TERM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Meaning anyone that was born with a birth defect or was born genetically the opposite sex they dress as are put under that umbrella term. Because society deems we are all the same.....RIGHT??

And I said I was quite aware and stated TRANSSEXUALISM HAS NOTHING DO WITH THE OUTSIDE APPEARANCE!! IT HAS TO DO WITH WHATS GOING ON UPSTAIRS. THOUGH I would ARGUE JUST BECAUSE A PERSON GETS USED TO the idea of living as a woman OR LIKES THE ATTENTION LIVING AS A WOMAN DOESN'T MAKE THEM A TRANSSEXUAL IN MY OPINION STILL! Just because they are happy living as a woman over living as a man doesn't mean they are transsexual. Many of these people find it maybe they are more attractive as a woman, get more attention, or find it easier. They are doing it for a more selfish purpose than it being about whats going on inside their HEAD...

I have met and counseled plenty of men that identified as women, but due to family and being scared would never transition. I still treated them as woman though, because I know it might be the only comfort they will get. I can't imagine the imprisoned state they have to deal with.

So again I do not under your "superiority" crap.

You just said that we aren't the same..so where in the hell are we disagreeing??

Krissy I have a long standing as an activist and counseling at transgender conferences and groups.

I just rejoined with the NCTE to get back into it.

So to say I act superior is offensive...

[GroobyKrissy]

Edited by me:


There is no superiority in me saying crossdressers, transvestites, or drag queens are not like us. That's you reflecting your own issues and problems.

Look, I could pick your post apart and talk about you making choices, and say that you've just proven my point, and blah blah blah. We're all tired of me doing that. So I will just say this to sum up what you've said:

So, there is no superiority in GENETICALLY BORN WOMEN saying that Transsexuals are not like them. If you have a problem with that, you're just reflecting your own issues and problems.

Your own argument defeats the very equality that you say you want and belies the bigotry you are unwilling to face.

[MrsKellyPierce]

Edited by me:



Look, I could pick your post apart and talk about you making choices, and say that you've just proven my point, and blah blah blah. We're all tired of me doing that. So I will just say this to sum up what you've said:

So, there is no superiority in GENETICALLY BORN WOMEN saying that Transsexuals are not like them. If you have a problem with that, you're just reflecting your own issues and problems.

Your own argument defeats the very equality that you say you want and belies the bigotry you are unwilling to face.
No honestly I have no issue with them saying that, here is why.

I don't presume to know 100% what it's like to be a woman, just like I don't presume to know what it's like to be post-operative. At this moment in my life, because I'm non-op I will never know it. It's why when I speak to post-operative trans-women it fascinates me. I even sometimes yearn for that side of life, however I just don't feel the surgery is up to par for my liking.

I know I'm a transsexual woman and what I deal with. I know a 100% what being a transsexual is about. That's what I DO KNOW.

I am a woman in my mind, but I think I miss out on things a cis woman deals with. Just like many women I have spoken to who can't have babies they feel like they are missing on something about being a woman.

It's not a superiority thing..it's about knowing that trans-women/men identify as the opposite sex they were born and crossdressers, transvestites, drag queens are typically CIS people that do it part time. They live as men and are happy that way. They are typically treated like any other man as long as nobody knows.

A transsexual doesn't have that luxory, but what we do have is contempt and confusion from mainstream society thinking we do it for sexual purposes, fetish, laughs, and financial purposes. That's what we get..so you really don't understand why it would annoy us??

[MrsKellyPierce]

If anyone is acting superior it's you...

[GroobySteven]

No honestly I have no issue with them saying that, here is why.

I don't presume to know 100% what it's like to be a woman, just like I don't presume to know what it's like to be post-operative. At this moment in my life, because I'm non-op I will never know it. It's why when I speak to post-operative trans-women it fascinates me. I even sometimes yearn for that side of life, however I just don't feel the surgery is up to par for my liking.

I know I'm a transsexual woman and what I deal with. I know a 100% what being a transsexual is about. That's what I DO KNOW.

I am a woman in my mind, but I think I miss out on things a cis woman deals with. Just like many women I have spoken to who can't have babies they feel like they are missing on something about being a woman.

It's not a superiority thing..it's about knowing that trans-women/men identify as the opposite sex they were born and crossdressers, transvestites, drag queens are typically CIS people that do it part time. They live as men and are happy that way. They are typically treated like any other man as long as nobody knows.

A transsexual doesn't have that luxory, but what we do have is contempt and confusion from mainstream society thinking we do it for sexual purposes, fetish, laughs, and financial purposes. That's what we get..so you really don't understand why it would annoy us??

Great post Kelly.

[MrsKellyPierce]

Not to mention a genetic woman IS RIGHT when she says she isn't like us.

Genetic women don't have to deal with dysphoria..ridicule for being something society deems they aren't...labeled the freak/secret...the list goes on.

I think the closest thing women can compare to our problems is when talking to some of my BBW porn friends are the bbw chasers and how society treats fat women even award shows..that would probably be the closest thing women can have to compare our situations..I was shocked to hear how similar the way they are treated by men.

We are different that's just truth..maybe in the future with technology we will have the possibilities of babies etc or a way to find out if a transsexual is a transsexual from birth.

WHO KNOWS...but all I do know is I'm not a crossdresser, transvestite, drag queen and we are not the same.

[GroobyKrissy]

I would like to know how we are the same Krissy?? Other than that we were all born genetically male...

We are human.
We both live on Earth.
We both breath oxygen.
We both have hearts.
We both have feelings.
We both have minds.
We both face fears.
We both face insecurities.
We both have dreams.
We both have hopes.
We both desire love.
We both desire to be loved.

Do I need to go on?

What you're really asking is this... (you're just too scared put it in writing):

Krissy, aren't you [just] a CD? Why are you comparing yourself to me, a full-fledged, perfect Transsexual?

*sigh* This is where such conversations always devolve.

This is my problem with the academic, Transsexual community. This is always your fallback position when challenged because you have not thought out the beliefs you espouse. The "just", although implied, also implies superiority, by default.

Because I have chosen to this point in my life, not to alter my body and continue to live as male, you make a leap in judgement that I cannot possibly be Transsexual.

On one hand, you think that spending money on surgeries, taking hormones, and living "as a woman" makes you one (THIS IS IMPORTANT - SO THINK ABOUT THIS: people cannot see what you think, so that is irrelevant to the discussion). Largely, genetically born women would wholly disagree with you... and in fact, call you a male... which you would take as a "slur".

On the other hand, you've no problem doing that exact same thing to someone who truly and actually FITS the definition of Transsexual on the inside but has no outward appearance of it. Instead you judge the outward appearance for the inward person.

Which one is more right? Neither. That is my point.

Academic Transsexuals need to stop "judging" who is Transsexual or not and instead focus on educating the public about why THEY ARE HUMANS... not freaks of nature... not sexual deviants... not deserving of pity... but smart, educated, HUMANS that have a place in today's society.

I will state this plainly - ANY Trans-Activism that does not start with the premise that we are all human and equally deserving of respect is doomed to fail because there is no argument that I've come across to make a valid point for Trans-equality otherwise.

This is purely a numbers game for me. Transsexuals lack the votes and numbers to accomplish anything. Period. That is just simple math. They must get some fucking humility and ask for help. This is the way the Transgender community (and all other communities) can help the Transsexual one and why the two must unify.

[MrsKellyPierce]

Honestly I had no idea you were/are a crossdresser..so again you are putting issues you had in your past on me...

Krissy I don't even know what your talking about I never said hormones, surgeries etc make you a woman or even a transsexual...

I said it has everything to do with what's going on between the ears..

You sweetheart must have had a lot of issues in your past with other trans-women that you are putting words in my mouth.

[GroobyKrissy]

No honestly I have no issue with them saying that, here is why.

I don't presume to know 100% what it's like to be a woman, just like I don't presume to know what it's like to be post-operative. At this moment in my life, because I'm non-op I will never know it. It's why when I speak to post-operative trans-women it fascinates me. I even sometimes yearn for that side of life, however I just don't feel the surgery is up to par for my liking.

I know I'm a transsexual woman and what I deal with. I know a 100% what being a transsexual is about. That's what I DO KNOW.

I am a woman in my mind, but I think I miss out on things a cis woman deals with. Just like many women I have spoken to who can't have babies they feel like they are missing on something about being a woman.

It's not a superiority thing..it's about knowing that trans-women/men identify as the opposite sex they were born and crossdressers, transvestites, drag queens are typically CIS people that do it part time. They live as men and are happy that way. They are typically treated like any other man as long as nobody knows.

A transsexual doesn't have that luxory, but what we do have is contempt and confusion from mainstream society thinking we do it for sexual purposes, fetish, laughs, and financial purposes. That's what we get..so you really don't understand why it would annoy us??

Kelly,

please, Please, PLEASE stop and think about what you just said.

You just stated that you don't care if women (and by default men, since they would have even more reasons than women to do such things) disparage, mock, and act in a bigoted manner towards Transsexuals because you are unable to relate to them 100%.

You have just given a blank check to all manner of bigotry. Congratulations.

[MrsKellyPierce]

Kelly,

please, Please, PLEASE stop and think about what you just said.

You just stated that you don't care if women (and by default men, since they would have even more reasons than women to do such things) disparage, mock, and act in a bigoted manner towards Transsexuals because you are unable to relate to them 100%.

You have just given a blank check to all manner of bigotry. Congratulations.

You know what I'm fine with that. Do you wanna know why?? You didn't say mock, disparage etc..

You said women who say they are NOT LIKE a transsexual..which is true..

Bullying someone on their personal choices and the way they live their life if it's not breaking the law or hurting anyone is wrong on all accounts.

I don't feel I'm bullying when I say we are different...

I don't presume I will ever change everyone's mind. It is something I dealt with long ago. If I worried about every person in society including other trans-wome that deemed me not a woman, a freak, an abomination I'd be a walking crazy person. Which I feel many trans-women are because they try so hard to fit in and need the validation from mainstream society. When I worry about people that actually want to learn about us and may have an open mind to treat us as the men and women we are! This is why I get annoyed with word transgender, because the media use it for every genetic born male in a dress. It confuses the masses that read the article. It's why I'm thrilled girls like Janet Mock, Laverne Cox, and Carmen Carrera are getting so much tv time in people's homes to understand the differences.

I am not sure what you are so worked up about.

All I know is AGAIN...A crossdresser, drag queen, transvestite are different than a transsexual. You can debate all you want, my opinion will not change. They are CIS people they do not suffer from GENDER dysphoria..The body does not make you what you are! What's in between the ears does..

[CORVETTEDUDE]

I prefer to refer to you gals as "special ladies", not "Trans, Tranny, TG, TS or etc."!!! I am open to using the term or terms that are most comfortable and respectful to you. I will defer to you to advise me as to what you like best.:shrug

[MrsKellyPierce]

Oops I hate my iPhone WHAT not when

[GroobyKrissy]

Honestly I had no idea you were/are a crossdresser..so again you are putting issues you had in your past on me...

Krissy I don't even know what your talking about I never said hormones, surgeries etc make you a woman or even a transsexual...

I said it has everything to do with what's going on between the ears..

You sweetheart must have had a lot of issues in your past with other trans-women that you are putting words in my mouth.

Look Sweetheart,

You're misreading or not understanding my post... (The "you" is "Transsexuals" not you, personally)

I said (the bold is important like I stated) those things are the only outward markings of being a woman that you have. Unless you're Jamie, you don't wear a T-shirt around that says "Tranny" on it... or maybe you do? Therefore, you have only outward markings that people perceive as "female" to let the world know that you are identifying as a "woman" as opposed to a "male". Thus the public perception of you is based upon those things... not what you think about yourself. Thus "thinking" or "knowing" you are Transsexual is completely irrelevant.

Anyway:

On one hand, you say it is "between your ears" if you are or are not Transsexual. (You have admittedly said that, yes?)

On the other hand you say (paraphrasing here) "I (and I am assuming you mean, "Transsexuals are..." am different from all CD/TV/DQ". (You have admittedly said that, yes?)

You have yet to say the two can co-exist in the same body.

Just say that if you believe it and suffer the wrath of the academic Transsexual crowd who vastly disagrees with you. This is, perhaps, the single-most important point that Transsexual and Transgender individuals must agree on and thus why I push back on it so much.

That will end the conversation right there and put you down, at least in my book, as reasonable.

[MrsKellyPierce]

Look Sweetheart,

You're misreading or not understanding my post... (The "you" is "Transsexuals" not you, personally)

I said (the bold is important like I stated) those things are the only outward markings of being a woman that you have. Unless you're Jamie, you don't wear a T-shirt around that says "Tranny" on it... or maybe you do? Therefore, you have only outward markings that people perceive as "female" to let the world know that you are identifying as a "woman" as opposed to a "male". Thus the public perception of you is based upon those things... not what you think about yourself. Thus "thinking" or "knowing" you are Transsexual is completely irrelevant.

Anyway:

On one hand, you say it is "between your ears" if you are or are not Transsexual. (You have admittedly said that, yes?)

On the other hand you say (paraphrasing here) "I (and I am assuming you mean, "Transsexuals are..." am different from all CD/TV/DQ". (You have admittedly said that, yes?)

You have yet to say the two can co-exist in the same body.

Just say that if you believe it and suffer the wrath of the academic Transsexual crowd who vastly disagrees with you. This is, perhaps, the single-most important point that Transsexual and Transgender individuals must agree on and thus why I push back on it so much.

That will end the conversation right there and put you down, at least in my book, as reasonable.

I had surgery Krissy for MYSELF...so I could look in the mirror and see the WOMAN I believe I am.

I am still having surgeries to gain the look I feel I should appear as.

FOR ME..so when I look in the mirror I'm not CRYING or DEPRESSED that all I see is a man or man features.

Something Crossdressers do not DEAL WITH..they want to look like woman for fantasy or fetish.

We want to appear as the women we ARE..so we are happy not only with ourselves but also get treated as the women we ARE..

So I am not quite clear what you are talking about.

At the end of the day a CROSSDRESSER, A DRAG QUEEN, A TRANSVESTITE...are NOT like US!! There is no SUPERIORITY saying that.

You are the one that comes off SUPERIOR...NOT I..

Do I feel a transsexual can be crossdresser?? No...I don't..

Do I feel a transsexual can be a drag queen? Yes, I do..because it's a job..female impersonation is a job..Do I feel more transsexuals would be pageant girls and/or strippers if they could make a living that way? YES, I feel that drag is an outlet for them.

Do I feel transsexuals are transvestites?? NO..I don't know any transsexual that gets off wearing panties/pantyhose

I think you have a chip on your shoulder..


I don't feel they can co-exsist in the same body..

I stated what I thought just because someone enjoys being a woman doesn't always mean they are a transsexual.

A transsexual is someone that identifies as the OPPOSITE SEX they were BORN..

Plain, simple, and easy..

[crystalsopen]

We are human.
We both live on Earth.
We both breath oxygen.
We both have hearts.
We both have feelings.
We both have minds.
We both face fears.
We both face insecurities.
We both have dreams.
We both have hopes.
We both desire love.
We both desire to be loved.

Do I need to go on?

...

I will state this plainly - ANY Trans-Activism that does not start with the premise that we are all human and equally deserving of respect is doomed to fail because there is no argument that I've come across to make a valid point for Trans-equality otherwise.

This is purely a numbers game for me. Transsexuals lack the votes and numbers to accomplish anything. Period. That is just simple math. They must get some fucking humility and ask for help. This is the way the Transgender community (and all other communities) can help the Transsexual one and why the two must unify.

:iagree:
I agree that appealing to our shared humanity is the most effective form of advocacy. I and think that showing are selves as people has made things better in recent years. I also agree that the decision to or not to transition is a personal and complicated one. I am not a "professional advocate", but I have helped one of my friends who is more politically active try to get slightly better services for homeless gender non-conforming people, after one of our friends was severely beaten outside a shelter. I have many friends who have detransitioned (temporarily or permanently) mostly for economic reasons, related to employment discrimination. And others who live and work as male for only those reasons. I have no issues people who choose not to transition. Its a hard road that is not right for everyone. People who have not gone down that road, in my opinion do not have the experience to lead others though it, but they can be great advocates and allies.

I hope I bring a little more light and little less heat here,
Crystal

[MrsKellyPierce]

Most crossdressers don't want to help us..they vote Republican and are Republican.

So not quite sure of the UNITY there lol

[GroobyKrissy]

Edited by me.


You know what I'm fine with that. Do you wanna know why?? You didn't say mock, disparage etc..

Kelly,

I'm not worked up. We're still having a discussion. I'm not angry. I'm not mad. I've cursed once for emphasis and it wasn't at you. I still respect you as an individual. I'm not anything but trying to make some points.

Maybe I have a very, VERY basic misunderstanding of your personal goals here so let me ask this:

Do you think (MtF obviously) Transsexuals are women?
Do you think that there should be men, women, and Transsexuals or that there should just be "men" and "women"?

Because it kinda seems like you're not really sure... which I think is pretty much the entirety of the fight Transsexuals want. Treat them like women. They are women. Don't label them as "other" since they are women.

[GroobyKrissy]

Most crossdressers don't want to help us..they vote Republican and are Republican.

So not quite sure of the UNITY there lol

Can I have your data to back up that claim?

If you don't have any... retract the statement.

[MrsKellyPierce]

Can I have your data to back up that claim?

If you don't have any... retract the statement.

All the crossdressers I have met at parties or interacted with online have been Republican..

A big portion of my fan base are crossdressers TBH, because most of my earlier roles were as a top. They want the sissification etc.

I get crossdressers yelling at me constantly for my views and are PURE REPUBLICANS..

And all the ones I met at rallies, support groups, and conventions were also REPUBLICAN..

I don't think voting Republican does the TRANS-COMMUNITY any service and I even had crossdressers tell us transsexuals to shut up and don't ruffle feathers.

The list goes on...

Krissy you are just trying to argue to argue now..

[MrsKellyPierce]

Edited by me.



Kelly,

I'm not worked up. We're still having a discussion. I'm not angry. I'm not mad. I've cursed once for emphasis and it wasn't at you. I still respect you as an individual. I'm not anything but trying to make some points.

Maybe I have a very, VERY basic misunderstanding of your personal goals here so let me ask this:

Do you think (MtF obviously) Transsexuals are women?
Do you think that there should be men, women, and Transsexuals or that there should just be "men" and "women"?

Because it kinda seems like you're not really sure... which I think is pretty much the entirety of the fight Transsexuals want. Treat them like women. They are women. Don't label them as "other" since they are women.
I feel we are women, but I think we are TRANS-Women.

We are a different type of woman, because our femininity happens up stairs the outside is a plus.

Where as a CIS woman are women by society standards and scientific standards.

I think society puts too much emphasis on body and private parts to be honest.

Which I feel is what you are doing, because you are adamant in saying we relate to one another.

We only relate to one another by being born genetically male..the rest ends there...as far as gender identity goes.

[msbhaven]

Look Krissy the simple fact is you don't get it. And the reason you don't get it is that you aren't a transsexual. It's OK honey really. I didn't get it too well either before I transitioned.

From the other side of the fence I look back and wonder how I could have been so blind about it despite the fact that I WAS transsexual even though I hadn't transitioned yet. The answer is that I simply lacked the life experience living as my true self to fully comprehend what that would mean. At the time I had also not spent years on HRT, and I promise you that hormones WILL change your brain. But beyond that I had not given up the privileges and security that are part and parcel of being an outwardly hetero male in this society. I hadn't gone through the struggles of a legal name change, hadn't dealt with the misogynist behavior of men towards women, hadn't dealt with the mess that medical care becomes when you are born with male genitalia but live your life as a woman. In short I had no concept of what it was to live my life as a woman or as transitioned transsexual until I actually lived it. Because of that I was completely unqualified to determine questions like, "Is the word tranny offensive?" And I was utterly unsuited to speak for the experience of transsexual women.

I don't think transvestites or cross dressers are less then what I am I just think that they are different from what I am. They have a different life experience and are better able to advocate for their group then I would ever hope to be. I certainly believe that some of them really are transsexuals and that one day they may transition, but until they start that journey they have no place speaking for me or any other transsexual.

You are not less then or inferior to me or to Kelly or Bella or any other transsexual woman, you are simply different from us.

[GroobyKrissy]

Edited by me. Context is not changed.




Do I feel a transsexual can be crossdresser?? No...I don't..

Do I feel a transsexual can be a drag queen? Yes, I do..because it's a job..female impersonation is a job..Do I feel more transsexuals would be pageant girls and/or strippers if they could make a living that way? YES, I feel that drag is an outlet for them.

A transsexual is someone that identifies as the OPPOSITE SEX they were BORN..

Good grief.

Kelly... surely you MUST realize how insanely irrational this is.

A crossdresser cannot be Transsexual but a Drag Queen CAN? WTF???

I suppose the next questions would logically be:

Can a Crossdresser be a Drag Queen? To which you would logically, in fact HAVE to answer "NO" (because then crossdressers could indeed be Transsexual)

Likewise I could also ask, "Well then, can a Drag Queen be a crossdresser?" Which again, you would have to answer "NO" (for the same reason).

Both of those answer are pure silliness. Crossdressers and Drag Queens overlap all the time. I think that is indisputable.

Simply put, you, in fact, having already stated in writing that you were once a Drag Queen, must include them as being possibly Transsexual since you now claim the title yourself. It's not hard to see what you're doing. You're unwilling to admit you were ever a crossdresser so you substitute Drag Queen for the title... which really, and I mean this with all due respect, is utterly laughable. Just be honest and say, "Yes, I was once lived my life as a male and wore women's clothing. In that respect I am like you. Please add that to the list of things that make us similar even though I am not willing to publicly admit it."

This is insanity and I don't really feel we can continue a conversation if this is your point of view because you're not being honest and / or rational.

Anyway, like I said, I'm not mad. I think you have a good heart. Confused on some issues, but you have taken the time to write and I think that is worth something.

Thanks for the discussion, which I have enjoyed, and I wish you a good rest of your day and good luck with your book.

[MrsKellyPierce]

Look Krissy the simple fact is you don't get it. And the reason you don't get it is that you aren't a transsexual. It's OK honey really. I didn't get it too well either before I transitioned.

From the other side of the fence I look back and wonder how I could have been so blind about it despite the fact that I WAS transsexual even though I hadn't transitioned yet. The answer is that I simply lacked the life experience living as my true self to fully comprehend what that would mean. At the time I had also not spent years on HRT, and I promise you that hormones WILL change your brain. But beyond that I had not given up the privileges and security that are part and parcel of being an outwardly hetero male in this society. I hadn't gone through the struggles of a legal name change, hadn't dealt with the misogynist behavior of men towards women, hadn't dealt with the mess that medical care becomes when you are born with male genitalia but live your life as a woman. In short I had no concept of what it was to live my life as a woman or as transitioned transsexual until I actually lived it. Because of that I was completely unqualified to determine questions like, "Is the word tranny offensive?" And I was utterly unsuited to speak for the experience of transsexual women.

I don't think transvestites or cross dressers are less then what I am I just think that they are different from what I am. They have a different life experience and are better able to advocate for their group then I would ever hope to be. I certainly believe that some of them really are transsexuals and that one day they may transition, but until they start that journey they have no place speaking for me or any other transsexual.

You are not less then or inferior to me or to Kelly or Bella or any other transsexual woman, you are simply different from us.
Well said hon

[msbhaven]

Edited by me. Context is not changed.



Good grief.

Kelly... surely you MUST realize how insanely irrational this is.

A crossdresser cannot be Transsexual but a Drag Queen CAN? WTF???

I suppose the next questions would logically be:

Can a Crossdresser be a Drag Queen? To which you would logically, in fact HAVE to answer "NO" (because then crossdressers could indeed be Transsexual)

Likewise I could also ask, "Well then, can a Drag Queen be a crossdresser?" Which again, you would have to answer "NO" (for the same reason).

Both of those answer are pure silliness. Crossdressers and Drag Queens overlap all the time. I think that is indisputable.

Simply put, you, in fact, having already stated in writing that you were once a Drag Queen, must include them as being possibly Transsexual since you claim the title yourself. It's not hard to see what you're doing. You're unwilling to admit you were ever a crossdresser so you substitute Drag Queen for the title... which really, and I mean this with all due respect, is utterly laughable.

This is insanity and I don't really feel we can continue a conversation if this is your point of view.

Anyway, like I said, I'm not mad. I think you have a good heart. Confused on some issues but you have taken the time to write and I think that is worth something.

Thanks for the discussion and I wish you a good rest of your day.

Drag Queen is a job.

Cross Dressing is a fetish.

Transsexual is a state of mind.

A transsexual can start out as a part time cross dresser, get work as a Drag Queen and eventually transition to full time as a fully accepted transsexual female (that's my term of course not a society one).

Cross dressers can be drag queens but a TRUE cross dresser is not a transsexual and will never transition to full time status.

Transsexuals can work as drag queens but are not defined by their job title.

Hope this helps your understanding.

BTW these are my opinions only and may differ from those of Kelly or other transsexuals

[MrsKellyPierce]

Edited by me. Context is not changed.



Good grief.

Kelly... surely you MUST realize how insanely irrational this is.

A crossdresser cannot be Transsexual but a Drag Queen CAN? WTF???

I suppose the next questions would logically be:

Can a Crossdresser be a Drag Queen? To which you would logically, in fact HAVE to answer "NO" (because then crossdressers could indeed be Transsexual)

Likewise I could also ask, "Well then, can a Drag Queen be a crossdresser?" Which again, you would have to answer "NO" (for the same reason).

Both of those answer are pure silliness. Crossdressers and Drag Queens overlap all the time. I think that is indisputable.

Simply put, you, in fact, having already stated in writing that you were once a Drag Queen, must include them as being possibly Transsexual since you claim the title yourself. It's not hard to see what you're doing. You're unwilling to admit you were ever a crossdresser so you substitute Drag Queen for the title... which really, and I mean this with all due respect, is utterly laughable.

This is insanity and I don't really feel we can continue a conversation if this is your point of view.

Anyway, like I said, I'm not mad. I think you have a good heart. Confused on some issues but you have taken the time to write and I think that is worth something.

Thanks for the discussion and I wish you a good rest of your day.
You don't read a CROSSDRESSER is TYPICALLY A STRAIGHT MAN!

SOMEONE THAT IDENTIFIES AS A WOMAN WAS NEVER EVER A CROSSDRESSER EVER!!!!!!!

Just because they didn't take PILLS or get SURGERIES doesn't mean they aren't TRANSSEXUALS..

Many transsexuals are part timers that other girls may consider crossdressers, but consider them TRANS-WOMEN JUST LIKE MYSELF. DO YOU KNOW WHY?? BECAUSE THEY DEAL AND THINK THE SAME WAY I DO..

You need everything in black and white..everything has to go in perfectly to be one or the other.. which is not the CASE...

Again let me re-state what I said earlier JUST BECAUSE SOMEONE GETS USED TO THE IDEA OR LIKES THE SATISFACTION THEY GET FROM BEING THE OPPOSITE SEX DOES NOT MAKE THEM A TRANSSEXUAL! NO MATTER HOW GOOD THEY LOOK..HOW MANY SURGERIES HAVE..THE LIST GOES ON.

This is why we have PSYCHOLOGIST and more to deal with TRANSITION. So they know that we are making the right and SANE choice for US..

You count a crossdresser a crossdresser obviously just because they aren't on the road to transition. When I know plenty of men that I stated earlier that are too scared to take the leap, because of either society/family reasons or financial reasons. I still count them as transsexuals. If those individuals voted and the men and women that were into us voted we would be unstoppable.

You on the other hand are silly..

[MrsKellyPierce]

Edited by me. Context is not changed.



Good grief.

Kelly... surely you MUST realize how insanely irrational this is.

A crossdresser cannot be Transsexual but a Drag Queen CAN? WTF???

I suppose the next questions would logically be:

Can a Crossdresser be a Drag Queen? To which you would logically, in fact HAVE to answer "NO" (because then crossdressers could indeed be Transsexual)

Likewise I could also ask, "Well then, can a Drag Queen be a crossdresser?" Which again, you would have to answer "NO" (for the same reason).

Both of those answer are pure silliness. Crossdressers and Drag Queens overlap all the time. I think that is indisputable.

Simply put, you, in fact, having already stated in writing that you were once a Drag Queen, must include them as being possibly Transsexual since you claim the title yourself. It's not hard to see what you're doing. You're unwilling to admit you were ever a crossdresser so you substitute Drag Queen for the title... which really, and I mean this with all due respect, is utterly laughable.

This is insanity and I don't really feel we can continue a conversation if this is your point of view.

Anyway, like I said, I'm not mad. I think you have a good heart. Confused on some issues but you have taken the time to write and I think that is worth something.

Thanks for the discussion and I wish you a good rest of your day.
You don't read a CROSSDRESSER is TYPICALLY A STRAIGHT MAN!

SOMEONE THAT IDENTIFIES AS A WOMAN WAS NEVER EVER A CROSSDRESSER EVER!!!!!!!

Just because they didn't take PILLS or get SURGERIES doesn't mean they aren't TRANSSEXUALS..

Many transsexuals are part timers that other girls may consider crossdressers, but I (me, myself and I) consider them TRANS-WOMEN JUST LIKE MYSELF. DO YOU KNOW WHY?? BECAUSE THEY DEAL AND THINK THE SAME WAY I DO..

You need everything in black and white..everything has to go in perfectly to be one or the other.. which is not the CASE...

Again let me re-state what I said earlier JUST BECAUSE SOMEONE GETS USED TO THE IDEA OR LIKES THE SATISFACTION THEY GET FROM BEING THE OPPOSITE SEX DOES NOT MAKE THEM A TRANSSEXUAL! NO MATTER HOW GOOD THEY LOOK..HOW MANY SURGERIES THEY HAVE..THE LIST GOES ON.

This is why we have PSYCHOLOGIST and more to deal with TRANSITION. So they know that we are making the right and SANE choice for US..

You count a crossdresser a crossdresser obviously just because they aren't on the road to transition. When I know plenty of men that are in fact transsexuals that I stated earlier that are too scared to take the leap, because of either society/family reasons or financial reasons. Yes, I still count them as transsexuals. If those individuals voted and the men and women that were into us voted we would be unstoppable.

You on the other hand are silly..

Drag queen is a job I don't see much difference in a crossdresser and a drag queen when they live as a men and enjoy their life as a man but dress here and there for whatever reason. But when a transsexual does DRAG she is still a TRANSSEXUAL..just like when an UNTRANSITIONED MALE who identifies as a woman is STILL A TRANSSEXUAL even if she does not TRANSITION EVER..she was never A CROSSDRESSER..because a CROSSDRESSER is someone who is happy living as what they were born as! It's not hard to understand...

I think you are the one that's confused sweetheart, not I...

A drag queen is a job..female impersonation is a job..many of these gay men don't even enjoy dressing up they get out of it asap after the show..but they like the $$ and the admiration that comes with it. Many trans-women do drag to not escort and to do pageants, because many want to be a pageant girl.

[GroobyKrissy]

Krissy you are just trying to argue to argue now..

How in god's green earth is asking for data for something you said trying to "argue" ? I'm interested in how you came up with that conclusion.

Are you saying we should all just be able to spout off anything we want and not be questioned for it?

C'mon, Kelly. I just asked you for the data. That's all.

[msbhaven]

You don't read a CROSSDRESSER is TYPICALLY A STRAIGHT MAN!

SOMEONE THAT IDENTIFIES AS A WOMAN WAS NEVER EVER A CROSSDRESSER EVER!!!!!!!

Just because they didn't take PILLS or get SURGERIES doesn't mean they aren't TRANSSEXUALS..

Many transsexuals are part timers that other girls may consider crossdressers, but I (me, myself and I) consider them TRANS-WOMEN JUST LIKE MYSELF. DO YOU KNOW WHY?? BECAUSE THEY DEAL AND THINK THE SAME WAY I DO..

You need everything in black and white..everything has to go in perfectly to be one or the other.. which is not the CASE...

Again let me re-state what I said earlier JUST BECAUSE SOMEONE GETS USED TO THE IDEA OR LIKES THE SATISFACTION THEY GET FROM BEING THE OPPOSITE SEX DOES NOT MAKE THEM A TRANSSEXUAL! NO MATTER HOW GOOD THEY LOOK..HOW MANY SURGERIES HAVE..THE LIST GOES ON.

This is why we have PSYCHOLOGIST and more to deal with TRANSITION. So they know that we are making the right and SANE choice for US..

You count a crossdresser a crossdresser obviously just because they aren't on the road to transition. When I know plenty of men that I stated earlier that are too scared to take the leap, because of either society/family reasons or financial reasons. I still count them as transsexuals. If those individuals voted and the men and women that were into us voted we would be unstoppable.

You on the other hand are silly..

Drag queen is a job I don't see much difference in a crossdresser and a drag queen when they live as a men and enjoy their life that way. But when a transsexual does DRAG she is still a TRANSSEXUAL..just like when an UNTRANSITIONED MALE who identifies as a woman is STILL A TRANSSEXUAL even if she does not TRANSITION EVER..she was never A CROSSDRESSER..because a CROSSDRESSER is someone who is happy living as what they were born as! It's not hard to understand...


You give far more credit then even I would give my pre transition self and that shows a generosity of spirit that should convince most people you don't view yourself as superior or better than others. I have mad respect for that.

[GroobyKrissy]

You don't read a CROSSDRESSER is TYPICALLY A STRAIGHT MAN!

I DO READ AND A DRAG QUEEN IS TYPICALLY A GAY MALE!
(Want the data to back that claim up?)

Kelly,

You're missing the point completely. I am not saying "ALWAYS"... I said "CAN".

Extrapolate:

Gay men (the Drag Queen) can be Transsexual.
Straight men (the Crossdresser) cannot be Transsexual.

This is what you've just said. Does that make ONE OUNCE of sense at all?

[MrsKellyPierce]

I DO READ AND A DRAG QUEEN IS TYPICALLY A GAY MALE!
(Want the data to back that claim up?)

Kelly,

You're missing the point completely. I am not saying "ALWAYS"... I said "CAN".

Extrapolate:

Gay men (the Drag Queen) can be Transsexual.
Straight men (the Crossdresser) cannot be Transsexual.

This is what you've just said. Does that make ONE OUNCE of sense at all?

No I did not say that Krissy..

I said crossdressers, drag queens, and/or transvestites that IDENTIFY AS CIS PEOPLE are not TRANSSEXUALS..the are not like US..

They identify as what they were born! Plain and simple.

To me a transsexual is someone that never felt comfortable in their own skin..they knew upstairs there was something wrong.

I'm sure like MSbhaven said she looks back now and thinks how did ever not know. I'm sure it was always there it just took some time to get out. I would not ever deem crossdresser, even when she thought she was at the time!

Sorry about it.. that's how I feel.

[MrsKellyPierce]

Being a transsexual is state of mind..point blank..thee end..

[GroobyKrissy]

Look Krissy the simple fact is you don't get it. And the reason you don't get it is that you aren't a transsexual. It's OK honey really. I didn't get it too well either before I transitioned.

From the other side of the fence I look back and wonder how I could have been so blind about it despite the fact that I WAS transsexual even though I hadn't transitioned yet. The answer is that I simply lacked the life experience living as my true self to fully comprehend what that would mean. At the time I had also not spent years on HRT, and I promise you that hormones WILL change your brain. But beyond that I had not given up the privileges and security that are part and parcel of being an outwardly hetero male in this society. I hadn't gone through the struggles of a legal name change, hadn't dealt with the misogynist behavior of men towards women, hadn't dealt with the mess that medical care becomes when you are born with male genitalia but live your life as a woman. In short I had no concept of what it was to live my life as a woman or as transitioned transsexual until I actually lived it. Because of that I was completely unqualified to determine questions like, "Is the word tranny offensive?" And I was utterly unsuited to speak for the experience of transsexual women.

I don't think transvestites or cross dressers are less then what I am I just think that they are different from what I am. They have a different life experience and are better able to advocate for their group then I would ever hope to be. I certainly believe that some of them really are transsexuals and that one day they may transition, but until they start that journey they have no place speaking for me or any other transsexual.

You are not less then or inferior to me or to Kelly or Bella or any other transsexual woman, you are simply different from us.

No, Honey... you don't get it.

I have stated publicly, ON THIS BOARD, now that I identify as "transsexual". It is you and your ilk (I know that sounds bad, but for lack of a better word) who refuse to come off of your lofty thrones and bestow the title upon me... which is fine and not my point (and really, I could care less, regardless of what it sounds like). I am strong enough not to need yours or anyone else's validation for myself as a person.

Why am I still not afforded the title? Because I still "live" as a male. Big whoopie. Why should the way you live matter at all if it is "in between the ears" as Kelly postulates. Because I haven't spent thousands of dollars altering my body and instead have chosen to provide a solid and financially viable future for myself I cannot be Transsexual?

Let me ask you this question. If, tomorrow, I went out and changed my name, and started living 100% full time as a woman, are you in fact, saying that suddenly that would "make me Transsexual" and I would be welcomed with open arms by you, by Kelly, and by everyone else? I would suddenly be one of you, instead of one of them?

I would guess no. Y'all would come up with some other silly reason. Oh, you're just modifying your body... you still THINK like a man, and thus you are. Oh, you're too old... you can't be Transsexual unless you've transitioned by the time you're 23. Oh... etc. etc. etc.

Like I have already stated... I could care less about labels and what people think about me. Which is why I put it all out there... everything... my life story out there to read. I don't care. I am who I am and as I get older, I realize that I want to do something that is apart from myself and will live beyond me.

What I care about now is unifying the Transgender umbrella and fighting towards a common goal instead of this backbiting and undermining. Nothing will ever get accomplished otherwise... for all this talk Transsexuals do about wanting equality... I see few involved in the porn industry actually doing anything about it. I am... and it starts with trying to unify this fractured and broken community, which I'm beginning to realize now... is not going to happen on this board.

That's fine. There are other avenues and methods to pursue. I wish I could move forward with the support of some voices here but minus those, I'll still continue with my plans.

[MrsKellyPierce]

No, Honey... you don't get it.

I have stated publicly, ON THIS BOARD, now that I identify as "transsexual". It is you and your ilk (I know that sounds bad, but for lack of a better word) who refuse to come off of your lofty thrones and bestow the title upon me... which is fine and not my point (and really, I could care less, regardless of what it sounds like). I am strong enough not to need yours or anyone else's validation for myself as a person.

Why am I still not afforded the title? Because I still "live" as a male. Big whoopie. Why should the way you live matter at all if it is "in between the ears" as Kelly postulates. Because I haven't spent thousands of dollars altering my body and instead have chosen to provide a solid and financially viable future for myself I cannot be Transsexual?

Let me ask you this question. If, tomorrow, I went out and changed my name, and started living 100% full time as a woman, are you in fact, saying that suddenly that would "make me Transsexual" and I would be welcomed with open arms by you, by Kelly, and by everyone else? I would suddenly be one of you, instead of one of them?

I would guess no. Y'all would come up with some other silly reason. Oh, you're just modifying your body... you still THINK like a man, and thus you are. Oh, you're too old... you can't be Transsexual unless you've transitioned by the time you're 23. Oh... etc. etc. etc.

Like I have already stated... I could care less about labels and what people think about me. Which is why I put it all out there... everything... my life story out there to read. I don't care. I am who I am and as I get older, I realize that I want to do something that is apart from myself and will live beyond me.

What I care about now is unifying the Transgender umbrella and fighting towards a common goal instead of this backbiting and undermining. Nothing will ever get accomplished otherwise... for all this talk Transsexuals do about wanting equality... I see few involved in the porn industry actually doing anything about it. I am... and it starts with trying to unify this fractured and broken community, which I'm beginning to realize now... is not going to happen on this board.

That's fine. There are other avenues and methods to pursue. I wish I could move forward with the support of some voices here but minus those, I'll still continue with my plans.
So wait are you a crossdresser or a transsexual??

Obviously you're transsexual, because you're seem so vehement on being called a crossdresser.

A transsexual again has nothing to do with surgeries or hormones! That's just an added bonus to transitioning.

Transitioning has nothing to do with age or any of the non-sense you are putting on us..

Inside Krissy do you feel as woman or do feel as a man?

I've been an activist since I was 16...

Again Krissy I had no idea you were a crossdresser in the first place so I don't know where your attitude and putting words in my mouth is coming from.

[GroobyKrissy]

Edited by me.


Transsexual is a state of mind.

This one statement undermines the entirety of your post.

If Transsexual is a "state of mind" (only) then it can be changed.

In fairness, I will give you a chance to revise that, or clarify. Otherwise I will continue. Ready. Set. Go.

[MrsKellyPierce]

Edited by me.



This one statement undermines the entirety of your post.

If Transsexual is a "state of mind" (only) then it can be changed.

In fairness, I will give you a chance to revise that, or clarify. Otherwise I will continue. Ready. Set. Go.

There is no reason to edit it

Being a transsexual is identifying as the opposite of what you were born..


We wouldn't know that unless we had BRAINS..everything we do..everything we think..everything we believe..everything we know has to do with the upstairs.

Being a transsexual is a state of mind it's all to do with the upstairs..the need for surgeries, hormones, and the other has to do with our brains telling us we need these things.

[msbhaven]

Edited by me.



This one statement undermines the entirety of your post.

If Transsexual is a "state of mind" (only) then it can be changed.

In fairness, I will give you a chance to revise that, or clarify. Otherwise I will continue. Ready. Set. Go.


I beg your pardon. In an attempt to over simplify it so you couldn't legalize your way around the concept I misspoke. You are correct state of minds are changeable. Let me try again then. Transsexualism is an incongruity between what the brain identifies itself as and the physical body that contains said brain.

That being said, an un transitioned transsexual simply lacks the life experience to dictate to or speak for a transsexual who has been through transition and lives their life as their self identified gender. Just as I can not speak for post operative transsexual woman because I lack their life experience it is wrong for you to attempt to speak for somebody like myself because you lack the life experience that qualifies you to do so.

[GroobyKrissy]

So wait are you a crossdresser or a transsexual??

Obviously you're transsexual, because you're seem so vehement on being called a crossdresser.

A transsexual again has nothing to do with surgeries or hormones! That's just an added bonus to transitioning.

Transitioning has nothing to do with age or any of the non-sense you are putting on us..

Inside Krissy do you feel as woman or do feel as a man?

I've been an activist since I was 16...

Again Krissy I had no idea you were a crossdresser in the first place so I don't know where your attitude and putting words in my mouth is coming from.

Kelly,

Look into that dripping vat of honey you're standing in and figure it out. Figure it out.

And what activism where you engaged in at 16 and have continued since then? I'm not being snotty... truly curious.

[GroobyKrissy]

Well, it seems like Kelly and Msbhaven disagree on what "Transsexual" is. Hmmm... surprise, surprise. One says there is no need to change the stated definition and then the other one changes it. Hmmm... Two equally vocal Transsexuals can't agree on a definition and then put forth ones that are inherently different in meaning.

You two Dears put your heads together and come up with one definition that you both agree on, mmmk? Then get back to me and we'll take it from there.

Thanks Honeys!

[MrsKellyPierce]

Kelly,

Look into that dripping vat of honey you're standing in and figure it out. Figure it out.

And what activism where you engaged in at 16 and have continued since then? I'm not being snotty... truly curious.

I laugh at this..I'm not even going to respond after this.

My activism is out there...whether I did by serving on a board...partaking at events..helping girls get into school as females like I did MYSELF in El Paso, Illinois as a FEMALE with 2500 people..I just rejoined activism on the front lines again with NCTE..

I help young transitioners all the time with my blog. I help the men that are into us.. the list goes on sweety..

So please do not try to invalidate me..

[msbhaven]

No, Honey... you don't get it.

I have stated publicly, ON THIS BOARD, now that I identify as "transsexual". It is you and your ilk (I know that sounds bad, but for lack of a better word) who refuse to come off of your lofty thrones and bestow the title upon me... which is fine and not my point (and really, I could care less, regardless of what it sounds like). I am strong enough not to need yours or anyone else's validation for myself as a person.

Why am I still not afforded the title? Because I still "live" as a male. Big whoopie. Why should the way you live matter at all if it is "in between the ears" as Kelly postulates. Because I haven't spent thousands of dollars altering my body and instead have chosen to provide a solid and financially viable future for myself I cannot be Transsexual?

Let me ask you this question. If, tomorrow, I went out and changed my name, and started living 100% full time as a woman, are you in fact, saying that suddenly that would "make me Transsexual" and I would be welcomed with open arms by you, by Kelly, and by everyone else? I would suddenly be one of you, instead of one of them?

I would guess no. Y'all would come up with some other silly reason. Oh, you're just modifying your body... you still THINK like a man, and thus you are. Oh, you're too old... you can't be Transsexual unless you've transitioned by the time you're 23. Oh... etc. etc. etc.

Like I have already stated... I could care less about labels and what people think about me. Which is why I put it all out there... everything... my life story out there to read. I don't care. I am who I am and as I get older, I realize that I want to do something that is apart from myself and will live beyond me.

What I care about now is unifying the Transgender umbrella and fighting towards a common goal instead of this backbiting and undermining. Nothing will ever get accomplished otherwise... for all this talk Transsexuals do about wanting equality... I see few involved in the porn industry actually doing anything about it. I am... and it starts with trying to unify this fractured and broken community, which I'm beginning to realize now... is not going to happen on this board.

That's fine. There are other avenues and methods to pursue. I wish I could move forward with the support of some voices here but minus those, I'll still continue with my plans.

OK so we are redefining the parameters of the conversation then I suppose. So you identify as transsexual, congratulations. When do you plan to transition? Why haven't you started transition? How much of your time do you spend as Krissy? Do you do anything besides porn shoots as Krissy? What steps have you taken to facilitate transition? Have you be to a therapist for a diagnosis? When do you plan to start HRT? Have you started legal proceedings to legally change your name? Have you started facial hair removal?

All of these questions need answers if you expect people to take your claim of transsexulism seriously.

Just for the record, I've never spent one dime on surgery (don't have the dimes to spend on it) and even if I did it would be about looking younger for me not more feminine (GRS excluded of course). I work a regular 9 to 5 job as my female self and I started transition after I was in my 30s. My one regret is that I didn't start sooner and that I hid it from so many people for so much of my life. I spent my time in front of the camera to feed my ego, spent my time on cam to earn a pay check until a day job came my way, and even was an escort when I wasn't sure if I would ever be hired by anybody as myself. I once thought the same way you do, the same way most pre transition transsexuals do and I'm not trying to insult you because I was brutally insulted when I was first starting out by more then one person. But until you have lived it, you just can't get it the way a girl like myself does.

[MrsKellyPierce]

Kelly,

Look into that dripping vat of honey you're standing in and figure it out. Figure it out.

And what activism where you engaged in at 16 and have continued since then? I'm not being snotty... truly curious.

.

My activism is out there...whether I did it by serving on a board PRIDE...partaking at events..Speaking at colleges...speaking at conventions..helping girls get into school as females like I did MYSELF in El Paso, Illinois as a FEMALE with 2500 people it's out the there interviews are everywhere..I just rejoined activism on the front lines again with NCTE..

I help young transitioners all the time with my blog Secretkelly.com. I help the men that are into us.. the list goes on sweety..

I didn't get into porn till I was 26...STEVEN can tell you that...

The first scene I did was for TSSEDUCTION

[GroobyKrissy]

OK so we are redefining the parameters of the conversation then I suppose. So you identify as transsexual, congratulations. When do you plan to transition? Why haven't you started transition? How much of your time do you spend as Krissy? Do you do anything besides porn shoots as Krissy? What steps have you taken to facilitate transition? Have you be to a therapist for a diagnosis? When do you plan to start HRT? Have you started legal proceedings to legally change your name? Have you started facial hair removal?

All of these questions need answers if you expect people to take your claim of transsexulism seriously.

Just for the record, I've never spent one dime on surgery (don't have the dimes to spend on it) and even if I did it would be about looking younger for me not more feminine (GRS excluded of course). I work a regular 9 to 5 job as my female self and I started transition after I was in my 30s. My one regret is that I didn't start sooner and that I hid it from so many people for so much of my life. I spent my time in front of the camera to feed my ego, spent my time on cam to earn a pay check until a day job came my way, and even was an escort when I wasn't sure if I would ever be hired by anybody as myself. I once thought the same way you do, the same way most pre transition transsexuals do and I'm not trying to insult you because I was brutally insulted when I was first starting out by more then one person. But until you have lived it, you just can't get it the way a girl like myself does.

http://www.hungangels.com/vboard/showthread.php?t=84544

Guess you should maybe get to know who you're talking with before you open your mouth?

So, I will answer all of your questions following your answering of this one. So, your latest definition is the one you want to use... you don't want to further enhance, change, or alter it? I'm asking for a very pointed reason so think it over.

[msbhaven]

Well, it seems like Kelly and Msbhaven disagree on what "Transsexual" is. Hmmm... surprise, surprise. One says there is no need to change the stated definition and then the other one changes it. Hmmm... Two equally vocal Transsexuals can't agree on a definition and then put forth ones that are inherently different in meaning.

You two Dears put your heads together and come up with one definition that you both agree on, mmmk? Then get back to me and we'll take it from there.

Thanks Honeys!


It's not so much that we disagree dear it's that Kelly is more tolerant then I am. She is willing to give people a pass that I am no longer so quick to grant. I respect her tremendously for it but I've grown tired of pre transition transsexuals trying to say they are just like me when in fact they aren't. That aren't by life experience and they aren't by level of commitment to who they are inside. I think it's great that Kelly can see that potential in certain pre transition individuals. Her experience with that group has been far better then mine apparently.

[GroobyKrissy]

.

My activism is out there...whether I did it by serving on a board PRIDE...partaking at events..Speaking at colleges...speaking at conventions..helping girls get into school as females like I did MYSELF in El Paso, Illinois as a FEMALE with 2500 people it's out the there interviews are everywhere..I just rejoined activism on the front lines again with NCTE..

I help young transitioners all the time with my blog Secretkelly.com. I help the men that are into us.. the list goes on sweety..

I didn't get into porn till I was 26...STEVEN can tell you that...

The first scene I did was for TSSEDUCTION

OK, wasn't really asking all that but, thanks for the brief history.

How's that definition coming along...? You willing to stick with yours too (you may want to get together with Msbhaven because you both have fairly different definitions of "Transsexual"... and it really should be a pretty easy to answer since you both claim the title and thus should readily know how to define yourselves... and, you've been an activist since you were 16 and all)?

[MrsKellyPierce]

OK, wasn't really asking all that but, thanks for the brief history.

How's that definition coming along...? You willing to stick with yours too (you may want to get together with Msbhaven because you both have fairly different definitions of "Transsexual"... and it really should be a pretty easy to answer since you both claim the title and thus should readily know how to define yourselves... and, you've been an activist since you were 16 and all)?


Mine is still with identification...hormones/surgeries comes later. Our dyshporia is all different and it tells us when our road/journey is done.

I think you are just cocky and childish.

You obviously feel if noone agrees with your way we are wrong..

It's just not the case..

[GroobyKrissy]

It's not so much that we disagree dear it's that Kelly is more tolerant then I am. She is willing to give people a pass that I am no longer so quick to grant. I respect her tremendously for it but I've grown tired of pre transition transsexuals trying to say they are just like me when in fact they aren't. That aren't by life experience and they aren't by level of commitment to who they are inside. I think it's great that Kelly can see that potential in certain pre transition individuals. Her experience with that group has been far better then mine apparently.

Look... this isn't difficult... a definition is, by definition... a definition. What I'm asking isn't hard so stop making excuses for yourselves.

Your stated definition is inherently different from hers and I can go through them both as to why. However, in the interests of comedy, I'll still allow you both to chat and figure out which one you want to use.

Why and how can two self-identified Transsexuals (one an activist for the cause, and the other with years(?) of experience to back the title up) have different definitions?

Could it be possibly be that "Transsexual" isn't quite the simple thing you both make it out to be? Could it be in this crazy thing called humanity, there are variations that you both have not accounted for? Could that possibility exist?

Nah, I suppose not.

[GroobyKrissy]

Mine is still with identification...hormones/surgeries comes later. Our dyshporia is all different and it tells us when our road/journey is done.

I think you are just cocky and childish.

You obviously feel if noone agrees with your way we are wrong..

It's just not the case..

Think what you want. I asked for a very simple thing and got two different definitions from people who identify as Transsexual. When pushed on that issue... insult. Run. Hide.

I don't think you are wrong. I think you need to re-think your reasoning and have a firm grasp of the issues so that when you move forward with your activism (and I mean that with all sincerity) and come face to face with people who are not sympathetic AT ALL with your cause, you will know how to explain it.

Otherwise it is YOU and all the other 1,000,000's of Transsexuals who have their own definition of the term who end up looking foolish.

Ask a Gay male... Define Gay? You're not going to get as different answers as you two gave.

Ask a Lesbian woman... Define Lesbian? Again... probably pretty straightforward answer.

Why should "Transsexual" be different?

I'm not saying this to argue. I'm saying this because it is a problem, and to move forward, Transsexuals need to define the terms instead of just assuming everyone is talking about the same thing. Clearly... you're not.

[MrsKellyPierce]

Look... this isn't difficult... a definition is, by definition... a definition. What I'm asking isn't hard so stop making excuses for yourselves.

Your stated definition is inherently different from hers and I can go through them both as to why. However, in the interests of comedy, I'll still allow you both to chat and figure out which one you want to use.

Why and how can two self-identified Transsexuals (one an activist for the cause, and the other with years(?) of experience to back the title up) have different definitions?

Could it be possibly be that "Transsexual" isn't quite the simple thing you both make it out to be? Could it be in this crazy thing called humanity, there are variations that you both have not accounted for? Could that possibility exist?

Nah, I suppose not.

Umm Hello Yoda


I believe I said that pages ago..your tactic is to keep typing and putting words in my mouth..until I get bored..so you feel like you won the debate.

Our dysphoria/transition is different for all....

I began living full time as a girl at age 12. I didn't have to unlearn male characteristics or go through many of the things older girls go through. Does that make me more transsexual..NO..we all have a different timeline..journey..experiences...

HOWEVER A CROSSDRESSER by THE DEFINITION IS STILL A CIS PERSON DRESSING UP FOR FETISH PURPOSE OR FUN!

Someone that identifies as a woman deep down..is a TRANSSEXUAL..because they identify as such..


I do not know what your goal is other than the CHIP you have on your shoulder.

Many girls I will admit feel after they get surgeries or take hormones are more woman than another transsexual, but this is not the case. What binds a transsexual with another transsexual is HOW WE IDENTIFY. That's it..plain and simple.

There are beautiful transsexuals, there are average transsexuals, there are ugly transsexuals, there are butch transsexuals, there are lesbian transsexuals, there are tom boy transsexuals, but there are not CROSSDRESSING TRANSSEXUALS.

[msbhaven]

http://www.hungangels.com/vboard/showthread.php?t=84544

Guess you should maybe get to know who you're talking with before you open your mouth?

So, I will answer all of your questions following your answering of this one. So, your latest definition is the one you want to use... you don't want to further enhance, change, or alter it? I'm asking for a very pointed reason so think it over.

There's a good reason I didn't bother to go through all of that, if I'm going to read a book it will be one from my private collection at home not a series of posts on a message board. Besides your posts here in this thread and in the previous one that was deleted better define you then anything you wrote in that thread. I imagine that I can guess the answer to a great many of my questions for you already given what I've seen here.

I've been nothing but polite to you here in attempting to try and help you see over the fence to what it is like on the other side. You on the other hand have managed to grow insulting and belligerent within less then 5 posts.

And BTW that's not the way it works dearie. You can either answer my questions or not I don't care. You are the one after all who is seeking validation for who you are not I. I've never felt the need to write a book on a message board in an attempt to define myself or justify my actions regarding my transition to anybody else. I will tell you this however. Both of my definitions come far closer to the truth of what it is to be transsexual in a few words then all of that mountain of posts that you placed in that linked thread. It's really quite simple. I knew I wasn't a boy before I could even talk, and I lived with that for as long as I could manage, but I didn't fully understand what it was to be a woman or a transsexual woman until I lived my life as one.

If you ever transition and you are honest with yourself, one day you are going to look back on this time and wonder what in the world you were thinking that prompted you to act this way. Kelly, Bella and I have been fairly mild in our criticism of you here, far milder then your reactions to be sure. I can promise you that others out there would not be so kind and would not pull their punches in the least.

So go ahead and devastate me with your legalize that proves how you are right and all of us are wrong. It won't change a thing. You will still be an untransitioned part timer while we will be going on with our lives as the women we always knew we were from the beginning and that we had the courage to become.

[simonisthebest]

kelly u dont have to prove yourself really...i dont even know what u keep talkin with someone who doesnt even assume her true identity, she writing essay about nonsense ,every page

what she need to do ,is to give us a update of her gender,she doesnt even know:yayo:

[GroobyKrissy]

There's a good reason I didn't bother to go through all of that, if I'm going to read a book it will be one from my private collection at home not a series of posts on a message board. Besides your posts here in this thread and in the previous one that was deleted better define you then anything you wrote in that thread. I imagine that I can guess the answer to a great many of my questions for you already given what I've seen here.

I've been nothing but polite to you here in attempting to try and help you see over the fence to what it is like on the other side. You on the other hand have managed to grow insulting and belligerent within less then 5 posts.

And BTW that's not the way it works dearie. You can either answer my questions or not I don't care. You are the one after all who is seeking validation for who you are not I. I've never felt the need to write a book on a message board in an attempt to define myself or justify my actions regarding my transition to anybody else. I will tell you this however. Both of my definitions come far closer to the truth of what it is to be transsexual in a few words then all of that mountain of posts that you placed in that linked thread. It's really quite simple. I knew I wasn't a boy before I could even talk, and I lived with that for as long as I could manage, but I didn't fully understand what it was to be a woman or a transsexual woman until I lived my life as one.

If you ever transition and you are honest with yourself, one day you are going to look back on this time and wonder what in the world you were thinking that prompted you to act this way. Kelly, Bella and I have been fairly mild in our criticism of you here, far milder then your reactions to be sure. I can promise you that others out there would not be so kind and would not pull their punches in the least.

So go ahead and devastate me with your legalize that proves how you are right and all of us are wrong. It won't change a thing. You will still be an untransitioned part timer while we will be going on with our lives as the women we always knew we were from the beginning and that we had the courage to become.

So, despite saying to your face, that I identify as "Transsexual", you just can't resist the parting shot, can you? Just had to get that little barb in, right? Nice... but expected as well.

Look, I don't really have to devastate you. You and Kelly both have done that to yourselves. I didn't have to plan it, manipulate it, or make it happen. You two did it on your own without any help from me by proffering two different definitions for the same word that you both profess to be "experts" on: Transsexual.

Look, I'm not trying to devastate anybody. I'm not trying to be right and I'm not trying to be wrong. I'm illustrating that the issue of Transsexual is far more complicated that you two believe and the disparity between your two definitions (identity and incongruity are vastly different things) proves that fact.

How in god's green earth can anyone take the Transsexual community seriously if it can't even define itself properly and with unity?

[MrsKellyPierce]

So, despite saying to your face, that I identify as "Transsexual", you just can't resist the parting shot, can you? Just had to get that little barb in, right? Nice... but expected as well.

Look, I don't really have to devastate you. You and Kelly both have done that to yourselves. I didn't have to plan it, manipulate it, or make it happen. You two did it on your own without any help from me by proffering two different definitions for the same word that you both profess to be "experts" on: Transsexual.

Look, I'm not trying to devastate anybody. I'm not trying to be right and I'm not trying to be wrong. I'm illustrating that the issue of Transsexual is far more complicated that you two believe and the disparity between your two definitions (identity and incongruity are vastly different things) proves that fact.

How in god's green earth can anyone take the Transsexual community seriously if it can't even define itself properly and with unity?
Girl you are coming off as loco...

Have a nice night

[GroobyKrissy]

Girl you are coming off as loco...

Have a nice night

A fairly expected response.

You have a nice night too. See you around in the activist circles.

[MrsKellyPierce]

[QUOTE=GroobyKrissy;1453660]A fairly expected response.

You have a nice night too. See you around in the activist circles.[/QUOTED] Do you know what dysphoria is?? What you are talking about is timeline and experiences. It all comes back to dysphoria and life stages. All things to do with TRANSITION = TRANSSEXUAL.

Living as a man happily and dressing up for fun, sexual, and fetish purposes has nothing to do with Being a transsexual.

[MrsKellyPierce]

You are basically saying because Ashley Beth's aka Msbehaven and my own opinion differ somewhat on what a transsexual is..we are LOST...you are the only one lost...and I don't know any other activist who wouldn't say the same as me other than to be politically correct for the masses.

I stated many transsexual don't feel you are a real transsexual till you live it day to day and do the necessary treatments it involves to change your body.

That has to do with a difference of dysphoria and feeling their way is the right way.

At the end of the day though we both agree it is about the identification and workings that are going on UPSTAIRS.

So your argument you think you are so clever about is LACKING..

[msbhaven]

You are basically saying because Ashley Beth's aka Msbehaven and my own opinion differ somewhat on what a transsexual is..we are LOST...you are the only one lost...and I don't know any other activist who wouldn't say the same as me other than to be politically correct for the masses.

I stated many transsexual don't feel you are a real transsexual till you live it day to day and do the necessary treatments it involves to change your body.

That has to do with a difference of dysphoria and feeling their way is the right way.

At the end of the day though we both agree it is about the identification and workings that are going on UPSTAIRS.

So your argument you think you are so clever about is LACKING..

It's not even that I don't consider pre transition transsexual real transsexuals. It's simply that I don't believe they should have the right to identify themselves as such in society, because they haven't EARNED the right to yet.

Incongruity between the brain and the body IS a state of mind, a long term state of mind that is. I simply added more wording to the definition to clarify for you that I wasn't using state of mind in the sense of angry happy sad or some other SHORT TERM state of mind, because I could see how you were trying to twist it back in to a nonsensical state of being.

This is why I don't waste my time on pre transition transsexuals and CDs and TVs. You are all like teenagers in high school or at best college students living in a dorm, all sure of yourself and your definitions of the world, smug in your self righteousness and convinced that you know better then the adults who have lived in the real world. You won't take advise, you won't listen to those who have been there before you and experienced the life you only fantasize about, and you are sure that your way, your view is the only right one. What utter nonsense.

[GroobyKrissy]

[QUOTE=GroobyKrissy;1453660]A fairly expected response.

You have a nice night too. See you around in the activist circles.[/QUOTED] Do you know what dysphoria is?? What you are talking about is timeline and experiences. It all comes back to dysphoria and life stages. All things to do with TRANSITION = TRANSSEXUAL.

Living as a man happily and dressing up for fun, sexual, and fetish purposes has nothing to do with Being a transsexual.

No. What I'm arguing AGAINST is that a timeline exists at all.

I think you meant to post this to Msbhaven who clearly thinks that if you never actually transition (whatever that means), you cannot be Transsexual. So again, you two should talk and get your stories straight.

I would argue this when it comes to timelines. The realization that one is Transsexual is a personal and private experience that changes from person to person. It could come at the age of 1 and it could come at the age of 99... it could come never. You could, in fact, die, wholly not understanding the feelings you have and simply adapting to live your life around them. It is not unlike being gay (notice I'm not saying the two are the same thing).

As for dysphoria... no Kelly, never heard the word in my life. Can you educate me, please? (don't do it, I know what it is).

As to your last: I've never said that it does. I've said that it can. You are failing to understand that, and it is an important difference.

[MrsKellyPierce]

It's not even that I don't consider pre transition transsexual real transsexuals. It's simply that I don't believe they should have the right to identify themselves as such in society, because they haven't EARNED the right to yet.

Incongruity between the brain and the body IS a state of mind, a long term state of mind that is. I simply added more wording to the definition to clarify for you that I wasn't using state of mind in the sense of angry happy sad or some other SHORT TERM state of mind, because I could see how you were trying to twist it back in to a nonsensical state of being.

This is why I don't waste my time on pre transition transsexuals and CDs and TVs. You are all like teenagers in high school or at best college students living in a dorm, all sure of yourself and your definitions of the world, smug in your self righteousness and convinced that you know better then the adults who have lived in the real world. You won't take advise, you won't listen to those who have been there before you and experienced the life you only fantasize about, and you are sure that your way, your view is the only right one. What utter nonsense.

No, no, no we are the smug ones..the superior ones...

The ones that were talking about age, surgeries, and other things she mentioned I know I never brought it up. I never say a girl is too old to transition you can grab it at any moment.

I don't understand where her self hate is coming from, you on hormones over there Krissy, going through mood swings??

[MrsKellyPierce]

But many girls again that transition aren't always transsexuals...they just like the glamour and find it more appealing to live as woman..so they get surgeries, get on hormones, and live the life. Many times its for financial reasons, attention, and the list goes on.

A transsexual dear is someone that identifies as the opposite gender of what they were born, bringing me back to my original point. Surgeries and hormones do not make a transssexual!

[msbhaven]

[quote=KellyShore;1453665]


As for dysphoria... no Kelly, never heard the word in my life. Can you educate me, please? (don't do it, I know what it is).
.


This speaks volumes about your ignorance regarding GID and transsexualism. Volumes!

Beg your pardon, sarcasm is easy to miss online.

[GroobyKrissy]

You are basically saying because Ashley Beth's aka Msbehaven and my own opinion differ somewhat on what a transsexual is..we are LOST...you are the only one lost...and I don't know any other activist who wouldn't say the same as me other than to be politically correct for the masses.

I stated many transsexual don't feel you are a real transsexual till you live it day to day and do the necessary treatments it involves to change your body.

That has to do with a difference of dysphoria and feeling their way is the right way.

At the end of the day though we both agree it is about the identification and workings that are going on UPSTAIRS.

So your argument you think you are so clever about is LACKING..

No... you don't agree... unless you're both changing your definitions.

You think it is "identity" - that is, a willful state (you can will yourself to believe anything you want about your "identity"). Also, as such, an identity can change by force of will.

She believes it is (as stated) an incongruity between the body and the mind. Incongruity implies defect by definition.

I believe neither is correct on their face.

[GroobyKrissy]

[quote=GroobyKrissy;1453675]


This speaks volumes about your ignorance regarding GID and transsexualism. Volumes!

Beg your pardon, sarcasm is easy to miss online.

Are you freakin' serious. You actually thought I was serious? Good lord.

[msbhaven]

A transsexual dear is someone that identifies as the opposite gender of what they were born, bringing me back to my original point. Surgeries and hormones do not make a transssexual!


Totally agreed but girls who DON'T transition at all haven't earned the right to be identified in the same group with those who have in my opinion.

[MrsKellyPierce]

No... you don't agree... unless you're both changing your definitions.

You think it is "identity" - that is, a willful state (you can will yourself to believe anything you want about your "identity"). Also, as such, an identity can change by force of will.

She believes it is (as stated) an incongruity between the body and the mind. Incongruity implies defect by definition.

I believe neither is correct on their face.

Krissy all knowing please define to me what a transsexual is since you think some how we disagree.. especially me who has been living her life as a female since age 12.

She said it had to do with the upstairs just like me...I don't know where you are coming from!

The only difference between her and I is..if you haven't lived it you haven't earned the right to call yourself a transsexual.

That was the only difference.

[msbhaven]

[quote=msbhaven;1453680]

Are you freakin' serious. You actually thought I was serious? Good lord.

Why not? It made about as much sense as the rest of what you have posted tonight. Like I said sarcasm is easy to miss online.

[GroobyKrissy]

It's not even that I don't consider pre transition transsexual real transsexuals. It's simply that I don't believe they should have the right to identify themselves as such in society, because they haven't EARNED the right to yet.

Incongruity between the brain and the body IS a state of mind, a long term state of mind that is. I simply added more wording to the definition to clarify for you that I wasn't using state of mind in the sense of angry happy sad or some other SHORT TERM state of mind, because I could see how you were trying to twist it back in to a nonsensical state of being.

This is why I don't waste my time on pre transition transsexuals and CDs and TVs. You are all like teenagers in high school or at best college students living in a dorm, all sure of yourself and your definitions of the world, smug in your self righteousness and convinced that you know better then the adults who have lived in the real world. You won't take advise, you won't listen to those who have been there before you and experienced the life you only fantasize about, and you are sure that your way, your view is the only right one. What utter nonsense.

So you can "earn" your Transsexual badge... NICE! Brownies, here I come!

"waste your time..." And you and Kelly think that no "superiority complex" exists? Of course, even for everything Kelly has said about that not existing thus far, she will never take you to task for what you've said, right? I mean, all YOU Transsexuals always stick together and such.

You think I fantasize about your life? Hooking? You've kind of stated before that is how you make your living, at least partially, right? Yeah, that's the dream for me. Look, I don't mind that you escort... more power to you. Don't think for one second I fantasize about living your life though. Been there... done it.... IN SPADES.

My life suits me just fine. I'm making changes in it, which you would know if you had cared enough to read. As of right now, you're just sounding more and more foolish as you make assumptions about me that are entirely incorrect.

[msbhaven]

No... you don't agree... unless you're both changing your definitions.

You think it is "identity" - that is, a willful state (you can will yourself to believe anything you want about your "identity"). Also, as such, an identity can change by force of will.

She believes it is (as stated) an incongruity between the body and the mind. Incongruity implies defect by definition.

I believe neither is correct on their face.

Now you are just being willfully obtuse, or at least I hope you are because the alternative doesn't bare contemplation.

[MrsKellyPierce]

If you are the one that is going to speak for our community I'm worried..I will just say that Krissy...

[MrsKellyPierce]

So you can "earn" your Transsexual badge... NICE! Brownies, here I come!

"waste your time..." And you and Kelly think that no "superiority complex" exists? Of course, even for everything Kelly has said about that not existing thus far, she will never take you to task for what you've said, right? I mean, all YOU Transsexuals always stick together and such.

You think I fantasize about your life? Hooking? You've kind of stated before that is how you make your living, at least partially, right? Yeah, that's the dream for me. Look, I don't mind that you escort... more power to you. Don't think for one second I fantasize about living your life though. Been there... done it.... IN SPADES.

My life suits me just fine. I'm making changes in it, which you would know if you had cared enough to read. As of right now, you're just sounding more and more foolish as you make assumptions about me that are entirely incorrect.

I don't think she was talking about the escorting part, I think she was talking about crossdresses that would like to look more feminine. I have loads of crossdresses that are obsessed with me or say they wish they looked like me. As do Eva Lin, Kimber, and the list goes on.

I stated earlier that some trans-women feel that they are more female than others after surgeries/hormones. I said that..YOU DON'T READ..you just TYPE BS..

[MrsKellyPierce]

So you can "earn" your Transsexual badge... NICE! Brownies, here I come!

"waste your time..." And you and Kelly think that no "superiority complex" exists? Of course, even for everything Kelly has said about that not existing thus far, she will never take you to task for what you've said, right? I mean, all YOU Transsexuals always stick together and such.

You think I fantasize about your life? Hooking? You've kind of stated before that is how you make your living, at least partially, right? Yeah, that's the dream for me. Look, I don't mind that you escort... more power to you. Don't think for one second I fantasize about living your life though. Been there... done it.... IN SPADES.

My life suits me just fine. I'm making changes in it, which you would know if you had cared enough to read. As of right now, you're just sounding more and more foolish as you make assumptions about me that are entirely incorrect.

I don't think she was talking about the escorting part, I think she was talking about crossdresses that would like to look more feminine. I have loads of crossdresses that are obsessed with me or say they wish they looked like me. As do Eva Lin, Kimber, and the list goes on.

I stated earlier that some trans-women feel that they are more female than others after surgeries/hormones. I said that..YOU DON'T READ..you just TYPE BS..

And then talking crap about her being an escort on an ADULT BOARD..really?? Aren't you a porn model?? Girl come on..stop being shady..you are being shady in a round about way. You know it and I know it.

Stop acting twelve.

[GroobyKrissy]

Krissy all knowing please define to me what a transsexual is since you think some how we disagree.. especially me who has been living her life as a female since age 12.

She said it had to do with the upstairs just like me...I don't know where you are coming from!

The only difference between her and I is..if you haven't lived it you haven't earned the right to call yourself a transsexual.

That was the only difference.

Transsexual is a state of being that one can know inherently or come to understand through experience, reflecting a true belief that one's assigned gender at birth is incorrect.

Transgender is the state of choosing not to associate with one's assigned gender at birth or not to conform to societal gender binaries (i.e. - male and female).

Pretty simple really.

[MrsKellyPierce]

Transsexual is a state of being that one can know inherently or come to understand through experience, reflecting a true belief that one's assigned gender at birth is incorrect.

Transgender is the state of choosing not to associate with one's assigned gender at birth or not to conform to societal gender binaries (i.e. - male and female).

Pretty simple really.

That is not what a transgender is...transgender is an umbrella term for:

intersexed, transsexual, gender queer, non-conforming, drag queen, transvestite, crossdresser, and the list goes on..

So it's a state of being..which means in ones mind...exactly what I said hours ago...

And the transition road varies for every transsexual like I said hours ago.

So you basically agreed with me??

HUH

[msbhaven]

So you can "earn" your Transsexual badge... NICE! Brownies, here I come!

"waste your time..." And you and Kelly think that no "superiority complex" exists? Of course, even for everything Kelly has said about that not existing thus far, she will never take you to task for what you've said, right? I mean, all YOU Transsexuals always stick together and such.

You think I fantasize about your life? Hooking? You've kind of stated before that is how you make your living, at least partially, right? Yeah, that's the dream for me. Look, I don't mind that you escort... more power to you. Don't think for one second I fantasize about living your life though. Been there... done it.... IN SPADES.

My life suits me just fine. I'm making changes in it, which you would know if you had cared enough to read. As of right now, you're just sounding more and more foolish as you make assumptions about me that are entirely incorrect.

Eye rolls. I have been a whore before but no I neither cam model or escort any more. I work a real job with a real company and collect a real pay check at a place where people either call me Ma'am or by my legal name. So talk about assumptions and lack of knowledge about somebody's life. Sheesh.

As I said before I don't care to read a damn book to glean what is going on in somebody's life. I gave you a chance to tell me about the changes in your life through a series of simple questions. You chose not to answer and go off on a tangent about the difference in view points between Kelly and myself.

And you are still on that tangent. Honey we are laughing at you at this point because you look so foolish. I know where she stands on this topic and respect her for her position and she knows where I stand on it and respects my right to my opinion. What's really funny is that you keep trying to hammer that wedge in when the difference between Kelly and I on this is close enough to split a hair especially when compared to the gulf that separates your opinions from ours.

[GroobyKrissy]

I don't think she was talking about the escorting part, I think she was talking about crossdresses that would like to look more feminine. I have loads of crossdresses that are obsessed with me or say they wish they looked like me. As do Eva Lin, Kimber, and the list goes on.

I stated earlier that some trans-women feel that they are more female than others after surgeries/hormones. I said that..YOU DON'T READ..you just TYPE BS..

And then talking crap about her being an escort on an ADULT BOARD..really?? Aren't you a porn model?? Girl come on..stop being shady..you are being shady in a round about way. You know it and I know it.

Stop acting twelve.

Kelly... I knew what she meant.

It was a pointed answer to an obvious attempt of "looking down the nose". Normally speaking, if you say someone fantasizes about your life, you think you have something they want. I knew exactly what she was talking about and picked out something incongruous to highlight.

Yeah... I'll try writing in English next time so you can read and understand it. Sorry.

[GroobyKrissy]

That is not what a transgender is...transgender is an umbrella term for:

intersexed, transsexual, gender queer, non-conforming, drag queen, transvestite, crossdresser, and the list goes on..

So it's a state of being..which means in ones mind...exactly what I said hours ago...

And the transition road varies for every transsexual like I said hours ago.

So you basically agreed with me??

HUH

mmm... kind of.

My definition of Transsexual is pretty different from yours and vastly different from Msbhaven's.

You can't define a word just by throwing other words at it, Kelly. You can't say, "A frog is a toad". You can't say Transgender is just an umbrella for x, y, z... you have to give the word a definition. But, we probably agree pretty closely on what Transgender is.

Transsexual... definitely not. Look at my definition and then look at yours. The differences are there.

[msbhaven]

Kelly... I knew what she meant.

It was a pointed answer to an obvious attempt of "looking down the nose". Normally speaking, if you say someone fantasizes about your life, you think you have something they want. I knew exactly what she was talking about and picked out something incongruous to highlight.

Yeah... I'll try writing in English next time so you can read and understand it. Sorry.


Ohhhh yeah you put me in my place with that shot right? Too bad you didn't know the gun was loaded with blanks. Even if I were still in that line of work it wouldn't have bothered me. Society may frown on it but I don't and never have. You think I'm going to be ashamed that somebody who runs her own porn site implied that I was a whore and beneath her on a porn message board? ROTFLMAO. You really are delusional aren't you?

[MrsKellyPierce]

mmm... kind of.

My definition of Transsexual is pretty different from yours and vastly different from Msbhaven's.

You can't define a word just by throwing other words at it, Kelly. You can't say, "A frog is a toad". You can't say Transgender is just an umbrella for x, y, z... you have to give the word a definition. But, we probably agree pretty closely on what Transgender is.

Transsexual... definitely not. Look at my definition and then look at yours. The differences are there.
You identify former crossdressers as crossdressers when in fact they may of been transsexuals all along. You deem someone a crossdresser, just because maybe a year prior they didn't want to transition or were scared to. I deem someone as a transsexual always if they ever feel the need to transition or feel something is wrong or missing in their life gender wise.

That's the only difference we have...


You just like pulling crap out your butt..

You have obviously given yourself the title of transsexual sage when you clearly aren't...

[GroobyKrissy]

Eye rolls. I have been a whore before but no I neither cam model or escort any more. I work a real job with a real company and collect a real pay check at a place where people either call me Ma'am or by my legal name. So talk about assumptions and lack of knowledge about somebody's life. Sheesh.

As I said before I don't care to read a damn book to glean what is going on in somebody's life. I gave you a chance to tell me about the changes in your life through a series of simple questions. You chose not to answer and go off on a tangent about the difference in view points between Kelly and myself.

And you are still on that tangent. Honey we are laughing at you at this point because you look so foolish. I know where she stands on this topic and respect her for her position and she knows where I stand on it and respects my right to my opinion. What's really funny is that you keep trying to hammer that wedge in when the difference between Kelly and I on this is close enough to split a hair especially when compared to the gulf that separates your opinions from ours.

I could care less about if you two climb into bed tonight and cuddle closely.

The fact of the matter is that you two have found a common "enemy" and just won't face the fact that your own stated definitions of "Transsexual" are different.

At this point, that is my only point. You won't even admit that.

INCONGRUITY? So Transsexual is a "mistake" ? That is what the word implies. Beauty vs. Ugly. Chaos vs. Order.

Is that REALLY how you see Transsexual? I've given you ample time to reword or revisit or redefine or re-something. You haven't done so and thus I think I have to assume this is your definition.

Does nobody else see ANY issue with defining Transsexual as an incongruity?

[msbhaven]

mmm... kind of.

My definition of Transsexual is pretty different from yours and vastly different from Msbhaven's.

You can't define a word just by throwing other words at it, Kelly. You can't say, "A frog is a toad". You can't say Transgender is just an umbrella for x, y, z... you have to give the word a definition. But, we probably agree pretty closely on what Transgender is.

Transsexual... definitely not. Look at my definition and then look at yours. The differences are there.

So just out of curiosity if I were out and about and ran in to you in your male mode. Should I call you sir? Ma'am? Maybe one or both with a wink to let you know I still thought you were transsexual? Do you know what somebody calls me when I am out and about or at work and they don't know my name? Try ma'am or miss or (if I'm very lucky) young lady. And that's the case every single day of my life. Can you really not tell the difference between you and I on the gender scale?

[MrsKellyPierce]

I could care less about if you two climb into bed tonight and cuddle closely.

The fact of the matter is that you two have found a common "enemy" and just won't face the fact that your own stated definitions of "Transsexual" are different.

At this point, that is my only point. You won't even admit that.

INCONGRUITY? So Transsexual is a "mistake" ? That is what the word implies. Beauty vs. Ugly. Chaos vs. Order.

Is that REALLY how you see Transsexual? I've given you ample time to reword or revisit or redefine or re-something. You haven't done so and thus I think I have to assume this is your definition.

Does nobody else see ANY issue with defining Transsexual as an incongruity?
I honestly think other guys think you are confused tbh..

Look what Simon said pages back..

[MrsKellyPierce]

I have sent and shared my thoughts with several people and other trans on my facebook they also think you are confused...

So yeah....

Girl you are making a fool out of yourself, I hope once your hormones kick in and you live the life 24/7 you will look back and see how your insight changes..

[GroobyKrissy]

You identify former crossdressers as crossdressers when in fact they may of been transsexuals all along. You deem someone a crossdresser, just because maybe a year prior they didn't want to transition or were scared to. I deem someone as a transsexual always if they ever feel the need to transition or feel something is wrong or missing in their life gender wise.

That's the only difference we have...

You just like pulling crap out your butt..

You have obviously given yourself the title of transsexual sage when you clearly aren't...

Feelings vs belief.

Do you see where your definition is so much more vague than mine?

Mine, while allowing for a larger audience, puts a much tighter structure into it. It must be a belief... not just a feeling. It must be true... not just something you decide one day.

I don't accept just "Oh, I think I'm going to be Transsexual today"... your definition, based on "identity" based on feeling, with no timeline, does.

What I do allow for is you being born in the middle of Redneck City, struggling your whole life with a belief, pushing it down, joining the football team, marrying, having kids, etc. Then discovering one day that hey... people actually struggle with this feeling and there is a name for it. I may be... Transsexual.

That being said, I also belief that nobody else but YOURSELF can really, truly know if you're Transsexual or not, since you are really the only one who truly knows and can discern your own motives.

[msbhaven]

I could care less about if you two climb into bed tonight and cuddle closely.

The fact of the matter is that you two have found a common "enemy" and just won't face the fact that your own stated definitions of "Transsexual" are different.

At this point, that is my only point. You won't even admit that.

INCONGRUITY? So Transsexual is a "mistake" ? That is what the word implies. Beauty vs. Ugly. Chaos vs. Order.

Is that REALLY how you see Transsexual? I've given you ample time to reword or revisit or redefine or re-something. You haven't done so and thus I think I have to assume this is your definition.

Does nobody else see ANY issue with defining Transsexual as an incongruity?

Yes I see my penis as an incongruity! Every time I look in the mirror when I'm nude and I see it it bothers me. It is an incongruity, a birth defect in my eyes that I would love to have corrected some day.

No I don't see that incongruity as a mistake I see it as lesson in life. I see at as a cross I was given to bear in this life so that I might better understand what it is to be a woman, and to not take it for granted. More and more I believe in reincarnation of the soul, and more and more I believe that life is a lesson meant to make us better.

I'm not perfect and maybe it is wrong for me to feel as I do about un transitioned transsexuals, but damn it I worked hard to get here. I sacrificed to be who I am. I gave up friends family, home, and past to start over so I could be who I was meant to be. And I'm sorry but I don't have enough generosity in my heart yet to listen to somebody piss and moan about being to old or to poor for surgery or I have a family, or I have a career but I still think that I should be considered your equal. Like Hell. You want that? Go out and earn it.

Respect isn't given dear it's earned! Being identified as a woman when you were born with the birth defect of a penis is respect earned through sacrifice and effort.

Go try some of both and get back to me and I might give more respect to your opinion on this subject then. But be warned, if you do you might just fine that your opinion changes as well.

[MrsKellyPierce]

Feelings vs belief.

Do you see where your definition is so much more vague than mine?

Mine, while allowing for a larger audience, puts a much tighter structure into it. It must be a belief... not just a feeling. It must be true... not just something you decide one day.

I don't accept just "Oh, I think I'm going to be Transsexual today"... your definition, based on "identity" based on feeling, with no timeline, does.

What I do allow for is you being born in the middle of Redneck City, struggling your whole life with a belief, pushing it down, joining the football team, marrying, having kids, etc. Then discovering one day that hey... people actually struggle with this feeling and there is a name for it. I may be... Transsexual.

That being said, I also belief that nobody else but YOURSELF can really, truly know if you're Transsexual or not, since you are really the only one who truly knows your own motives. If you say so...transsexuals sage 2014

[GroobyKrissy]

I honestly think other guys think you are confused tbh..

Look what Simon said pages back..

Look at the entirety of Simon's post history towards me, Kelly.

Think for yourself.

[GroobyKrissy]

Ohhhh yeah you put me in my place with that shot right? Too bad you didn't know the gun was loaded with blanks. Even if I were still in that line of work it wouldn't have bothered me. Society may frown on it but I don't and never have. You think I'm going to be ashamed that somebody who runs her own porn site implied that I was a whore and beneath her on a porn message board? ROTFLMAO. You really are delusional aren't you?

I didn't think anything of the sort. You stated that I fantasized about your life. I picked one portion out of it that I was fairly sure you had stated before (that you escorted) and recently to highlight that I don't.

My sincere apologies that I was incorrect about that. I remembered incorrectly and failed to do the homework before I wrote it and just chose to rely on my memory instead.

I never said you were beneath me and never implied it either. In fact, I stated plainly that I've been there done that and don't have a problem with it. I just don't "fantasize" about living that lifestyle again. I could care less if people escort to make a living or supplement their incomes. I don't need to and don't fantasize about doing it again.

[MrsKellyPierce]

Look at the entirety of Simon's post history towards me, Kelly.

Think for yourself.

I do I think you are loco and pulling at hairs and putting words in transsexuals mouths.

You were accusing me about age/passibility etc when I never even brought that up.

Psychological reflecting on me and other transsexuals.

I am shocked you write for a magazine or will be involved in anything to do with activism.

If that's the case I'm scared...

Feeling/Belief/Thoughts etc all the same thing.


Thoughts of suicide/feeling suicidal you are labeled as suicidal are they not?

I don't think anyone just BELIEVES right off the bat or know what's going on at first. They have feelings..sparks of thoughts...the BELIEF of who you are comes later when you find it.

So again girl potato potatoe

[dderek123]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6MMEsD_Avo

[GroobyKrissy]

So just out of curiosity if I were out and about and ran in to you in your male mode. Should I call you sir? Ma'am? Maybe one or both with a wink to let you know I still thought you were transsexual? Do you know what somebody calls me when I am out and about or at work and they don't know my name? Try ma'am or miss or (if I'm very lucky) young lady. And that's the case every single day of my life. Can you really not tell the difference between you and I on the gender scale?

OK, now we're getting to the truth of the matter.

See, here is the real incongruity.

You SAY that Transsexual is "in the mind".

Yet your ACTIONS AND LACK OF RESPECT for someone says otherwise. If it is "in the mind" as you SAY, then why should the outward appearance make any difference at all? Why should being called a male or female name matter at all?

Your actions and your definition do not mesh. That is where I have an issue.

Can I see that you've made choices that I haven't made as far as "transition" goes? Sure.

Do I wish that I had all the knowledge available to me now when I was a child so I could have made similar decisions? Sure. I did not.

Do I regret any of the decisions, personally or professionally that I've made over the course of my life regarding transitioning? Not really. I'm completely happy with who I am and where I am in life. I've got a secure job, live well, have a close circle of friends, and sleep well at night.

Do I think you, making your decisions, and me making mine, makes you MORE Transsexual than me, as you obviously do (i.e. - have "earned" more of the title)? Emphatically, NO. It just means you made different choices along the way based upon your own experiences.

That is all. again... pretty simple.

[GroobyKrissy]

Feeling/Belief/Thoughts etc all the same thing.

You think that feeling and believing is the same?

You think that a thought equals a belief or a feeling?

Oh, ok. Tell that to your husband next time you see him. Just say, I feel that I love you. He'll know what you mean. Or just say, I had a thought that I love you.

Sheesh.

Anyway, I do have to go. It has stopped snowing here and I must make my way home. Y'all can have the last words and the last laugh as you two cuddle up and regale yourselves of how you gave a beatdown to Krissy.

Thanks for the conversation / discussion to both of you. I don't agree with either of you entirely but I'm glad there are people out there like yourselves who care enough about the issues to talk them over.

I wish you both the best in your lives and all the happiness it can bring you. Be well and enjoy your nights.

[Felicia Katt]

Most of this post is self plagarized and adapted from ones I did starting back in 2007 and 7 years later, we are no closer to peace and understanding on the issue. If it was beating a dead horse before, it's battering its fossilized skeleton now. I swore the last time this never ending debate heated up that I'd stay clear of the inevitable further flaming, but if I have 9 lives, maybe this topic is worth risking getting scorched to death yet one more time.


In Alice in Wonderland, Lewis Carroll wrote

"When I use a word...it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less....The question is...which is to be master -- that's all."

That may be ok for Humpty Dumpty and those with their own agendas, but the rest of us have actual dictionaries for more consistency and clarity.

Transgender: the state of one's gender identity or gender expression not matching one's assigned sex, independent of sexual orientation.

Transsexualism: A consistently strong desire to change one's anatomical gender.
Transsexuals may dress and behave as individuals of the opposite sex, and may choose to use hormones or surgery to develop desired secondary sex characteristics.

Notice here that it is about desire. Not actions. It says may, not has to or does or must. There is nothing about always. Being a transsexual is about how you feel, not what you do or cannot do in pursuit of those feelings.

No amount of surgery or hormones makes someone a transsexual and no shortfall of them prevents anyone from being one. Some people on this board, and elsewhere, for their own reasons, want to make actual physical transition or some sort of economic surrender or social sacrifice part of the the price of admission but its not part of the real terms of membership.

To be sure, Transsexualism is distinct from transvestism (cross-dressing) and does not always indicate a change in the individual's sexual preference.

Transvestism is the practice of dressing and acting in a style or manner traditionally associated with the opposite sex.

Cross-dressing is wearing clothing and other accoutrements commonly associated with the opposite sex within a particular society.

Potato Potatoe really.

Danny partridge, a formerly active board member had a more sardonic set of definitions.

transsexual: a term used by persons born as males who dress and/or act as females to describe themselves.

cross dresser: a term used by those above to denigrate others who they don't think look as feminine as they do.

transvestite: a term used by people not in the scene to describe everyone above.

Sadly, his definitions are closer to what many seem to follow in practice. I think which really should only go with the actual definitions. Which means we have to remember crossdressing is a verb not an adjective. To decribe or define someone in this community solely by their outer actions is wrong. If a person does not desire to change their gender, then their crossdressing may ultimately be just be a kink or a fantasy. Same if someone physically transitions for other less legitimate reasons. Neither is a sincere expression of gender. Actions don't define it. Other people's opinions don't either. Its up to the individual. They can do so by their words, or their actions or both. Or neither. Not every person who "crossdresses" is a TS. But some certainly are. Not every one who "transitions" is a TS. Some certainly are not.

When you try to say someone is "just a crossdresser" or "part time" or call them a dude, or use male pronouns or otherwise suggest they are less worthy of respect or shelter under the transgender umbrella, you are trying to use terminology to demean rather than define and to exclude rather than explain. words for their meanness rather than their meaning.

There is an old joke that goes like this:

You know the difference between a crossdresser and a transsexual?

about 2 years.

Every transsexual has been through a period of doubt and despair and discovery. Some found their path through the looking glass into this wonderland right away, some wandered around lost for a while, and some others took a wrong turn on a dead end road. As Carroll also said "If you don't know where you are going, any road will get you there.” But its the jouney, not the route and not the destination that defines us and to minimize or belittle other travellers is wrong or counterproductive. You never get traction towards tolerance and acceptance by throwing others under the bus, all that ever really does is to mess up the drive train that a unified community can be towards progress and make the movement that the bus represents unattractive for other groups to want to ride with in support and solidarity.

Peace

FK

[TempestTS]

We are all simply Human.

Ill not waste time over words and labels because they only matter if you think they matter.

[msbhaven]

Most of this post is self plagarized and adapted from ones I did starting back in 2007 and 7 years later, we are no closer to peace and understanding on the issue. If it was beating a dead horse before, it's battering its fossilized skeleton now. I swore the last time this never ending debate heated up that I'd stay clear of the inevitable further flaming, but if I have 9 lives, maybe this topic is worth risking getting scorched to death yet one more time.


In Alice in Wonderland, Lewis Carroll wrote

"When I use a word...it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less....The question is...which is to be master -- that's all."

That may be ok for Humpty Dumpty and those with their own agendas, but the rest of us have actual dictionaries for more consistency and clarity.

Transgender: the state of one's gender identity or gender expression not matching one's assigned sex, independent of sexual orientation.

Transsexualism: A consistently strong desire to change one's anatomical gender.
Transsexuals may dress and behave as individuals of the opposite sex, and may choose to use hormones or surgery to develop desired secondary sex characteristics.

Notice here that it is about desire. Not actions. It says may, not has to or does or must. There is nothing about always. Being a transsexual is about how you feel, not what you do or cannot do in pursuit of those feelings.

No amount of surgery or hormones makes someone a transsexual and no shortfall of them prevents anyone from being one. Some people on this board, and elsewhere, for their own reasons, want to make actual physical transition or some sort of economic surrender or social sacrifice part of the the price of admission but its not part of the real terms of membership.

To be sure, Transsexualism is distinct from transvestism (cross-dressing) and does not always indicate a change in the individual's sexual preference.

Transvestism is the practice of dressing and acting in a style or manner traditionally associated with the opposite sex.

Cross-dressing is wearing clothing and other accoutrements commonly associated with the opposite sex within a particular society.

Potato Potatoe really.

Danny partridge, a formerly active board member had a more sardonic set of definitions.

transsexual: a term used by persons born as males who dress and/or act as females to describe themselves.

cross dresser: a term used by those above to denigrate others who they don't think look as feminine as they do.

transvestite: a term used by people not in the scene to describe everyone above.

Sadly, his definitions are closer to what many seem to follow in practice. I think which really should only go with the actual definitions. Which means we have to remember crossdressing is a verb not an adjective. To decribe or define someone in this community solely by their outer actions is wrong. If a person does not desire to change their gender, then their crossdressing may ultimately be just be a kink or a fantasy. Same if someone physically transitions for other less legitimate reasons. Neither is a sincere expression of gender. Actions don't define it. Other people's opinions don't either. Its up to the individual. They can do so by their words, or their actions or both. Or neither. Not every person who "crossdresses" is a TS. But some certainly are. Not every one who "transitions" is a TS. Some certainly are not.

When you try to say someone is "just a crossdresser" or "part time" or call them a dude, or use male pronouns or otherwise suggest they are less worthy of respect or shelter under the transgender umbrella, you are trying to use terminology to demean rather than define and to exclude rather than explain. words for their meanness rather than their meaning.

There is an old joke that goes like this:

You know the difference between a crossdresser and a transsexual?

about 2 years.

Every transsexual has been through a period of doubt and despair and discovery. Some found their path through the looking glass into this wonderland right away, some wandered around lost for a while, and some others took a wrong turn on a dead end road. As Carroll also said "If you don't know where you are going, any road will get you there.” But its the jouney, not the route and not the destination that defines us and to minimize or belittle other travellers is wrong or counterproductive. You never get traction towards tolerance and acceptance by throwing others under the bus, all that ever really does is to mess up the drive train that a unified community can be towards progress and make the movement that the bus represents unattractive for other groups to want to ride with in support and solidarity.

Peace

FK

That is a perfectly well thought out rational and sensible dissertation on transsexualism, cross dressing, and gender identity disorder. And I don't have a problem with the theories contained there in.

Here is where it becomes problematic however, for the practical mechanics required to live in the real world something more is needed to define a transsexualism then a person's say so about their own desires. I'm sorry but if you follow that definition to it's natural conclusion then what the Christian Conservatives have been saying all along becomes fact, a man would in fact be able to simply say he has a persistent desire to be female to label himself as a transsexual. That is certainly not an acceptable position to anybody.

So to legally define what a transsexual is we need more then an individual's say so. What do we need? Well for years the standard has been, and still is at least for GRS or an Orchiectomy, that you have to have lived as a woman full time for a specified period of time, and you must have a letter from a certified therapist that designates you as a person diagnosed with GID. Most states still require completion of GRS to change your gender designation on your ID. In fact hormones usually require a letter from a therapist as well. And in some cases HRT is required before GRS.

Now those standards are starting to change and we are seeing a great many efforts to reduce the burden of proof for transsexuals and thus the financial burden required to transition. I applaud those initiatives within reasonable limits. I still believe therapy should be a requirement for GRS or an Orchi, but I think the need for a year or more of therapy and counseling before HRT is a bit much to ask. 12 months on HRT didn't move the needle enough physically for me that it was completely irreversible. And the emotional adjustment was more then adequate to determine that I was on the right path for myself. However other people's mileage may vary and I accept that HRT is an imperfect science at this time. The point is that it is becoming easier to start transition and that is a good thing. However transition is not a static condition nor is it simply dreaming about the future. It is a series of steps necessary to bring our outer shell in to alignment with our inner core.

Ultimately this isn't about lowering others or raising myself up, but about how we are perceived in the wider community and which rights are going to be granted to whom. And that is the other area where a legal definition for transsexual is needed. Being an undiagnosed, untransitioned part time transsexual is simply not going to work when it comes to defining the rights and privileges of being a fully recognized transsexual. The simple ugly truth is that at some point we all have to make a restroom choice and live with it because society is not going to let us bounce back and forth between the two, and quite frankly they shouldn't have to. And if you want to be a lady then you need to act like one all the time, not just when it is convenient to you. Because when it comes to gender you can be one or the other but not both at least where society is concerned.

In short if you are an undiagnosed untransitioned transsexual you are free to call yourself whatever you want. You are free to live your life however you choose, but don't expect to live in both worlds and share in the same rights and privileges granted to transitioning or transitioned transsexuals. You can't have your cake and eat it too. And it's insulting for a person to continue to enjoy the security and privilege of a male identity while simultaneously trying to claim the identity of a transsexual woman. It belittles the sacrifice and achievement of transition, and it makes a mockery of the concept of transsexualism.

[Felicia Katt]

Someone's different way of expressing their gender is insulting, belittling, and a mockery to yours. Thank goodness no one would ever consider that even remotely smug, self righteousness, or superior. LOL

And by all means, let's include the bathroom freak out standard in the discussion. Because a fearful ignorant restroom reaction is always the best driver for social policy and because no women or "fully recognized transsexuals" ever misbehave in bathrooms and there are no gender neutral laws against lewd or indecent behavior in them.

People should distinguish themselves by their own character and behavior not by trying to define or more accurately demean others. Put more simply, do (and define) unto others as you would have them do (and define) unto you.

Peace

FK