left wing whiners with apparent passive aggressive tendencies, who can't make a salie

[glenntinnyc]

This thread stems from the Pete Seeger memorial

firstly I would like to know why so many on the left make fun of the GOP , Tea Party and Nascar yet can't ever seem to do anything but come across as self important.

Also do do you think it's hostile and passive aggressive to rebut with a snarky comment first in a political discussion then apologize further down the line in attempt to come across as genuine?


These questions are based on comments made by Bronco and Trish in the Pete Seeger thread.

[broncofan]

I like parody:).

As to your question, yes it is passive aggressive. That was part of the whole joke though. I make the slightest little snarky comment and then call a truce. But you responded to this with so much indignation. If you want to have the discussion here we can do that.

[broncofan]

firstly I would like to know why so many on the left make fun of the GOP , Tea Party and Nascar yet can't ever seem to do anything but come across as self important.

I am not a political operative. If I were I would not openly make fun of Nascar or the Tea Party. Instead I engage in policy discussion where suited and at other times make jokes about the great cultural divide. I don't think the secret to the appeal of the GOP lies in the so-called elitism of the Democratic party. It is because the GOP has a regressive social agenda, including opposition to gay marriage, hate crime legislation including gay bashing, and a decades-long record of fighting the implementation of civil rights legislation.

But you can blame their success in the south on elitism if you'd like.

[glenntinnyc]

[QUOTE=broncofan;1450874]I like parody:).

As to your question, yes it is passive aggressive. That was part of the whole joke though. I make the slightest little snarky comment and then call a truce. But you responded to this with so much indignation. If you want to have the discussion here we can do that.[/QUO

I know what it is, you can call it whatever you want, in the real world if you make a snarky comment or a backhanded compliment you get called out on it. Its not indignation at all, it called what goes around comes around.

[Stavros]

We used to have a regular poster here from California called Hippifried, I don't know what happened to him as he hasn't posted for some time. He was also dismissive of the use of labels like 'left' and 'right' and where I think he touched on something important it is because, particularly since the end of the Cold War, the simple division of political ideologies into 'left' or 'right', sometimes meaning 'collectivist' or 'individual' has ceased to be so sharp, and even more so because in the US the Clinton administration and in the UK the Blair government implemented policies that would not have been off the agenda of their rivals. Indeed, at one time Mrs Thatcher declared that Tony Blair was her true heir. To make Labour an electable party, it had to get rid of its association with the 'Working class', that large bloc of mostly industrial workers from the mines, the mills and the workshops many of whose jobs disappeared in the 1980s. In a similar fashion the Obama administration has been banging on about the 'Middle Class' and in the process left behind those who have been left behind. So I think there is a lack of clarity amongst voters about what their parties represent.

Another view, provided by George Lakoff argues the 'progressive' aspect of American politics has actually failed to take on the Republican party because of its inherent inability to say what it means. Presidential elections have favoured Obama, in my view because he was so different from George Bush, but I don't know how successful the Democrats have been as a party nationwide, and Lakoff argues the Republicans win arguments because of the simplicity of their message -love of country, freedom, the right to keep what you earn, where the Democrats get tied up in knots by contrasting their opponents policies with their own instead of offering voters 'the big picture' on what it means to use the state as a vehicle of social and economic change. Crucially, Lakoff argues that there is no political centre, and that most concessions in politics in recent years have been made by the 'Progressives' to the 'Republicans'. He also uses Erving Goffman's concept of Frames as an intellectual way of seeing the portals through which ideas are expressed, and he finds the 'left' are awful at expressing themselves.

It is quite a long article, but there is a review of Lakoff's ideas here:
http://www.theguardian.com/books/2014/feb/01/george-lakoff-interview

[broncofan]

I know what it is, you can call it whatever you want, in the real world if you make a snarky comment or a backhanded compliment you get called out on it. Its not indignation at all, it called what goes around comes around.
Alright. You'll get my agreement on that. But I still feel how I feel about the original comments in the thread (the fuckwittery comments and the you can move there comments). They were a little more hostile than you think they were. I was passive-aggressive or jocular in response...that was the wrong play.

[glenntinnyc]

I am not a political operative. If I were I would not openly make fun of Nascar or the Tea Party. Instead I engage in policy discussion where suited and at other times make jokes about the great cultural divide. I don't think the secret to the appeal of the GOP lies in the so-called elitism of the Democratic party. It is because the GOP has a regressive social agenda, including opposition to gay marriage, hate crime legislation including gay bashing, and a decades-long record of fighting the implementation of civil rights legislation.

But you can blame their success in the south on elitism if you'd like.

You're so misguided its almost sad. Progressive ideas are shared by a majority in this country , including gay marriage, civil rights, gun control. hate crime etc, the reason they have so much difficulty implementing those ideas is beacuse they ostracize the very people they are hoping to gain the support of with. Politics is a popularity contest, and the left are unlikable, just ask Joe the plumber . The majority of Americans when asked about the individual aspects of healthcare reform were all for them, yet the left still managed to fuck it up by letting right call it social healthcare and not having the stones to respond, but instead they gave snarky elitist answers . The same thing is happening in the gun control debate right now. You have a well organized minority holding back legislation because the left are to busy bitching instead of organizing. They are unlikable and elitist and that is why they lose the support of the people even though their ideas and views are actually in the majority.

[Stavros]

You're so misguided its almost sad. Progressive ideas are shared by a majority in this country , including gay marriage, civil rights, gun control. hate crime etc, the reason they have so much difficulty implementing those ideas is beacuse they ostracize the very people they are hoping to gain the support of with. Politics is a popularity contest, and the left are unlikable, just ask Joe the plumber . The majority of Americans when asked about the individual aspects of healthcare reform were all for them, yet the left still managed to fuck it up by letting right call it social healthcare and not having the stones to respond, but instead they gave snarky elitist answers . The same thing is happening in the gun control debate right now. You have a well organized minority holding back legislation because the left are to busy bitching instead of organizing. They are unlikable and elitist and that is why they lose the support of the people even though their ideas and views are actually in the majority.

Very similar to what Lakoff is arguing. I recommend the article in the link I posted when you have time.

[broncofan]

It depends on how you do the polling. If you ask people straight up what they think about the civil rights act, very few will like Phil Robertson say they think it is bad for African-Americans. On the other hand, the Republican party has been very successful in playing to previously unexpressed prejudices on issues of immigration, health care, welfare, and their Southern Strategy was emblematic of this. And whatever the exact numbers are, a large proportion of Republicans vehemently oppose gay marriage and vehemently oppose any gun control measures.

It never comes across as likeable to encourage moderation in others. It's not likeable to gun owners to hear that the unchecked distribution of certain types of guns cause violence. They don't want to hear that some people in the higher income brackets will have to pay more taxes if they want to balance the budget; that they can't simply get there by eliminating programs. All of the snark could leave the Democratic party and Joe the Plumber would not become a progressive.

We had a thread about Dubai the other day. How many people in that thread would have liked it if in juxtaposing the discrimination of Dubai against homosexuals we had discussed the failure of our government to provide habeas-like procedures to Muslims detained post-9/11? There are a lot of things people don't want to hear.

[Prospero]

I like Glenn's signature admitting is postings are works of fiction. They read that way. Little war stories.

[robertlouis]

You're so misguided its almost sad. Progressive ideas are shared by a majority in this country , including gay marriage, civil rights, gun control. hate crime etc, the reason they have so much difficulty implementing those ideas is beacuse they ostracize the very people they are hoping to gain the support of with. Politics is a popularity contest, and the left are unlikable, just ask Joe the plumber . The majority of Americans when asked about the individual aspects of healthcare reform were all for them, yet the left still managed to fuck it up by letting right call it social healthcare and not having the stones to respond, but instead they gave snarky elitist answers . The same thing is happening in the gun control debate right now. You have a well organized minority holding back legislation because the left are to busy bitching instead of organizing. They are unlikable and elitist and that is why they lose the support of the people even though their ideas and views are actually in the majority.

From this distance it certainly appears that this is largely true, but the causes are complex and often contradictory; it's easier to criticise the Republicans because at least it's relatively easy to find out what they stand for and what their base policy drivers are.

With the Democrats it's almost a case of supporting them because they oppose at least some of the hateful rubbish that the republicans come out with. But being able to discern what their core policies are is damn difficult beyond the level of rhetorical symbolism. They seem to be permanently running scared of the republicans and their media attack dogs.

[glenntinnyc]

I like Glenn's signature admitting is postings are works of fiction. They read that way. Little war stories.


That's all you can come up with? Try again I'll be happy to engage when you have something a bit more witty to say or did you wander into the big boys room and are now looking for a way out?

[glenntinnyc]

From this distance it certainly appears that this is largely true, but the causes are complex and often contradictory; it's easier to criticise the Republicans because at least it's relatively easy to find out what they stand for and what their base policy drivers are.

With the Democrats it's almost a case of supporting them because they oppose at least some of the hateful rubbish that the republicans come out with. But being able to discern what their core policies are is damn difficult beyond the level of rhetorical symbolism. They seem to be permanently running scared of the republicans and their media attack dogs.


You are right the cases are complex, and as I said in the Seeger thread, it is painful to sit and listen to wannabe liberals(US version) bitch and moan, act entitled , complain about the state of politics, etc etc then do absolutely nothing about it. Quite frankly the left would be better off if in fact the whiners did pick up and move . That's not hostile it is pragmatic. This conversation took its turn when I said you are free to move to Trish. That still remains, she is free to move. I didn't explicitly say to move, yet that was what she latched onto. I Then said it again with the caveat of running for office. Perhaps it is my east coast mentality, but that is simply a put up or shut stement, it's not hostile ,it's not derogatory, it's simply what it is, put up or shut up. If even a tiny portion of the left that complains ad nauseam would go with that simple idea the left may get something done. But instead the left acts entitled, portaying themselves as intellectuals and wholly alienating themselves from the people who would most benefit from their social and economic agenda. You think you can go into anytown USA and say the British Parliment is a place where real discussion takes place, and that our Congress is full of Twits and expect to get anything done? Which goes to my point of disagreeing that changing the Anthem would have the support of the left. Does anyone here really think Steve the auto union guy in Michigan, who votes democrat wouldn't immediately say that changing the anthem was sacrilege? Cm'on .

[glenntinnyc]

Alright. You'll get my agreement on that. But I still feel how I feel about the original comments in the thread (the fuckwittery comments and the you can move there comments). They were a little more hostile than you think they were. I was passive-aggressive or jocular in response...that was the wrong play.

The fuckwittery comment wasn't mine. I simply said that the Brits invented Fuckwhittery after it was implied that we had taken the concept and run with it. I addressed the move comments in my previous post.

[glenntinnyc]

Very similar to what Lakoff is arguing. I recommend the article in the link I posted when you have time.

thanks i will read it

[Prospero]

Yawn... did I wander into the big boys room says the vicious little fellow throwing his toys around? I must day you are a fine one to mince your words... "put up or shut up," "free to leave" etc etc.... you used these expressions knowing full well their real meaning and then try to imply otherwise. You, Glenn, are a rude and patronising fellow. You talk about the whining left. What about the bullying conniving right. The rich industrialists manipulating the foot soldiers of he tea party into objecting to the very things most likely to help them? Instead you offer abrasive abuse here. Play polite. Argue politely. That is grown up behaviour.

[trish]

firstly I would like to know why so many on the left make fun of the GOP Because opposing parties make fun of each other. What? You think it’s lopsided? You think Fox, and Palin and Cruz etc. or just conservative folks sittin' around the table don’t make fun of the left? Perhaps you simply find our humor more biting because it’s closer to the bone.


Also do do you think it's hostile and passive aggressive to rebut with a snarky comment first in a political discussion then apologize further down the line in attempt to come across as genuine?


These questions are based on comments made by Bronco and Trish in the Pete Seeger thread. I remember coming across as genuine, but I don’t remember apologizing.

[glenntinnyc]

Yawn... did I wander into the big boys room says the vicious little fellow throwing his toys around? I must day you are a fine one to mince your words... "put up or shut up," "free to leave" etc etc.... you used these expressions knowing full well their real meaning and then try to imply otherwise. You, Glenn, are a rude and patronising fellow. You talk about the whining left. What about the bullying conniving right. The rich industrialists manipulating the foot soldiers of he tea party into objecting to the very things most likely to help them? Instead you offer abrasive abuse here. Play polite. Argue politely. That is grown up behaviour.

You did wander into the big boys room and like the scared condescending little fellow you are you hide behind some false belief that you are polite. The full and total meaning of the quotes you used above are exactly what they say, you are free to leave nothing more nothing less, and put up or shut is also pretty self explanatory, no need to try and have a hidden meaning in it. What about the bullying conniving right? I haven't extolled any of their virtues save for the ability to organise and accomplish their agenda.Please do yourself a favor and think before you say things like polite and grown up before you open a comment the way you did. Glass houses. Now scamper back to Pre K and tell all your friends how Glenn the bully made fun of you again. BOO Fucking Hoo. Was that not grown up or polite? BTW that actually was patronizing.

[Prospero]

Cut the abuse Glen.

[glenntinnyc]

Because opposing parties make fun of each other. What? You think it’s lopsided? You think Fox, and Palin and Cruz etc. or just conservative folks sittin' around the table don’t make fun of the left? Perhaps you simply find our humor more biting because it’s closer to the bone.

I am sure it's lopsided, because while the left is sitting around making fun and alienating people the right are organising and accomplishing their goals.

I remember coming across as genuine, but I don’t remember apologizing.

There you go again being self important again, I mentioned two people in the quote, did it ever occur to you that it wasn't directed at you.

[buttslinger]

My Dad got shot at in Europe in WW II, for a long time my Mom said he used to bail out of bed and hit the floor whenever there was a large bang outside.
He met Wernher Von Braun for two weeks in the Reserves, they hit it off. Wernher gave my Pop a stock tip on a new kind of rocket fuel they were going with, my Dad had no money to invest but one of my Uncles hit it big.

When it comes to CASH, I am Mr Conservative.

But the Republicans show their hand when they fuck up the entire Country to fight Obamacare. The Bullshit Meter spins when these Big Pharma Politicians explain why we can't afford to care for the poor. The Middle Class finances the poor through taxes and the rich through goods and services. When the Republican Politicians say WE can't afford Obamacare, they mean the Uber-rich can't "afford" it.

I can understand why Joe Sixpack Republican likes Nascar and guns and pro-life, but why they continue to have a blind spot for being pawns of the one percent, I will never understand.

[broncofan]

Just because the Democratic party is not as organized or effective as they might be does not mean that complaining about the many unethical practices of the GOP is pointless griping. I remember when Kerry lost to Bush, Andrew Sullivan went on Bill Maher and said that the left had gotten what it deserved. The implication was that by ridiculing the right, they had, through their elitism, alienated Middle America.

But maybe that campaign was lost because Kerry was a rigid public speaker and Bush ran a good, tough campaign. What Andrew Sullivan was really saying is that Republicans don't want to hear moral judgments from Democrats. Couldn't it be that the comments he was objecting to merely inflame people who have already decided to vote for the GOP?

And perhaps the Democratic party does have broader appeal than election results would indicate. The problem may be that our policy choices are not easily articulable. It is not easy to explain the difference between a graduated tax rate and socialism to someone who is suspicious of anyone that receives government assistance. It's not easy to explain why we cannot attack countries unilaterally because this principle, if adopted by other countries could lead to perpetual conflict. It's also not easy to explain that living in a functioning society means that you cannot bar people from your establishment based on personal prejudice.

Thorstein Veblen talked about enabling myths; that people in positions of power use various myths to prevent individuals from realizing their mutual interests. I believe the Republican party has been very good at exploiting petty prejudice. Take a good look at some of the comments made about Obama's citizenship. People who have no reason to dislike him or question his citizenship do so out of racial animus. I don't accept that Democrats have lost elections only based on elitism. Republicans have done a tremendous job of misdirection and it requires vigilance and honesty to combat it.