RIP Pete Seeger

[Prospero]

The legendary American folk singer Pete Seeger has died aged 94. Seeger virtually invented the protest song genre and was a great influence on Bob Dylan and others in the sixties folk boom. Best known for his song We Shall Overcome. RIP Pete.

Pete Seeger - Last Train to Nuremberg - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z08YYG6WJI0)

pete seeger which side are you on - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iAIM02kv0g)

Pete Seeger - This Land is Your Land - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HE4H0k8TDgw)

[steviedresses]

Precious Friend, oh Precious Friends. He will be missed.

[nysprod]

A true American icon...his voice will never die.

[Ecstatic]

Pete first came to national attention as a companion to the great American original, Woody Guthrie ("This Land Is Your Land" and about 3000 more), then formed the Weavers with Lee Hays, Fred Hellerman, and Ronnie Gilbert, who had huge commercial success with songs like "Goodnight Irene" and "Kisses Sweeter than Wine." Alongside other liberal entertainers, The Weavers were blacklisted in the early 1950s, but Seeger eventually emerged as a powerful folk and protest singer on his own, writing or co-writing such songs as "Where Have All the Flowers Gone," "Turn, Turn, Turn," and "If I Had a Hammer" and producing a long, creative string of albums. He had an amazing voice and was a virtuoso banjo player, and a huge influence on the emerging counter-culture of the 1960s. I've seen him in concert more times than I can recall.

RIP Pete, to say you will be missed is such an enormous understatement.

[trish]

Thank you, Pete. For everything.

[Stavros]

In addition to being a huge influence on Dylan, Joan Baez and others, Seeger was also, with Alan Lomax and Paul Oliver part of that group of people (not all Americans) who became the archivists of American song from its immigrant and slave roots, and in the process rescued from oblivion the musical landscape of America that might otherwise have been lost. I also like the fact that he was a political 'pain in the ass' and never lost his radical zeal; although I get the impression that country 'n western is less political, Seeger's enduring popularity and influence does show that there has been room in America for a diversity of opinion. The songs will endure, because they are great.

[robertlouis]

One of those seminal influences without whose existence and generosity I probably wouldn't be plying my trade today. Everyone in the business only ever spoke well of him.

A perfect epitaph for a nigh-on perfect man. RIP Pete.

[Ben]

Pete Seeger's tribute at the Kennedy Center for the Performing Arts, Dec. 5., 1994:

Arlo Guthrie & Everybody - This Land Is Your Land - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsPzMU66N00)

Woody Guthrie- This Land Is Your Land - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxiMrvDbq3s)

[trish]

I always think of "This Land Is Your Land" as our defacto national anthem.

[robertlouis]

I always think of "This Land Is Your Land" as our defacto national anthem.

Except for the landowners and corporations, yes.

And coming from a small country - Scotland - where 7% of the population own 84% of the land, I reckon it has a universal resonance too.

[Prospero]

This song was included in a tribute album to Seeger issued some years ago... the final song on the album recorded by the man himself and, in some ways, a fitting swansong to a life spent questioning.

Pete Seger- And I'm Still Searching - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRRKdQLEGnk)

[Ecstatic]

Thoreau famously stated that "most men lead lives of quiet desperation." Not so Pete. He lived a life of outspoken activism and humanitarianism.

[magus13]

My father was huge follower and was at many protests where Pete Seeger played. I had the pleasue of seeing many of his concerts. Friend of the working man and the environment. Pete Seger is a great American

[Prospero]

Ecstatic, you missed the second part of that quote... very pertinent to Seeger. "... and go to the grave with the song still in them."

His songs are everywhere. Part of the fabric of modern America.

[EZWind]

A uniquely and monumentally influential individual, both for his music and his social and humanitarian activism. The world is an immeasurably better place for your having been here, Pete. Thank you and Rest In Peace

[Ecstatic]

Ecstatic, you missed the second part of that quote... very pertinent to Seeger. "... and go to the grave with the song still in them."

His songs are everywhere. Part of the fabric of modern America.

Pertinent, indeed, Prospero. But that's actually a misquotation. And yes, I misquoted Henry David as well. The short form of the quote reads "The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation," and is from Walden:

"The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation. What is called resignation is confirmed desperation.... But it is a characteristic of wisdom not to do desperate things."

That last bit applies equally well to Seeger! As regards the quotation "and go to the grave with the song still in them," the most likely source is a misquote of Oliver Wendell Holmes from "The Voiceless":

"Alas for those that never sing,
But die with all their music in them."

PS: I love your Asimov quote!

[Prospero]

Cheers Ecstatic... well that just shows how useless the web can be. I looked it up becauseI've known the quotation you used for years, but never realised it was Thoreau. Thanks. That Oliver Wendell Holmes...

[the_unnatural]

I thought this was pretty cool.

Sign Off - Pete Seeger Tribute - "If I Had a Hammer" - The Colbert Report - 2014-29-01 - Video Clip | Comedy Central (http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/432647/january-29-2014/sign-off---pete-seeger-tribute----if-i-had-a-hammer-)

[Ecstatic]

@Prospero...yeah that darn interwebs thingy....

@the_unnatural...thanks for sharing the clip!

[Prospero]

The cip uploaded by the unnatural is not viewable in the UK

[the_unnatural]

The cip uploaded by the unnatural is not viewable in the UK
Sorry, I didn't realize it's not viewable there. I found it here, too--maybe this will work:
The Colbert Report _ Sign Off: Pete Seeger Tribute - "If I Had a Hammer" - Video Dailymotion (http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1ameal_the-colbert-report-sign-off-pete-seeger-tribute-if-i-had-a-hammer_fun)

[robertlouis]

The Daily Mail, house-mag of all looney rightwingers in the UK, has complained about the BBC's coverage of Pete Seeger's death.

Cunts. Pete would have been more gracious and generous, but yeah, cunts.

[glenntinnyc]

Except for the landowners and corporations, yes.

And coming from a small country - Scotland - where 7% of the population own 84% of the land, I reckon it has a universal resonance too.

except that was woody guthrie


this land is your land reference

[robertlouis]

except that was woody guthrie


this land is your land reference

I was well aware of that - the reference went back to a Woody tribute where Pete played the song with Arlo.

And the song may have been written with the US in mind but it has a resonance in every country on the planet.

And how wonderful if it was used as your national anthem.

[robertlouis]

It has the essential virtues of all Woody's best songs - simple, easy to play and sing, and rousing. It's always worth throwing in a Woody song to get a turgid audience engaged.

[glenntinnyc]

I was well aware of that - the reference went back to a Woody tribute where Pete played the song with Arlo.

And the song may have been written with the US in mind but it has a resonance in every country on the planet.

And how wonderful if it was used as your national anthem.


listen I like Pete Seeger , and I'm no flag waiver but the implication that the song would be a better anthem for us is ridiculous

[robertlouis]

listen I like Pete Seeger , and I'm no flag waiver but the implication that the song would be a better anthem for us is ridiculous

I meant that from what I said as a musician myself - it's rousing in a way that the present US anthem simply isn't. And FWIW I hate God Save the Queen for the same reasons. Turgid, poorly written and totally uninspiring.

I suspect that many on the left in the US would go with Woody.

[glenntinnyc]

I'm as left as it gets, and i suspect you are utterly wrong in your assumption, the anthem isnt about the musical composition, nor was it ever intended to be, and as for inspiring, i can't see how you would say it isn't. It always amazes me how people try and pigeon hole us as left or right on every issue, when in fact the left and right have far more in common than ever, and the anthem i suspect is one of them. It would be one thing is you said the left would not oppose not having to stand during its playing, but to completely change the song which is an indelible part of our history is anathema to most Americans

[trish]

listen I like Pete Seeger , and I'm no flag waiver but the implication that the song would be a better anthem for us is ridiculous
Not an implication. Don't know what it means to be better or worse in this context. I merely said for myself that "I think of it as our defacto national anthem." Having heard it sung in group settings on many occasions by Americans with wet eyes and lumps in their throats, I'd say I'm not alone.

[robertlouis]

I agree with most of what you say, but in fact it has only been the official national anthem since 1931; various other songs had served the same purpose beforehand.

We've been saddled with the awful God Save the Queen/King since the 18th century. As a Scotsman it irks me hugely that the current sporting anthem of choice there is an appallingly sentimental dirge called Flower of Scotland written in the 1970s, when there are so many splendid songs by Robert Burns available.

[robertlouis]

Not an implication. Don't know what it means to be better or worse in this context. I merely said for myself that "I think think of it as our defacto national anthem." Having heard it sung in group settings on many occasions by Americans with wet eyes and lumps in their throats, I'd say I'm not alone.

It moves me too, especially when I sing it and have a whole hall full of people sing it with me. I'm not American, and it's highly unlikely that anyone in my audience will be either, but the song has a universal resonance and relevance.

If only the Scots would choose "A Man's a Man" for their anthem, which embraces the same universal spirit. Och well.... :(

[Stavros]

I think it misses the point about the other one, the actual national anthem which was created out of a last ditch attempt by the British to smash the American revolution and whose words come, as it were from the battlefield smoked and stoked. In a way it is similar to La Marseillaise which was created out of the fervour of revolution, while the national anthem of the UK is by contrast an anti-revolutionary anthem with its call to 'scatter her enemies, and make them fall, confound their politics, frustrate their knavish tricks...' there is a theory that it was played for King George after the Battle of Culloden in 1745, which might explain why, in years now passed, when Scotland played England at football, the national anthem was inaudible under a tidal wave of sarcastic whistling...so I will let the Americans argue among themselves on this one!

[robertlouis]

And here's my dear friend Sheena Wellington singing A Man's a Man at the opening of the Scottish Parliament in 1999. A fitting accompaniment to a nation's rebirth. The last verse always gets me - lump in my throat as I type.

Sorry for the self-indulgence but I think it's worth sharing.

http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anYHBwOF2cY

[robertlouis]

I think it misses the point about the other one, the actual national anthem which was created out of a last ditch attempt by the British to smash the American revolution and whose words come, as it were from the battlefield smoked and stoked. In a way it is similar to La Marseillaise which was created out of the fervour of revolution, while the national anthem of the UK is by contrast an anti-revolutionary anthem with its call to 'scatter her enemies, and make them fall, confound their politics, frustrate their knavish tricks...' there is a theory that it was played for King George after the Battle of Culloden in 1745, which might explain why, in years now passed, when Scotland played England at football, the national anthem was inaudible under a tidal wave of sarcastic whistling...so I will let the Americans argue among themselves on this one!

Ah, the Marseillaise, now there's an anthem that ticks all the boxes.

As for GSTQ, you missed the previous verse, which really amplifies the Scots' eternal contempt for the dirge:


Lord, grant that Marshal Wade,
May by thy mighty aid,
Victory bring.
May he sedition hush,
and like a torrent rush,
Rebellious Scots to crush,
God save the King.


Fuck 'em all.

[Stavros]

Not sure where you got that verse from, it is not the first verse (my quote was of the second)...anyway I think even if Scotland votes yes to independence you will still stand and sing for Her Most Noble Majesty as your head of state, and polish the floors at Balmoral.

[robertlouis]

Not sure where you got that verse from, it is not the first verse (my quote was of the second)...anyway I think even if Scotland votes yes to independence you will still stand and sing for Her Most Noble Majesty as your head of state, and polish the floors at Balmoral.

Umm. Not me. Regardless of independence, lifelong republican.

And in case anyone misconstrues, that's in the UK non-monarchist sense, not the doleful fuckwittery across the pond.

[glenntinnyc]

Umm. Not me. Regardless of independence, lifelong republican.

And in case anyone misconstrues, that's in the UK non-monarchist sense, not the doleful fuckwittery across the pond.



of course our discourse is doleful and full of as you so eloquently put it fuckwittery, when on that rock you call home politics are always carried out in such serene respectful fashion as to be a guiding light to the rest. You all invented fuckwittery

[trish]

Yeah, here in the U.S. we replaced the "wittery" in "fuckwittery" with "twittery." Just look at all idiocy tweeted by our elected representatives.

In the British Parliament they actually argue issues on the floor with everyone present. In the U.S., a Congressmen delivers a rant to CSPAN camera in an empty chamber and then he airs campaign clips of it that make it seem like he wowed the audience and took his opponents down a notch.

[glenntinnyc]

Yeah, here in the U.S. we replaced the "wittery" in "fuckwittery" with "twittery." Just look at all idiocy tweeted by our elected representatives.

In the British Parliament they actually argue issues on the floor with everyone present. In the U.S., a Congressmen delivers a rant to CSPAN camera in an empty chamber and then he airs campaign clips of it that make it seem like he wowed the audience and took his opponents down a notch.


im sure you could get a visa to move there, hell Canada is closer why not head there. You think that Parliment is this open forum of intelligent argument?, youtube any number clips from BBC and watch the civility.

[trish]

I'm sure I could, but whatever prompted you to make the suggestion? Since when are Americans invited to leave the country for making a joke about their political process? This land is...

[Ecstatic]

Back on track.... Pete's last major creative effort was the CD A More Perfect Union, a collaboration with his long time friend Lorre Wyatt. The CD was released in 2012 and the titular song (written by Pete and Lorre, as were all but one of the songs) includes these lyrics:

To form a more perfect union, read the words writ long ago
Words we learned when we were young
Words that continue to grow
All our differences we can transcend
With family, neighbors, workers, friends
As we joined before, can we join again
In Union, Union, in Union, Union.

[glenntinnyc]

[QUOTE=trish;1449729]I'm sure I could, but whatever prompted you to make the suggestion? Since when are Americans invited to leave the country for making a joke about their political process? This land is...[/QUO


it's so easy to joke and judge, say how great someplace else is, if the British Parliment is more your style I don't see why you wouldn't want to go there. I get just as frustrated with our politics as anyone else does, but its just tiring to listen to all the crap about how this place does it better or that place does it better etc etc. Either run for office and try and effect some change or move to where it's better. I made a simple correction about a song, Pete Seeger is not nearly as well known for it as is woody Guthrie, at which point it was suggested it would make a wonderful anthem for us because ours has poor musicality, and some blanket statement about the left would be all for the change. That alone shows a complete lack of understanding of the collective physche of Americans, who as a whole will bitch across the aisle at each other over nearly every issue, until something like our National Anthem comes up for change . We have argued here over prayer in school, in god we trust on currency and nearly everything else imaginable, yet not once can i recall the Anthem being up for debate.

[trish]

My your panties are in bunch. Way back in post #9 to this thread I said, "I always think of "This Land Is Your Land" as our defacto national anthem." It was a personal statement, not a suggestion that we should make it our national anthem, or replace the Star Spangled Banner (as if it would be against some cosmic law that a country can't have two national anthems :) ) Robert merely took me up on it.


Either run for office and try and effect some change or move to where it's better.These are obviously not the only two options. One can effect change in many ways. They mostly involve exercising the First Amendment, something both Woody and Pete did their entire lives.

[broncofan]

Yeah Glenn you sound awfully left-wing. I almost mistook you for Karl Marx. What did you say in your manifesto.

"There is a spectre haunting America. The spectre of those wanting to change our national anthem. All the powers of America have formed a holy alliance to exorcise this spectre: Nascar fan and Jeff Foxworthy viewer, Toby Keith groupie and Alabaman.....".

Anyhow, RIP Pete Seeger. I think this land would make a wonderful anthem.

[Prospero]

How about "The Internationale" as a national anthem for the USA then?

[robertlouis]

of course our discourse is doleful and full of as you so eloquently put it fuckwittery, when on that rock you call home politics are always carried out in such serene respectful fashion as to be a guiding light to the rest. You all invented fuckwittery

If you follow what I ACTUALLY said, it was all in the context of Republicanism and my reference was to that home of idiocy otherwise known as the modern GOP, not to the quality of discourse in congress in general.

Oh my!

[El_hefe]

He was one of my true heros, not many lived a life & full & true as he did. RIP.

[Prospero]

Fields of Harmony- Pete Seeger - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOAFtT276c4)

[glenntinnyc]

My your panties are in bunch. Way back in post #9 to this thread I said, "I always think of "This Land Is Your Land" as our defacto national anthem." It was a personal statement, not a suggestion that we should make it our national anthem, or replace the Star Spangled Banner (as if it would be against some cosmic law that a country can't have two national anthems :) ) Robert merely took me up on it.

These are obviously not the only two options. One can effect change in many ways. They mostly involve exercising the First Amendment, something both Woody and Pete did their entire lives.


firstly, i was commenting on what was suggested by your friend robert, you decided to come running to his defense when i commented, and as for using the first amendment to effect change, feel free to stand on your soap box and shout out your ideas, i could give a rats ass if you think of it as our defacto anthem, good for you again, my comment was not directed at you.

[glenntinnyc]

Yeah Glenn you sound awfully left-wing. I almost mistook you for Karl Marx. What did you say in your manifesto.

"There is a spectre haunting America. The spectre of those wanting to change our national anthem. All the powers of America have formed a holy alliance to exorcise this spectre: Nascar fan and Jeff Foxworthy viewer, Toby Keith groupie and Alabaman.....".

Anyhow, RIP Pete Seeger. I think this land would make a wonderful anthem.


Ahh sarcasm, there isn't one thing I said that is even remotely right wing , i merely replied that the statement and i'm paraphrasing here" i suspect many in America feel the same way" with regards to our Anthem was misguided. It is one of the few things that most americans actually do agree on, left right or center. And as for your Marx comment, you have no idea what I believe in, stand for etc and trying to glean that from my comments is absurd,

[glenntinnyc]

If you follow what I ACTUALLY said, it was all in the context of Republicanism and my reference was to that home of idiocy otherwise known as the modern GOP, not to the quality of discourse in congress in general.

Oh my!


I'm fully aware of the context, the across the pond reference made it pretty clear, and it doesnt take a genius to figure you were referencing the GOP, I merely stated that Fuckwhittery has it origins in British politics,


Oh My

[trish]

firstly, i was commenting on what was suggested by your friend robert, you decided to come running to his defense when i commented, and as for using the first amendment to effect change, feel free to stand on your soap box and shout out your ideas...
Thank you, but I don't require your consent.


... i could give a rats ass if you think of it as our defacto anthem, good for you again, my comment was not directed at you.
I didn't know you dealt in the asses of rats. How peculiar.

[broncofan]

Ahh sarcasm, there isn't one thing I said that is even remotely right wing , i merely replied that the statement and i'm paraphrasing here" i suspect many in America feel the same way" with regards to our Anthem was misguided.
I understand. But I have never heard someone left of center politically say that someone should move to a different country because that person believes that country may have an advantage in one area. I have had people say this to me when I've said I think there are better social programs in other countries etc. Those who have said this have never been progressive; in fact most were openly reactionary.

In fact when Antonin Scalia was arguing the issue of whether executing a minor is cruel and unusual, he said that the custom of every other major country is not even persuasive because they aren't America. The misuse of patriotism and nationalism; the suggestion that people who are critical of one of their country's practices are not where they belong has at least some history in right-wing circles. Sorry if that's derailing the thread a bit, but I did want to clarify this issue.

[glenntinnyc]

Thank you, but I don't require your consent.

Ok that made zero sense in he context of what you quoted, although perhaps you should get consent for trying to be witty as evidenced by your next remark


I didn't know you dealt in the asses of rats. How peculiar.


Your welcome, that made no sense

[glenntinnyc]

I understand. But I have never heard someone left of center politically say that someone should move to a different country because that person believes that country may have an advantage in one area. I have had people say this to me when I've said I think there are better social programs in other countries etc. Those who have said this have never been progressive; in fact most were openly reactionary.

In fact when Antonin Scalia was arguing the issue of whether executing a minor is cruel and unusual, he said that the custom of every other major country is not even persuasive because they aren't America. The misuse of patriotism and nationalism; the suggestion that people who are critical of one of their country's practices are not where they belong has at least some history in right-wing circles. Sorry if that's derailing the thread a bit, but I did want to clarify this issue.


well perhaps you haven't met as many people left of center that are just as tired of people who claim to be liberal or centrist yet do nothing to support those ideas other than bitch and moan about the right. Quite frankly it is exhausting listening to left and right , but as i lean left i find it more exhausting when we make snarky comments, try to act more intelligent than we really are, and make fun of the GOP when if we had half the organization they did social , political and economic change may actually become a reality The GOP;s fuckwhittery has resonated with a large portion of the country, and while they may be NASCAR fans and like Toby Keith, they also have been very successful in moving their agendas forward, so it seems the fuckwhittery is quite effective.. as for Scalia I think he a raging lunatic having read several of his opinions.

[broncofan]

Trish and Robertlouis and many others engage in a great deal of policy discussion in the politics side of this forum. It's much more than just griping...but yes the misuse of patriotism by the GOP is one issue that gets play.

Nobody likes one-note complaining without any plans for action, but I don't know why you're attributing that to anyone on this thread. And the Brits, as smug and superior as they are (just a joke guys), have every right to engage us in debate about political subjects or make recommendations.

You seem to be objecting to both everything and nothing at all. This type of irascibility is often the result of a mineral deficiency or something. That's just a joke...maybe not funny but just a joke. I understand what you're saying btw, but I think it's a case of a principle misapplied. Let's defuse this.

[broncofan]

Pete Seeger & Bruce Springsteen HD This Land is Your Land We Take Care Of Our Own Wrecking Ball - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5KnYADCSms)
Edit: This is a different clip of the same performance in the first post, but worth a watch if you didn't watch it then.

[robertlouis]

Glen, I apologise if my emotionally-charged post about making This Land your national anthem sparked off something in you that certainly wasn't intended.

I made the comment because on the face of it, without the history, it's a better song, and as a professional musician, I think I'm qualified to make an objective assertion to that effect - I couldn't imagine getting an audience going with the Star-Spangled Banner to a solo acoustic guitar in any circumstances! - and my second point was that where the imagery in TSSB is essentially vague and symbolic, TLIYL deals in specific places and things that are immediately accessible to the listener.

Maybe put it this way: if TSSB had never been written, perhaps Woody's opus would be a suitable candidate for the job.

And for those who know me, my views on the British national anthem are unprintable.

Peace?

[glenntinnyc]

Trish and Robertlouis and many others engage in a great deal of policy discussion in the politics side of this forum. It's much more than just griping...but yes the misuse of patriotism by the GOP is one issue that gets play.

Nobody likes one-note complaining without any plans for action, but I don't know why you're attributing that to anyone on this thread. And the Brits, as smug and superior as they are (just a joke guys), have every right to engage us in debate about political subjects or make recommendations.

You seem to be objecting to both everything and nothing at all. This type of irascibility is often the result of a mineral deficiency or something. That's just a joke...maybe not funny but just a joke. I understand what you're saying btw, but I think it's a case of a principle misapplied. Let's defuse this.


Pompous replies are often the result of being a douche, oh wait just a joke. The pricncipal is crystal clear I was engaging in a conversation with A(Robert) when B( Trish decided to interject with her comments ) Robert commented on our system and pointed out that the Brits are just as ridiculous, and Trish who must have a soft spot for Robert came running back to defend . so sweet of her. The only things I have objected to is the notion that a large percentage of people would want to change the anthem and Trish's awful attempts at being witty, because as I previously said, snarky comments about how shitty we do things here are just boring .

[glenntinnyc]

Glen, I apologise if my emotionally-charged post about making This Land your national anthem sparked off something in you that certainly wasn't intended.

I made the comment because on the face of it, without the history, it's a better song, and as a professional musician, I think I'm qualified to make an objective assertion to that effect - I couldn't imagine getting an audience going with the Star-Spangled Banner to a solo acoustic guitar in any circumstances! - and my second point was that where the imagery in TSSB is essentially vague and symbolic, TLIYL deals in specific places and things that are immediately accessible to the listener.

Maybe put it this way: if TSSB had never been written, perhaps Woody's opus would be a suitable candidate for the job.

And for those who know me, my views on the British national anthem are unprintable.

Peace?

I think Jimi Hendrix proved with his guitar the anthem can be a pretty moving solo. As for the history, that is the point of why i replied by saying i disagree with the notion of people wanting to change it. The history good and bad is the one thing we all have in common here, and that poem is a very large part of it.

Peace.

[robertlouis]

I think Jimi Hendrix proved with his guitar the anthem can be a pretty moving solo. As for the history, that is the point of why i replied by saying i disagree with the notion of people wanting to change it. The history good and bad is the one thing we all have in common here, and that poem is a very large part of it.

Peace.

Good. Speaking as the child of another nation (Scotland) which is currently contemplating a break from the British crown, I sincerely hope we can count on support from our American cousins. :dancing:

[broncofan]

Pompous replies are often the result of being a douche, oh wait just a joke. The pricncipal is crystal clear I was engaging in a conversation with A(Robert) when B( Trish decided to interject with her comments ) Robert commented on our system and pointed out that the Brits are just as ridiculous, and Trish who must have a soft spot for Robert came running back to defend . so sweet of her. The only things I have objected to is the notion that a large percentage of people would want to change the anthem and Trish's awful attempts at being witty, because as I previously said, snarky comments about how shitty we do things here are just boring .
Glenn, you're a grouch. I don't buy the "it's boring" argument. You don't like it because it offends your sense of patriotism. I do agree that sometimes people from other countries expect us to be more self-deprecating than they're willing to be, but being self-critical is crucially important. For instance, your avatar says something about British weather and food...I've said these things many times and nobody's been defensive.

I also disagree with the idea that we need to be so rigid about our traditions. We create new traditions all the time, and they are more inclusive, and more consistent with our values as they have evolved over time. That's part of being progressive. Finally, I think Trish is witty, so her attempts at wit are just in character for her. I'll end this post with the same hope as I had in the last one. Truce. I hope the grouch comment in the first sentence didn't ruin it.

[robertlouis]

I do agree that sometimes people from other countries expect us to be more self-deprecating than they're willing to be, but being self-critical is crucially important.

Not quite sure what point you're trying to make here - when it comes to self-deprecation and running ourselves down, we Brits are probably inter-galactic champions, and what often takes us aback is you guys' seeming incapability to do the same: our patriotism is less spiky than yours, I guess.

[broncofan]

Not quite sure what point you're trying to make here - when it comes to self-deprecation and running ourselves down, we Brits are probably inter-galactic champions, and what often takes us aback is you guys' seeming incapability to do the same: our patriotism is less spiky than yours, I guess.
Not the Brits in particular. But when I've traveled abroad, I've traveled in groups where the American stereotypes are generally the group joke. Yes, the Brits have a pretty thick skin...anyhow this was just a general impression when immersed in a broader group of Western Euros. But I'm not naming names! Just a general impression that when we take the comments in stride we don't get nearly enough credit for our magnanimity;).

[robertlouis]

Not the Brits in particular. But when I've traveled abroad, I've traveled in groups where the American stereotypes are generally the group joke. Yes, the Brits have a pretty thick skin...anyhow this was just a general impression when immersed in a broader group of Western Euros. But I'm not naming names! Just a general impression that when we take the comments in stride we don't get nearly enough credit for our magnanimity;).

European culture generally - and the Brits aren't immune despite their preferred semi-detached stance - tends towards the cynical at best, so we admire the typical can-do approach of Americans at the outset and are then quite happy to stand back in the hope that it will fail. I've worked in multinational teams and across borders over the years, and I'm ashamed to say that's pretty much what we do. Lots of up-and-at-em initiatives get halfway across the Atlantic and then slowly die in waves of ice-cold European sangfroid.

We're bastards really. :)

[Stavros]

Good. Speaking as the child of another nation (Scotland) which is currently contemplating a break from the British crown, I sincerely hope we can count on support from our American cousins. :dancing:

In fact the Scottish National Party, if it wins the referendum, has no plans to become a Republic, it wants to keep the pound sterling as its currency, and Our Most Noble, and Gracious Majesty, Queen Elizabeth II, as head of state. A very Scottish definition of independence...!

I don't understand the hostility to the Star Spangled Banner -it is a rousing melody, it has great lyrics which reflect the ordeal for freedom in which they were written, and it ticks all the boxes you would expect of a national anthem. As I recall, from the film as I wasn't there, when Jimi Hendrix played it, the rendition was critical, even sarcastic, and I can see how the politics of dissent in the USA can feel scornful of the content, not least the song's rousing valediction of 'the land of the free, and the home of the brave'. But it still works. Some English people want to replace God Save the Queen as our 'national' anthem with Jerusalem, words by William Blake, music by Parry -I think Pete Seeger would have liked that, not least because Blake was an anti-Establishment radical....

[glenntinnyc]

Glenn, you're a grouch. I don't buy the "it's boring" argument. You don't like it because it offends your sense of patriotism. I do agree that sometimes people from other countries expect us to be more self-deprecating than they're willing to be, but being self-critical is crucially important. For instance, your avatar says something about British weather and food...I've said these things many times and nobody's been defensive.

I also disagree with the idea that we need to be so rigid about our traditions. We create new traditions all the time, and they are more inclusive, and more consistent with our values as they have evolved over time. That's part of being progressive. Finally, I think Trish is witty, so her attempts at wit are just in character for her. I'll end this post with the same hope as I had in the last one. Truce. I hope the grouch comment in the first sentence didn't ruin it.


So your idea of a truce is to call me something then make your point? Ok Truce, You're a tool. The avatar was put up when Dennis Farina died, and it is his quote from the movie Snatch, so once again you tried to glean something , and once again have completely misunderstood it. My issue had nothing to do with Patriotism and everything to do with as I explained before, not agreeing that anything more than an infinitesimal minority would consider changing the anthem, so honestly stop playing armchair psychologist with me. I could do the same and come to the conclusion that based on the first few comments of your posts you are a passive aggressive bitch that has difficulty with conflict and resorts to name calling to make a point. Hope that didn't ruin my response for you.

[glenntinnyc]

Good. Speaking as the child of another nation (Scotland) which is currently contemplating a break from the British crown, I sincerely hope we can count on support from our American cousins. :dancing:


Support from the people, I'm sure you will have quite a bit, support from the US Gov. Doubtful, but I wish you luck

Cheers

[broncofan]

So your idea of a truce is to call me something then make your point? Ok Truce, You're a tool. The avatar was put up when Dennis Farina died, and it is his quote from the movie Snatch, so once again you tried to glean something , and once again have completely misunderstood it. My issue had nothing to do with Patriotism and everything to do with as I explained before, not agreeing that anything more than an infinitesimal minority would consider changing the anthem, so honestly stop playing armchair psychologist with me. I could do the same and come to the conclusion that based on the first few comments of your posts you are a passive aggressive bitch that has difficulty with conflict and resorts to name calling to make a point. Hope that didn't ruin my response for you.
I've seen the movie Snatch and I knew the quote. Glenn you can't conscript people into ignoring your motivations just because you are boorish and randomly capitalize words. You can say it had nothing to do with patriotism, but telling people to leave the country because they criticize it is the worst form of patriotism. You would fit right in at a tea party rally.

[trish]

Glenn. You invited me to leave the country because of a comparison I made between our House of Representatives and the British Parliament. After I pointed out this was rather un-American of you, you amended your position: I could run for office to fight for change, or I could leave the country, because you're just tired of hearing me and people like me complain. So I reminded you that there are ways to fight for change that neither involve running for office nor leaving the country, though they do involve exercising the First Amendment. What was your reaction?

...feel free to stand on your soap box and shout out your ideas...Glenn. You are in no position to grant me that freedom. I already have it.

I'm not sure, Glenn, that you know what a democracy is. You act like an aristocrat who just woke up and found out the plebs have taken over. You are not in a position to invite people to leave the country. You are not in a position to tell them to shut up because you're tired of hearing them. You are not in a position to grant or deny to others the freedom of speech.

In spite of the fact that you keep replying, you say that you don't give a rat's posterior what the song "This Land" means to me or about anything else I think or say. What significance should I then attach your wish that I shut up about it and leave the country?

[glenntinnyc]

I've seen the movie Snatch and I knew the quote. Glenn you can't conscript people into ignoring your motivations just because you are boorish and randomly capitalize words. You can say it had nothing to do with patriotism, but telling people to leave the country because they criticize it is the worst form of patriotism. You would fit right in at a tea party rally.


So you knew the quote yet took it out of context and now you backtrack on it and try to make a new point. As for being boorish, that is laughable, I merely responded to your rude comments so I guess rudeness begets boorishness.. As for the leave the country comment, take it for what is is, a suggestion, if you don't like a circumstance in your life you have the ability to change it. People leave jobs , relationships and scores of other situations, so quite frankly if someone is so disturbed with our process, and loves Parliament so much, it is a perfectly reasonable suggestion. As for the tea party rally, once again it goes to show how little you pay attention, the reason I would fit in there is not politics, it is organization, those rallys you mention have changed the fabric of the country in an extremely short time. Its seriously amusing how whiny you are, and it's that whiny attitude that assures the left will never get anything accomplished. You are a pseudo intellectual passive aggressive prat( see i Love the British) who doesn't like being called on your bullshit comments.

[glenntinnyc]

Glenn. You invited me to leave the country because of a comparison I made between our House of Representatives and the British Parliament. After I pointed out this was rather un-American of you, you amended your position: I could run for office to fight for change, or I could leave the country, because you're just tired of hearing me and people like me complain. So I reminded you that there are ways to fight for change that neither involve running for office nor leaving the country, though they do involve exercising the First Amendment. What was your reaction?
Glenn. You are in no position to grant me that freedom. I already have it.

I never amended my position I said quite openly that if you are so unhappy about something you are free to leave. At no point did i ask you to leave, although in retrospect that isn't a bad idea. Funny how you mention the first amendment, then get your panties in bunch when someone besides you exercises it. If you are in a position to suggest that Parliament is a more civil body of government and that you would support changing the anthem I am in a position to suggest you move. And therein lies the rub. You spew cookie cutter garbage about freedom of speech only when it suits you, but then cry foul when you don't like what someone else says. Please do yourself a favor and think before you comment.

I'm not sure, Glenn, that you know what a democracy is. You act like an aristocrat who just woke up and found out the plebs have taken over. You are not in a position to invite people to leave the country. You are not in a position to tell them to shut up because you're tired of hearing them. You are not in a position to grant or deny to others the freedom of speech.

I'm not quite sure Trish that you know that we don't actually live in a democracy but rather a republic, but hey maybe that's what you meant. Actually I am in position to invite people to leave, that was covered above, whether they take me up on the offer is of course up to them. I am also in a position to tell some to shut up, also covered above, and once again they can choose to or not. Now me telling someone to shut up in now way denied them freedom of speech it merely conveys that my ears are hurting from listening to all the poorly thought out, hopelessly meaningless rhetoric they are regurgitating and I am trying to remedy the pain. As for being aristocratic, I am responding from the comfort of my castle, which is far more comfortable than your soapbox.
.

In spite of the fact that you keep replying, you say that you don't give a rat's posterior what the song "This Land" means to me or about anything else I think or say. What significance should I then attach your wish that I shut up about it and leave the country?

You can attach I don't give a rats ass about what the song means to you. You can also attach that I don't give a rats ass if you stay , go, or become a a citizen of the world. I would however appreciate a more thought out reply.

[trish]

I'd appreciate it if you learned how to use the quote box.

[Prospero]

And if you want to have an on-going argument about US politics start a new strand in the Politics part of this forum and et out of the Pete Seeger memorial strand.

[glenntinnyc]

I'd appreciate it if you learned how to use the quote box.

I'd appreciate if you made decent arguments.

[broncofan]

I have started a thread in the Politics section to transfer these arguments. It's under the title "right-wing xenophobia" for those who would like to continue this argument. In the meantime let's leave the Pete Seeger memorial alone.

[glenntinnyc]

I have started a thread in the Politics section to transfer these arguments. It's under the title "right-wing xenophobia" for those who would like to continue this argument. In the meantime let's leave the Pete Seeger memorial alone.


I'm starting a thread also , it's called left wing whiners with apparent passive aggressive tendencies, who can't make a salient point without trying to look smarter than they are who make the rest of us look bad.

[cdtvtslover]

From his album "Pete" from the mid 1990's. It always brought tears to my eyes...even more so now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VHVY8KOzuw