Cross Dressers = She ???

[endo420]

Does a cross dressing man deserve to be called "She"? I don't think so myself. In another post a hairy nasty gay guy is bending over asking if we'd fuck him. That does not warrant calling him "she". I think that term should be reserved for TS. If a cross dresser gets called he because he hasn't progressed far enough, then thats too bad. As a subculture we have to put our foot down somewhere in order to get respect. When we call CD's she, we are watering down what some of these girls have worked so hard to accomplish. Thoughts?

[partlycloudy]

:arrow:

[RangeHova]

I don't get the big deal. Why can't we give people the respect that they ask for if it doesn't take that much.

I won't take to call it the level of hate but there is some element of it in the way it is given. If not hate just disrespect. I saw the post and the person in the post was not my cup of tea at all but that gave me no reason to disrespect 'her'. Who knows, with the help of the right clothes, hair, and makeup 'she' could be gorgeous, no tellin what the right surgical procedures might do.

The same 'girls' that we all are on here eyeballin and so enamoured with were, in most cases, on that 'gay guy' level at some point. Why do they deserve our respect anymore now than when they were on the road to get where they are now? What is so hard about supporting them before we deem them attractive enough? You don't have to fuck em or even say a word at all to them. Just basic support.

We just are way too obsessed with what is on the outside.

[endo420]

OK.. then all these are she... and the only thing that makes a he a he and a she a she is the cloths they wear, a wig, and makeup.


http://myspace-203.vo.llnwd.net/00771/30/24/771534203_l.jpg

http://myspace-795.vo.llnwd.net/00771/59/74/771534795_l.jpg

http://myspace-100.vo.llnwd.net/00774/00/12/774952100_l.jpg

http://myspace-944.vo.llnwd.net/00417/44/95/417875944_l.jpg

http://myspace-155.vo.llnwd.net/00627/55/10/627830155_l.jpg

[Friedrich_Nietzsche]

Since they appear as women, i believe they want us to call them "she"

And thats the correct attitude

On the other hand, you called Madlene Allbright a she...the cds are your problem?

[MacShreach]

OK.. then all these are she... and the only thing that makes a he a he and a she a she is the cloths they wear, a wig, and makeup.


Quite. When a man dresses up in a skirt he is still a man in a skirt. A male who turns himself into a woman, takes hormones, perhaps undergoes surgery but most of all lives as a woman is TS and gets called "she." As in "She earned it."

[MacShreach]

So you'd call Jamie Cross and Kayla Coxx guys then?

Yes, definitely. Especially Kayla Coxx.

[Edmund]

If they want to be identified as a woman, it's she. If they want to be identified as a man, it's he.

How hard is that?

[Dkg]

If they want to be identified as a woman, it's she. If they want to be identified as a man, it's he.

How hard is that?

No, It's not that easy.

[NYTSJulie]

I have not worked this hard to get to where I am today for some guy to put on a dress and be grouped into the same category as me. I am a TS or transsexual. I am not a CD, TV, Drag Queen or anything else.

I hate the word transgendered. It is an umbrella term that the medical community came up with to group anyone of gender difference together. WE ARE NOT ALL THE SAME.

There are different motivations and major differences in what we are seeking. As a TS I am seeking a COMPLETE life as a woman and to have the gender role of such.

A CD is usually seeking sexual pleasure from wearing female clothing. It is 100% sexual and the desire to wear female clothing usually ends once he reaches his climax.

People were also talking about Kayla Koxx, in my opinion she is just "dressing up" to make some cash. I doubt she wants to have any kind of full change.

So to sum it all up, society is going to call them by the pro-noun that they look like. So if they look like a dude then people are probably gonna say he or him.

Kiss Kiss,
Julie

[MacShreach]

If they want to be identified as a woman, it's she. If they want to be identified as a man, it's he.

How hard is that?

Nonsense. If that's the case every fag in drag is a girl. Time you did some research. Crossdressers and TV's are fetishists who get their kicks by dressing up as women some of the time. They either get a sexual kick out of wearing women's clothes or they use the women's clothes to acheive a sexual end. When they're not doing this they dress as men and have normal male lives. Most of the time you wouldn't have clue what they get up to. They really are just weird men.

Transexuals are people who were born male but can't live as male so become women. They live it full time. They go to incredible lengths to achieve their end, suffer pain, opprobrium and frequently violence for the path they have chosen.

Calling CD's "she" is an insult to all the real TS's. Stop trying to be politically correct and have some principles, Crissake.

[RangeHova]

As hard as society judges us all on this board (from the Angels to thier admirers) I sometimes get amazed at how hard we pass judgement on others within our fold. Many people in mainstream society would wrap us all in the lot of 'a bunch of weird fags (the angels as well as us admirers).

In my dealings with TS women, I have run across all kinds of folks. Full the fulltime girls that look as manly as as guy, to the girl who only dresses for shows, to part times that have breast and silicone work. I've learned a lot of tolerance in my dealings with all kinds of unique people.

Simply calling a part timer, new comer, or CD 'she' does not automatically put them on the level of someone as gorgeous as Julie or any of the other HAngels. No three letter word (or 50 letter word) could do that. It's just a very simple pronoun. I don't get the big deal in refering to someone in the way they wish to be addressed by, especially something as simple as 'she' or 'her'.

To say that all CDs do it for sexual gratification is just not true. Hell, a girl could NEVER dress as a female and still be a TS. Some TS women started out as CDs, in fact I know quite a few. Being a transsexual is not about how far you have gone, how pretty you are, or how convincing you are. Just because I don't think a particular girl looks good, has gone far enough or appears too manly, it is nothing to give simple respect.

If you present yourself as a girl, even if you do a bad job of it, it's nothing for me to refer to you as the gender in which you wish to be. That is not being PC, that is just being respectful.

[Jasadin]

Tranvestites dress up exclusively for sexual gratification.


Crossdressers do it because it fulfills a need to express stuff which is usually repressed in male mode.The vast majority of xdressers are white middle aged heterosexual married men.They are happy as men and identify as being male.The time one might dress varies from a few minutes to fulltime(with a accepting wife).Some are way in the closet and others go out and interact.They might want to be called "she" but they don't believe they are in the wrong body like a TS.


Sometimes a ts mislabels herself as a crossdresser.Every girl starts somewhere different.I was gonna go into details but the previous post covers it.

[ace]

If they want to be identified as a woman, it's she. If they want to be identified as a man, it's he.

How hard is that?

Agree with you 100%!!!!

[RangeHova]

Tranvestites dress up exclusively for sexual gratification.

This isn't meant as an argument because I'm not saying that you are wrong.

But when did crossdressing and transvestism become two separate things. I have read pieces that made a separation between the two but I have read just as many (probably more) that didn't. Most pros in the field see it as two different labels for the same things.

I really think there are all kinds of degrees and variations of transgenderism, transvestism, crossdressing, transexualism, homosexuality, bisexuality, heterosexuality to even the admiration us men feel for transsexual women.

With all the labels and degrees of whatever, I really do just try to let people define themselves. I ain't walked in thier shoes so I'll be damned if I'll pass judgement. Those neat little boxes just aren't made for a lot of people.

[Tiffany Anne]

I have not worked this hard to get to where I am today for some guy to put on a dress and be grouped into the same category as me. I am a TS or transsexual. I am not a CD, TV, Drag Queen or anything else.

I hate the word transgendered. It is an umbrella term that the medical community came up with to group anyone of gender difference together. WE ARE NOT ALL THE SAME.
.....

People were also talking about Kayla Koxx, in my opinion she is just "dressing up" to make some cash. I doubt she wants to have any kind of full change.



Ya know, I've really been content to lurk around here...just read the posts..learn more about a community I'm perhaps on the outskirts of, look at the pictures and so forth. I'm a cross-dresser, and as this is a board for "shemales", this isn't my forum...I got my own place to talk...but this..this I gotta post about.

Julie...you list your occupation as "escort". Now, if that's how you want to live your life...go for it. I hope it brings you happiness or whatever it is you're seeking. But let's strip away the flowery words here, you're a whore! And if you still have your dick, then you're no more a woman than I am. Who the hell are you to judge anybody else.

And you are the same as everyone else. A human being trying to get by in the world, who has a problem with something about themselves. Whether it be that you have a penis you don't want, a compulsion to wear a dress, have the wrong color hair, or feel you're too skinny or fat, you're just like EVERYBODY ELSE!


(for the record, I don't gender identify as female, and wouldn't want to be called "she", and would never distribute pictures of myself in girl mode as who wants to look at an ugly pseudo-girl-thing. And if I misread Julie's post, I apologize in advance, but I tend to doubt it.)

[Jasadin]

Tranvestites dress up exclusively for sexual gratification.

This isn't meant as an argument because I'm not saying that you are wrong.

But when did crossdressing and transvestism become two separate things. I have read pieces that made a separation between the two but I have read just as many (probably more) that didn't. Most pros in the field see it as two different labels for the same things.

I really think there are all kinds of degrees and variations of transgenderism, transvestism, crossdressing, transexualism, homosexuality, bisexuality, heterosexuality to even the admiration us men feel for transsexual women.

With all the labels and degrees of whatever, I really do just try to let people define themselves. I ain't walked in thier shoes so I'll be damned if I'll pass judgement. Those neat little boxes just aren't made for a lot of people.


Remember at one time all of these labels were in one box(transgenderism, transvestism, crossdressing, transexualism)under "gay".
Gay people got together and defined what it is to be gay.So did the transsexuals and crossdressers.This site is all about ts.Everyone here is interested in ts in some form.You got the same thing out there for crossdressers.A whole lifestyle and culture dedicated to crossdressers.A 6'5"guy 300lb guy with a size 12 foot can order crossdressers clothes and some heels to match.My point is they decided and created a nince for it.

[RangeHova]

[quote="RangeHova"][quote=Jasadin]A 6'5"guy 300lb guy with a size 12 foot...

But what if that person really is a TS? What if that person is a TS that didn't go as far as others for whatever reason? Some males that dress occasionally or ones that never dress are really TS. Granted, I sure as hell would not be interested in a post with pictures of them on it, like i said that is not my cup of tea. I'll just move on to the next post.

But just because I don't find them attractive, they don't live fulltime, pass, or look like enough like women does not mean that they are less TS.

In my time, I've meet some absolutely beautiful women that live fulltime and are extremely passable. Quite a few have proven to me not to truly be TS after you sit down and talk to them and get to know them. Some will tell you themselves.

Hey, I'm just an open kinda person. Just because I don't find you attractive, just because i don't want to fuck you doesn't mean that others won't. I'm sure plenty of guys on this board would take plenty of attractive CDs if given the chance.

Who knows, that tall 300lber with the big feet just might take those steps to become worthy of the title Hung Angel.

Also, I don't think professionals in the field of gender related issues ever labeled any type of gender issued indivuals under the gay label, maybe general society but they still do to a large extent.

[ezed]

Who cares! If you don't like them don't hit them. Leave it alone.

Generalizations suck.

Everybody attacks everybody (including me)! You know what? All of us really don't know shit, including myself.

Until you walk in someones shoes, not the label, but that particular person's shoes, you really don't know shit. But it is sometimes fun to speculate and call people retards. I know I enjoy doing this.

But is so fun to run with the published opinion of a so called expert who no one's ever met ..... and castigate others.

Hey, I've had a period of retrospection. Or let's just say I had a period, since all the spelling bee champions will be chomping at the bit to call me out on my spelling of retro whatever the fuck.

Sorry Dark Thanos, sorry Death(I know nothing about death)Fox. Ossemipi, come here you retard let me tussle your hair.

You know what? We are all blowhards! AND I LOVE IT! That's what makes this place fun.

SO LET'S HAVE AT IT YOU SPECIAL OLYMPIANS! I'M ENTERING THE JAVILIN CONTEST BECAUSE I LIKE SPEARS!

(damn, I think ezed is wigging out?) No just putting it all in prospective.

I love all you retards (me included). So now the big question.....

AM I GAY?

[NYTSJulie]

I have not worked this hard to get to where I am today for some guy to put on a dress and be grouped into the same category as me. I am a TS or transsexual. I am not a CD, TV, Drag Queen or anything else.

I hate the word transgendered. It is an umbrella term that the medical community came up with to group anyone of gender difference together. WE ARE NOT ALL THE SAME.
.....

People were also talking about Kayla Koxx, in my opinion she is just "dressing up" to make some cash. I doubt she wants to have any kind of full change.



Ya know, I've really been content to lurk around here...just read the posts..learn more about a community I'm perhaps on the outskirts of, look at the pictures and so forth. I'm a cross-dresser, and as this is a board for "shemales", this isn't my forum...I got my own place to talk...but this..this I gotta post about.

Julie...you list your occupation as "escort". Now, if that's how you want to live your life...go for it. I hope it brings you happiness or whatever it is you're seeking. But let's strip away the flowery words here, you're a whore! And if you still have your dick, then you're no more a woman than I am. Who the hell are you to judge anybody else.

And you are the same as everyone else. A human being trying to get by in the world, who has a problem with something about themselves. Whether it be that you have a penis you don't want, a compulsion to wear a dress, have the wrong color hair, or feel you're too skinny or fat, you're just like EVERYBODY ELSE!


(for the record, I don't gender identify as female, and wouldn't want to be called "she", and would never distribute pictures of myself in girl mode as who wants to look at an ugly pseudo-girl-thing. And if I misread Julie's post, I apologize in advance, but I tend to doubt it.)

I am not even going to respond to this.

[RangeHova]

[quote=NYTSJulie]It's a bit offensive to know that any man can just throw on some make up, a wig and still dress the respects of being called a woman. As transsexuals/shemales or whatever term you wish to use, we earn it because we live it.

I feel what you are saying, but calling them 'she' or 'her' is far from equating what they do with what you do.

I'm a member of a few labels, minorities, and groups. I'm tall, I'm Black, I'm Latin I'm a professional, I live in the south... whatever. That doesn't mean that each and ever other person who is refered to by any of those titles is my equal or the same. That title has no reference to anything else. Those titles aren't at all about who I am as a person, what I have, or how I live my life.

I know that you would like the world to not see you in the same light as someone like that but only a truly ignorant person would do that. And that ignorant person probably would lump you in the same box no matter what the label was.

I really used to do the same thing until my ex did some shows for some CD groups and events. If you really get to know a lot of them, they don't do it for sexual reasons at all. Many of them really have genuine gender issues that have nothing to do with sex. It's not uncommon for many CDs to end up going all the way (fulltime to surgery).

Being transgendered or even transsexual has no bearing on how much time or effort you put into being who you are. It's not about how you live, how you dress or how you have developed you female image. You are no more transsexual now that you pass, have the body, the vagina, or live as a female than you were before you laid hands on a piece of female attire.

You were who you are in your heart and mind when your outer image was all male. It has nothing to do with anyone else but you. How the world sees you and accepts you doesn't change who you are, you aren't more TS now than you were when you were only dreaming about doing what you have now done.

That is not to say that what you have dones doesn't deserve merit.

[ezed]

Sorry Dark Thanos

what was the point of my name being in this post?

I was mouthing off, and remembered our arguments in other threads, so I apoligized. It has nothing to do with this thread.

[MacShreach]

(for the record, I don't gender identify as female, and wouldn't want to be called "she", and would never distribute pictures of myself in girl mode as who wants to look at an ugly pseudo-girl-thing. )

In other words, you're another cross-dresser. With pea lip. A TS is something quite different. And as for your calling other people "whore," so what the fuck? Whatever else Julie might be she's honest and she is what she is and lives the life she has chosen. Speaking for myself, I certainly wouldn't look down on someone who provides sexual services on a professional basis any more than I would look down on my dentist, doctor, lawyer, whatever. But that's just me, and I know some people take a more "righteous" view.

It's not about how you present. It's about how you identify yourself. A man dressed as a woman is a man dressed as a woman because that man still, underneath it all, as you yourself rightly say, sees himself as a man. A TS sees herself as a woman (assuming we're talking about MTF) and it doesn't matter a fuck what she's wearing, she's still a woman. If my wife puts on my jeans and sweater to go and get the mail, does that mean she gets called "he?" Of course not. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH OUTER APPEARANCE AND EVERYTHING TO DO WITH INNER SENSE OF SELF. Christ this is basic stuff, get the fuck up to speed people.

[RangeHova]

IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH OUTER APPEARANCE AND EVERYTHING TO DO WITH INNER SENSE OF SELF.

But how do you really know what goes on in the mind or the inner self of that guy in a dress without doing some serious talking to them? There is a reason why almost ever TS that transitions later in life has spent many years indentifying themselves as men, as male, as crossdressers, and as transvestites.

And what about the beautiful girls that we see here on HA, we don't know shit about what goes on in thier minds. I have know some beautiful, fulltime girls, who go into dressing, transitioning, hormones, silicone, and more for reasons more to do with a certain status that comes with being a pretty trans on the scene.

Like who you like and don't like who you don't like, just don't go too deep into judgements without knowing the person.

[MacShreach]

IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH OUTER APPEARANCE AND EVERYTHING TO DO WITH INNER SENSE OF SELF.

But how do you really know what goes on in the mind or the inner self of that guy in a dress without doing some serious talking to them? There is a reason why almost ever TS that transitions later in life has spent many years indentifying themselves as men, as male, as crossdressers, and as transvestites.

And what about the beautiful girls that we see here on HA, we don't know shit about what goes on in thier minds. I have know some beautiful, fulltime girls, who go into dressing, transitioning, hormones, silicone, and more for reasons more to do with a certain status that comes with being a pretty trans on the scene.

Like who you like and don't like who you don't like, just don't go too deep into judgements without knowing the person.

The motives for transformation, and that sometimes these motives may have a lot to do with perceived financial or social benefit, is not an area people--I mean men of course-- here seem to want to get into too much. A good percentage at least, possibly even a majority, want a dick that can fuck them good attached to a body that will allow them to pretend that they're not gay. Confusing the simple issue--anal gratification+moviestar looks--with what's actually going on in the object of sexual desire's head is not really what they're up for. I guess it's a little hard to spare time to wonder what's going on in a person's mind when you're on your hands and knees screaming "Fuck me like a bitch. "

There are other men who are trying to get more of a handle on what's inside the TGirl persona. Why are they such fun to be with? What makes them tick? There are moments of shared intimacy and common humour that a man can have with a tgirl that, at least in my experience, you can't with a GG. Maybe it's just because there's no mysterious plumbing, strange and unusual rhythms, routine and periodic mood swings. Maybe, too, it has to do with the fact that tgirl chooses to be a woman, while a GG got landed with it, and sometimes they are even a little bitter. Certainly I never heard of a Tgirl suffering from "penis envy" (in fact most of us are in envy of some tgirl penises......)

Very very few crossdressers actually transition, because really they are just men with a weird freak. Many CD's are fully hetero and enjoy conventional sex with a GG (often their wives) while dressed in women's clothing. I do accept that there is a point in every real TS's life where she is still a male in every physical respect but has gender identified as female and so desires to look female, and be taken as one, both in terms of her social and sexual relationships. That's just not the same thing as a man dressing up in drag for kicks.

Okay, so in a very few cases, the CD imight actually be a beginning TS, probably one who left it all a bit too late. But in the vast majority of cases he is just a man in drag seeking sexual gratification. Should every crossdressing clothes fetishist out on the prowl get called "she," when we know damn fine Joanna will be plain old Joe in a suit back at the office on Monday, and is it fair to confuse girls who struggle to become their female selves, with all the pain, emotional turmoil, and hardship that entails, with these male sexual adventurers? No, I don't think it is.

[Phat]

I can't beleive some of the people on here are so bold as to say unless one has had cosmetic surgery, they are not truly what gender they identify with. Do you even know what a transexual is?

If some one has always felt like they should be a woman, but haven't yet taken steps to become one, if they even plan to at all, they still are 'transexuals', whether you want to fuck them or not.

This all goes back to gender and sexuality, two exclusive things. The brain of a transexual, or even transgendered person is not the same as a regular man's.

Now of course there are just fetish tranvestites, but I don't think they'd argue that they have the gender identity of a woman.

So whether or not some one deserves to be called something is completely irrelevant. A person will identify with the gender they want to regardless of what you think.

[MacShreach]

I can't beleive (sic) some of the people on here are so bold as to say unless one has had cosmetic surgery, they are not truly what gender they identify with.

Who said that?


Do you even know what a transexual is?

I do. I'm pretty sure Julie does. In fact I'll lay odds most regulars here know what a transexual is. Whom are you referring to, exactly?




If some one has always felt like they should be a woman, but haven't yet taken steps to become one, if they even plan to at all, they still are 'transexuals', whether you want to fuck them or not.

This all goes back to gender and sexuality, two exclusive things. The brain of a transexual, or even transgendered person is not the same as a regular man's.

Now of course there are just fetish tranvestites, but I don't think they'd argue that they have the gender identity of a woman.

So whether or not some one deserves to be called something is completely irrelevant. A person will identify with the gender they want to regardless of what you think.

The way I understand it, this is a pretty lightweight poll about the opinions of HA members here on HA. It's different outside the HA club. If I meet a CD or transvestite I don't go running up, slap them on the shoulder and shout "Hey dude, fancy a beer?" Maybe some people really are that insensitive, but I don't think there are many members here like that. They may have other faults, but I doubt if they're crass like that.

If I meet a CD or a transvestite, while dressed, who, shall we say, is less than convincing, in order to be polite, I call that person "she." Why would I gratuitously hurt someone's feelings? But I would be thinking of that person as a him. I certainly would not be attracted.

What we're allowed to say here in the club and how we behave out in the real world are two totally different things. This place has a history of people expressing their opinions openly. And as far as I'm concerned, Allanah, Julie, Vicki, Dannielle, any of the girls whose pictures we see so regularly, are highly attractive women and that's that. But people like Kayla Coxx, or Jamie Cross, both very convincing cross dressers, are not. And six foot dockers with blue jowls, knuckles trailing the ground and a beer belly dressed up in drag, can just forget it. NOwhere near passing muster. I'm sorry if they feel hurt, but it's too bad. I wouldn't deliberately show them up in public, but that is my opinion.

This is not about how things are in the world out there. This is about what HA members think in here. Okay?

[Phat]

I can't beleive (sic) some of the people on here are so bold as to say unless one has had cosmetic surgery, they are not truly what gender they identify with.

Who said that?


Do you even know what a transexual is?

I do. I'm pretty sure Julie does. In fact I'll lay odds most regulars here know what a transexual is. Whom are you referring to, exactly?




If some one has always felt like they should be a woman, but haven't yet taken steps to become one, if they even plan to at all, they still are 'transexuals', whether you want to fuck them or not.

This all goes back to gender and sexuality, two exclusive things. The brain of a transexual, or even transgendered person is not the same as a regular man's.

Now of course there are just fetish tranvestites, but I don't think they'd argue that they have the gender identity of a woman.

So whether or not some one deserves to be called something is completely irrelevant. A person will identify with the gender they want to regardless of what you think.

The way I understand it, this is a pretty lightweight poll about the opinions of HA members here on HA. It's different outside the HA club. If I meet a CD or transvestite I don't go running up, slap them on the shoulder and shout "Hey dude, fancy a beer?" Maybe some people really are that insensitive, but I don't think there are many members here like that. They may have other faults, but I doubt if they're crass like that.

If I meet a CD or a transvestite, while dressed, who, shall we say, is less than convincing, in order to be polite, I call that person "she." Why would I gratuitously hurt someone's feelings? But I would be thinking of that person as a him. I certainly would not be attracted.

What we're allowed to say here in the club and how we behave out in the real world are two totally different things. This place has a history of people expressing their opinions openly. And as far as I'm concerned, Allanah, Julie, Vicki, Dannielle, any of the girls whose pictures we see so regularly, are highly attractive women and that's that. But people like Kayla Coxx, or Jamie Cross, both very convincing cross dressers, are not. And six foot dockers with blue jowls, knuckles trailing the ground and a beer belly dressed up in drag, can just forget it. NOwhere near passing muster. I'm sorry if they feel hurt, but it's too bad. I wouldn't deliberately show them up in public, but that is my opinion.

This is not about how things are in the world out there. This is about what HA members think in here. Okay?

I think that's your problem, not every TS is as atractive as allanah. Maybe seeing a post-op non-passable TS would change your mind. biologically all TS are male, there is nothing that can change that.

the gender they identify with and live as is a whole other aspect. If some blatantly masculine guy in drag wanted to be identified as a woman, I'd give them that. In my mind, that's all it takes. It doesn't mean I'd want to be with them sexually.

[MacShreach]

I think that's your problem, not every TS is as atractive as allanah. Maybe seeing a post-op non-passable TS would change your mind. biologically all TS are male, there is nothing that can change that.

I have no problem, rookie, believe me. And in which way might my mind need changing? Leaving aside the fact that I do know quite a few not very convincing post-ops whom I nevertheless think of and address as "she?"

How about you read the thread title before you fire up your mouth. We're not talking about post-ops, convincing or otherwise. And we're not talking about pre-ops either. We're talking about cross dressers, in other words clothes fetishists, men who identify as men who dress up as women for sexual gratification. Their own self identification is as men, and I rightly term such a person "he." You maybe want to bone up on your own understanding before you start questioning others'.

Are we coming up to speed yet, whizz? BTW I advise you to watch the presumptious tone when addressing me, I have a reputation you maybe don't know about...............yet.



8) 8) 8) Muaahahahaha

[Phat]

I think that's your problem, not every TS is as atractive as allanah. Maybe seeing a post-op non-passable TS would change your mind. biologically all TS are male, there is nothing that can change that.

I have no problem, rookie, believe me. And in which way might my mind need changing? Leaving aside the fact that I do know quite a few not very convincing post-ops whom I nevertheless think of and address as "she?"

How about you read the thread title before you fire up your mouth. We're not talking about post-ops, convincing or otherwise. And we're not talking about pre-ops either. We're talking about cross dressers, in other words clothes fetishists, men who identify as men who dress up as women for sexual gratification. Their own self identification is as men, and I rightly term such a person "he." You maybe want to bone up on your own understanding before you start questioning others'.

Are we coming up to speed yet, whizz? BTW I advise you to watch the presumptious tone when addressing me, I have a reputation you maybe don't know about...............yet.



8) 8) 8) Muaahahahaha

ok well I didn't know we were talking stricly crossdressers who dress for sexual gratification. I felt the tone of the thread did categorize a lot of transgendered as simply sexual fetishists, but maybe I'm wrong.

and as far as postcount goes, I don't beleive more posts = more intelligence, so don't expect me to agree with everything everyone says just because I have all of ten or so.

[Phat]

ok well I didn't know we were talking stricly crossdressers who dress for sexual gratification.


"Does a cross dressing man deserve to be called "She"?"


that is the title of the thread you are posting in...that should have been the first clue...

well the title is misleading. there is more than one reason that a man will crossdress, therefore you can't say whether or not they "deserve" to be called female.

but, if you're speaking strictly biological, then why would any transexual pre-op or post-op ever be called 'female'. they would not, regardless of opinion. it's gender-identity that comes into play.

[Phat]

I believe the reason this thread was even created was due to another thread created titled "If I shaved my legs?", where a CD outright asked if the guys on here would fuck him if he shaved his legs...I think that is the CD for sexual gratification Mac was getting at...that doesn't sound like gender confusion, it sounds like the guy is a homosexual...

that may very well be, and I never said that all crossdressers were transgendered, but some are, so I was sticking up for them.

as for the other thread that's just creepy haha

[joannajet]

Hi all,

It is a delight to see a post that leads to a valuable debate.

To put in my two pennies worth, I see the answer to this question as a matter of respect to others.

If someone wishes to be referred to as he, she, Emperor, Messiah or even Martian, then I am happy to do so as a matter of respect for their individuality, because at the end of the day, to comply with their wish will not bring my world to an end but it may very well make a huge difference to theirs.

Personally, I consider labels to be a curse of today's society. Why can't we simply accept Jane for being Jane and John for being John without trying to squeeze them into a stereotypical box for our own self-comfort?

A moment of zen from yours truly,

Joanna Jet
xxx

[MacShreach]

I believe the reason this thread was even created was due to another thread created titled "If I shaved my legs?", where a CD outright asked if the guys on here would fuck him if he shaved his legs...I think that is the CD for sexual gratification Mac was getting at...that doesn't sound like gender confusion, it sounds like the guy is a homosexual...

:D

Got nothing against homosexuals, crossdressers, you name it. Anything anyone wants to do to get their sex thang going, so long as they do it with people who are of an age to consent and do so, is fine by me. I just think we should be honest about it.

[Phat]

I believe the reason this thread was even created was due to another thread created titled "If I shaved my legs?", where a CD outright asked if the guys on here would fuck him if he shaved his legs...I think that is the CD for sexual gratification Mac was getting at...that doesn't sound like gender confusion, it sounds like the guy is a homosexual...

:D

Got nothing against homosexuals, crossdressers, you name it. Anything anyone wants to do to get their sex thang going, so long as they do it with people who are of an age to consent and do so, is fine by me. I just think we should be honest about it.

well then, honestly that guy is realy creepy lol

[MacShreach]

Hi all,

It is a delight to see a post that leads to a valuable debate.

To put in my two pennies worth, I see the answer to this question as a matter of respect to others.
<snip>

Joanna Jet
xxx

Yup. Agreed. That is why, as I said, even if I met the most obvious cross dresser, I would play the game sweet. I really don't believe in hurting or insulting people gratuitously. (Thinks a moment.) Well not in the real world anyway....

But if we're being honest about what I think, then it's different. Joanna, you put a huge amount of time and commitment into transitioning. I believe that merits a greater respect than the guy who spends his regular life as a man and goes out as a woman on Friday for a kick. That's it really.

[Phat]

Hi all,

It is a delight to see a post that leads to a valuable debate.

To put in my two pennies worth, I see the answer to this question as a matter of respect to others.
<snip>

Joanna Jet
xxx

Yup. Agreed. That is why, as I said, even if I met the most obvious cross dresser, I would play the game sweet. I really don't believe in hurting or insulting people gratuitously. (Thinks a moment.) Well not in the real world anyway....

But if we're being honest about what I think, then it's different. Joanna, you put a huge amount of time and commitment into transitioning. I believe that merits a greater respect than the guy who spends his regular life as a man and goes out as a woman on Friday for a kick. That's it really.

I agree completely, the only people I was arguing for are the transgendered who crossdress full time.

[Phat]

Hi all,

It is a delight to see a post that leads to a valuable debate.

To put in my two pennies worth, I see the answer to this question as a matter of respect to others.
<snip>

Joanna Jet
xxx

Yup. Agreed. That is why, as I said, even if I met the most obvious cross dresser, I would play the game sweet. I really don't believe in hurting or insulting people gratuitously. (Thinks a moment.) Well not in the real world anyway....

But if we're being honest about what I think, then it's different. Joanna, you put a huge amount of time and commitment into transitioning. I believe that merits a greater respect than the guy who spends his regular life as a man and goes out as a woman on Friday for a kick. That's it really.

I agree completely, the only people I was arguing for are the transgendered who crossdress full time who maybe just cannot afford surgery or do not wish to get surgery.

[joannajet]

Hi,

The posts that have followed my comments, whilst respected for their opinions, have also served to emphasize the nexus of this debate.

By the setting of personal boundaries such as "full-time" or "not convincing", the author is declaring their opinion of right or wrong upon another individual.

Whilst I am grateful of being recognised in these posts as qualifying (in the view of others) as a "she", the fact remains that I felt as such way before my physical appearance aided and abeited this label.

What qualifications or status grants upon us justification to make judgement above and beyond the personal rights of others?
I am bestowed by posters to this board the right of "she" but as the British tabloids demonstrated when they ripped me apart a couple of years ago, I was very much a "he".

If I wish to be regarded as "she" in the face of contradictory views, how can I possibly deny this right to any other??

The question is therefore, can you??

Or to put it another way, are civil rights a rightful action or simply bestowed when it suits us??

Yours,

Joanna Jet
xxx

[Phat]

Hi,

The posts that have followed my comments, whilst respected for their opinions, have also served to emphasize the nexus of this debate.

By the setting of personal boundaries such as "full-time" or "not convincing", the author is declaring their opinion of right or wrong upon another individual.

Whilst I am grateful of being recognised in these posts as qualifying (in the view of others) as a "she", the fact remains that I felt as such way before my physical appearance aided and abeited this label.

What qualifications or status grants upon us justification to make judgement above and beyond the personal rights of others?
I am bestowed by posters to this board the right of "she" but as the British tabloids demonstrated when they ripped me apart a couple of years ago, I was very much a "he".

If I wish to be regarded as "she" in the face of contradictory views, how can I possibly deny this right to any other??

The question is therefore, can you??

Or to put it another way, are civil rights a rightful action or simply bestowed when it suits us??

Yours,

Joanna Jet
xxx

I agree, you just can't worry about what other people think

[AllanahStarrNYC]

there is a clear difference between being a transsexual, crossdresser, tv, or drag queen.

though the terms are often used as interchangeable labels to describe a tg person-

there is clearly a difference between someone who surgically alters his/her body & takes hormones to change their physical appearance- someone who dresses in the oposites sex clothing for sexual gratification, or someone who does it to perform, or for fun.

they are not the same things.

if someone lives as the opposite sex FULL time, then sheor he is a transsexual

if someone is 'part time' then they are not- simple

though it would be peoper etiquette to address someone with the proper pro-noun as they express their gender threough dress at the moment

it has been my experience that most tv's, drag queens, and cd's, see themselves as men and reffer to themselves as 'he' when out of 'drag'

[MacShreach]

there is a clear difference between being a transsexual, crossdresser, tv, or drag queen.

though the terms are often used as interchangeable labels to describe a tg person-

there is clearly a difference between someone who surgically alters his/her body & takes hormones to change their physical appearance- someone who dresses in the oposites sex clothing for sexual gratification, or someone who does it to perform, or for fun.

they are not the same things.

if someone lives as the opposite sex FULL time, then sheor he is a transsexual

if someone is 'part time' then they are not- simple

though it would be peoper etiquette to address someone with the proper pro-noun as they express their gender threough dress at the moment

it has been my experience that most tv's, drag queens, and cd's, see themselves as men and reffer to themselves as 'he' when out of 'drag'

Exactly, and eloquently put as always.

[Ecstatic]

Just because it quacks like a duck, it ain't necessarily a duck. When I started reading this thread, I was going to post extensively in response, but Mac, Joanna, and Allanah have covered the ground I was going to cover far more eloquently than I would have. Well said, all. All I'll add is that, from the outside looking at someone else, without knowing that person, it's difficult if not impossible to say whether they are crossdressing (defined as Mac defined it above) or transitioning. I do think there's a difference, which is not evident based on immediate appearance, between dressing and transitioning, where dressing is part of the process in the latter case but the process entire in the former.

I also agree with the etiquette of addressing anyone presenting as a woman as "she" while dressed; that is only common courtesey.

[endo420]

The aye's have it. Cross-dressers and transvestites will thus be referred to as "he" in all future posts. Just because someone puts on wig and makeup does not make them a she or worthy of that distinction. Because someone shaves their legs it does not make them a woman. It might make them a professional bicycle rider. The overwhelming majority here seem to agree.

My next question: At what stage does the balance of power change? For example, when a cross dresser does laser, or breast implants, or none of the above but begins living as a woman. What enables them to become "she"? If Dick Cheney started dressing and living and dressing as a woman tomorrow, looking exactly like he does. Does he get to have us call him her or she?

[RangeHova]

there is a clear difference between being a transsexual, crossdresser, tv, or drag queen.

I think in most cases that is true but in the time that I have been around girls and got to know people I have found that in many cases the lines bewteen the titles can be blurred.

One of my good friends is a drag queen but since I know her and we have really talked on much deeper levels she really shows distinct feelings of being transsexual, she's just not willing to do the fulltime thing for a multitude of reasons. The fact that 'she' lives most of her social life in the role of a female is enough for her.

I've known other lived as females on the scene and lived androgynous outside of the scene. We have all seen the girls who lives revolve around the scene and the rest of the world, the rest of thier life is just about sleeping, eating, and getting ready for the next show, ball, party, club, trick, etc.

Like I mentioned in other replies to this post, many CDs and TVs spend years not all that in touch with thier transsexual feelings and end up transitioning later on in life. The GRS surgeon on that HBO special on gender was a prime example of that. She spent years thinking she was arun of the mill male who happened to like panties and bras under her scrubs then later realized that she was a TS then went on to get surgery. Her story is not that rare.

[Jamie Michelle]

OK.. then all these are she... and the only thing that makes a he a he and a she a she is the cloths they wear, a wig, and makeup.


Quite. When a man dresses up in a skirt he is still a man in a skirt. A male who turns himself into a woman, takes hormones, perhaps undergoes surgery but most of all lives as a woman is TS and gets called "she." As in "She earned it."

Everyone who posts on this forum is a faggot. You can call anyone you want a she, but if you fuck them and they're a genetic male, you're still fucking a genetic male. It feels nice to pretend, but never forget that.

Now, there are all kinds of faggots. Some faggots are more feminine than others. Some are so feminine that it makes other faggots feel as if they're straight when they're fucking another male. But you're still a faggot.

So, we've got a faggot asking the question as to which faggots ought to be called a "she." The answer to that question is to ask the faggot who is being addressed. That is the polite and proper thing to do.

But of course, some of the faggots here are disturbed by that notion, since they want to pretend that they aren't a faggot, and that pretention is easier in their own minds when they can make a distinction as to the other faggots they term "she" or "he." So if they fuck another genetic male they term a "she," then all is well in the world. Of course, other genetic males who aren't quite as feminine ought not be called a "she," as that would confuse the pretention in their own minds of themselves not being a faggot. And we musn't have that.

Hence we get silly questions by insecure faggots asking which of the other faggots ought to be called "she" or "he."

[katieftv]

[quote="AllanahStarrNYC"]there is a clear difference between being a transsexual, crossdresser, tv, or drag queen.

IMO and IME there is a big differenec between being a CD and being a TV. I first dressed at the age of 7. When I dress I like to do the whole thing makeup, wig fully shaved etc.

IMO a CD only concentrates from the neck down hence the rather unfortunate term here in the UK for most CDs of "Hairy Panties Wearers"

Again IMO being CD is more about a fetish for female clothing where as to me being TV is so much more.

When dressed I like to be refered to as "she" to be called mate, guy, bud etc is insulting. I go out dressed unlike most CDs. There is a whole world of difference but also a whole world of different CDs and TVs.

Each to their own, do your own thing, be waht you are and call yourself what you will. Unfortunately many TSs look down on us TVs thinking they are in some way better than us CDs/TVs Shame really. TVs IMO are all to some extent TRANSGENDERED. Just my 2 pence worth.

[Teabagger Vance]

Quite. When a man dresses up in a skirt he is still a man in a skirt. A male who turns himself into a woman, takes hormones, perhaps undergoes surgery but most of all lives as a woman is TS and gets called "she." As in "She earned it."

Everyone who posts on this forum is a faggot. You can call anyone you want a she, but if you fuck them and they're a genetic male, you're still fucking a genetic male. It feels nice to pretend, but never forget that.

Now, there are all kinds of faggots. Some faggots are more feminine than others. Some are so feminine that it makes other faggots feel as if they're straight when they're fucking another male. But you're still a faggot.

So, we've got a faggot asking the question as to which faggots ought to be called a "she." The answer to that question is to ask the faggot who is being addressed. That is the polite and proper thing to do.

But of course, some of the faggots here are disturbed by that notion, since they want to pretend that they aren't a faggot, and that pretention is easier in their own minds when they can make a distinction as to the other faggots they term "she" or "he." So if they fuck another genetic male they term a "she," then all is well in the world. Of course, other genetic males who aren't quite as feminine ought not be called a "she," as that would confuse the pretention in their own minds of themselves not being a faggot. And we musn't have that.

Hence we get silly questions by insecure faggots asking which of the other faggots ought to be called "she" or "he."

Who are you to presume to speak for everyone on this board?

You're no more than a troll. Go back under your bridge.

[MacShreach]

Everyone who posts on this forum is a faggot. You can call anyone you want a she, but if you fuck them and they're a genetic male, you're still fucking a genetic male. <snip for stupidity>

Who are you to presume to speak for everyone on this board?

You're no more than a troll. Go back under your bridge.

I'd call that a correct ID. 8)

[Kirky25]

a CD shouldnt be called she

[HornieHubbieinCT]

CD, TS, T-girl, Transvestite, Drag Queen, X-Dresser, whatever....

Folks should be called whatever they want to be called. That simple. If some guy who looks like Arite Lange wants to be referred to in the feminine, what right to I have to fuck around with her self-image? I might snigger in private, but what does it cost me to make her happy? Nothing.

Just my 2 sense

HH

[Jamie Michelle]

Quite. When a man dresses up in a skirt he is still a man in a skirt. A male who turns himself into a woman, takes hormones, perhaps undergoes surgery but most of all lives as a woman is TS and gets called "she." As in "She earned it."

Everyone who posts on this forum is a faggot. You can call anyone you want a she, but if you fuck them and they're a genetic male, you're still fucking a genetic male. It feels nice to pretend, but never forget that.

Now, there are all kinds of faggots. Some faggots are more feminine than others. Some are so feminine that it makes other faggots feel as if they're straight when they're fucking another male. But you're still a faggot.

So, we've got a faggot asking the question as to which faggots ought to be called a "she." The answer to that question is to ask the faggot who is being addressed. That is the polite and proper thing to do.

But of course, some of the faggots here are disturbed by that notion, since they want to pretend that they aren't a faggot, and that pretention is easier in their own minds when they can make a distinction as to the other faggots they term "she" or "he." So if they fuck another genetic male they term a "she," then all is well in the world. Of course, other genetic males who aren't quite as feminine ought not be called a "she," as that would confuse the pretention in their own minds of themselves not being a faggot. And we musn't have that.

Hence we get silly questions by insecure faggots asking which of the other faggots ought to be called "she" or "he."

Who are you to presume to speak for everyone on this board?

You're no more than a troll. Go back under your bridge.

So are you saying that you're a genetic female? Because if you're not, that means you're a genetic male coming here and getting off sexually by looking at other genetic males, i.e., a genetic male who gets off sexually by looking at cocks and balls.

Stop being so insecure about yourself. There's nothing wrong with those desires of yours.

[Deepdarkfucker]

Hell No!!!!!!!!!

[endo420]

what does it cost me to make her happy? Nothing.


My thoughts exactly, when I see a man in a dress, I'll extole a compliment, why? It'll make "her" day and it didn't cost me anything!

Welcome Rookie

LOL @ "man in a dress" and "her"

I think what I read here is that TS have worked hard and done crazy things to be considered she/her and CD's have done really nothing except shave their body hair in some rare cases. Regardless of making his day, I don't think it is the right thing to do. Clearly a dress and pantyhose doesn't make him a her.

[Thor57]

not even her?

[endo420]

The masses have spoken and almost 80% of the people probably call them he. It's not just my opinion.

[Teabagger Vance]

So are you saying that you're a genetic female? Because if you're not, that means you're a genetic male coming here and getting off sexually by looking at other genetic males, i.e., a genetic male who gets off sexually by looking at cocks and balls.

Stop being so insecure about yourself. There's nothing wrong with those desires of yours.

There you go again! Making assumptions about anyone and everyone on this board. You made a blanket statement, which I correctly called as trolling.

Now you're calling me insecure, which I find quite hilarious.

Do you even kow anything about transsexualism? It appears doubtful.

[chefmike]

not even her?

Oprah...honey...is that you?

[HornieHubbieinCT]

endo420 wrote:


LOL @ "man in a dress" and "her"

I think what I read here is that TS have worked hard and done crazy things to be considered she/her and CD's have done really nothing except shave their body hair in some rare cases. Regardless of making his day, I don't think it is the right thing to do. Clearly a dress and pantyhose doesn't make him a her

Isn't this whole arguement fatuous? Who gave me or you the right to judge whose feminine or not? I don't think that you are being fair here. shaving body hair might have taken an incredible degree of intestinal fortitude for her.

And no, dress and pantyhose don't make him a her...it's an internal gender identification. Which is why I will use femenine pronouns, not where appropriate, but where desired

HH

[RangeHova]

My thoughts exactly, when I see a man in a dress...

But how do we know who is a man in a dress?

What if that man in a dress is a TS who just happens to not be pretty? Be early on in her transition?

What if that pretty girl in a dress is not a TS and doesn't feel like a woman or TS even though she has breast and what ever else? Some of the prettiest girls who may live as females feel like they are men.

Does that matter? Or is it all about looks?

[jessica_danyelle]

somewhere we do all start crossdresser aldo some of us just crossdress and others know from very young that they are not just crossdressers... like me for exemple... i have started on the late .. i started dressing at 16 but only realized at 28 that i am more than a crossdresser ... so i guess it all depends .. i would refer at a crossdresser as a women if she does look like a woman but probably refer to a crossdresser as a guy if he doesnt really look like a girl .. i guess we are all different in our aproach to that but if i was talking to the person a would refer to her as a girl to be polite and respectful !!

heres a pic ...im not on hormones yet ..how would you call me .. a man or a girl ???

[endo420]

That's a wig and your face hair is photoshop. A cute cross dressing boy...

[Teabagger Vance]

That's a wig and your face hair is photoshop. A cute cross dressing boy...

:trolls

Exactly how was endo420's reply's trollish? Jessica Danyelle solicited the opinions of people on the board, and endo supplied a direct answer. You might not like the answer, but it's not trolling.

For an example of trolling, please refer back to page 6 in this thread for Jamie Michelle's posts. THAT is trolling.

In my opinion, it is apparent that Jessica is early in her transition, but she does have potential.

[MacShreach]

That's a wig and your face hair is photoshop. A cute cross dressing boy...

:trolls

Exactly how was endo420's reply's trollish? Jessica Danyelle solicited the opinions of people on the board, and endo supplied a direct answer. You might not like the answer, but it's not trolling.


Seconded. Jessica has posted pictures elsewhere on the site that perhaps may make endo's reply seem more apt.

[jessica_danyelle]

That's a wig and your face hair is photoshop. A cute cross dressing boy...

well before saying shit you dont even know about maybee if you go and see on my msn space i have a video on there and it will surely show you that its not photoshop at all ..and i expect some appoligies after

http://spaces.msn.com/jessicadanyelle/

look at the vid theres no way i can fix a video with photo shop !!!!!
so please dont be hatin on me

[jessica_danyelle]

oh yeah just to let you know the video dont work for firefox .. so use the internet explorer to see the vid !!!!

[endo420]

nobody said you weren't attractive. you are a very good crossdresser. kayla is an attractive crossdresser too but he is still he and outside of make up nobody would ever confuse him for a woman. Just because you are better looking than your crossdressing friends on your sight who none of them I would consider 'she' doesnt make you be called she. but yes because of your fundamentals if you are dedicated you will make a very good woman someday. and anyone can cake on makeup for a video and hide face hair. you already said you didnt do anything about that yet in another post and had barely started hormones. and mds according to this poll crossdressers are boys or men. yell at the other 50 responders. now watch the crossdressers converge to try to skew the results.

[jessica_danyelle]

anyone can cake on makeup for a video and hide face hair. you already said you didnt do anything about that yet in another post and had barely started hormones.

i never said i hadnt do anything bout facial hair i said i wasnt on hormones yet ... i have had 5 laser session on my face ... so i dont know where u read that i had nothing done about that... and hey i never said i was a crossdresser i just said i wasnt on hormones yet ... i know im transexuel and will start hormones soon ... any way i dont really care what u think ..i know im for real ...thats all that matters

[hondarobot]

anyone can cake on makeup for a video and hide face hair. you already said you didnt do anything about that yet in another post and had barely started hormones.

i never said i hadnt do anything bout facial hair i said i wasnt on hormones yet ... i have had 5 laser session on my face ... so i dont know where u read that i had nothing done about that... and hey i never said i was a crossdresser i just said i wasnt on hormones yet ... i know im transexuel and will start hormones soon ... any way i dont really care what u think ..i know im for real ...thats all that matters

I saw another thread where you posted some full nude pics. Pretty face, very cute smile, I think you look great. Can't wait to see your boobs (assuming you going for boobs, who doesn't like boobs?).

Don't worry about the haters, just ignore 'em. They pop up all the time here trying to get attention.

:)

[RangeHova]

I'm begining to realize that a lot of people on this board have never read the definition of what a transsexual is.

It has nothing to do with how much work a girl has done, it has nothing to do with how she looks, who wants to fuck her or how much she is passable to anyone.

If Jessica or anyone else has thick stuble on her legs and face, hell is she had a beard like ZZ Top if in HER mind SHE is a female then SHE is a transsexual.

Looks don't have shit to do with it.

She will be no more of a transsexual as time passes and she becomes more feminine, passable, has breast, or even SRS than she is now.

But hey it's HA, all about body parts and pretty faces. Damn what's in a girl's head, especially if she doesn't give you a hardon. She's just another nasty half a fag to look down on.

[jessica_danyelle]

I'm begining to realize that a lot of people on this board have never read the definition of what a transsexual is.

It has nothing to do with how much work a girl has done, it has nothing to do with how she looks, who wants to fuck her or how much she is passable to anyone.

If Jessica or anyone else has thick stuble on her legs and face, hell is she had a beard like ZZ Top if in HER mind SHE is a female then SHE is a transsexual.

Looks don't have shit to do with it.

She will be no more of a transsexual as time passes and she becomes more feminine, passable, has breast, or even SRS than she is now.

But hey it's HA, all about body parts and pretty faces. Damn what's in a girl's head, especially if she doesn't give you a hardon. She's just another nasty half a fag to look down on.

i like that response alot .. finaly someone who knows waht they are talking about ... and i wasnt making this all about me . i was just giving an exemple that some start later then others and that i think that if the person
is juste dressing and not yet on hormones and dont look all that good they can still feel they are female inside !!! anyways nuff said !!!
later xoxox

[MacShreach]

Fuckin' Rookies! :evil:

Cool to insult rookies, now, mds? Your opinion is obviously the only possible correct one and you don't like the fact that other people disagree with it. Tough.

[GroobySteven]

I'm begining to realize that a lot of people on this board have never read the definition of what a transsexual is.

It has nothing to do with how much work a girl has done, it has nothing to do with how she looks, who wants to fuck her or how much she is passable to anyone.

If Jessica or anyone else has thick stuble on her legs and face, hell is she had a beard like ZZ Top if in HER mind SHE is a female then SHE is a transsexual.

Looks don't have shit to do with it.

She will be no more of a transsexual as time passes and she becomes more feminine, passable, has breast, or even SRS than she is now.

But hey it's HA, all about body parts and pretty faces. Damn what's in a girl's head, especially if she doesn't give you a hardon. She's just another nasty half a fag to look down on.

This is exactly right and what the definition of a transsexual is - the sooner some of you guys, girls and in-betweenies get this into your heads the better - and get over it, instead of having to sub-categorise each individual according to your whims and personal issues.
seanchai

[MacShreach]

Fuckin' Rookies! :evil:

Cool to insult rookies, now, mds? Your opinion is obviously the only possible correct one and you don't like the fact that other people disagree with it. Tough.

My Opinion is my Opinion, I don't care if other people don't agree, that's up to them, it's what makes us individuals. And I'm pretty sure you're not a Rookie, Mac, so what's it to you?


I'm just sticking up for the rookie. You have your opinion, that's fine. Calling somebody a "Fucking Rookie" because you don't happen to agree with what he says is out of line. That's all. Asides of which, I agree with Endo.

[endo420]

I'm begining to realize that a lot of people on this board have never read the definition of what a transsexual is.

It has nothing to do with how much work a girl has done, it has nothing to do with how she looks, who wants to fuck her or how much she is passable to anyone.

If Jessica or anyone else has thick stuble on her legs and face, hell is she had a beard like ZZ Top if in HER mind SHE is a female then SHE is a transsexual.

Looks don't have shit to do with it.

She will be no more of a transsexual as time passes and she becomes more feminine, passable, has breast, or even SRS than she is now.

But hey it's HA, all about body parts and pretty faces. Damn what's in a girl's head, especially if she doesn't give you a hardon. She's just another nasty half a fag to look down on.

No. You don't understand what a transsexual is. A transsexual isn't a ts in her mind only. In many ways the outward changes are the most significant so that mind and body match. As a small example, if a ts looks like a woman, she can use the ladies room without making the women uncomfortable. Please don't reply back with something about well the women are wrong for feeling uncomfortable. It is a travesty for a man to put on a dress and wig, suddenly say he is a woman, and then expect everyone to treat him as one. Then any crackpot could say, I'm a god, call me lord god from now on, or I am now an elephant and insist on living in a zoo. Wait. What makes you a god? I said I was one and am one in my mind. What makes you an elephant. I said I was one and I am in my mind. A cross dress is like a guy in an elephant suit and most of the time its pretty obvious its a guy in an elephant suit. I never said girls had to be pretty to be ts but there is some personal sacrifice involved which should be recognized with preferential treatment. What mds is saying is that his favorite boys are cross dresser. Isn't being expected to be called her, then walking inside your apartment and taking a shower and leaving with a crew cut and looking like eminem wanting your cake and eat it too? Sorry but most people dont feel that way. By the way, in my mind I am the president of Portugal. Please refer to me as YOUR EXCELLENCY from now on.

Your Excellency

[Phat]

I'm begining to realize that a lot of people on this board have never read the definition of what a transsexual is.

It has nothing to do with how much work a girl has done, it has nothing to do with how she looks, who wants to fuck her or how much she is passable to anyone.

If Jessica or anyone else has thick stuble on her legs and face, hell is she had a beard like ZZ Top if in HER mind SHE is a female then SHE is a transsexual.

Looks don't have shit to do with it.

She will be no more of a transsexual as time passes and she becomes more feminine, passable, has breast, or even SRS than she is now.

But hey it's HA, all about body parts and pretty faces. Damn what's in a girl's head, especially if she doesn't give you a hardon. She's just another nasty half a fag to look down on.

No. You don't understand what a transsexual is. A transsexual isn't a ts in her mind only. In many ways the outward changes are the most significant so that mind and body match. As a small example, if a ts looks like a woman, she can use the ladies room without making the women uncomfortable. Please don't reply back with something about well the women are wrong for feeling uncomfortable. It is a travesty for a man to put on a dress and wig, suddenly say he is a woman, and then expect everyone to treat him as one. Then any crackpot could say, I'm a god, call me lord god from now on, or I am now an elephant and insist on living in a zoo. Wait. What makes you a god? I said I was one and am one in my mind. What makes you an elephant. I said I was one and I am in my mind. A cross dress is like a guy in an elephant suit and most of the time its pretty obvious its a guy in an elephant suit. I never said girls had to be pretty to be ts but there is some personal sacrifice involved which should be recognized with preferential treatment. What mds is saying is that his favorite boys are cross dresser. Isn't being expected to be called her, then walking inside your apartment and taking a shower and leaving with a crew cut and looking like eminem wanting your cake and eat it too? Sorry but most people dont feel that way. By the way, in my mind I am the president of Portugal. Please refer to me as YOUR EXCELLENCY from now on.

Your Excellency

you're missing the point, transexuals don't just decide to be transexuals, they are born that way. Not like how a man in a dress is probably just dressing for the thrill or as a joke. With that in mind a transexual never has to have anything done to their outward appearence.

You seem to think a TS has to 'qualify' for the label. This just is not true in any way.

[endo420]

Wrong again my son. They do have to qualify sometimes thru years of counseling that they are a true ts. More than half of those who seek gender therapy return to living as their physical gender. Out of those who cross dress how many become ts women? Very few take the plunge.

[Phat]

Wrong again my son. They do have to qualify sometimes thru years of counseling that they are a true ts. More than half of those who seek gender therapy return to living as their physical gender. Out of those who cross dress how many become ts women? Very few take the plunge.

so you're saying allanah was not a transexual before she started hormones? You have to "take the plunge" to 'qualify'?

[RangeHova]

Just because a person is denied SRS it doesn’t mean that they are not a TS. It just means that the doctor doesn’t feel that they would be able to handle the change.

But by that logic, what if a team of doctors denied _________ (insert the name of your favorite TS)? Would they be any less attractive to you? Would they become ‘hims’ and ‘he’s’? What if she went back to living as a male for a period of time.

Allanah didn’t become a TS. Danielle didn’t become a TS. Whoever else, didn’t become a TS, they were born TS. They didn’t seek to one day become TS or decide, ‘hey, I’m going to make all of these changes so I can become a TS’ They already were TS, they sought to become women. They would have still been TS even if they never made a change.

No one becomes a TS. It is a gender condition that exist in people from birth. They become the gender that they feel they are. If anyone tells you they became a TS, chances are they really aren’t a TS.

Doctors have shown in many cases that there are actual physical differences in many transsexual’s brains and chromosomes. That goes for those that have never put on a stitch of female clothing in their life as well as the Hung Angels. It isn’t about someone just up and saying ‘hey, I’m a elephant’.

But some of the most passable girls with all the physical changes that you can imagine really and truly are TS. Some of those unattractive men in dresses are more TS than some of the Angels if you really get into their minds.

It has nothing to do with how she looks or what others think about her. It is 100% about who she is as a person.

[AllanahStarrNYC]

anyone who has responded to this thread should REALLY take the time to read this

http://www.tsroadmap.com/mental/categories.html

and

http://www.tsroadmap.com/reality/hbigda-standards.html

"One (ts)woman says, "If people can't handle me, they're the ones losing out on a chance to know a great person." She has a kind of strength I could never muster. I could not stand the kind of stares, comments and laughter she takes on a daily basis. The crap I was getting when I was not regularly accepted as female was starting to affect my self-esteem and ability to have a "normal existence."

Conversely, I know some beautiful and miserable transsexual women.

Ultimately, it's about self-acceptance. It's the first thing I recommend working on in transition.

It's actually the most important thing. We're all transitioning to be happier (or at least less sad). But there are some things which transition will not improve. In fact, transition brings about many new problems.

Transitioning always comes at enormous personal sacrifice. There are wondrous moments of joy and relief, but these come at a high cost and can be accompanied by feelings of inadequacy and longing to be a non-transsexual woman instead of a transsexual woman. But in the end, you need to come to terms with both. You are a woman, and you are a transsexual. Both are things you can be proud of, no matter what anyone else tries to tell you.

Being transsexual woman is never, ever easy. And it's never, ever over. You are going to need self-acceptance to live with the difficulties of being a transsexual woman. If you can achieve that, you're well on your way. "

Something to think about...

[hondarobot]

It's a choice. I know nearly all TS girls hate that theory, but it is.

In my opinion.

There's nothing magical or weird or oddly (most likely) genetic on some level. Some people are born not comfortable being the gender they are, they make changes to the level they are comfortable with.

I've never been totally comfortable living as a guy (as I've blabbed on about this endlessly on this forum), and in my case I don't care. Being uncomfortable, in my case, doesn't bother me. I'm kinda an irritating and generally rebelous person, so I may be a rare exception to the rule.

Like I said, it's not magic. All the fancy examination of the subject isn't going to do a damn thing, because someone will just come along eventually and knock the walls down.

Who fuckin cares?

Be what you are. Being scared of being called "weird" or "gay" or whatever is pointless.

Screw conformity. It's probably the worst mindset a person could ascrible to. It always lead to bad things.

Gender identity is a complicated deal. Figure things out for yourself and deal with it.

Fear is the killer. Fuck fear.

[hondarobot]

Wow, I just read my last post (after pouring a drink) and I realize now that I was raving mad and for the most making no sense.

Time to take a break from HA for awhile. Should probably take a break from the whiskey as well. It sucks being Scott/Irish sometimes.

Hehe, there is a point when a person has to act like an adult.

I suppose.

Later. . .

[ezed]

Wow, I just read my last post (after pouring a drink) and I realize now that I was raving mad and for the most making no sense.

Time to take a break from HA for awhile. Should probably take a break from the whiskey as well. It sucks being Scott/Irish sometimes.

Hehe, there is a point when a person has to act like an adult.

I suppose.

Later. . .

Hey honda, on your hiatus check out "naked cross-dressers playing tennis" It's a "ball" and they've got quite the "racket" going on over there. "It's on the Net"

[RangeHova]

No. You don't understand what a transsexual is. A transsexual isn't a ts in her mind only.

With all due respect have you researched the topic? I have never seen one gender related professional say that transsexuakity is not based in the mind. I have never read anything from a professional in the field thatg said a person is not a transsexual until they alter thier body of even thier appearance.

It seems this definition is something that you pulled out of the air.

From Wikipedia

Transsexualism or transsexuality is a condition in which a transsexual person self-identifies as a member of the gender opposite to the one assigned to them at birth.

Most transsexual men and women desire to establish a permanent social role as a member of the gender with which they identify. Many transsexual people also desire various types of medical alterations (sex reassignment therapy) to their bodies.

It is accepted in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders that expression of desire to be of the opposite sex, or assertion that one is of the sex opposite to the one with which they were identified at birth, constitutes being transsexual. The ICD-10 also states that transsexualism is defined by "the desire to live and be accepted as a member of the opposite sex, usually accompanied by the wish to make his or her body as congruent as possible with the preferred sex through surgery and hormone treatment.

[Ecstatic]

Well said, RangeHova. And thanks for the tsroadmap links, Allanah. That's very valuable info. I also recommend the book Hermaphrodeities by Raven Kaldera for additional insight into the range of transsexuality and transgenderism.

[endo420]

This poll is about cross dressers being called she or not and while some of you would like to believe they are they same thing as transsexuals - they aren't. It's ok to make this a theological debate about what is a transsexual, but that isn't the core of this topic. Of the men who cross dress maybe one out of ten thousand will make the leap to becoming a transsexual. The argument here that some are attempting to make is that many of these cross dressers are women in their own mind and thus equal to a woman who has made the plunge into full blown life changing transsexualism. My counter argument is that they are not the same thing. A cross dresser is not a transsexual. Period. Just because you dressed up in a bra and panties and pranced around your living room does not make you a woman. The worst thing that could happen for transsexuals is a bunch of cross dressing men running around saying 'I'm a transsexual' because it would blur the lines that people (who dont understand transgenders in the first place) have to contemplate. Some of you are attempting now to categorize cross dressers as pre-transsexual cross dressers and non-pre-transsexual cross dressers.

http://myspace-582.vo.llnwd.net/00690/28/50/690650582_l.jpg

http://myspace-884.vo.llnwd.net/00682/48/82/682552884_m.jpg

http://www.uploadfile.info/uploads/81375bee31.jpg

http://profiles.urnotalone.com/posts/user_account/provisional/70299.jpg

I will not argue that some cross dressers are in transition and will become transsexual women but most wont and most are fetishists. Thus it is unfair to catalog CD's and TS's into one big bucket of transgendered and say they are all the same.

[endo420]

Transsexualism or transsexuality is a condition in which a transsexual person self-identifies as a member of the gender opposite to the one assigned to them at birth.

Most transsexual men and women desire to establish a permanent social role as a member of the gender with which they identify. Many transsexual people also desire various types of medical alterations (sex reassignment therapy) to their bodies.
It is accepted in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders that expression of desire to be of the opposite sex, or assertion that one is of the sex opposite to the one with which they were identified at birth, constitutes being transsexual. The ICD-10 also states that transsexualism is defined by "the desire to live and be accepted as a member of the opposite sex, usually accompanied by the wish to make his or her body as congruent as possible with the preferred sex through surgery and hormone treatment


Thank you for this as it helps me prove my point. You bolded a few things that wrapped up my thinking here. The terms 'usually' and 'the desire to live and be accepted'. Usually (almost never) cross dressers will not change their bodies and usually cross dressers will not (almost never) live and will not be accepted as members of the opposite sex.

[MacShreach]

Doctors have shown in many cases that there are actual physical differences in many transsexual’s brains and chromosomes.

Would you provide a reference for that so I can read the research myself, please?

[Ecstatic]

I said it a few days ago and I'll say it again: just because it quacks like a duck doesn't mean it is a duck. The problem here is that some people are merely looking at the superficial evidence (how a person looks who is born male but dresses as a female), which in itself does not distinguish between being transsexual or being a crossdresser. I quite agree that a crossdresser is not a transsexual; however, a third party cannot purely on the basis of observed appearance, conclude whether a given person is a crossdresser or a transsexual who either has not undergone much physical alteration (surgical or hormonal) or simply (and unfortunately for her passing in society at large) is extremely masculine in appearance. Transsexualism is not a matter of appearance, surgery, or any other physical condition in itself; it is a matter of self-identification as the sex opposite that which manifests as one's physical sex prior to any alteration. One doesn't choose to become a transsexual or gradually grow into being a transsexual (though the realization and self-actualization of a transsexual can indeed be a gradual process of discovery and fulfillment).

[MacShreach]

This poll is about cross dressers being called she or not and while some of you would like to believe they are they same thing as transsexuals - they aren't. It's ok to make this a theological debate about what is a transsexual, but that isn't the core of this topic. Of the men who cross dress maybe one out of ten thousand will make the leap to becoming a transsexual. The argument here that some are attempting to make is that many of these cross dressers are women in their own mind and thus equal to a woman who has made the plunge into full blown life changing transsexualism. My counter argument is that they are not the same thing. A cross dresser is not a transsexual. Period. Just because you dressed up in a bra and panties and pranced around your living room does not make you a woman. The worst thing that could happen for transsexuals is a bunch of cross dressing men running around saying 'I'm a transsexual' because it would blur the lines that people (who dont understand transgenders in the first place) have to contemplate. Some of you are attempting now to categorize cross dressers as pre-transsexual cross dressers and non-pre-transsexual cross dressers.

http://myspace-582.vo.llnwd.net/00690/28/50/690650582_l.jpg

http://myspace-884.vo.llnwd.net/00682/48/82/682552884_m.jpg

http://www.uploadfile.info/uploads/81375bee31.jpg

http://profiles.urnotalone.com/posts/user_account/provisional/70299.jpg

I will not argue that some cross dressers are in transition and will become transsexual women but most wont and most are fetishists. Thus it is unfair to catalog CD's and TS's into one big bucket of transgendered and say they are all the same.

Endo, you're dead right. You're absolutely right. On any of the TG fora that are run as a resource for transitioning and transitioned MTF what you're saying would be a dead given. The issue only arises because HA is a porn forum and the men who use it represent a very broad spectrum of sexual (and pornographic) interest from pretty much 100% homosexual to fairly close to heterosexual and all shades in between.

The really homosexual men here don't have a problem calling someone like Kayla Coxx "she," the ones who are more hetero do. It doesn't really matter; here, on this forum, as long as the person has at least some female indicators, even if it's just a bad wig and a stuffed bra, some guys will go for it. The very flimsiest of disguises will satisfy these men's lust for dick which they can pretend to themselves is not actually male. :roll:

The guys who see themselves as straight, or at least, more straight, want more in a tgirl than a plastic wig and a thrift-store bra full of socks. They want real tits, real pretty faces, real soft feminine skin, feminine voices, real curves. But they still like that dick, that's why they-- and that includes me-- are here. Otherwise there are thousands upon thousands of sites showing and talking about genetic women in every imaginable sex act, right now. But they don't have dicks, do they?


Ask youself how often pictures of SRS transexuals are seen on this forum? Pretty damn rarely. Think how often someone posts "I think that girl went post-op," and there is a chorus of outrage. It's as if the men feel they have been cheated-- how dare she get rid of the dick? Because that, of course, is all they're interested in.

How many post-op girls contribute here? Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think there are any. You'd have thought a forum about transexuals would have at least one or two. I know a few post-op women, and most are pretty plain, but a couple are damn attractive, easily pretty enough to cut the mustard here. But these girls wouldn't be caught dead on this board. Why?

Because the TG women that the literature refers to, literature that has been constantly referred to in this thread, are not porn stars, models, escorts or whatever. They're not in the sex business at all. They are schoolteachers, bus drivers, nurses, doctors, lawyers and academics. Some have even made great careers as actresses-- but in mainstream, not porn.

I really, really feel for the girls here having to listen to all the cock-whore shit they hear from the men. At the same time they know, because some of them are very smart cookies indeed, that they are looked down upon by many post-op women. These girls are the masturbatory fantasy of countless men and the providers of sexual favours, for a fee, of rather fewer. Some make a good living out of it, and good for them.

But woe betide them if they do anything to harm those precious dicks. Only a few weeks ago one poster here made a comment about how much girls who did not have "fully functional" members were "letting down" their clients. In another recent exchange a girl stated she was "bottom only," and one of the cockwhores here immediately countered "But why? How big is your dick?" Another girl pointed out that she would rather be feminine and lose the male orgasm than "functional", and a poster here-- a man-- was immediately all over her asking how she could say such things. Such statements are not rare, in fact they are so commonplace it's sickening.

I wonder how these asinine comments make girls taking large doses of hormones in order to be the women they are inside feel. Pretty lousy I guess, but what do the creeps who make them care? They just want a fantasy to masturbate over or a convenient cock to stick up their bums when their wives think they're working late.

(Just for the record I will state now that there are a small number of men here who openly admit that they are not straight, and these guys have my respect. You know who you are.)

My point, Endo, is that right though you most certainly are, you are simply wasting your breath. You want to make a distinction between those women who make a commitment to transition and who live the life, whether as post-op or pre-op, and those who are men through the week and get dressed up girly on Friday night for a spot of hot action. At the same time you, unlike a few other utter bollockheads around here, accept that everyone has to start somewhere, and so you're looking at intent, and taking account of it. These subtle distinctions and concerns are perfectly valid, but this is a porn site, and most of the guys here just want to get on with the wanking.

[AllanahStarrNYC]

i think that was a very GOOD post. kudos to you for having the cojones to speak some truth on certain subjects.

some people who are fans often forget that beyond just being sexual objects- we are also have regular lives that and that our purpose in life is not to only gratify men sexually.


everyone seems to forget that the descison to undergo SRS is a highly personal one that really only concerns one person- the person having SRS.

it does gross me out when people, wether they be ts or male, or whomever, do not respect women who have opted for srs.
it grosses me out when someone says 'don't ever have the surgery' or 'why would you ever want to do that' . 'thanks, i really base my own life to be revolved around what gets you off or how your percieve me sexually!' :roll: .

i definately do think there are a crop of men out there who are just attracted to cds or tvs. and that's ok. there are a crop of men out there who are just bottoms, or versatile, or only like pre-ops. that's great!
what does that make them? i don't know or care.

but don't expect anyone to understand YOU or the fact that you like transsexuals when you can't even think outside the box and realize that not all transsexuals are in the sex business, that not all transsexuals want or like their penises, and that transsexuals are on earth just for you to jerk off.

[GroobySteven]

Great post, Mac.
seanchai

[DamionXXX]

Я Люблю Вас Ulyana, я Люблю только Вас ... теперь и для остальной части моей жизни.

[BeardedOne]

Whoa. :shock:

I only just caught up with this thread, mainly because the last three posts were from Allanah, Seanchai, and Damion. That's like the father, son, and holy...sister? of HA. :lol:

I've had quite a few social/business encounters with gender-different people over the years. TG/TS/IS/CD/TV, the whole freakin' alphabet. How I view them is unimportant, whereas how I =treat= them is. If they present themselves as a particular gender, especially by name (Jane vs. John), that's how I will address them. If there's any doubt, I'll dance around any gender pronouns as best I can.

I'm bisexual, so gender doesn't play so much into how I view an attractive person (And, yah, I think Jamie Cross is hot stuff), but I do have some definitions in my head of what is/isn't/may be a TS/CD/TV etc. I know a TV (He dresses, often fulltime, in skirts, leotards, much jewelry, yet, for the most part, is 'straight'), a couple of CDs (Dressing, on occasion, in skirts, dresses, etc.) and quite a few TG/TS people (Who dress in whatever they damn well feel comfortable in) and I refer to them in whatever gender they present themselves in and/or desire to be refered to as.

It's really just a matter of respect for the individual. If they don't deserve the respect, then I really don't think "Fuckwad" is gender-specific. :wink:

[hondarobot]

i think that was a very GOOD post. kudos to you for having the cojones to speak some truth on certain subjects.

some people who are fans often forget that beyond just being sexual objects- we are also have regular lives that and that our purpose in life is not to only gratify men sexually.


everyone seems to forget that the descison to undergo SRS is a highly personal one that really only concerns one person- the person having SRS.

it does gross me out when people, wether they be ts or male, or whomever, do not respect women who have opted for srs.
it grosses me out when someone says 'don't ever have the surgery' or 'why would you ever want to do that' . 'thanks, i really base my own life to be revolved around what gets you off or how your percieve me sexually!' :roll: .

i definately do think there are a crop of men out there who are just attracted to cds or tvs. and that's ok. there are a crop of men out there who are just bottoms, or versatile, or only like pre-ops. that's great!
what does that make them? i don't know or care.

but don't expect anyone to understand YOU or the fact that you like transsexuals when you can't even think outside the box and realize that not all transsexuals are in the sex business, that not all transsexuals want or like their penises, and that transsexuals are on earth just for you to jerk off.

Well, personally I don't like or dislike transexuals just based on their gender indentity (and I know and interact with lots of TS girls, although not any TS guys I'm aware of).

I like people who are decent people, regardless of gender. I'm not even sure what the hell I am, I just try to be a nice, honest individual.

As far as SRS, I wouldn't insult anyone intentionally on that front. I don't fully understand the procedure or a girls need to have it. I really don't. The lesser need for hormones is legit, but I think those needs can be achieved through other means. If a girl really hates having a penis and etc, have the surgery, but understand the operation and it's effects fully. Talk to girls who have had this done and dont buy into bullshit. If a girl doesn't fully feel like she wants to do this for herself, dont do it.

Just having a vagina doesn't make a person a girl. A vagina is just another body part.

Yeah, I know, "high levels of hormones are dangerous, post SRS would prevent that".

There are other ways to achieve "hormonal" feminity without heavy hormone intake. Do the research.

I think, at the least, SRS could lead to a loss of ability to have an orgasm. At least at the level science has figured things out at this point in time. Not a certainty of orgasm loss happening, but a pretty scary fuckin chance of it.

Nobody want's to never have an orgasm again (take a poll), until it's a sure thing, most TS girls should wait for SRS.

Just my opinion.

I don't care what a girl has between her legs, but I do like a shecock better then a vagina. Vaginas have always bored me. They just kinda sit there, feeling needy, having occasional yeast infections and bleeding occasionaly.

[BeardedOne]

Vaginas have always bored me. They just kinda sit there, feeling needy, having occasional yeast infections and bleeding occasionaly.

:shock: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Oh, gawd, this so describes a number of my past relationships. :lol:

[MacShreach]

<snip> As far as SRS, I wouldn't insult anyone intentionally on that front. I don't fully understand the procedure or a girls need to have it. I really don't. The lesser need for hormones is legit, but I think those needs can be achieved through other means. <snip>

Well, tell you what-- until you do understand the procedure and girls' need to have it, and also the effects of hormones and girls' need to have them, why not keep your powder dry? I'm sure the girls have got plenty to think about without yet more ill-informed opinion based on a guy's own personal sexual preferences.

Why don't you go and read Allanah's excellent post again? After all you did quote it.

[AllanahStarrNYC]

honda

i have personally consulted with the TOP srs surgeon in the US

dr. toby meltzer
and from his patient study- 85% of his patients ARE ORGASMIC AFTER srs
it has a lot to do with a patient being orgasmic prior to srs

im glad your an expert in the field- maybe u should call dr. meltze yourself and give him the details of your reasearch

[roy404]

honda

i have personally consulted with the TOP srs surgeon in the US

dr. toby meltzer
and from his patient study- 85% of his patients ARE ORGASMIC AFTER srs
it has a lot to do with a patient being orgasmic prior to srs

im glad your an expert in the field- maybe u should call dr. meltze yourself and give him the details of your reasearch

I totally agree with Allanah. I have been with far more than my share of TS women-well over 25-and believe me most of them were orgasmic.
The factors of time after surgery and her mental state all enter the picture but if a guy knows what he is doing she will have more fun than him. Remember she can have multiable orgasms one right after the other.
There, as with all things in life, is no set norm. I do know that at least 85-90% of my companions did CUM. In fact a dancer I was with 3 nights ago whom just had her surgery 7 months ago went wild. I am not saying it was me as she said it happens all the time. Even from tight jeans.
Anyway good luck on your next try
Roy in Dallas

[MacShreach]

Anyway good luck on your next try
Roy in Dallas

"Better luck on your next try" might be more apt for honda......"

[hondarobot]

honda

i have personally consulted with the TOP srs surgeon in the US

dr. toby meltzer
and from his patient study- 85% of his patients ARE ORGASMIC AFTER srs
it has a lot to do with a patient being orgasmic prior to srs

im glad your an expert in the field- maybe u should call dr. meltze yourself and give him the details of your reasearch

Oh come on now Allanah, you know what I'm really getting at with most of my hysterical outbursts and absurb proclamations:

I honestly do worry about you girls (one in particular, of course) and don't want anything bad to happen to anyone, for any reason. I know more about TS then most guys here (not all, by any means) but I certainly don't know as much as a surgeon or yourself or any other girl.

I get frustrated, occasionally drunk, and go completely bananas, all over things I have no control over. But that's different now. I'm going to get my own affairs in order once and for all, and leave the TS stuff to girls, surgeons, and others more qualified to comment.

I'll probably go back to posting occasionally about ABC's hit television series LOST (which I read you got drawn into as well, well have to compair notes next season), and staying out of others affairs and assorted drama.

[RangeHova]

Most transsexual men and women desire to establish a permanent social role as a member of the gender with which they identify. Many transsexual people also desire various types of medical alterations (sex reassignment therapy) to their bodies.
It is accepted in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders that expression of desire to be of the opposite sex, or assertion that one is of the sex opposite to the one with which they were identified at birth, constitutes being transsexual. The ICD-10 also states that transsexualism is defined by "the desire to live and be accepted as a member of the opposite sex, usually accompanied by the wish to make his or her body as congruent as possible with the preferred sex through surgery and hormone treatment


Thank you for this as it helps me prove my point. You bolded a few things that wrapped up my thinking here. The terms 'usually' and 'the desire to live and be accepted'. Usually (almost never) cross dressers will not change their bodies and usually cross dressers will not (almost never) live and will not be accepted as members of the opposite sex.

But where in any of that does it say that they don't become TS until they make certain changes. It only says that they desire. It says nothing about acting on those desires as some prerequisite.

Let's ask some of the girls that post on here if they considered themselves TS before they got on hormones or surgery.

Look, I'm not saying that a CD is a TS. I'm just saying that you can't tell who really is a TS based on looks. Like DamoinXXX said, plenty of girls that have had work done and live as females 24/7 aren't even TS. You really get deep into conversation with them and that becomes apparent real fast.

[Jamie Cross]

Tranvestites dress up exclusively for sexual gratification.


And yet, here I am, a transvestite who does not dress up for sexual gratification. For me, it is most certainly about reinforcing my feminine self image. I think of myself as a woman, always, and like to keep myself feminine, always--it makes no difference whether or not I'm getting sexual gratification at the time.

There are always exceptions.

Just something to think about.



xo

Jamie

http://www.hotcross.net -- My personal pay site.
http://www.hotcross.cx -- My personal home page.

[Jamie Cross]

But when did crossdressing and transvestism become two separate things. I have read pieces that made a separation between the two but I have read just as many (probably more) that didn't. Most pros in the field see it as two different labels for the same things.


Looking at the dry semantics, "crossdresser" and "transvestite" do literally mean the very same thing.

Trans = Cross

Vestite = Dresser


These terms are not generally used interchangably within the TG community, though. Here are the distinctions (generally):


Crossdresser: To be considered a crossdresser, one only need have an inclination to wear clothing that identifies with the opposite sex. If a fat, hairy, 50 year old man likes to put on his wife's panties while she's away at work, he's a crossdresser. He probably doesn't care about how feminine he looks, he simply gets a sexual rise from putting on the clothing. He probably doesn't think of himself as being a female at any point. In most cases, his fantasies don't involve other men, as most crossdressers are straight. His fantasies probably center around women and putting on their clothing (in his mind, this gets him closer to women in a special way). By large, this is a man with a fetish for wearing women's clothes.

Transvestite: A transvestite is not going to be satisfied with just putting on a pair of panties. She thinks of herself as being a woman at least part of the time, if not all of the time. She is concerned with her feminine appearance, she truly seeks a feminine identity, not just a sexual rise from dressing up. She will wear coordinated outfits, she'll do her makeup, she'll wear accessories. If possible, she may shave her body smooth. Generally, she'll do whatever she can to make herself more feminine. This may be the whole extent to which some TVs express their feminine side, finding a balance somewhere in between the two polar sexual identities living inside of them. For others, this will not be enough and they will move on to things like hormone therapy and surgical augmentations. So essentially, "transvestism" is a seperate phase from mere crossdressing. This is the next (and for some, final) step in the direction of expressing a feminine identity.

[MacShreach]

Tranvestites dress up exclusively for sexual gratification.


And yet, here I am, a transvestite who does not dress up for sexual gratification. For me, it is most certainly about reinforcing my feminine self image. I think of myself as a woman, always, and like to keep myself feminine, always--it makes no difference whether or not I'm getting sexual gratification at the time.

There are always exceptions.

Just something to think about.



xo

Jamie

http://www.hotcross.net -- My personal pay site.
http://www.hotcross.cx -- My personal home page.

Hi

Hm. You're interesting. I think intent is important and you seem to support that.

I do think that there is a tendency amongst many people to be very dualistic in the way they see things.....He/She, Right/Wrong. Yes/No........but any group of people is actually a biological sample and any biological sample exhibits variation. Variation is not about dualism, one black one white, but about pluralism, many shades of grey.

It's simply not possible to give a simple answer to the question posed in the original survey for a lot of reasons, many of which have been aired in this thread.

Life is not dualistic, it's pluralistic. Each case has different parameters and the decision is not "Is this black or white" but "Is this more black or more white." One is a dualistic response, the other pluralistic. One gives two piles, the other a line from jet black to pure white.

You end up having to use the Zen response "unask the question" because the way it has been put makes a reasonable answer impossible.


BTW, welcome.

[Jamie Cross]

If they want to be identified as a woman, it's she. If they want to be identified as a man, it's he.

How hard is that?

Nonsense. If that's the case every fag in drag is a girl. Time you did some research.

I'd have to agree with Edmund, actually. As you mentioned in an earlier reply to me, MacShreach, intent is important. Or more specifically, I'd say, their sexual psychology.

Does every "fag in drag" intend to be identified as a girl, or more specifically, feel inside as if they are a woman? A few seconds of consideration will yeild an obvious answer. Perhaps you are the one lacking for research here.



Crossdressers and TV's are fetishists who get their kicks by dressing up as women some of the time. They either get a sexual kick out of wearing women's clothes or they use the women's clothes to acheive a sexual end. ... They really are just weird men.

So a transsexual never first experiments with wearing women's clothing? She never started by putting on a bit of makeup to test the water? She just knew from the start that she was a woman and promptly jumped to hormone therapy and surgical augmentation?

All transsexuals were once transvestites. And most transvestites were simply crossdressers at some point before they understood their psychological motivations. They started out putting on panties or skirts or what-have-you, not really understanding their own behavior; usually at a very early age.



Transexuals are people who were born male but can't live as male so become women. They live it full time. They go to incredible lengths to achieve their end, suffer pain, opprobrium and frequently violence for the path they have chosen.

So when will we call this being a "she"? When it's most comfortable for us to do so? When we are satisfied they have suffered enough to earn a distinction that has existed in their own mind almost since the day they were born?



Calling CD's "she" is an insult to all the real TS's. Stop trying to be politically correct and have some principles, Crissake.

Calling anyone a "he" who on the inside knows without doubt that they are a "she" is the only true insult.

If by calling some "fag in drag" a "she", you insult a certain TS, then I'd say that the TS in question has some issue of her own to deal with. She may be insecure with her own feminine self image if she is so easily threatened. If she is a confident TS lady, she will not hold her own suffering like some prize and lord it over others, instead she will sympathise with those unfortunate, ugly looking girls because she will remember being there herself once.

Anyone deserves to be called "she" if that is who they feel they truly are inside and a confident TS lady would extend them that one very small courtesy if asked. No, the confident TS lady won't feel insulted by them, if anything, she may pitty them.

Everything else is a matter of circumstance, tact and ettiquite. Should you call every man in a teddy or thigh highs a "she"? No, of course not. If you see someone grasping desperately for a feminine image, shall we call her a "she", even if she's failing miserably at it? I hope so.

A TS will be happy and proud when the day comes that she is called "she" by everyone without a second thought or glance. This is a very flattering distinction. A distinction that is diminished in no way by extending some others the courtesy of being called "she" simply because we know it is who they are on the inside.

[Tara Emory]

I just love it when TS/shemales like me get called "cross dressers".. when we're not even dressed.. How can we be crossDRESSERS when we're not wearing any clothes at all?

Okay.. I've met quite a few CDs and TV's (which I'm not), and quite a large part of my fan base consist of them, probably becuase of my whole fetish clothing thing I do. And I will refer to them as "she" just out of politeness, but I don't think of them as "she"s really, and I don't think they do too.

I'm a little offended when a guy throws on a pair of panties and it like "I'm a girl" but only a littlle.. usually I sorta ignore them, and I'm waaaaay past the point of responding to any pictures of the headless torso of a guy wearing a garter belt, as if that's something that's going to impress me. Whatever.

I mean, okay sure, It's all about what they want to be identified as- but I've met a lot of CD's that really don't want to be identifies as a "she" anyway, so if a few do, well, maybe they just aspire to be more.. But really, it's not what they want to be identified as, and what they truly are identified as. Maybe that's a allusion to "passing" - but it's like what someone said about their GG friend, if she puts on a sweater and jeans, doesn't make her a "he", and furthermore, she probably would be offended if she was called a "he"

-tara

[scorpion]

Lots of personal opinions. i know that a cross dresser can be verry beautiful and also verry ugly. Its depend how they partner see them...Offcourse.
But take a lock at some girls here in the topic "I like them flat to" Young T-girls or are some of them cross dressers. Take a young man lets say 18-19 years old and do a make up on him and dress him whit stockings sexy lady underwear etc...Et voila.
Personaly I dont care if it is a crossdresser or a real transexuall or maybee a sexy not hairy man. Its the whole personality who counts.
I think if evryone here have a own ideal and wee can diskute this four ever and ever.. so never mind if you like or are crossdresser or shemale or gay or bi or..
this I have hard to belive.. straight.
Never mind wee have al one big intress.
wee love or are girls whit Penis.
Bee proud of it..I am

[MacShreach]

snip

Anyone deserves to be called "she" if that is who they feel they truly are inside <snip>


I couldn't agree more.

I said somewhere back there, simple politeness dictates that if you meet someone presenting as a woman you should call that person "she" as there is never any need to be gratuitously impolite or discourteous.

This whole thread started when there had been a rash of postings of very obviously male people dressed in women's clothing and as such was a pretty light-hearted thread. Let me be clear-- if I meet a man whom I know lives as a man but who wears women's clothing from time to time, I may address that person as "she" when dressed, but I am still going to think of that person as a he.

If I meet a person wearing women's clothes and sporting a five-o-clock shadow and ample quantities of body hair, I will address the person as "she" but that is not what I'm going to be thinking.

I see a difference between someone who feels themselves to be one of the opposite sex to the point that they commit to that, live their lives in that way, perhaps even change their bodies to be more in tune with how they feels themselves to be. These people have made a sacrifice to do this, and I, while I would always try to be polite, do not include Saturday-night dressers in the same category.


It's just the way I am. If I see a beautiful girl, then that's a beautiful girl. So what if she has a cock? If I see an ugly man in a wig with socks for tits, that's an ugly man. I don't go out of my way to insult people but that's the way I see it.

[endo420]

Look - the line must be drawn somewhere. Seriously. So Jamie yes you are a CD and without the wig and makeup nobody would call you maam no matter how much you want them to. Why do you feel that you can put on girls cloths and be called she/her and then just switch back to being called sir the next day so you don't disrupt your personal life? It's like a little shell game - hey look I'm a girl - no I'm not - yes I am - now I'm not - now I am again! The TS girls make a commitment and sacrifice. CD's don't have any form of sacrifice. If that sacrifice offers them the correct gender pronouns and puts you in the same classification with Bob wearing women's underwear so be it. I've seen on myspace where CD's compliment each other in the photos saying she's so pretty just because some man with hairy legs has on stockings and a garter belt. Isnt that dillusional? Also, there is the wig factor. Tara this is something that is really obvious with your look. If you spent less money on fetish cloths you could get some transplants perhaps. This is a question of genuine interest. In terms of this thread, the masses state that cross dressers will receive male pronouns. It was interesting that a coup of CD's came in here and voted the other way when the voting was 80+% in favor of him/he/his. Fishing for votes doesn't change the way the majority of how people think.

[tgirlzoe]

Well, despite her obvious familiarity with the subject matter, I will have to disagree with Jamie Cross.

Guys who dress up and go to conventions or activites or whatever are cross dressers. For example, Tri-Ess (http://www.tri-ess.org/) is a crossdresser's organization which does events such as these. Some even just put on a dress and sit around the house to relax after work. They express femininity because it is an escape for them from their mundane, stress-filled lives.

This is to be distinguished from drag queens and female impersonators who are performance artists (outlandish and realistic, respectably). They express femininity as entertainment.

Transvestites are men who jerk off wearing lingerie. The full psychological diagnosis is "transvestic fetishism" (TVF). They express femininity because it's erotic.

And just in case we weren't clear, transsexuals are males who live as women, usually using female hormones and plastic surgery to achieve a relatively normal (or particularly attractive) physiology. They express femininity because it's who they are.

So where does Jamie fit in? I would say that she is a transvestite because her crossdressing is sexualized. This doesn't apply to transsexual porn stars or escorts because they live as women normally too, not only in a sexual context.

Now should I call Jamie a "she" or a "he"? Well, as with drag queens and the like, etiquette is to use the name and gender they are presenting as currently. What do I think of people as? Well, I'm biased just like everyone else and when I see someone who looks like a beautiful tgirl, I just think "beautiful girl" and when I see someone who looks like a man in a dress, I think "man in a dress" but I'll be nice to them to their face :-)

[MacShreach]

Well, despite her obvious familiarity with the subject matter, I will have to disagree with Jamie Cross.

Guys who dress up and go to conventions or activites or whatever are cross dressers. For example, Tri-Ess (http://www.tri-ess.org/) is a crossdresser's organization which does events such as these. Some even just put on a dress and sit around the house to relax after work. They express femininity because it is an escape for them from their mundane, stress-filled lives.

This is to be distinguished from drag queens and female impersonators who are performance artists (outlandish and realistic, respectably). They express femininity as entertainment.

Transvestites are men who jerk off wearing lingerie. The full psychological diagnosis is "transvestic fetishism" (TVF). They express femininity because it's erotic.

And just in case we weren't clear, transsexuals are males who live as women, usually using female hormones and plastic surgery to achieve a relatively normal (or particularly attractive) physiology. They express femininity because it's who they are.

So where does Jamie fit in? I would say that she is a transvestite because her crossdressing is sexualized. This doesn't apply to transsexual porn stars or escorts because they live as women normally too, not only in a sexual context.

Now should I call Jamie a "she" or a "he"? Well, as with drag queens and the like, etiquette is to use the name and gender they are presenting as currently. What do I think of people as? Well, I'm biased just like everyone else and when I see someone who looks like a beautiful tgirl, I just think "beautiful girl" and when I see someone who looks like a man in a dress, I think "man in a dress" but I'll be nice to them to their face :-)

Seconded. What Edoo said too.

The mones are important at least for me. I see quite a few TS ladies who have cut back hard on the mones and it shows in their skin. I know a lot of them do it because they have clients who want them to have "fully functional" equipment but to ne it's tragic 'cause the next thing you see they're pumping silicone to fight off the inevitable masculinising effects of doing this. The effects of mones are more important than implants, to me at least.

One of the interesting paradoxes of HA along with the other TS boards is that in them there are, along with the girls, two very distinct groups of men: Very strongly masculine str8 guys into anal sex who will shag any gorgeous woman blue and ask no questions about the extra tackle, which they're not going to use anyway, and gay men who want to be fucked. There are a few bi's and versatiles, but most guys who post fall into one of these groups

For the gays, it takes very little to persuade them that the objects of their sexual interest are "female." A plastic wig and some socks does the trick nicely for quite a few of them.

The str8 guys want pretty, clear, smooth skin, nice eyes, rounded feminine bodies with feminine fat dispersal, nice natural hair and some of them (eg me) far prefer small dicks, because they really are into women, not men. Anything that reminds them that the girl is actually male they don't want. (Yet we pretty much all like a dick to be present, so it's not all straightforward.)

Now this in purely rational terms is hard to justify, since in purely biologic terms the possession of a dick kinda clinches it, so some fairly subtle theorising is required to get everything to work again. Girls have to live up to certain standards to be accepted by this group, standards that gay men really don't acare about. And as a result of that CD's get left out in the cold, even though we all agree that there are some CD's who are, when dressed, very hot. But we (in the str8 group) still wouldn't go to bed with 'em.

I think for the gays it's much easier. Some of them are out and so it just doesn't matter, and even the ones still in the closet only need the very flimsiest of disguises and they're happy as larry eating pillows. All they want is to be able to kid themselves they're str8, even though they're fooling no-one else.

[Whitey]

How 'bout...

If someone wants to be called 'She', then call that person by what they request. Hell, if someone wants me to refer to them by 'It', I will.

It's just pronouns, people. :)

[MacShreach]

How 'bout...

If someone wants to be called 'She', then call that person by what they request. Hell, if someone wants me to refer to them by 'It', I will.

It's just pronouns, people. :)

How 'bout you actually read the posts? If you did you would have seen that most people have already said they would call someone presenting as a woman "she." But that's not always what they're thinking.

[MacShreach]

How 'bout...

If someone wants to be called 'She', then call that person by what they request. Hell, if someone wants me to refer to them by 'It', I will.

It's just pronouns, people. :)

How 'bout you actually read the posts? If you did you would have seen that most people have already said they would call someone presenting as a woman "she." But that's not always what they're thinking.

Sorry, I just found out. You're an idiot, so best just disregard that last since reading all those words will doubtless hurt your feeble little mind. Wouldn't want to cause harm to a retard, now would I?

[Whitey]

Calm down, it.

[MacShreach]

Calm down, it.

Gosh, an idiot and he doesn't speak English. Can I have some fun with this one?

[Jamie Cross]

Look - the line must be drawn somewhere. Seriously. So Jamie yes you are a CD and without the wig and makeup nobody would call you maam no matter how much you want them to..

There is more to passing as female than just wearing a wig, makeup and high heels. So much of it is poise. How she walks, how she sits, how she stands up, how she carries herself in general. Voice also plays a huge role. A woman can look as pretty as she'd like, but if she has a voice like James Earl Jones, she isn't going to fool anyone for very long.

I feel I've mastered poise and voice. These two things strongly project who I am regardless of anything else. I can get away with no wig, very little makeup and a fairly "vanilla" outfit. Maybe a sweater, a pair of jeans and some tennis shoes. Other than that, all I'll have to do is my "cleavage". Don't believe me? I'll try really hard to care. :wink:



Why do you feel that you can put on girls cloths and be called she/her and then just switch back to being called sir the next day so you don't disrupt your personal life?

You presume to know things about me which clearly you do not.

I don't "switch back". I live full time as a female. I don't feel that putting on girl's clothes makes me a "she". I feel like I'm a "she" when I'm wearing old sweat pants. I feel like a "she" when I'm in a sexy outfit to go clubbing. I feel like a "she" when I'm taking a shower, fully nude.



It's like a little shell game - hey look I'm a girl - no I'm not - yes I am - now I'm not - now I am again! The TS girls make a commitment and sacrifice. CD's don't have any form of sacrifice.

Now you presume to know things about a whole subculture of people which clearly you do not. I mean, just who the hell are you to say CDs/TVs don't have any form of sacrafice? Have you lived as one? If not, perhaps you lived with and shadowed five or six different CD/TV girls over several weeks, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week as research for a forthcoming video documentry? That must be it!

Not all CD/TV girls are in the closet or dress up only when it is socially convenient for them to do so. This must be your assumption, though. Those who are out in the open make huge sacrifices. Different individuals will sacrifice different things and to different degrees, and this is what you ignore.



I've seen on myspace where CD's compliment each other in the photos saying she's so pretty just because some man with hairy legs has on stockings and a garter belt. Isnt that dillusional?

Is it?

If a child says that a toothless, leprotic, mangy homeless woman is "beautiful", is the child delusional?

What if that woman is the child's mother?

If you also feel it's your place to broadly determine what is and is not "beautiful" for yet more strangers of whom you know absolutely nothing about, I won't stand in your way. You seem to be on a roll, here.

[Jamie Cross]

Well, despite her obvious familiarity with the subject matter, I will have to disagree with Jamie Cross.

Guys who dress up and go to conventions or activites or whatever are cross dressers. For example, Tri-Ess (http://www.tri-ess.org/) is a crossdresser's organization which does events such as these. Some even just put on a dress and sit around the house to relax after work. They express femininity because it is an escape for them from their mundane, stress-filled lives.

No disagreements here. Though just because some crossdressers are men who dress up for conventions to "escape" does not mean that all crossdressers fall into this category.

Before a TS girl becomes fully aware of her gender, she'll likely experiment with women's clothing, as I said before, usually at a very early age. For instance, I began when I was about eight years old. "She" will very likely not understand why she wants to wear women's clothing and not understand the strange sort of identification she feels with the fairer sex. Is "she" a transsexual yet? Is "she" a crossdresser?

I'll let you answer that one.

Let's skip forward a few years. Now she knows that she is truly a woman on the inside and she begins to abhor the male form which she is forced to inhabit. She's become skilled at things like clothing, makeup and feminine poise. She hasn't started hormones yet and hasn't even considered surgery. Why? Maybe she really doesn't understand what options are available to her. Or maybe she or her doctor have decided she's not ready for those things yet. Is she a transsexual yet? Is she a transvestite?

Again, I won't try to answer that one.

I'm just giving you one scenario. There are so many different reasons someone might decide to wear women's clothes, makeup, etc.

It doesn't even begin to make sense to rigidly describe why CDs and TVs do what they do. There are any number of reasons and psychological considerations for an individual. Everyone has a story.



This is to be distinguished from drag queens and female impersonators who are performance artists (outlandish and realistic, respectably). They express femininity as entertainment.

Yet drag queens and female impersonators are also crossdressers and/or transvestites. The broader categories are CD and TV. "Drag queen" and "female impersonator" are yet more unique answers to the question, "Why does this person crossdress"?



Transvestites are men who jerk off wearing lingerie. The full psychological diagnosis is "transvestic fetishism" (TVF). They express femininity because it's erotic.

...

So where does Jamie fit in? I would say that she is a transvestite because her crossdressing is sexualized.

I fail your definition, though. I don't jerk off wearing lingerie any more than a genetic girl or a transsexual. I generally wear lingerie to look and feel sexy in the bedroom. If I masturbate while doing so, it would be entirely incidental.

That is, I don't put on lingerie for the purpose of masturbating.

I am sure there are many more who might be described as "transvestite" who do not fit this rigid definition. Some transvestites wear their feminine garments because of fetishism but not all.



So where does Jamie fit in? I would say that she is a transvestite because her crossdressing is sexualized. This doesn't apply to transsexual porn stars or escorts because they live as women normally too, not only in a sexual context.

I live as a woman outside of my work in adult entertainment. I live as a woman in a normal, non-sexualized context as well.

So am I still a transvestite?

Yes or No? And why?

[signupjustforthis]

Look - the line must be drawn somewhere. Seriously. So Jamie yes you are a CD and without the wig and makeup nobody would call you maam no matter how much you want them to..

There is more to passing as female than just wearing a wig, makeup and high heels. So much of it is poise. How she walks, how she sits, how she stands up, how she carries herself in general. Voice also plays a huge role. A woman can look as pretty as she'd like, but if she has a voice like James Earl Jones, she isn't going to fool anyone for very long.

I feel I've mastered poise and voice. These two things strongly project who I am regardless of anything else. I can get away with no wig, very little makeup and a fairly "vanilla" outfit. Maybe a sweater, a pair of jeans and some tennis shoes. Other than that, all I'll have to do is my "cleavage". Don't believe me? I'll try really hard to care. :wink:



Why do you feel that you can put on girls cloths and be called she/her and then just switch back to being called sir the next day so you don't disrupt your personal life?

You presume to know things about me which clearly you do not.

I don't "switch back". I live full time as a female. I don't feel that putting on girl's clothes makes me a "she". I feel like I'm a "she" when I'm wearing old sweat pants. I feel like a "she" when I'm in a sexy outfit to go clubbing. I feel like a "she" when I'm taking a shower, fully nude.



It's like a little shell game - hey look I'm a girl - no I'm not - yes I am - now I'm not - now I am again! The TS girls make a commitment and sacrifice. CD's don't have any form of sacrifice.

Now you presume to know things about a whole subculture of people which clearly you do not. I mean, just who the hell are you to say CDs/TVs don't have any form of sacrafice? Have you lived as one? If not, perhaps you lived with and shadowed five or six different CD/TV girls over several weeks, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week as research for a forthcoming video documentry? That must be it!

Not all CD/TV girls are in the closet or dress up only when it is socially convenient for them to do so. This must be your assumption, though. Those who are out in the open make huge sacrifices. Different individuals will sacrifice different things and to different degrees, and this is what you ignore.



I've seen on myspace where CD's compliment each other in the photos saying she's so pretty just because some man with hairy legs has on stockings and a garter belt. Isnt that dillusional?

Is it?

If a child says that a toothless, leprotic, mangy homeless woman is "beautiful", is the child delusional?

What if that woman is the child's mother?

If you also feel it's your place to broadly determine what is and is not "beautiful" for yet more strangers of whom you know absolutely nothing about, I won't stand in your way. You seem to be on a roll, here.



This thread made me so mad, I signed up just to support Jamie.

What IS a crossdressers? Plenty of genetic males dress FULL TIME as a female and they DO NOT dress for SEXUAL REASONS and THEY DO NOT IDENTIFY AS MEN.


These people are TRANSGENDERISTS. And don't you tell Jamie or me or anyone else that WE DO NOT MAKE scarifices.

It is perhaps the HARDEST to live AS A FULL TIME FEMALE when you are a PHYSICALLY A MALE. None of you genetic males and self identified males would last ONE DAY dressing as a full time female. So next time you call us a "HE", just think you would never have the BALLS to LIVE like US.

And of course the a-holes here wouldn't consider those people as females because they are just horn dogs who care about the superficial and not to mention the self righteous and narrowed minded transsexuals who feel that they need to feel superior then the "perverted crossdressers" by putting them down as peverts and faggots so they can feel more like a woman by default. :roll:

[vietboy]

OK.. then all these are she... and the only thing that makes a he a he and a she a she is the cloths they wear, a wig, and makeup.


Quite. When a man dresses up in a skirt he is still a man in a skirt. A male who turns himself into a woman, takes hormones, perhaps undergoes surgery but most of all lives as a woman is TS and gets called "she." As in "She earned it."

I think this is a fair assessment.

[TS DANIELLE FOXXX]

There are men who dress up and became women, if just for a short while. Life is tough for some people, alot don't have the means to go through with the transition even though they want to, there is too much at stake.

Live and let live...

If a tranny chaser wants to be called straight...live and let live

[Willie Escalade]

I'll call someone what they want me to call them.

I know some folks who go both ways (sometimes I see them as a guy; other times as a girl). Depending on how they're dressed, I'll call them he or she.

[Justawannabe]

Two points

One is that the thread actually didn't ask anyone whether or not cross dressers were transsexuals (or women for that matter), it asked which pronoun you would use. Most of the people arguing that cross dressers are somehow lesser have said they would call a person 'she' if that's how they presented themselves. My question would be you said flat out you would call them 'she' so did you vote that way?

Second point has been made over and over but still not addressed by the anti-cross dresser side. If a person can't take the hormones or surgeries, for medical, financial or other reasons, are they not still a transsexual if they live their lives as the opposite sex? Why are you attaching a level of medical and financial success to who a person is gender wise?

Sean

[vietboy]

Second point has been made over and over but still not addressed by the anti-cross dresser side. If a person can't take the hormones or surgeries, for medical, financial or other reasons, are they not still a transsexual if they live their lives as the opposite sex? Why are you attaching a level of medical and financial success to who a person is gender wise?

A person does not always need hormones or surgery to live as a member of the opposite sex. Indeed, it is living as the sex a person believes him or herself to be that defines the transsexual. How aggressively this goal is pursued is a measure of the intensity of the person's feelings. A person who pleads poverty has no excuse because there are lots of people who have managed to transition in spite of poverty. And there are very few medical conditions that prevent a person from taking at least some measure that would facilitate the development of female sexual characteristics.

[KOH765]

unless they get that final cut they dont deserve to be called a she

[Dinand]

Wearing a dress and putting on a wig doesn't make a guy a girl.

[BrendaQG]

I will vote yes call em she. Don't judge it by how a person looks because their are some natal females who from certain perspectives look like "men in dresses".

I mean heck. More than one person has had to ask if my sister was TG or GG. So I suppose there are people here who would see my sister and call her male..... until she has FFS, and get's implants? LOL

What I'm saying is that you never know. Judging a persons femaleness by looks can be deceiving. Their are some pure CD DQ's who live as men but when dressed look drop dead gorgeous, such men look pretty darn femme without the clothes..... should they be she while a post op who does not pass should be he?

As I am sure it has been said just take a persons presentation at face value. So call Hulk Hogn in a dress she, call Julie Andrews in a suit he.

[LTR_Seeker]

Kelly, Heavenly Hara Juliana & the many other angels here who live the female life 100 percent not a cd who just dresses for fantasy behind closed doors

[BrendaQG]

Ahh but LTR. Take me for example. I live 100% of the time as a female. I know by the shock when I tell that I pass at least 99% of that time, even on the beach, even with my hairline. Yet due basically to that flaw and my lack of surgical interventions there are some here who would call me a cross dresser (I think that is what colored some people's perceptions of my sister.)

It's kind of like I said to my doctor when she looked at my chest and suggested I do breast exams. "In the world of transsexuals we don't think of tit's as being real until they are fake."

It's like a girl is not transsexual until she has had operation XY or Z.

Earlier in this thread cited TSRoadmap.com for defining who is TS.... Well the person who made that website and I have had long and involved, civil discussions on this matter. In brief to her and many who think like her ALL or the HHA's who are not post op are still he. Gag on that girls.

Consider the following:

What About Non-op Transsexuals? A No-op Notion Print E-mail
TS-Si Op-Ed Pages - Looking Glass
Sharon Gaughan
Saturday, 19 August 2006 (http://ts-si.org/content/view/1409/993/)

My reply to her is in the comments. I decided to take her exact logic and change some of the nouns... like suppose we were talking about passing and sexual orientation to decide who is she or he....or to separate transsexuals into types. `:-| I played a bit of devils advocate hoping she would see the folly in what she said. Her reply to me warranted it's own article.

The Incredible Earnestness Of Being Non-Op Print E-mail
TS-Si Op-Ed Pages - Global Warning
Lisa Jain Thompson
Friday, 24 August 2007 (http://ts-si.org/content/view/2467/995/)

Note this is from a organization "TS-SI" that says of it self.
"Dedicated to the acceptance, medical treatment, & legal protection of individuals in the process of correcting the misalignment of their anatomical sex, & supporting their transition into society."

But only if you are post SRS or so primed for SRS that if you couldn't afford it you would do it yourself. To them only SRS warrants being called she.

[Justawannabe]

Really crappy people in those links...

Not wanting to lose sensation, or risk losing it, could easily prevent someone from seeking the op. They could do hormones and laser but be afraid of becoming sexually numb (and I have someone in my life to who that happened, surgery goes bad for a not insignificant number of people), and everyone here would call them a him...

Here I guess is my issue... by defining TS by the operation we've essentially said that no transsexuals existed prior to the op, and that the REAL mental issue is an obsessive compulsion to get the op at any cost to the individual, not the desire to live and be seen as the opposite gender assigned at birth.

No wonder they want TS to be in the mental health realm. No wonder they think aversion therapy is the first treatment, cure the obsession and save a person from their dramatic obsession's long term risks and consequences.

By the logic I'm seeing here if a man were to lose his genitalia in a bad motorcycle accident and put on a wig and dress that would warrant a she... but not someone living full time as a woman with smooth skin, great clothes and a husband (in Cali).

Just wow... (maybe I understand why so much about the cock on this board now... the girls hate the guys for wanting one because they define themselves by whether they have one or want to keep one... and the guys define their partners by one. And here I thought it was about presentation and inner desires...)

Sean

[slinky]

I was just having this discussion with someone this week:
1) When dressed, you obviously address her as "she",
2) When not dressed, "he" is easy,
3) But what do you do when the person isn't present? they aren't there, so how do you "identify"?

[Felicia Katt]

Kelly, Heavenly Hara Juliana & the many other angels here who live the female life 100 percent not a cd who just dresses for fantasy behind closed doors
If you are behind closed doors with some fantasy dresser, you should probably call her baby LOL

meow

FK