Detroit is bankrupt.

[Ben in LA]

Lots of opinions and finger-pointing about this. Since I work nights and am about to go to bed, I'll check replies (if there are any) later on.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/07/18/detroit-prepares-bankruptcy-filing-friday/2552819/

Discuss. And I already know the "Democratic-controlled" and "Unions-caused-this" blame will be thrown around. Go Red Wings.

[eccentricBlue]

What's to discuss? You and I cannot spend money we don't have so why does the gov't do it like its ok? If a company consistently loses revenue and continues to increase union benefits, than the resulting outcome should come as no surprise to anyone. This whole "too big to fail" nonsense is a sham and will come to a head once the discussion is if the US gov't is too big to fail. The only difference will be that there is nobody around to bail them out.

Out of control spending and corruption has its consequences.
On a side note, I fully believe that the FED should be audited & investigated.

[trish]

A good company will pass the costs of producing a quality product on to consumers willing to pay for it (a bad company will skimp on materials and produce an inferior product). In some democratic governments (ours) people demand quality products (superior military, police protection, pothole free highways, access to medical care etc....half the tea party is on disability!) but refuse to pay for them. Collect some fucking revenue.

[eccentricBlue]

While the first half of your response is spot on, the second half only demands higher taxes. In the case of the Detroit automakers, they consistently lost money year after year while already producing an inferior product. Do you expect people to pay more for a domestic chevy Malibu when they could buy a comparable imported Honda civic for less? I remember hearing a staggering statistic that something like $4k+ per GM vehicle goes directly towards pensions. Add in all the other union negotiated costs and your vehicle's origional sticker has largely ballooned.

But back on subject, our ever intrusive & inept government has proven over and over again how good they are at fucking up a wet dream. If paying more into the system by way of higher taxes is your solution than your living in a dream world. Politicians constantly sell us utopia while delivering us places like Detroit.

If you want to backhand the Tea Party, please do not forget about the much larger population of those suckling from the teet of the government. One sided slander only lessens the credibility of your position.

[trish]

If you want to backhand the Tea Party...Why would I want to when I already did? I swear the more conservative a person is the more likely they're shout something like, "GET YOUR GOVN'T MITS OFF MY MEDICARE," (true tea-bagger signage).

[eccentricBlue]

What does anything you just said have to do with my previous post?

[Ben]

Lots of opinions and finger-pointing about this. Since I work nights and am about to go to bed, I'll check replies (if there are any) later on.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/07/18/detroit-prepares-bankruptcy-filing-friday/2552819/

Discuss. And I already know the "Democratic-controlled" and "Unions-caused-this" blame will be thrown around. Go Red Wings.

America is the richest nation on the planet. This shouldn't happen.
One of the crucial things we have to do is end the offshoring of jobs. We need to control capital. And that means ending these harmful free -- or corporate -- trade agreements. I mean, I'm an old-fashioned conservative in that respect. I think real conservatives would oppose these corporate agreements. Conservatives used to rail against corporate power. Well, that was over a century ago.
I support raising taxes on, well, the super-rich and corporations. And, of course, capital controls.
If governments don't have revenue they don't have STREET LIGHTS and public parks.
And look at Camden, NJ. And laying off police officers. I mean, this is the richest nation on the planet.
http://globalgrind.com/news/camden-police-department-set-lay-270-officers-details
Moving capital abroad will continue to cause undue harm.
And here Noam Chomsky articulates the harmful aspects of neoliberalism:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1uSV3uOGdk

[95racer]

Should have happened years ago. Detroit blames everyone but themselves. Now the fine people of Detroit don't want live in the mess that they have created so they're moving out into the 'burbs and doing their best to bring those cities down also.

[flabbybody]

When you buy a bond issued by a city it promises to collect property taxes from its citizens and pay you back with interest at a future date. When this promise is broken the explanations become irrelevant. The financial mechanism used to fund essential services of life has been compromised. Who would lend money to a deadbeat? In New York we expect police to come quickly and trains to run, but who pays for that if people stop buying our bonds ?

[robertlouis]

And when the population drops by more than 50% but the city area is unchanged, as happened to Detroit, the authorities can't collect the taxes necessary to sustain the services so they start borrowing.

Difficult to see any way out of that. Detroit is one of the US cities that I know well and I feel sorry for the people at local level who've been doing their level best to improve things against impossible odds.

[broncofan]

Should have happened years ago. Detroit blames everyone but themselves. Now the fine people of Detroit don't want live in the mess that they have created so they're moving out into the 'burbs and doing their best to bring those cities down also.
Should they be forced to stay if they want to move? Are you sure it wasn't financial mismanagement or that the population shrunk too quickly and took the tax base with it? People from Detroit have every right to live in suburbs if they so choose or anywhere else.

[Ben in LA]

Why does the little guy always have to take a pay cut while the higher ups keep getting raises?

This flow chart puts this into perspective.

[95racer]

Should they be forced to stay if they want to move? Are you sure it wasn't financial mismanagement or that the population shrunk too quickly and took the tax base with it? People from Detroit have every right to live in suburbs if they so choose or anywhere else.


Section 8 housing, bridge cards, utilities paid is the way most of them are moving out. I know, it's happening all around me. Most of the people in these homes are able bodied and do nothing. A right, yes. Compliments of those who work and pay taxes (which went up again this year). Meanwhile, real estate values get further diluted, quality of the neighborhood deteriorates (ex. homes not maintained, litter, rif-raff) and crime goes up.

Much of the same issue in Detroit. A big reason the tax base is low because many don't work and don't pay taxes. Then they bitch about the lack of city services and school system. Also, if you live and/ or work in Detroit you get to pay an additional 'Detroit' tax. Many workers won't work in Detroit because of it and I don't blame them. Why flush more money down the toilet.

[african1]

A good company will pass the costs of producing a quality product on to consumers willing to pay for it (a bad company will skimp on materials and produce an inferior product). In some democratic governments (ours) people demand quality products (superior military, police protection, pothole free highways, access to medical care etc....half the tea party is on disability!) but refuse to pay for them. Collect some fucking revenue.

By democratic governments I am assuming you are talking about local governments led by Democrats. :D

[african1]

When you buy a bond issued by a city it promises to collect property taxes from its citizens and pay you back with interest at a future date. When this promise is broken the explanations become irrelevant. The financial mechanism used to fund essential services of life has been compromised. Who would lend money to a deadbeat? In New York we expect police to come quickly and trains to run, but who pays for that if people stop buying our bonds ?

Good retort, but you guys in NYC pay Police to act as Big Brother, watch your every move, and stop to frisk your asses at any officer's whim.
On top of it your Supreme Mayor tells you what you can and cannot eat and drink. It's fucking pathetic bro.

[african1]

Discuss. And I already know the "Democratic-controlled" and "Unions-caused-this" blame will be thrown around. Go Red Wings.

It's funny you answered your own question. :lol:

[trish]

The subject of the sentence is "people." I was thinking of tea-bagger idiots who make signs that say, "GET YOUR GOVN'T MITS OFF MY MEDICARE." See what happens when you ASSume...

[trish]

(Detroit's troubles) couldn't have had anything to do the atrocious business practices of the Detroit based auto companies.

[african1]

(Detroit's troubles) couldn't have had anything to do the atrocious business practices of the Detroit based auto companies.

True! GM and Ford started cheating on their cars production back in the 1990's, thinking customer needed them, in the meantime and the Japanese and the Germans were all about quality and long term relationships. Result: they lost people's trust and their business tanked and with it Detroit drowned.

[african1]

...See what happens when you ASSume...

That "A$$ume" accusation back at ya. notice the smiley at the end of my comment.

[trish]

No assumptions; I saw the smiley...it still wasn't funny.

[african1]

No assumptions; I saw the smiley...it still wasn't funny.

It's the truth though..

[african1]

No assumptions; I saw the smiley...it still wasn't funny.

BTW a quick compliment: I like your artwork in "Captures".

[broncofan]

BTW a quick compliment: I like your artwork in "Captures".
Lol You think one compliment and you've won her favor. You should dedicate a thread to her.:)

[african1]

Lol You think one compliment and you've won her favor. You should dedicate a thread to her.:)

enlighten me, why do I need to earn her favor? :)

[95racer]

Detroit was also one of LBJ's 'Model Cities'. LOL!

[broncofan]

enlighten me, why do I need to earn her favor? :)
Not earn favor but curry favor. Earning takes more than gratuitous compliments.

Not that you need to but maybe I thought you were trying to:).

[broncofan]

Detroit was also one of LBJ's 'Model Cities'. LOL!
Yes! Other people's misfortune. That's a kneeslapper. Apparently a city's bankruptcy validates you and your views.

[95racer]

A is A, things are what they are. Years of liberal, democratic politics. Keep voting in the same POS Politicians. Quite frankly, if they were black they were in (ex Coleman & Kwame, Connors). How do you like your city now? I have no sympathy.

[broncofan]

Not only don't you have sympathy but you also seem to have disdain for the people in Detroit and glee that their city is bankrupt. This is the type of hatefulness that has become a hallmark of the GOP and people of your ilk, who think that everyone who has a tough time deserves it.

Not only have you not carried your burden of showing that every individual who has struggled brought it upon themselves, you don't even indicate that GOP policies would have alleviated it in any way. I've also noticed that your posts seem to contain every possible trope about African-Americans that an apparently race neutral thread about a city could have. You could have been a GOP strategist during the welfare reform era, painting pictures of lazy welfare moms, stirring up fear of certain elements fleeing to the suburbs, all the while flashing a sinister grin born of pure schadenfreude.

[broncofan]

Good retort, but you guys in NYC pay Police to act as Big Brother, watch your every move, and stop to frisk your asses at any officer's whim.
On top of it your Supreme Mayor tells you what you can and cannot eat and drink. It's fucking pathetic bro.
Have you ever been to New York? Whatever city you are from I would much rather live in New York than. Why? Because it's probably the coolest city I've ever lived in.

That said, I am not making fun of your appearance when I say this. But you look seriously startled in that avatar picture. Was a mountain lion taking the photograph or something?

[african1]

Not earn favor but curry favor. Earning takes more than gratuitous compliments.

Not that you need to but maybe I thought you were trying to:).

Thanks for clearing that up. I never flatter people. However I see no harm in complementing an intellectual adversary when they do good work or win an argument. In this case I was speaking about the first instance.

[Ben]

Detroit is the symptom of free trade! - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJWHB1FGUn4)

[95racer]

The sub-title of this thread was about the Woodward cruise. It will be just fine. It's held north of Detroit.

[Ben in LA]

The sub-title of this thread was about the Woodward cruise. It will be just fine. It's held north of Detroit.

Good. One of these days I want to head to one and see some Royal Bobcats in their element.

Hey Tesla, build a factory in Detroit!

[fred41]

They do maintain a damn fine hockey team though..
...plus they got RoboCop..


To you Detroit:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VfiV77Q_8zk

[Ben]

Detroit and Goldman Sachs: Makers and Takers...

http://www.cepr.net/index.php/blogs/cepr-blog/detroit-and-goldman-sachs-makers-and-takers

[joeninety]

They do maintain a damn fine hockey team though..
...plus they got RoboCop..


To you Detroit:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VfiV77Q_8zk

Rofl fuck yeah I forgot about robocop, maybe its his maintenance and upkeep that's bankrupted motor city

[Ben]

Detroit Red Wings Get New $400 Million Taxpayer-Financed Stadium While the City Goes Bankrupt:

http://libertycalling.net/home/categories/hot-discussion/item/2175-detroit-red-wings-get-new-400-million-taxpayer-financed-stadium-while-the-city-goes-bankrupt

[Ben in LA]

Detroit Red Wings Get New $400 Million Taxpayer-Financed Stadium While the City Goes Bankrupt:

http://libertycalling.net/home/categories/hot-discussion/item/2175-detroit-red-wings-get-new-400-million-taxpayer-financed-stadium-while-the-city-goes-bankrupt

As soon as fred41 mentioned Hockeytown, this story popped into my head. This would never fly in LA. How do I know? We still don't have an NFL team...and it's going on TWENTY YEARS.

[Ben]

Quoting from the first paragraph of an article that appeared in 1999:
'Jesse Ventura, Governor of Minnesota, took a position that is extremely rare in state government. He said that neither the state nor the city nor any other unit of government should spend any money on funding yet another municipal ballpark or providing a taxpayer subsidy to professional ball teams and their media flunkies. "The taxpayers shouldn't have to foot the bill for new stadiums," said Ventura.'

And: the rest of the article -- :)
http://mises.org/freemarket_detail.aspx?control=270

[95racer]

Quoting from the first paragraph of an article that appeared in 1999:
'Jesse Ventura, Governor of Minnesota, took a position that is extremely rare in state government. He said that neither the state nor the city nor any other unit of government should spend any money on funding yet another municipal ballpark or providing a taxpayer subsidy to professional ball teams and their media flunkies. "The taxpayers shouldn't have to foot the bill for new stadiums," said Ventura.'

And: the rest of the article -- :)
http://mises.org/freemarket_detail.aspx?control=270


Agreed.

[Ben]

Michigan Leads Nation in Massive Corporate Tax Breaks (The Untold Story of Detroit's Decline) - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbmvLCkyqzQ)

[Ben in LA]

This was sent to me from a friend...who happens to be a conservative.

http://www.eclectablog.com/2013/08/what-conservatives-talk-about-when-they-talk-about-detroit.html#.Uf0GHDzxbqs.twitter

[trish]

http://nyti.ms/17qIKoi

[ed_jaxon]

I see some similarities in what is happening in Chicago today and what happened in Detroit a number of years ago.

The first purely surface observation I noticed was the nickname "Murder Capital of the US". Currently Chicago is under siege, beset with shootings every day. On the block where I work, three people have been gunned down in the past year.

Back in the 80's, Detroit had that same nick and was dealing with the same issues.

People don't just sit idly by and allow that shit to consume their lives, no if they can, they move. Generally if you can move that means you have the wherewithal to marshall your resources and get out of a bad situation. What this does is cream the more upwardly mobile members of a community out of a neighborhood leaving behind a less affluent base. Home owners are replaced with renters and absentee landlords which further erodes the fabric of the community.

Likewise business owners flee as well leaving the businesses in the hands of outsiders. Family occupy the better jobs leaving the lesser paying positions to those still in the community.

Chicago in the 40's and 50's had a thriving black business community. Today those communities are home to liquor stores and churches moreso than locally owned grocery stores and hardware stores. If there is business in the community it is either foreign owned or a chain. A dollar circulates once through the community then leaves to enrich another community.

So with the collapse of business the underground economy flourishes. It benefits a states prison industrial complex if there is a ready and steady supply of inmates to occupy jail cells so its in the "societies" best interest to criminalize minor behaviors to fill the jails. Weed? Yeah we have plenty of inmates in for that. Beyond that is that smaller criminal acts lead to larger criminal acts. One gets used to being a part of the system, a system that fights to keep you there. Each inmate in the prisons is worth between 75 and 100 thousand paid for their care and housing. That money goes to pay the salaries of those who work there and that money generally stays in that community far away from the streets of Chicago.

As people flee the city the tax base erodes which means government has to make up that money somehow so they resort to regressive fees and fines that make the city even less liveable. Ridiculous fines for mundane transgressions such as meters expiring and redlight cameras and the boot. These things lead even more to abandon the city for better living conditions leading to even more ridiculous fines. Politicians are loathe to raise property taxes outright as that is generally the kiss of death politically. But realistically there are raising taxes just on the working poor who can least afford it.

I live in a nice neighborhood near the lake but I am seriously considering moving to another state and leaving this bullshit behind.

The pension mess we are dealing with is going to be painful and unfair to fix and will bring more and more fines which will run your tax base away which will create violent underground economies which will further decimate the city.

I saw it happen with Gary, now Detroit and soon Chicago if something does not change. Just last week the Chicago credit rating was downgraded by and unprecedented three levels.

Last one out turn off the lights please.

Just one man's opinion.

[Stavros]

Ed I think you offer a succinct version of the 'negative cycle' aspect of urban decline which does appear to be evident in the case of Detroit -but there is another thesis which tries to explain how Boston and New York, which both experienced the 'negative cycle' in the 1970s (New York City almost filed for bankruptcy in 1975), managed to re-invigorate their economies so that they have both experienced growth instead of decline since then.
The argument, in the link below is supported by some sophisticated statistics, but in essence argues that cities that have successfully negotiated their way into the innovation/ideas economy -which has global reach and global profit potential- have been able to take advantage of transport and communications transformations that by substantially reducing unit costs, undermine the location of manufacturing industry but benefit communications based industries in those same urban areas -which is why New York has survived manufacturing decline whereas this decline has undermined the prosperity of both Detroit and Cleveland. If you are asked to name the centres of ideas and innovation in the USA, my guess is that New York and San Francisco (adjacent to Silicon Valley) would top the list. Other cities in the mix would be Seattle, Chicago, Boston and Austin, possibly Houston (because of the oil industry). The high taxes and rents and petty crime causing 'white flight' were a problem for New York, Boston and San Francisco in the 1970s, yet they came through it by tapping into the ideas revolution which is linked to sectors such as finance and information technology which have productive outcomes with huge profit margins; this reverses the negative cycle -but it does means that formerly run-down inner cities become desirable residences so that the dilapidated, drug-addled lower East Side of Manhattan is now a much sought-after residential neighbourhood as new money can afford to buy up large chunks of real estate and turn it into lucrative housing or office space. And it changes the character of cities as the urban poor are moved to the margins -effectively thrown out of Manhattan by Mayor Giuliani, or imprisoned- which means the professional classes don't mix with what once was an economically diverse population in their own neighbourhood, and housing becomes progressively out of reach to first time buyers with new purchasers most likely to be corporations or overseas millionaires (as is the case in parts of London).
On this basis, it looks bleak for Detroit, unless Detroit can find a way to re-invent itself as a city -but Chicago ought to survive, though it doesn't mean the character of the city will survive as it has been known in the past. This shift away from manufacturing also benefits those -mostly graduates- who can slot into the knowledge economy, leaving the rest to drive buses and taxis, make coffee, and sweep the streets.
There is a similar problem in India where Mumbai, Delhi and Bangalore have benefited from economic growth, but not Calcutta. And so on all over the world.
http://www.nber.org/papers/w13710.pdf?new_window=1

[flabbybody]

What you describe is the natural consequence of transformation that turns undesirable run down neighborhoods into sought after expensive ones.... that's what a long term recovery is all about. You can't have it both ways stavros. Mayor Giuliani did not "throw out" the urban poor from the lower east side. We have vast areas of the Bronx and Queens that are totally livable and serviced by a highly efficient , low cost transportation system.

What strangles NYC is an antiquated red tape mess of apartment safety codes and well-meaning but looney rent controls that stifle new construction for all but the super wealthy. That's the real reason why it's nearly impossible to find a nice apt for a decent price.

[Stavros]

What you describe is the natural consequence of transformation that turns undesirable run down neighborhoods into sought after expensive ones.... that's what a long term recovery is all about. You can't have it both ways stavros. Mayor Giuliani did not "throw out" the urban poor from the lower east side. We have vast areas of the Bronx and Queens that are totally livable and serviced by a highly efficient , low cost transportation system.

What strangles NYC is an antiquated red tape mess of apartment safety codes and well-meaning but looney rent controls that stifle new construction for all but the super wealthy. That's the real reason why it's nearly impossible to find a nice apt for a decent price.

You are obviously right in the details which I am not familiar with; but is it not also the case that the NYC -perhaps Manhattan specifically?- has been able to use the knowledge economy to expand its profitability in international business, and that this is part of source of the vast sums of money that have flowed into these desirable urban areas to inflate property prices and change the identity of neighbourhoods? I think the argument is that specific local issues aside -and 'New York' has been a desirable place to be for most of the last 100 years, a cache other American cities have lacked (along with most English cities other than London)- there is a common aspect to globalisation that has affected cities, whether they have succeeded or failed to take advantage of economic and social trends. Is it the case that it was possible for the urban poor of Manhattan to move to the other Boroughs because of the low cost transportation system? Giuliani gets the stick both ways, haven't been able to get a definitive account of that period in New York's history.

[bluesoul]

Detroit Red Wings Get New $400 Million Taxpayer-Financed Stadium While the City Goes Bankrupt:

http://libertycalling.net/home/categories/hot-discussion/item/2175-detroit-red-wings-get-new-400-million-taxpayer-financed-stadium-while-the-city-goes-bankrupt

interesting priorities

[95racer]

.........

[Ben in LA]

http://inthesetimes.com/article/15433/decades_of_discrimination_and_corporate_chaos/

No jobs, no tax base...regardless of party.