Scientist find a gene in mtf transsexuals that says we were born this way!

[MrsKellyPierce]

Great article the picture they used is horrible! We are not the rocky horror picture show!

http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2008/10/27/2401941.htm

[trish]

I didn't need a team of scientists to tell me that, but it's nice to have their confirmation. Thanks for the link Kelly.

[Ms.Stepford]

That's cool. Maybe this will lead to people shutting up about lifestyle choice.

At the same time I've always been one to say I don't care why. I just am.

Fuck it though. I would love to be scientifically validated, so I could be all "STFU AND GO TO SCHOOL YOU IGNORANT FUCK!"

[Toadily]

Not to kissable

http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/200810/r306913_1342450.jpg

[Rabbiteyes]

At the same time I've always been one to say I don't care why. I just am.


I kind of prefer to think I chose this.... it is far more empowering to say "I'm a guy who CHOSE to embrace femininity" instead of "I'm a victim of my genes" (since many would spin it in the realm of a handicap or other disadvantage).

The thing is though, the truth lies somewhere in the middle. While the genes may make us feel a certain way, we still definitely chose to embrace it or not and transition.

[Ms.Stepford]

That sounds about right. I could have chose to live a miserable life, if I really wanted to live as a pretty man with a secret I'd never tell.

[my my my!]

Interesting find, and gives much insight to the genetics of a transsexual.

However, the thought I have always had is..

Let's say, If scientists or a study group were able to KNOW a future transsexual MtF at birth, and put this "male" into an all male environment with no references to female clothing, mannerisms and gender roles.
Would "he" still want to be female? Even if he doesn't know what a female is
Would he just take a "submissive" role without desiring to be a female? Of course it's all speculation.
How would you put together such a group after all?
But the question lingers, how much of transsexuality comes from the fact that females have a distinct visual and behavioral identity from males?



It's genetics AND environmental influence IMO.

[danthepoetman]

You ladies are all absolutely right. Transsexalism IS NOT simply a psychological condition. It has been established for a good while now.
These reaserches are very promising! But they're probably only one more of the 30 or 40 different conditions which can interviene during fetal developement to create a feminized brain in an individual with a xy sexual genotype.
If these reaserches can at last wake some doubters up, thank "God"! at last! But my hunch is that there is still a certain number of socially accepted patterns in ideas that will set it aside as being only theories, and namely this idea still entertained with so much force that humans are tabula rasa and that culture only defines an individual.

The best excerpt of the article, imo:
'More feminised brain'
The researchers suggest reduced androgen and androgen signalling contributes to the female gender identity of male to female transsexuals.

"It is possible that a decrease in testosterone levels in the brain during development might result in incomplete masculinisation of the brain in male to female transsexuals, resulting in a more feminised brain and a female gender identity," they say.

People develop an inner sense of being male or female from an early age but transsexuals identify with a physical sex opposite to their biological sex.

Some theories suggest causes include psychosocial factors including dysfunctional family dynamics and traumatic childhood experiences.

But research is increasingly implicating biological factors including family history and genetics.

"There is a social stigma that transsexualism is simply a lifestyle choice, however our findings support a biological basis of how gender identity develops," Harley says.

[danthepoetman]

I kind of prefer to think I chose this.... it is far more empowering to say "I'm a guy who CHOSE to embrace femininity" instead of "I'm a victim of my genes" (since many would spin it in the realm of a handicap or other disadvantage).
The thing is though, the truth lies somewhere in the middle. While the genes may make us feel a certain way, we still definitely chose to embrace it or not and transition.
There's probably some choices that we make, I'm sure, Rabbiteyes. But the extent to which we make such choices is in fact so reduced. For instance, what do you choose of your sexual orientation? Very very little...
Personaly, I think we humans are completely full of shit: we exagerate our independance and capacities to make ourselves believe that we're close to gods. But we're essentially animals, as evolutive sciences have well shown...

[MrsKellyPierce]

Interesting find, and gives much insight to the genetics of a transsexual.

However, the thought I have always had is..

Let's say, If scientists or a study group were able to KNOW a future transsexual MtF at birth, and put this "male" into an all male environment with no references to female clothing, mannerisms and gender roles.
Would "he" still want to be female? Even if he doesn't know what a female is
Would he just take a "submissive" role without desiring to be a female? Of course it's all speculation.
How would you put together such a group after all?
But the question lingers, how much of transsexuality comes from the fact that females have a distinct visual and behavioral identity from males?



It's genetics AND environmental influence IMO.
My mother says I was screaming for pink/barbies and playing in her shoes at age 2 and whenever my dad brought boy stuff home I'd pout and scream and throw it.

All my sisters and brothers were out of the house by the time I was born..

An only child so I don't think it's learned

My mom said I knew from the get go that I was a female.

That's why she was just waiting for the day for me to say I can't live this lie anymore.

[Rabbiteyes]

Personaly, I think we humans are completely full of shit: we exagerate our independance and capacities to make ourselves believe that we're close to gods. But we're essentially animals, as evolutive sciences have well shown...

That is if you look at everyone as the same. But we are very different in our abilities to control our animal instincts.

For example, on average humans are horribly stupid when it comes to food. Growing obesity sweeping entire countries... or extreme cases of humans who simply are unable to stop eating and balloon up to 500+ pounds.

But, there are also some humans capable of completely mastering their relationship with food. They guide what they eat (despite their animal instincts for fat and sugar) towards healthy and meticulously crafted meal plans to maximize their bodies (body builders).

Or, let's talk about sex. In general humans are again rather basic here. They follow what their crotch tells them...they hook up with multiple people, they engage in risky behaviour, they spend a great deal of time being controlled by their animal instincts to reproduce (and, again, some become such extremes that they spiral out of control). But, again, some of us are able to completely suppress that animal instinct and go without sex completely (it becoming the new norm for them, asexual people).

It is the same with a range of qualities. Is sexual attraction one? Is gender another? For some people, I would imagine so...I would imagine they can chose what to be and who to be with.

So, in general...yea...these animal instincts are hard-wired into us. Victims of the biological programming resulting from countless years of evolution. But....that is generally speaking. It doesn't hold true for everyone (as we see people breaking the molds all the time, in every aspect, despite their gene markers).

[danthepoetman]

That is if you look at everyone as the same. But we are very different in our abilities to control our animal instincts.
For example, on average humans are horribly stupid when it comes to food. Growing obesity sweeping entire countries... or extreme cases of humans who simply are unable to stop eating and balloon up to 500+ pounds.
But, there are also some humans capable of completely mastering their relationship with food. They guide what they eat (despite their animal instincts for fat and sugar) towards healthy and meticulously crafted meal plans to maximize their bodies (body builders).
Or, let's talk about sex. In general humans are again rather basic here. They follow what their crotch tells them...they hook up with multiple people, they engage in risky behaviour, they spend a great deal of time being controlled by their animal instincts to reproduce (and, again, some become such extremes that they spiral out of control). But, again, some of us are able to completely suppress that animal instinct and go without sex completely (it becoming the new norm for them, asexual people).
It is the same with a range of qualities. Is sexual attraction one? Is gender another? For some people, I would imagine so...I would imagine they can chose what to be and who to be with.
So, in general...yea...these animal instincts are hard-wired into us. Victims of the biological programming resulting from countless years of evolution. But....that is generally speaking. It doesn't hold true for everyone (as we see people breaking the molds all the time, in every aspect, despite their gene markers).
Once again, I would agree with you that we indeed have a certain control. We can mannage genetic propensivity to a certain extent. And there is this slight margin we can call culture. But culture is always a way by which "nature" is showing itself. It is its color, its manifestation.
The examples you're giving are good. For food, we suspect today that people who have a tendency toward obesity were probably those who have precisely the best, most specialized genes for people who were living 3, 4, or 7 thousand years ago and more, as they could accumulate more fat and resist better to long periods of scarcity. Today, in our societies of abundance, those who didn't have these genes are strangely favoured... But whose to know precisely what real control is exercised by each over its propensity?

So, generally speaking, it is true that there is differences amongst individual choices and behavior. But when it comes to human as a whole, as you said, there is such strong patterns that they can only be attributed to purely biological behaviors, like for instance the hierarchic nature of societies, territoriality, etc. As to the individuals, you have to take into account their own particular genetic and biological background. What is shown to us here, is an example of a genetic and biological background which creates individuals of a particular nature, transsexuals.

What has always been striking to me, and also to a lot of great thinkers of the philosophical tradition, like David Hume, for instance, who has beautiful pages about this, is how we can be so rational in the conduct of what we want and what we pursue, but so utterly incapable of saying why this precise orientation is more pleasing than another for us. I'd go even further, although I don't want to enter details on this: when you carefully examine one's behavior, or even when you examine your own, you almost always realize that people act spontaneously, and only after, try to rationalize on their motives. Most of it is due to habits provided to you by education, of course, but habit is exactly one of the most important biological determinism for us, as a mechanism that favours survival strategies over dangerous innovations (just check your cat or your dog on a daily basis).
So the fact is, we love to imagine ourselves on top of things, and it's very difficult for us to admit that we're very partially the master of ourselves, especially when we can claim some particular accomplishments. But although there is indeed a certain part of ourselves that is free, the hard core is largely determined...

[trish]

Yes, one can dig to find the roots of culture within nature; but the multitude of different cultures seems to suggest nature cannot determine culture. Macbeth was only ever written once. Human cultures are a group effort; they are woven by humans driven by their natural desires and constrained by their natural capacities. Likewise with individual lives: nature, nurture and individual choice all have irreducibly significant roles to play.

[danthepoetman]

Yes, one can dig to find the roots of culture within nature; but the multitude of different cultures seems to suggest nature cannot determine culture. Macbeth was only ever written once. Human cultures are a group effort; they are woven by humans driven by their natural desires and constrained by their natural capacities. Likewise with individual lives: nature, nurture and individual choice all have irreducibly significant roles to play.
It seems we'll always disagree on this one, or chose to see it from the two opposite ends. LOL!
Culture is only lustre, Trish. All societies are hierarchic constructions, like animal societies, all are dominated by territoriality (even under the form of personal power or influence), all play for positionnig socially is made of ritual confrontations, all are dominated by signs, linguistic or others, that creates a general spirit of solidarity (and in fact all sub-groups within society), relatively coded sexual behaviors are still a huge driving force in our individual and collective lives, and our general life is still dominated by habits that translate, as I was saying, a very important biological and evolutive imperative. And I could go on!
Of course, Trish, there's individual differences, but you have to look at the whole! The whole of it all defines you much, much more, any way you choose to look at it, than your individuality does. Your identification to the group is tremendous, as it is to all of us!
Besides, you have to acknowledge what small place in your life and in every one's life, rationality has. It's minuscule. We constantly act on automatisms.
As to the great productions of art well, yes, of course. Some are able to elevate themselve to great highs in individual efforts, although often, they appeal to the common feelings which are precisely general conducts, group reactions, behavioral patterns. Shakespeare would be a good example of that, with it's meticulous portrait of human conduct and human irrational drive.