Would it be better if all gay guys transitioned?

[MsDazzler]

I was discussing with a friend the other day about how small the transgender community was...

Also, a guy said once before, "Effeminate and cute gay boys should just change to women, so we straight guys can have more options since the number of trans women would go up if they did that."

It led me to think.... I have many effeminate gay friends who were not exactly cute but they have small builds, and looked better as women...

Would it be better for them to transition if they are not having any success with guys in the gay community (masculinity and "straight acting" is highly valued and coveted, while femininity and "limp-wristed" is considered undesirable)?

We would have a lot more trans sisters and more friendships to develop... and more options for the guys!

[EvaCassini]

gay and transgendered are two very different things.

[Westheangelino]

So, a group of people who are content in being who they are (femme gay boys) should transition for the benefit of "straight" (HAHA!) men who want more opportunity to stick their dick in something? Yeeeah, nah.

[Jericho]

Brrrrrrrrr...Hellz no!

[MsDazzler]

gay and transgendered are two very different things.


I know that... but I also know some of my gay friends just transitioned to being women even though they did not identify as transgender... because they were having better luck with getting straight men as trans women than gay men as gay men.

[Erika1487]

Brrrrrrrrr...Hellz no!

lol :cheers:

[GroobyKrissy]

The only reason one should ever consider transitioning is because you want to play with boobs every second of every single day, no matter who they belong to. Period.

[Nikka]

more stupid question of the week

[mac.B]

A lot of those fems are actually reluctant transsexuals. Not everyone who is transsexual goes through with the transition and many are terrified.

[EvaCassini]

being transgender and/or transitioning is not a way to lure men to bed...they [ those guys you mentioned ] are abusing that. Sex and gender are two different entities. Sexual orientation has nothing to do with what gender or sex one is. Otherwise there wouldn't be gay people.

[bluesoul]

I know that... but I also know some of my gay friends just transitioned to being women even though they did not identify as transgender... because they were having better luck with getting straight men as trans women than gay men as gay men.

i think they should. i don't get why you're getting such negative feedback. don't most M2F transsexuals start out as gay men then transition for their own individual reasons?

tell them to do it. in fact, most transsexuals say they don't have to reveal they're trans. in the same way, tell these guys not to say they're gay guys doing it simply to sleep with chasers unless they're comfortable.

:party:

[EvaCassini]

uhhhhhhh what?

[MacShreach]

This has attracted very predictable responses. However, people like Ken Zucker have made careers out of 'reparative' therapy that conditions young transgirls into being gay men instead. Zucker has had what he describes a great success in this, which he regards as 'a better outcome' than being trans. Zucker is a leading light inthe APA, a group leader in the DSM revisions and has passed his ideas on to many in the psycho-therapy community. We simply do not know how many individuals have been affected by their activities.

In addition to the very specifically targeted brainwashing techniques used by Zucker and his fellow travellers, there are huge peer and other social pressures acting on young transgirls and 'persuading' them to become men. We know this MUST be the case because of the very large number of transwomen who transition later.

That begs the question, 'how many young trans women actually become dissatisfied gay males?' The fact is, we don't know, and trundling out tired slogans, as has been done here, helps no-one. It certainly would be a big step forward if young people felt they could freely follow the path towards gay manhood or transwomanhood according to their own needs, and not the demands of others.

Once again, in addition, I think we see here a clear example of 'World Series Syndrome' where Americans naturally assume that everythng everywhere is done as it is in the States. This is not the case. Even a very cursory examination of the gay/trans scene in Asia will show how very closely these two groups are linked. That this is less so in the US is to do with political factors surrounding the development of the gay rights movement there.

[Jericho]

being transgender and/or transitioning is not a way to lure men to bed...they [ those guys you mentioned ] are abusing that.

Oh those sly fukkers...I feel used and dirty!
Where's the shivering under a blanket smiley?

[EvaCassini]

Oh those sly fukkers...I feel used and dirty!
Where's the shivering under a blanket smiley?

hahaha, always a tickle ;)

[amberskyi]

i think they should. i don't get why you're getting such negative feedback. don't most M2F transsexuals start out as gay men then transition for their own individual reasons?

tell them to do it. in fact, most transsexuals say they don't have to reveal they're trans. in the same way, tell these guys not to say they're gay guys doing it simply to sleep with chasers unless they're comfortable.

:party:

Often times we may identify with gay first before we actually figure out what our feelings really are.growing up i knew nothing about ts woman so i just assumed that my feelings for men made me gay but i had no real way to explain the other feelings i was having concerning my body and gender expression.
I've only had "gay sex" once and it was really traumatizing for me because i felt so uncomfortable and ashamed of my body.so obviously being gay just wasn't anything i ever really was.

[Nikka]

-------------- this thread is moved to the retarded section

[GroobyKrissy]

-------------- this thread is moved to the retarded section

...so... merged with one of your own?

[EvaCassini]

Often times we may identify with gay first before we actually figure out what our feelings really are.growing up i knew nothing about ts woman so i just assumed that my feelings for men made me gay but i had no real way to explain the other feelings i was having concerning my body and gender expression.
I've only had "gay sex" once and it was really traumatizing for me because i felt so uncomfortable and ashamed of my body.so obviously being gay just want anything i ever really was.

I totally agree, but on the opposite side. I've always been only attracted to girls and tgirls. Then once I started growing more mature and realizing what my brain was saying, I became more and more active with my transition. Then boom, out of the Navy and on to taking hormones. I am still attracted to females and tgirls even though I am a transwoman. Im in a relationship with a tgirl. And as for guys...( well anyone outside of my relationship ) either has to be for porn or escorting.

[MacShreach]

A lot of those fems are actually reluctant transsexuals. Not everyone who is transsexual goes through with the transition and many are terrified.
There is definitely a serious problem if we see these things as binaries, on/off, one or the other. All species exhibit variation in every parameter, and as soon as you try to squeeze everyone into two sizes of shoes, you get problems. There are people on here who openly have stated that they are indeterminate in a binary sense as far as their gender status is concerned.

Some people like that may find themselves pressured towards transition when in fact they are more happy being in between.

What is important is not social or peer expectation, but whether the individuals concerned can have fulfilled, satisfying lives as the people they feel themselves to be. That's no-one else's call but their own.

[bluesoul]

Sexual orientation has nothing to do with what gender or sex one is. Otherwise there wouldn't be gay people.


actually, do you remember there was an episode of star trek the next generation where riker falls in love with this girl (well, non gender person though she was more femme) from a race who didn't have any gender?

well, in that episode, that girl is outcast because, according to her, she was more as a female which that society tried to repress because it bred signs of individualism.

something similar is happening here. should people only transition for 1 reason? if someone transitions from one gender to another because they've always identified as such and transitioning makes them happy, why is that the better reason than someone who wishes to find love? aren't they also doing it to be happy?

[Nikka]

...so... merged with one of your own?

:dead-1:

[bluesoul]

Often times we may identify with gay first before we actually figure out what our feelings really are.growing up i knew nothing about ts woman so i just assumed that my feelings for men made me gay but i had no real way to explain the other feelings i was having concerning my body and gender expression.
I've only had "gay sex" once and it was really traumatizing for me because i felt so uncomfortable and ashamed of my body.so obviously being gay just wasn't anything i ever really was.

i disagree with this. here is an example: let's say you meet a guy who has only had sex with men but none of those sexual encounters were fulfilling and only resulted in sex he didn't enjoy. does that make him straight?

also, i honestly don't see much different with your example and msdazzler's male friends. she said that limp-wrist femme gays aren't as appreciated in the gay community. so doesn't that then mean they're uncomfortable and ashamed? a lot of men in this community say they appreciate femininity of transsexuals, and that's what these guys have. so obviously, they'll be more comfortable here (as transsexuals) and more appreciated- because they have exactly what is desired right?

[EvaCassini]

actually, do you remember there was an episode of star trek the next generation where riker falls in love with this girl (well, non gender person though she was more femme) from a race who didn't have any gender?

well, in that episode, that girl is outcast because, according to her, she was more as a female which that society tried to repress because it bred signs of individualism.

something similar is happening here. should people only transition for 1 reason? if someone transitions from one gender to another because they've always identified as such and transitioning makes them happy, why is that the better reason than someone who wishes to find love? aren't they also doing it to be happy?


as far as taking hormones and getting surgeries to become the opposite sex....( matching you body to your brain )

I have a female inside ( not to say, that because I have a "female" inside, means I have an attraction to men )
I am transitioning my body to match how I feel on the inside.

If someone wants to do this just to lure men, or make a statement, or anything other then something logical, then they are making a very very big step in the wrong direction.

You do realize that hormones ( let alone surgeries ) do some very irreversible things to ones body. If some random gay guy ( who is happy with male body but can't get other men to bed with him OR can't find his male love ) So he then devises a way to transition into female ( of sorts ) just to lure men into bed or trap guys for love. See what I am saying? IF and only IF the "gay person" aforementioned feels as though he wants to be a she for one purpose ( for ones own happiness and sanity ), then fine, then his purpose is valid.

I am transitioning to make me happy in my own body, not anyone else. I don't do it for love ( love will come regardless and it has ), I don't do it for family ( lost half my family because of it ), and I don't do it to say "Fuck the man and his rules ( that's absurd ) but for this there is an exception...those who are "genderqueer" or "in-betweeners", who feel comfortable being both male and female on the outside, because that's how they feel on the inside.

Wanna know what my endo wanted as a reasonable and just answer to figure out that I truly wanted to transition for the right reasons? I told him this "I want to transition, so that my outside can match my inside." That is how I truly felt and still feel.

Because nowadays, people's minds are more open and so it is so much easier for people to make mature decisions about what they want to do with their body.

[bluesoul]

I am transitioning to make me happy in my own body, not anyone else. I don't do it for love ( love will come regardless and it has ), I don't do it for family ( lost half my family because of it ), and I don't do it to say "Fuck the man and his rules ( that's absurd ) but for this there is an exception...those who are "genderqueer" or "in-betweeners", who feel comfortable being both male and female on the outside, because that's how they feel on the inside.

yes, you did it for those reasons, but why tell someone else they cannot do it for their own reasons? if this is a personal journey, then why not let them personalize it for themselves? is there a guide they need to follow?

also, MacShreach said some might find comfort in an indeterminate state. i'm not sure if he means like a crossdresser or someone who doesn't necessarily take hormones or have boobs etc, but that's what i took it to mean. why vilify them? just the same way you get to set your own label (i'm a transsexual) let them do so

[amberskyi]

i disagree with this. here is an example: let's say you meet a guy who has only had sex with men but none of those sexual encounters were fulfilling and only resulted in sex he didn't enjoy. does that make him straight?

also, i honestly don't see much different with your example and msdazzler's male friends. she said that limp-wrist femme gays aren't as appreciated in the gay community. so doesn't that then mean they're uncomfortable and ashamed? a lot of men in this community say they appreciate femininity of transsexuals, and that's what these guys have. so obviously, they'll be more comfortable here (as transsexuals) and more appreciated- because they have exactly what is desired right?

Feeling ashamed about not being appreciated is completely different than feeling ashamed because ones body is male.did i really need to explain that lol.
its not that i didn't enjoy having sex with men,i didn't enjoy having sex with men as a man

[EvaCassini]

There are transgender, genderqueer, and crossdressers. They/we do what they/we want to feel "normal". For someone ( like me ) transgender/transsexual, we undergo very physical and mental changes. Everyone is different and yes, they do have the right to do what pleases them, but for someone who undergoes something as drastic as physical and mental changes, they should have a meaningful reason. Otherwise they could end up regretting it...which leads to many things that are not good.

What other reasons can you list?

[Merkurie]

I have known "gay" guys who I thought probably would have been happier if they transitioned. I am pretty sure there are people who got lost in the gay community because transitioning was too high a hurdle for them.

I read an article not too long ago about gay crossdressers, real life gay men in relationships with men, who hid their crossdressing from their gay partners. Real surprising to read, but these people were in gay relationships and lying about being crossdressers or playing their desires off as drag.

I know I was always shocked at how much disdain toward transgirls was expressed by some gays.

[amberskyi]

yes, you did it for those reasons, but why tell someone else they cannot do it for their own reasons? if this is a personal journey, then why not let them personalize it for themselves? is there a guide they need to follow?

also, MacShreach said some might find comfort in an indeterminate state. i'm not sure if he means like a crossdresser or someone who doesn't necessarily take hormones or have boobs etc, but that's what i took it to mean. why vilify them? just the same way you get to set your own label (i'm a transsexual) let them do so

Because it would be horrible to wake up one day after making irrevocable changes to ones body just to realize it was all a mistake.
That's why in the US we are required to go through therapy and yes there its a requirement of sorts to be diagnosed with gender identity disorder.one needs that diagnosis to get medical treatment.

[bluesoul]

its not that i didn't enjoy having sex with men,i didn't enjoy having sex with men as a man

that's you. maybe these gay guys don't enjoy not being appreciated for what they consider being their natural feminine self.

to me, it just sounds like your saying your reasons for transitioning are more legitimate than theirs.

[EvaCassini]

I have known "gay" guys who I thought probably would have been happier if they transitioned. I am pretty sure there are people who got lost in the gay community because transitioning was too high a hurdle for them.

I read an article not too long ago about gay crossdressers, real life gay men in relationships with men, who hid their crossdressing from their gay partners. Real surprising to read, but these people were in gay relationships and lying about being crossdressers or playing their desires off as drag.

I know I was always shocked at how much disdain toward transgirls was expressed by some gays.



Right. I have known quite a few gay guys who are very ... "eww-out" by transgirls. Just because we all fit under the LGBT umbrella, doesn't mean that gays are pro-trans or any other variation. Everyone has their own point of view of the world, some good and happy, some not so much.

[EvaCassini]

that's you. maybe these gay guys don't enjoy not being appreciated for what they consider being their natural feminine self.

to me, it just sounds like your saying your reasons for transitioning are more legitimate than theirs.

what other legitimate reasons would one have to undergo such drastic changes as we do? I am curious.

[bluesoul]

I know I was always shocked at how much disdain toward transgirls was expressed by some gays.

how much disdain do transgirls have for crossdressers? everytime you read about someone asking about which club to find transsexuals they're told "you don't want to go to this club coz it's nothing but gays and nasty crossdressers" yet when shit hits the fan, guess who supports them the most (and you know it ain't the straight people)

even this whole debate just seems to stem from that disdain.

[jennylicious]

that's you. maybe these gay guys don't enjoy not being appreciated for what they consider being their natural feminine self.

to me, it just sounds like your saying your reasons for transitioning are more legitimate than theirs.

It is.

On the on hand you have decades of research legitimising transitioning for transgender people.

On the other hand you have no research or medical belief that anyone should need to put themselves through that for any other reason.

[amberskyi]

that's you. maybe these gay guys don't enjoy not being appreciated for what they consider being their natural feminine self.

to me, it just sounds like your saying your reasons for transitioning are more legitimate than theirs.

I fail to see your argument.if one is comfortable in one birth gender than you shouldn't change it.you will just regret it.but I'm sure you know more about transsexualism than i (who is actually trans and gone through therapy on account of it) do sir lol

[Buddy Wood]

I think all hairless men should just transition. I mean fuck it...you don't have body hair soooo just become a girl so I can fuck you and make porn with you!!

Sounds legit.

[EvaCassini]

I think all hairless men should just transition. I mean fuck it...you don't have body hair soooo just become a girl so I can fuck you and make porn with you!!

Sounds legit.

hahaha :p

[bluesoul]

what other legitimate reasons would one have to undergo such drastic changes as we do? I am curious.

i'm saying the individual going through the transition gets to make up that decision for themselves. just because you don't agree with it doesn't make it any less legitimate.

[EvaCassini]

you still are not making any sense and you still have yet to come up with a reason as legitimate as mine, Amber's and any other TS or better.

I disagree with it if the reason is superfluous and leads to said person REGRETTING such life-changing decisions and then turns to negative things or even suicide.

[bluesoul]

I fail to see your argument.if one is comfortable in one birth gender than you shouldn't change it.you will just regret it.but I'm sure you know more about transsexualism than i (who is actually trans and gone through therapy on account of it) do sir lol

you fail to see my argument because you're saying "this is how it should be". why do you care what someone wants to do with their life to achieve happiness?

oh and now because you inserted "am trans so i know more" suddenly my opinion is null and void right? why not argue your point if you disagree and leave your gender out of it. you don't see me saying "am a guy so i have the upper hand on this subject"

if you want to be treated fair. act like it

[amberskyi]

I refuse to listen to someone who wants to argue that apples and potatoes are the same lol

[bluesoul]

I refuse to listen to someone who wants to argue that apples and potatoes are the same lol

cool, but you forgot to thumbs down my last post.

[danthepoetman]

God! I so wish there could be even more women! I wish women could multiply and completely outnumber us, guys! Ms Dazzler, even if your basic thinking on the question seems a bit shaky, I find the idea soooo lovely, not unlike yourself, if I might say! <3

I don’t think there shouldn’t be any doubt anymore that transsexualism is biological. It is a form of intersexuality. For someone to go through so much, basically, it has to be for a good reason and this reason is a deep, deep sense of inadequacy which appear very early in the life of transsexuals, very often as early as gender identity normally develops in children. More than 30 or 40 different conditions have been identified as causes of, or relating to, intersexuation. Sexual hormones are every bit as important in foetal development as it is at puberty in a very delicate process during which many things can happen to change the whole future of an individual. Numerous and very important neurological studies have shown that a specific region of the brain is involved in it. The sexually dimorphic nucleus is an area close to the hypothalamus, that has been found to be similar in m2f and in females and dissimilar in males. It is a region closely related to sexual functions and sexual life. Transsexuality is not a whim or a fantasy, or some kind of purely psychological oddity, with which you could play with and which you could modify or negotiate with, although it most definitely includes some degrees. If one doesn’t suffer from such feeling of inadequacy, he shouldn’t go through such process; if it’s only a matter of social pressure or practical purposes, such a drastic change should of course not be undertaken. I think the long term consequences for the person would then probably be dramatic, eventually. Need it to be said that your sex is an enormous part of who you are. You don’t change it lightly without putting your very sanity at risk…

LOL! Indeed, Krissy. I would definitely stay home all day every day to play with myself...

The only reason one should ever consider transitioning is because you want to play with boobs every second of every single day, no matter who they belong to. Period.

[Kayden Harley]

why do you care what someone wants to do with their life to achieve happiness?

Because after all the blood, sweat and tears we've put into making sure our gender is taken seriously, the last thing we need is a bunch of clowns running around telling people they're 'Transgender' when in reality they're just gay guys who want to sleep with 'str8' guys.

The ONLY reason we are trans is because we couldn't possibly live another day in our previous (and wrong) bodies.




oh and now because you inserted "am trans so i know more" suddenly my opinion is null and void right? why not argue your point if you disagree and leave your gender out of it. you don't see me saying "am a guy so i have the upper hand on this subject"

if you want to be treated fair. act like it

... because the fact that we have gone through the transition in question means we have been exposed to the therapy & decades of research that supports our argument (i.e. 1st hand experience, facts, scientific evidence). Now tell us, what do YOU bring to the table to support your argument other than your opinion?

[mac.B]

There is definitely a serious problem if we see these things as binaries, on/off, one or the other. All species exhibit variation in every parameter, and as soon as you try to squeeze everyone into two sizes of shoes, you get problems. There are people on here who openly have stated that they are indeterminate in a binary sense as far as their gender status is concerned.

Some people like that may find themselves pressured towards transition when in fact they are more happy being in between.

What is important is not social or peer expectation, but whether the individuals concerned can have fulfilled, satisfying lives as the people they feel themselves to be. That's no-one else's call but their own.


Thats why I made it a point to say "some" and "not all". Ive met femboys on both sides of the spectrum.

[littletwink]

I admit to being part trans, part straight, and part gay. There is no transition for me to make.

[GroobyKrissy]

Well this thread took a rather serious turn.

So, can we at least all agree that the OP (not OP'er) isn't a real, serious question since it will never actually really happen? There isn't suddenly going to be this mass exodus of effeminate gay guys (or masculine gay girls) suddenly seeking a transition process to a different gender or identity. So, the question is hardly worth the discussion, which I think the jokers here understood immediately. The question of "Would it be better...?" is, in fact impossible to determine since you can hardly quantify "better". To do that, you would have to determine the time frame, the social mean of the time, numbers, statistics, populations, etc. etc. etc.

That being said, and hopefully understood that the question itself has no answer... to move onto the core discussion:

I have said this before and I will say it again. The parties involved here will absolutely NEVER agree because they're operating on and with a different set of definitions. You must first define your terms in order to have a serious and meaningful conversation about "legitimate" (a terrible word... "legitimate rape" anyone?) transition, who has the "right" to do it, and even what "Transsexual" means.

Once the definitions have been laid out then come to some agreement on what they are, even for the purposes of this ONE discussion, and argue the points of your case from there. Quite honestly, from observation and participation here at HA, not very many people are able to even do that without throwing up the hands in frustration (proven in this thread and quite a few others).

Bluesoul actually has a very good argument, despite the opposition. It is not one that I actually agree with in its entirety, but his main point, drawn out to its logical conclusion bears far more weight than the others voiced. He is simply stating that one person cannot determine, either on moral, ethical, or logical grounds (notice the omission of "emotional grounds"), if another person has a "legitimate" (again, not the correct word but I'll use it because it has been introduced) reason to transition or not. My disagreement to this would be simply that you don't know the moral and ethical standings of the people involved to make that statement.

If anyone wants to actually engage in a serious CONVERSATION about this here, I'm game. Of course, you'll have to actually read my posts, answer the questions posed, and agree to shake hands at the end. And obviously, that goes for me as well.

I'm just writing up blog posts and checking in every now and then so fire away.

[rockabilly]

Another mass exodus? You could hear the techno beats echoing across the desert. It could spark a new religion.

[GroobyKrissy]

Another mass exodus? You could hear the techno beats echoing across the desert. It could spark a new religion.

Probably more realistic to say, if that happens... a new gender. Another one.

[bluesoul]

Because after all the blood, sweat and tears we've put into making sure our gender is taken seriously, the last thing we need is a bunch of clowns running around telling people they're 'Transgender' when in reality they're just gay guys who want to sleep with 'str8' guys.

The ONLY reason we are trans is because we couldn't possibly live another day in our previous (and wrong) bodies.

what would you even do to stop them? didn't MacShreach already state (i believe in another thread as well) that in some other countries gay men will regularly dress up when they need to then go back to being gay men as it suits them?

i'm sure this happens in the western world as well. it even happened with britney markham's brother. was he going around saying not to take him seriously because he just needed to make a couple of bucks? no. in fact, britney markham later came on and said they were laughing about the matter (http://www.hungangels.com/vboard/showpost.php?p=950939&postcount=52).

also- what about this thread? (http://www.hungangels.com/vboard/showthread.php?t=55510) clearly there are men who like transsexuals who'd also happily indulge femme guys. so if gay men won't accept them, why not have them transition here- they'd obviously not be thrown out by the guys

whenever someone here starts a thread asking if he's gay- one of the most popular answers is who cares right? labels mean nothing blah blah blah. well, obviously not. because everyone wants to be straight

[rjshemalelover]

Hell no theres already enough dressed up gays running around making true Transgender persons into a joke to society.

[amberskyi]

Well this thread took a rather serious turn.

So, can we at least all agree that the OP (not OP'er) isn't a real, serious question since it will never actually really happen? There isn't suddenly going to be this mass exodus of effeminate gay guys (or masculine gay girls) suddenly seeking a transition process to a different gender or identity. So, the question is hardly worth the discussion, which I think the jokers here understood immediately. The question of "Would it be better...?" is, in fact impossible to determine since you can hardly quantify "better". To do that, you would have to determine the time frame, the social mean of the time, numbers, statistics, populations, etc. etc. etc.

That being said, and hopefully understood that the question itself has no answer... to move onto the core discussion:

I have said this before and I will say it again. The parties involved here will absolutely NEVER agree because they're operating on and with a different set of definitions. You must first define your terms in order to have a serious and meaningful conversation about "legitimate" (a terrible word... "legitimate rape" anyone?) transition, who has the "right" to do it, and even what "Transsexual" means.

Once the definitions have been laid out then come to some agreement on what they are, even for the purposes of this ONE discussion, and argue the points of your case from there. Quite honestly, from observation and participation here at HA, not very many people are able to even do that without throwing up the hands in frustration (proven in this thread and quite a few others).

Bluesoul actually has a very good argument, despite the opposition. It is not one that I actually agree with in its entirety, but his main point, drawn out to its logical conclusion bears far more weight than the others voiced. He is simply stating that one person cannot determine, either on moral, ethical, or logical grounds (notice the omission of "emotional grounds"), if another person has a "legitimate" (again, not the correct word but I'll use it because it has been introduced) reason to transition or not. My disagreement to this would be simply that you don't know the moral and ethical standings of the people involved to make that statement.

If anyone wants to actually engage in a serious CONVERSATION about this here, I'm game. Of course, you'll have to actually read my posts, answer the questions posed, and agree to shake hands at the end. And obviously, that goes for me as well.

I'm just writing up blog posts and checking in every now and then so fire away.

for me if one feels like a woman than one is a ts woman,its just that simple for me

[GroobyKrissy]

for me if one feels like a woman than one is a ts woman,its just that simple for me

I think Bluesoul can take this... but to start things off, this isn't really where your path of logic from your previous posts here leads.

[amberskyi]

I think Bluesoul can take this... but to start things off, this isn't really where your path of logic from your previous posts here leads.

he was trying to argue that femininity is femininity and that might be reason enough to transition.however we have men who identify as men who by societal standards are feminine (the pop singer prince comes to mind) just as we have woman are comfortable being a woman but may have masculine traits (actress michelle rodriguez comes to mind).
according to wiki the definition of transsexualism is "Transsexualism describes the condition in which an individual identifies with a gender inconsistent or not culturally associated with their assigned sex, i.e. in which a person's assigned sex at birth conflicts with their psychological gender."
i have to say i agree if you truly feel like your a woman in the wrong body (or man in a females body) than your a ts.

[livepersona]

This would destroy the skinny jean market!

[amberskyi]

I think Bluesoul can take this... but to start things off, this isn't really where your path of logic from your previous posts here leads.

also my previous post were about how i first identified as gay because as a young person that all i knew.i wasnt exposed to anything transgendered as a child.while i had feeling of being the wrong gender i was also attracted to men.in my limited experience as a young person (i "came out" at 12 ) gay was the closest thing i could identify as.
i knew something was deeply wrong tho when i finally had sex for the first time (with a man as a man) and even tho i was attracted to my partner i was a bit traumatized by the experience.i was exposed and naked in front of a person in a body i hated and he treated me according to my birth gender.

[danthepoetman]

also my previous post were about how i first identified as gay because as a young person that all i knew.i wasnt exposed to anything transgendered as a child.while i had feeling of being the wrong gender i was also attracted to men.in my limited experience as a young person (i "came out" at 12 ) gay was the closest thing i could identify as.
i knew something was deeply wrong tho when i finally had sex for the first time (with a man as a man) and even tho i was attracted to my partner i was a bit traumatized by the experience.i was exposed and naked in front of a person in a body i hated and he treated me according to my birth gender.

That's precisely what I was trying to say in my silly vain way. You're not transsexual if it's just peer pressure. It's much deeper than that. It's biological. Deeper than any arguing! Is my English so bad I can't be understood, or am I just too often under the influence of Scotch Whisky?
Amber, your experience is absolutely typical of someone who precisely has a biological female identity.
(Tell me: am I too full of shit to be understood???)

[GroobyKrissy]

he was trying to argue that femininity is femininity and that might be reason enough to transition.however we have men who identify as men who by societal standards are feminine (the pop singer prince comes to mind) just as we have woman are comfortable being a woman but may have masculine traits (actress michelle rodriguez comes to mind).
according to wiki the definition of transsexualism is "Transsexualism describes the condition in which an individual identifies with a gender inconsistent or not culturally associated with their assigned sex, i.e. in which a person's assigned sex at birth conflicts with their psychological gender."
i have to say i agree if you truly feel like your a woman in the wrong body (or man in a females body) than your a ts.

I don't want to put words into his mouth but I don't think that was his intended point. What he was really arguing (I think) is what you've already stated indirectly (if you feel... you are...), before this even - as one of the few who will actually define their terms, which I've already applauded:

That people should have the right, regardless of what any outside force thinks, to do what they want and feel they should do with their bodies AND (that "and" is important) that other people (TS or not) don't have the right to judge that person's motivations for doing so.

[Rabbiteyes]

I don't want more competition.... ~growls~

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt240/amitaydrums/angrykitten.jpg

[amberskyi]

I don't want to put words into his mouth but I don't think that was his intended point. What he was really arguing (I think) is what you've already stated indirectly (if you feel... you are...), before this even - as one of the few who will actually define their terms, which I've already applauded:

That people should have the right, regardless of what any outside force thinks, to do what they want and feel they should do with their bodies AND (that "and" is important) that other people (TS or not) don't have the right to judge that person's motivations for doing so.
of course you have the right to do what you want but im not going to respect you as a woman if your only transitioning to attract "straight men".love it or hate it but thats my opinion

[bluesoul]

he was trying to argue that femininity is femininity and that might be reason enough to transition.however we have men who identify as men who by societal standards are feminine (the pop singer prince comes to mind) just as we have woman are comfortable being a woman but may have masculine traits (actress michelle rodriguez comes to mind).

again, that's your definition. prince has described himself as being androgynous where he blurs the lines between his gender with his deep voice, manicured nails petite build with heels yet he's athletic and plays lots of sports and looooves women. and have you seen the women prince loves? he loves a woman's woman. these aren't the butch lesbians. am willing to bet prince has to act overly masculine to compensate for his tiny frame and height.

similarly, michelle rodriguez isn't masculine. she's just really fit and strong. some men really love these kind of women because they know they can "rough it" and have a certain type of personality they like.

i wouldn't even say grace jones is masculine. she's probably the best example of an androgynous person because she can actually look extremely feminine but still maintain blurry feminine traits (make up, hair cut, flat chest etc)

it's almost like you think women have to all fit a certain look and have a certain "girly" personality otherwise they're suddenly masculine.

[GroobyKrissy]

also my previous post were about how i first identified as gay because as a young person that all i knew.i wasnt exposed to anything transgendered as a child.while i had feeling of being the wrong gender i was also attracted to men.in my limited experience as a young person (i "came out" at 12 ) gay was the closest thing i could identify as.
i knew something was deeply wrong tho when i finally had sex for the first time (with a man as a man) and even tho i was attracted to my partner i was a bit traumatized by the experience.i was exposed and naked in front of a person in a body i hated and he treated me according to my birth gender.

Honestly, I didn't really get that from anything he wrote... although I'm guessing you are referring to this:


...Don't most M2F transsexuals start out as gay men then transition for their own individual reasons?

This is quite possibly one of the most divisive but interesting questions that I've seen asked (in a variety of different places... not just here). Quite frankly, there will NEVER be an actual answer to this question mostly because people are not willing to be honest. I don't agree with the actual question and would pose it as:

Don't some, truly M2F Transsexuals start out as crossdressers, then transition for their own individual reasons?

Frankly Amberskyi, most people are simply not as honest or forthcoming as you are. Most adult, "transitioned" Transsexuals would never admit to having sex "as a male". Fewer still will admit that is was a sexual encounter WITH AN ITEM OF CLOTHING that put them on the path of realizing they are "Transsexual". Perhaps it is even something that cannot actually be remembered at all (happened as an infant / child).

If you are a hardline "Transsexual at birth" believer, you simply CANNOT logically admit this is possible... in any circumstances. It would dissolve your own argument (possible = probable). Therefore, such believers will simply not admit it. I'm not saying that "TS at birth" doesn't exist. I believe it does. But, I also believe you can come to the realization that you are TS through a variety of different ways, methods, and in vastly different amounts of time.

Anyway, I think that was his point with that question.

If you're a hardline "Transsexual at birth" believer, there really is no discussing the point. You MUST believe that everyone who does not fully transition, using every resource, every fiber of their being, every penny... is not truly Transsexual. To give one case against, virtually crumbles the entire argument.

[amberskyi]

again, that's your definition. prince has described himself as being androgynous where he blurs the lines between his gender with his deep voice, manicured nails petite build with heels yet he's athletic and plays lots of sports and looooves women. and have you seen the women prince loves? he loves a woman's woman. these aren't the butch lesbians. am willing to bet prince has to act overly masculine to compensate for his tiny frame and height.

similarly, michelle rodriguez isn't masculine. she's just really fit and strong. some men really love these kind of women because they know they can "rough it" and have a certain type of personality they like.

i wouldn't even say grace jones is masculine. she's probably the best example of an androgynous person because she can actually look extremely feminine but still maintain blurry feminine traits (make up, hair cut, flat chest etc)

it's almost like you think women have to all fit a certain look and have a certain "girly" personality otherwise they're suddenly masculine.
because of my aggressive,opinionated demeanor some people consider me to be masculine but i dont cease to be a woman.
you actually proved my point hun its not about masculine or feminine traits but the gender that someone identifies as

[amberskyi]

Honestly, I didn't really get that from anything he wrote... although I'm guessing you are referring to this:



This is quite possibly one of the most divisive but interesting questions that I've seen asked (in a variety of different places... not just here). Quite frankly, there will NEVER be an actual answer to this question mostly because people are not willing to be honest. I don't agree with the actual question and would pose it as:

Don't some, truly M2F Transsexuals start out as crossdressers, then transition for their own individual reasons?

Frankly Amberskyi, most people are simply not as honest or forthcoming as you are. Most adult, "transitioned" Transsexuals would never admit to having sex "as a male". Fewer still will admit that is was a sexual encounter WITH AN ITEM OF CLOTHING that put them on the path of realizing they are "Transsexual". Perhaps it is even something that cannot actually be remembered at all (happened as an infant / child).

If you are a hardline "Transsexual at birth" believer, you simply CANNOT logically admit this is possible... in any circumstances. It would dissolve your own argument (possible = probable). Therefore, such believers will simply not admit it. I'm not saying that "TS at birth" doesn't exist. I believe it does. But, I also believe you can come to the realization that you are TS through a variety of different ways, methods, and in vastly different amounts of time.

Anyway, I think that was his point with that question.

If you're a hardline "Transsexual at birth" believer, there really is no discussing the point. You MUST believe that everyone who does not fully transition, using every resource, every fiber of their being, every penny... is not truly Transsexual. To give one case against, virtually crumbles the entire argument.

not at all hun, certainly there are ts woman who havent transitioned due to a variety of factors.please dont associate beliefs to me that i havent stated myself.

[GroobyKrissy]

of course you have the right to do what you want but im not going to respect you as a woman if your only transitioning to attract "straight men".love it or hate it but thats my opinion

And you're correct... AN OPINION. Not a statement of fact.

That is NOT how most TS will state it. They will emphatically state, that person is not TS. There is a massive, massive difference.

In this case, you can accurately gauge the motive, because it has already been ludicrously stated - to have sex or attract straight men. Let's just be realistic. FEW people actually fully transition for that purpose. If that is the goal, most will simply CD... agreed?

What must be realized here is that in the larger world, OUTSIDE of this ridiculous example, YOU CANNOT ACCURATELY JUDGE THE MOTIVES OF THE PERSON (unless they have expressly told you). That is where people will depart ways... they think they can.

[GroobyKrissy]

not at all hun, certainly there are ts woman who havent transitioned due to a variety of factors.please dont associate beliefs to me that i havent stated myself.

Ummm... I wasn't... and I didn't.

I didn't state this was your point of view. I stated this is the view of HARDLINE TS AT BIRTH believers.

You have already admitted you are NOT that in simply defining your definition of TS as a "feeling".

[amberskyi]

well of course i can only go based on the situation that was presented to me via this thread duh lol

[amberskyi]

Ummm... I wasn't... and I didn't.

I didn't state this was your point of view. I stated this is the view of HARDLINE TS AT BIRTH believers.

You have already admitted you are NOT that in simply defining your definition of TS as a "feeling".

what else would it be but a feeling that presented it self when i became aware of gender as a child.you cant say its a certainty when your body and everyone else is telling you other wise.
very few children have convictions at the age of 5 lol

[GroobyKrissy]

well of course i can only go based on the situation that was presented to me via this thread duh lol

Geez. And we were getting along so nicely. I hope there was some sarcasm in there... hard to tell sometimes with you.

If not:
Really? You can't think outside this thread and extrapolate out the logic beyond it?

If it was:
Strike the above two lines.

[GroobyKrissy]

what else would it be but a feeling that presented it self when i became aware of gender as a child.you cant say its a certainty when your body and everyone else is telling you other wise.
very few children have convictions at the age of 5 lol

And... we agree. Trust me, you're in the minority even more than you know. Most hardliners would not agree with you. They would emphatically state it is birth... or nothing. There can be not accounting for "revelation" with this belief structure.

[amberskyi]

And... we agree. Trust me, you're in the minority even more than you know. Most hardliners would not agree with you. They would emphatically state it is birth... or nothing. There can be not accounting for "revelation" with this belief structure.

well imagine they probably get way to hung up on words and their meanings.not even gg girls know they are girls at birth.gender is something we become aware of as we grow up

[GroobyKrissy]

well imagine they probably get way to hung up on words and their meanings.not even gg girls know they are girls at birth.gender is something we become aware of as we grow up

And that is a very nice, sensible, and intellectual thing to state. See... you and Bluesoul actually pretty much agree... just a very minor difference.

[AllanahStarrNYC]

WHAT? LOL, I have been reading some of these topics lately and either IQ levels dropped severely since I joined this place or someone put something in the Kool-Aid . I thought we were supposed to be ADVANCING...Am I Gay, TS are Really Men, All gays should transition...speechless!

[MacShreach]

because of my aggressive,opinionated demeanor some people consider me to be masculine but i dont cease to be a woman.
you actually proved my point hun its not about masculine or feminine traits but the gender that someone identifies as
Honey, you are not aggressive or masculine. You have opinions and you will state them and stick to them come hell or high water. My mother was exactly the same. Did it make her masculine? I think not. Doesn't say in my book that women have to be demure or deferential.

Just about every time we relate, you say something, I am absolutely certain not for effect but because you're you, that makes me go, 'yup, girl.'

[Prospero]

WHAT? LOL, I have been reading some of these topics lately and either IQ levels dropped severely since I joined this place or someone put something in the Kool-Aid . I thought we were supposed to be ADVANCING...Am I Gay, TS are Really Men, All gays should transition...speechless!


Allanah... if you are referring to the Am I Gay thread I started yesterday it was meant to be both an ironic reflection on the number of threads when men agonise over their sexual identities because they like T girls... (one seems to start every other day.).. and was also started in the now obviously vain hope it would draw all of those guys into one thread instead of splattering the whole site. Didn't work.

[MacShreach]

WHAT? LOL, I have been reading some of these topics lately and either IQ levels dropped severely since I joined this place or someone put something in the Kool-Aid . I thought we were supposed to be ADVANCING...Am I Gay, TS are Really Men, All gays should transition...speechless!
Hi Allanah, long time. Nice to hear a familiar voice; I hope you're well and happy.

I think some of us are reading it as 'some gays' not 'all gays'. There is definitely a population of transwomen who are still living as men. Whether this is because they are in denial, for social or religious reasons, peer pressure, maybe just because they simply do not know, is not clear. But the fact that there are women who transition later means this population must exist.

Following Blanchard's typology, the assumption would be made that these are autogynephiles, but there are late-transitioning women who clearly fit his HSTS profile. (Blanchard's is only one approach I agree, but at least it is both self-contained and comprehensive.) Many of these women will freely admit to having been gay men or boys before they transitioned. That means we have to ask the question, 'what proportion of gay males actually are TS who are suppressing or denying?'

So I have certainly been seeing this as 'should some highly feminine gay men who are maybe ambivalent about their gender, consider seeing if they would be more fulfilled as transwomen, or some gender-queer point in between?' to which the answer IMO must be 'yes'.

I know you've had your run-ins with the gay community and I sympathise with the hurt that must have caused, but it must be better for someone who is presenting as a gay male but is unfulfilled in that gender identity, to change gender, if that makes them feel happier or more fulfilled.

[MacShreach]

what else would it be but a feeling that presented it self when i became aware of gender as a child.you cant say its a certainty when your body and everyone else is telling you other wise.
very few children have convictions at the age of 5 lol

Amber I hope you don't think this is rude, and if you do, just tell me to shove it, but does the above mean that you knew you were a girl by the time you were 5? Feel free to PM me the response to that if you'd rather.

[iagodelgado]

I've read too many life stories, told first hand, about men who transition to female 24/7, 7 days a week, 52 weeks a year, but who do not consider themselves transsexual, to believe that all those who transition really feel like one gender trapped inside the body of the opposite gender.

This is quite different to the normally accepted definition of transsexual.

I don't know how prevalent it is, because a lot of the time I have no first hand account of the reason for transition.

These transitions include part e.g. hormones, breasts, hair etc etc or complete, including SRS.

The reasons quoted are diverse. They include getting to sleep with straight men, sheer sensationalism, getting to sleep with gay men, and sheer fetish (having one's own cock, balls, and breasts.

Mac is right. Some folk identify as indeterminate. I've read of several cases of people rejecting transsexual in favour of shemale or boneca (doll). They see themselves as in betweenies.

Not all such cases (non-TS who transition) come to regret it. In the majority of cases they seem to think it was the right choice.

Then there are those who part transition or indeed go through SRS. And for whatever reason, decide they then want to detransition.

And I remember one case where the individual fluctuated between M & F. This doesn't fit your classic TS definition either, but one does not have the right to enforce one gender, or the other, any more than one can tell a TS they have no right to transition.

[amberskyi]

Amber I hope you don't think this is rude, and if you do, just tell me to shove it, but does the above mean that you knew you were a girl by the time you were 5? Feel free to PM me the response to that if you'd rather.

I knew i was extremely confused about why me and my sister were different.i didn't like the fact that people started to treat us differently according to our genders.
The feelings got stronger as we grew up were being taught traditional gender roles.for a child that starts with toys and friends

[amberskyi]

I've read too many life stories, told first hand, about men who transition to female 24/7, 7 days a week, 52 weeks a year, but who do not consider themselves transsexual, to believe that all those who transition really feel like one gender trapped inside the body of the opposite gender.

This is quite different to the normally accepted definition of transsexual.

I don't know how prevalent it is, because a lot of the time I have no first hand account of the reason for transition.

These transitions include part e.g. hormones, breasts, hair etc etc or complete, including SRS.

The reasons quoted are diverse. They include getting to sleep with straight men, sheer sensationalism, getting to sleep with gay men, and sheer fetish (having one's own cock, balls, and breasts.

Mac is right. Some folk identify as indeterminate. I've read of several cases of people rejecting transsexual in favour of shemale or boneca (doll). They see themselves as in betweenies.

Not all such cases (non-TS who transition) come to regret it. In the majority of cases they seem to think it was the right choice.

Then there are those who part transition or indeed go through SRS. And for whatever reason, decide they then want to detransition.

And I remember one case where the individual fluctuated between M & F. This doesn't fit your classic TS definition either, but one does not have the right to enforce one gender, or the other, any more than one can tell a TS they have no right to transition.

I think its natural for ts woman to not want to be associated with such people.when you truly feel like your the wrong gender you want nothing more than to be accepted as and treated like the gender you feel.
We feel threatened by such people because "normal society" has a tendency to lump us all together and how can we ever get to a point where society accepts ts woman as woman when you have people running around saying they aren't a woman but a shemale (it).

[GroobyKrissy]

I think its natural for ts woman to not want to be associated with such people.when you truly feel like your the wrong gender you want nothing more than to be accepted as and treated like the gender you feel.
We feel threatened by such people because "normal society" has a tendency to lump us all together and how can we ever get to a point where society accepts ts woman as woman when you have people running around saying they aren't a woman but a shemale (it).

So, let us expand on the logic then.

First, to continue, we need to answer a few basic questions.

A. Do you agree that there are TWO widely (that is, if you posed the question on the street, "What are the genders?") accepted genders (we should get away from using the term, "woman", which is technically a description of gender - i.e. - manly, he's the man, etc.), Male and Female. I would guess you would probably get maybe 10% or less who would recognize it differently here in the US... probably less than that worldwide.

B. Are you stating that TS should be / is a different gender (science and the public at large should now say there are three distinct genders: Male, Female, and TS - all should have the equivalent rights, privileges, etc. etc.)?

C. If you are not stating B, then you must believe that TS fall into the "female" gender, correct?

We can proceed from there but those questions need answering first.

[BeardedOne]

I'm skipping way ahead on this thread, so have missed a number of the replies (I'll catch up later), but in what I see as a rather fluid (As opposed to simply binary) gender definition/variant, femme guys do not necessarily become/equal T-girls. I've dated both and have seen serious differences, first-hand (As it were).

Just this past weekend, TW and I were on a short day-away decompress and when we were checking out of the hotel she noted the very femme gent at the front desk and said "You have a beautiful face, I bet you look great in drag!" and the guy nearly had a heart attack. =:O It was pretty clear that he was as gay as pink ink and that he was pretty comfortable in his femme persona, but he was not at all in tune to crossing the gender lines any further. In his case, he seemed happy with where he was on the sliding gender scale.

It's not for us to second-guess a person's comfort zone.

[SpoogeMonkey]

i agree, all gay guys should transition so there is an end to homophobia and it ends the 'are we gay' questions on here.

wow.. is that what star trek did?

[Ben]

I was discussing with a friend the other day about how small the transgender community was...

Also, a guy said once before, "Effeminate and cute gay boys should just change to women, so we straight guys can have more options since the number of trans women would go up if they did that."

It led me to think.... I have many effeminate gay friends who were not exactly cute but they have small builds, and looked better as women...

Would it be better for them to transition if they are not having any success with guys in the gay community (masculinity and "straight acting" is highly valued and coveted, while femininity and "limp-wristed" is considered undesirable)?

We would have a lot more trans sisters and more friendships to develop... and more options for the guys!

Well, if they desire it.
Maybe the state should force effeminate guys to transition -- ha ha!
I mean, not all gay guys desire it. If I were to categorize myself, well, I'd say I'm bisexual. I've never had any desire to transition.
Take, say, lesbians. I mean do -- or should -- all lesbians transition???
No. It's absurd, silly.
I doubt many lesbians have given the notion of transitioning any thought whatsoever.

[MacShreach]

Well, if they desire it.
Maybe the state should force effeminate guys to transition -- ha ha!
I mean, not all gay guys desire it. If I were to categorize myself, well, I'd say I'm bisexual. I've never had any desire to transition.
Take, say, lesbians. I mean do -- or should -- all lesbians transition???
No. It's absurd, silly.
I doubt many lesbians have given the notion of transitioning any thought whatsoever.
I wouldn't joke--that is EXACTLY what happens in Iran

http://www.gaystarnews.com/article/iran-performed-over-1000-gender-reassignment-operations-four-years041212

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7259057.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7259057.stm)

[Prospero]

Too true....

[Rabbiteyes]

I wouldn't joke--that is EXACTLY what happens in Iran

http://www.gaystarnews.com/article/iran-performed-over-1000-gender-reassignment-operations-four-years041212

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7259057.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7259057.stm)

That is so depressing ~_~

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-z0CSu8VGF0o/UU-uZdrvn4I/AAAAAAAAUpA/sNvQREr-31A/s1600/sad-panda.jpg

[handsumjack]

Not for me, sometimes I like to fuck/suck and everything a hard MAN

[RallyCola]

if all gay guys transitioned, fag hags everywhere would be depressed so...in an effort to keep these queen caddies alive and well...gay men should NOT transition. only males who identify women should transition.