Male student gang raped by muslim youth

[natina]

Male student gang raped by muslim youth

Belgian university warns against cross-dressing after male student gang-raped


The Brussels Institute of Higher Education University has asked students not to cross-dress after a male student in drag was gang-raped.

http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/europe/121128/belgian-university-cross-dressing-male-student-raped

http://divine-assass1n.livejournal.com/76627.html

Male student gang raped by muslim youth

Male student gang raped by muslim youth for cross-dressing because of initiation ritual. University's reaction: 'students shouldn't cross-dress anymore bacause it might provoke certain groups'

http://www.deredactie.be/cm/vrtnieuws.english/news/121126_HUB_drag

http://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/comments/13xe9k/male_student_gang_raped_by_muslim_youth_for/

Êîììåíòàðèè íà reddit äîñòàâëÿþò:

"I'm having a hard time wrapping my brain around this. They are angry that he's cross dressing, i.e. "gay", so they rape him, which is pretty "gay"."

" It's kinda the equivalent of a vegetarian violently killing and eating an entire cow in protest."


"And then they maintained erections as they ass fucked another dude until they shot their hot jizz in his butthole all the while thinking, "Man, we're really teaching this fag a lesson with all this man on man sex in his butthole with our hard dicks....in his butthole...with our dicks..... in his butthole."
Seems perfectly reasonable. Nothing to see here. Move along."

[Jericho]

Male student gang raped by Muslim youth

Male student gang raped by Muslim youth for cross-dressing because of initiation ritual.Hmmmm...Slightly misleading...As usual. :shrug



The warning follows an attack last month, when a male student wearing drag as part of his initiation into a fraternity was beaten and robbed by a group of young men.


Then they dragged him to a deserted parking lot, where two of them raped him.


A 15-year-old and a 17-year-old are currently in custody, FlandersNews said.


No mention of Muslim in the original article!

[bluesoul]

they should've banned rape instead of cross-dressing

[Prospero]

Natina... there is NO mention of Muslims in the original article, only in the piece of anti-Muslim shit stirring posted in response to it. You are further inciting hate by reproducing this.

The incident is horrible, but it is wrong to represent it as a crime by muslim youth."

My inclination is to delete this thread... but what do others think including Seanchai?

[MHarrigan82]

Is
Natina... there is NO mention of Muslims in the original article, only in the piece of anti-Muslim shit stirring posted in response to it. You are further inciting hate by reproducing this.

The incident is horrible, but it is wrong to represent it as a crime by muslim youth."

My inclination is to delete this thread... but what do others think including Seanchai?

Natina stop making shit up. The article did not mention Muslims.

[robertlouis]

Natina... there is NO mention of Muslims in the original article, only in the piece of anti-Muslim shit stirring posted in response to it. You are further inciting hate by reproducing this.

The incident is horrible, but it is wrong to represent it as a crime by muslim youth."

My inclination is to delete this thread... but what do others think including Seanchai?

I agree with you, Prospero. It's a horrible crime by any standard and therefore worth reporting here because of the attack on a male crossdresser, but attaching it to Muslims is inflammatory and entirely unnecessary; as several of us have noted, it doesn't need any speculative embellishment.

[JenniferParisHusband]

Natina... there is NO mention of Muslims in the original article, only in the piece of anti-Muslim shit stirring posted in response to it. You are further inciting hate by reproducing this.

The incident is horrible, but it is wrong to represent it as a crime by muslim youth."

My inclination is to delete this thread... but what do others think including Seanchai?

Delete the fuck out of it! My feeling about HA was always that this should be more of a place of coming together, not tearing apart.

[giovanni_hotel]

The story is less interesting without the Muslim angle.
Too bad. I was going to launch into a diatribe about how Muslims have sexual hangups because of their religious orthodoxy.

[yodajazz]

The story is less interesting without the Muslim angle.
Too bad. I was going to launch into a diatribe about how Muslims have sexual hangups because of their religious orthodoxy.

I know that I, and others feel that some of the Muslim male political aggression is due to being raised with not enough female social contacts.

[Prospero]

Delete the fuck out of it! My feeling about HA was always that this should be more of a place of coming together, not tearing apart.

What does this response mean? A place of coming together Does Natina's stupid post represent coming together? I think it represents the sort of polarised hatefulness that drive us all apart. Please be less cryptic if you want to argue.

Yes I agree this is an important story in its own right without the hate posting attached.

And yes I agree there is a place to debate the sexually suppressed feeling of Muslims males and their attitudes to gay and transgendered people. But not on the coat tails of a piece of inflammatory hate postings.

[JenniferParisHusband]

What does this response mean? A place of coming together Does Natina's stupid post represent coming together? I think it represents the sort of polarised hatefulness that drive us all apart. Please be less cryptic if you want to argue.

Nothing cryptic about it. You said "My inclination is to delete this thread."

I agree completely, there's no need to have mindless hate on here. My vote, delete the thread.

[Prospero]

Sorry you see I totally misunderstood your post. I thought you were saying don't delete. lol

[tragicomedy]

I agree with you, Prospero. It's a horrible crime by any standard and therefore worth reporting here because of the attack on a male crossdresser, but attaching it to Muslims is inflammatory and entirely unnecessary; as several of us have noted, it doesn't need any speculative embellishment.

Why shouldn't theu attach it to Muslims? Go to a country wuth a large Muslim pop and you will see this behavior is common. It spread to many non-arab countries through Muslim.conquest.

[Stavros]

Why shouldn't theu attach it to Muslims? Go to a country wuth a large Muslim pop and you will see this behavior is common. It spread to many non-arab countries through Muslim.conquest.

You mean, cross-dressing young men are common in countries 'wuth a large Muslim pop'??

[Jericho]

Why shouldn't theu attach it to Muslims? Go to a country wuth a large Muslim pop and you will see this behavior is common. It spread to many non-arab countries through Muslim.conquest.

Hmmm, how can i put this, ah, yeah....You are a fucking idiot, please leave my internet! :ignore:

[tragicomedy]

I can't believe how willfully ignorant some people can be. Specifically those who want to shut the thread down for political correctness sake. Would you do the same if it was clear that Christian Europeans did this? Of course not. Translations on the web state that the offenders were the children of North African immigranta almost all.of.whom are Morrocan. Gangrape of gays and non-Muslims is common and.it.is.not.unheard of.in Europe. You guys need to wake.up because you are enabling these people.

[tragicomedy]

You mean, cross-dressing young men are common in countries 'wuth a large Muslim pop'??

No, the group rape of sexual minorities and non-Muslims.

[Jericho]

It's no good, i can't leave this!


Why shouldn't theu attach it to Muslims

Because there was no mention of any religion in the original article
Fuck it, if we're taking a shot in the dark, lets pin it on the Buddhists!


Go to a country wuth a large Muslim pop and you will see this behavior is common. It spread to many non-arab countries through Muslim.conquest.

I must have been asleep and missed that particular conflict.
The great Muslim victory over the Belgians.

That'll teach those fukkin beer swilling chocolate noshers! :shrug

[tragicomedy]

Hmmm, how can i put this, ah, yeah....You are a fucking idiot, please leave my internet! :ignore:

No. You are the idiot and a person so wedded to ideology that you would shut down discussion of rape and groups that are more.willing to publicly sanction.it. You folks should be ashamed of yourselves for enabling people who show no respect for Western.countries. Your cowardice is disgusting.

[tragicomedy]

It's no good, i can't leave this!



Because there was no mention of any religion in the original article
Fuck it, if we're taking a shot in the dark, lets pin it on the Buddhists!



I must have been asleep and missed that particular conflict.
The great Muslim victory over the Belgians.

That'll teach those fukkin beer swilling chocolate noshers! :shrug

Fool. Take a look at the youth population of Belgium and what % is Muslim. The rapists,.were teenagers.of.North African origin. If.you dont want to.face the truth, fine. But you are not corrrect in trying to stop.others from talking.about it.

[Jericho]

I can't believe how willfully ignorant some people can be.

You've got that right...by the bucket load!


Specifically those who want to shut the thread down for political correctness sake.

You don't know me, do you!



Translations on the web state that the offenders were the children of North African immigranta almost all.of.whom are Morrocan.

Links?



Gangrape of gays and non-Muslims is common and.it.is.not.unheard of.in Europe. You guys need to wake.up because you are enabling these people.


Wow, thank you for the education.
I didn't realize only Muslims were responsible for gang-rape....And it only happened in Europe.

I feel so enlightened...burn those fukkin ragheads!

[Prospero]

Tragicomedy - please post the links and original journalism you refer to which shows that the attackers were Muslim.

[Jericho]

Fool.

Idiot! :shrug



Take a look at the youth population of Belgium and what % is Muslim. The rapists,.were teenagers.of.North African origin. If.you dont want to.face the truth, fine. But you are not corrrect in trying to stop.others from talking.about it.

On the contrary, old chap, I'm not trying to halt discussion.
2nd time of asking, provide links to back up your statements...Otherwise, see above. :shrug

[Prospero]

Out of curiosity I just googled this story... and post a grab of what I found. Note that the sites are such things as Christian defence league, top conservatives, southwestnationalists,whitesister.com and the like. Pretty much all of them very reiable and unbiased sources!!!!!

So come on tragicomedy let's see a reputable sources for your inflammatory and ill informed remarks?

[Prospero]

There are several more pages like that. NONE from a recognised or reputable news source. All from hate groups.

[Jericho]

Tragicomedy - please post the links and original journalism you refer to which shows that the attackers were Muslim.

The thing is Prospero, even if he can provide links (which i doubt), i don't care.

Do we need to know the religion of these two vile pieces of shit?
Is being raped by two Muslims worse than being raped by two Christians?

When are these fucking morons going to learn.
Islamism is a peaceful religion...Just like Christianity! :whistle:

[cdgirl-tr]

Why shouldn't theu attach it to Muslims? Go to a country wuth a large Muslim pop and you will see this behavior is common. It spread to many non-arab countries through Muslim.conquest.

You are just an asshole.I'm from Turkey and there is alot of TS/CD,maybe majority of peoples not tolerant about they but a gang rape not a common behavior.

[Prospero]

You are i are, largely in agreement, Jericho.
But Islamism is not islam... just a little tweak. It's a political idea derived from the faith.
This is not the thread for a detailed discussion of whether islam is, in itself, a religion of peace. I'm not so sure it can be described quite so simply.
But you are correct - the religious identity of the rapists here really is irrelevent.

And tragicomedy is clearly an ignorant and deeply ill informed person.

[Jericho]

This is not the thread for a detailed discussion of whether islam is, in itself, a religion of peace.

Whoosh! :tongue:

[trish]

None of the articles mention that the teens were shot through and through with so much testosterone they could barely keep their pants on under normal conditions, let alone when face to ass with a prancing nubile boy in female attire. Religion is irrelevant here. Nationality is irrelevant. Their majors in college...you guessed it...irrelevant. Biology is the culprit. Every living male creature on Earth needs to be put in its place. There are too many rampant dicks and too many oceans of seeds spilled into napkins. Too many lions raping lionesses. Too many badgers raping badgeresses. Too many spores exploded into the open air and way too much fucking pollen. I can’t even go outside without some living thing’s sexual emissions making me sneeze. It’s time we stop blaming ancient dead books, dull dry prophets and saviors for man’s inability to control himself. We got to get a hold on our dicks. Throttle them. Control them. Crack down. Use the whip and lock them in pink little plastic cages.

[Prospero]

But you might be safer in France, Trish. It was reported this week that records indicate that the sperm count is declining among all Frenchmen.

I agree that all the things you list are irrelevent which is why I was so angry that this act was used as another excuse to accuse an already victimised group of crime.

[trish]

But you might be safer in France, Trish. It was reported this week that records indicate that the sperm count is declining among all Frenchmen.

I agree that all the things you list are irrelevent which is why I was so angry that this act was used as another excuse to accuse an already victimised group of crime.

Which is basically the motivation for my response as well. Rape is a problem everywhere ( I mean of course the illegitimate kind), within every group, sect, profession and nation; from Catholic priests to serial stalkers. It is driven by biology not belief, though rational thought might be a more civilizing check on difficult to control desires than religious doctrine of any kind.

[muh_muh]

being someone living in a european country with what may be the largest turkish population outside of trukey having learned the knowledge that apparently poor upstanding atheists like me are gang raped left and right by muslims im now terrified about the sanctity of my bunghole


None of the articles mention that the teens were shot through and through with so much testosterone they could barely keep their pants on under normal conditions, let alone when face to ass with a prancing nubile boy in female attire. Religion is irrelevant here. Nationality is irrelevant. Their majors in college...you guessed it...irrelevant. Biology is the culprit. Every living male creature on Earth needs to be put in its place. There are too many rampant dicks and too many oceans of seeds spilled into napkins. Too many lions raping lionesses. Too many badgers raping badgeresses. Too many spores exploded into the open air and way too much fucking pollen. I can’t even go outside without some living thing’s sexual emissions making me sneeze. It’s time we stop blaming ancient dead books, dull dry prophets and saviors for man’s inability to control himself. We got to get a hold on our dicks. Throttle them. Control them. Crack down. Use the whip and lock them in pink little plastic cages.

so basically every man should undergo srs?

[trish]

...so basically every man should undergo srs?Well it's a thought, but as far as the will to rape is concerned, I'm in agreement with Dr. Malcolm who in Jurassic Park says, "Nature will find a way."


being someone living in a european country with what may be the largest turkish population outside of trukey having learned the knowledge that apparently poor upstanding atheists like me are gang raped left and right by muslims im now terrified about the sanctity of my bunghole
By the way, I'm not so sure bungholes can be sacred? Is the Buddha's bunghole sacred? Does the raping of a sacred bunghole count as defilement of a religious shrine?

[Stavros]

I don't see rape as a sexual act, it is an act of violence, so where the biology comes in I don't know. If it were true that young men are the world's greatest hazard, then things would be worse than they are, because in fact a lot of young men are well behaved most of the time and it is only a minority who go off the rails and often that is because of drink or drugs or both, so maybe its chemical rather than biological. Peer pressure also may play a part in group activities, rape is intended to humuliate, to damage, and thus is more closely connected to power rather than to sexual pleasure, although we must reserve a niche for the few who can only achieve a climax through the infliction of pain on others. But I once watched a young man being 'tortured' with hot wax in a nightclub in New York, he was naked but never once got hard, and he certainly didn't come, yet looked glowing after the event. Was it sexual? I have no idea. The barmaid who inflicted the punishment (he was standing on a narrow beam with his wrists tied to a bar overhead -had he slipped he would have snapped both of the wrists)- was a blonde 20-something who looked like she stepped out of a Playboy centrefold and was one of the most gorgeous women I have ever laid eyes on. Pain and sexual pleasure seems to be a psychological problem, so I don't see it as biological either. Later I watched two lesbians -one was urinating on the other; when they came over and chatted we ended up talking about Queen Elizabeth. Funny old world, innit?

[tragicomedy]

I'm back from work (for a little while) so I'll start out by prefacing about Muslim violence on non-Muslims in Europe.

I witnessed an attack on a group of senior citizens by Turkish and Moroccan youth last time I was in Europe.

http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/the_dutch_confront_the_racial_divide_too_few_dared _speak_of/

Here's another incident that happened almost simultaneously in Holland where the media tried to keep the ethno-religious component under wraps.

Now, why oh why do Euro multiculturalists want to play favorites??

But hey, let's get back to that rape in Belgium.

http://www.gva.be/nieuws/binnenland/aid1286276/hub-ontkent-verkleedverbod-na-verkrachting-student.aspx

"allochtoon"

means children of non-Western immigrants but it is actually used to refer to the Muslim north African/Moroccan and Turkish immigrant children. That was mentioned in the post as other translations by English speaking Belgians have noted.

Let's see what we can find for and against the notion that it was committed by Muslims. We learn that the person was not transgender but was told to dress in Drag for a fraternity initiation test. He was forced to perform oral sex and was sodomized with an object. He was also robbed and beaten.


We have a media that wants to cut out the point about a community that is not inclined to curb it's youth which has shown little respect for non-Muslims.

http://www.demorgen.be/dm/nl/2461/Opinie/article/detail/1540217/2012/11/27/Provocerend-gedrag-pardon.dhtml

http://www.knack.be/opinie/columns/eddy-eerdekens/verkleedverbod-is-overwinning-van-de-onverdraagzaamheid-straf-het-slachtoffer/opinie-4000213764068.htm

http://www.knack.be/opinie/columns/anthony-godfroid/geen-verkleedpartijen-meer-in-brussel-buig-het-hoofd-sluit-de-ogen-en-word-wakker-in-een-ander-land/opinie-4000214128950.htm

http://seks.blog.nl/aktua/2012/11/26/travestieverbod-na-verkrachting-jongeman-door-allochtonen

[tragicomedy]

You are just an asshole.I'm from Turkey and there is alot of TS/CD,maybe majority of peoples not tolerant about they but a gang rape not a common behavior.

I'm an asshole for telling the truth about Muslim on non-Muslim violence?

Turkey is one of the most secular and Westernized Muslim majority countries and it's still got plenty of problems for non-Muslims.

[cdgirl-tr]

I'm an asshole for telling the truth about Muslim on non-Muslim violence?

Turkey is one of the most secular and Westernized Muslim majority countries and it's still got plenty of problems for non-Muslims.


You are an asshole because you talking about something which is you dont know anything,did you live in Turkey ?What is the problem for non-Muslims ?

[trish]

If rape were a purely violent act it wouldn't involve penises, beer bottles or baseball bats used as dildoes. Rape is a violent act born of sexual frustration and antiquated gender codes of ownership.
Muslim on non-Muslim violence has little to do with it. Christian on little boy violence has little to do with it. Frustration and male dominance has much more relevance. Soldiers rape for sexual release and to usurp the ownership of the raped women. If it was just about ownership it would be more efficient to simply put the women in irons and sell them. If it was just about violence, it'd be easier to just beat them. Rape has an essential and undeniable sexual ( and probably reproductive...except in cases where it misfires and a seal tries to have sex with an penguin )component.

[tragicomedy]

You are an asshole because you talking about something which is you dont know anything,did you live in Turkey ?What is the problem for non-Muslims ?

What does that make you to curse me instead of making an argument in defense of Islam. Idf you want to make this about Turkey instead of about Muslim immigrants attacking and intimidating non-Muslims we can go there AND I won't have to go back to the Armenian genocide.

[tragicomedy]

If rape were a purely violent act it wouldn't involve penises, beer bottles or baseball bats used as dildoes. Rape is a violent act born of sexual frustration and antiquated gender codes of ownership.
Muslim on non-Muslim violence has little to do with it. Christian on little boy violence has little to do with it. Frustration and male dominance has much more relevance. Soldiers rape for sexual release and to usurp the ownership of the raped women. If it was just about ownership it would be more efficient to simply put the women in irons and sell them. If it was just about violence, it'd be easier to just beat them. Rape has an essential and undeniable sexual ( and probably reproductive...except in cases where it misfires and a seal tries to have sex with an penguin )component.

It isnt about frustration.but it is about male dominance. We see this in Europe because men.have tiers of dominance. This.has been repressed.in Western civilization in the last 80 years and also.in Christian and now progressive secular appeals to be humane. That has not happpened in Muslim civilization yet and Muslim immmigrants.carry that with them to Europe. If the Left doesn't force Muslims to confront it then things willl get worse not.better.

[trish]

Like I said, if it were only about dominance there'd be no need to involves penises.

[tragicomedy]

Like I said, if it were only about dominance there'd be no need to involves penises.

You think gangrapists are going to follow escalation of force? They ask whether its a breach of etiquette to bring a penis to a knife fight? go ahead and expand on your post.

[trish]

I see no need to expand on the obvious. Rape by definition is sexual assault.

[Stavros]

If rape were a purely violent act it wouldn't involve penises, beer bottles or baseball bats used as dildoes. Rape is a violent act born of sexual frustration and antiquated gender codes of ownership.


Ok but I think there are times when sexual frustration is not the driving force, but the need to degarade, to humiliate, to damage and this is political, psychological -so all I am saying is I was probably wrong to characterise all rape as being purely violent, but I think a lot of it is.

[hippifried]

None of the articles mention that the teens were shot through and through with so much testosterone they could barely keep their pants on under normal conditions, let alone when face to ass with a prancing nubile boy in female attire. Religion is irrelevant here. Nationality is irrelevant. Their majors in college...you guessed it...irrelevant. Biology is the culprit. Every living male creature on Earth needs to be put in its place. There are too many rampant dicks and too many oceans of seeds spilled into napkins. Too many lions raping lionesses. Too many badgers raping badgeresses. Too many spores exploded into the open air and way too much fucking pollen. I can’t even go outside without some living thing’s sexual emissions making me sneeze. It’s time we stop blaming ancient dead books, dull dry prophets and saviors for man’s inability to control himself. We got to get a hold on our dicks. Throttle them. Control them. Crack down. Use the whip and lock them in pink little plastic cages.Oh. Finally got that basement dungeon finished?

I think everybody's looking at this all wrong. Weren't these teenagers? I seriously doubt that the initial attack had anything to do with the fact that the victim was in drag. These morons thought they were going to get some pussy. The idea that this was Muslims attacking the transgendered is ludicrous. From what I've gathered, none of them actually fucked the dude. (For some odd reason, a guy getting his dick sucked by another guy can still call "no homo") They were just teenage gangsters out "wilding". Whatever their original intent was overridden by circumstance. Now this doesn't excuse their behavior or make them any less the assholes they are, but i'm seeing way too much speculation that projects agenda driven premeditation on jerks who don't think at all.

[tragicomedy]

Oh. Finally got that basement dungeon finished?

I think everybody's looking at this all wrong. Weren't these teenagers? I seriously doubt that the initial attack had anything to do with the fact that the victim was in drag. These morons thought they were going to get some pussy. The idea that this was Muslims attacking the transgendered is ludicrous. From what I've gathered, none of them actually fucked the dude. (For some odd reason, a guy getting his dick sucked by another guy can still call "no homo") They were just teenage gangsters out "wilding". Whatever their original intent was overridden by circumstance. Now this doesn't excuse their behavior or make them any less the assholes they are, but i'm seeing way too much speculation that projects agenda driven premeditation on jerks who don't think at all.

The guy wax dressed up for a fraternity party I doubt they thought they were going to get some.pussy. I think you are wrong in saying that it was basically "just" oral as the repots said he was sodomized with a foreign object.

[Jericho]

We see this in Europe because men.have tiers of dominance. This.has been repressed.in Western civilization in the last 80 years and also.in Christian and now progressive secular appeals to be humane. That has not happpened in Muslim civilization yet and Muslim immmigrants.carry that with them to Europe. If the Left doesn't force Muslims to confront it then things willl get worse not.better.

Yah, those European Muslims get everywhere....

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/22/us/four-sentenced-in-gang-rape-of-11-year-old-texas-girl.html
http://www.nytimes.com/1998/05/01/us/gang-rape-of-three-girls-leaves-fresno-shaken-and-questioning.html
http://www.nytimes.com/1990/04/09/nyregion/man-charged-in-gang-rape-of-a-mute-brooklyn-woman.html
http://www.nytimes.com/1983/04/02/us/gang-rape-stuns-old-boston-section.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/04/nyregion/04trenton.html


Clean up your own backyard before you talk about cleaning up ours.

[Prospero]

Tragicomedy - have you located the reputable news source which identifies the attackers as Muslims. Or is your info just based on those right wing blogs?

[tragicomedy]

Tragicomedy - have you located the reputable news source which identifies the attackers as Muslims. Or is your info just based on those right wing blogs?

Did you follow the links in my last post?

[Jericho]

Did you follow the links in my last post?

I did.
No mention specifically of Muslim, tho I'm perfectly willing to believe they were.

And following on from your links, perhaps you missed the part about making generalizations?

[tragicomedy]

I did.
No mention specifically of Muslim, tho I'm perfectly willing to believe they were.

And following on from your links, perhaps you missed the part about making generalizations?

Almost all North African or Turkish immigrants to Belgium are Muslim. The Jewish or Armenian Turkish population has had almost NO reports of crime and definitely not rape of the indigenous population, of which there are many by Muslims on non-Muslims. I cannot.do much for people like you who willl deny even what should be plain as day to suit ideology and.agenda.

[Jericho]

I cannot.do much for people like you

Hooray...Thankfully...We finally agree on something! :shrug

[Jericho]

Almost all North African or Turkish immigrants to Belgium are Muslim. The Jewish or Armenian Turkish population has had almost NO reports of crime and definitely not rape of the indigenous population, of which there are many by Muslims on non-Muslims.

And...As you seem to have the statistics to hand.
Just for a bit of balance, how much crime has been committed against the immigrant community?

A country by country breakdown would be nice...but not strictly necessary. :shrug

[robertlouis]

While there seems to be just one lone voice in favour of the OP's assertions, it's a shame nevertheless that the thread wasn't deleted.

As with so many threads on HA,it has deteriorated into cat-calling from entrenched opposing positions, when no facts whatsoever have been satisfactorily established, and it is instead being used as yet another opportunity for people to air their prejudices at great and tiresome length.

Sadly the rules don't include a provision for deleting a thread because it's a waste of everyone's time. Oh well.......

[tragicomedy]

While there seems to be just one lone voice in favour of the OP's assertions, it's a shame nevertheless that the thread wasn't deleted.

As with so many threads on HA,it has deteriorated into cat-calling from entrenched opposing positions, when no facts whatsoever have been satisfactorily established, and it is instead being used as yet another opportunity for people to air their prejudices at great and tiresome length.

Sadly the rules don't include a provision for deleting a thread because it's a waste of everyone's time. Oh well....... Why delete? Both "sides" have offered up information and opinion on the subject as well.as links from local news. Deleting it is like putting it down the memory hole because it doesnt jive with a politically correct narrative. We can disagree on this subject and get along on different threads. This tactic.that certain group are known for of stifling inconvenient speech is disgusting.

[broncofan]

Tragicomedy,
One gets the feeling that you don't care about the crime of rape qua rape. You don't care about victims of rape nor about preventing rape (as a general matter though I know part of your act is pretending you do).

I don't really understand the use of taking a brutal crime and turning it into a broader message of bigotry. The crime speaks for itself. Your analysis on the other hand is a broad assault on a global community having nothing to do with it. If you had a point you haven't made it in six pages of bullshit.

[Ben]

This from the Christian Defense League. Albeit they're an ultra right-wing group. (Problem with the Internet: anyone can post anything.
It should be a good and reliable source.)

Belgium: Now Muslim “Youths” are Gang Raping males in Drag…

http://christiandefenceleauge.wordpress.com/2012/11/28/belgium-now-muslim-youths-are-gang-raping-males-in-drag/

[trish]

Why is it wrong to delete misrepresentations, misinterpretations and misinformation that is fabricated solely to spread bigotry and further political and religious causes? The only reason I can see for keeping this thread around it also exposes the bigots and counters their lies.

[tragicomedy]

Tragicomedy,
One gets the feeling that you don't care about the crime of rape qua rape. You don't care about victims of rape nor about preventing rape (as a general matter though I know part of your act is pretending you do).

I don't really understand the use of taking a brutal crime and turning it into a broader message of bigotry. The crime speaks for itself. Your analysis on the other hand is a broad assault on a global community having nothing to do with it. If you had a point you haven't made it in six pages of bullshit.



I love it when folks like you resort to cursing. Yeah you really are making a point hub? I have actually posted linka from Belgian news.and.what have you done? Nothing but attack.

[tragicomedy]

Why is it wrong to delete misrepresentations, misinterpretations and misinformation that is fabricated solely to spread bigotry and further political and religious causes? The only reason I can see for keeping this thread around it also exposes the bigots and counters their lies.

Counter lies with what? I provided original.belgian links.while others have ofeded.calls to.delete.and foul language. I would like to see the OP pop back.in here.

[tragicomedy]

This from the Christian Defense League. Albeit they're an ultra right-wing group. (Problem with the Internet: anyone can post anything.
It should be a good and reliable source.)

Belgium: Now Muslim “Youths” are Gang Raping males in Drag…

http://christiandefenceleauge.wordpress.com/2012/11/28/belgium-now-muslim-youths-are-gang-raping-males-in-drag/

We don't need the CDL source when we.have others.

[trish]

Counter lies with what? I provided original.belgian links.while others have ofeded.calls to.delete.and foul language. I would like to see the OP pop back.in here.I see you recognized yourself from a nameless description. Very good.

[tragicomedy]

I see you recognized yourself from a nameless description. Very good. Actually your description is wrong as I was defending the OP and the Itopic. You fail again.

[trish]

Then how did you know yourself? LOL

[Stavros]

Counter lies with what? I provided original.belgian links.while others have ofeded.calls to.delete.and foul language. I would like to see the OP pop back.in here.

Neither you nor anyone else has been able to establish that the people arrested for the rape of the HUB student are Muslim. It is also. very. irritating. to keep putting. full stops. in. your. posts. This is not a telegram. STOP.

[iagodelgado]

I remember telegrams. Outside there are wood-burning stoves pumping carbon into the atmosphere. Very nostalgic.

[Prospero]

I have not deleted this thread because I do not want to be accused of censorship - and having just read the past two days worth of postings from this bigot, offering no real substance to his assertions (non european immigrants so it must be a muslim plot!!!) it has been refreshing to see people here challenging and exposing him for what he clearly is.

[Ben]

I have not deleted this thread because I do not want to be accused of censorship - and having just read the past two days worth of postings from this bigot, offering no real substance to his assertions (non european immigrants so it must be a muslim plot!!!) it has been refreshing to see people here challenging and exposing him for what he clearly is.

I'm sure a lot of folks on the radical right would like to censor/expunge this whole website....

[Prospero]

Of curse they would Ben. The American people managed to stem the floodtide of political bigotry at the election this time around. Fingers crossed for the future. Hatred is all too well and alive in the world. In the UK we've recently seen the absurd decision to ban women from becoming Bishops in the church of England, and a battle royal is taking shape over gay marriage.

When I remarked about deleting this thread i was talking about the racist elements encoded in the original post (based ONLY on radical right websites) and the stream of postings since by one individual But its turned into a decent debate.

[cdgirl-tr]

What does that make you to curse me instead of making an argument in defense of Islam. Idf you want to make this about Turkey instead of about Muslim immigrants attacking and intimidating non-Muslims we can go there AND I won't have to go back to the Armenian genocide.

Clearly you are just an hater,you didnt know anything you just believe,if you can introduce us your academical disquisition about Armenian genocide,there is no problem for me.

[Stavros]

Clearly you are just an hater,you didnt know anything you just believe,if you can introduce us your academical disquisition about Armenian genocide,there is no problem for me.

And not least because Turks were not the only people involved -the Germans were involved, the Kurds in some areas -and anyway before 1923 how many people who became Turks were ethnically Turkish? Anatolia was a melting pot of Empire, immigrants had been arriving from the lost colonies of eastern Europe for years, creating competition for land, and so on...just this weekend there was yet another programme on the radio about Lawrence of Arabia (because the film is 50 years old but any old excuse will do) and every time it mentioned the war against 'the Turks' I didnt know whether to laugh or cry -who do people think were in the Ottoman armed forces in the First World War? Not a single Arab? Not one Jew, Kurd, Armenian, Turk, Turcoman, Circassian, Chechen, Greek Orthodox? It was an Empire, just as the majority of the troops who engaged the Ottoman forces in Mesopotamia were Indian -indeed, when the British created Iraq as a League of Nations Mandate in 1921, its currency was the Indian Rupee until the Dinar was introduced a few years later.

Lawrence, it seems to me, is a hero to English schoolboys and armchair historians because his story is 'exciting' even 'successful' when so much of the First World War is about Lions led by Donkeys- Lawrence and Allenby may be the most revered officers of the War, which is ironic given the mess they left behind...

[tragicomedy]

Neither you nor anyone else has been able to establish that the people arrested for the rape of the HUB student are Muslim. It is also. very. irritating. to keep putting. full stops. in. your. posts. This is not a telegram. STOP.
Did you read the links? The Belgian blogs are talking about it as a given that they are indeed the children of Moroccan and Turkish immigrants, confirmed after a Belgian reporter broke protocol and identified them as such. You folks ignore that and the lesser of your ilk use curse words and atttacks. I am glad that folks here have pullled back from censorship and have allowed a thread about an inconvenient news story to live.

[tragicomedy]

Of curse they would Ben. The American people managed to stem the floodtide of political bigotry at the election this time around. Fingers crossed for the future. Hatred is all too well and alive in the world. In the UK we've recently seen the absurd decision to ban women from becoming Bishops in the church of England, and a battle royal is taking shape over gay marriage.

When I remarked about deleting this thread i was talking about the racist elements encoded in the original post (based ONLY on radical right websites) and the stream of postings since by one individual But its turned into a decent debate.

Is the radical left under the same quarantine? It seems in Europe that the rad left is given liberties that the right can only dream of. Even though previous incarnations of both have hands soaked in blood. People who apppoint themselves the boss of speech annoy me. They like to squeeze out the Left, Right and populists.

[tragicomedy]

Clearly you are just an hater,you didnt know anything you just believe,if you can introduce us your academical disquisition about Armenian genocide,there is no problem for me.

This typifies your response on the thread. You charge in with your foul language without actually reading. I said I would not have to rely on the Armenian Genocide. Why do that when we have so much to talk about in modern times.

[Prospero]

tragicomedy... so freedom of speech means the freedom to vilify whole groups in the way you do? Hatespeech is good speech is it? Why in every response to the person from Turkey do you eel it necessary to refer to the Armenian genocide as if that is the only thing you know about Turkey? While you're at it why not start banging on about the Ottoman empire? Janissaries and the like? Or perhaps you'd like to refer to the glorious and civilising influence of the Ottoman's at their zenith? To the great Mosque architects like Sinan?

As I see it your vilification of Muslims is emblematic of an obsessive fear transmuting into hatred of islam. Get some education about the religion and then you might be able to make some intelligent contributions to the discussion.

As others have noted even if the attackers WERE Muslim, what does that prove? Do we identity other rapists as Christians or atheists or Hindu or whatever? Do burglars who happen to be Muslim get labelled as such? I don't think so. You jumped into this to support the labelling of these people Muslim because it plays to a false stereotype pedalled by haters - in whose number you are clearly included.

[Stavros]

Did you read the links? The Belgian blogs are talking about it as a given that they are indeed the children of Moroccan and Turkish immigrants, confirmed after a Belgian reporter broke protocol and identified them as such. You folks ignore that and the lesser of your ilk use curse words and atttacks. I am glad that folks here have pullled back from censorship and have allowed a thread about an inconvenient news story to live.

I can quote you blogs which will claim that several well-known British people from the world of politics and music ran a peadophile network from 10 Downing St; that the world is controlled by Lizard people but I forget from which planet they come; that the world will end on the 21st of December 2012.

You have not established as a fact either that the people arrested for the crime are guilty -noone has, as the trial has not taken place, if it does- or that they are Muslim. There are thousands of children of Muslims in the UK who came here from Pakistan, Bangladesh, India or anywhere else or who were born here, who do not practise their faith. Unless you can both prove that those arrested are guilty in advance of any court proceedings -and why would you do that anyway?-and then prove that their actions were derived from their faith then you are just being politically provocative.

There was a time when GI's were loathed in this country because 'they all' had money and were taking our women. Was that true?

[tragicomedy]

tragicomedy... so freedom of speech means the freedom to vilify whole groups in the way you do? Hatespeech is good speech is it? Why in every response to the person from Turkey do you eel it necessary to refer to the Armenian genocide as if that is the only thing you know about Turkey? While you're at it why not start banging on about the Ottoman empire? Janissaries and the like? Or perhaps you'd like to refer to the glorious and civilising influence of the Ottoman's at their zenith? To the great Mosque architects like Sinan?

As I see it your vilification of Muslims is emblematic of an obsessive fear transmuting into hatred of islam. Get some education about the religion and then you might be able to make some intelligent contributions to the discussion.

As others have noted even if the attackers WERE Muslim, what does that prove? Do we identity other rapists as Christians or atheists or Hindu or whatever? Do burglars who happen to be Muslim get labelled as such? I don't think so. You jumped into this to support the labelling of these people Muslim because it plays to a false stereotype pedalled by haters - in whose number you are clearly included.
You are being a reactionary if you think I am vilifying them. Muslims in Europe are the key to stopping this anti-social behavior. How did.the U.S. Stop Klan.terrorism? Infiltration.and prosecution but also exposing and shaming. This tactic is essential to true mainstream social change. You think you are helping them but you are actually just enabling Muslim supremacists within their community.

[tragicomedy]

tragicomedy... so freedom of speech means the freedom to vilify whole groups in the way you do? Hatespeech is good speech is it? Why in every response to the person from Turkey do you eel it necessary to refer to the Armenian genocide as if that is the only thing you know about Turkey? While you're at it why not start banging on about the Ottoman empire? Janissaries and the like? Or perhaps you'd like to refer to the glorious and civilising influence of the Ottoman's at their zenith? To the great Mosque architects like Sinan?

As I see it your vilification of Muslims is emblematic of an obsessive fear transmuting into hatred of islam. Get some education about the religion and then you might be able to make some intelligent contributions to the discussion.

As others have noted even if the attackers WERE Muslim, what does that prove? Do we identity other rapists as Christians or atheists or Hindu or whatever? Do burglars who happen to be Muslim get labelled as such? I don't think so. You jumped into this to support the labelling of these people Muslim because it plays to a false stereotype pedalled by haters - in whose number you are clearly included. You truly are a reactionary. I said I was.NOT going to rely on the Armenian genocide like so.many others do.

[greyman]

<Lawrence, it seems to me, is a hero to English schoolboys and armchair historians because his story is 'exciting' even 'successful' when so much of the First World War is about Lions led by Donkeys- Lawrence and Allenby may be the most revered officers of the War, which is ironic given the mess they left behind...>

In fairness to Lawrence, he knew by 1916 of the Sykes-Picot agreement and that it would be impossible for Britain to honor their promise of self determination to the Arabs in exchange for their help in driving the Ottoman Turks out of what is now Saudi Arabia, Jordan and Syria. Nevertheless he was a commissioned officer in the intelligence service during wartime so he carried out his duties despite the overwhelming sense of guilt it caused.

Great Britain/UK has a lot to answer for in the Middle East.

[Prospero]

And yet you keep mentioning the genocide... every time... when no one else is. What relevance does this have in any way. And as for your references to stopping the "anti social behaviour" I don't see how deepening a smear here, derived from racist websites, about the disgusting behaviour of a couple of young men who may, coincidentally, be Muslim in any way helps anyone - except for affirming stupid prejudices. This is NOT a trait of the Muslim community. It's a trait of aggressive men - of any ethnicity. So stop your smears and you stupid posturing. Admit it. You are a bigot with ignorant prejudices.

[Prospero]

Great Britain/UK has a lot to answer for in the Middle East.

As does the US, France, Italy, Russia ......

[broncofan]

It's strange that someone who has accused an entire religious group of being predisposed to criminal behavior is offended by a few curse words. I also find it peculiar that he goes out of his way to mention how he will not mention the Armenian Genocide and thinks that this literalism will fool those of us here with common sense. You invoked the Armenian Genocide to stigmatize a country and did this probably for the effect it would have on a single Turkish poster.

As Prospero said, people of every background commit rape. You did not establish this rape was committed by Muslims based on ideology or upbringing nor did you establish Muslims are more likely to rape. You provided some links from dubious sources indicating the attackers may have been Muslim. Your conclusions are a symptom of inductive reasoning gone awry. You construct a general proposition from specific examples but make no attempt to establish actual figures or distinguish correlation from causation, things that actual statisticians would do given a body of data. You ignore that evidence which cuts in the opposite direction, emphasize that which supports your conclusions, and fail to even be explicit about your hypothesis. But then again, we expect too much from a racist when we ask for more than sentence fragments and a well-thought out argument.

[tragicomedy]

It's strange that someone who has accused an entire religious group of being predisposed to criminal behavior is offended by a few curse words. I also find it peculiar that he goes out of his way to mention how he will not mention the Armenian Genocide and thinks that this literalism will fool those of us here with common sense. You invoked the Armenian Genocide to stigmatize a country and did this probably for the effect it would have on a single Turkish poster.

As Prospero said, people of every background commit rape. You did not establish this rape was committed by Muslims based on ideology or upbringing nor did you establish Muslims are more likely to rape. You provided some links from dubious sources indicating the attackers may have been Muslim. Your conclusions are a symptom of inductive reasoning gone awry. You construct a general proposition from specific examples but make no attempt to establish actual figures or distinguish correlation from causation, things that actual statisticians would do given a body of data. You ignore that evidence which cuts in the opposite direction, emphasize that which supports your conclusions, and fail to even be explicit about your hypothesis. But then again, we expect too much from a racist when we ask for more than sentence fragments and a well-thought out argument.
What was so dubious about my sources?

[Prospero]

Your sources are the equivalent of quoting from Der Sturmer in the 1930s on the sins of the jews

[tragicomedy]

And yet you keep mentioning the genocide... every time... when no one else is. What relevance does this have in any way. And as for your references to stopping the "anti social behaviour" I don't see how deepening a smear here, derived from racist websites, about the disgusting behaviour of a couple of young men who may, coincidentally, be Muslim in any way helps anyone - except for affirming stupid prejudices. This is NOT a trait of the Muslim community. It's a trait of aggressive men - of any ethnicity. So stop your smears and you stupid posturing. Admit it. You are a bigot with ignorant prejudices.

Actually I am not constantly referring.to that event. I mentioned.it originally in one post to see who actually reads and who is merely a p.c. reactionary. What I have done is caught a few reactionaries flying off at the keyboard without reading. It is good to expose them now. Even then, we can all write frankly and listen to.those we disagree with. Now that I know the motives of everyone here I'll say that I do not think this deep seeded ned to dominate the "other" is unique to Muslims, it is a universal phenomenon in human history. Trying to deny the existence of such a phenomenon and keeping it out of the English language media is wrong.

[tragicomedy]

Your sources are the equivalent of quoting from Der Sturmer in the 1930s on the sins of the jews

Which sources are equivalent to Der Sturmer? I would like you to paste the link.

[Prospero]

the white supremacist blogs....

[tragicomedy]

the white supremacist blogs....

Link them. You asked me for specifics. Which White Supremacist blogs?

[thombergeron]

You are being a reactionary if you think I am vilifying them. Muslims in Europe are the key to stopping this anti-social behavior. How did.the U.S. Stop Klan.terrorism? Infiltration.and prosecution but also exposing and shaming. This tactic is essential to true mainstream social change. You think you are helping them but you are actually just enabling Muslim supremacists within their community.

Apologies to Prospero for reviving a deservedly dying thread, but by your logic, you would have to conclude that Christians in Europe are key to stopping white supremacist terrorists like Anders Breivik. To the best of my knowledge, no Muslims in Europe have gunned down 77 people, so clearly European chauvanistic violence is exclusively a problem for white Christians to solve.

More to the point, however, if I were to tell you that I, a non-Christian, was gangraped at 11 on a Boy Scout campout by 5 older boys who came from Mormon families, would you then conclude that Christianity is a brutal and primitive religion and that its adherents are motivated by a need to dominate "the other"?

The fundamental error that you are committing is to assume that any given culture or subculture has a monopoly on chaunvanism and violence. The offenders in the Belgian story may or may not be Muslim, but they are, quite obvioulsy, not the first teenagers to brutalize another child. Given that unassailable fact, your obsession with the role of Islam in this story reveals you as just another bigot.

[broncofan]

What I have done is caught a few reactionaries flying off at the keyboard without reading.
Just a small point. You were not catching people who did not read. We were aware of the fact that you said you were not mentioning it, but that by doing so you were mentioning it. It was gratuitous, mean-spirited, and irrelevant to the conversation.

I'm not going to mention your mother's alleged whoring.(let's see who actually reads and who's just a reactionary blowhard with a whore for a mother that we're not going to mention).

[broncofan]

Apologies to Prospero for reviving a deservedly dying thread, but by your logic, you would have to conclude that Christians in Europe are key to stopping white supremacist terrorists like Anders Breivik. To the best of my knowledge, no Muslims in Europe have gunned down 77 people, so clearly European chauvanistic violence is exclusively a problem for white Christians to solve.

More to the point, however, if I were to tell you that I, a non-Christian, was gangraped at 11 on a Boy Scout campout by 5 older boys who came from Mormon families, would you then conclude that Christianity is a brutal and primitive religion and that its adherents are motivated by a need to dominate "the other"?

The fundamental error that you are committing is to assume that any given culture or subculture has a monopoly on chaunvanism and violence. The offenders in the Belgian story may or may not be Muslim, but they are, quite obvioulsy, not the first teenagers to brutalize another child. Given that unassailable fact, your obsession with the role of Islam in this story reveals you as just another bigot.
I thought your post was well-put. I did not want to bump it off the main page by posting my little barb.

[tragicomedy]

I thought your post was well-put. I did not want to bump it off the main page by posting my little barb.

Well put except being wrong again. I said gangrape as an intimidation tactic is a universal phenomenon. Muslims are not unique in that regard. What is unique is a majority, indigenous population terrified to address it. Feminists from the Muslim population and child services personnel from the non-Muslim population are not shy to discuss it.

[Prospero]

Tragicomedy - I admit that I made a small error in saying you posted links to white supremacist links. But you clearly rely on these source for your information. Your position has slithered from an crude and blanket attack on the Muslim populations of Europe (I quote: "Why shouldn't theu attach it to Muslims? Go to a country wuth a large Muslim pop and you will see this behavior is common. It spread to many non-arab countries through Muslim.conquest." "Gangrape of gays and non-Muslims is common and.it.is.not.unheard of.in Europe. You guys need to wake.up because you are enabling these people." )
to a sort of back pedalling attempt to put your racism into a context of hating force. The only legitimate news sources you have offered were Flemish news reports which attribute the attack to immigrants - never once mentioning Muslims. As i pointed out i an earlier post the only sources on the web I an find which define this as an attack by Muslims were on right wing sites. Now again please offer some serious evidence of your wide attack on the sexual criminality you lay at the door of Muslims?

And regarding the genocide as others have pointed out YOU were the only person to raise it by saying you were not going to raise it. A grubby smear tactic against the Turkish person who posted.

Please also explain what you mean in labelling those who disagree with you as reactionary?

And finally please explain the correlation you see between the tenets of Muslim religious belief and sexual criminality?

[tragicomedy]

Tragicomedy - I admit that I made a small error in saying you posted links to white supremacist links. But you clearly rely on these source for your information. Your position has slithered from an crude and blanket attack on the Muslim populations of Europe (I quote: "Why shouldn't theu attach it to Muslims? Go to a country wuth a large Muslim pop and you will see this behavior is common. It spread to many non-arab countries through Muslim.conquest." "Gangrape of gays and non-Muslims is common and.it.is.not.unheard of.in Europe. You guys need to wake.up because you are enabling these people." )
to a sort of back pedalling attempt to put your racism into a context of hating force. The only legitimate news sources you have offered were Flemish news reports which attribute the attack to immigrants - never once mentioning Muslims. As i pointed out i an earlier post the only sources on the web I an find which define this as an attack by Muslims were on right wing sites. Now again please offer some serious evidence of your wide attack on the sexual criminality you lay at the door of Muslims?

And regarding the genocide as others have pointed out YOU were the only person to raise it by saying you were not going to raise it. A grubby smear tactic against the Turkish person who posted.

Please also explain what you mean in labelling those who disagree with you as reactionary?

And finally please explain the correlation you see between the tenets of Muslim religious belief and sexual criminality?

You made a HUGE error which enabled others to slander me. How can you then try to riff on my argument when you made such a blunder? Yes you and the others are reactionaries as you went directly into attack mode when you heard any deviation from political correctness. Ironically, Belgian sources haven't been shy in tackling the ethno-religious aspect to youth and violent crime in their.own.country the way English language media has been. This from the very people wanting to delete threads-that they haven't even taken time to.read. Prospero, you get credit for t least asking for sources and.for later apologizing but that only makes you the best of the reactionaries. I apologize for not answering the rest of your post but I am at work.and.simply.don't have the time to give you a worthy reply.

[Stavros]

You made a HUGE error which enabled others to slander me. How can you then try to riff on my argument when you made such a blunder? Yes you and the others are reactionaries as you went directly into attack mode when you heard any deviation from political correctness. Ironically, Belgian sources haven't been shy in tackling the ethno-religious aspect to youth and violent crime in their.own.country the way English language media has been. This from the very people wanting to delete threads-that they haven't even taken time to.read. Prospero, you get credit for t least asking for sources and.for later apologizing but that only makes you the best of the reactionaries. I apologize for not answering the rest of your post but I am at work.and.simply.don't have the time to give you a worthy reply.

It is not about political correctness, but facts. Thousands of people are arrested every day but are never charged, and some of those who are and are tried in court and are found guilty and sent to prison are innocent -you have no idea who committed the rape which started this thread, just as you have no idea if the people arrested are guilty -to judge people accused of a crime before they have even entered a court room is feeble, and has nothing to with pc but everything to do with justice. You did provide a link to a website that claimed the rapists were Muslims, even though it is not world famous for its objectivity, as most blogs are shaped more by opinions than fact. The same website provided video evidence of the 'initiation' ceremonies that students sometimes 'have to' endure, but you haven't spent much time asking why this kind of thing even exists in the 21st century whether it is among Belgian students or the 'hazing' of raw recruits in the US Armed Forces, or some club of toffs in Oxbridge or an elite college in Australia. Nobody needs to eat somebody else's shit to prove they are a man.
As for making a fuss about it, why? In the UK, for example, we have something called the rule of law, and it is there precisely in order to prevent a lynch-mob rushing out into the street and punishing a felon, real or imagined. I don't know of a single person who approves or condones rape of any kind, most of the people I know think the law is there to take over in such situations and we just hope -as in every crime- that the police do their work properly and arrest the right person(s) and that a fair trial concludes the process of judgement.

It seems to me you have a diifferent agenda, and that it has little to do with the law, and a lot to do with prejudice.

[tragicomedy]

It is not about political correctness, but facts. Thousands of people are arrested every day but are never charged, and some of those who are and are tried in court and are found guilty and sent to prison are innocent -you have no idea who committed the rape which started this thread, just as you have no idea if the people arrested are guilty -to judge people accused of a crime before they have even entered a court room is feeble, and has nothing to with pc but everything to do with justice. You did provide a link to a website that claimed the rapists were Muslims, even though it is not world famous for its objectivity, as most blogs are shaped more by opinions than fact. The same website provided video evidence of the 'initiation' ceremonies that students sometimes 'have to' endure, but you haven't spent much time asking why this kind of thing even exists in the 21st century whether it is among Belgian students or the 'hazing' of raw recruits in the US Armed Forces, or some club of toffs in Oxbridge or an elite college in Australia. Nobody needs to eat somebody else's shit to prove they are a man.
As for making a fuss about it, why? In the UK, for example, we have something called the rule of law, and it is there precisely in order to prevent a lynch-mob rushing out into the street and punishing a felon, real or imagined. I don't know of a single person who approves or condones rape of any kind, most of the people I know think the law is there to take over in such situations and we just hope -as in every crime- that the police do their work properly and arrest the right person(s) and that a fair trial concludes the process of judgement.

It seems to me you have a diifferent agenda, and that it has little to do with the law, and a lot to do with prejudice.
I was hoping you would bring up the UK as it has been perhaps the biggest failure in.combatting antisocial behavior Muslim or non-Muslim and at the same time the greatest source of p.c. Zealotry in all the Western world. Oh ye Guardianistas shall reap bitter tears. Later.

[trish]

Political correctness is a relative notion. Among the white supremacist, for example, it is politically correct to cry "reverse discrimination" whenever a woman wins equal pay for equal work, or whenever a black man becomes head of the Harvard Law Review, or cry "political correctness" whenever someone defends the construction of a Mosque or takes up the cause of a discriminated minority. Zealotry, like rape, knows no bounds.

[Stavros]

I was hoping you would bring up the UK as it has been perhaps the biggest failure in.combatting antisocial behavior Muslim or non-Muslim and at the same time the greatest source of p.c. Zealotry in all the Western world. Oh ye Guardianistas shall reap bitter tears. Later.

For what its worth every day I read The Guardian, The Daily Telegraph, The Independent, and the Financial Times. I am no more a Guardianista than I am a fashionista even if I can tell the difference between a Louis Vuitton and a Burberry handbag without having to go on the internet. There is a lot of anti-social behaviour on the streets of our towns and cities, most of it caused by an excess of alcohol consumption rather than by religion; indeed, it may be caused by an absence of religion. In other words, I have no idea what you are talking about; but I have a sinking feeling you are going to correct me.

[thombergeron]

Ironically, Belgian sources haven't been shy in tackling the ethno-religious aspect to youth and violent crime in their.own.country the way English language media has been.

None of the Belgian sources that you linked to in your earlier comment mention Islam in any way. It seems that you're the only one doing that. Could you offer some Belgian sources that tackle the ethno-religious aspect to youth and violent crime in Belgium to support your comment above?

You've backtracked and gone off on tangents a number of times, and you use written English poorly, so it's difficult to tell precisely what's got your panties in a bunch. But as best I can tell, you seem to have this general sense that Muslims living in European countries are using various forms of interpersonal violence to "dominate" non-Muslims in those countries, and that something called "political correctness" prevents this topic from being discussed openly.

If this is indeed your contention, you need to begin with some actual evidence. Thus far, you have a single, unresolved incident in a single country. Given your certainty, you must have some data in front of you on the rate of Muslim on non-Muslim violence on the European continent. Perhaps you could share that data.

I don't get to Europe much anymore, I'm afraid, so I would necessarily defer to whatever evidence you might have regarding the European context. However, my work often brings me to Indonesia. Since you are an expert on Islam, you are certainly aware that Indonesia is the most populous Muslim country on Earth. Interestingly, the violent crime rate in Indonesia is quite low. Sexual assault is virtually unheard of, somewhere on the order of 0.7 per 100,000. By some estimates, the rate of sexual assault in the U.S. is about 32 times higher. Similarly, the rate of aggravated assault is about 89 times higher in the U.S. as compared to Indonesia.

Apropos of the reason everybody's here, Indonesia has a long tradition of cross-dressing and transgenderism, and transgender people are well integrated into Indonesia society and culture. Based upon the Indonesian context, one could easily conclude that Muslim cultures are far more tolerant of transgenderism than Christian cultures.

[robertlouis]

For what its worth every day I read The Guardian, The Daily Telegraph, The Independent, and the Financial Times. I am no more a Guardianista than I am a fashionista even if I can tell the difference between a Louis Vuitton and a Burberry handbag without having to go on the internet. There is a lot of anti-social behaviour on the streets of our towns and cities, most of it caused by an excess of alcohol consumption rather than by religion; indeed, it may be caused by an absence of religion. In other words, I have no idea what you are talking about; but I have a sinking feeling you are going to correct me.

And most Muslims, of course, don't drink.

[cdgirl-tr]

And most Muslims, of course, don't drink.

This is not correct in real life.

[loveboof]

Technically rape can be excused in certain circumstances in Islam - If a woman is one 'whom your right hand possesses' (sex slaves/captives).

Also (forbidden are) women already married, except those whom your right hands possess (http://islamqa.info/en/ref/12562). Thus has Allah ordained for you. All others are lawful, provided you seek them from your property, desiring chastity, not fornication. So with those among them whom you have enjoyed, give them their required due, but if you agree mutually after the requirement (has been determined), there is no sin on you. Surely, Allah is Ever All-Knowing, All-Wise.

That verse was crystal right? lol

God, religion is disgusting...

But yeah, those particular rapists may or may not be Muslim and their crime has yet to be proved in court.

(I like the guardian)

[thombergeron]

Technically rape can be excused in certain circumstances in Islam - If a woman is one 'whom your right hand possesses' (sex slaves/captives).


Technically, rape can be excused in certain circumstances in Christianity, too. Spoils of war, among others.


When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive's garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion.

Deuteronomy 21:10-14Nitpicking stone-age cults is always dicey. Best bet is simply to reject them all based on overall silliness and irrelevance.

[loveboof]

Technically, rape can be excused in certain circumstances in Christianity, too. Spoils of war, among others.

I don't know why people raise issues with Christianity in response to a specific comment about Islam (or any other religion). This happened before when I said something or other. Is it relevant? Why point out that Christianity is ridiculous too? Do you believe I am a Christian who is simply being hypocritical?

To be honest, it does kinda feel like some PC uncomfortableness with any criticism of Islam.



Nitpicking stone-age cults is always dicey. Best bet is simply to reject them all based on overall silliness and irrelevance.
As soon as we can all agree on that the better imo... :)

[jake9jake9]

It's called Islamophobia right?

[tragicomedy]

Political correctness is a relative notion. Among the white supremacist, for example, it is politically correct to cry "reverse discrimination" whenever a woman wins equal pay for equal work, or whenever a black man becomes head of the Harvard Law Review, or cry "political correctness" whenever someone defends the construction of a Mosque or takes up the cause of a discriminated minority. Zealotry, like rape, knows no bounds.

All true.

[tragicomedy]

For what its worth every day I read The Guardian, The Daily Telegraph, The Independent, and the Financial Times. I am no more a Guardianista than I am a fashionista even if I can tell the difference between a Louis Vuitton and a Burberry handbag without having to go on the internet. There is a lot of anti-social behaviour on the streets of our towns and cities, most of it caused by an excess of alcohol consumption rather than by religion; indeed, it may be caused by an absence of religion. In other words, I have no idea what you are talking about; but I have a sinking feeling you are going to correct me.

I'm not going to do that now that you've changed your tone. I think we tore the pretense off of the p.c. reactionaries with my last post to Prospero.

True, most antisocial behaviour IS caused by binge consumption of alchohol and drugs, espcially in Britain. But let's not use that to cover up the very real phenomenon of gangrape-as-dominance used by Muslims in France (called Tournante there) as well as the case after case in Britain of Pakistani Muslim gangs trafficking and raping non-Muslim girls. This was a huge case when it became clear that the British MSM was practicing self-censorship on this issue.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dans_l%27enfer_des_tournantes

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12142177

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/commentators/yasmin-alibhai-brown/yasmin-alibhaibrown-asian-men-white-women-and-a-taboo-that-must-be-broken-2146251.html

http://www.derbyscb.org.uk/docs/BD09SCRExecutiveSummary.pdf

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-16325953
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/police-errors-mean-girls-killer-may-never-be-found-1803647.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/8433887/60-girls-groomed-for-sex-at-takeaway-shops-in-Blackpool.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/3602854.stm
Documentary throws a bad light at Muslim community in UK - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8Shznb4_eQ)
Notice the Timeline leading back to this documentary being taken off the air versus the long list of other incidents leading up to Jack Straw's comments and beyond a couple years. I don't want to spam you with links so I'll leave it at that.

That is just Britain and France. We see this all over Europe and in Australia.
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2002/sep2002/rape-s06.shtml
Sydney gang rapes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sydney_gang_rapes)
http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2002/s607757.htm
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/07/13/1026185124700.html

Ashfield gang rapes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashfield_gang_rapes)

I haven't heard of it in U.S. or Canada.

[broncofan]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-16325953

This story discusses an investigation where the evidence was not of a high enough quality to convict. There are other links to this story indicating that the men with the Arabic names were acquitted because the officers asking them questions asked leading questions making the interpretation of their answers suspect. This does not support your argument that Muslim rape gangs are so numerous as to be an epidemic of some kind. I'm also not going to read every link you post when you've already posted several that don't say what you claim they do. If you had anything to say you would not have to deluge us with many links that don't say anything.

I see the link to the documentary of those who groom sex slaves. Sex slavery is common in many parts of the world where there are high rates of poverty. Many of these areas are not Muslim majority. I've seen many white supremacist sites claim that "white slavery" is a Jewish controlled trade. I bring this up because it is very much in line with the type of hysteria you're peddling. They also claim that African-American men rape white women at a higher rate.

What these tales have in common is that they are attempts to convince the average man that some group of aliens is raping their women or facilitating their rape. The real explanation? These individuals are not concerned about rape but view their women as proprietary and therefore their rape by an alien is more dangerous than their rape by someone of similar heritage. You would have an argument if rape were predominantly a Muslim problem or if it were relatively rare outside of their communities. However, it is all too common and in many communities. The story you tell has been told a thousand times about every swarthy group to ever set foot in a new country.

[Stavros]

True, most antisocial behaviour IS caused by binge consumption of alchohol and drugs, espcially in Britain. But let's not use that to cover up the very real phenomenon of gangrape-as-dominance used by Muslims in France (called Tournante there) as well as the case after case in Britain of Pakistani Muslim gangs trafficking and raping non-Muslim girls. This was a huge case when it became clear that the British MSM was practicing self-censorship on this issue.


Firstly, the men in Rochdale were not Pakistani but British; secondly your phrase 'case after case' implies that this phenomenon of grooming and rape by 'Muslim gangs' is common, which is simply not the case.

Sociologically, there are more gangs in the UK because there are more people, and more people living in relatively deprived urban areas with high unemployment where the shadow economy offers alternatives sources of income through the usual routes, of which drug peddling is the most obvious. Gangs come in all shapes and sizes, but you are pushing the 'Muslim Gangs' for your own personal agenda just as in this country it is pushed by those people for whom immigration is the 'biggest issue' along with membership of the EU and for whom 'the identity of Britain' is at stake. They show no interest in anything other than this narrow focus on bad behaviour, and the aim is not to confront the problem of grooming and rape across the UK, but only those cases which involve your chosen people.

Decades ago this campaigning targeted West Indians, ie Black men who were corrupting our sweet English virgins, grooming them with flattery, dope and then raping them and sending them out onto the streets as their whores. From 1900 into the 1930s, it was the Jews -mostly from the Russian Empire- who were running riot in London's east end, into everything from fixing boxing matches to drug peddling, bribery, prostitution and so on -name your crime, the Jews were responsible; just as in Germany at the same time the Jews were responsible for the dilution of the purity of the Aryan Race, the defeat in the First World War, inflation, etc etc etc etc.

A few decades before, roughly between 1885 and 1900, the Italian immigrants famous for selling ice cream in the parks were dirty, disease-bearing criminals whose primary location around Holborn was 'notorious' and got so bad there was an article in The Lancet suggesting the Italians were a threat to the nation's health -it got so bad the Medical Officer for the London Country Council visited the area, but then wrote a report in which it was revealed that the Italians were indeed living in cramped tenements, but that their homes were the cleanest, that they had the highest standards of hygiene and were rarely ill, and most of the crime statistics related to men arguing with each other over cards -the arrest rate of Italians was higher than other ethnic groups so the statistics looked bad, sound familiar? At its core, the owners of the property in Holborn refused to renovate the homes which declined into a slum as a result -they wanted to get all the tenants out -Italians, English, Irish for the most part- and re-build more expensive property in a climate of growth in demand for upscale housing in central London. It was the owners of property who were responsible for the poor conditions in which people lived, the Italians did the best they could to maintain their standards, which were higher than the rest.

Jews, Italians, West Indians, Muslims, Albanians, Russians, Martians, choose your people, find real evidence of their crimes, and then condemn everyone who is a Jew, Italian, West Indian, a Muslim, Albanian, or Russian.

It is a tired, old agenda, it is transparent loathing based on selective evidence.

[loveboof]

It's called Islamophobia right?

In regard to my comments, it's called a fact. Telling me 'Christianity is fucked up too' is not a defense of Islam. This is especially true when my main beef is with religion full stop.

I have a lot of muslim friends and we have talked about their wacky beliefs many times! We get on well because we respect each other.

I was contributing to this topic with an interesting quotation from the Koran. Does that warrant mindless, panicky, limp accusations of racism/bigotry? Get real.

[yodajazz]

Well put except being wrong again. I said gangrape as an intimidation tactic is a universal phenomenon. Muslims are not unique in that regard. What is unique is a majority, indigenous population terrified to address it. Feminists from the Muslim population and child services personnel from the non-Muslim population are not shy to discuss it.

Lets say that you are right: That is, that the majority do not speak up. I assume you mean in Muslim communities. In that case, then having more dialog between communities, is something that could help bring change. In other words, the solutions involve the exchange of ideas. My main point is, that this brings greater change, than drone pilot attacks. Killing people with drone attacks is also an intimidation tactic. I personally question, how good that is in changing ideas. And speaking of ideas, if you or anyone, thinks that 'negative' behavior by Muslims is the result of words in the Koran, I could easily find words that condemn that same behavior in the Koran. I intuitively know that rape is condemned in such books. So then, those words in the Koran, or other related books, are most effective weapons to promote positive behaviors in those communities. And this then makes burning the Koran, the exactly wrong thing to do, in making a better world.

[tragicomedy]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-16325953

This story discusses an investigation where the evidence was not of a high enough quality to convict. There are other links to this story indicating that the men with the Arabic names were acquitted because the officers asking them questions asked leading questions making the interpretation of their answers suspect. This does not support your argument that Muslim rape gangs are so numerous as to be an epidemic of some kind. I'm also not going to read every link you post when you've already posted several that don't say what you claim they do. If you had anything to say you would not have to deluge us with many links that don't say anything.

I see the link to the documentary of those who groom sex slaves. Sex slavery is common in many parts of the world where there are high rates of poverty. Many of these areas are not Muslim majority. I've seen many white supremacist sites claim that "white slavery" is a Jewish controlled trade. I bring this up because it is very much in line with the type of hysteria you're peddling. They also claim that African-American men rape white women at a higher rate.

What these tales have in common is that they are attempts to convince the average man that some group of aliens is raping their women or facilitating their rape. The real explanation? These individuals are not concerned about rape but view their women as proprietary and therefore their rape by an alien is more dangerous than their rape by someone of similar heritage. You would have an argument if rape were predominantly a Muslim problem or if it were relatively rare outside of their communities. However, it is all too common and in many communities. The story you tell has been told a thousand times about every swarthy group to ever set foot in a new country.

So you are dismissing real crimes which have gone to trial.and won.multiple.convictions as tales? You are a propagandist, not me.

[Prospero]

tragicomedy - I have no idea what sort of life you live or where you derive the main sources of your information. Wht is wholly clear from your original posts in this thread is that you regard islam and its followers as a threat to "western civilisation" - and Muslim men as inherently likely to rape. You've tried to play down this aspect with clouds of rhetoric and attacks on those who reasonably discern your basic attitudes as "reactionaries" (whatever you - Mr Humpty Dumpty - intend that word to mean in your curious private language) . None of your ignorant postings have proved anything apart from your own ill-informed prejudices. As i said before please show some respectable evidential material on how Muslim men, because of their faith, are more prone to rape women than other groups. I know you cannot. Those early posts stand as clear evidence of your position.

[tragicomedy]

tragicomedy - I have no idea what sort of life you live or where you derive the main sources of your information. Wht is wholly clear from your original posts in this thread is that you regard islam and its followers as a threat to "western civilisation" - and Muslim men as inherently likely to rape. You've tried to play down this aspect with clouds of rhetoric and attacks on those who reasonably discern your basic attitudes as "reactionaries" (whatever you - Mr Humpty Dumpty - intend that word to mean in your curious private language) . None of your ignorant postings have proved anything apart from your own ill-informed prejudices. As i said before please show some respectable evidential material on how Muslim men, because of their faith, are more prone to rape women than other groups. I know you cannot. Those early posts stand as clear evidence of your position.

You already discredited yourself hen it was clear you hadn't read the posts and then manufactured a critique of dissenters based on your own biased viewpoint. I have only presented 1 academic study and 1 book on the subject. I could present more. You and your ilk have presented.nothing but personal attacks and stale rhetoric. Let us not forget that I am the only person who presented original Belgian sources on.this subjext. You have produced nothing and have gotten it WRONG when you did comment.

[thombergeron]

I don't know why people raise issues with Christianity in response to a specific comment about Islam (or any other religion). This happened before when I said something or other. Is it relevant? Why point out that Christianity is ridiculous too? Do you believe I am a Christian who is simply being hypocritical?

To be honest, it does kinda feel like some PC uncomfortableness with any criticism of Islam.


As soon as we can all agree on that the better imo... :)

I can't speak to why "people" react in such a way, but I do so because hypocrisy drives me apeshit. There's something distinctly colonial about scouring the Internets for obscure Koranic interpretations while pointedly ignoring all the sick shit in the Christian Bible. There's really nothing that you can say about Islam that you can't also say about Christianity. So I really don't understand the motivation to chime in with pearl-clutching over Islam.

If you had said, "Religious people love rape because they hate women," that would be an even-handed comment. But you didn't. You googled "Islam" and "rape" and pasted in the creepiest thing you could find. Why do that?

My hypothesis, given the overwhelming proliferation of armchair Koran "experts" and white people with "Muslim friends" since 9/11, is that concern-trolling Islam provides convenient cover for hating on brown people. Whereas it is no longer acceptable to say, "Wogs like to fuck goats," there is very little social sanction against those who say, "The story of Ayesha illustrates the central role of pedophilia in Islam."

I don't know you at all, so I can't say whether you, loveboof, are a bigot or are just trying to be clever. But I can say for certain that the activity that you're engaged in -- nitpicking the brown people's religion while staying mum on the white people's religion -- provides cover for bigots.

[Prospero]

Tragicomedy wrote; "You already discredited yourself when it was clear you hadn't read the posts and then manufactured a critique of dissenters based on your own biased viewpoint. I have only presented 1 academic study and 1 book on the subject. I could present more. You and your ilk have presented.nothing but personal attacks and stale rhetoric. Let us not forget that I am the only person who presented original Belgian sources on.this subjext. You have produced nothing and have gotten it WRONG when you did comment."

No I made one small error - attributing to you postings from specifically racist websites. As I have already pointed out your attitudes chime with the values on these sites. I have read all your posts (bar those in the Flemish languge which i do not speak) But you have presented NOTHING at all which substantiates your racist assumptions. So don't talk piffle. Discredited? Hardly. I have invited you over and over again to offer some substantial intellectually sound evidence of your assertions about islam and sexuality which you have failed to do. My "biased" viewpoint is based on actual experience of working with Muslims, working extensively in Arab countries and on academic studies to do with radical islam - including a University fellowship which has been devoted to focusing on Islam. Your so called original Belgian sources, it appears, do not IN ANY WAY attribute these attacks to people who are proved to be muslims. Nor as Stavros pointed out has anyone actually been convicted of this. You present a farrago of prejudice and have the audacity to say the rest of us present stale rhetoric and personal attacks. Your base your views entirely on cliched prejudices.

I shan't be commenting anymore on your racism.

[thombergeron]

You already discredited yourself hen it was clear you hadn't read the posts and then manufactured a critique of dissenters based on your own biased viewpoint. I have only presented 1 academic study and 1 book on the subject. I could present more. You and your ilk have presented.nothing but personal attacks and stale rhetoric. Let us not forget that I am the only person who presented original Belgian sources on.this subjext. You have produced nothing and have gotten it WRONG when you did comment.

Unfortunately, I did waste about 10 minutes of my precious time on earth referencing all the links in your prior post. None were academic studies. One was a very brief wikipedia article about a book written in French, but none of the links provided actual content from that book. Thus, we are left with a series of anecdotal accounts -- several describing the same incident -- and an opinion piece which contains this interesting tidbit: "The Derby gang was all Asian except for one seasoned white abuser."

I do epidemiological work, and I'm continually amazed that lay people don't really understand what evidence is. For instance, this story (http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2012/11/25/Accused-Utah-rapist-commits-suicide/UPI-56451353885143/) is not actually evidence that white men are serial rapists.

Also still waiting for your Belgian sources discussing the ethno-religious aspects of youth crime.

[Prospero]

Well said thombergeron

[loveboof]

I can't speak to why "people" react in such a way, but I do so because hypocrisy drives me apeshit. There's something distinctly colonial about scouring the Internets for obscure Koranic interpretations while pointedly ignoring all the sick shit in the Christian Bible. There's really nothing that you can say about Islam that you can't also say about Christianity. So I really don't understand the motivation to chime in with pearl-clutching over Islam.

If you had said, "Religious people love rape because they hate women," that would be an even-handed comment. But you didn't. You googled "Islam" and "rape" and pasted in the creepiest thing you could find. Why do that?

My hypothesis, given the overwhelming proliferation of armchair Koran "experts" and white people with "Muslim friends" since 9/11, is that concern-trolling Islam provides convenient cover for hating on brown people. Whereas it is no longer acceptable to say, "Wogs like to fuck goats," there is very little social sanction against those who say, "The story of Ayesha illustrates the central role of pedophilia in Islam."

I don't know you at all, so I can't say whether you, loveboof, are a bigot or are just trying to be clever. But I can say for certain that the activity that you're engaged in -- nitpicking the brown people's religion while staying mum on the white people's religion -- provides cover for bigots.

Well let me set your mind at ease with the 'apeshit hypocrisy' - I am not a Christian; I think it is just as dumb. However, it would be particularly irrelevant for me to chime into a discussion about Muslims raping people with some interesting quotations from the bible about rape. Surely you can see that?

And actually, I didn't google Islam and rape then post my findings. I remembered something interesting about Islam (namely, that 'right hand possesses' thing) and thought I'd share it.

9/11 has nothing to do with anthing I have said. There was a stage when I was younger that every single one of my good friends were Muslim (happenstance and a complete lack of racism/bigotry were the likely factors). I have been friends with some of them for over 15 years, others I have lost contact with. Not a cover for 'hating brown people'. You are not in a position to tell me what I believe about anything - the best you can do is interpret the words I am saying... (not what you see in between them)

I can just as easily nit-pick white people's religion (wtf does that mean btw?), but that is not really relevant when we're specifically talking about Islam. As I said, it is not a defense of Islam to say 'Christianity is just as fucked up'.

[Wanderer1]

You are i are, largely in agreement, Jericho.
But Islamism is not islam... just a little tweak. It's a political idea derived from the faith.
This is not the thread for a detailed discussion of whether islam is, in itself, a religion of peace. I'm not so sure it can be described quite so simply.
But you are correct - the religious identity of the rapists here really is irrelevent.

And tragicomedy is clearly an ignorant and deeply ill informed person.

yes and no, Islamism is NOT Islam to me too. I have had good Muslim friends and co-workers since young adulthood (1980). However, the `moderates' must speak up! Denouncing this selfish sect(s) of Islam. This can be compared to Christians having a selfish (and associated violence and hate) interpretation of the Bible, of which can be seen in neo-nazis, et al. We, in the West cannot just `let them be'.

[yodajazz]

yes and no, Islamism is NOT Islam to me too. I have had good Muslim friends and co-workers since young adulthood (1980). However, the `moderates' must speak up! Denouncing this selfish sect(s) of Islam. This can be compared to Christians having a selfish (and associated violence and hate) interpretation of the Bible, of which can be seen in neo-nazis, et al. We, in the West cannot just `let them be'.

How do you or I know, who is speaking up, or who isn't? Right after 9/11 a video was shown on television with what looked to be 7-8 Arabs (assumed to be Muslim) looking people celebrating. We dont know in reality that they were even celebrating the attack on the Twin Towers. More people remember that video than remember that 100,000 people in Tehran who gathered for a candlelight vigil in support of the US victims. And some things are so obvious we should know they are not supported by religious doctrine. No one has mentioned the religious affiliation of the recent school shooter. Would a Muslim want to live in the US, if he believed that people should be stoned to death for adultery? One thing you can do is to do some research for yourself. For example you could ask a question in Google and view the responses from knowledgeable scholars. When I did this, I found documentation for about everything thing good, I believed had to be true in the Koran. An important fact to understand, is that Sunni Islam does not have a centralized leadership, that could speak out publicly on issues, I'm told. Given the corporate ownership of US media, we need to be critical of the quality of news we receive, if we value a greater truth.

[tragicomedy]

It's interesting to read this thread and see to what lengths certain well-meaning multiculturalists will go to defend the indefensible.

Especially those coming from the UK. Quite a bunch of zealots.

[yodajazz]

It's interesting to read this thread and see to what lengths certain well-meaning multiculturalists will go to defend the indefensible.

Especially those coming from the UK. Quite a bunch of zealots.

Not certain, exactly what you say others were defending. No one here has defended rape, that I remember. So it's has to be the Muslim youth part. Am I right?

[Prospero]

Yoda - ill advised to respond to this palpable racist. i did but thought better of it.

[hippifried]

So... If you grow red, white, & blue mold in the same petri dish, does that make you a "multiculturalist"?

[tragicomedy]

Yoda - ill advised to respond to this palpable racist. i did but thought better of it.

Oh, kind of like the fool who said I pulled the link from a White supremacist website but turned out to be completely wrong?

You are such a typical, nasty little reactionary.

Not only that, but so passive agressive. It's good that you deleted your posts because you were scared of the wrong reaction. Then you "advise" people not to reply.

What a coward you are, to put that on top of being wrong and unable to defend your disgusting arguments.

[tragicomedy]

Yoda - ill advised to respond to this palpable racist. i did but thought better of it.


So... If you grow red, white, & blue mold in the same petri dish, does that make you a "multiculturalist"?

Or a petriot...

[trish]

What's a petriot?

[robertlouis]

What's a petriot?

Dunno, but petriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel. :dancing:

[Prospero]

Tragicomedy - no i was not wrong. Your sources were massively flawed ones. Like your views. Many others here have taken you to task for your views. I am sorry to see you've slitered back from whatever stone you hide under.

And reactionary?. What an absurd word for a Muslim hating racist like you to use.

I am perfectly happy to debate, but not with a obvious racist like you. In the UK most parties of right and left refuse to share a platform with the British National Party and, before that, the National Front - organisations with, at heart, a racist agenda.. The views of these parties and yours are congruent. Yes i deleted my reactions to your stupidity because i knew it would bring forth a torrent of bile from you. As it has.

This is what I wrote a few weeks ago and I stand by it: "tragicomedy... so freedom of speech means the freedom to vilify whole groups in the way you do? Hatespeech is good speech is it? Why in every response to the person from Turkey do you feel it necessary to refer to the Armenian genocide as if that is the only thing you know about Turkey? While you're at it why not start banging on about the Ottoman empire? Janissaries and the like? Or perhaps you'd like to refer to the glorious and civilising influence of the Ottoman's at their zenith? To the great Mosque architects like Sinan?

As I see it your vilification of Muslims is emblematic of an obsessive fear transmuting into hatred of islam. Get some education about the religion and then you might be able to make some intelligent contributions to the discussion.

As others have noted even if the attackers WERE Muslim, what does that prove? Do we identity other rapists as Christians or atheists or Hindu or whatever? Do burglars who happen to be Muslim get labelled as such? I don't think so. You jumped into this to support the labelling of these people Muslim because it plays to a false stereotype pedalled by haters - in whose number you are clearly included."

[Stavros]

This thread was flogged to death at the time; bury it.

[Prospero]

I agree Stavros.

[tragicomedy]

Dunno, but petriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel. :dancing:


What's a petriot?


I'm glad someone understood it.

[tragicomedy]

Tragicomedy - no i was not wrong. Your sources were massively flawed ones. Like your views. Many others here have taken you to task for your views. I am sorry to see you've slitered back from whatever stone you hide under.

And reactionary?. What an absurd word for a Muslim hating racist like you to use.

I am perfectly happy to debate, but not with a obvious racist like you. In the UK most parties of right and left refuse to share a platform with the British National Party and, before that, the National Front - organisations with, at heart, a racist agenda.. The views of these parties and yours are congruent. Yes i deleted my reactions to your stupidity because i knew it would bring forth a torrent of bile from you. As it has.

This is what I wrote a few weeks ago and I stand by it: "tragicomedy... so freedom of speech means the freedom to vilify whole groups in the way you do? Hatespeech is good speech is it? Why in every response to the person from Turkey do you feel it necessary to refer to the Armenian genocide as if that is the only thing you know about Turkey? While you're at it why not start banging on about the Ottoman empire? Janissaries and the like? Or perhaps you'd like to refer to the glorious and civilising influence of the Ottoman's at their zenith? To the great Mosque architects like Sinan?

As I see it your vilification of Muslims is emblematic of an obsessive fear transmuting into hatred of islam. Get some education about the religion and then you might be able to make some intelligent contributions to the discussion.

As others have noted even if the attackers WERE Muslim, what does that prove? Do we identity other rapists as Christians or atheists or Hindu or whatever? Do burglars who happen to be Muslim get labelled as such? I don't think so. You jumped into this to support the labelling of these people Muslim because it plays to a false stereotype pedalled by haters - in whose number you are clearly included."


NOW you back track and say you weren't wrong.


The truth doesn't matter to you does it? Is it all relative to you?

[trish]

Prospero never said he was wrong. He merely changed his mind about engaging you. Please refrain fron mischaracterising others and confine your attention to the issue.

[Prospero]

Thanks Trish. But, no... tragicomedy has got, amidst his tirades of racist filth, one thing right. I said the sites he quoted were like Der Sturmer. I later said that was not the case. He consistently relied on flawed and anti-Muslim sites however. And his posts were certainly worthy of that esteemed journal. His ludicrous and hateful remarks about Muslims reveal him to be a noxious and unrelenting racist. About that i was 100 per cent right. Now tragicomedy shut up and go back to the rank place you crawled out off. Your ignorance has no place here.

[hippifried]

I'm glad someone understood it.

I understood it.

[fivekatz]

I traveled much of Europe in 2003 and found the anti-Muslim sentiment almost jarring, mostly because I was naive more than as an American I had some illusion that this type of hatred existed. My country has a long and bitter history of find what separates us as human beings rather than what brings us together as human beings.

The politics of fundamentalism cloud issues, most notably in the case a Islam in recent times. But the fundamentalists in Israel who persecute Palestinians or the Christians who have over history engaged in poor behavior based on the object of their hatreds race, sexual orientation or religious beliefs are wrong in doing so and have lost touch with the core of their religions actual teachings.

Whether this crime was motivated by Islamic sentiment, homophobia and bizarre behavior is not the exclusive property of those followers.

The issue will continue to man's inhumanity to man for the most simple minded reasons when we look back at those reasons but at the moment in the mind of the inflictors of hate, their reasons seemed clear and had divine backing.

[broncofan]

NOW you back track and say you weren't wrong.


The truth doesn't matter to you does it? Is it all relative to you?
Tragicomedy's tactic it is to let someone write three or four paragraphs of thoughtful prose and then respond with two or three sentences to keep his thread alive. Then claim he has not been proven wrong, that others are reactionaries or multi-culturalists who will not accept the real truth which he does nothing to establish. This is a way to keep a debate alive forever and claim he gave as good as he got.

The thread is ugly but it serves one useful function; as a monument to one man's racism, stupidity, and resistance to reason. Surely it's a warning to anyone who would interact with him on cordial terms elsewhere. We could rename it, the scarlet letter;.

[tragicomedy]

Prospero never said he was wrong. He merely changed his mind about engaging you. Please refrain fron mischaracterising others and confine your attention to the issue.

Actually he did say he was wrong several posts ago. He had to admit it as he had made that smear out of whole cloth with no evidence to back it up.


It would be nice if you actually read posts before telling me what to do.

[tragicomedy]

Tragicomedy's tactic it is to let someone write three or four paragraphs of thoughtful prose and then respond with two or three sentences to keep his thread alive. Then claim he has not been proven wrong, that others are reactionaries or multi-culturalists who will not accept the real truth which he does nothing to establish. This is a way to keep a debate alive forever and claim he gave as good as he got.

The thread is ugly but it serves one useful function; as a monument to one man's racism, stupidity, and resistance to reason. Surely it's a warning to anyone who would interact with him on cordial terms elsewhere. We could rename it, the scarlet letter;.

I LOVE when P.C. reactionaries fall over themselves to attack. It's not my thread, I didn't start it.

Like Trish and Prospero, you failed to do the simplest bit of reading before attacking.

Isn't it great when p.c zealots and multiculturalists show their true colors? Saves me a lot of time.

[broncofan]

I LOVE when P.C. reactionaries fall over themselves to attack. It's not my thread, I didn't start it.

Like Trish and Prospero, you failed to do the simplest bit of reading before attacking.

Isn't it great when p.c zealots and multiculturalists show their true colors? Saves me a lot of time.
"with two or three sentences to keep his thread alive. Then claim he has not been proven wrong, that others are reactionaries or multi-culturalists who will not accept the real truth which he does nothing to establish. This is a way to keep a debate alive forever and claim he gave as good as he got."

This is your thread even if you didn't start it. You wrote four sentence fragments and a question. While this is more than the two or three sentences I predicted, the content is depressingly familiar and devoid of any sort of argument. Are you capable of writing an argument without excessive reliance on the words "zealot, multi-culturalist (a euphemism for not being a racist), and reactionary"? Try initiating some thought and writing a useful, fleshed-out argument.

Did it occur to you that your quibble has done nothing to change my argument and in fact reinforces it; you have confined yourself to being a pest, you have not made a substantive argument in several pages, and you have been out-argued by more than a half dozen posters. Many of these individuals have made intelligent and forceful arguments and your rebuttals have been piss-poor. But since you have no shame, no decency, and are incapable of rational thought, this thread continues. Please another gratuitous line or two about how the rest of civilized society is composed of reactionaries.

[broncofan]

I realize I've fallen into the trap. This shithead does not have an interest in any other political or religious matters and so not responding to this thread will ensure his timely extinction here. Good riddance. :loser:

[Prospero]

No he doesn't have any interest in debate. His true colours were visible in his first few posts where he talks of islam and sexual attacks. No evidence offered. Just smears. He unthinkingly buys into all the worst prejudices against Muslims and posts messages designed to inspire hatred against an entire faith group - with no evidence to support his claims. He then goes into a cloudburst of camouflage trying to insult those of us with knowledge about the subject. PC zealots and multiculturalists being his choice terms to dismiss those who do not unthinkingly accept racist or cultural stereotypes. His thinking is, as i said before, the perfect fit for the sort of cultural stereotyping that end up in atrocities. Hence my reference to Der Sturmer.

[trish]

TC, your post #141 is unnecessary having been superseded by P's post#137. It would be nice if you actually understood the prior posts before


...telling me what to do.

I'm so sorry that you are as blinded by your hatred as I am supported in my trust in all peoples.

[broncofan]

His thinking is, as i said before, the perfect fit for the sort of cultural stereotyping that end up in atrocities.
I agree with you. Sometimes when I am searching Jewish community issues I run into white supremacist sites and what I'm always amazed about is the self-pity. They say the nastiest things and then when challenged claim they are being persecuted. When they make claims the rebuttals are often so obvious that they should have been aware of them while writing. Cognitive dissonance, resistance to new facts, inability to judge their own actions by the same standards they use to judge others. Bad faith. It's as though their agenda has taken possession of their soul and rendered them incapable of the most basic human decency.

[tragicomedy]

I agree with you. Sometimes when I am searching Jewish community issues I run into white supremacist sites and what I'm always amazed about is the self-pity. They say the nastiest things and then when challenged claim they are being persecuted. When they make claims the rebuttals are often so obvious that they should have been aware of them while writing. Cognitive dissonance, resistance to new facts, inability to judge their own actions by the same standards they use to judge others. Bad faith. It's as though their agenda has taken possession of their soul and rendered them incapable of the most basic human decency.

Wow, do you and your ilk lack self awareness or what?


What do you think your buddies have been doing in this thread? They seem to be more interested in prior restraint (typical of p.c. reactionaries) than actual debate. That's the part that's tiring.

Oh and in the outside chance that you have a shred of honesty, go back a few pages and notice that I'm the only person who actually bothered to look up the story and see what local bloggers were saying about the incident. I also noticed how much the BBC seemed to be leaving out and that this is not the first incident of it's kind in Europe with the same ethnic combination in victim and victimizer.


Your buddy Prospero offered NOTHING but attacks and then made the claim that I was providing a link to a nazi site. Showing that he hadn't even bothered to check the link that he was denying out of hand.

I then pivoted to the disproportionately high number of Muslim on non-Muslim gang rapes of minors in his country and that really set him off. It's very hard for the Left in the UK to defend it's track record when these incidents keep coming up again and again. To the point where a former British Foreign Secretary had to bring it up to get the media to address the matter.

http://www.theweek.co.uk/politics/8707/muslims-back-jack-straw-pakistani-rape-gangs
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/8248189/Jack-Straw-sparks-row-with-Pakistan-easy-meat-remark.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/8248189/Jack-Straw-sparks-row-with-Pakistan-easy-meat-remark.html
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/jack-straw-white-girls-are-easy-173743


and again...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2141279/Rochdale-child-sex-trial-Police-hunt-40-suspects-promise-arrests.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-17993003


then..
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/11/14/muslim-gangs-raping-white-kids-says-tory-mp_n_2128305.html


The sad part is that this has been documented for years and years before Jack Straw made his comments.

British social services had even participated in a documentary that featured discussion of this phenomenon but guess what, pressure from multiculturalists like Prospero kept it off the air.



That's the end result of Left wingers trying to shut down discussion.

[tragicomedy]

No he doesn't have any interest in debate. His true colours were visible in his first few posts where he talks of islam and sexual attacks. No evidence offered. Just smears. He unthinkingly buys into all the worst prejudices against Muslims and posts messages designed to inspire hatred against an entire faith group - with no evidence to support his claims. He then goes into a cloudburst of camouflage trying to insult those of us with knowledge about the subject. PC zealots and multiculturalists being his choice terms to dismiss those who do not unthinkingly accept racist or cultural stereotypes. His thinking is, as i said before, the perfect fit for the sort of cultural stereotyping that end up in atrocities. Hence my reference to Der Sturmer.

I'm the only one who even offered evidence and YOU decided to lie about it. Yet again, it's great to shine that mirror on you disgusting hypocrites. You will literally say anything to defend your world view. Even contradict yourself one post after the other.

That's the galling part, NO Evidence?? What the heck, I'm the only one who even tried to do such a thing and you decided to lie about me.

[Prospero]

Welcome back. Got more hatred for Muslims today to offer?

Where is the evidence for your assertion that "multiculturalists like Prospero kept it off air."

In truth a ciuple of years ago I led a team that spent a significant amount of time investigating the challenges faced by the Muslim community in the UK - and the challenge they present to the wider community. The key issues are islamophobia (of the sort your postings are symptomatic) and an recruitment of young second generation young Muslims by jihdists. There is clearly a link between the two - and this is a serious issue within the community.

The appalling case you provide links to implicates a group of men for whom no one can make any apology and who have been condemned by the Muslim community itself. The fact of their shared "faith" proves what exactly? For people of your prejudiced view, this seems to be that Muslims are all racists and sex criminals (as you suggest in your opening posts) and that there are innumerable other cases. Again no evidence. The faith of these men was irrelevent. There are plenty of sex crimes, by Christians for instance, which do not the get used to characterise Christians as prone to sex rimes because of their faith. Homophobic crimes by christians in the US which do not lead us to conclude that all Christians are homophobic and likely to go beating up or killing gay people.

And by the way Jack Straw's attitude to Islam is pretty controversial and ignorant.. A few years back he suggested that Muslim women should not be allowed to wear the veil.

I stand fully by my labelling of you as a hater.

[Prospero]

Finally... Tragicomedy repeatedly claims he posted news sources. in fact he posted links to blogs - a pretty unreliable source of information. He then interpreted people of north african origin to mean Muslims. And then by extension assumed that it was their common religious identity (if there was one) that led to their behaviour. And when challenged by a Turkish member resorted to reference to the Armenian genocide (as if that is in any way relevant to the discussion at all). Here are his opening salvoes on the subject.

"Why shouldn't theu attach it to Muslims? Go to a country wuth a large Muslim pop and you will see this behavior is common. It spread to many non-arab countries through Muslim.conquest."

"Translations on the web state that the offenders were the children of North African immigranta almost all.of.whom are Morrocan. Gangrape of gays and non-Muslims is common and.it.is.not.unheard of.in Europe. You guys need to wake.up because you are enabling these people."

"No. You are the idiot and a person so wedded to ideology that you would shut down discussion of rape and groups that are more.willing to publicly sanction.it. You folks should be ashamed of yourselves for enabling people who show no respect for Western.countries. Your cowardice is disgusting."

"Fool. Take a look at the youth population of Belgium and what % is Muslim. The rapists,.were teenagers.of.North African origin. If.you dont want to.face the truth, fine. But you are not corrrect in trying to stop.others from talking.about it."

[Stavros]

What do you think your buddies have been doing in this thread? They seem to be more interested in prior restraint (typical of p.c. reactionaries) than actual debate. That's the part that's tiring...
...British social services had even participated in a documentary that featured discussion of this phenomenon but guess what, pressure from multiculturalists like Prospero kept it off the air...
That's the end result of Left wingers trying to shut down discussion.

What is tiring, tragicomedy is dealing with your phoney argument -you divert attention away from the issue at the core of your argument, by labelling people and identifying the cause of their crimes as their religion when your real purpose is to condemn immigration as a catastrophe for the UK.

It is not about 'the left' shutting down debates about 'multiculturalism', it is about your agenda in which immigration is halted immediately, in which Human Rights legislation is scrapped and along with it any right of any person to claim political asylum in the UK, and ideally, over time, the UK leaving the EU, the expulsion of Muslims from the UK, and at a later stage by the expulsion of 'the Blacks'.

It is so tiring to have to go back over all the evidence of prejudice against identified 'outsiders' that I don't intend to do it. You have decided that the UK, or maybe it's just England, once had a definable character, and that this sense of being English has been eroded by 'mass immigration' and membership of the EU, and you don't like it. Nobody likes crime, whether it is carrried out by Muslims, Jews, Italians, Gypsies, or for that matter the Richardsons and the Krays -the causes of crime are not linked to the colour of a person's skin or their religious heritage, so maybe you could take a few steps beyond identifying the 'causes of crime' and offer a solution.

[hippifried]

I'm the only one who even offered evidence and YOU decided to lie about it. Yet again, it's great to shine that mirror on you disgusting hypocrites. You will literally say anything to defend your world view. Even contradict yourself one post after the other.

That's the galling part, NO Evidence?? What the heck, I'm the only one who even tried to do such a thing and you decided to lie about me.

Oh... Evidence...

So if you have 5 apples & 3 oranges, how many jalapeños do you need to make a banana cream pie?

WHAT????? You don't know the answer? You probably forgot to carry the peach to the next column. (Tomatoes only work if posted after the first week of the month in base 11) It rhymes with purple, & I'm sure it's evidence of something somewhere. Might even hold up in blog court. Careful! Knowledge of this sort of "evidence" can get you elected king of your padded cell.

BTW: As long as we're rewriting the dictionary, can we just change the meaning of "irrelevant" to not fucking your sister?

[tragicomedy]

Welcome back. Got more hatred for Muslims today to offer?

Where is the evidence for your assertion that "multiculturalists like Prospero kept it off air."
http://www.naar.org.uk/
http://uaf.org.uk/
http://www.1990trust.org.uk/search/node/channel%204
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8Shznb4_eQ
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2207756/Police-turned-blind-eye-South-Yorkshire-sex-grooming-gangs-decade.html

Colin Cramphorn, the then Chief Constable of West Yorkshire, joined groups such as Unite against Fascism in calling for the documentary to be withdrawn. Channel 4 complied, saying that the issue was not censorship but timing because of the proximity with the local and European elections.

After the film was withdrawn, one of the mothers sent Annie Hall a text message: “It’s a real shame when votes come before young girls’ lives.”

This is one of the directors of child services who was in charge during the earlier Rotherham attacks, and her decision to minimize and obfuscate proves telling years later in another questionable decision.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/rotherham-borough-council-admits-it-made-1458765

In truth a ciuple of years ago I led a team that spent a significant amount of time investigating the challenges faced by the Muslim community in the UK - and the challenge they present to the wider community. The key issues are islamophobia (of the sort your postings are symptomatic) and an recruitment of young second generation young Muslims by jihdists. There is clearly a link between the two - and this is a serious issue within the community.

The appalling case you provide links to implicates a group of men for whom no one can make any apology and who have been condemned by the Muslim community itself. The fact of their shared "faith" proves what exactly? For people of your prejudiced view, this seems to be that Muslims are all racists and sex criminals (as you suggest in your opening posts) and that there are innumerable other cases. Again no evidence. The faith of these men was irrelevent. There are plenty of sex crimes, by Christians for instance, which do not the get used to characterise Christians as prone to sex rimes because of their faith. Homophobic crimes by christians in the US which do not lead us to conclude that all Christians are homophobic and likely to go beating up or killing gay people.

And by the way Jack Straw's attitude to Islam is pretty controversial and ignorant.. A few years back he suggested that Muslim women should not be allowed to wear the veil.

I stand fully by my labelling of you as a hater.


It's a key part of the history of Islam but it doesn't mean that it's something that Muslims cannot erase. Those men are continuing a practice that started with their Prophet's companions.


But it's not a solely Muslim phenomenon, something you and I would both admit.

It's a tribal and supremacist phenomenon. In the case of these men, they view non-Muslims as the lesser tribe to be subjugated and humiliated.


The odd thing is that this type of behavior occurs in a country where they are a vulnerable, visible minority.

In Pakistan, these men prey on Sikhs, Christians, Hindus and minority Muslim sects that have been labeled as Kafirs. These groups live under constant threat of violence and have little recourse from the police.


But in Britain, they are targeting the children of the indigenous, super-majority population. This is enabled by multiculturalists LIKE YOURSELF who have put ideology before safety. Who are so obsessed with protecting the "other" that you would make the police and politicians feel they have to be silent about paedophile gangs for fear of being labeled racist, and all the loss of social standing that label brings forth.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2184203/Fears-branded-racist-stops-police-investigating-crimes-ethnic-minorities.html
Documentary throws a bad light at Muslim community in UK - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8Shznb4_eQ)


It looks like forcing you to confront an ugly truth is the only thing that would get you to address the issue. If only you multiculturalists were more honest in other situations, I guess it takes years of kids being gangraped and trafficked for you to address the subject.

You're so used to just intimidating people into silence, but somethings can't be kept quiet forever.


Mr Shafiq described the child predators as “sick and evil”, adding: “The time for ill-informed racial sensitivities on this needs to be stopped and we need immediate implementation of all elements of a new, positive action plan.”

Former MP for Keighley, Anne Cryer (pictured top left), told Parliament’s influential Home Affairs Select Committee in January 2013 that gangs of Pakistani men were allowed to prey on vulnerable young white girls for years in Bradford and Keighley, because authorities, including West Yorkshire Police, were “terrified of being called racist”.

Ann Cryer, who was MP for Keighley for 13 years before stepping down in 2010, said there had been a total failure by local police, social services, schools and hospitals in West Yorkshire to work together to address the mounting evidence of child sex exploitation that emerged a decade ago. “There has to be inter-agency working – and that wasn’t happening then”.

She added “West Yorkshire Police, Bradford Council, social services, schools, hospitals even – because abortions were taking place – none of them were working together. None of them were giving information“.

During his three months in office so far, and particularly after Anne Cryer’s evidence to the HASC, there has been no press announcement from the West Yorkshire Police and Crime Commissioner, Mark Burns-Williamson. It is highly relevant to point out that he was West Yorkshire Police Authority Chairman from 2003 to 2012. Throughout the whole of that period child grooming in Bradford and Keighley was tolerated

[tragicomedy]

Oh... Evidence...

So if you have 5 apples & 3 oranges, how many jalapeños do you need to make a banana cream pie?

WHAT????? You don't know the answer? You probably forgot to carry the peach to the next column. (Tomatoes only work if posted after the first week of the month in base 11) It rhymes with purple, & I'm sure it's evidence of something somewhere. Might even hold up in blog court. Careful! Knowledge of this sort of "evidence" can get you elected king of your padded cell.

BTW: As long as we're rewriting the dictionary, can we just change the meaning of "irrelevant" to not fucking your sister?


That's a whole post full of nothing, yet you think you're funny. I can see that you're angry though. Good, if you see a little of yourself in the scumbag Left wingers who put their ideology above the safety of children, maybe you'll change.

[tragicomedy]

What is tiring, tragicomedy is dealing with your phoney argument -you divert attention away from the issue at the core of your argument, by labelling people and identifying the cause of their crimes as their religion when your real purpose is to condemn immigration as a catastrophe for the UK.

It is not about 'the left' shutting down debates about 'multiculturalism', it is about your agenda in which immigration is halted immediately, in which Human Rights legislation is scrapped and along with it any right of any person to claim political asylum in the UK, and ideally, over time, the UK leaving the EU, the expulsion of Muslims from the UK, and at a later stage by the expulsion of 'the Blacks'.

It is so tiring to have to go back over all the evidence of prejudice against identified 'outsiders' that I don't intend to do it. You have decided that the UK, or maybe it's just England, once had a definable character, and that this sense of being English has been eroded by 'mass immigration' and membership of the EU, and you don't like it. Nobody likes crime, whether it is carrried out by Muslims, Jews, Italians, Gypsies, or for that matter the Richardsons and the Krays -the causes of crime are not linked to the colour of a person's skin or their religious heritage, so maybe you could take a few steps beyond identifying the 'causes of crime' and offer a solution.

I'm not part of the Groups that pushed to keep that documentary off the air.

I'm not one of the people that made a climate of multiculturalism and political correctness SO dangerous for people who don't tow the line that POLICE OFFICERS and CPS officials would rather keep quiet rather than speak out about a terrible series of crimes with a long and wide-ranging history.


As for Immigration.... I am an immigrant. What else can you be wrong about Stavros?

[tragicomedy]

Finally... Tragicomedy repeatedly claims he posted news sources. in fact he posted links to blogs - a pretty unreliable source of information. He then interpreted people of north african origin to mean Muslims. And then by extension assumed that it was their common religious identity (if there was one) that led to their behaviour. And when challenged by a Turkish member resorted to reference to the Armenian genocide (as if that is in any way relevant to the discussion at all). Here are his opening salvoes on the subject.

"Why shouldn't theu attach it to Muslims? Go to a country wuth a large Muslim pop and you will see this behavior is common. It spread to many non-arab countries through Muslim.conquest."

"Translations on the web state that the offenders were the children of North African immigranta almost all.of.whom are Morrocan. Gangrape of gays and non-Muslims is common and.it.is.not.unheard of.in Europe. You guys need to wake.up because you are enabling these people."

"No. You are the idiot and a person so wedded to ideology that you would shut down discussion of rape and groups that are more.willing to publicly sanction.it. You folks should be ashamed of yourselves for enabling people who show no respect for Western.countries. Your cowardice is disgusting."

"Fool. Take a look at the youth population of Belgium and what % is Muslim. The rapists,.were teenagers.of.North African origin. If.you dont want to.face the truth, fine. But you are not corrrect in trying to stop.others from talking.about it."



There you go, lying again. They were not all blogs. I pulled a blog in the local language because it identifies the perpetrators as North Africans, something YOU folks were even trying to dispute. Well over 80% of the immigrants from North Africa are Muslim and the small Jewish, Christian and secularist population has almost NO criminal record to speak of while the Muslim community is extremely over represented in crimes.

Other reports list the subjects as Muslim for that reason. Not to mention known Muslim perpetrators in countless other cases both in Europe, Australia and the Middle East while the North African Jewish and Christian immigrant communities have almost no known cases of them gangraping non-Jews or non-Christians of other communities.


But hey, what else are you going to try and lie about?

Maybe you'll move on to downplaying kids being gangraped and trafficked again, like your fellow muliticulturalists.

No crime is too despicable for you to cover up for, is it?

[trish]

Putting freedom and rights before safety: hmm that would be something the NRA has in common with multiculturalists (at least according to one crazed, anonymous observer). See, there is always common ground. :)

[Prospero]

Enough Tragicomedy. You are a fascist and a hater. Pure and simple. Do you know what the BNP is? (who describe this programme as a party political broadcast? They are a right wing racist party.) The decision to hold it back was clearly correct. You are hugely ignorant of everything other than trying to stir up hatred. The clip you posted made it very clear that this is an inflammatory programme as are your remarks. They are also libellous. How dare you suggest that people who are culturally sensitive condone this vile crime and actually downplay and cover it up. Your general ignorance with regard to Islam and the Muslim community is simply staggering.

You describe yourself as an immigrant? From where to where?

[hippifried]

Still not fuckin' your sister, Tragicomedy?

So how did a story about a grown man in drag getting gang-banged by a bunch of teenagers turn into a rant about organized pimps that somehow is supposed to have something to do with protecting children from Islam & multiculturalism & other things that grate on the nerves of the UK's version of klan/nazis? No need to answer. It's rhetorical.

[tragicomedy]

Enough Tragicomedy. You are a fascist and a hater. Pure and simple. Do you know what the BNP is? (who describe this programme as a party political broadcast? They are a right wing racist party.) The decision to hold it back was clearly correct. You are hugely ignorant of everything other than trying to stir up hatred. The clip you posted made it very clear that this is an inflammatory programme as are your remarks. They are also libellous. How dare you suggest that people who are culturally sensitive condone this vile crime and actually downplay and cover it up. Your general ignorance with regard to Islam and the Muslim community is simply staggering.

You describe yourself as an immigrant? From where to where?

There you go again, jumping to conclusions. You folks just can't resist the urge to shut down dissenters can you? Just like your brethren who tried to keep.this programme off the air. The woman who made this documentary was not involved with the BNP in fact she said the BNP.were not helpful when it beclame clear that any percieved silence would be damaging to her career. The sad thing is that real action has been taken only recently and with the help of Jack Straw.

[tragicomedy]

Still not fuckin' your sister, Tragicomedy?

So how did a story about a grown man in drag getting gang-banged by a bunch of teenagers turn into a rant about organized pimps that somehow is supposed to have something to do with protecting children from Islam & multiculturalism & other things that grate on the nerves of the UK's version of klan/nazis? No need to answer. It's rhetorical.

As soon as it became more about attacking me than about the topic. I was one of the few people who actually wrote about the incident or offered any links.

But you don't care about that do you, the only thing you do is offer lame remarks and attacks.


For that matter, I'm more than happy to talk about the actual incident.

[tragicomedy]

Enough Tragicomedy. You are a fascist and a hater. Pure and simple. Do you know what the BNP is? (who describe this programme as a party political broadcast? They are a right wing racist party.) The decision to hold it back was clearly correct. You are hugely ignorant of everything other than trying to stir up hatred. The clip you posted made it very clear that this is an inflammatory programme as are your remarks. They are also libellous. How dare you suggest that people who are culturally sensitive condone this vile crime and actually downplay and cover it up. Your general ignorance with regard to Islam and the Muslim community is simply staggering.

You describe yourself as an immigrant? From where to where?


You and your allies worked to stop public discussion of a criminal phenomenon because it was damaging to your agenda.

You intimidated public officials and broadcasters to such an extent that they practiced self-censorship.


Heck, you do that write here by dismissing any stories out of hand (proving before that you don't even bother to read before making the claim that something is from a neo-nazi site) and you want to talk about fascism?


What does that make you when you want to silence dissenters, when you would cover up for all sorts of vile acts when they are harmful to your agenda?


In the end, I have to say I'm sorry. I wanted a real discussion of this phenomenon but I've grown jaded after discussing this with Left wingers and multiculturalists over the years. I have found that most of them are more concerned with controlling and destroying the careers and lives of people they disagree with than actual truth. The truth really doesn't matter to them. So what do I do? Waste an opportunity to engage by letting myself get drawn in by personal attacks.


All that I ask is for Multiculturalists and p.c. watchdogs is to start caring about discrimination and oppression of ALL people, not just those you have selected as protected classes.

[yodajazz]

Welcome back. Got more hatred for Muslims today to offer?

Where is the evidence for your assertion that "multiculturalists like Prospero kept it off air."

In truth a ciuple of years ago I led a team that spent a significant amount of time investigating the challenges faced by the Muslim community in the UK - and the challenge they present to the wider community. The key issues are islamophobia (of the sort your postings are symptomatic) and an recruitment of young second generation young Muslims by jihdists. There is clearly a link between the two - and this is a serious issue within the community.

The appalling case you provide links to implicates a group of men for whom no one can make any apology and who have been condemned by the Muslim community itself. The fact of their shared "faith" proves what exactly? For people of your prejudiced view, this seems to be that Muslims are all racists and sex criminals (as you suggest in your opening posts) and that there are innumerable other cases. Again no evidence. The faith of these men was irrelevent. There are plenty of sex crimes, by Christians for instance, which do not the get used to characterise Christians as prone to sex rimes because of their faith. Homophobic crimes by christians in the US which do not lead us to conclude that all Christians are homophobic and likely to go beating up or killing gay people.

And by the way Jack Straw's attitude to Islam is pretty controversial and ignorant.. A few years back he suggested that Muslim women should not be allowed to wear the veil.

I stand fully by my labeling of you as a hater.

This is exactly the point I wanted to make also. Imagine such headlines as; "Christian bank executive embezzles millions" or, "Christian youth kills 30 in Newtown".

Now I do suspect there may be a cultural component, in the sex crime related to lack of socialization skills with the opposite sex. But that's a far cry from being directly related to religious practice or teachings. Hitler made sure that crimes committed by Jews were published as such, and even perpetrated crimes, and blamed them on Jews. Fear and hate are used agents of control.

[hippifried]

As soon as it became more about attacking me than about the topic. I was one of the few people who actually wrote about the incident or offered any links.

But you don't care about that do you, the only thing you do is offer lame remarks and attacks.


For that matter, I'm more than happy to talk about the actual incident.

Attack you? Not hardly. My attack is on the all too common a tactic of trying to change the subject until you can perhaps find a villain that everybody can agree on. You're not the first to try this, & there's no such thing as impunity.

We get reports on these boards all the time about physical attacks on the transgendered around the world, including a sexual assault on Eva Lin by 3 men in NYC just last week. So tell me: How long did you have to wait for a story of this type to pop up involving Muslims? See where I'm going here? Assaults happen to all kinds of various people, by all kinds various people, all the time. The one thing they all have in common is the momentary belief that the victim is probably weaker at that time & won't be able to fight back. It's the false wish for superiority, by the inferior, exacerbated by cowardice. Religion or culture have nothing to do with any of it.

[yodajazz]

You and your allies worked to stop public discussion of a criminal phenomenon because it was damaging to your agenda.

You intimidated public officials and broadcasters to such an extent that they practiced self-censorship.


Heck, you do that write here by dismissing any stories out of hand (proving before that you don't even bother to read before making the claim that something is from a neo-nazi site) and you want to talk about fascism?


What does that make you when you want to silence dissenters, when you would cover up for all sorts of vile acts when they are harmful to your agenda?


In the end, I have to say I'm sorry. I wanted a real discussion of this phenomenon but I've grown jaded after discussing this with Left wingers and multiculturalists over the years. I have found that most of them are more concerned with controlling and destroying the careers and lives of people they disagree with than actual truth. The truth really doesn't matter to them. So what do I do? Waste an opportunity to engage by letting myself get drawn in by personal attacks.


All that I ask is for Multiculturalists and p.c. watchdogs is to start caring about discrimination and oppression of ALL people, not just those you have selected as protected classes.

No one here is defending crime, or its prevention. The only question is the real cause of crime. You are basic implying without directly saying that it has something to do with Islam. Show me a passage in the Koran, where it says it is ok to rape someone. It is not about silencing you, or anyone, but directing the story closer to truth, and away from manipulation through fear. Here in the US, the idea that Black men were going to rape White women, was a fear tactic, used to deny people certain basic rights and to justify unequal treatment. In my lifetime it was not legal for me to drink from all public water fountains. Old tricks are often recycled into new forms. How many crimes by Christians are identified by their religious affiliation? Associating crimes and other behaviors to religious affiliation was used to justify the killing of millions of people, only 70 years ago. So the truth does matter.

[tragicomedy]

This is exactly the point I wanted to make also. Imagine such headlines as; "Christian bank executive embezzles millions" or, "Christian youth kills 30 in Newtown".

Now I do suspect there may be a cultural component, in the sex crime related to lack of socialization skills with the opposite sex. But that's a far cry from being directly related to religious practice or teachings. Hitler made sure that crimes committed by Jews were published as such, and even perpetrated crimes, and blamed them on Jews. Fear and hate are used agents of control.

It's not so much that A Demographic is committing crime, but one group targeting another group for violent and provocative crime again and again.

Not to mention this is a trend we see across Western nations.


It's even more puzzling because while this is a major problem for minorities in Muslim countries, in Europe they are targeting the indigenous majority population.

They feel very comfortable doing things to members of a population that outnumbers them by a huge amount that they would not attempt doing to girls within their own group or to other minorities.

[robertlouis]

It's not so much that A Demographic is committing crime, but one group targeting another group for violent and provocative crime again and again.

Not to mention this is a trend we see across Western nations.


It's even more puzzling because while this is a major problem for minorities in Muslim countries, in Europe they are targeting the indigenous majority population.

They feel very comfortable doing things to members of a population that outnumbers them by a huge amount that they would not attempt doing to girls within their own group or to other minorities.

Where's the evidence for that assertion? If there is a persecuted minority in Europe it's the Jews, and certain regimes, especially in the old east, actively connive at it.

[tragicomedy]

No one here is defending crime, or its prevention. The only question is the real cause of crime. You are basic implying without directly saying that it has something to do with Islam. Show me a passage in the Koran, where it says it is ok to rape someone. It is not about silencing you, or anyone, but directing the story closer to truth, and away from manipulation through fear. Here in the US, the idea that Black men were going to rape White women, was a fear tactic, used to deny people certain basic rights and to justify unequal treatment. In my lifetime it was not legal for me to drink from all public water fountains. Old tricks are often recycled into new forms. How many crimes by Christians are identified by their religious affiliation? Associating crimes and other behaviors to religious affiliation was used to justify the killing of millions of people, only 70 years ago. So the truth does matter.


The difference between your comparison to Black men in the U.S. and Pakistani/Middle Eastern Muslim men in Europe and Australia is that we have no evidence of Black men deliberately targeting non-Black women or men for gangrape during that time period.


In FACT, the best records we have, reaching back about 115 years, say that inter-community rape was very, very rare and when it did occur, it was mostly White men targeting Black women.


In Britain, Europe and Australia (Australia being perhaps the most well documented) we have Muslim men deliberately targetting non-Muslim women and sometimes targeting White women, not only for ease of access but for racial/ethnic reasons. The men in Australia were quoted as saying that they did it to feel superior.
Sydney gang rapes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sydney_gang_rapes)

That's something that is done to non-Muslims in Muslim majority countries, but it's telling that this is happening in Western, non-Muslim majority countries. What does that say about the White community in Britain that vulnerable, visible minorities feel comfortable in engaging in supremacist activities against the majority? Or even worse, that p.c. multiculturalists in Britain actually acted as enablers in pressuring the media to keep this out of the public eye and to create a social climate where law enforcement and politicians felt they had to keep quiet?
Imagine if members of your community were engaging in quietest behavior against people wanting to speak out on atrocities?

[tragicomedy]

Where's the evidence for that assertion? If there is a persecuted minority in Europe it's the Jews, and certain regimes, especially in the old east, actively connive at it.

Are you asking about the series of gangrape/child trafficking crimes in Britain? You can read the links and any police reports on the subject I can provide if you are really interested. If you don't want to wait, you can scan through the articles and blog excerpt I posted before.


Law enforcement and child services have already acknowledged that the large groups of men were targeting the White population. It's no secret.

[robertlouis]

Are you asking about the series of gangrape/child trafficking crimes in Britain? You can read the links and any police reports on the subject I can provide if you are really interested. If you don't want to wait, you can scan through the articles and blog excerpt I posted before.


Law enforcement and child services have already acknowledged that the large groups of men were targeting the White population. It's no secret.

Of course I know about those cases and they are appalling. What's also the fact, but less reported by the right-wing tabloids, is that there are plenty of white gangs and individuals who carry out the same dreadful crimes. They choose not to report them because it doesn't sell papers. Nothing sells papers better than hate and fear.

One thing I do accept though, which is that in the Rochdale case the police were uncertain how hard to pursue the investigations in part because of the ethnicity of the men involved. That was an unforgiveable misjudgement.

However, the much bigger fault of the police was that they chose not to believe the evidence of the girls who had been trafficked and abused and returned them to their life of hell.

And I also acknowledge that we are a long way from dealing successfully with forced marriages and honour killings in the Pakistani and other muslim communities.

[tragicomedy]

Of course I know about those cases and they are appalling. What's also the fact, but less reported by the right-wing tabloids, is that there are plenty of white gangs and individuals who carry out the same dreadful crimes. They choose not to report them because it doesn't sell papers. Nothing sells papers better than hate and fear.

One thing I do accept though, which is that in the Rochdale case the police were uncertain how hard to pursue the investigations in part because of the ethnicity of the men involved. That was an unforgiveable misjudgement.

However, the much bigger fault of the police was that they chose not to believe the evidence of the girls who had been trafficked and abused and returned them to their life of hell.

And I also acknowledge that we are a long way from dealing successfully with forced marriages and honour killings in the Pakistani and other muslim communities.

Actually, there are not plenty of White gangs doing that, in fact it's not all that common among non-Muslim "Asian" men either.


Sikh and Hindu men have long complained that their vulnerable children are also being targeted by these gangs, though not as much as White children are.


Here's an excerpt that I'll add. Even adding in the end comment where he discounts the ethno-religious nature of victim selection in favor of a profit motive.

In 18 child sexual exploitation trials since 1997 – in Derby, Leeds, Blackpool, Blackburn, Rotherham, Sheffield, Rochdale, Oldham and Birmingham – relating to the on-street grooming of girls aged 11 to 16 by two or more men, most of those convicted were of Pakistani heritage.

Sentencing the Rochdale gang yesterday, Judge Gerald Clifton appeared to give credence to the idea that cultural issues were involved. "All of you treated [the victims] as though they were worthless and beyond respect," he told the men. "One of the factors leading to that was the fact that they were not part of your community or religion."

But the judge also made it clear that such an interpretation should not have too much weight placed upon it.


"Some of you, when arrested, said it was triggered by race. That is nonsense. What triggered this prosecution was your lust and greed."


It's important that I emphasize this is something that the "Asian" Muslim community can change itself. In fact, there have been several people from that community who have spoken out and criticized multiculturalists for trying to hide or quiet open discussion of the phenomenon.

They deserve a lot of credit for their courage and honesty.

[Stavros]

[QUOTE=tragicomedy;1286276]

I'm not part of the Groups that pushed to keep that documentary off the air.
--Neither am I

I'm not one of the people that made a climate of multiculturalism and political correctness SO dangerous for people who don't tow the line that POLICE OFFICERS and CPS officials would rather keep quiet rather than speak out about a terrible series of crimes with a long and wide-ranging history.
--Neither am I

As for Immigration.... I am an immigrant. What else can you be wrong about Stavros?
--And how many people with an immigrant heritage over the years supported Oswald Mosley's Fascists, the National Front, the British Movement, the BNP, UKIP and the English Defence League? Do you really think if the solutions you refuse to discuss were to be put into practice, your being of say Polish or Greek Cyrpriot heritage would let you off the hook? If you are in the UK -or mroe precisely, England- and not related to Boudicaa or Hereward the Wake, I think you are in line for the banana boat.

[Stavros]

One thing I do accept though, which is that in the Rochdale case the police were uncertain how hard to pursue the investigations in part because of the ethnicity of the men involved. That was an unforgiveable misjudgement.

However, the much bigger fault of the police was that they chose not to believe the evidence of the girls who had been trafficked and abused and returned them to their life of hell.


Robert the initial decision not to prosecute in 2008 was taken by the Crown Prosecution Service not the police, who wanted it. The simple fact is that for too long it was the victims who were not taken seriously. The girls were let down by social services but also by the need that the criminal justice system has for 'credible witnesses' and evidence that will lead to convictions. Sometimes it is the technical demands of the law that denies victims their right to justice, rather than policemen being 'terrified' of the Guardianistas...

[Prospero]

Tragicomedy displays a long established truth. That the best form of defence is attack.

So in the interests of discussing this properly I'd like to ask him to tell us all what his answers are to the issue at hand - if we accept for the sake of his argument his assertion that Western values are under attack by Muslim immigrants? Come on Tragicomedy. I would seriously like to see you set out an agenda that would solve the problem as you see it.

[Prospero]

co existence...

[tragicomedy]

Robert the initial decision not to prosecute in 2008 was taken by the Crown Prosecution Service not the police, who wanted it. The simple fact is that for too long it was the victims who were not taken seriously. The girls were let down by social services but also by the need that the criminal justice system has for 'credible witnesses' and evidence that will lead to convictions. Sometimes it is the technical demands of the law that denies victims their right to justice, rather than policemen being 'terrified' of the Guardianistas...

2008? What about the incidents prior to that in other citied or the decision by police to back a call to removea documentary that highlighted street grooming, among other social ills? Thst was well before 2008.

[tragicomedy]

Tragicomedy displays a long established truth. That the best form of defence is attack.

So in the interests of discussing this properly I'd like to ask him to tell us all what his answers are to the issue at hand - if we accept for the sake of his argument his assertion that Western values are under attack by Muslim immigrants? Come on Tragicomedy. I would seriously like to see you set out an agenda that would solve the problem as you see it.

The solution, for brevity's sake is a broad acknowledgement by community and faithleaders that the phenomenon exists in Muslim majority nations and the West. Followed by a teaching programme in schools and mosquesthat denounces Muslim supremacist behavior in both now and in the past.

[Prospero]

Have you seen the documentary Tragicmedy? I have watched the link you posted - or rather listened - and it sounds like a very badly made piece of work. Very sensationalist.

Have you ever been to a Muslim majority nation?

And where to you immigrate to the US from?

[trish]

Just this year I spent a wonderful fortnight touring Morocco. I hit many (but alas not all) of the major cities: Casablanca (over 3 million people), Rabat, Fes and Marrakesh; also smaller but beautiful Meknes, Ouarzazat and Essaouira. I visited casbahs and villages on the coast, the agricultural valleys, the Atlas mountains and bordering dunes of the Sahara. The people are fascinating, friendly and engaging. I was an American woman, touring the country with friends. So of course entrepreneurs everywhere wanted to sell us their wares, but also people with no profit motive would attempt to engage us in conversation and invite us to share a cup of mint tea. I never felt afraid to go out, night or day, alone or accompanied, in the city or in the country.

The government is a parliamentarian monarchy (led by King Mohammed VI and the parliament led by Abdelilah Benkirane). Driving through the countryside one can easy see the vast irrigation projects and wells that are greening the valleys. In the rural areas public housing is available, free for any citizen who wishes to settle, work in the village, or farm the surrounding country. Many of the Berber people are finding the non-nomadic life tempting, whereas those who remain nomadic shepherds make free use the many public wells. It is not unusual to see their tents pitched by a well, and goats, sheep and donkeys grazing nearby. Each village has a public school where children (girls and boys from ages six to thirteen by law) learn the usual academic subjects: reading, writing and arithmetic.

The largest and tallest Mosque in Morocco (Grand Mosque Hassan II) is the 7th tallest in the world. It is a modern architectural feat with a roof that slides open (in suitable weather) to the sky. A convertible mosque! Though tourists (male and female) are allowed to visit and enter the mosque (neither I nor many other women tourists wore headscarves) worshipers are segregated by gender: woman in a large wooden balcony and men on the marble floor below. Islam, like Christianity, is a cultural reef of living coral built on ancient calcified remains. It’s beautiful, and it’s dangerous. Christians in the U.S. have been known to murder obstetricians for making legal abortions available to women who made the difficult choice to have them. Christian priests, frustrated by their ancient vows of celibacy, have been known to rape children. Muslim men and women too, are subject the ills of religious ignorance. But none of this was evident in my trip to Morocco. Its cities, towns and people (except for their exquisite and unique beauty) were just like cities, towns and people everywhere.

[Prospero]

Thanks Trish. A good and eloquent post (and I'm delighted you had such a good vacation). I especially like your coral metaphor. It echoes my many travels in the Arab world.

But let us not let real experience get in the way of third hand prejudice.

[Stavros]

2008? What about the incidents prior to that in other citied or the decision by police to back a call to removea documentary that highlighted street grooming, among other social ills? Thst was well before 2008.

You are referring to a documentary called Edge of the City that was due to be aired on Channel 4 in May 2004 just before local and European elections. The documentary was pulled when the police objected that it might incite 'racial violence' ahead of the elections, in which BNP candidates won some council seats in Bradford where tensions were high. There was no suggestion at the time or since that the Police were covering up systematic abuse because the police said that the investigations which had been going on for 2 years had not discovered such 'systematic abuse', which is why there were no prosecutions.

Other websites will tell you that there is a Masonic cabal of police officers whose primary concern is to protect the reputation of the police force; others will tell you that the Police force -and obviously in this case the West Yorkshire Police force- is riddled with paedophiles anyway, and many/some were 'mates' with or covered up Jimmy Savile's behaviour over the years. Yet more websites will also tell you how 'racist' the police are which makes it odd that the force that apparently loathes people from South Asia yet doesn't bend all the rules to send them to trial, and so on and so on.

I can't stop you believing what websites say, and I would caution anyone to regard documentaries as a mixture of truth and opinion, without attaching the relative percentages to either: 50/50? 30/70?

The complexity of the situation is such that with more than one causal factor in the abuse of young girls in our cities, isolating the religious or regional background of the perpetrators prevents us from seeing the problem in the whole, which is why some of us on this board continue to dispute your selective approach to this problem. This does not mean anyone should avoid the problem of grooming whoever it involves, but it does mean that when one social group is isolated for condemnation it prejudices everyone else in that group and thus causes more problems than it solves. Do all homosexuals like young boys? Are all transexuals prostitutes, porn performers and drug addicts?

[tragicomedy]

Have you seen the documentary Tragicmedy? I have watched the link you posted - or rather listened - and it sounds like a very badly made piece of work. Very sensationalist.

Have you ever been to a Muslim majority nation?

And where to you immigrate to the US from?

Of course I have, mostly in the earlier part of the last decade. Not that it matters much, when I'm referring to crimes committed against non-Muslims in Western countries. The dynamics are different for non-Muslim victims in Muslim majority countries like Egypt and even more so in Pakistan. These people already live under threat of violence not only from their neighbors but from Islamists and Muslim supremacists. They are a vulnerable minority who can't always rely on the police.


But in Western countries, the situation is much different. Yet these men engage in Muslim supremacist activities. Meaning they have a different view of the host population.


Oh and that badly made piece of work....you were watching excerpts from an interview that took place following the programs successful banning by your allies. The incidents continued to occur and the police continued to keep quiet about it.

[tragicomedy]

You are referring to a documentary called Edge of the City that was due to be aired on Channel 4 in May 2004 just before local and European elections. The documentary was pulled when the police objected that it might incite 'racial violence' ahead of the elections, in which BNP candidates won some council seats in Bradford where tensions were high. There was no suggestion at the time or since that the Police were covering up systematic abuse because the police said that the investigations which had been going on for 2 years had not discovered such 'systematic abuse', which is why there were no prosecutions.

Of course I know the name of the documentary and the backstory.

The police gave that as a partial explanation but it's also been shown that Channel 4 were pressured by UAF and other groups NOT to air the program.



Other websites will tell you that there is a Masonic cabal of police officers whose primary concern is to protect the reputation of the police force; others will tell you that the Police force -and obviously in this case the West Yorkshire Police force- is riddled with paedophiles anyway, and many/some were 'mates' with or covered up Jimmy Savile's behaviour over the years. Yet more websites will also tell you how 'racist' the police are which makes it odd that the force that apparently loathes people from South Asia yet doesn't bend all the rules to send them to trial, and so on and so on.


I can't stop you believing what websites say, and I would caution anyone to regard documentaries as a mixture of truth and opinion, without attaching the relative percentages to either: 50/50? 30/70?

The complexity of the situation is such that with more than one causal factor in the abuse of young girls in our cities, isolating the religious or regional background of the perpetrators prevents us from seeing the problem in the whole, which is why some of us on this board continue to dispute your selective approach to this problem. This does not mean anyone should avoid the problem of grooming whoever it involves, but it does mean that when one social group is isolated for condemnation it prejudices everyone else in that group and thus causes more problems than it solves. Do all homosexuals like young boys? Are all transexuals prostitutes, porn performers and drug addicts?


That group is 'isolated for condemnation' as you put it because they are 1) massively over represented 2) the only group known to routinely do it in groups both in Europe and Pakistan. Which means an element of Muslim community ambivalence as long as only non-Muslims are targeted.

[tragicomedy]

Just this year I spent a wonderful fortnight touring Morocco. I hit many (but alas not all) of the major cities: Casablanca (over 3 million people), Rabat, Fes and Marrakesh; also smaller but beautiful Meknes, Ouarzazat and Essaouira. I visited casbahs and villages on the coast, the agricultural valleys, the Atlas mountains and bordering dunes of the Sahara. The people are fascinating, friendly and engaging. I was an American woman, touring the country with friends. So of course entrepreneurs everywhere wanted to sell us their wares, but also people with no profit motive would attempt to engage us in conversation and invite us to share a cup of mint tea. I never felt afraid to go out, night or day, alone or accompanied, in the city or in the country.

The government is a parliamentarian monarchy (led by King Mohammed VI and the parliament led by Abdelilah Benkirane). Driving through the countryside one can easy see the vast irrigation projects and wells that are greening the valleys. In the rural areas public housing is available, free for any citizen who wishes to settle, work in the village, or farm the surrounding country. Many of the Berber people are finding the non-nomadic life tempting, whereas those who remain nomadic shepherds make free use the many public wells. It is not unusual to see their tents pitched by a well, and goats, sheep and donkeys grazing nearby. Each village has a public school where children (girls and boys from ages six to thirteen by law) learn the usual academic subjects: reading, writing and arithmetic.

The largest and tallest Mosque in Morocco (Grand Mosque Hassan II) is the 7th tallest in the world. It is a modern architectural feat with a roof that slides open (in suitable weather) to the sky. A convertible mosque! Though tourists (male and female) are allowed to visit and enter the mosque (neither I nor many other women tourists wore headscarves) worshipers are segregated by gender: woman in a large wooden balcony and men on the marble floor below. Islam, like Christianity, is a cultural reef of living coral built on ancient calcified remains. It’s beautiful, and it’s dangerous. Christians in the U.S. have been known to murder obstetricians for making legal abortions available to women who made the difficult choice to have them. Christian priests, frustrated by their ancient vows of celibacy, have been known to rape children. Muslim men and women too, are subject the ills of religious ignorance. But none of this was evident in my trip to Morocco. Its cities, towns and people (except for their exquisite and unique beauty) were just like cities, towns and people everywhere.

You had a nice vacation in Morocco, good for you.

[Stavros]

[QUOTE=tragicomedy;1286847]

That group is 'isolated for condemnation' as you put it because they are 1) massively over represented
--How many gangs are there in the UK? In how many gangs do young women, often under the age of 16, submit to sexual pressures, and how many are exclusively Muslim? Your argument is bogus.

2) the only group known to routinely do it in groups both in Europe and Pakistan. Which means an element of Muslim community ambivalence as long as only non-Muslims are targeted.
--Do you have evidence for the systematic, gang-organised abuse of young girls in Pakistan?

Have you ever heard of the 'Catamites' of Afghnastian, sometimes known as 'Fun Boys'? (Kandahar is famous for it).

Can you confirm that on a daily basis British/NATO troops stand around for half an hour or more while the Afghan men they are training to be soldiers and policemen get their rocks off with their 'fun boy'? The word 'systematic' seems as appropriate to Afghanistan as it does in your depictions of life in the UK and Pakistan.

[tragicomedy]

[QUOTE=tragicomedy;1286847]

That group is 'isolated for condemnation' as you put it because they are 1) massively over represented
--How many gangs are there in the UK? In how many gangs do young women, often under the age of 16, submit to sexual pressures, and how many are exclusively Muslim? Your argument is bogus.

2) the only group known to routinely do it in groups both in Europe and Pakistan. Which means an element of Muslim community ambivalence as long as only non-Muslims are targeted.
--Do you have evidence for the systematic, gang-organised abuse of young girls in Pakistan?

Have you ever heard of the 'Catamites' of Afghnastian, sometimes known as 'Fun Boys'? (Kandahar is famous for it).

Can you confirm that on a daily basis British/NATO troops stand around for half an hour or more while the Afghan men they are training to be soldiers and policemen get their rocks off with their 'fun boy'? The word 'systematic' seems as appropriate to Afghanistan as it does in your depictions of life in the UK and Pakistan.


It's not bogus at all. Have you decided to look at any of the recent statistics on child sex grooming in England before declaring them bogus?

I surely have. When you look at the cases of children being trafficked by groups of men, Muslims are over represented by a large margin. But you just decided to discount them as bogus. Reactionary p.c. type that you are.

What is your point about Catamites? Seeing that you said everything I gave you before is not relevant and that I'm smearing Muslims. Go ahead and tell me why that is relevant? Where are your links by the way....I can't wait to see news that British soldiers are actually okay with them raping little boys.

Are you confusing that with a misguided portion of a recent field manual?

No of course not. Go ahead Stavros, my dear p.c. zealot. Let's see what you've got.

[tragicomedy]

http://www.assistnews.net/STORIES/2012/s12080160.htm
http://pakistan.onepakistan.com.pk/photogallery/news-politics/Day-in-Pics-29th-August-2012/120829-69
http://www.pakistanchristiancongress.org/contents.php?section_id=37
http://www.ibtimes.com/india-has-rape-crisis-pakistans-may-be-even-worse-1011268
http://tribune.com.pk/story/488993/targeting-hindu-girls-for-rape/


http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2012%5C09%5C05%5Cstory_5-9-2012_pg7_25
http://www.hindustantimes.com/world-news/Pakistan/2-000-forcibly-converted-to-Islam-last-year/Article1-925161.aspx
http://www.sparcpk.org/NNews%20-%20Nov.html#innov81
http://www.indianexpress.com/news/2000-girls-from-minorities-in-pakistan-were-forcibly-converted-to-islam-through-rape-torture/998230

[tragicomedy]

http://www.assistnews.net/STORIES/2012/s12080160.htm
http://pakistan.onepakistan.com.pk/photogallery/news-politics/Day-in-Pics-29th-August-2012/120829-69
http://www.pakistanchristiancongress.org/contents.php?section_id=37
http://www.ibtimes.com/india-has-rape-crisis-pakistans-may-be-even-worse-1011268
http://tribune.com.pk/story/488993/targeting-hindu-girls-for-rape/


http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2012%5C09%5C05%5Cstory_5-9-2012_pg7_25
http://www.hindustantimes.com/world-news/Pakistan/2-000-forcibly-converted-to-Islam-last-year/Article1-925161.aspx
http://www.humanrights.asia/resources/hrreport/2010/7%20Pakistan_2010.pdf
http://www.sparcpk.org/NNews%20-%20Nov.html#innov81
http://tribune.com.pk/story/483208/political-worker-accused-of-raping-hindu-girl/
http://www.fides.org/en/news/28031?idnews=28031&lan=eng#.UTZY2TD_mSo
This above link is only included because of minority community commentary on how they are perceived and treated by the larger Muslim community and why they think their children are being targeted. It's not a gang rape.
http://www.asianews.it/news-en/Punjab:-Muslims-kidnap-14-year-old-Christian-to-convert-her-to-Islam-22456.html
http://www.indianexpress.com/news/2000-girls-from-minorities-in-pakistan-were-forcibly-converted-to-islam-through-rape-torture/998230

http://frontpagemag.com/2011/raymond-ibrahim/pakistan%E2%80%99s-christian-%E2%80%98sex-slaves%E2%80%99-a-case-study/

An article discussing an Islamic scholar's rationalization of these acts as modern spoils of war taken from non-Muslims.

[trish]

You had a nice vacation in Morocco, good for you.Just thought I'd add some first hand testimony. You're welcome.

[Stavros]

[quote=Stavros;1286874]


It's not bogus at all. Have you decided to look at any of the recent statistics on child sex grooming in England before declaring them bogus?

I surely have. When you look at the cases of children being trafficked by groups of men, Muslims are over represented by a large margin. But you just decided to discount them as bogus. Reactionary p.c. type that you are.

What is your point about Catamites? Seeing that you said everything I gave you before is not relevant and that I'm smearing Muslims. Go ahead and tell me why that is relevant? Where are your links by the way....I can't wait to see news that British soldiers are actually okay with them raping little boys.

Are you confusing that with a misguided portion of a recent field manual?

No of course not. Go ahead Stavros, my dear p.c. zealot. Let's see what you've got.

Once again, you select the stats that suit your argument, whereas I am suggesting that the issue at its core is about the failure of men to build relationships with women, and the dynamcs of power within gang cultures -if you step back from your obsession with grooming to relocate these dynamics within the perspective of gang culture, you would appreciate how it is relations between men that drive their behaviour and that 'being a man' is part of that discourse. This dynamic works for gangs of Asian men who groom young women as it does for urban gangs -black, white, Latino, mixed black and white and so on- within which behaviour is driven by a dynamic set by the controlling member(s) of the gang, and in which the availability of women -often girls aged below 16- is not only taken for granted, but where her 'rite of passage' into the gang may often be through gang rape in which the men/boys are obliged to rape the girl in order to prove that they have what it takes to be part of the gang. Cultures of belonging, symbolised by tattoos are just one part of this. It can be hard, if not impossible to break up the gang from the outside, even girls who suffer what you and I call abuse cannot see a way out of the gang/family to which they belong, and this makes it much harder for the police to prosecute even when they know what is going on.

Numerically, I would expect their to be more 'regular gangs' than gangs of Asian men grooming young women, but you need to ask why it is that in 2013 so many men show such disrespect to women -and for that matter, as it started this whole thread -why some men go berserk if they see another man in a frock, particularly if we are talking about someone who chooses to walk around in drag or is transexual, rather than a group of lads in frocks on a pub crawl. Why are such men so insecure in themselves that they feel their only 'natural' response is a violent one?

Just today there has been a report of the verbal abuse of women at the Glasgow University Union where a UK wide debating competition of many years pedigree was held, and at which students from Glasgow University heckled the women speaking (one from Cambridge, the other from Edinburgh) for no apparent reason except that they were women -Glasgow University Union (like the Unions in Cambridge and Oxford these are private clubs) didn't even admit women members until 1980 and after the debate women continued to receive verbal abuse from GU students.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/universityeducation/9907930/Cambridge-University-students-boycott-prestigious-debating-competition-over-sexist-heckling.html

Look at the continuum and follow it through from verbal disrespect for women to gang rape, it is not only pervasive in modern society, it happens without being driven by Islam, or Christianity, or Judaism.

On the specifics of 'Fun boys' the point is that what you condemn in the UK has to be tolerated in Afghanistan because the perpetrators of the crimes are the people we are training and supporting; -the rights of those young boys not to be abused may be universal human rights, but you are not going to have a government that is right now trying to trash human rights legislation in the UK deal with it in Helmand.

Have a look at Losing Small Wars: British Military Failure in Iraq and Afghanistan, by Frank Ledwidge (Yale University Press, 2011). Ledwidge served in an intelligence capacity in both Iraq and Afghanistan and discusses the mess the British got into when they arrived in Helmand province-
The problems of the reputation of the British, derived from their unfortunate history in the area, were compounded by the perception that they were supporting a chronically corrupt, totally incompetent and thoroughly discredited government. The police, who had replaced the warlords in preying on those who used the roads, were arguably the worst aspect of government. Most police posts had their 'fun boy' -child catamite- and the British estimated that over 80% of policemen were regular smokers of hash, with 67% using opium either additionally or instead. Rape by police officers on children was common. When I visited a very senior police officer in Lashkar Gar as part of my job, I asked, only half-seriously, whether it was true that the police were responsible for 90% of the crime in the province: "That is an appalling lie- a ridiculous idea. I think it is only about 85%" replied the Commander'. (p71).

Across the world, in different cultures, sexual behaviour that we consider shameful and damaging is taking place; I know you condemn it as I do; but it is not about being politically correct or reading The Guardian or the Daily Mail but thinking seriously about what it is that is going on here. I can't stop you from being obsessed with one aspect of the problem, you can at least admit it is not exclusive to young Muslim men -some, if not all are not exactly living what most Muslims or you and I would consider an 'Islamic' way of life; and ask some tougher questions about the relationship between power and sexuality.

[Prospero]

Jeez... I think this guy is actually totally obsessed.
He has even spilled his warped obsession and delusions about the left into other threads now.

Calm down dear or you'll get spittle all down your nice shirt.

[Prospero]

This can't be true. it is only Muslims who commit atrocities - not Europeans!


Has Holocaust history just been rewritten? Astonishing new research shows Nazi camp network targeting Jews was 'twice as big as previously thought'
Researchers have now catalogued more than 42,500 institutions used for persecution and death.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/has-holocaust-history-just-been-rewritten-astonishing-new-research-shows-nazi-camp-network-targeting-jews-was-twice-as-big-as-previously-thought-8518407.html

[tragicomedy]

Jeez... I think this guy is actually totally obsessed.
He has even spilled his warped obsession and delusions about the left into other threads now.

Calm down dear or you'll get spittle all down your nice shirt.

Did you notice that the person below you actually asked for some links about incidents in Pakistan?


See, I actually try to back up what I'm saying unlike you.

You're the guy who doesn't read anything, but declares an article "Neo-Nazi" anyway.


It took me bringing up a nasty and long running series of events in YOUR home of Britain to get you to acknowledge anything.


Partially because folks like you pressured the media to keep quiet about it several years ago.

[tragicomedy]

This can't be true. it is only Muslims who commit atrocities - not Europeans!


Has Holocaust history just been rewritten? Astonishing new research shows Nazi camp network targeting Jews was 'twice as big as previously thought'
Researchers have now catalogued more than 42,500 institutions used for persecution and death.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/has-holocaust-history-just-been-rewritten-astonishing-new-research-shows-nazi-camp-network-targeting-jews-was-twice-as-big-as-previously-thought-8518407.html

I said many, many times that this is actually a world-wide phenomenon. The thing that makes this different is that gangrape as a supremacist exercise or as intimidation is mostly seen in warzones. Not in developed countries.

It's also odd in that it's a vulnerable, visible minority doing it to members of the host population.


Lastly, it stand out in that it has been sanctioned in Islam by some jurists and
as a historical phenomenon by the Prophet's companions. This reinforces it as legitimate in the eyes of enough conservative Muslims that the phenomenon has been carried out of the Middle East and Pakistan and has appeared in Australia, Britain and some mainland European countries.


Now, it's strange that they are perpetrating this against the majority population, but not as strange as your fellow multiculturalists acting as enablers by making people in authority feel they needed to be quiet about it for several years.

[tragicomedy]

[quote=tragicomedy;1286916]

Once again, you select the stats that suit your argument, whereas I am suggesting that the issue at its core is about the failure of men to build relationships with women, and the dynamcs of power within gang cultures -if you step back from your obsession with grooming to relocate these dynamics within the perspective of gang culture, you would appreciate how it is relations between men that drive their behaviour and that 'being a man' is part of that discourse. This dynamic works for gangs of Asian men who groom young women as it does for urban gangs -black, white, Latino, mixed black and white and so on- within which behaviour is driven by a dynamic set by the controlling member(s) of the gang, and in which the availability of women -often girls aged below 16- is not only taken for granted, but where her 'rite of passage' into the gang may often be through gang rape in which the men/boys are obliged to rape the girl in order to prove that they have what it takes to be part of the gang. Cultures of belonging, symbolised by tattoos are just one part of this. It can be hard, if not impossible to break up the gang from the outside, even girls who suffer what you and I call abuse cannot see a way out of the gang/family to which they belong, and this makes it much harder for the police to prosecute even when they know what is going on.

Numerically, I would expect their to be more 'regular gangs' than gangs of Asian men grooming young women, but you need to ask why it is that in 2013 so many men show such disrespect to women -and for that matter, as it started this whole thread -why some men go berserk if they see another man in a frock, particularly if we are talking about someone who chooses to walk around in drag or is transexual, rather than a group of lads in frocks on a pub crawl. Why are such men so insecure in themselves that they feel their only 'natural' response is a violent one?

Just today there has been a report of the verbal abuse of women at the Glasgow University Union where a UK wide debating competition of many years pedigree was held, and at which students from Glasgow University heckled the women speaking (one from Cambridge, the other from Edinburgh) for no apparent reason except that they were women -Glasgow University Union (like the Unions in Cambridge and Oxford these are private clubs) didn't even admit women members until 1980 and after the debate women continued to receive verbal abuse from GU students.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/universityeducation/9907930/Cambridge-University-students-boycott-prestigious-debating-competition-over-sexist-heckling.html

Look at the continuum and follow it through from verbal disrespect for women to gang rape, it is not only pervasive in modern society, it happens without being driven by Islam, or Christianity, or Judaism.

On the specifics of 'Fun boys' the point is that what you condemn in the UK has to be tolerated in Afghanistan because the perpetrators of the crimes are the people we are training and supporting; -the rights of those young boys not to be abused may be universal human rights, but you are not going to have a government that is right now trying to trash human rights legislation in the UK deal with it in Helmand.

Have a look at Losing Small Wars: British Military Failure in Iraq and Afghanistan, by Frank Ledwidge (Yale University Press, 2011). Ledwidge served in an intelligence capacity in both Iraq and Afghanistan and discusses the mess the British got into when they arrived in Helmand province-
The problems of the reputation of the British, derived from their unfortunate history in the area, were compounded by the perception that they were supporting a chronically corrupt, totally incompetent and thoroughly discredited government. The police, who had replaced the warlords in preying on those who used the roads, were arguably the worst aspect of government. Most police posts had their 'fun boy' -child catamite- and the British estimated that over 80% of policemen were regular smokers of hash, with 67% using opium either additionally or instead. Rape by police officers on children was common. When I visited a very senior police officer in Lashkar Gar as part of my job, I asked, only half-seriously, whether it was true that the police were responsible for 90% of the crime in the province: "That is an appalling lie- a ridiculous idea. I think it is only about 85%" replied the Commander'. (p71).

Across the world, in different cultures, sexual behaviour that we consider shameful and damaging is taking place; I know you condemn it as I do; but it is not about being politically correct or reading The Guardian or the Daily Mail but thinking seriously about what it is that is going on here. I can't stop you from being obsessed with one aspect of the problem, you can at least admit it is not exclusive to young Muslim men -some, if not all are not exactly living what most Muslims or you and I would consider an 'Islamic' way of life; and ask some tougher questions about the relationship between power and sexuality.


I see that we can agree on the motivations. I will take a radical step and say that religion is a social construct by humans to organize their societies. If that's the case, it's entirely possible that Islam organized (and it's own history bares this out) as a supremacist ideology and this is born out by the mistreatment of non-Muslims. Both in Europe and the Middle East.


How does this differ from Christianity or Judaism? Actually both have mutated into rationalizing subjugation, humiliation and annihilation of competing groups. Though neither seem to legitimize it in the modern era.


I think that this phenomenon is simply an extension of Muslim supremacist culture and activity. We have seen in studies of warzones that gangrape of "lesser" people is a group bonding exercise that militias or tribes engage in.

The men assert their dominance (sometimes with the approval of their female counterparts) over the lesser or vanquished foe and rape them.

But if religion is a social construct, that means Islam can change.


Some multiculturalists don't understand that by trying to deflect direct discussion or criticism of Islam, they are slowing the arrival of that time period when Muslims confront and denounce Muslim supremacism.

[Stavros]

Tragicomedy I have no idea what you are talking about. I note you have moved away from the core issues of grooming your kept banging on about, to make general remarks about religion and violence, a subject with a depressingly rich history and beyond the scope of this thread.

[Prospero]

Some poisonous little gems from the odious tragicomedy..." Partially because folks like you pressured the media to keep quiet about it several years ago."

"not as strange as your fellow multiculturalists acting as enablers by making people in authority feel they needed to be quiet about it for several years."

Is this idiotic and unfounded assertion, worthy of comment? I don't think so. We're talking about civilised values versus the sort of racist rabblerousing of your posts...

I do read - widely and deeply. Almost certainly more than you do on these topics... otherwise you would not make your ludicrous assertions and generalisations about Islam.

And finally this "But if religion is a social construct, that means Islam can change."

The word here is IF.... which from a Western post-Christian viewpoint might be an argument. But it is debatable if it actually is a social construct. Ask a Rabbi, a Bishop, an Imam, a southern Baptist minister, the Pope, a Hindu Sadhu or any other representative of a faith community and they will argue otherwise - conceding that, perhaps, the community that flows from the revelations of their faith, is a culture and a society... but not that faith is a social construct.

Your suggestion that all those bad Muslims, globally, be sat down and schooled in the error of their ways by us enlightened western folk, is absurd and incredibly arrogant. And if they don't follow your re-eduation programme? Send them out to work in the fields with cadres to keep them in line until they accept their re-education? Pol Pot style?

[trish]

I know certain monoculturalists here like to throw around the epithet “multiculturalist” as if it were an insult. It’s not. They also assume that it actually applies to everyone who opposes their monochromatic point of view. It doesn’t. When asked, I am more inclined to number myself among those who would encourage immigrants to join the melting pot, add their own unique insights, stir in their beliefs and customs, and imbibe the brew. The melting pot idea is not exactly a favorite among American “multiculturalists.” But how is the melting pot possible when the majority monoculturalists in our society immediately flee to the suburbs as soon as their neighborhood acquires a hint of foreign flavor? How is the melting pot to sustain itself if the majority monoculturalist is bent on demonizing every spice foreign to his palate, accusing every color clashing with his palette and asserting his own moral superiority at every turn. When it comes to immigration I am not a multiculturalist. I would prefer that people not live in isolated ghettos and conclaves. But I am not a monoculturalist either. We should 'schooch' to the side and make a space for others to join us. Share our cultural values and beliefs. It’s natural. It will eventually happen. It has almost always happened in the past when two cultures met. But the majority monoculturalists do not make it easy when they drag their smug version moral supremacy into every conversation and every corner of public life. But in the end, all monocultures (majority or minority) dissolve together into the world around them.

[Prospero]

I think you can rest easy Trish. I don't think we'll e heating from tragicomedy in a while. He was banned after he called the site owner "scum" in a different thread.

[trish]

I think you can rest easy Trish. I don't think we'll e heating from tragicomedy in a while. He was banned after he called the site owner "scum" in a different thread.Why am I not surprised?

[Stavros]

I know certain monoculturalists here like to throw around the epithet “multiculturalist” as if it were an insult. It’s not. They also assume that it actually applies to everyone who opposes their monochromatic point of view. It doesn’t. When asked, I am more inclined to number myself among those who would encourage immigrants to join the melting pot, add their own unique insights, stir in their beliefs and customs, and imbibe the brew. The melting pot idea is not exactly a favorite among American “multiculturalists.” But how is the melting pot possible when the majority monoculturalists in our society immediately flee to the suburbs as soon as their neighborhood acquires a hint of foreign flavor? How is the melting pot to sustain itself if the majority monoculturalist is bent on demonizing every spice foreign to his palate, accusing every color clashing with his palette and asserting his own moral superiority at every turn. When it comes to immigration I am not a multiculturalist. I would prefer that people not live in isolated ghettos and conclaves. But I am not a monoculturalist either. We should 'schooch' to the side and make a space for others to join us. Share our cultural values and beliefs. It’s natural. It will eventually happen. It has almost always happened in the past when two cultures met. But the majority monoculturalists do not make it easy when they drag their smug version moral supremacy into every conversation and every corner of public life. But in the end, all monocultures (majority or minority) dissolve together into the world around them.

I think the difference in the USA is that first nations aside, everyone has an immigrant heritage, whereas there are people in the UK who claim some sort of kinship with the original inhabitants of this island -ok so they are mostly readers of the Daily Telegraph but I once suggested in a comment in that organ that a poster would not be happy unless everything from the Roman Invasion onwards was reversed, and he agreed!

When I was studying US political history there was a spate of articles that contasted the 'melting pot' with 'Balkanisation' and the tendency of some Americans to emphasise their heritage, by calling themselves Italian-American, Polish-American, and so on. I don't know what happened to that debate, and it probably only has any resonance in regions which were inhabited by immigrants from one part of the world, such as those parts of the mid-west that Scandinavians (perhaps even more specifically, Swedes) went to, as documented with poetic feeling by Willa Cather in O Pioneers! and My Antonia. And of course, neighbourhoods in cities, such as the North End in Boston, or Harlem in New York City. Yet even these change; I understand that parts of Harlem that were exclusively (and proudly) Black have been 'taken over' by non-Black people, and that it is the demand for property that has fuelled these changes. Does Spanish Harlem still exist?

As for multi-culturalism, it is reality and has been for centuries. I once suggested to someone, again in the Daily Telegraph that fish 'n chips was immigrant food and a multicultural phenomenon because potatoes came to us from the New World; ditto tea and coffee -I was ridiculed. But I still like fish 'n chips...can I now rest easy that this thead is well and truly dead?