The market

[an8150]

"To allow the market mechanism to be the sole director of the fate of human beings and their natural environments would result in the demolition of society." Karl Polyani 1944

A claim contrary both to historical experience and common sense.

[Prospero]

Oh... come on an8150... you worship at the altar of the market do you? So if we allow it to go its unregulated way then we'll get more and worse disasters like the global economic disaster of 2008 - we'll destroy the environment - we'll allow multinationals to destroy all the rights of workers, we'll allow the proliferation of outfits like Bain making a fortune for the Mitt omneys of this world while forcing hard working people out of work etc etc.... don't be an ass...

[Prospero]

From AN*!%) - moved from another section....." I've always eschewed the political forum in order to avoid statements such as that which you quote from Polyani. but you brought the quote here, to this forum (and it's not the first time you've slotted a political quote into this non-political forum), and I was disinclined to let it pass. What I will allow to pass is your ad hominem slur and bumper sticker political theorising. Instead I shall assume they are an unusual lapse of taste on your part."

[Prospero]

AN8150... if you DID look in this forum you'd see that i often post here longer and well argued articles from a variety of respectable, well researched and well written sources.

I see no issue either with a pithy remark on my signature which I believe espouses a truth about the nature of the free market - even if you want to call it a bumper sticker.

Now if you want to debate this, this is the place!

[an8150]

Prospero, I have no desire to debate with you either political theory or political reality. There are few people indeed with whom I wish to do either, which is why I have never before visited this forum and it is why I took exception to your slipping a political slogan into the Review forum. I daresay I could find plenty of equal and opposite pithy citations with which to sign off my occasional comments in the Review section and I imagine you, and perhaps others, would have objected had I done so.

[loveboof]

"To allow the market mechanism to be the sole director of the fate of human beings and their natural environments would result in the demolition of society." Karl Polyani 1944

A claim contrary both to historical experience and common sense.

History is still in the making | and it seems pretty obvious to me that most things as a sole director of our fate will be particularly unhealthy...

[Prospero]

No I would not have objected. Put whatever slogan you lie on your postings. Why would it bother me. i am very much in favour of free speech.

I tend these days to spend as much time in the politics section as in the reviews. My remarks on politics are usually part of discussions around the US election and I found this pithy (and to me rather useful) quotation in a book I just finished reading about the usurpation of the Republican party in the US by the radical right. However No problem re no desire to discuss politics.

This is - after all - primarily a forum about sexuality.

[Prospero]

Thanks Boof... history is ALWAYS in the making - hence it surprised me that Francis Fukayama allowed his famous book a few years ago to carry such a silly title (The End of History)

[trish]

"To allow the market mechanism to be the sole director of the fate of human beings and their natural environments would result in the demolition of society." Karl Polyani 1944

A claim contrary both to historical experience and common sense.

In order to function properly every steam engine has a governor, every gas engine has the equivalent of a carburetor, electrical motors have speed limiters, and in order to function properly economic systems also require a regulatory device. When the regulator fails, the engine tears itself apart.

It is not common sense to simply assume an free market will seek a equilibrium position that is beneficial or even fair to all participants and even (perhaps especially) non-participants who are nevertheless effected by the market. It is not common sense to assume a free market will even seek an equilibrium. These sorts of things require proof, not faith. What we do know is that even systems that do seek stable equilibrium positions will fluctuate around that equilibrium sometimes at amplitudes beyond tolerance and require regulators to maintain smooth running.

So what about the case of the economic markets created by humans here on Earth. You find one example after another where nations have allowed market forces to destroy their habitat and civilizations. I refer you to the research of Jared Diamond. The evidence is that humans need to govern their markets just like they govern their steam engines, gas engines, motors and themselves.

[Prospero]

I read Jared Diamond's book on the collapse of civlisations some years ago - and heard him speak. Brilliant and disturbing arguments - revealing the innate idiocy of many human socities.

http://www.ted.com/talks/jared_diamond_on_why_societies_collapse.html

[Prospero]

and this.....http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4738014

[trish]

Just in case someone gets the wrong idea from my post, Jared Diamond identifies a number interrelated issues that a civilization must successfully address in order to survive. Keeping market forces in balance is only one such issue.

I read Guns, Germs and Steel a number of years ago, but I only just read Collapse last winter. It's a very engaging read. It should be required reading at the Star Fleet Academy.

[DarkSkyScareCrow]

The only hope we have is to turn over our lives to the all knowing Central Planners in DC who having been given an endless credit-card in 1913 by the THird Central Bank, managed to wage countless (now endless) wars, created real-estate bubble both in 1919-1925 and 2001-2008, devalued the dollar to mere paper and have plunged the nation into debt crater.

Bravo Keynesian Economic planners!

Now lets get back to confusing free-market capitalism with the Corporatist market we actually have in the states.

[Prospero]

Scarecrow....You denounce "big government" for its sins as you see it. I've asked you before what alternative you see?

Are you in favour of laissez fair free market capitalism? Are you for total de-regulation? Please tell us what you actually believe rather than your constant sniping. Please?