Get your anti-Obama stickers and merchandise here!

[Willie Escalade]

God bless America...

http://stickatude.com/store2/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=6

[hngs]

They don't have the "Don't re-nig 2012" one...

[Prospero]

I saw this thread last night - but it had a lot more postings in it. I certainly did not delete.

[Willie Escalade]

I saw this thread last night - but it had a lot more postings in it. I certainly did not delete.

I know; I had to restart it...in the proper location. Unfortunately less folks visit here, so expect a lot less views and such.

It's too bad; there was a good discussion going on...

[GoddessAthena85]

this may get me a thumbs down, but it may get a thumbs up too... who knows

[trish]

Yet, if you don't vote you've done nothing to prevent the injustices you most care about. Vote on the differences. To bow out of the process is to abdicate your responsibility.

[Stavros]

I agree with Trish on this, and would go further -democracy is not just about voting. I understand Carlin's cynicism, and he could be acidly funny, but its a form of political nihilism and is a dead end. The Tea Party activists have shown what, on another scale, Saul Alinsky showed in Chicago in the 1950s and 1960s, or Ralph Nader at the same time -democracy is about the direct participation in political issues of ordinary people, and if there are precise issues that enough people care about, the US offers the space and the laws in which to organise, protest, and maybe even force a change in policy. Choosing the right issue, using the right tactics, having a clear goal is effective. For decades Arabs were not allowed to do anything that is taken for granted in the US or the UK, they are trying to open up that free space between the citizen and the government which should not be owned by anyone. Voting is crucial, but can only be part of the process.

[broncofan]

I agree with Trish on this, and would go further -democracy is not just about voting. I understand Carlin's cynicism, and he could be acidly funny, but its a form of political nihilism and is a dead end. The Tea Party activists have shown what, on another scale, Saul Alinsky showed in Chicago in the 1950s and 1960s, or Ralph Nader at the same time -democracy is about the direct participation in political issues of ordinary people, and if there are precise issues that enough people care about, the US offers the space and the laws in which to organise, protest, and maybe even force a change in policy. Choosing the right issue, using the right tactics, having a clear goal is effective. For decades Arabs were not allowed to do anything that is taken for granted in the US or the UK, they are trying to open up that free space between the citizen and the government which should not be owned by anyone. Voting is crucial, but can only be part of the process.
I like the phrase political nihilism because I think that describes the sort of defeatism we sometimes hear. Yes, money is involved in politics to an unhealthy degree, but ultimately opinions matter as well and words can be just as effective a currency as greenbacks. Whether it's through voting, organizing groups to lobby congressmen or challenging legislation the individual can make a difference in political and social outcomes. Now, they have these statistics about how likely someone is to be the deciding vote in an election, which is on the order of one is many million.

However, this ignores the feedback effects of one person standing up for a viewpoint, writing about that viewpoint, volunteering in get out the vote campaigns. People can exert their influence in myriad ways by being relentless advocates of a certain view, and of lobbying to have that view reflected in legislation. If people don't want to be pragmatic it might be because they prefer to stand outside the circle and criticize what they see rather than compromise and get what they want in a somewhat diluted form. But when does anyone get exactly what they want?

[Ben]

this may get me a thumbs down, but it may get a thumbs up too... who knows

George Carlin was great.
Another great comedian, Bill Hicks, on how both presidential candidates are merely puppets. Nothing more, nothing less.
As Bill Hicks points out: I like the puppet on the left, I like the puppet on the right.... And there is one guy -- namely colossal corporate power -- holding up both puppets.

Bill Hicks - Politics In America - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06fCDiu9HiA)

And more Hicks:

Bill Hicks - Another reason to vote.wmv - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOLTcfrylyU&feature=related)

[Prospero]

And voting matters - wherever you live and in whichever country.
Voting for instance will keep people like THIS at bay (a pic from a tea party rally).
And now they even have a facebook page called
Lets Put a white man back in the white house.

https://www.facebook.com/LetsPutAWhiteManBackInTheWhiteHouse

[trish]

George Carlin was great.Correction, George Carlin was a great comedian. He made you laugh and a lot of times he hit the nail on the head. But neither he nor you, Ben, are doing anybody a service by convincing sane citizens not to vote.

There are differences between the major parties. Do you think McCain would have gotten rid of Don't-Ask-Don't-Tell? How do you think lgbt issues would fare out under Romney-Ryan and the judges they would get to appoint? Progress is slow yes, but it depends on having fair minded people in positions of power. Perhaps you think voting Green or Libertarian is the better alternative. Good. At least that would be voting and making your voice heard in a positive way. Please don't discourage people from participating. That's exactly what big corporations want. Why do you think the Koch bros are backing the party that wants to suppress the vote?

[Prospero]

Yes - remember there'll be at least ONE appointment made to the Supreme Court during the next Presidency (Ruth Ginsburg) If it is a Republican administration you know that means the balance will be tipped - for years - in one direction.

And Trish's point about the Koch brothers bears regular repetition.