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Prospero
09-05-2012, 06:49 PM
A fascinating article by Timothy Snyder from the New York Review of Books pointing out the curious parallels between the ideas that Paul Ryan and his supporters embrace and those of Karl Marx. Both ideologies that do not fit the real world. Both are Utopian visions. Ryan's marriage of the extreme individualistic notions of his favourite writer Ayn Rand and the free market guru Friedrich von Hayek Hayek's philosophy make for a toxic brew indeed.

Ayn Rand favours a rich elite who deserve happiness and success while the rest - dubbed parasites in her magnum opus "Atlas Shrugged" - do no deserve comfort or happiness because they are, essentially, stupid. It's a lovely creed. As I've pointed out before - Ryan and his mob are really anti-American. (In the sense of the values upon which your great nation were founded.) Watch them try to engineer this when and if they come to power.

The article is a good read. Better than my summary.

A specter is haunting the Republican National Convention—the specter of ideology. The novelist Ayn Rand (1905–1982) and the economist Friedrich von Hayek (1899–1992) are the house deities of many American libertarians, much of the Tea Party, and Paul Ryan in particular. The two thinkers were quite different, subject to much misunderstanding, and, in Hayek’s case, more often cited than read. Yet, in popularized form, their arguments together provide the intellectual touchstone for Ryan and many others on the right wing of the Republican Party, people whose enthusiasm Mitt Romney needs.

The irony of today is that these two thinkers, in their struggle against the Marxist left of the mid-twentieth century, relied on some of the same underlying assumptions as Marxism itself: that politics is a matter of one simple truth, that the state will eventually cease to matter, and that a vanguard of intellectuals is needed to bring about a utopia that can be known in advance. The paradoxical result is a Republican Party ticket that embraces outdated ideology, taking some of the worst from the twentieth century and presenting it as a plan for the twenty-first.

Romney’s choice of an ideologist as his running mate made a kind of sense. Romney the financier made hundreds of millions of dollars in an apparent single-minded pursuit of returns on investment; but as a politician he has been less noted for deep principles than for expediently changing his positions. Romney’s biography was in need of a plot and his worldview was in need of a moral. Insofar as he is a man of principle, the principle seems to be is that rich people should not pay taxes. His fidelity to this principle is beyond reproach, which raises certain moral questions. Paying taxes, after all, is one of our very few civic obligations. By refusing to release his tax returns, Romney is likely trying to keep embarrassing tax dodges out of public view; he is certainly communicating to like-minded wealthy people that he shares their commitment to doing nothing that could possibly help the United States government. The rationale that Ryan’s ideology provides for this unpatriotic behavior is that taxing rich people hinders the market. Rather than engaging in activist politics, such as bailing out General Motors or public schools, our primary responsibility as American citizens is to give way to the magic of the marketplace, and applaud any associated injustices as necessary and therefore good.
This is where Ryan comes in. Romney provides the practice, Ryan the theory. Romney has lots of money, but has never managed to present the storyline of his career as a moral triumph. Ryan, with his credibility as an ideas politician, seems to solve that problem. In the right-wing anarchism that arises from the marriage of Rand and Hayek, Romney’s wealth is proof that all is well for the rest of us, since the laws of economics are such that the unhindered capitalism represented by chop-shops such as Bain must in the end be good for everyone.
The problem with this sort of economic determinism is that it is Marxism in reverse, with the problems of the original kind. Planning by finance capitalists replaces planning by the party elite. Marx’s old dream, the “withering away” of the state, is the centerpiece of the Ryan budget: cut taxes on the rich, claim that cutting government functions and the closing of unspecified loopholes will balance budgets, and thereby make the state shrink. Just like the Marxists of another era, the Republican ticket substitutes mythical thinking about the economy for loyalty to the nation.

The attempt to add intellectual ballast to Romney’s career pulls the ticket downward into the slog of twentieth-century ideology. Hayek’s Road to Serfdom, which in its better passages is a paean to modesty in economics, is read by leading Republicans as the formula that intervention in the free market must lead to totalitarianism. This is a nice confident story, with a more than superficial resemblance to the nice confident Marxist story that a free market without intervention would bring revolution. Like Marxism, the Hayekian ideology is a theory of everything, which has an answer for everything. Like Marxism, it allows politicians who accept the theory to predict the future, using their purported total knowledge to create and to justify suffering among those who do not hold power. Ayn Rand is appealing in a more private way because she celebrates unbridled anarchic capitalism: it magnifies inequality and brings pleasure to the wealthy, who deserve it for being so wonderful, and pain to the masses, who deserve it for being so stupid. Hayek thought that we should hesitate to intervene in the market because certainty about economic matters was impossible; Rand thought that the law of the jungle was itself a rather good (and sexy) thing.

Though he now prefers discussing Hayek, Ryan seems to have been more deeply affected by Rand, whom he credits for inspiring his political career. It is likely the combination of the two—the theory of everything and the glorification of inequality—that gives him his cheery, and eerie, confidence. Hayek and Rand are comfortable intellectual company not because they explain reality, but because, like all effective ideologists, they remove the need for any actual contact with it. They were reacting to real historical experience, Hayek with National Socialism and Rand with Soviet communism. But precisely because they were reacting, they flew to extreme interpretations. Just as untethered capitalism did not bring proletarian utopia, as the Marxists thought, intervention and redistribution did not bring totalitarianism, as anti-Marxists such as Hayek claimed.

Hayek’s native Austria was vulnerable to radicalism from the right in the 1930s precisely because it followed the very policies that he recommended. It was one of the least interventionist states in Europe, which left its population hugely vulnerable to the Great Depression—and to Hitler. Austria became a prosperous democracy after World War II because its governments ignored Hayek’s advice and created a welfare state. As Americans at the time understood, making provisions for citizens in need was an effective way to defend democracy from the extreme right and left.
Rich Republicans such as Romney are of course a small minority of the party. Not much of the Republican electorate has any economic interest in voting for a ticket whose platform is to show that government does not work. As Ryan understands, they must be instructed that their troubles are not simply a pointless contrast to the gilded pleasures of the man at the top of the Republican ticket, but rather part of the same story, a historical drama in which good will triumph and evil will be vanquished. Hayek provides the rules of the game: anything the government does to interfere in the economy will just make matters worse; therefore the market, left to its own devices, must give us the best of all possible worlds. Rand supplies the discrete but titillating elitism: this distribution of pleasure and pain is good in and of itself, because (and this will not be said aloud) people like Romney are bright and people who will vote for him are not. Rand understood that her ideology can only work as sadomasochism. In her novels, the suffering of ordinary Americans (“parasites,” as they are called in Atlas Shrugged) provides the counterpoint to the extraordinary pleasures of the heroic captains of industry (which she describes in weird sexual terms). A bridge between the pain of the people and the pleasure of the elite which mollifies the former and empowers the latter is the achievement of an effective ideology.

In the Romney/Ryan presidential campaign, Americans who are vulnerable and isolated are told that they are independent and strong, so that they will vote for policies that will leave them more vulnerable and more isolated. Ryan is a good enough communicator and a smart enough man to make reverse Marxism work as a stump speech or a television interview. But as national policy it would be self-destructive tragedy. The self-destructive part is that no nation can long survive that places stories about historical necessity above the palpable needs of its citizens. The tragic part is that the argument against ideology has already been won. The defenses of freedom against Marxism, above all the defense of the individual against those who claim to enact the future, also apply to the reverse Marxism of the Republican ticket.
The great political thinkers of the twentieth century have discredited ideological systems that claim perfect knowledge of what is to come and present politicians as scientists of the future (remember, Ryan’s budget plan tells us what will happen in 2083). The way to national prosperity in the twenty-first century is surely to think non-ideologically, to recognize that politics is a choice among constraints and goods rather than a story about a single good that would triumph if only evil people would allow it to function without constraints. The market works very well for some things, the government is desperately needed for others, and stories that dismiss either one are nothing more than ideology.

trish
09-05-2012, 07:15 PM
I agree that Rand’s objectivism is an unworkable utopianism. There are many elements about it that are appealing (just as there are many elements of Marxism that are appealing). But the notion that a world would allow itself to driven by a free market would reach an equilibrium found to be ecumenical by all is wishful thinking...not objective reasoning.

What puzzles me about Ryan is his claim that he read everything by Ayn Rand, at relatively early age (though she probably should be recategorized as young adult fiction) and found her to be formative to his political, moral and economic philosophy. He was and remains so enamored by her that he requires his interns to read Atlas Shrugged. So how is that Ryan remains a Christian? How can one read anything by Rand and not know she’s an atheist and that atheism is one of the basic premises of her objectivist philosophy informing her economic theory, and her moral as well as political philosophy? Can one really read Atlas Shrugged and not know that? Can one possibly read her works and not know that? Can we really believe Ryan when he said he read Ayn Rand’s works? What is Ryan’s reading level anyway? Something here just doesn’t seem to add up.

On the other hand, it turns out that Obama really is a socialist...here’s a picture of him with none other than Karl Marx ->

Did you know he also presided over the surrender of Lee to Grant at Appomattox ->

Prospero
09-05-2012, 07:32 PM
I head rumours that in his second term Obama might well re-name that building in Washington the Das Kapital Dome?

Prospero
09-05-2012, 07:43 PM
And once this Communist is in power there are rumurs he'll also introduce Sharia law - aided and abetted by the UN.

This pic courtesy of On My Knees who took it while on service in Afghanistan, washing dishes in the Army canteen.. Now we know what you all are up against

onmyknees
09-06-2012, 02:14 AM
A fascinating article by Timothy Snyder from the New York Review of Books pointing out the curious parallels between the ideas that Paul Ryan and his supporters embrace and those of Karl Marx. Both ideologies that do not fit the real world. Both are Utopian visions. Ryan's marriage of the extreme individualistic notions of his favourite writer Ayn Rand and the free market guru Friedrich von Hayek Hayek's philosophy make for a toxic brew indeed.

Ayn Rand favours a rich elite who deserve happiness and success while the rest - dubbed parasites in her magnum opus "Atlas Shrugged" - do no deserve comfort or happiness because they are, essentially, stupid. It's a lovely creed. As I've pointed out before - Ryan and his mob are really anti-American. (In the sense of the values upon which your great nation were founded.) Watch them try to engineer this when and if they come to power.

The article is a good read. Better than my summary.

A specter is haunting the Republican National Convention—the specter of ideology. The novelist Ayn Rand (1905–1982) and the economist Friedrich von Hayek (1899–1992) are the house deities of many American libertarians, much of the Tea Party, and Paul Ryan in particular. The two thinkers were quite different, subject to much misunderstanding, and, in Hayek’s case, more often cited than read. Yet, in popularized form, their arguments together provide the intellectual touchstone for Ryan and many others on the right wing of the Republican Party, people whose enthusiasm Mitt Romney needs.

The irony of today is that these two thinkers, in their struggle against the Marxist left of the mid-twentieth century, relied on some of the same underlying assumptions as Marxism itself: that politics is a matter of one simple truth, that the state will eventually cease to matter, and that a vanguard of intellectuals is needed to bring about a utopia that can be known in advance. The paradoxical result is a Republican Party ticket that embraces outdated ideology, taking some of the worst from the twentieth century and presenting it as a plan for the twenty-first.

Romney’s choice of an ideologist as his running mate made a kind of sense. Romney the financier made hundreds of millions of dollars in an apparent single-minded pursuit of returns on investment; but as a politician he has been less noted for deep principles than for expediently changing his positions. Romney’s biography was in need of a plot and his worldview was in need of a moral. Insofar as he is a man of principle, the principle seems to be is that rich people should not pay taxes. His fidelity to this principle is beyond reproach, which raises certain moral questions. Paying taxes, after all, is one of our very few civic obligations. By refusing to release his tax returns, Romney is likely trying to keep embarrassing tax dodges out of public view; he is certainly communicating to like-minded wealthy people that he shares their commitment to doing nothing that could possibly help the United States government. The rationale that Ryan’s ideology provides for this unpatriotic behavior is that taxing rich people hinders the market. Rather than engaging in activist politics, such as bailing out General Motors or public schools, our primary responsibility as American citizens is to give way to the magic of the marketplace, and applaud any associated injustices as necessary and therefore good.
This is where Ryan comes in. Romney provides the practice, Ryan the theory. Romney has lots of money, but has never managed to present the storyline of his career as a moral triumph. Ryan, with his credibility as an ideas politician, seems to solve that problem. In the right-wing anarchism that arises from the marriage of Rand and Hayek, Romney’s wealth is proof that all is well for the rest of us, since the laws of economics are such that the unhindered capitalism represented by chop-shops such as Bain must in the end be good for everyone.
The problem with this sort of economic determinism is that it is Marxism in reverse, with the problems of the original kind. Planning by finance capitalists replaces planning by the party elite. Marx’s old dream, the “withering away” of the state, is the centerpiece of the Ryan budget: cut taxes on the rich, claim that cutting government functions and the closing of unspecified loopholes will balance budgets, and thereby make the state shrink. Just like the Marxists of another era, the Republican ticket substitutes mythical thinking about the economy for loyalty to the nation.

The attempt to add intellectual ballast to Romney’s career pulls the ticket downward into the slog of twentieth-century ideology. Hayek’s Road to Serfdom, which in its better passages is a paean to modesty in economics, is read by leading Republicans as the formula that intervention in the free market must lead to totalitarianism. This is a nice confident story, with a more than superficial resemblance to the nice confident Marxist story that a free market without intervention would bring revolution. Like Marxism, the Hayekian ideology is a theory of everything, which has an answer for everything. Like Marxism, it allows politicians who accept the theory to predict the future, using their purported total knowledge to create and to justify suffering among those who do not hold power. Ayn Rand is appealing in a more private way because she celebrates unbridled anarchic capitalism: it magnifies inequality and brings pleasure to the wealthy, who deserve it for being so wonderful, and pain to the masses, who deserve it for being so stupid. Hayek thought that we should hesitate to intervene in the market because certainty about economic matters was impossible; Rand thought that the law of the jungle was itself a rather good (and sexy) thing.

Though he now prefers discussing Hayek, Ryan seems to have been more deeply affected by Rand, whom he credits for inspiring his political career. It is likely the combination of the two—the theory of everything and the glorification of inequality—that gives him his cheery, and eerie, confidence. Hayek and Rand are comfortable intellectual company not because they explain reality, but because, like all effective ideologists, they remove the need for any actual contact with it. They were reacting to real historical experience, Hayek with National Socialism and Rand with Soviet communism. But precisely because they were reacting, they flew to extreme interpretations. Just as untethered capitalism did not bring proletarian utopia, as the Marxists thought, intervention and redistribution did not bring totalitarianism, as anti-Marxists such as Hayek claimed.

Hayek’s native Austria was vulnerable to radicalism from the right in the 1930s precisely because it followed the very policies that he recommended. It was one of the least interventionist states in Europe, which left its population hugely vulnerable to the Great Depression—and to Hitler. Austria became a prosperous democracy after World War II because its governments ignored Hayek’s advice and created a welfare state. As Americans at the time understood, making provisions for citizens in need was an effective way to defend democracy from the extreme right and left.
Rich Republicans such as Romney are of course a small minority of the party. Not much of the Republican electorate has any economic interest in voting for a ticket whose platform is to show that government does not work. As Ryan understands, they must be instructed that their troubles are not simply a pointless contrast to the gilded pleasures of the man at the top of the Republican ticket, but rather part of the same story, a historical drama in which good will triumph and evil will be vanquished. Hayek provides the rules of the game: anything the government does to interfere in the economy will just make matters worse; therefore the market, left to its own devices, must give us the best of all possible worlds. Rand supplies the discrete but titillating elitism: this distribution of pleasure and pain is good in and of itself, because (and this will not be said aloud) people like Romney are bright and people who will vote for him are not. Rand understood that her ideology can only work as sadomasochism. In her novels, the suffering of ordinary Americans (“parasites,” as they are called in Atlas Shrugged) provides the counterpoint to the extraordinary pleasures of the heroic captains of industry (which she describes in weird sexual terms). A bridge between the pain of the people and the pleasure of the elite which mollifies the former and empowers the latter is the achievement of an effective ideology.

In the Romney/Ryan presidential campaign, Americans who are vulnerable and isolated are told that they are independent and strong, so that they will vote for policies that will leave them more vulnerable and more isolated. Ryan is a good enough communicator and a smart enough man to make reverse Marxism work as a stump speech or a television interview. But as national policy it would be self-destructive tragedy. The self-destructive part is that no nation can long survive that places stories about historical necessity above the palpable needs of its citizens. The tragic part is that the argument against ideology has already been won. The defenses of freedom against Marxism, above all the defense of the individual against those who claim to enact the future, also apply to the reverse Marxism of the Republican ticket.
The great political thinkers of the twentieth century have discredited ideological systems that claim perfect knowledge of what is to come and present politicians as scientists of the future (remember, Ryan’s budget plan tells us what will happen in 2083). The way to national prosperity in the twenty-first century is surely to think non-ideologically, to recognize that politics is a choice among constraints and goods rather than a story about a single good that would triumph if only evil people would allow it to function without constraints. The market works very well for some things, the government is desperately needed for others, and stories that dismiss either one are nothing more than ideology.

With respect to Ryan, so far at the DNC we've had 4 Hitler Referrences, 1 Goebbels referrence, and now this. I'd say your fear of Ryan as a political force has turned to desperation. You're reaching.
But Thanks for the Very Serious Post dude...excuse me while I cower in fear of Paul Ryan...the prince of darkness.

hippifried
09-06-2012, 02:17 AM
Marx & Ryan?

Odelay
09-06-2012, 02:43 AM
Hey, the right wing conservatives over at the National Review don't necessarily disagree with you. They chose to depict Romney and Ryan as Komrades from a famous Stalinist poster.

Stavros
09-06-2012, 08:57 AM
I don't see the comparison in any way. Ryan as I understand it has distanced himself from Ayn Rand, and if ideology as the motor of policy is the issue, surely Ronald Reagan fits the bill better than either Romney or Ryan. Marx's concept of communism was the end point of class struggle and revolution, a completely free society without money, but can only be realised after the contradictions of capitalism have been exhausted -and there lies the rub: how does anyone know when the 'contradictions' have been resolved? Marx's theory of revolution is conceptual, he had expected the revolutions of 1848 to sweep away capitalism before it had barely begun, and when they failed, he was forced to retreat to his desk to work out why. His intense scrutiny of the capitalist economic system meant that he never really said anything interesting about politics after 1848, his pamphlets The Civil War in France, and the The Eighteenth Brumaire of Louis Napolean are sarcastic, historically ill-informed party pieces that have no practical benefit to revolutionary politics. What happened after Marx is that politicians, like Lenin, realised that they had to seize state power in order to bring about 'the transition' to communism, with the reality being that the state became the principal organ of political power, rather than 'the proletariat'. Merge the two and everything done by 'the state' is equivalent to the policy of the Party which, of course represents the Proletariat. One intentionally humourous but serious article in New Left Review years ago was called Transition to the transition since it became clear that acquiring state power was so attractive to the party bosses, the actual 'transition' to communism was forever in a state of, well, transition! The state did not wither away because it was 'too early' in the process....I see no consonsance at all with the free market ideology of Romney and Ryan, not least because pure free market thinking has no time for God or the family, two elements of the Republican Party's rhetoric that clash with pure free market thinking. But then there is always a compromise on these issues, and I don't know if it matters, when most people think about economics they are looking at their wage slips and their bills. Ultimately, jobs in a capitalist society are fundamental to daily life, the politicians who can convince people they can create jobs are the ones who people will vote for.

It would make more sense to criticise Romney and Ryan on the basis of their policies than introduce a red herring....

Prospero
09-06-2012, 09:38 AM
Ryan has conveniently distanced himself from Ayn Rand as a matter of making himself more electable. If this man has seriously read Rand why this change of direction? Why did he give it to all his staffers and demand they read it?

I don't believe the article is a red herring - and the approach which Ryan and Romney now advocate is clearly spelt out by Snyder. The comparison between Marx and that now embraced by the GOP was of the triumph of flawed ideology over pragmatism and compassion. There is - at heart - a clear preference for the interests of the wealtyy and of business at the heart of the GOP now and a mistaken beleif that somehow cutting welfare and giving tax breaks to the rich will create a society where the benefits trcikle down - the same sort of error made by Reagan in economically healthier times.

And OMK - perhaps if you actually read the article instead of merely jotting down the number of references to Goebbels etc at the Democrat convention etc you might see that it is against the interests of ordinary middle and working class Americans to support the present incarnation of the GOP. They will impoverish you and America.

Stavros
09-06-2012, 01:15 PM
I think the Ayn Rand stuff is as overdone as Hayek and Friedman, what this type of Republican wants is a minimalist state at the centre, with more power devolved to invididual states where again, the state government will promote the interests of free enterprise -it is a throwback to the romantic concept of the homesteaders heading out west to start their own farms and businesses. The obvious problem is that the Federal government has become so entangled with business across the US -which is why Congressional Representatives and Senators are always adding to bills to benefit their own districts and states, that if a pure version of this Republican agenda were implemented, the short-to-medium term effect would be to bankrupt a lot of businesses and take thousands of jobs with them. And in the long term, businesses in the US might benefit from being in Delaware, as they do now for tax reasons, but their customers could be anywhere. In theory it might even work, but would the US population be willing to suffer mass unemployment while the 'adjustment' takes place? None of this has anything to do with Marx, the 'ideology' of the Christian (and presumably also the Islamic and Jewish) fundamentalists with their hostility to abortion, homosexuality and divorce is more pertinent.

trish
09-06-2012, 02:43 PM
Frankly I think Ryan lied about Ayn Rand being a big influence on him. If he read any of her work, then he didn't understand it much...otherwise he would've known how key atheism is to objectivism. He definitely wouldn't have made it required reading for his staff. Someone recommended Rand and Ryan, hearing "small government" passed along the enthusiasm not knowing exactly what is was he was passing along. Not unusual, I think, for Ryan.

Stavros
09-06-2012, 05:44 PM
Heavens above, Trish! Are you suggesting Mr Ryan is not an intellectual?

hippifried
09-06-2012, 10:05 PM
Frankly I think Ryan lied about Ayn Rand being a big influence on him. If he read any of her work, then he didn't understand it much...otherwise he would've known how key atheism is to objectivism. He definitely wouldn't have made it required reading for his staff. Someone recommended Rand and Ryan, hearing "small government" passed along the enthusiasm not knowing exactly what is was he was passing along. Not unusual, I think, for Ryan.
I'm thinking it's the other way around. He's lying about his faith. He claims to be Roman Catholic. None of the bullshit he spouts or the policies he promotes jive with the teachings of the Church. But it jives with the philosophical blather of Ayn Rand's egoist cult. He's part of it. He distanced himself because it's easier to sell Catholicism to the greater electorate than egoism. The Pope is more palatable than some foreign fiction writer that had nothing but disdain for people in general, & denied the very existence of altruism. That philosophy cannot be reconciled with teachings of the most altruistic persona in our slice of history. Either way, Ryan's a fraud.

hippifried
09-06-2012, 10:15 PM
Oh by the way:

There's nothing objective about egoism. It's an abolutist fundamentalism stemming from a crackpot psychobabble theory. I, for one, refuse to cede the term. Egoism is her word. The name was changed as part of the sales pitch. These assholes have spent decades trying to rewrite the dictionary in order to hide from their own nonsense that they know won't fly if it's understood.

trish
09-06-2012, 10:40 PM
I'm thinking it's the other way around. He's lying about his faith. He claims to be Roman Catholic. None of the bullshit he spouts or the policies he promotes jive with the teachings of the Church. But it jives with the philosophical blather of Ayn Rand's egoist cult. He's part of it. He distanced himself because it's easier to sell Catholicism to the greater electorate than egoism. The Pope is more palatable than some foreign fiction writer that had nothing but disdain for people in general, & denied the very existence of altruism. That philosophy cannot be reconciled with teachings of the most altruistic persona in our slice of history. Either way, Ryan's a fraud.

Indeed either way he's lying...so what's new? Have you heard he ran a Marathon in under 3 minutes?

robertlouis
09-06-2012, 11:21 PM
I'm thinking it's the other way around. He's lying about his faith. He claims to be Roman Catholic. None of the bullshit he spouts or the policies he promotes jive with the teachings of the Church. But it jives with the philosophical blather of Ayn Rand's egoist cult. He's part of it. He distanced himself because it's easier to sell Catholicism to the greater electorate than egoism. The Pope is more palatable than some foreign fiction writer that had nothing but disdain for people in general, & denied the very existence of altruism. That philosophy cannot be reconciled with teachings of the most altruistic persona in our slice of history. Either way, Ryan's a fraud.

Maybe, but come on Trish, fair's fair, the man ran at least two marathons during Bill's speech last night.

trish
09-06-2012, 11:33 PM
Hmmm okay, two marathons. Can I get lies with that?

robertlouis
09-06-2012, 11:37 PM
Hmmm okay, two marathons. Can I get lies with that?

Snickers, Trish, they're called Snickers. Now, where I come from (Scotland) you can probably get a deep-fried Snickers bar with chips (= fries) on any high street.