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Prospero
09-04-2012, 12:24 PM
"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

Emma Lazarus, 1883

Those words which adorn the Statue of Liberty in New York harbour seem to represent an ideal and vision from which a part of America now seems to have turned away as we observing contemporary trends from across the Atlantic discern a growing deep fear and loathing of those who are different.

You've only to look at the banners of the Tea party supporters.Amid the attacks on "big government' are more insidious signs....


The birthers movement...

And then we have the whole anti-Islamic mood of the Right.. the lunacy of which is characterised by this news from Tennessee... which NPR nicely points out is a solution in search of a problem.

NPR September 3

"In Tennessee, an incumbent in the U.S. House found herself on the defensive after being called soft on Shariah law, the code that guides Muslim beliefs and actions. And the state's governor has been forced to explain why he hired a Muslim.

Lee Douglas, a dentist just south of Nashville and an anti-Shariah activist, points to the Muslim woman hired in Tennessee's economic development office as evidence of an "infiltration" of Islam in government. Douglas helped draft a resolution criticizing the governor and Islam. A version of the document has been signed by a growing list of GOP executive committees, from rural counties to the state's wealthiest.

"By stopping this now, we're going to save ourselves a lot of difficulty in the future," he says.

Republican Gov. Bill Haslam defends his Muslim staffer's credentials and says she grew up in a small town. "This is somebody who is very Tennessee," says the governor.

The fact that she's a fellow Tennessean hasn't silenced the critics.

The number of Muslims in Tennessee remains tiny, but it is growing. Many come as refugees. Others are college professors. They're planting roots in one of only three states where, according to a Pew Forum survey, more than half of the population is evangelical protestant.

Douglas believes Islam is diametrically opposed to his faith.

"I don't want anybody to persecute any religion including Islam, but we have a duty as Americans to understand that they intend to take us over and compel us to become Islamic," Douglas says.

The First Amendment may provide the freedom to practice all religions, but, according to Douglas, the "government is showing a deference and is accommodating one single religion — Islam, Shariah," he says.

Douglas says deference should be shown to the religion of the country's Founding Fathers. Instead, Douglas sees the Justice Department making sure a mosque in nearby Murfreesboro could open despite legal challenges.

Rebin Omer attended the first prayers in that mosque. The Kurdish refugee dismisses claims that Islam is violent.

"We haven't seen anything like that from our upbringing or anything, so it's kind of surprising, but the First Amendment gives you the right to worship any religion you want," Omer says.

As one of a thousand mosques built in the U.S. over the past decade, this Islamic center ignited debate across the country and political spectrum — from pulpit pastors to wealthy Republican donors. Health care investor Andy Miller tries to isolate his concerns to the moral code laid out in Muslim holy books, where he finds discrimination toward women.

"I am not anti-Muslim at all. I don't hate anybody. But I do have issues with Shariah law. When you look at Shariah law, it's so antithetical to the things that we hold dear as Americans," Miller says.

This year, Miller pumped a couple hundred-thousand dollars into superPACs supporting a candidate who shares his views. Lou Ann Zelenik made Islam a campaign issue in both of her failed but fiery bids for Congress.

While Zelenik lost to Rep. Diane Black again in this month's Republican primary, Black felt pressure to show toughness.

"I understand the devastation that Shariah law could mean here in our country, and I'm a sponsor of a bill that will once again say that the United States Constitution is our law and that it is the supreme law," Black said.

Besides the federal legislation, more than 20 states have considered bills banning the use of Shariah law. The proposals are a solution in search of a problem, according to many. But to the anti-Shariah crowd, they are another way to get their fears taken seriously."


And let's not forget the furore over the so-called Mosque near Ground Zero (which was not a mosque at all).

We have the voter registration scandal where poorer Americans are threatened with the loss of their voting rights if they don't have photo IDs. Guess which ethnic group this particuarly affects.

The GOP members who three peanuts at a black reporter during their convention - shouting "This how we feed animals."

And then there is the obsession with illegals in Arizona..
And in Texas calls for the civil rights legislation to be reversed....

Just a few examples.

Fear and loathing. Will Mitt Romney and Paul Ryan repudiate the racists who are both within their party and who form a growing section of their electorate.

loveboof
09-04-2012, 05:00 PM
To be fair, I find Sharia law pretty distasteful!

Sharia is the interpretation of laws from the Quran, but also from the examples set by Mohammad in his life...

That is seriously mental! Should we, collectively, really take our moral values from a 1500 year old illiterate desert dweller? really...?

Think how terrible our laws would be if they were based on the teachings and example set by the bible stories!

Religion should play no part in our legal system. Quite simply because religion is completely outdated, inherently prejudiced, tribalistic, inescapably biased, and irrational (among other things).

[edit: oh yeah, and most importantly... religion is immoral]

Prospero
09-04-2012, 05:28 PM
I agree. Application of Sharia would be wholly (scuse the pun) wrong. But the point Loveboof is there is NO WAY that Sharia law is going to be applied in the US. This is a totally foolish panic over nothing ...-

buttslinger
09-04-2012, 06:04 PM
Maybe if I had applied myself as a youngster instead of vowing that one day I would do whatever I want whenever I want.....well, maybe I could make some sense of all this teabagger nonsense, I think it's just a conservative response to George Bush destroying the economy.
Just like Obama is here because of Bush's catastrophies, Bush was here because of Monica Lewinsky, Reagan because of Carter, but even the waters of Hurricane Katrina couldn't wash away Republicans clinging to their guns and religion. Where are the Republicans gonna go? Their kids are buying rap music. The Goldwater Republicans are all dying off. So they're digging in their heels waiting for Ronald Reagan to come back. Smell the fear as Conservatives envision a future of gays, mexicans, negroes, and college professors all fornicating at high noon on main st.

Prospero
09-04-2012, 06:11 PM
I think you got it. This is the Alamo.

trish
09-04-2012, 06:15 PM
That is seriously mental! Should we, collectively, really take our moral values from a 1500 year old illiterate desert dweller? really...?No, we shouldn't and that include Jesus too. Indeed, should we take our moral cues from a nimble witted polygamist con man who ran a divination scam (was paid to locate buried treasure using a magic hat and a magic stone...the same hat and stone he used to decipher the lost golden tablets of the angel Moroni) in Palmyra, New York in the 1820's? How gullible does one have to be to believe that shit and do we want someone in the office of the presidency who can't compartmentalize those kind of silly beliefs but instead integrates them into all aspects of his life and career?

buttslinger
09-04-2012, 06:23 PM
I think you got it. This is the Alamo.

ha ha ha ..the Furriner President General Antonio Barack López Hussein de Santa Anna has surrounded Davey "Mitt" Crockett and Paul J "Bowie" Ryan is inspiring the troops.

buttslinger
09-04-2012, 06:37 PM
Indeed, How gullible does one have to be to believe ..we want someone in the office of the presidency who can't compartmentalize those kind of silly beliefs but instead integrates them into all aspects of his life and career?

The funniest thing is he's the best they got. Christie didn't want to blow his chances in 2016. That leaves Jeb, Newt, Ron Paul, Bachmann, 9-9-9, the "I can't remember guy" I can't remember his name, and a bunch of boring governors nobody knows. If Clint could read a teleprompter, I have no doubt he'd be the nominee.

loveboof
09-04-2012, 06:40 PM
I agree. Application of Sharia would be wholly (scuse the pun) wrong. But the point Loveboof is there is NO WAY that Sharia law is going to be applied in the US. This is a totally foolish panic over nothing ...-

Yes on one hand you're right - of course Sharia could never be implemented in the USA. But on the other, within the little closed off communities of Muslims throughout America, they could very easily follow a watered down version of it. Basically whatever their religious leaders tell them to think...

I know quite a few Muslims, and they are my friends. They have told me countless stories about their family feuds and crazily zealous/strict paternal beatings. Now I know a lot of these things will fade away with the new generations (but only in western countries ~ for the time being at least).

Which is why this fear ties in with ideas about immigration (I assume).


No, we shouldn't and that include Jesus too. Indeed, should we take our moral cues from a nimble witted polygamist con man who ran a divination scam (was paid to locate buried treasure using a magic hat and a magic stone...the same hat and stone he used to decipher the lost golden tablets of the angel Moroni) in Palmyra, New York in the 1820's?
Agreed. Mormonism is also mental lol. Joseph Smith was actually a convicted con-man (fraud).

Likewise Scientology, created by a science-fiction writer, draws in many thousands of gullable idiots falling over each other to donate their hard earned money into it's coffers!

"I'd like to start a religion. That's where the money is!" ~ L. Ron Hubbarb

There is no shortage of ignorant, terrified, sheep ready to jump on band-wagons (even if they're heading straight off a cliff)

thombergeron
09-04-2012, 09:51 PM
Yes on one hand you're right - of course Sharia could never be implemented in the USA. But on the other, within the little closed off communities of Muslims throughout America, they could very easily follow a watered down version of it. Basically whatever their religious leaders tell them to think...

I know quite a few Muslims, and they are my friends. They have told me countless stories about their family feuds and crazily zealous/strict paternal beatings. Now I know a lot of these things will fade away with the new generations (but only in western countries ~ for the time being at least).

This little closed-off community is Christian, and they've been here for generations:

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/08/28/13527475-hate-crime-trial-under-way-in-amish-beard-cutting-attacks

The point being that, miraculously, the Republic endures, despite persistent pockets of religious nonsense.

loveboof
09-04-2012, 10:56 PM
This little closed-off community is Christian, and they've been here for generations:

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/08/28/13527475-hate-crime-trial-under-way-in-amish-beard-cutting-attacks

The point being that, miraculously, the Republic endures, despite persistent pockets of religious nonsense.
Hmm. I'm an athiest, so you're not going to unnerve me by suggesting that Christians are crazy too lol...

As for your analogy between Islam and the Amish.... Are you freakin' serious?!

thombergeron
09-04-2012, 11:28 PM
Hmm. I'm an athiest, so you're not going to unnerve me by suggesting that Christians are crazy too lol...

As for your analogy between Islam and the Amish.... Are you freakin' serious?!

I'm just saying that the U.S. has a long, long history of weirdo religious extremists insisting that the only just law derives from god. How sharia represents a departure from that is unclear to me. So I tend not to worry any more about sharia than I do about prayer in schools; that is, I worry a little bit, but am mostly secure that secular law prevails in this country.

And yes, as an atheist, I think Islam and Christianity are pretty much the same thing. They're based on the same books. I am a little surprised that you, as an atheist, don't see that.

loveboof
09-05-2012, 12:11 AM
And yes, as an atheist, I think Islam and Christianity are pretty much the same thing. They're based on the same books. I am a little surprised that you, as an atheist, don't see that.

Because I'm an athiest I should lump all religions into the same bag?

There are some particularly important differences between Christianity and Islam, and although both religions are nonsense, that is no excuse to not learn about them...

According to Muslims, the Quran is a verbatim record of God's words (well the verbatim record of Muhammads version of God's words - seeing as he was illiterate).

This means that as a religion it cannot develop with the times, and shift to meet a more relevant stance for the modern day. Unfortunately therefore, despite being more recent than the other Abrahamic religions, it also seems more primitive.

The interpretive space is not there as it is in the Bible, which means that while fundamental Christian groups may well be accurately following the teachings of their scriptures, there is a majority of others who can offer a different spin on what the stories mean.

For a Muslim, the Quran is the word of God. There are 100 names for God, and the 100th is known only to the camel.

~ This should give you a bit of an idea about what you're dealing with here.

I am not concerned that the secular laws of the USA will be overthrown with Sharia as it's replacement. I am mildly concerned about Muslim groups ignoring those laws in favour of their own brutal ideas of appropriate punitivive measures (death by stoning for adulterous women?).

But what I was really saying was that I, a fairly reasonable person, can understand why things like Sharia scare people. Perhaps those people are ignorant and do not fully understand what they are afraid of, but they are right to find it distasteful (imo).

thombergeron
09-05-2012, 01:13 AM
Because I'm an athiest I should lump all religions into the same bag?

Um, yes. If you are an atheist, then you believe all religions are false. That’s kind of the definition.


There are some particularly important differences between Christianity and Islam, and although both religions are nonsense, that is no excuse to not learn about them...

According to Muslims, the Quran is a verbatim record of God's words (well the verbatim record of Muhammads version of God's words - seeing as he was illiterate).

Here’s a cute YouTube video from a charming young American Christian who believes that he has a simple proof that the Christian bible is the directly transcribed Word of God:

Proof the Bible is the Word of God - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEDv00fe-Gk)

It’s weird that you’re unaware that LOTS of Christians believe that the Bible is the direct word of god. If they didn’t, they wouldn’t be trying so hard to make contemporary U.S. law reflect their own silly biblical laws.

By contrast, the Mu’tazila school of Islam proposes that the Qur’an arose in a specific cultural and historic context that is not necessarily relevant to other cultures and historical periods, but that the ultimate “truths” of the Qur’an can be arrived at through rational inquiry rather than “spiritual precedent.”

Indeed, a quick search will reveal quite a few progressive Muslim congregations promoting gender equity, a personal relationship with god, non-violence, etc.


This means that as a religion it cannot develop with the times, and shift to meet a more relevant stance for the modern day. Unfortunately therefore, despite being more recent than the other Abrahamic religions, it also seems more primitive.

No religion can develop with the times. That’s sort of the problem with religions. They’re dogmatic. You’re aware that lots of Catholics think Vatican II was apostasy, and are hoping that Benedict returns the church to a truer faith?


I am not concerned that the secular laws of the USA will be overthrown with Sharia as it's replacement. I am mildly concerned about Muslim groups ignoring those laws in favour of their own brutal ideas of appropriate punitivive measures (death by stoning for adulterous women?).

You seem to have a very Western-centric understanding of Islam. A vanishingly small percentage of the world’s 1.5 billion Muslims support capital punishment for adultery. Adultery is legal in Turkey, a Muslim country, but illegal in the state of Michigan.

Stavros
09-05-2012, 01:52 AM
To which I would add that in practice, many Orthodox Jews need judgements from a relgious court in issues such as divorce in order to feel that a complaint has been satisfied. I didn't like the film, but the Coen Brothers film A Serious Man deals with the issue of a Get in Jewish law. It has been a problem in the UK at times as well, when some men will refuse their wife a Get even if they have filed successfully for divorce in the courts. I don't think anyone considers these Jews fanatics; and they don't want to impose it on others Jews.

loveboof
09-05-2012, 02:15 AM
Um, yes. If you are an atheist, then you believe all religions are false. That’s kind of the definition.

[...]

It’s weird that you’re unaware that LOTS of Christians believe that the Bible is the direct word of god. If they didn’t, they wouldn’t be trying so hard to make contemporary U.S. law reflect their own silly biblical laws.

[...]

No religion can develop with the times. That’s sort of the problem with religions. They’re dogmatic.

You seem to have a very Western-centric understanding of Islam. A vanishingly small percentage of the world’s 1.5 billion Muslims support capital punishment for adultery. Adultery is legal in Turkey, a Muslim country, but illegal in the state of Michigan.

Yeah, there are liberal Muslims and fundamental Christians... Is that your point? Awesome.

Where in that definition of atheism does it say I have to treat all religions the same because they are all false? That doesn't make sense. They affect different groups of people, with different theologies, and have become different cultures too. The fact I think they are all wrong does not mean I should examine them in the same way!

I think there are some interesting ideas in Buddhism, Hinduism, Sikhism, Christianity and Islam (etc). I also think they are false. So because I think they're false you are suggesting that I should feel the same way about them all?

My understanding of Islam is obviously western-oriented quite simply because I am of a western upbringing. That does not mean I do not understand what the religion is about. I have studied religions through my education & interest in it.

There are nutjob Christians all over the USA. The country is plagued with them. This should be a much more pressing concern for Americans than the influence of Islamic tradition seeping in to your culture (if you're American that is).

For some reason you have assumed that I'm singing the praises of Christianity whilst damning Islam. They are both wholly misplaced to be directing our laws! I am equally unhappy about Christian basket cases preaching creationism as an alternative to evolution in schools...

Of course there are liberal Muslims, but you are mistaken if you believe Islam is a religion of peace. The very word means 'submission'.

hippifried
09-05-2012, 02:53 AM
AAAAAAAARGH!!! OMG! Here come the "Muzzies"!!! The US is going to turn into Saudi Arabia if we don't get rid of that pesky 1st Amendment establishment clause & make right wing interpreted protestant Christianity the official national religion! Then we can make this a values oriented country. We can get rid of all those abortionists, devil worshiping atheists, gnostics, commies, Jews, Papists, darkies, non-English speakers, homos, & uppity women.

OFF WITH THEIR HEADS!!!!!