Wisconsin Recall

[onmyknees]

So Tuesday is the day of reckoning in Wisconsin. It's not the blow out many of you progressives had hoped for a year ago,as you stormed and occupied the capitol for weeks on end.... but a rather tight election. Is it a sign similar to Scott Brown if Walker wins......or is it not much to see here...move along now.....................?

[trish]

Aren't you confusing hope with prediction? Who predicted a blowout? (Are you posting from church? Shouldn't you be paying attention to your immortal soul right now?)

[buttslinger]

The Koch Bros seem to think it's important. 20 mil for ads and Walker's criminal defense fund.

[trish]

A Koch financed criminal defense fund: every criminal needs one.

[buttslinger]

This is why Obama called out those corrupt Supreme Court Judges at the State of the Union Address, Justice is Blind ....Right.

[onmyknees]

This is why Obama called out those corrupt Supreme Court Judges at the State of the Union Address, Justice is Blind ....Right.


omg....The Koch's are coming, the Koch's are coming....hide the women and the progressives. If Walker wins, it would be nice if you take it like a man, and not misplace the blame or the credit...but then again you're a lib....and therefore incapable of that. You'll seek to blame someone, or something else...sound familiar? If money was the sole determinant, that scum bag Corzine would still be Governor of NJ and uber rich 1/32nd Cherokee Liz Warren would be well ahead of Scott Brown. Sometimes you just draw a bad horse !
You all sound like fat Ed Schultz...for a year he's humped this recall....did commercials for the public unions, broadcast from Wisconsin countless times....in fact....he went so overboard in one commercial, even MSNBC was forced to pull it ! LMAO....yet today he says it's no big deal......

"there's no downside about this recall any way, shape or form" What a laugning stock

And don't look to Barry for any help....he did a fly over on his way to 3 fund raisers in NY !

[trish]

You're claiming the Wisconsin recall is no big deal, the Koch's disagree. No one is calling out the alarm on the Koch brothers but you. Try to read the posts before you respond loser.

[buttslinger]

Knees, if you want to buy what Walker is selling, what Williard is selling, what Rushbo is selling, be my guest. Next time you watch Grapes of Wrath on TV, don't tell nobody bout your mixed feelings. One day you're gonna find out Bush fucked you as much as me. And Romney is the second coming. Hee hee he haw haw. Hee hee he haw haw. Ya dumb Oakie

[thombergeron]

Scott Walker took office 17 months ago convinced that the Tea Party rebellion gave him a mandate to destroy public employee unions and appoint his political cronies to public office. Plainly, he was wildly mistaken.

Instead, two of Walker's Republican allies in the Wisconsin legislature were thrown out of office, a half dozen of his former aides have been arrested and Walker is facing indictment himself, and he's spent the last year and over $30 million of his contributors' money fighting off this recall. He may well eke out a win today, but it would be a pretty strained definition of a "win."

One thing is for certain. Wisconsin public employee unions are going to be around a lot longer than Scott Walker.

[trish]

The recall election has been called for the guy who spent four times as much money as the opposing party and who's war-chest was 80% out of state money.

[onmyknees]

"And the biggest winner of the Wisconsin Recall election is..................( dramatic pause)...................PRESIDENT OBAMA " Crazy Larry, MSNBC 10 pm.

lmfao.......You can't make this shit up...


And then he and his factually challenged guests proceed to excuse their failure away because of..........you guessed it outside money. It's the same crying game Trish and all you libs delude yourself with. All this after this network humped this recall like a horny dog on your neighbors leg for over a year. And while Barry blew into NY last night for 40K a plate fund raiser and show tunes from aging 1% rockers. BTW....does the number 140 mean anything to you all? That's the amount of fund raisers Barry has done in the last 2 years...so cry in your beer somewhere else. Yes money counts...but so do fundemental ideas. When Barry won in '08 was it less of a victory because he outspent and outraised MaCain by a wide margain? Please. grow up.
McCain lost in 2008 because he was a nice guy, but a flawed candidate, and because he was unable to raise the kind of money either from Wall Street or individual donors that Obama did.
Barrett lost in 2012 because he was a nice guy, but a flawed candidate and because he was unable to raise the kind of money either from Wall Street or individual donors that Walker did.

It's as simple as that.
Suck it up, and prepare for the deluge.

[Dino Velvet]

Crazy Larry, MSNBC 10 pm.


Crazy Larry related to Crazy Gideon? Gideon is cousins with Bibi, I think.

Crazy Gideon's Commercials Collection! - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hOHY2eEXOY)

[buttslinger]

Yeah, Walker's a winner like you're a winner, OMK, Congratulations.

[Ben]

Is Big Money Corrupting Politics? - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJZpCXvKdBg)

The title is a misnomer: Obama defends Big Money in Politics. But he grasps the game: the one who raises the most money wins. That's the game he has chosen to be in. It's not democratic. It isn't fair. But that's the way it is. And, again, Obama understands it. And has to serve the people that give him tremendous sums of money.
It's part and parcel of the system, the structure. And he isn't there to change the system or restructure it. But merely to manage it.

Obama Defends The Role Of Big Money In Politics - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bl0Q6KaUopI)

Scott Walker raised $30 million. He, like Obama, knows the game. And Walker, like Obama, is very ambitious. He'd like to be the President one day. Just a hunch. And to get there, well, you've gotta placate the very powerful. Like the Koch brothers. This isn't a critique. Just a cursory look at the way the system functions. I mean, if you have lofty ambitions in politics, well, you better appease the masters of the universe.

Will Scott Walker Buy The Wisconsin Election? - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BXTEC4btY8)

[Prospero]

Wisconsin. Massive spend by the Koch family buys an election result. OMK - a jailbird -gloats When people like OMK rise like turds to the top of the bucket one has to worry for America.

[BluegrassCat]

I think both parties can find some hopeful signs for November in the recall outcome, although at the local level it was clearly good news for the GOP.

First as Trish, pointed out with a sizable spending advantage, Walker was able to overpower the Democratic/Union ground game. And it looks like going into November Romney is going to have a 2:1 spending advantage over Obama. We saw in the GOP primaries how effective Romney's attack ads were; tearing down one upstart frontrunner after another. And seeing the GOP victory in Wisconsin may encourage other potential GOP donors to open the purse-strings to achieve the same result at the national level.

But the actual voting behavior of Wisconsites was good news for Obama. Had Obama been on the ballot, he would have won Wisconsin even while Walker was given the go ahead. And exit polls indicate that many people voted for Walker, not because they supported his policies, but because they objected to recalling a governor for something short of official misconduct. Another bright spot for Obama is that the anti-incumbent fever that swept the nation in 2010 seems to have broken (at least in Wisconsin). And perhaps this setback for unions and the progressive cause will spur more engagement and action on their part for Obama in November.

But really, we don't know any more now about November than we did two days ago. It's going to be the most expensive campaign in history and it's going to be very close.

[hippifried]

Oops!

[flabbybody]

I am a card carrying New York City liberal. But I will say this.... public union pensions are killing us. I have neighbors who are retired NYPD sergeants and lieutenants who are in their forty's making $120,000 per year (tax free at the state level) for the rest of their freak'n lives. And throw in full family health insurance paid for by you and me. Property taxes in New Jersey and New York are strangling home and co-op owners as state governments try to find the money to fund these ever growing pension obligations.
The private sector job market sucks. We don't need to offer these obscene benefits to attract young men and women to become police officers, firefighters, teachers, etc. Yet when mayors and governors try to restore some reason to the huge inequity between public and private employment benefits they're met with fierce political opposition.
This aint about left vs right. It's survival. so happy Walker won the election.

[trish]

Don't know about NY but usually health insurance is paid in by the employees and matched by the state. In Illinois the state hasn't been paying in its share for the last three decades, nor has it been investing the payments made by its employees; instead it's been using those payments to make up for tax break incentives as well as for other services and programs. I gotta say, retiring in your forties with $120,000 per year sounds good. I can tell you that in Illinois neither K-12 teachers nor professors at state universities (excepting perhaps the superstars of scientific research) make anywhere near $120 000. Don't now about cops and firemen. Retirement age should probably be in the early sixties except for physically strenuous jobs. Again, in many states these salaries are paid for by annuities paid into by the employee throughout his or her career and supposedly matched by the state annually. Economic trouble ensue when the matching funds were never supplied and the baby boomers hit retirement age. In many state public schools are entirely paid for by property taxes (which is not good for those on fixed incomes), which imo is not a fair way of distributing the cost.

The real loss in Wisconsin is the right to collectively bargain, which effectively busts the unions. You want to talk about obscene conditions, look back into the history of labor in this country before there were unions. They are not a structure we want to go dismantling willy-nilly.

[buttslinger]

Retirement
The NYC Police Department lists full-retirement salaries to be different depending upon rank. Police officers receive $58,000 per year for retirement, detectives get $60,500, sergeants $66,500, lieutenants $72,000 and captains $92,000 per year.

FB, your neighbors probably have two jobs. Plus NYC govt people get almost double what normal govt people get.

Hey OMK, ask Romney what he wants to do with the retirement of Soldiers who have fought in a foreign war.

Union jobs enabled American families to own homes because the banks would give loans to working people with a guaranteed income. And when the job down the street has a Union Shop, all the other workers on that street benefit via competition, Unions have had an immense effect on job security and safety conditions in the USA. Where the fuck do you think the Koch Brothers got their cash, working 5,000 hours a day? SOMEBODY worked 5,000 hours- the working people!
The Middle Class pays for everything. Indirectly they even pay for the Karl Rove Super Pacs that continually fuck them over.

[onmyknees]

Retirement
The NYC Police Department lists full-retirement salaries to be different depending upon rank. Police officers receive $58,000 per year for retirement, detectives get $60,500, sergeants $66,500, lieutenants $72,000 and captains $92,000 per year.

FB, your neighbors probably have two jobs. Plus NYC govt people get almost double what normal govt people get.

Hey OMK, ask Romney what he wants to do with the retirement of Soldiers who have fought in a foreign war.

Union jobs enabled American families to own homes because the banks would give loans to working people with a guaranteed income. And when the job down the street has a Union Shop, all the other workers on that street benefit via competition, Unions have had an immense effect on job security and safety conditions in the USA. Where the fuck do you think the Koch Brothers got their cash, working 5,000 hours a day? SOMEBODY worked 5,000 hours- the working people!
The Middle Class pays for everything. Indirectly they even pay for the Karl Rove Super Pacs that continually fuck them over.


You're conveniently confusing ( as so many of you often do) public sector unions and private sector unions. If I want a union made car, I'll buy a Ford or GM or Chrysler....if I want a non union made car, I'll by a BMW made in Alabama. If I want a building put up...I'll solicit union and non union bids. The point? I have a choice. I have no issue with private sector unions....in fact I have family in the auto industry, but they'll tell you they pushed too far. If I want my garbage picked up....I have no such choice. Surely you see the difference? And surely you understand the money laundering operation public sector unions have engaged in for decades? They're are a closed shop....you don't have a choice to join, so even against your will or desire, your union dues (aka taxpayer money) goes directly to political contributions of liberal politicians who grant more lucrative benefits every contract, and the beat goes on and on...nice gig if you can get it..why do you think we're in this fucking mess? And surely you understand that cops and fireman were exempt from Walkers law. Surely you understand all this?

[onmyknees]

I am a card carrying New York City liberal. But I will say this.... public union pensions are killing us. I have neighbors who are retired NYPD sergeants and lieutenants who are in their forty's making $120,000 per year (tax free at the state level) for the rest of their freak'n lives. And throw in full family health insurance paid for by you and me. Property taxes in New Jersey and New York are strangling home and co-op owners as state governments try to find the money to fund these ever growing pension obligations.
The private sector job market sucks. We don't need to offer these obscene benefits to attract young men and women to become police officers, firefighters, teachers, etc. Yet when mayors and governors try to restore some reason to the huge inequity between public and private employment benefits they're met with fierce political opposition.
This aint about left vs right. It's survival. so happy Walker won the election.


blasphmey ! Get him banned asap. Slinger, Cat, Trish, Prospeo..somebody ? The last liberal prior to flabbywith sanity was Ed Koch, and he's 80 !!

[buttslinger]

Hey OMK, you'd cross a picket line, right? Here's your Hero on vouchers for Vets.


Veterans' vouchers: Mitt Romney Flip-Flops on Veterans' Vouchers - WhichMitt.com - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oY7mc0Iy8Ek)

[Ben]

Wisconsin. Massive spend by the Koch family buys an election result. OMK - a jailbird -gloats When people like OMK rise like turds to the top of the bucket one has to worry for America.

I don't know OMK. I mean, anyone on this site can be outrageous and/or rankling. As most are nameless and faceless. And disembodied, as it were.
Money, big money, wins in politics. I mean, that's why Obama won. It's understandable. You can't critique Obama or Walker as far as what it takes to WIN in politics. We should criticize the overall system. And not the people involved.
If you wanna win in politics, well, you better raise a boatload of bucks. You better cozy up to corporate cash; that's where the money is.
Politics is the aroma of money. Big money. I mean, we can change that. You simply have publicly financed elections.
Each candidate is given a certain amount of cash. So: a level-playing filed as it were....
Democracy and elections shouldn't be about the so-called free market system. Otherwise politics becomes "free" of/from democratic control.
But, again, the Koch brothers, to serve their own exiguous interests, certainly want it that way. Why wouldn't they? It's the Ayn Rand school of: rational self interest. The Kochs could certainly feel what they're doing is moral by acting in their own self interest.
So they want a system of politics, of so-called democracy, that's based on free market principles.
Ya know, what you can buy, well, you own.
So, they assume ownership of the Governorship.

[trish]

blasphmey ! Get him banned asap. Slinger, Cat, Trish, Prospeo..somebody ? The last liberal prior to flabbywith sanity was Ed Koch, and he's 80 !! Flabbybody isn't a asshole, like you.

[Ben]

Scott Walker Spent 88% of the Money to Get 53% of the Vote:

http://www.commondreams.org/view/2012/06/06-0

And, of course, Obama is following the same path. And has to:

Barack Obama eyes $1bn re-election bid:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/apr/04/barack-obama-re-election-run

[buttslinger]

The only reason the Supreme Court went for unlimited corporate election spending is because after Bush, Republicans could never win again without it. Fucking Disgraceful.

[flabbybody]

sir: retirement pension award is predicated on average hours worked including overtime pay, logged in the final 3 years of service. Precinct commanders routinely approve all overtime requests for PO's who have submitted retirement notifications.

If you are NYPD you are no doubt are aware of this.
Your figures do not reflect what is really happening

[buttslinger]

NYPD!!?? I just copied and pasted off the internet. I'm not sure they count overtime, though, I thought it was 55% of your highest 3 years, base pay. That would mean they earned like 200K a year! You could retire after 20 years and live like a king in Montana.

[Prospero]

Flabbybody isn't a asshole, like you.

I second that emotion. He is both an asshole and a jerk. Something obviously happened to him in prison. Maybe they kicked in his teeth to make him compliant?

OMK clearly think that anyone who strays from dogma - of the right or the left - is culpable. You've got to give him that. He is utterly slaved to views of the radical right wing of Republican party (or further right in reality) even when they are transparently wrong. Independence of mind? Forget it when it comes to OMK. And when we offer substantial argument with his views he goes silent or offers insults.

[trish]

I should have pointed out in my reply to Flabbybody that unlike Illinois the Wisconsin public workers pension fund was fully funded and not costing the taxpayers a dime. That the pension system was breaking the state was a lie, a ruse to bust the union for ideological reasons only.

[Ben]

This also applied in '08. Obama beat McCain because Obama raised more money. Especially from the financial sector.
It seems the financial sector is backing Romney in '012. So, Obama might have a stark disadvantage.
President Obama understands that he needs to beat Romney in terms of raising money. If Obama does that, well, he'll win. It's almost guaranteed. Over 90 percent of candidates who raise more money than their opponent win.
No secret about this. It's the game.

Organized Money Beat Organized People - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4E6-IB25vxg&feature=plcp)

OBAMA The Wall Street President Needs One Billion Dollars For The 2012 Campaign; Goldman Sachs? - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtfMcYF-OxM)

[Ben]

Alyona Minkovski....

Alyona Minkovski: What Happened in Wisconsin? - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xBQzje34E0&feature=plcp)

[Ben]

More from Thom Hartmann (http://www.thomhartmann.com/): (http://www.thomhartmann.com/%29:)

Did Electronic Voting Machines Keep Scott Walker in Office? - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bGOKrf6yRDA&feature=plcp)

[thombergeron]

I am a card carrying New York City liberal. But I will say this.... public union pensions are killing us. I have neighbors who are retired NYPD sergeants and lieutenants who are in their forty's making $120,000 per year (tax free at the state level) for the rest of their freak'n lives. And throw in full family health insurance paid for by you and me. Property taxes in New Jersey and New York are strangling home and co-op owners as state governments try to find the money to fund these ever growing pension obligations.
The private sector job market sucks. We don't need to offer these obscene benefits to attract young men and women to become police officers, firefighters, teachers, etc. Yet when mayors and governors try to restore some reason to the huge inequity between public and private employment benefits they're met with fierce political opposition.
This aint about left vs right. It's survival. so happy Walker won the election.

Unfortunately, the problem with this argument is that it starts out blaming "public union pensions" and then cites specific examples of police pensions. Don't forget that in Wisconsin, police and fire unions were exempted from the law that stripped public employees of their collective bargaining rights. Walker did nothing to reign in the specific form of public spending that you're complaining about here.

This same argument is being made in state houses and city halls across the country: point out generous benefits afforded police unions and then use the outrage to cut jobs and benefits for janitors and bookkeepers instead. There are certainly no schoolteachers nor building inspectors retiring at 40 with $120K/year pension.

But in the end, this entire line of reasoning is horseshit anyway. The problem is not outlays, it's revenue. We used to have revenue to pay these pensions and benefits, but we've been busy cutting taxes for the last two decades. No one in the United States is being strangled by taxes. "In the fourth quarter of 2009, the average tax burden for the whole economy was 27.5%–the lowest since 1966." (http://innovationandgrowth.wordpress.com/2010/04/11/average-u-s-tax-burden-at-40-year-low/)

[flabbybody]

We're discussing police and teacher pensions. These are state obligations paid primarily from property tax receipts. In New York most people's local tax bill is more than what they owe the Feds. Unlike the income tax, property taxes are regressive rather than progressive. They are assessed against the value of your house, not your income.

[thombergeron]

OK, but where are the outrageous benefits and pensions for teachers' unions? I agree that a six-figure pension for a policeman retiring only 1/3 of his way through his adult life is a pretty boss deal, but there definitely aren't any teachers getting deals like that. Only cops are getting deals like that, and generally, the politicians, like Scott Walker, who are going after public employee unions are explicitly not doing anything to curtail police unions.

I completely disagree with you that property taxes are regressive. You have to own real property to be assessed property taxes, and poor people generally don't own real property.

But regardless, the chart I linked to models the total tax burden of U.S. taxpayers, including federal income tax, state property taxes, local sales taxes, etc. I'm afraid I don't know much about New York property taxes specifically, but I do know that property taxes in general in this country have not kept pace with real estate values. Here in California, property tax rates have been locked in place by law since 1978.

In total, you are definitely paying lower taxes than your parents did.

[Odelay]

Flab, I wouldn't be cheering Walker. Even if you agree with the controls he is instituting on negotiations with public unions, the rest of his agenda is pretty much anathema to any liberal, including stripping environmental regulations, crony capitalism, family values horseshit, etc. And in the end, him giving sweetheart deals to his favorite corporations by privatizing all these formerly affordable public services, is going to cost Wisconsin taxpayers a buttload of money.