When Do Ethnic Jokes Become Explicitly Racist

[broncofan]

I ask this because one can always make a joke about an ethnic group, whether it is their ethnic physical features, their stereotypical behavior or tendencies and then say they are joking and it is a matter of humor to laugh and not be angry. But at what point do jokes become unacceptably vulgar in a community? When several people pop into the thread to express offense and are mocked? Or before that?

For instance, when Ted Danson came out in blackface to joke with Whoopi Goldberg he may not have meant offense or done so with malicious intent, but a lot of people thought it was extremely inappropriate.

In one thread on this forum, Dino Velvet, who I know is a very popular member who has been here a long time, makes several jokes that I think are inappropriate. The jokes are about Jewish people and being Jewish myself I take offense and have not seen another thread with such bullying humor (that doesn't mean one doesn't exist). For instance, he makes jokes about using the sword his ancestors killed Jews with, about Jewish people being animals (and posts pictures of the animals), about Jewish stereotypes, and about being able to smell Jewish people. In the same thread, others talk about how strange it is that the Jews in a how to tell if someone is Jewish clip aren't talking about the obvious tell-tale physical features.

I know that some types of un-pc comments are going to be tolerated. But is it not going too far to liken Jewish people to animals even as a joke and to make light of Jewish people being killed? If the joke had been directed at one Jewish person he had a rapport with and was making a sarcastic comment to that would be one thing. But this seemed like an attempt to de-sensitize others to more crass comments and create a general bullying environment. I'd also like to think that it was not in any way him testing out the forum to see if he would get any backlash from posting more insidious stuff.

Anyhow, I mean this as serious stuff. The name of the thread that I find pretty bad even though it is apparently intended entirely as a joke is can you tell if someone is Jewish.

[Yvonne183]

It's not just Jewish, it seems others get hit with these jokes as well.

Check out Trish"s post in the "It's Begun" thread.

http://www.hungangels.com/vboard/showthread.php?t=67386&page=2

To some people it's a laugh while to others it might not be, it seems there are no strict rules on this forum, except for maybe jokes that are targeted to black people or muslims, then one might get banned for that.

[trish]

I apologize. I wasn't aware we were only supposed to poke fun at the pagan religious beliefs of the Carribean.

[Yvonne183]

I apologize. I wasn't aware we were only supposed to poke fun of and profit from the pagan religious beliefs of the Carribean.

I don't know what you are talking about.

I made a point that it's not just Jewish jokes that are found on this forum. There are jokes made for just about all groups of people. And it seems that people are banned for certain jokes about certain groups while others are fair game.

[broncofan]

It's not just Jewish, it seems others get hit with these jokes as well.

Check out Trish"s post in the "It's Begun" thread.

http://www.hungangels.com/vboard/showthread.php?t=67386&page=2

To some people it's a laugh while to others it might not be, it seems there are no strict rules on this forum, except for maybe jokes that are targeted to black people or muslims, then one might get banned for that.
Thanks for commenting Yvonne! As someone who doesn't practice, I still understand not wanting to have your religious practices ridiculed. For instance, making a joke about the Prophet Mohammad is seen as a great offense to Muslims, and so I imagine making fun of Jesus is no less a slight to Christians.

I am sure the response is going to be, "do you want to get rid of all of the fun?" And my answer isn't yes, I'm just curious where the line drawing should be. Making jokes about atrocities? About ethnic features and hygiene? Likening ethnic groups to animals, however cute and endearing your intentions? Mocking religious deities and prophets?

And I'm not necessarily saying such comments should be censored. Any of them in fact. I just get the sense that such comments are far too popular, that people have no sense how offensive they are, and that it is often the counter-attack that wins one pariah status and not the offensive comments.

I haven't seen blacks or muslims get preferential treatment though. I'm just curious as a more general matter because I think such comments are equally unacceptable when applied to other groups.

[Yvonne183]

Thanks for commenting Yvonne! As someone who doesn't practice, I still understand not wanting to have your religious practices ridiculed. For instance, making a joke about the Prophet Mohammad is seen as a great offense to Muslims, and so I imagine making fun of Jesus is no less a slight to Christians.

I am sure the response is going to be, "do you want to get rid of all of the fun?" And my answer isn't yes, I'm just curious where the line drawing should be. Making jokes about atrocities? About ethnic features and hygiene? Mocking religious deities and prophets?

And I'm not necessarily saying such comments should be censored. Any of them in fact. I just get the sense that such comments are far too popular, that people have no sense how offensive they are, and that it is often the counter-attack that wins one pariah status and not the offensive comments.

I haven't seen blacks or muslims get preferential treatment though. I'm just curious as a more general matter because I think such comments are equally unacceptable when applied to other groups.

I agree with you Bronco. I don't want censorship either, that's the last thing I would want. I wouldn't have even commented on the other post if this thread didn't come up. I just believe if one person's ethnic/religious/ or whatever other thing they consider themselves is made fun of, then it goes all ways, everyone is open to the same. I don't mind that at all. But if one group is made fun of and it is considered hate or uncalled for then the same has to apply to all groups.

I know this is a sticky thing, who is to say when the boundary is crossed. I can't say. I just take it that this is a forum made up of mostly idiots and I take the posts as such.

[broncofan]

I agree with you Bronco. I don't want censorship either, that's the last thing I would want. I wouldn't have even commented on the other post if this thread didn't come up. I just believe if one person's ethnic/religious/ or whatever other thing they consider themselves is made fun of, then it goes all ways, everyone is open to the same. I don't mind that at all. But if one group is made fun of and it is considered hate or uncalled for then the same has to apply to all groups.

I know this is a sticky thing, who is to say when the boundary is crossed. I can't say. I just take it that this is a forum made up of mostly idiots and I take the posts as such.
Yeah I feel the same way you do too. I couldn't really get myself to fire back at someone's ethnic background when they make the comments Dino made, but I'd certainly like to be able to make personal comments to him.

BTW, I don't mind a rough and tumble brawl in any form. I just don't want to resort to attacking someone's background to have it.

[Yvonne183]

I apologize. I wasn't aware we were only supposed to poke fun at the pagan religious beliefs of the Carribean.

You talking about Voodoo? First off, Voodoo is not a sole religion of the Caribbean, it might have roots there as well as Africa but it also spread, just as Christianity spread out of the Middle East and Voodoo is from my region of the world, Louisiana, maybe called Hoodoo as well.

I have been around followers of Voodoo, been in some of their activities. I said to Dino in another thread that I won't talk on an open forum about this. I would be made fun of from most from this forum. I believe in some of the ways of Voodoo. Voodoo has some Christianity intertwined within it.

I could have had some fun talking about Voodoo but not in an insulting way, which was my point in the first post, some people will find fun in a post about others and some will find hate. The thing is, we are not all equal, certain groups seem to be off limits when it comes to making jokes while others are more open to joking. I say, everyone should say whatever one wishes, have fun, someone will find a post has crossed the line, then what? Who is the thought police?

[trish]

There is a difference between making fun of members of a group and poking fun at the beliefs of those members. IMO the latter is satire and always fair game. The former is trickier. The mods have every right to decide what face they would like these boards to present to the world. Here's a related question: Is it okay to spam the general and political forums if you got banned for offensive speech?

[Yvonne183]

There is a difference between making fun of members of a group and poking fun at the beliefs of those members. IMO the latter is satire and always fair game. The former is trickier. The mods have every right to decide what face they would like these boards to present to the world. Here's a related question: Is it okay to spam the general and political forums if you got banned for offensive speech?

I am sorry, I am confused cause I don't understand what is meant by this:

There is a difference between making fun of members of a group and poking fun at the beliefs of those members. IMO the latter is satire and always fair game.

I am not being mean, I genuinely don't understand.

As far as spamming, I'd have to say that is wrong to do, whether one is banned or not. That doesn't seem right to do that. The only thing I can say to that might have an opinion is maybe the person that got banned felt it was unfair, maybe he/she thought that others said things and didn't get banned then this might get the person angry. but spamming is wrong.

[Yvonne183]

There is a difference between making fun of members of a group and poking fun at the beliefs of those members. IMO the latter is satire and always fair game. The former is trickier. The mods have every right to decide what face they would like these boards to present to the world. Here's a related question: Is it okay to spam the general and political forums if you got banned for offensive speech?

I had time to think. lol

Do you mean like making fun of Christianity is OK but to make fun of a Christian personally is wrong? Jokes about blacks in general is OK but a joke about the person himself is wrong?

[trish]

Example One: Jews have long noses for sniffing out money.

Example Two: Jews rightfully govern Jerusalem because the one and only King of Kings gave it to them to govern, but He forgot to give them the deed.

The former is making fun of the members of an ethno-religious group, the latter is making fun of a belief generally held by the religious members of that group.

[robertlouis]

In answer to the OP, I'd say that it becomes potentially racist the moment it's uttered in public. With all such statements it's less about the intended message and more about the response from the audience, and if it causes offence, then ipso facto, it becomes racist.

In the past these things were mostly said in private and within groups who shared the same values, background etc. Now, with the internet and the exponential rise in the use of social media, it's all too easy for racist remarks to enter the public domain and for the internet community to react one way or another or both.

A recent case in the UK involved a student who responded to the near death on the soccer field of a black player who had suffered a heart attack. He was attacked for his opening remarks and then became more extreme and racist as the attacks increased.

In the end he was charged for racially aggravated behaviour and was jailed for 56 days. I don't think you go that far as yet in the US, and, indeed, legal action in such cases is in its infancy over here too, but it gives a strong indication of how seriously the authorities take it in the UK.

[robertlouis]

Example One: Jews have long noses for sniffing out money.

Example Two: Jews rightfully govern Jerusalem because the one and only King of Kings gave it to them to govern, but He forgot to give them the deed.

The former is making fun of the members of an ethno-religious group, the latter is making fun of a belief generally held by the religious members of that group.

And in my experience the best Jewish jokes I've heard expertly skewer all the stereotypes and are, of course, told by my Jewish friends.

[broncofan]

Good example Trish. I think the best justification for ridiculing the second belief is that it effects the rights of non-believers. I wouldn't only make the member-belief separation but go even further. For instance, why would I have any desire to mock a Muslim's avoidance of pork? On the other hand, what if I wanted to protest an egregious example of Sharia law being used to justify homophobia? There's nothing at stake with Muslims' avoidance of pork.

On the other hand, if we are to have a serious dialogue across faiths about whether Iran is justified in executing homosexuals, I don't think I should have to accept any tenets of a religion I don't believe in and I should be free to mock any internal inconsistency in that belief system.

[trish]

On the other hand

Tim Minchin - Peace Anthem For Palestine - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UO6YlkYNJQ)

[broncofan]

In answer to the OP, I'd say that it becomes potentially racist the moment it's uttered in public. With all such statements it's less about the intended message and more about the response from the audience, and if it causes offence, then ipso facto, it becomes racist.

In the past these things were mostly said in private and within groups who shared the same values, background etc. Now, with the internet and the exponential rise in the use of social media, it's all too easy for racist remarks to enter the public domain and for the internet community to react one way or another or both.

A recent case in the UK involved a student who responded to the near death on the soccer field of a black player who had suffered a heart attack. He was attacked for his opening remarks and then became more extreme and racist as the attacks increased.

In the end he was charged for racially aggravated behaviour and was jailed for 56 days. I don't think you go that far as yet in the US, and, indeed, legal action in such cases is in its infancy over here too, but it gives a strong indication of how seriously the authorities take it in the UK.
I agree with everything you say here. Any single joke has the potential to offend and yet because it's a joke it probably doesn't have that intent at all. Once it's a public forum it's lost the intimacy of the joke and so it can seem more mean-spirited.

What I didn't like about that one thread is that Jewish people weren't exactly invited to play along with the joke and when offense was taken by I'd say three or four people (who knew there were so many Jewish tranny lovers) it just got uglier. Besides, I could imagine making fun of all sorts of ethnic characters of Jews with friends and yes the nose joke here as well. But on the other hand, the what's the difference between a Jew and a pizza joke, and the ashtray jokes would probably be going too far.

Also, I sort of noticed that the thread had the same author as the Jews bitch about the Holocaust all day long thread.

[robertlouis]

I agree with everything you say here. Any single joke has the potential to offend and yet because it's a joke it probably doesn't have that intent at all. Once it's a public forum it's lost the intimacy of the joke and so it can seem more mean-spirited.

What I didn't like about that one thread is that Jewish people weren't exactly invited to play along with the joke and when offense was taken by I'd say three or four people (who knew there were so many Jewish tranny lovers) it just got uglier. Besides, I could imagine making fun of all sorts of ethnic characters of Jews with friends and yes the nose joke here as well. But on the other hand, the what's the difference between a Jew and a pizza joke, and the ashtray jokes would probably be going too far.

Also, I sort of noticed that the thread had the same author as the Jews bitch about the Holocaust all day long thread.

I don't know what the intention of the OP was in the case of the "Jews Bitching" thread was, but the reaction was pretty predictable, and it all became unnecessarily heated. What I found really worrying, and I don't know if this is a generational thing, but some of the younger members seemed to think it should be ignored or forgotten.

The day we forget the holocaust is the day that we forsake our humanity.

[Yvonne183]

Example One: Jews have long noses for sniffing out money.

Example Two: Jews rightfully govern Jerusalem because the one and only King of Kings gave it to them to govern, but He forgot to give them the deed.

The former is making fun of the members of an ethno-religious group, the latter is making fun of a belief generally held by the religious members of that group.

Lol,, sorry, my blonde hair is getting in my way, I'm still confused.

I guess what I was trying to say, who makes the what is a joke and what is not. I know the owner of the site has the final say in anything, he owns the place, he can take the ball and go home and no one will ever play again. But who can really decide what is offensive and what isn't,, there is some sort of line and it can be crossed very easily. Maybe one person won't see that, but another might. There are some things said that are just bizarre but there are some borderline stuff and can be difficult to say, is it offensive, is it not offensive, all in the eye of the beholder sort of thing


This is Not directed at you Trish:
But don't let me stop the fun,, people get out there and keep the posts coming. They have been weird and bizarre from the first day I joined and I really don't see any change in the future, near or far. Someone will always find fault, someone will always be nasty, it's the theme here, so continue on with the posts.

[Yvonne183]

Oh, I just saw the spam.

[broncofan]

I don't know what the intention of the OP was in the case of the "Jews Bitching" thread was, but the reaction was pretty predictable, and it all became unnecessarily heated. What I found really worrying, and I don't know if this is a generational thing, but some of the younger members seemed to think it should be ignored or forgotten.

The day we forget the holocaust is the day that we forsake our humanity.
Thanks for saying that. As you say, it's important as a lesson for humanity not specifically for Jewish people. And I can go years without mentioning it. That doesn't mean I don't think it can be a relevant educational subject or even a useful analogy if appropriate.

It's not as though I bring it up to get out of a dinner check. I usually just say I forgot my wallet.

But yes, I think it is just a blase attitude towards racism generally and not specifically my group. People say the same thing about Jim Crow in this country and lynch mobs and I don't like the argument there either. As soon as someone says they think that the history of segregation in the U.S is brought up too much you know they're not really thinking. They have no clue that we had a segregated society until at least 1964. There's nothing at all funny about that.

[trish]

Lol,, sorry, my blonde hair is getting in my way, I'm still confused.

I guess what I was trying to say, who makes the what is a joke and what is not. I know the owner of the site has the final say in anything, he owns the place, he can take the ball and go home and no one will ever play again. But who can really decide what is offensive and what isn't,, there is some sort of line and it can be crossed very easily. Maybe one person won't see that, but another might. There are some things said that are just bizarre but there are some borderline stuff and can be difficult to say, is it offensive, is it not offensive, all in the eye of the beholder sort of thing


This is Not directed at you Trish:
But don't let me stop the fun,, people get out there and keep the posts coming. They have been weird and bizarre from the first day I joined and I really don't see any change in the future, near or far. Someone will always find fault, someone will always be nasty, it's the theme here, so continue on with the posts.Are you poking fun a blondes, or just yourself? :) Seriously, the two examples are only an attempt to clarify what I meant about the difference between making fun of the supposed characteristics of a group and the beliefs of the group. They certainly aren't an attempt draw a borderline between what is offensive and what is not. Indeed I think some jokes about some stereotypes are probably not offensive and some jokes about beliefs are. I doubt one will find an ideal form for inoffensive humor in the world of platonic forms. I merely mean to say that I will always regard humor (or at least attempts at humor) aimed at beliefs and ideas as fair game.

[Prospero]

A few years back a British comic called Jasper Carrot addressed this issue when he took all the jokes that might be directed at racial and ethnic minorities and substituted "Sun readers' in his punchlines. This won't mean much to US readers here - but it's akin to inserting Fox News viewers instead of jews, blacks, irish etc. The idea was that the poke was at a broad and racially/ethnically unspecified group of what viewers knew thus to be stupid people.

[Prospero]

I think that humour directed against a group who are weak or discriminated against is unnaccetable. But, generally speaking, if you want to direct humour against people such as the Conservative party, the Democrats, the Republicans, the catholic Church, the Government of Iran or Russia or france or against powerful people wherever that is fine.

But so much is about context and if you pursue the path of political correctness too far then all potential for humour is quashed

[buttslinger]

I've noticed that Trish, Yvonne, and Natina seem to carry around their own prickly wounds under their skin, maybe posting some provacative photos would cleanse away any possible shame pockets and give this pain to the group, the world, the final solution. Just a trhought.

[Stavros]

When do jokes about women become explicitly sexist? Jokes are meant to raise a laugh through ridicule. Some of the most popular jokes in history have been made at the expense of the ruler or ruling class: the English MP Tony Benn's favourite comedian was Benny Hill because he regularly ridiculed people in authority: taking the side of the 'little man' against the mighty officials of state can be subversive: when TV was small enough to be a national medium of expression, a BBC programme That Was The Week That Was produced the kind of acerbic political satire that would have been not just unthinkable in previous decades, it would not have been allowed: and there are people who think it is a mistake to ridicule politicians because it undermines the political system.

Jokes can also be a means of power: the secret, shared joke about a dicator is one way of usurping his power; jokes about Jews are often based on the myth of their unseen power -often financial because Jews in Christian lands were allowed to charge interest when Christians were not- and are designed to reduce the myth of their power to something without value: the need is to make some slur about the person to suggest they are deficient: the same purpose of jokes about the Irish in Britain, that they are hopelessly unintelligent: I was told that in Canada the people of Newfoundland are the butt of the jokes which in the UK are made about the Irish.

The obvious point would be: is the joke funny? Is it something that a Jew would also laugh at: Jackie Mason's routine is based on his being a Jew, I think -could his jokes all be about Jews? I don't believe in race or racism, these are bogus categories that replace critical and clear thinking, they are the badges of intellectual laziness. Jokes that are designed to hurt or slander are not jokes anyway, they become a form of provocation, of hate speech, it is the intention that matters: to raise a laugh by depleting someone's pomposity, to remove an air of authority from some official who ought not to have it; or to insult someone?

[Yvonne183]

Are you poking fun a blondes, or just yourself? :) Seriously, the two examples are only an attempt to clarify what I meant about the difference between making fun of the supposed characteristics of a group and the beliefs of the group. They certainly aren't an attempt draw a borderline between what is offensive and what is not. Indeed I think some jokes about some stereotypes are probably not offensive and some jokes about beliefs are. I doubt one will find an ideal form for inoffensive humor in the world of platonic forms. I merely mean to say that I will always regard humor (or at least attempts at humor) aimed at beliefs and ideas as fair game.

That was quite good catching me on the blonde thing. What I said could have been taken as an insult by some. lol

I guess being a blonde sort of gives me a pass, similar to what someone here said about Jewish jokes being said by Jewish people.

I am still kinda confused, maybe I'm not getting it fully. But it's OK, the forum should run free style, if I don't like some posts, I can always respond or just not come to the forum if I feel the forum doesn't fit my needs,, we all have the free will to choose. Gotta go to bed now, maybe later on after a sleep I'll understand better.

And Mr. Butt,,, nope, no provocative pics coming from me. I don't need my wounds cleansed, I am happy bottling all wounds up inside me.

[buttslinger]

And Mr. Butt,,, nope, no provocative pics coming from me. I don't need my wounds cleansed, I am happy bottling all wounds up inside me.

Well, know this: Butt loves the fighters.