Another Racial Frameup

[mildcigar_2001]

Another fine black man being oppressed by racists, I'm sure he was just on an inocent skittles run when this incident happened:

http://www.myfoxchicago.com/dpp/news/crime/alton-hayes-trayvon-martin-white-man-attacked-black-racist-racism-maywood-chicago-suburb-20120420

I am shocked that the cops would attempt this frame up in the 21st Century. It just goes to show you how truly oppressed and under the thumb of the Man, that Black men are. Where is Al Sharpton to defend this man from being railroaded???

[giovanni_hotel]

It's not very helpful to satirize a very real social phenomena with 'examples' that are relevant only if any criminal act for you begins and ends with a suspect's SKIN COLOR.

There are Black people who earned their cell in prison. There are some fucking stone killers and psychopaths locked up for the rest of their natural lives or on death row who IMO belong there.

But what you aren't getting mildcigar, because you can't get beyond racial stereotyping, is that because there are Black people incarcerated, BEING Black doesn't make you inherently criminal. Or automatically guilty.

The loser you posted if he attacked someone because of the Trayvon Martin case, is crazy and pathetic. He's not a victim. No one thinks he's a victim. No rational person sees any parallel between this case and the circumstances surrounding Travyon Martin's murder.

So either you're really that stupid, or are delusional enough to think everyone else is.

You're an asshole and I know it's hard for you to accept this, but next time why not start your post upfront with your belief that racism is something Black people made up to put a head trip on White people??

Mocking the existence of institutional racism doesn't mean it goes away because YOU choose not to believe it exists.

[mildcigar_2001]

Mocking the existence of institutional racism doesn't mean it goes away because YOU choose not to believe it exists.


I also choose not to believe in Santa Claus. There was a time in the U.S. when institutional racism was the order of the day. However those days are at least 30 years in the past. News flash, Democrat Bull Connor is no longer Sheriff.

It is like the Treyvon Martin case, where the legacy media did a poor job of reporting the facts and got the race hustlers and the black community stirred up. The original story was that Zimmerman was hunting downn a black kid (NBC editied the 911 tape to try to show this). This is unfortunate for race relations and all sorts of things.

I will tell you what will happen and you can look back on this thread in 6 or 9 months to verify I was correct. Zimmerman will be found not guilty of 2nd degree murder. Unless there is some surprise evidence put forward by the prosecution (that has not been made public), Mr. Zimmerman will be found not guilty. I used to try criminal cases for a living, and the below photograph seems to present reasonable doubt to me. The prosecution has a hard case to make and they have to convience 12 jurors that Zimmerman set out to intentionally kill Treyvon.

After the verdict there will race riots fanned by Al Sharpton and his ilk, and innocent people will die. Depending on whether or not the trial is held prior to the election, the subsequent riots will negatively reflect on Obama leading to his defeat.

The point of my post is to throw a little light on how foolish a number these claims of racism are. The black community should be more cautious in throwing around charges of racism. If you disagree with Obama it has to be because you are a racist, rather than you have a disagreement on the merits. I've been called racist for daring to question the story as put out by Al Sharpton (a known confidence man). It will be like the boy who cried wolf, when there really is racism then no one will believe it. There are too many cases ginned up like the Duke rape case where there is a big hue and cry intially, but nary a peep when the real facts come forward.

[giovanni_hotel]

Pardon me if I doubt you have a JD or were ever a trial attorney. You have some of the most atrocious spelling errors on this forum for someone who made a 'career' of the law and letters.

Also, you lack a fundamental legal understanding of 2nd degree murder.
For the record, 2nd degree murder, legally defined, is NOT PREMEDITATED. Unlike first degree murder, which is a willful act and the original intent of the killer.

If the prosecution can prove their case that Zimmerman's actions by pursuing Trayvon with a loaded firearm knowingly created a deadly situation that would likely result in death, he will be convicted of 2nd degree murder.

Pulling out a gun in a fistfight and shooting a victim through the heart shows an obvious lack of concern for human life and is textbook 2nd degree murder.

Zimmerman will have to demonstrate that his pursuit of Trayvon was inherently a life threatening situation(good luck with that), and that Trayvon's efforts to defend himself from an armed stranger warranted the justifiable deadly use of force.

There is no state in the country where someone can provoke a confrontation that results in fists being thrown, then pull out a gun and kill your adversary and NOT be convicted of some form of homicide.

Another thing you don't understand mildcigar, among others, is exactly what is 'institutional racism'.

I'll give you an example; in the Trayvon Martin case keep all the variables the same except make Zimmerman a 28 year old Black man and Trayvon a white teen. Remember this is Florida, not Massachusetts, not exactly a liberal bleeding heart bastion.

It is very unlikely that a Black man would be afforded the benefit of the doubt in a similar case and allowed to plead self defense to officers on the scene, give an official statement at the precinct a half hour later and then go home.

Can you imagine white police officers buying a story from an armed Black adult that a white unarmed teen carrying junk food attacked him(!), and this Black gentlemen feared for his life and had no other choice except to pull out his gun and smoke him??

That's institutional racism, different people under similar circumstances are NOT viewed similarly by law enforcement and private institutions because of exogenous factors, such as skin color.

You're equating institutional racism to believing in Santa Claus??

If that's the case, we both know the problem isn't with those who are willing to point out legitimate cases of injustice. It's with those who refuse to deal with it seriously.

You used to 'try criminal cases for a living'???? lol

Then you should know that Zimmerman bleeding from his head does not constitute a life threatening situation and doesn't change the facts of this case. You should also know the veracity of this photo and the 'witness' who took it will all be challenged and unlikely allowed to be presented in court.
That pic was strictly released for media and public consumption.

What that pic shows is that Trayvon tried to defend himself from a man who was stalking him.
You should log on to youtube mildcigar instead of getting all your 'facts' from right wing media. There are several unedited posted versions of Zimmerman's 911 call that show clearly HE was following Trayvon and continued to do so when instructed not to.

If you choose to follow someone while carrying a loaded firearm, and the person you are following is unarmed, what happens next is going to be the responsibility of the pursuer.

Zimmerman's only chance is the hearing before trial to argue whether or not Zimmerman is covered under Florida's SYG law. If the judge decides that he is, it's a wrap and no trial.

If however the judge decides SYG doesn't apply in this case for George Zimmerman, IMO he's going to jail on a 2nd degree/voluntary manslaughter charge.

BTW you're still an asshole. Still willfully ignorant and a functional racist. And a horrible liar.

WOrk it out, cigar.

[buttslinger]

I used to try criminal cases for a living,

I knew if cigar talked long enough the lies would start to spill out. Did you try cases or did you try being a criminal?

[Prospero]

:iagree::iagree::iagree: Excellent post Giovvani.
It's not very helpful to satirize a very real social phenomena with 'examples' that are relevant only if any criminal act for you begins and ends with a suspect's SKIN COLOR.

There are Black people who earned their cell in prison. There are some fucking stone killers and psychopaths locked up for the rest of their natural lives or on death row who IMO belong there.

But what you aren't getting mildcigar, because you can't get beyond racial stereotyping, is that because there are Black people incarcerated, BEING Black doesn't make you inherently criminal. Or automatically guilty.

The loser you posted if he attacked someone because of the Trayvon Martin case, is crazy and pathetic. He's not a victim. No one thinks he's a victim. No rational person sees any parallel between this case and the circumstances surrounding Travyon Martin's murder.

So either you're really that stupid, or are delusional enough to think everyone else is.

You're an asshole and I know it's hard for you to accept this, but next time why not start your post upfront with your belief that racism is something Black people made up to put a head trip on White people??

Mocking the existence of institutional racism doesn't mean it goes away because YOU choose not to believe it exists.

[mildcigar_2001]

BTW you're still an asshole. Still willfully ignorant and a functional racist. And a horrible liar.


It is interesting that you are getting hysterical at this point. You can believe me or not, it makes me no nevermind.

However I will direct you to the opinion of Alan Dershowitz (a Harvard Law Professor). Please see the below quote:

Professor Alan Dershowitz of Harvard Law School stated upon release of the arrest affidavit that it was “so thin that it won’t make it past a judge on a second degree murder charge … everything in the affidavit is completely consistent with a defense of self-defense.”

After the release of the photo, however, Dershowitz went much further, telling Breitbart News that if the prosecutors did have the photo and didn’t mention it in the affidavit, that would constitute a “grave ethical violation,” since affidavits are supposed to contain “all relevant information.”
Dershowitz continued, “An affidavit that willfully misstates undisputed evidence known to the prosecution is not only unethical but borders on perjury because an affiant swears to tell not only the truth, but the whole truth, and suppressing an important part of the whole truth is a lie.”


http://www.letfreedomringblog.com/?p=12754


As I stated in the original post unless there is additional evidence put forward by the prosecutor Zimmerman will walk free, and those who have whipped themselves up to a hysterical frenzy will riot in the streets. But I must be racist to think that blacks would riot and burn down their own neighborhoods because they can't control their own behavior.

[giovanni_hotel]

THat photo has yet to be verified since it wasn't taken by Sanford PD. Apparently Zimmerman was bleeding like a hose in that pic, yet no one saw the need to apply a single bandage to the back of his head at the time.

Dershowitz is a law PROFESSOR, not an experienced district attorney or state prosecutor. His trial experience is thin.

He's talking theory, but in the real world you don't lay out your entire case in an affidavit if you expect to win a conviction in open court.

If Professor Dershowitz thinks it's perfectly normal for an armed citizen to follow an unarmed teenager he decides is a mortal threat, who attacks Zimmerman allegedly with non-lethal force is enough justification for Zimmerman to murder Trayvon, more power to the Professor.

His opinion is not consensus.

Hey, but you're an attorney, mildcigar, right??
Your professional opinion is good enough for me.

Pulling out a gun in a brief fist fight is not self-defense or justifiable homicide.

[giovanni_hotel]

And when is the last time there's been a race riot in Florida??
You know why most race riots were in northern cities and not in the deep South??
Because southern cops will SHOOT rioters and call it 'preserving the peace.'

Tell your boy Zimmerman he looks like an even bigger pussy wearing that bullet proof vest 24/7. He even wore it when he was released on bail in the middle of the night and like only one news camera crew was there.
Real gun-toting tough guy .lol


Zimmerman is going to jail if it's determined before trial he's not covered by SYG. The trial will just be a formality.

[fred41]

If Zimmerman is found not guilty...it doesn't mean he didn't do it, just that the state didn't prove it in the eyes of the jury. Personally I think Zimmerman was a time bomb...but that may not be proven.
The thing people do need to remember when it comes to criminal cases: the defendant doesn't have to prove a damn thing. He doesn't even have to put on a case. Guilty "beyond a reasonable doubt" becomes a tough nut to prove with limited evidence once a jury hears a judge's charge of the law. ...but sometimes it only takes circumstantial evidence , especially if the defendant seems far too oily...ala Scott Peterson.
Actually, to me it sounds more like the legal definition of Manslaughter...
Let's wait and see what happens.

[Stealthnacho]

Successful troll thread.

[Prospero]

There were riots in Liberty City Miami in the mid 1980s i think.

[giovanni_hotel]

There were riots in Liberty City Miami in the mid 1980s i think.


True.

But people are talking as if there are going to be L.A. style riots if the 'right' verdict isn't reached, which just isn't going to happen in Florida.

Sanford is a small southern town, not a major urban metropolis. The repercussions against the local Black community if they rioted would be crushing.

[Prospero]

Gotta agree with you Giovanni. You've ony to look at the racism posted by that guy from mid-Florida to see how little attitudes have changed down there. So many unreconstructed rednecks. I was in a town called Pigeon Forge in Tennesee a couple of years ago and it was full of guys in pic-up tracks with confederate flags pasted all over them.

[giovanni_hotel]

There are forward thinking people down South, but in many places it's like walking through a time warp. There are people there who literally still resent the federal government because of their 'unlawful intervention' during the Civil War.

http://i499.photobucket.com/albums/rr351/SandRider_bucket/poster26382210.jpg

[buttslinger]

[QUOTE=giovanni_hotel;1130431]But people are talking as if there are going to be L.A. style riots if the 'right' verdict isn't reached. Sanford is a small southern town, not a major urban metropolis. [QUOTE]

Am I going to have to be the asshole that finally posts this video?

Unedited version of Sanford and Son - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CoSrKLTx_ao)

[nonnonnon]

he didn't say they would riot in florida. this case happened in chicago

[onmyknees]

A different perspective......




Who Is 'Racist'?

By Thomas Sowell (http://www.realclearpolitics.com/authors/?author=Thomas+Sowell&id=14502)

Whatever the ultimate outcome of the case against George Zimmerman for his shooting of Trayvon Martin, what has happened already is enough to turn the stomach of anyone who believes in either truth or justice.
An amazing proportion of the media has given us a painful demonstration of the thinking -- and lack of thinking -- that prevailed back in the days of the old Jim Crow South, where complexion counted more than facts in determining how people were treated.
http://us-ads.openx.net/w/1.0/ai?auid=186822&cs=4f8f746e8d23f&cb=INSERT_RANDOM_NUMBER_HERE (http://us-ads.openx.net/w/1.0/rc?cs=4f8f746e8d23f&cb=INSERT_RANDOM_NUMBER_HERE)



One of the first things presented in the media was a transcript of a conversation between George Zimmerman and a police dispatcher. The last line in most of the transcripts shown on TV was that of the police dispatcher telling Zimmerman not to continue following Trayvon Martin.
That became the basis of many media criticisms of Zimmerman for continuing to follow him. Only later did I see a transcript of that conversation on the Sean Hannity program that included Zimmerman's reply to the police dispatcher: "O.K."
That reply removed the only basis for assuming that Zimmerman did in fact continue to follow Trayvon Martin. At this point, neither I nor the people who assumed that he continued to follow the teenager have any basis in fact for believing that he did or didn't.
Why was that reply edited out by so many in the media? Because too many people in the media see their role as filtering and slanting the news to fit their own vision of the world. The issue is not one of being "fair" to "both sides" but, more fundamentally, of being honest with their audience.
NBC News carried the editing even further, removing one of the police dispatcher's questions, to which Zimmerman was responding, in order to feed the vision of Zimmerman as a racist.
In the same vein were the repeated references to Zimmerman as a "white Hispanic." Zimmerman is half-white. So is Barack Obama. But does anyone refer to Obama as a "white African"?
All these verbal games grow out of the notion that complexion tells you who is to be blamed and who is not. It is a dangerous game because race is no game. If the tragic history of the old Jim Crow South in this country is not enough to show that, the history of racial and ethnic tragedies is written in blood in countries around the world. Millions have lost their lives because they looked different, talked differently or belonged to a different religion.
In the midst of the Florida tragedy, there was a book published with the unwieldy title, "No Matter What ... They'll Call This Book Racist." Obviously it was written well before the shooting in Florida, but its message -- that there is rampant hypocrisy and irrationality in public discussions of race -- could not have been better timed.
Author Harry Stein, a self-described "reformed white liberal," raised by parents who were even further left, exposes the illogic and outright fraudulence that lies behind so much of what is said about race in the media, in politics and in our educational institutions.
He asks a very fundamental question: "Why, even after the Duke University rape fiasco, does the media continue to give credence to every charge of racism?"
Harry Stein credits Shelby Steele's book "White Guilt" with opening his eyes to one of the sources of many counterproductive things said and done about race today -- namely, guilt about what was done to blacks and other minorities in the past.
Let us talk sense, like adults. Nothing that is done to George Zimmerman -- justly or unjustly -- will unlynch a single black man who was tortured and killed in the Jim Crow South for a crime he didn't commit.
Letting hoodlums get away with hoodlumism today does not undo a single injustice of the past. It is not even a favor to the hoodlums, for many of whom hoodlumism is just the first step on a path that leads to the penitentiary, and maybe to the execution chamber.
Winston Churchill said, "If the past sits in judgment on the present, the future will be lost." He wasn't talking about racial issues, but what he said applies especially where race is involved.

[trish]

Let us talk sense, like adults. Nothing that is done to George Zimmerman -- justly or unjustly -- will unlynch a single black man who was tortured and killed in the Jim Crow South for a crime he didn't commit.Justly lynched? For a crime he didn't commit? WTF?? Firing the Chief of Police and making sure Zimmerman faces a judge and a jury might prevent future vigilante shootings..just or unjust...for crimes not committed.

[giovanni_hotel]

Thomas Sowell isn't really seen as a credible social critic on this particular issue. Strange post IMO, but when conservatives want someone 'Black' to rubber stamp their point of view with street cred, they dust off one of these whack jobs to make everything feel okay.

Zimmerman followed Trayvon. He followed him in his SUV and on foot. Is Thomas Sowell ignorant or being willfully so to forward an agenda??

If you've seen a mock up of the gated community and where Trayvon was stalking and killed, it's obvious that Zimmerman disobeyed the police dispatcher and made up his own mind he was going to 'handle' Trayvon.

http://viewfromll2.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/zimmermanmap.png


That's why when I hear the lies that are being put forth in the media that Trayvon doubled back and jumped Zimmerman, or that Zimmerman was on his way back to his truck when Trayvon ambused him, etc., I don't know why there are people so invested in George Zimmerman's 'justifiable' murder of Trayvon Martin and his innocence.

The outrage over this case again was about there being no arrest, no investigation and no trial.

Black people are fully prepared to see Zimmerman walk on these charges after a trial because that's how these things go, but for someone to admit they shot someone to death and be allowed to explain to officers on the scene that it was self-defense and not be arrested, that's a new twist for even the most cynical among us.

[trish]

The outrage over this case again was about there being no arrest, no investigation and no trial.

Black people are fully prepared to see Zimmerman walk on these charges after a trial because that's how these things go, but for someone to admit they shot someone to death and be allowed to explain to officers on the scene that it was self-defense and not be arrested, that's a new twist for even the most cynical among us.Exactly. Nicely said.

[InHouston]

I have black neighbors and friends all around my house in my community. And then, we have niggers running amuck out here. You know who complains about them the most? My black neighbors and black friends.

And that's just the way it is. And the black community knows it. They just won't admit it.

Chris Rock said it himself, "Black people hate niggers just like white people do."

[Prospero]

InHouston. You are crass and seem to think that using the N word is okay because an African American used it.

[InHouston]

No the defendant does not have to prove anything. The burden of proof is on the State when charged with a felony like this. Zimmerman will have to be unanimously found guilty by every member of the jury. If one member disagrees with the rest of the jurors, he goes free, because the State couldn’t prove their charge.

[trish]

You're answering another straw man. We all know the burden of proof is on the prosecution; the issue is there very nearly wasn't even a proper investigation let alone a prosecution thanks to Florida's No-Due-Process-Reqired law, and the attitude of Florida's law and enforcement system toward the crime and the victim. If not for the media and public outrage Zimmerman would have simply killed a young man while playing cop and walked away.

[broncofan]

No the defendant does not have to prove anything. The burden of proof is on the State when charged with a felony like this. Zimmerman will have to be unanimously found guilty by every member of the jury. If one member disagrees with the rest of the jurors, he goes free, because the State couldn’t prove their charge.

Not true. If one member of the jury disagrees it is declared a mistrial and the prosecution can try him again. I'm not making a petty point here, as double jeopardy does not kick in unless he is acquitted.

I think as someone put very nicely at the top of this page, there was a lot of reason for outrage. I am not convinced that Zimmerman will be found guilty of murder but the fact that he was able to talk his way out of an arrest after shooting an unarmed 17 year old is a travesty.

I am not up to date on the trial but maybe someone can tell me; has the lesser charge of manslaughter been added to the indictment? I think based on what we know that is the most likely scenario. In order to prove Mr. Zimmerman guilty of second degree murder the prosecution would have to show either specific intent or malice (depending on the mental state terminology used in Florida). He may have had it but that would be much harder to prove beyond a reasonable doubt. If, on the other hand, you want to show manslaughter (reckless homicide) you only need to show that Mr. Zimmerman ignored an unjustified risk of harming or killing Trayvon Martin.

The fact that an unarmed person was shot dead in the street by someone who was not gravely injured in my opinion raises the presumption of at least recklessness as the mental state. Without justification such as self-defense (which must be proportionate to the violence used against you), the prosecution may win a case for manslaughter.

[broncofan]

You're answering another straw man. We all know the burden of proof is on the prosecution; the issue is there very nearly wasn't even a proper investigation let alone a prosecution thanks to Florida's No-Due-Process-Reqired law, and the attitude of Florida's law and enforcement system toward the crime and the victim. If not for the media and public outrage Zimmerman would have simply killed a young man while playing cop and walked away.
Which is outrageous. Even though we frequently hear about the presumption of innocence and it always holds true until someone is tried and convicted, sometimes the uncontested facts and circumstances create a very different presumption.

In civil law, they have a doctrine called res ipsa loquitor. It means "it is what it appears to be." The reason this doctrine got instituted is because there were some negligence cases where putting the burden on the plaintiff to actually produce evidence of the defendant's careless behavior seemed unfair in those cases where access to such information was not easily obtainable. For instance, if someone is walking down the street and a barrel full of flour falls on their head, they should not be forced to prove that the person who owned the storefront acted negligently. Rather, that person has the burden of production to show that they did not act carelessly in allowing such a thing to happen where they have control of the premises.

While I believe that the application of this doctrine in criminal cases would probably be considered a violation of due process it is very likely that people automatically apply it when considering similar fact scenarios. They say, "so a young man was minding his own business, was confronted by someone who is not law enforcement, and was killed despite being unarmed." George Zimmerman admitted to shooting him but is arguing self-defense. As a practical matter, jurors will expect Mr. Zimmerman to demonstrate that he reasonably believed his life was in danger whether the burden is explicitly shifted onto Mr. Zimmerman or not.

Also, if self-defense is considered an affirmative defense, then I believe Mr. Zimmerman would actually have to show by clear and convincing evidence that he was justified in using self-defense. I'm just not sure if self-defense is treated as an affirmative defense (where the elements of the crime are admitted to but the defense acts as justification) or as a negation of the prima facie case of murder by showing the failure to demonstrate the required mental state. Either way, at the very least there is going to be an informal burden on Mr. Zimmerman to explain exactly wtf he was doing.

[onmyknees]

Thomas Sowell isn't really seen as a credible social critic on this particular issue. Strange post IMO, but when conservatives want someone 'Black' to rubber stamp their point of view with street cred, they dust off one of these whack jobs to make everything feel okay.

Zimmerman followed Trayvon. He followed him in his SUV and on foot. Is Thomas Sowell ignorant or being willfully so to forward an agenda??

If you've seen a mock up of the gated community and where Trayvon was stalking and killed, it's obvious that Zimmerman disobeyed the police dispatcher and made up his own mind he was going to 'handle' Trayvon.

http://viewfromll2.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/zimmermanmap.png


That's why when I hear the lies that are being put forth in the media that Trayvon doubled back and jumped Zimmerman, or that Zimmerman was on his way back to his truck when Trayvon ambused him, etc., I don't know why there are people so invested in George Zimmerman's 'justifiable' murder of Trayvon Martin and his innocence.

The outrage over this case again was about there being no arrest, no investigation and no trial.

Black people are fully prepared to see Zimmerman walk on these charges after a trial because that's how these things go, but for someone to admit they shot someone to death and be allowed to explain to officers on the scene that it was self-defense and not be arrested, that's a new twist for even the most cynical among us.



I missed this ....but I see you're still pounding away. Thomas Sowell isn't seen as creditable????? By who.....YOU ? And Al Sharpton and Spike Lee are ? LMFAO. The guy's an intellect.... and it's irrelevent if you agree with him or not.....and You're still runnin' that Uncle Tom routine on any black that's strays from the monolith? He's as black as you ! Shame on you dude.

[giovanni_hotel]

I've never called another Black man an 'Uncle Tom'. Check yourself. Thomas Sowell doesn't have instant credibility on issues of race because he's Black. That is all.

The man is on an island all by himself because he has few academics or intellect who conform to his world view, which is why he's so 'popular' among conservatives when they want a stamp of 'Black' approval on a race issue.

Shame on you 2x.

[robertlouis]

I've never called another Black man an 'Uncle Tom'. Check yourself. Thomas Sowell doesn't have instant credibility on issues of race because he's Black. That is all.

The man is on an island all by himself because he has few academics or intellect who conform to his world view, which is why he's so 'popular' among conservatives when they want a stamp of 'Black' approval on a race issue.

Shame on you 2x.

It's quiet. Is OMK in Troll rehab?

[broncofan]

I've never called another Black man an 'Uncle Tom'. Check yourself. Thomas Sowell doesn't have instant credibility on issues of race because he's Black. That is all.

The man is on an island all by himself because he has few academics or intellect who conform to his world view, which is why he's so 'popular' among conservatives when they want a stamp of 'Black' approval on a race issue.

Shame on you 2x.
I agree with what you say. I have read quite a bit of Thomas Sowell's work and he is an intelligent man, but he is being used for the purpose you say. His opinion stands and falls on the merit of the support he provides for it, not because he is supposedly saying something against his ethnic interest and therefore is assumed to have a reduced incentive to lie. Well said.