Iraq Militia Stone Youths To Death For Being Emos

[Dino Velvet]

http://news.yahoo.com/iraq-militia-stone-youths-death-emo-style-171115804.html


Iraq militia stone youths to death for "emo" style

http://l.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/FZN6924R0WZ__x92.x6.GA--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Zmk9Zml0O2g9Mjc-/http://media.zenfs.com/en_us/News/logo/reuters/d0c3eb8ca18907492a4b337b5cec5193.jpeg (http://www.reuters.com/)By Ahmed Rasheed and Mohammed Ameer | Reuters – 11 hrs ago




BAGHDAD (Reuters) - At least 14 youths have been stoned to death in Baghdad in the past three weeks in what appears to be a campaign by Shi'ite militants against youths wearing Western-style "emo" clothes and haircuts, security and hospital sources say.
Militants in Shi'ite neighborhoods where the stonings have taken place circulated lists on Saturday naming more youths targeted to be killed if they do not change the way they dress.
The killings have taken place since Iraq's interior ministry drew attention to the "emo" subculture last month, labeling it "Satanism" and ordering a community police force to stamp it out.
"Emo" is a form of punk music developed in the United States. Fans are known for their distinctive dress, often including tight jeans, T-shirts with logos and distinctive long or spiky haircuts.
At least 14 bodies of youths have been brought to three hospitals in eastern Baghdad bearing signs of having been beaten to death with rocks or bricks, security and hospital sources told Reuters under condition they not be identified because they were not authorized to speak to the media.
Nine bodies were brought to hospitals in Sadr City, a vast, poor Shi'ite neighborhood, three were brought to East Baghdad's main al-Kindi hospital and two were brought to the central morgue, medical sources said.
Six other young people, including two girls, were wounded in beatings intended as warnings, the security sources said.
"Last week I signed the death certificates of three of those young people, and the reason for death I wrote in my own hand was severe skull fractures," a doctor at al-Kindi hospital told Reuters. "A very powerful blow to the head caused these fractures which totally smashed the skull of the victim."
A leaflet distributed in the Shi'ite Bayaa district of east Baghdad seen by Reuters on Saturday had 24 names of youths targeted for killing.
"We strongly warn you, to all the obscene males and females, if you will not leave this filthy work within four days the punishment of God will descend upon you at the hand of the Mujahideen," the leaflet said.
Another leaflet in Sadr City bore 20 names. "We are the Brigades of Anger. We warn you, if you do not get back to sanity and the right path, you will be killed," it said.
In a statement last month the interior ministry said it was monitoring "the 'emo' phenomenon, or Satanism" which it said was spreading through schools, particularly among teenage girls.
"They wear tight clothes that bear paintings of skulls, they use school implements with skulls and wear rings in their noses and tongues as well as other weird appearances," it said.
After reports of the stonings circulated on Iraqi media, the interior ministry said this week that no murders on its files could be blamed on the reaction to "emo".
"Many media have reported fabricated news reports about the so-called 'emo' phenomenon - stories about tens of young people killed in various ways, including stoning," the ministry said in a statement on Thursday.
"No murder case has been recorded with the interior ministry on so-called 'emo' grounds. All cases of murder recorded were for revenge, social and common criminal reasons."
CLERICS DENOUNCE KILLINGS
Iraq's leading Shi'ite clerics have condemned the stonings.
Abdul-Raheem al-Rikabi, Baghdad representative for Iraq's most influential Shi'ite cleric, Ali al-Sistani, called the killings "terrorist attacks".
"Such a phenonomenon which has spread among young people should be tackled through dialogue and peaceful means and not through physical liquidation," Rikabi told Reuters.
In a response to questions on his website on Saturday, Moqtada al-Sadr, a Shi'ite cleric whose followers dominate Sadr City, described "emo" youths as "crazy and fools", but said they should be dealt with only through the law.
"They are a plague on Muslim society, and those responsible should eliminate them through legal means," he said.
Abu Ali al-Rubaie, a leading Sadr aide in Sadr City, said the cleric's followers had nothing to do with the killings.
"In this issue and in all such problems we always use peaceful and educational methods to correct any wrongdoings. We are not connected in any way to those groups allegedly responsibility for killing those young people."
In the years after the fall of Saddam Hussein, most of Baghdad's neighborhoods were under the firm grip of Sunni and Shi'ite religious militias which enforced strict dress codes.
Today, the militias have largely disappeared, Baghdad is far more peaceful and many youths experiment with Western styles, although much of Iraqi society remains conservative.
On the streets of Baghdad, people said they had heard of the killings through the media. Many expressed disapproval of the "emo" style, but said murder was no way to respond.
"I saw them a couple weeks ago ... a bunch of girls, high-school aged, walking together, dressed in black. They had long black eye makeup and bracelets with skulls and chains on their handbags with skulls," said Abdullah, 31.
"If they are close friends who have something in common, that's all right. If other things we hear about them are true, like sucking each other's blood or worshipping the devil, that is not accepted in our society. But I think this is just a trend to imitate the West."
(Additional reporting by Kareem Raheem and Peter Graff; Writing by Peter Graff; Editing by Andrew Heavens)

[dakota87]

I read about this earlier today and it really pisses me off. I almost wish I didn't know about it because there's nothing to be done about it. We've already bombed the shit out of them. Where did that get us? What else can be done? Just hope the people over there will get a clue one day and rise up over their oppressors. And it will have to be the young because it's the oldies that generally ARE the oppressors.

[russtafa]

Go the muslims that our liberals love so much=you suck ass cunts

[buttslinger]

Whathefuck is an EMO?
Is this like the Chinese and the Sgt Bilco t-shirt?

Devise an Electric car and send the A-rabs back to being rock farmers! Jesus! Do we need Josef Stalin to get anything done around here?

[Stavros]

Whathefuck is an EMO?
Is this like the Chinese and the Sgt Bilco t-shirt?

Devise an Electric car and send the A-rabs back to being rock farmers! Jesus! Do we need Josef Stalin to get anything done around here?

1) Electric cars are improving in efficiency and quality every year, but you Americans won't buy them.

2) I don't know what a rock farmer is, and you evidently don't know much about Arabs.

3) Joseph Stalin was Saddam Hussein's role model -isn't that one of the reasons Iraq is such a mess?

4) EMO's have been an emerging phenonemon among some Arab youth who are wired into the youth culture available through the internet, they are as prone to public ridicule in their countries in the same way beatniks, hippies and punks were in their day in our countries (I seem to recall two hippies in a film called Easy Rider having their heads blown off for daring to wear long hair in Texas).

5) There is some evidence that the deaths are sanctioned by the Police anyway, not just 'obscure' militias, and the governments of George Bush and Tony Blair knew full well that any form of democratically elected govt in Iraq would be dominated by the Shi'a whose links to Iran are mostly financial but nevertheless emotionally close. Hostility to an EMO is hardly surprising, and there are also claims that EMO's are either being mistaken for being gay, and may actually be gay.

6) Contemporary Iraq is not California, or London, I don't like it anymore than anyone else, but the way people dress in certain places requires a degree of sensitivity. Female tourists visiting St Peter's in Rome usually dress with the sensitivity that church expects; there was a time when any young men with hair touching his ears would not be allowed entry into Singapore unless he had it cut right there and then; and I once saw a Scotsman in a kilt walking through Jerusalem followed by screeching children who had no idea where this bloke in a skirt was coming from, and he did look mightily embarassed -but he wasn't murdered, after all.

Iraq is not on many people's list of holiday destinations, I wonder why.

Anyway, here is an alternative account of the killings:

The Emo killings in Iraq: The police and their smoking gun

Posted on 9 March 2012 (http://paper-bird.net/2012/03/09/the-emo-killings-in-iraq-the-police-and-their-smoking-gun/)
http://scottlong1980.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/logo_moi_s1.jpg?w=300&h=225 (http://scottlong1980.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/logo_moi_s1.jpg)Seal of Iraq's Interior Ministry: The Eye of Barad-Dur

An ordinary scribbler or blogger — a Bruce Bawer (http://www.towleroad.com/2011/07/gay-conservative-bruce-bawer-stunned-to-discover-that-oslo-killer-anders-breivik-cited-his-islamopho.html), say — would probably react if something rabid and ferocious he wrote, calling down violence on the heads of offenders, were followed up in a few days by somebody murdering the offenders in question. He’d try to deny the connection, or even delete the offending words. However deceitful, this mendacity at least shows a healthy sense of shame. But one thing that police have in common, around the world, is an utter absence of a sense of shame. Never apologize, never explain! Never understand, either — I mean, never even grasp how somebody might deduce that you’ve done something bad. The stupidity of the constabulary is, with death and taxes, one of life’s fixed points.

I’ve spent the evening writing to Iraqis, and looking for information on the Iraqi murder campaign (http://paper-bird.net/2012/03/08/gay-killings-emos-and-iraq-whats-going-on/) that targets “Emos” — harmless, Gothy teenage punks. And right on the website of Iraq’s Ministry of Interior is a press release (http://www.moi.gov.iq/ArticleShow.aspx?ID=1810)dated February 13: a smoking gun. Here it is in rough translation:


Ministry of Interior waging a campaign to eliminate the “EMO”
The Director of Community Police of the Ministry of the Interior has been following up on the phenomenon of “EMO” or Satanists, and they have official approval to eliminate them as soon as possible, because the dimensions of this community have begun to move in another direction, and are now threatening danger.
It is noteworthy that the phenomenon of “EMO” derives from the word “emotional” in English. It is a widespread experience among adolescents, not just in Iraq, but in the majority of communities. They rely on appearance and movements as a means to express their feelings and embody their behavior and outlook on life.
Colonel Mushtaq Talib Mohammadawi said: “The EMO phenomenon was discovered by members of the Directorate in the capital, Baghdad. They have studied it, prepared reports and research, and gone to the Ministry of the Interior to obtain approval to follow up this case and determine how to eliminate them.”
He added that the Ministry of the Interior recognized the importance of this, and a priority was obtaining the approval of the Ministry of Education specifically for the preparation of an integrated plan that would let them enter all he schools in the capital.
He continued that they had marked the spread of the phenomenon specifically in the schools of Baghdad, but that they faced great difficulty because of the lack of a women’s cadre in the district that would permit them to pursue the issue in detail, especially as the phenomenon had spread most among girls aged 14 to 18 years. Signs included the following: they wear strange, tight clothes with skull-like decorations, and use school implements in the form of skulls, and put earrings in their noses and their tongues, along with other manifestations of the exotic.

“Eliminate.” Who can say exactly what that was meant to mean, in a country brutalized to the root over the last forty years? Toward the end the statement morphs into an analysis of the schools: but the Emos aren’t a “phenomenon” merely to be left to the Ministry of Education; otherwise why would the cops want unimpeded entry to their corridors?

Militias have been killing kids suspected of being “Emos” for several weeks now, in Baghdad and apparently several other cities. The scope of the killings is unclear, with figures from 56 to 90 dead traded in the media in the last three days. The best you can say of this press release is that it echoes with the cry of Henry II (http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/becket.htm)– you know, the English king who talked overloudly to himself about his Archbishop: “Will no one rid me of this turbulent priest?” His knights overheard him, and the priest turned up dead. The statement, by the most generous interpretation, sends a perhaps-inadvertent message to the militias that the Ministry wants the problem eliminated, and is looking for help. By a more sinister reading, it says the Ministry is eager to get its own hands bloody as well. Given the thuggish brutality (http://www.alternet.org/world/132559/did_nouri_al-maliki%27s_government_disappear_an_iraqi_mp_for_ex posing_human_rights_abuses/) of Nouri al-Maliki’s administration, the second is hardly unlikely.
http://scottlong1980.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/emolove1.png?w=300&h=168 (http://scottlong1980.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/emolove1.png)just you try

And who are the Emos? They’re kids addicted to weird music; they’re girls with earrings in strange places, or guys with their hair too long. In the midst of a moral panic galvanizing a demoralized and degraded country, these adolescents become the emblems of evil and the aliens to be extirpated.
I confess, four days ago I had no clue what Emos were. (Emus? Ewoks?) I’m too old and too tired to know how youth are living, or what they’re dying for. But they’ve become a New Thing in many Arab countries. Here, for instance, is an account (http://www.middle-east-online.com/english/?id=41560)of Emos in Damascus from just over a year ago:


With skinny bodies, oddly-combed hair, tight trousers and striped shirts, Syrian Emos are proving to the world they are not myth but indeed, a real phenomenon in Syrian society. …



Things changed drastically with advent of the third millennium; a communication boom accompanied by satellite TV and Internet invading Syrian society. All of a sudden, new ideas and trends began to infiltrate society, at every social level and in every age group—but mainly, the youth. … One of the novelties in Syrian culture, as a result of this social revolution, is the Syrian Emo. This community, revolved around young Syrians aged 14-17, brings people together regardless of their social background, who are all dedicated to a particular form of Western music.
Syrian Emos stand are introvert, like most of their peers, championing isolationism and alienation from society at large. The truth about them, nevertheless, has become indeed very blurred, attracting some because of the mysticism and scaring many away because all of what is said about their dabbling with suicide, sex and drugs. What best sums them up is, “Revolutionary teenagers with sensitive psyches.”

That pretty much sums up the anxieties: porous borders, infiltrated economies, technologically abetted invasions. Oh, yes, and sensitivity: the myths of penetration always take on the mask of gender. Good boys from the proper Ba’athist revolution, after all, don’t cry. I’m sure if Assad thought an anti-Emo campaign would discombobulate the opposition, or even be noticed amid his massacres, he’d be lining the strange-haired children up before his firing squads.
Or check this (http://www.west-middleeast.com/2010/10/teenagers-obsessions-in-2010-justin.html) out, from a slightly censorious regional blog:

I don ‘t really know much about what is going on at the moment for western teenagers but all I know is what I have been seeing this year in the Middle East region. …. I look around, and I see the streets are literally packed with kids that seriously lack style and etiquette. They walk in the Middle of the streets as if they don t care to be run over since they are fearless (EMO) …




One should not talk much and be extremely emotional, the pain felt by EMO is a pleasure and not actual pain as they tend to deep cut their arms and legs and do some major physical damage. As for the trend, the hair should at least cover 30% of the face/forehead, dark colors to be worn, tight jeans, scarves and jackets, all seasons!! And for the girls, make up should be dark with dark or multicolored nail polish.
The style is livelier than Colonel Mushtaq Talib Mohammedawi, but the sentiment runs parallel. The kids are bundles of contradictions: they’re in equal measure vulnerable to pain and “major physical damage,” and fearless. The contradictions sum up a kind of collective vulnerability, a sense of society wandering at widdershins with itself, both defenseless and defiant. Out of such mixed-up signifiers, violent hatred is born.
And now, in Iraq, they’re dying; kids are dying, and along with them other people who got sucked into the morass and maelstrom of hate. I almost wish the police would cover their tracks; it’d help me forget. In case they come to their senses and try to, though, I screensaved their confessional statement. Here’s the original:
http://scottlong1980.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/moi-page.jpg?w=584&h=502 (http://scottlong1980.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/moi-page.jpg)






http://paper-bird.net/2012/03/09/the-emo-killings-in-iraq-the-police-and-their-smoking-gun/

[russtafa]

you back defend your musso mates i know yah luve them .they should all be deported and then our crime rate would drop drastically

[buttslinger]

2) I don't know what a rock farmer is, and you evidently don't know much about Arabs.

The last time I saw any Arabs was in London!!! The only Arabs I see are on the news, Stavros, they keep a pretty low profile over here. I know that if I WERE an Arab, I'd do EXACTLY what they do.
There is a WAR going on over here too. Behind the scenes. Between Obama and Big Oil. A war for the future. Stalin could kill Oil Execs. Obama has to work within the laws. And neither really wants publicity right now. Maybe after November.


I still don't know what an Emo is, but I think you could have predicted this 10 years ago, when we were greeted as liberators. (that's a Dick Cheney joke)

What's a musso?

[onmyknees]

1) Electric cars are improving in efficiency and quality every year, but you Americans won't buy them.

2) I don't know what a rock farmer is, and you evidently don't know much about Arabs.

3) Joseph Stalin was Saddam Hussein's role model -isn't that one of the reasons Iraq is such a mess?

4) EMO's have been an emerging phenonemon among some Arab youth who are wired into the youth culture available through the internet, they are as prone to public ridicule in their countries in the same way beatniks, hippies and punks were in their day in our countries (I seem to recall two hippies in a film called Easy Rider having their heads blown off for daring to wear long hair in Texas).

5) There is some evidence that the deaths are sanctioned by the Police anyway, not just 'obscure' militias, and the governments of George Bush and Tony Blair knew full well that any form of democratically elected govt in Iraq would be dominated by the Shi'a whose links to Iran are mostly financial but nevertheless emotionally close. Hostility to an EMO is hardly surprising, and there are also claims that EMO's are either being mistaken for being gay, and may actually be gay.

6) Contemporary Iraq is not California, or London, I don't like it anymore than anyone else, but the way people dress in certain places requires a degree of sensitivity. Female tourists visiting St Peter's in Rome usually dress with the sensitivity that church expects; there was a time when any young men with hair touching his ears would not be allowed entry into Singapore unless he had it cut right there and then; and I once saw a Scotsman in a kilt walking through Jerusalem followed by screeching children who had no idea where this bloke in a skirt was coming from, and he did look mightily embarassed -but he wasn't murdered, after all.

Iraq is not on many people's list of holiday destinations, I wonder why.

Anyway, here is an alternative account of the killings:

The Emo killings in Iraq: The police and their smoking gun

Posted on 9 March 2012 (http://paper-bird.net/2012/03/09/the-emo-killings-in-iraq-the-police-and-their-smoking-gun/)
http://scottlong1980.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/logo_moi_s1.jpg?w=300&h=225 (http://scottlong1980.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/logo_moi_s1.jpg)Seal of Iraq's Interior Ministry: The Eye of Barad-Dur

An ordinary scribbler or blogger — a Bruce Bawer (http://www.towleroad.com/2011/07/gay-conservative-bruce-bawer-stunned-to-discover-that-oslo-killer-anders-breivik-cited-his-islamopho.html), say — would probably react if something rabid and ferocious he wrote, calling down violence on the heads of offenders, were followed up in a few days by somebody murdering the offenders in question. He’d try to deny the connection, or even delete the offending words. However deceitful, this mendacity at least shows a healthy sense of shame. But one thing that police have in common, around the world, is an utter absence of a sense of shame. Never apologize, never explain! Never understand, either — I mean, never even grasp how somebody might deduce that you’ve done something bad. The stupidity of the constabulary is, with death and taxes, one of life’s fixed points.

I’ve spent the evening writing to Iraqis, and looking for information on the Iraqi murder campaign (http://paper-bird.net/2012/03/08/gay-killings-emos-and-iraq-whats-going-on/) that targets “Emos” — harmless, Gothy teenage punks. And right on the website of Iraq’s Ministry of Interior is a press release (http://www.moi.gov.iq/ArticleShow.aspx?ID=1810)dated February 13: a smoking gun. Here it is in rough translation:


Ministry of Interior waging a campaign to eliminate the “EMO”
The Director of Community Police of the Ministry of the Interior has been following up on the phenomenon of “EMO” or Satanists, and they have official approval to eliminate them as soon as possible, because the dimensions of this community have begun to move in another direction, and are now threatening danger.
It is noteworthy that the phenomenon of “EMO” derives from the word “emotional” in English. It is a widespread experience among adolescents, not just in Iraq, but in the majority of communities. They rely on appearance and movements as a means to express their feelings and embody their behavior and outlook on life.
Colonel Mushtaq Talib Mohammadawi said: “The EMO phenomenon was discovered by members of the Directorate in the capital, Baghdad. They have studied it, prepared reports and research, and gone to the Ministry of the Interior to obtain approval to follow up this case and determine how to eliminate them.”
He added that the Ministry of the Interior recognized the importance of this, and a priority was obtaining the approval of the Ministry of Education specifically for the preparation of an integrated plan that would let them enter all he schools in the capital.
He continued that they had marked the spread of the phenomenon specifically in the schools of Baghdad, but that they faced great difficulty because of the lack of a women’s cadre in the district that would permit them to pursue the issue in detail, especially as the phenomenon had spread most among girls aged 14 to 18 years. Signs included the following: they wear strange, tight clothes with skull-like decorations, and use school implements in the form of skulls, and put earrings in their noses and their tongues, along with other manifestations of the exotic.
“Eliminate.” Who can say exactly what that was meant to mean, in a country brutalized to the root over the last forty years? Toward the end the statement morphs into an analysis of the schools: but the Emos aren’t a “phenomenon” merely to be left to the Ministry of Education; otherwise why would the cops want unimpeded entry to their corridors?

Militias have been killing kids suspected of being “Emos” for several weeks now, in Baghdad and apparently several other cities. The scope of the killings is unclear, with figures from 56 to 90 dead traded in the media in the last three days. The best you can say of this press release is that it echoes with the cry of Henry II (http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/becket.htm)– you know, the English king who talked overloudly to himself about his Archbishop: “Will no one rid me of this turbulent priest?” His knights overheard him, and the priest turned up dead. The statement, by the most generous interpretation, sends a perhaps-inadvertent message to the militias that the Ministry wants the problem eliminated, and is looking for help. By a more sinister reading, it says the Ministry is eager to get its own hands bloody as well. Given the thuggish brutality (http://www.alternet.org/world/132559/did_nouri_al-maliki%27s_government_disappear_an_iraqi_mp_for_ex posing_human_rights_abuses/) of Nouri al-Maliki’s administration, the second is hardly unlikely.
http://scottlong1980.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/emolove1.png?w=300&h=168 (http://scottlong1980.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/emolove1.png)just you try

And who are the Emos? They’re kids addicted to weird music; they’re girls with earrings in strange places, or guys with their hair too long. In the midst of a moral panic galvanizing a demoralized and degraded country, these adolescents become the emblems of evil and the aliens to be extirpated.
I confess, four days ago I had no clue what Emos were. (Emus? Ewoks?) I’m too old and too tired to know how youth are living, or what they’re dying for. But they’ve become a New Thing in many Arab countries. Here, for instance, is an account (http://www.middle-east-online.com/english/?id=41560)of Emos in Damascus from just over a year ago:


With skinny bodies, oddly-combed hair, tight trousers and striped shirts, Syrian Emos are proving to the world they are not myth but indeed, a real phenomenon in Syrian society. …



Things changed drastically with advent of the third millennium; a communication boom accompanied by satellite TV and Internet invading Syrian society. All of a sudden, new ideas and trends began to infiltrate society, at every social level and in every age group—but mainly, the youth. … One of the novelties in Syrian culture, as a result of this social revolution, is the Syrian Emo. This community, revolved around young Syrians aged 14-17, brings people together regardless of their social background, who are all dedicated to a particular form of Western music.
Syrian Emos stand are introvert, like most of their peers, championing isolationism and alienation from society at large. The truth about them, nevertheless, has become indeed very blurred, attracting some because of the mysticism and scaring many away because all of what is said about their dabbling with suicide, sex and drugs. What best sums them up is, “Revolutionary teenagers with sensitive psyches.”

That pretty much sums up the anxieties: porous borders, infiltrated economies, technologically abetted invasions. Oh, yes, and sensitivity: the myths of penetration always take on the mask of gender. Good boys from the proper Ba’athist revolution, after all, don’t cry. I’m sure if Assad thought an anti-Emo campaign would discombobulate the opposition, or even be noticed amid his massacres, he’d be lining the strange-haired children up before his firing squads.
Or check this (http://www.west-middleeast.com/2010/10/teenagers-obsessions-in-2010-justin.html) out, from a slightly censorious regional blog:

I don ‘t really know much about what is going on at the moment for western teenagers but all I know is what I have been seeing this year in the Middle East region. …. I look around, and I see the streets are literally packed with kids that seriously lack style and etiquette. They walk in the Middle of the streets as if they don t care to be run over since they are fearless (EMO) …



One should not talk much and be extremely emotional, the pain felt by EMO is a pleasure and not actual pain as they tend to deep cut their arms and legs and do some major physical damage. As for the trend, the hair should at least cover 30% of the face/forehead, dark colors to be worn, tight jeans, scarves and jackets, all seasons!! And for the girls, make up should be dark with dark or multicolored nail polish.
The style is livelier than Colonel Mushtaq Talib Mohammedawi, but the sentiment runs parallel. The kids are bundles of contradictions: they’re in equal measure vulnerable to pain and “major physical damage,” and fearless. The contradictions sum up a kind of collective vulnerability, a sense of society wandering at widdershins with itself, both defenseless and defiant. Out of such mixed-up signifiers, violent hatred is born.
And now, in Iraq, they’re dying; kids are dying, and along with them other people who got sucked into the morass and maelstrom of hate. I almost wish the police would cover their tracks; it’d help me forget. In case they come to their senses and try to, though, I screensaved their confessional statement. Here’s the original:
http://scottlong1980.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/moi-page.jpg?w=584&h=502 (http://scottlong1980.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/moi-page.jpg)




http://paper-bird.net/2012/03/09/the-emo-killings-in-iraq-the-police-and-their-smoking-gun/




5) There is some evidence that the deaths are sanctioned by the Police anyway, not just 'obscure' militias, and the governments of George Bush and Tony Blair knew full well that any form of democratically elected govt in Iraq would be dominated by the Shi'a whose links to Iran are mostly financial but nevertheless emotionally close. Hostility to an EMO is hardly surprising, and there are also claims that EMO's are either being mistaken for being gay, and may actually be gay.

So what's your Point....This is Bush's fault too? LMAO..There is no act these savages can commit that you won't try to mitigate it with 5000 words of bullshit. I've never really met anyone like you IRL. Is London full of Muslim apologists like you?

" Electric cars are improving in efficiency and quality every year, but you Americans won't buy them."

You're god damn right we won't buy them...not for 45 grand ( even with Obama's 10K rebate) and the chance of blowing your family up. Hey Stavros...they halted production on the Volt...did you get yourself one yet? LMAO

[buttslinger]

You're god damn right we won't buy them...not for 45 grand ( even with Obama's 10K rebate) and the chance of blowing your family up. Hey Stavros...they halted production on the Volt...did you get yourself one yet? LMAO

Hey Knees, Sean Hannity called- he want's his act back.......

Post some pictures of your bikes. Parroting imbeciles makes you look silly.

[russtafa]

5) There is some evidence that the deaths are sanctioned by the Police anyway, not just 'obscure' militias, and the governments of George Bush and Tony Blair knew full well that any form of democratically elected govt in Iraq would be dominated by the Shi'a whose links to Iran are mostly financial but nevertheless emotionally close. Hostility to an EMO is hardly surprising, and there are also claims that EMO's are either being mistaken for being gay, and may actually be gay.

So what's your Point....This is Bush's fault too? LMAO..There is no act these savages can commit that you won't try to mitigate it with 5000 words of bullshit. I've never really met anyone like you IRL. Is London full of Muslim apologists like you?

" Electric cars are improving in efficiency and quality every year, but you Americans won't buy them."

You're god damn right we won't buy them...not for 45 grand ( even with Obama's 10K rebate) and the chance of blowing your family up. Hey Stavros...they halted production on the Volt...did you get yourself one yet? LMAOhey On My Knees the pommies love Sharia law and want in the UK =fucking hopeless pommies no wonder they lost their empire, they are the joke of the century

[Silcc69]

You're god damn right we won't buy them...not for 45 grand ( even with Obama's 10K rebate) and the chance of blowing your family up. Hey Stavros...they halted production on the Volt...did you get yourself one yet? LMAO

Hey Knees, Sean Hannity called- he want's his act back.......

Post some pictures of your bikes. Parroting imbeciles makes you look silly.

LOL or maybe sum royalties.

[Stavros]

So what's your Point....This is Bush's fault too? LMAO..There is no act these savages can commit that you won't try to mitigate it with 5000 words of bullshit. I've never really met anyone like you IRL. Is London full of Muslim apologists like you?

" Electric cars are improving in efficiency and quality every year, but you Americans won't buy them."

You're god damn right we won't buy them...not for 45 grand ( even with Obama's 10K rebate) and the chance of blowing your family up. Hey Stavros...they halted production on the Volt...did you get yourself one yet? LMAO

1) For yet another time (do you ever read my replies?) I don't live in London.

2) If the price of an electric car is high it is because the technology may not yet be advanced enough to make them cheaper; but also because the cars need re-charging although in some parts of London you can re-charge the car while it is not in use, as well as overnight. Providing re-charging poins across the city will eventually be as common as gas stations. It is an early form of tomorrow's technology that seems to be more common in Europe than the USA; anyway, I dont drive a car, never have, and never intend to.

3) Arabs are not savages, if you want to try and understand the violence in Iraq try to understand how violence has been nurtured there as a way of daily life for the best part of a century, Iraq has been notorious as the Prussia of the Middle East for long enough, not that you know anything about it.

4) Yes of course Bush and Blair and responsible, who was it who decided to decapitate the Ba'athist state without pausing to think that their sunlit uplands of freedom and democracy might not dawn the next day? Answer -Bush, Cheney and Blair, against all the evidence. Iraq was always going to be a rough place after Saddam, that's how they do things there, it will take another generation at least for the place to calm down.

5) The point of the article (not my article as I didn't write it) was to offer an alternative explanation for the terrible murders, which I condemned.

It's called debate, where you enter a subject, and look at it from different angles, instead of taking a stand like Custer and deciding you have to defend it because otherwise its all over. It is a debate, not a war.

[Prospero]

I echo Stavros's point about Muslims and Arabs. They are NOT savages - anymore than the Americans who are in Afghanistan are savages - much as many might wish to portray yesterday's tragic massacre of innocent men, women and children by one deranged solider as an act of savagery pertaining to a whole people, As with my arguments with Russtafa - a consierably less articulate person than you - I ask, how many Arabs do you know personally OMK? How much time have you spent among them? How much do you understand about the immense contributions made to our civilisation over the centuries by Arab and islamic learning? or are you judgements formed by reading and listening to a particular strand of popular and populist American journalism and social and political commentators? (Folk like Mark Steyn, Ann Coulter, that imbecilic radio host Rush Limbaugh and the hate mongers of Fox news?) We are not apologists for the crimes of extremist Moslems, but people who try to understand the very real complexities of the situation. It's easier to think and black and white though, isn't it..

[russtafa]

I echo Stavros's point about Muslims and Arabs. They are NOT savages - anymore than the Americans who are in Afghanistan are savages - much as many might wish to portray yesterday's tragic massacre of innocent men, women and children by one deranged solider as an act of savagery pertaining to a whole people, As with my arguments with Russtafa - a consierably less articulate person than you - I ask, how many Arabs do you know personally OMK? How much time have you spent among them? How much do you understand about the immense contributions made to our civilisation over the centuries by Arab and islamic learning? or are you judgements formed by reading and listening to a particular strand of popular and populist American journalism and social and political commentators? (Folk like Mark Steyn, Ann Coulter, that imbecilic radio host Rush Limbaugh and the hate mongers of Fox news?) We are not apologists for the crimes of extremist Moslems, but people who try to understand the very real complexities of the situation. It's easier to think and black and white though, isn't it..oh fucking poo

[Silcc69]

I echo Stavros's point about Muslims and Arabs. They are NOT savages - anymore than the Americans who are in Afghanistan are savages - much as many might wish to portray yesterday's tragic massacre of innocent men, women and children by one deranged solider as an act of savagery pertaining to a whole people, As with my arguments with Russtafa - a consierably less articulate person than you - I ask, how many Arabs do you know personally OMK? How much time have you spent among them? How much do you understand about the immense contributions made to our civilisation over the centuries by Arab and islamic learning? or are you judgements formed by reading and listening to a particular strand of popular and populist American journalism and social and political commentators? (Folk like Mark Steyn, Ann Coulter, that imbecilic radio host Rush Limbaugh and the hate mongers of Fox news?) We are not apologists for the crimes of extremist Moslems, but people who try to understand the very real complexities of the situation. It's easier to think and black and white though, isn't it..

Good luck with that.

[Prospero]

Clearly Silcc69- the ever eloquent Russ's eloquent and well argued response being typical.

[russtafa]

the Arabs are the main protagonist's in our gun crime in Sydney and our jails are full of them ,they are savages "numnuts " and our most infamous Bilal Skaf and the systematic pack rapes of non Arab women=savages.hey islam is a religion of peace well i would love to see a sunni and shia mosque back to back in any part of the islamic world with out a lot of death and destruction.hey prospero is some arab fucking you up the arse or something ?because you seem to love them so much

[russtafa]

I echo Stavros's point about Muslims and Arabs. They are NOT savages - anymore than the Americans who are in Afghanistan are savages - much as many might wish to portray yesterday's tragic massacre of innocent men, women and children by one deranged solider as an act of savagery pertaining to a whole people, As with my arguments with Russtafa - a consierably less articulate person than you - I ask, how many Arabs do you know personally OMK? How much time have you spent among them? How much do you understand about the immense contributions made to our civilisation over the centuries by Arab and islamic learning? or are you judgements formed by reading and listening to a particular strand of popular and populist American journalism and social and political commentators? (Folk like Mark Steyn, Ann Coulter, that imbecilic radio host Rush Limbaugh and the hate mongers of Fox news?) We are not apologists for the crimes of extremist Moslems, but people who try to understand the very real complexities of the situation. It's easier to think and black and white though, isn't it..you pommies could not run a chook rafle .when is the uk going to turn totally to sharia law =hahaha.well old bean ,pip,pip,what ,jolly good show:dead::dead::dead::dead:stupid poms

[Prospero]

I've had with the absolute imbecilic remarks posted here by Russtafa - one of the world's cretins. I am blocking his contributions. Life is too short to waste on his ill-informed, racist and hatefilled excretions. Bye.

[russtafa]

pip,pip old bean.oh i say flabbergasted old chap=yah fucking cretin.I know there are good poms but there are too many like you fucking up your own country and trying to fuck up the world...so everything is like England....Bye Bye old man lol

[buttslinger]

The guy who took Rush Limbo's spot on the radio just got back from Australia where he did lots of Conservative Speaking Engagements and he said Conservatism is real big there. When I lived in a cheap neighborhood I had like 20 mexicans living next door. The CHILDREN were gangsta!!! It took an act of violence to make me move, and while most of my neighbors were good people, the kids were always ripping down my fence.

[Silcc69]

the Arabs are the main protagonist's in our gun crime in Sydney and our jails are full of them ,they are savages "numnuts " and our most infamous Bilal Skaf and the systematic pack rapes of non Arab women=savages.hey islam is a religion of peace well i would love to see a sunni and shia mosque back to back in any part of the islamic world with out a lot of death and destruction.hey prospero is some arab fucking you up the arse or something ?because you seem to love them so much

I know a muslim guy he's actually a somalian and lives in Melbourne. I have know muslims for half of my life and they never exhibited terrorist acts. Not saying that they are perfect because I have seen some do criminal acts but only drug shit and thievery.

[russtafa]

THAT'S ENOUGH FOR ME GET RID OF THE MUSLIM FILTH.our jails are full of them for various crimes far out numbering every one else except the abos

[Faldur]

I heard Al Frankin is teaming up with a new radio station thats going to take Rush down.. can't wait..

[Silcc69]

I heard Al Frankin is teaming up with a new radio station thats going to take Rush down.. can't wait..

There is probably a specific reason why liberal shows can't fuck with conservative shows in terms of support or ratings. But i'm sure Rush will drop dead before he goes off the air.

[hippifried]

When I lived in a cheap neighborhood I had like 20 mexicans living next door. The CHILDREN were gangsta!!! It took an act of violence to make me move, and while most of my neighbors were good people, the kids were always ripping down my fence.
Well I'm the only one on my block who doesn't speak Spanish. The default spoken language is "Spanglish". So what? The common mode of dress for almost anyone under 40 is designer "gangsta". So what? There's a little car with way too many teenagers in it & a bass boost that's bigger than the engine, rattling the windows with recognizable rap music. When it comes back by 20 minutes later (same car & crowd), it's rattling the windows with Mexican polka music. Go figure. There's almost as many tattoo parlors as there are churches, but the churches are dstill full on Sunday with inked believers.

The point of that diatribe is that there's a huge difference between "gangsta" & gangster. You can't spot real gangsters by media stereotypes. You can't even define "gangster" or "gang" by media stereotypes at all. Gangs are about turf first & foremost, followed by clique, followed by protection. Everything else in secondary & down the priority list.

I have more to say about this, but I have something else I need to take care of right at this minute, & I don't know how long it'll take. See ya later.

[buttslinger]

Que passa, hippifried.
I can relate to Russtafa. They used to joke that directions to my neighborhood were "follow the police cars"
A hopped up crack dealer chased me home jogging and started wailing on me. I couldn't really hurt him because they knew where I lived.
I heard my fence being broken, I ran outside to catch the kids, one of them took a brick from my garden and smashed somebodies head through his car window.
I got broken into twice. Teens.
The little kids used to walk in my house.
My neighbor was black. The white kids would rip down his fence.
The good people stayed inside, but the kids ruled the streets.
These were brick townhomes, but the people were poor. A guy I worked with lived there, but his kids kept getting in trouble. Hanging with the wrong cowd. In Elementary School!! OVER>

[Prospero]

Buttslinger - scarey stuff. Some neigbourhoods are tough. Crime is tough. Gangs are scum.
But surely you don't draw from this the view that all (insert the minority of your choice and experience - blacks, whites, hispanics, arabs, moslems, whites, Italians, Eskimo) are evil? Just that some when driven or drawn to crime for whatever reason can be.

[hippifried]

A hopped up crack dealer chased me home jogging and started wailing on me. I couldn't really hurt him because they knew where I lived.

Huh? I didn't just get here from Mars. You couldn't really hurt him because you couldn't hurt him. Nobody conciously allows themselves to get beat up if there's anything they can do about it at the moment. Furthermore, anybody who's ever been in a fight (pretty much every male on the planet who's old enough to walk) knows that allowing someone to wail on you is an open invitation for them to come back & do it again. Just sayin'...


I can relate to Russtafa.
How so? He's talking a bunch of blatant bigotry, & trying to make the case that crime & every other social ill is caused by people of swarthy complexion &/or who call the goblin they worship by a different name. You trying to say that teenage problems (We were all teens once & we all knew the assholes) have something to do with national origin, family origin, language, skin tone, or anything other than teenage itself?

What Rustaffa won't tell you, & will most likely deny, is that Muslims in Australia are routinely terrorized & have been since restrictions on their immigration was lifted. Now there's a segregation problem. There always is, with every immigrant wave anywhere. The Greeks & other central European ESLs had the same problem over there in the '40s & '50s. Just like here with the Mexicans, & every group of European & Asian immigrants before them. Among all the griping about Muslims, you won't hear about the roving gangs of good upstanding young white folks who "patrol" the fringes of the containment areas. It's a lot like the klan used to be here.

[russtafa]

Huh? I didn't just get here from Mars. You couldn't really hurt him because you couldn't hurt him. Nobody conciously allows themselves to get beat up if there's anything they can do about it at the moment. Furthermore, anybody who's ever been in a fight (pretty much every male on the planet who's old enough to walk) knows that allowing someone to wail on you is an open invitation for them to come back & do it again. Just sayin'...


How so? He's talking a bunch of blatant bigotry, & trying to make the case that crime & every other social ill is caused by people of swarthy complexion &/or who call the goblin they worship by a different name. You trying to say that teenage problems (We were all teens once & we all knew the assholes) have something to do with national origin, family origin, language, skin tone, or anything other than teenage itself?

What Rustaffa won't tell you, & will most likely deny, is that Muslims in Australia are routinely terrorized & have been since restrictions on their immigration was lifted. Now there's a segregation problem. There always is, with every immigrant wave anywhere. The Greeks & other central European ESLs had the same problem over there in the '40s & '50s. Just like here with the Mexicans, & every group of European & Asian immigrants before them. Among all the griping about Muslims, you won't hear about the roving gangs of good upstanding young white folks who "patrol" the fringes of the containment areas. It's a lot like the klan used to be here.what a load of hippie bullshit you just run with it like the shits.look at the stats yah dumb hippie and get off the foul hippie weed

[Prospero]

Hippiefried - totally agree with your last post. Ignorance and fear of "the other" has always bred a violent response. It was ever thus. Russtafa is trapped in the miasmic midden of his class and ignorance. He can't help being a thug - so should really be pitied. Sorry to say I won't see his doubtless abusive response to this remark since I've blocked him.

[Faldur]

There is probably a specific reason why liberal shows can't fuck with conservative shows in terms of support or ratings. But i'm sure Rush will drop dead before he goes off the air.

No one wants to listen to liberal talk, its been tried and proven. The only left leaning talk radio that has survived the long run is NPR, and in part the government funding is what keeps it alive.

I don't think you will see Rush go until he drops. With his money he is going to want to enjoy a little of it before he goes.

[russtafa]

These upper middle class lefties will always try to betray their fellow countrymen they are the ones that imported the problem in the first place and the rich make on the deal by exploiting the new cheap labour they don't care about crime because they live nowhere near the problem.the middle and upper class just tut ,tut when the lower middle class and working class complain and point the racist finger .bloody great aint it!we used to have safe streets now unsafe,women and children could walk freely =not any more.and types like prospero just walk away because they have money and their beliefs don't fit with reality:hide-1::hide-1::hide-1:

[buttslinger]

Hey now
If I were Russtafa, I would feel EXACTLY like him, right or wrong.
If I lived in Israel, I would HATE Palestinians. If I lived in Palestine, I would HATE Israel.
You can't argue with HISTORY. The US and Western Europe is nice and peaceful because WE BOMBED THE SHIT out of Hitler and Tojo. (and hundreds of thousands civilians.) Violence works.
I was jogging around my neighborhood at night, when some "jigs" slinging drugs on the corner one block from my house, threw a rock at me (whitey)
In one motion I went down to pick up the rock and maybe throw it back, but I dropped it. Twenty seconds later some hopped up YOUNG BUCK came tearing down the sidewalk at me. He picked up a metal "for rent" sign from my next door neighbor and swung down at my head. I blocked it with my hand, specifically my middle finger. A couple weeks later I had to go to the doctor because it was still numb. Anyway, I heard all his "home boys" running towards us, and I thought, well, I'm either dead or saved. The brothers grabbed their friend and pulled him back to the corner. The next night I jogged right throught the "gangstas" and one nodded the "we're cool" sign at me. Now I'm not saying I'm an Emo, or a Muslim, ..I'm a white boy. I don't like ANYBODY selling dope accross the street from my house. My house I fixed up, and planted flowers and built a white picket fence.
One time I was in my back yard, a young black boy was standing in the commons area, outside my fence, and further away two young black boys were on bicycles. The two cyclists were daring the lone kid to throw a rock through my window. They were having a good ole time, and the lone kid looked troubled, he didn't know what to do. These NEIGHBORHOOD kids knew where I lived. They were hostile towards ME.
I eventually shelled out a hundred grand to move to a better neighborhood. I haven't been a racist since.

[hippifried]

Oh. So now we've changed races of the bad guys? Gone from Mexicans to "jigs". Oh yeah, I shouold have remembered that in 'dittospeak', "crack dealer" = negro & negro on the corner = crack dealer. I guess it doesn't matter to a caste frame of mind. By the way: In the real world, I've never heard of somebody who's holding (especially a dealer) starting a violent altercation in the middle of a public thorofare for no reason. I ain't buying the reverse racism claim for a nano-second. They're all hostile to you, but none of it has any relation to your obvious hostility, right?

Let's stay in the real world for a few:
The vast majority of Jews, Israeli or otherwise, don't hate Palistinians or Muslims in general. The vast majpority of Palistinians don't hate Israelis or Jews in general. The vast vast majority of Jews, Muslims, Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, Confucians, etc don't hate anybody in general based on the circumstances of their birth.
I can argue with your take on history, easy.
The US has been in a perpetual state of war since Dec, 1941 at least.
Europe gets along these days because they no longer have dictators & powerful monarchs fighting over which end of the egg to crack first. None of that crap, throughout history, has ever been about the people on one side of a line hating the people on the other side.
Violence never works & never has. Not to solve social problems anyway. Pax Romana was/is a myth. Violence causes the problem. Everything after that is usually just reactionary bullshit. Over what? Some kind of ism? Vengeance? Irrational fear most likely. I look at all this finger pointing (It's always somebody else's fault), as a personal problem with the pointer. Hatred & violence isn't human nature at all.

[russtafa]

Oh. So now we've changed races of the bad guys? Gone from Mexicans to "jigs". Oh yeah, I shouold have remembered that in 'dittospeak', "crack dealer" = negro & negro on the corner = crack dealer. I guess it doesn't matter to a caste frame of mind. By the way: In the real world, I've never heard of somebody who's holding (especially a dealer) starting a violent altercation in the middle of a public thorofare for no reason. I ain't buying the reverse racism claim for a nano-second. They're all hostile to you, but none of it has any relation to your obvious hostility, right?

Let's stay in the real world for a few:
The vast majority of Jews, Israeli or otherwise, don't hate Palistinians or Muslims in general. The vast majpority of Palistinians don't hate Israelis or Jews in general. The vast vast majority of Jews, Muslims, Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, Confucians, etc don't hate anybody in general based on the circumstances of their birth.
I can argue with your take on history, easy.
The US has been in a perpetual state of war since Dec, 1941 at least.
Europe gets along these days because they no longer have dictators & powerful monarchs fighting over which end of the egg to crack first. None of that crap, throughout history, has ever been about the people on one side of a line hating the people on the other side.
Violence never works & never has. Not to solve social problems anyway. Pax Romana was/is a myth. Violence causes the problem. Everything after that is usually just reactionary bullshit. Over what? Some kind of ism? Vengeance? Irrational fear most likely. I look at all this finger pointing (It's always somebody else's fault), as a personal problem with the pointer. Hatred & violence isn't human nature at all.bullshit typical hippy philosophy and it never worked.bloody day dreamers

[Stavros]

Oh. So now we've changed races of the bad guys? Gone from Mexicans to "jigs". Oh yeah, I shouold have remembered that in 'dittospeak', "crack dealer" = negro & negro on the corner = crack dealer. I guess it doesn't matter to a caste frame of mind. By the way: In the real world, I've never heard of somebody who's holding (especially a dealer) starting a violent altercation in the middle of a public thorofare for no reason. I ain't buying the reverse racism claim for a nano-second. They're all hostile to you, but none of it has any relation to your obvious hostility, right?

Let's stay in the real world for a few:
The vast majority of Jews, Israeli or otherwise, don't hate Palistinians or Muslims in general. The vast majpority of Palistinians don't hate Israelis or Jews in general. The vast vast majority of Jews, Muslims, Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, Confucians, etc don't hate anybody in general based on the circumstances of their birth.
I can argue with your take on history, easy.
The US has been in a perpetual state of war since Dec, 1941 at least.
Europe gets along these days because they no longer have dictators & powerful monarchs fighting over which end of the egg to crack first. None of that crap, throughout history, has ever been about the people on one side of a line hating the people on the other side.
Violence never works & never has. Not to solve social problems anyway. Pax Romana was/is a myth. Violence causes the problem. Everything after that is usually just reactionary bullshit. Over what? Some kind of ism? Vengeance? Irrational fear most likely. I look at all this finger pointing (It's always somebody else's fault), as a personal problem with the pointer. Hatred & violence isn't human nature at all.

I agree with you Hippifried, especially Violence never works & never has; all wars are violent, but take place because politics has failed; yet all wars end when either the people fighting are exhausted from the violence, or politics finds a new way or new will to negotiate; and an armistice is signed; but not always a peace treaty.

There was a time when the dope in Europe was smoked in opium dens, not a cool black dude in sight; who was it who used to sell hashish to Picasso and Modigliani in Paris c1910? I was surprised years ago when I read Aldous Huxley's Eyeless in Gaza -dope in London in 1936? Of course. And not a cool black dude in baggy trousers anywhere to be seen. Funny old world, innit?

[buttslinger]

It was the CHINKS selling opium! ha ha

Hippifried, I swear to you, a crazy hopped up jig attacked me for NO reason. I swear to God. His friends had to come grab him. The Mexicans were no problem sober, In the county I lived in then the Republicans in charge came down hard on them after I left.
Now, back to the jigs....You've never spent any time in jail, hunh? Ever hear this: APB: Black Male-late teens, early twenties.......

I think I get your point. To a large extent I'm baiting you guys. Racism is bad. I get it. But if you think Indians don't hate Pakistanis, and Ukranians don't hate Russians, you're nuts. Think BOSNIA.

And VIOLENCE WORKS. Ask the Romans. They didn't conquer the world with squirt guns. Ask George Washington. Police aren't armed with harsh language. They carry guns. The USA has 50,000 ICBMs. Millions of Jews weren't murdered in the Dark Ages. That was 70 years ago! That's not finger pointing. That's called getting things done. Herding the sheep. Hatred is real Racism is real. Just because people are good doesn't mean they're safe.

[Yvonne183]

I agree with you Hippifried, especially Violence never works & never has; all wars are violent, but take place because politics has failed; yet all wars end when either the people fighting are exhausted from the violence, or politics finds a new way or new will to negotiate; and an armistice is signed; but not always a peace treaty.

There was a time when the dope in Europe was smoked in opium dens, not a cool black dude in sight; who was it who used to sell hashish to Picasso and Modigliani in Paris c1910? I was surprised years ago when I read Aldous Huxley's Eyeless in Gaza -dope in London in 1936? Of course. And not a cool black dude in baggy trousers anywhere to be seen. Funny old world, innit?

It's not so much who sells drugs in the past compared to who sells drugs today. The problem I face when I lived in the city was these gang bangers would pick on people with no reason. They would have shoot outs constantly with innocent people being targets. I don't know exactly but I have a good idea that murders in 1936 London was nothing like Baltimore 2011. It's a wrong comparison that you make. I could care less who sold or took drugs, it's the shootings from drug dealers that concern me, and from my window it ain't red necks doing the shooting.

As far as violence is not the answer that is a load of shit. If that was so then maybe the UK should disband it's army, cause to you guys violence is not the answer. Same goes on a lower level, one has to use violence at times to protect themselves, if not you end up dead fast.

There was a store where I lived that was never robbed even though all the other stores in the area were robbed multiple times. The reason? It was owned by the mob and everyone knew that and the threat of violence was used to protect the store from robbers. Just the THREAT of violence was enough. Same thing at a club I went to that had Hells Angels who would also hang out at. The Hells Angels never caused trouble and their presence meant that no one else would cause trouble either. Just the threat of violence was enough to make that club safe. Yet at other clubs violence was the norm cause they knew they could get away with it.

Another thing, what happens when one of you guys needs help and you call the police. Doesn't the police use some sort of violence to get the bad guys or do the police just write the bad guy a letter explaining how bad they were. You fools were so much for the occupy movement yet violence was the norm with those clowns, so don't tell me you now think that violence isn't the answer, BS.

I sometimes wonder where some people like Hippie, prospero live, it seems like you live in a monastery, void of actual contact with every day situations.

[russtafa]

It's not so much who sells drugs in the past compared to who sells drugs today. The problem I face when I lived in the city was these gang bangers would pick on people with no reason. They would have shoot outs constantly with innocent people being targets. I don't know exactly but I have a good idea that murders in 1936 London was nothing like Baltimore 2011. It's a wrong comparison that you make. I could care less who sold or took drugs, it's the shootings from drug dealers that concern me, and from my window it ain't red necks doing the shooting.

As far as violence is not the answer that is a load of shit. If that was so then maybe the UK should disband it's army, cause to you guys violence is not the answer. Same goes on a lower level, one has to use violence at times to protect themselves, if not you end up dead fast.

There was a store where I lived that was never robbed even though all the other stores in the area were robbed multiple times. The reason? It was owned by the mob and everyone knew that and the threat of violence was used to protect the store from robbers. Just the THREAT of violence was enough. Same thing at a club I went to that had Hells Angels who would also hang out at. The Hells Angels never caused trouble and their presence meant that no one else would cause trouble either. Just the threat of violence was enough to make that club safe. Yet at other clubs violence was the norm cause they knew they could get away with it.

Another thing, what happens when one of you guys needs help and you call the police. Doesn't the police use some sort of violence to get the bad guys or do the police just write the bad guy a letter explaining how bad they were. You fools were so much for the occupy movement yet violence was the norm with those clowns, so don't tell me you now think that violence isn't the answer, BS.

I sometimes wonder where some people like Hippie, prospero live, it seems like you live in a monastery, void of actual contact with every day situations.yvonne you just depth charged these cowards :Bowdown::Bowdown::Bowdown::Bowdown::Bowdown::Bowd own::Bowdown: but they will dispute it with the turtle theory =they just go into their shells

[buttslinger]

Lemmee put it like this:
Are there neighborhoods you'd be afraid to walk through alone at night?

[Yvonne183]

Lemmee put it like this:
Are there neighborhoods you'd be afraid to walk through alone at night?


I'd like to answer you. Yes there are many neighborhoods that i fear walking alone at night and even during the daytime.

What I'd like to see is people like Hippie, Prospero, and others like them to live for the summer months in a bad neighborhood in Baltimore. They should have a hidden camera on themselves so we all could see what kind of reception they get from people who already live there. Then we could see how people treat them, maybe we might even witness their deaths. It's so easy to live in the UK, try living in Baltimore for a few months and then tell me not all people are bad, you'll see it's quite a lot, well anyway, they will be bad to you.

And back to the violence is never the answer. What if you was to come home and some intruder was raping your children, would you show violence to get him to stop or would you politely ask the bad guy to stop. Or would you foolishly call the police and wait for them to arrive and then tell the police that you are against violence of any sort and they should use kindness when dealing with the intruder.

I gotta tell ya,,, some of you lot are real bozo's that don't have a clue to life.

[Stavros]

It's not so much who sells drugs in the past compared to who sells drugs today. The problem I face when I lived in the city was these gang bangers would pick on people with no reason. They would have shoot outs constantly with innocent people being targets. I don't know exactly but I have a good idea that murders in 1936 London was nothing like Baltimore 2011. It's a wrong comparison that you make. I could care less who sold or took drugs, it's the shootings from drug dealers that concern me, and from my window it ain't red necks doing the shooting.

As far as violence is not the answer that is a load of shit. If that was so then maybe the UK should disband it's army, cause to you guys violence is not the answer. Same goes on a lower level, one has to use violence at times to protect themselves, if not you end up dead fast.

There was a store where I lived that was never robbed even though all the other stores in the area were robbed multiple times. The reason? It was owned by the mob and everyone knew that and the threat of violence was used to protect the store from robbers. Just the THREAT of violence was enough. Same thing at a club I went to that had Hells Angels who would also hang out at. The Hells Angels never caused trouble and their presence meant that no one else would cause trouble either. Just the threat of violence was enough to make that club safe. Yet at other clubs violence was the norm cause they knew they could get away with it.

Another thing, what happens when one of you guys needs help and you call the police. Doesn't the police use some sort of violence to get the bad guys or do the police just write the bad guy a letter explaining how bad they were. You fools were so much for the occupy movement yet violence was the norm with those clowns, so don't tell me you now think that violence isn't the answer, BS.

I sometimes wonder where some people like Hippie, prospero live, it seems like you live in a monastery, void of actual contact with every day situations.

Yvonne, I think your complaint is shaped by your specific experience, but not everyone shares it.

Context does have content, the East End of London was synonymous with crime for more than a century, before and after Dickens -crime syndicates, drug dens, prostitution (ever hear of Jack the Ripper?), bent police, you name it. The docks of London were an emporium of goods moving in and out of the world, an irresistible market place for crooks as well as merchants. These elements of crime, not always directly caused by poverty but often feeding off it, have been common in major cities in the UK and around the world.

You don't ask the deeper questions about where the drugs and the guns come from, they are just there as a given and the resulting 'law of the jungle' that develops on the streets because of bad policing, enables you to set the benchmark for justice -kill or be killed. This is a one-way street, a no-go area that never asks what came before it, and whether or not there is an alternative.

In the 1970s I used to work in the casualty of a central London hospital aned saw all sorts of things, from victims of passionate crimes, gang violence, stabbings and so on, but it was the drug addicts and their repetitive OD's that occupied most of our time. And what was noticeably different in the 1980s compared to previous decades, was the horizontal growth of the drug problem in the UK, and then the emergence of guns as a weapon of choice -hard though it is to believe, there was a time in the UK when guns were rare outside the most ruthless crime syndicates like the Kray and the Richardson brothers in East and South London.

The evidence from Washington DC over the last 25 years shows that the epidemic of gun crime that accompanied the use of crack cocaine has declined sharply. In part because of tougher policing and sentencing, but also because demand for the drug has collapsed as a younger generation having lived through turf wars and seen their friends and families wasted, have not followed them into the trade, or use of crack. As for gangs, the sub-culture of gangs, which has been responsible for too many knife-related murders in the UK, is symptomatic of a crisis in family life, which itself is often -but not always- shaped by unemployment, poor education, and the absence of love.

I have lived in rough neighbourhoods, I have been attacked, I know what its like, and no, I did not fight back which is what the lad wanted, and I did not report it to the police, I just took it as part of the drama these people need to have to think they are alive. Had this lad been employed he would have been at home sleeping before a day's work. I moved because my studies and then my work took me to other places, but yes, I had a choice.

I do understand where you are coming from on this issue, but there are deeper forces at work that make sections of cities look like war zones, and rather than accept it as some kind of unchanging reality, there are ways of tackling poverty, unemployment, bad education and crime, but as you know these require the kind of good governance our major cities too often do not have.

[Yvonne183]

Baltimore city has a population roughly 500,000 and has a murder rate of about 250-300 murders a year. Even with Jack the Rippers 5 known killings, does Londons murder rate compare the same to Baltimore's?

[Stavros]

And VIOLENCE WORKS. Ask the Romans. They didn't conquer the world with squirt guns. Ask George Washington. Police aren't armed with harsh language. They carry guns. The USA has 50,000 ICBMs. Millions of Jews weren't murdered in the Dark Ages. That was 70 years ago! That's not finger pointing. That's called getting things done. Herding the sheep. Hatred is real Racism is real. Just because people are good doesn't mean they're safe.

This is nonsense, the Romans may have colonised Europe and parts of Western Asia through the violence of their military machine, but for most of its history, the Roman Empire was too busy running an effective bureaucracy to send its soldiers into battle. The Romans are famous for military Keynesianism, the need for troops on foot or on wheels to move swiftly led to the road-building for which they became famous; the erection of municipal authority which parcelled up territoties into enclaves created well-built fortresses and buildings with baths, indoor plumbing, and so on. The Romans believed in education too, even if it a lot of it was for the 'Glory of Rome' and its Gods, but if they used violence with such success, you need to explain why the same violence brought an end to the Empire -you never heard of Imperial Overstretch? Violence neither caused the growth of the Empire not led to its downfall, the causes were a mixture of politics economics and social processes that eventually proved too complex to be goverrned from Rome, or on Roman principles. Nazi Germany was created through violence, so why did it fail? Overstretch, the incompetence of the German economy, an ideology based on unrealistic goals, you really need to read some history rather than rely on Hollywood for your education.

[Stavros]

Baltimore city has a population roughly 500,000 and has a murder rate of about 250-300 murders a year. Even with Jack the Rippers 5 known killings, does Londons murder rate compare the same to Baltimore's?

But that isn't the point. Are you saying unemployment has no role at all in the deterioration of certain neighbourhoods in Baltimore? Bad education, broken families? Isn't the drug trade an alternative economic option for the people who live there? Would they be blowing each other's brains out if the west side was the centre of Baltimore's fruit and vegetable trade?

[buttslinger]

Stavros-History is a product of hormones.

[fred41]

But that isn't the point. Are you saying unemployment has no role at all in the deterioration of certain neighbourhoods in Baltimore? Bad education, broken families? Isn't the drug trade an alternative economic option for the people who live there? Would they be blowing each other's brains out if the west side was the centre of Baltimore's fruit and vegetable trade?

I believe that her point might be: the larger socioeconomic reason for the neighborhood being a hell hole doesn't particularly interest the person who is trying to protect themselves and their family.

It also seems that she is saying (and I wholeheartedly agree with this point), that it seems a bit delusional to think that violence is never necessary. The example she gave about protecting one's family from rape or other heinous acts was never really directly answered. If I answered using some of your examples (I'm not trying to put words in anyone's mouths...so please correct me if I'm wrong and I'll apologize)...then that family is toast...because nothing will be done to protect them (in which case everyone better get religious real fast and pray there's a heaven).

The same applies to a country...are you saying that a country shouldn't directly defend itself if it is attacked...they should just keep negotiating with the aggressor and hope that someone in their country is still left standing after the smoke clears?

[russtafa]

I know i am 6ft3 and a shifter in my hand and there is another bloke that's 5.ft4 and 60 kgs and a criminal is weighing who to rob i know i would go for

[Dino Velvet]

I have lived in rough neighbourhoods, I have been attacked, I know what its like, and no, I did not fight back which is what the lad wanted, and I did not report it to the police, I just took it as part of the drama these people need to have to think they are alive.

Stavros, this is what I don't understand. If a man is attacking you and will keep attacking why not defend yourself instead of trying to analyze him while in the act of taking a beating? What if he had a knife too? Your beating would have been a murder. I might disagree with you but this makes me worry a bit. You've been very lucky.

[russtafa]

Stavros, this is what I don't understand. If a man is attacking you and will keep attacking why not defend yourself instead of trying to analyze him while in the act of taking a beating? What if he had a knife too? Your beating would have been a murder. I might disagree with you but this makes me worry a bit. You've been very lucky.sort of like MR MAGOO

[Stavros]

Stavros, this is what I don't understand. If a man is attacking you and will keep attacking why not defend yourself instead of trying to analyze him while in the act of taking a beating? What if he had a knife too? Your beating would have been a murder. I might disagree with you but this makes me worry a bit. You've been very lucky.

I have been lucky, that's true. On the night in question, I had been packing for a move the following day, and had not eaten properly. Around 11.30 I think I walked for about 10 minutes from where I lived to a burger place to get a snack, and as it happened because I knew how much it cost, I took almost the exact money. On the way back I had almost fininshed the burger when a young lad on a bike on the road shouted something, I didn't realise, at me, so I ignored it. He then mounted the pavement and blocked my path. I don't recall what he said at first but his intention was to rob me, which I said was pointless as I had I think five pence on me, although he was welcome to it if he wanted it. I know you think I'm a cunt, he said, (assuming I was even thinking about him, which I wasn't) but I'm 19! He looked like he was 12. He wanted to rob me and/or get into a fight and put his hand in his pocket and said he had a knife, although I never saw it. I just refused to panic, or get upset or challenge him or use bad language, and once he realised I was a waste of time he cycled away. Confrontation ignites violence, I just don't know how to do it. On the two other occasions, one more serious than another, there was a passer-by who grabbed the attacker. In the more serious case I ended up in the police station (it was in a foreign country) but there were no charges. I am lucky, and these days I try to make sure I am not in places I don't know late at night.

But I do think that often people get into confrontations and violence ensues because someone panics, or does something or says something and a fist or knife is thrown; and I think there is a difference between ramdom attacks, and gang-related attacks where there is usually a defined target.

Self-defence is a right that states have, many states could use diplomacy more than they do, but the fact remains that wars are a failure of politics, even though politics has to return to end the war and whatever the grievance was that started it.

As for a rapist breaking into a home, I cannot answer that because I have no experience of it, and I honestly don't believe such situations ought to be viewed through the distorted prism of the movies or tv, which is where too many people get their information on this from.

If you drive a car up a one-way street that has a dead-end, you have to turn round and go back the way you came. Better to not make the turning into that road in the first place.

[Dino Velvet]

I have been lucky, that's true. On the night in question, I had been packing for a move the following day, and had not eaten properly. Around 11.30 I think I walked for about 10 minutes from where I lived to a burger place to get a snack, and as it happened because I knew how much it cost, I took almost the exact money. On the way back I had almost fininshed the burger when a young lad on a bike on the road shouted something, I didn't realise, at me, so I ignored it. He then mounted the pavement and blocked my path. I don't recall what he said at first but his intention was to rob me, which I said was pointless as I had I think five pence on me, although he was welcome to it if he wanted it. I know you think I'm a cunt, he said, (assuming I was even thinking about him, which I wasn't) but I'm 19! He looked like he was 12. He wanted to rob me and/or get into a fight and put his hand in his pocket and said he had a knife, although I never saw it. I just refused to panic, or get upset or challenge him or use bad language, and once he realised I was a waste of time he cycled away. Confrontation ignites violence, I just don't know how to do it. On the two other occasions, one more serious than another, there was a passer-by who grabbed the attacker. In the more serious case I ended up in the police station (it was in a foreign country) but there were no charges. I am lucky, and these days I try to make sure I am not in places I don't know late at night.

But I do think that often people get into confrontations and violence ensues because someone panics, or does something or says something and a fist or knife is thrown; and I think there is a difference between ramdom attacks, and gang-related attacks where there is usually a defined target.

Self-defence is a right that states have, many states could use diplomacy more than they do, but the fact remains that wars are a failure of politics, even though politics has to return to end the war and whatever the grievance was that started it.

As for a rapist breaking into a home, I cannot answer that because I have no experience of it, and I honestly don't believe such situations ought to be viewed through the distorted prism of the movies or tv, which is where too many people get their information on this from.

If you drive a car up a one-way street that has a dead-end, you have to turn round and go back the way you came. Better to not make the turning into that road in the first place.

Avoiding bad neighborhoods and avoidable confrontations is definitely the best policy. I agree. I hope the luck stays with you.

[russtafa]

if i can't get out of a situation well i just revert back to the old me and hope no one see's me

[hippifried]

From Yvonne183:

And back to the violence is never the answer.
From Fred 41:

it seems a bit delusional to think that violence is never necessary.
Where did this come from? Did I miss something? Maybe an invisible post in this thread somewhere? Or maybe this is just another delusional halucination from the land of memetic stereotypes. More likely scenario is that Fred was just paraphrasing Yvonne & she was just makinshitup.

I said: "Violence never works & never has. Not to solve social problems anyway."
Buttslinger retorted: "And VIOLENCE WORKS. Ask the Romans. They didn't conquer the world with squirt guns. Ask George Washington. Police aren't armed with harsh language. They carry guns. The USA has 50,000 ICBMs. Millions of Jews weren't murdered in the Dark Ages. That was 70 years ago! That's not finger pointing. That's called getting things done. Herding the sheep. Hatred is real Racism is real. Just because people are good doesn't mean they're safe."

That's what started the current sidetrack. I was getting ready to reply, when I came across this... mmmm... I'm willing to call it misinterpretation instead of misrepresentation just to be polite. Couldn't let it slide because it wasn't said & was never the point. Yhe only thing even close to pacifism I've seen in this thread are the 2 personal stories (1 from Buttslinger & 1 from Stavros) about getting beat up & not fighting back.

[Dino Velvet]

if i can't get out of a situation well i just revert back to the old me and hope no one see's me

When your back is against the wall that might be necessary too.

[russtafa]

it's worked for me mate ,fuck some plastic gangsters have shit themselves when the cunts put me in a corner

[hippifried]

Okay Buttslinger, let's ask the Romans. Oh wait a minute, can't do that. They couldn't support their ever increasing need for violence to pretend they were in charge, & collapsed into the dust bin of history.

Such is the fate of empires. They always collapse because their conquests never stop resisting. It's all about turf. I'm glad we won our turf war, but we wouldn't have needed to fight it if the Brits hadn't gotten violent to hang onto their ill gotten gains. 50,000 ICBMS to do what?


Millions of Jews weren't murdered in the Dark Ages
Sure about that? The record's pretty thin. It's called the dark ages because of the stifling of information. It was a particularly bad time for just about everybody. I know what you're saying, but I can't find a point in the vaguery. Who got what done? Who are the sheep? Who are the herders? I'm having a hard time discerning who you would be rooting for.

Nobody's really safe.

[fred41]

[QUOTE=hippifried;1107502]From Yvonne183:

From Fred 41:

Where did this come from? Did I miss something? Maybe an invisible post in this thread somewhere? Or maybe this is just another delusional halucination from the land of memetic stereotypes. More likely scenario is that Fred was just paraphrasing Yvonne & she was just makinshitup.
/QUOTE]
It was directed at Stavros specifically...and he answered it. Perhaps if you read his answer you'll see why the question was asked.

Thanks Stavros.

[Stavros]

Perhaps the problem here is making a judgement about what one would do as a person in a threatening situation, and how states and empires behave. I cannot speak for other people, but I have become a pacifist and always look for the alternative to conflict resolution when others think a whack on the head is all that is needed. But as I am not built for fighting there is also the practical fact that in a fight with a robber I am almost certain to lose.

The thread began as an attack on so-called 'Emo' youth in Iraq, I doubt that they had the sufficient power of resistance or the support needed to spare them from the worst, maybe some of them did try to fight off their attackers; it didn't work, but I don't know the precise details of the events. Taking a life in Iraq and in other countries where violence has been endemic for so long, becomes less of an issue than it might be in others, and I find that a grim way of thinking about society in spite of Steve Pinker's claim that human societies are less violent now than they have been in history. After all, boxing and Bullfights aside, we do not crowd into a circus on a regular basis to watch gladiators kill each other, or watch men trying to wrestle lions with one inevitable result; and a film by Sly Stallone or Vin Diesel is, well, mercifully for us, just a film.

And if violence works, why are NATO troops still in Afghanistan? How long does it take, how many troops? And what do 'we' win when we 'win'?

[Prospero]

Violence working is such a debatable point. Of course it "works" in that a group of well armed men can ad will overwhelm the defenceless of ill prepared. But whether violence ever ultimately prevails is another question. Those who are conquered and ruled over by force usually and eventually reel. (Though in the case of the Australian aboriginals or the native Americans the force and domination has proved so great they are still unable to retake what was stolen from them. Probably they never well) And violence certainly nearly triumped during WW2. I think what Stavros is essentially advocating is pacifism as a defining concept - n the sense that Mahatma Gandhi intended. That can work if your region is free of territorial predators. But I am doubtful of its force in the long term.

IA parallel between confronting a mugger on the street and a death squad cornering and killing teenagers is a bit pointless. The issue of confronting a mugger is one that is almost impossible to pre-judge. if you're young fit and very strong then perhaps the mugger is going to come off worse if you stand your ground. If you're older, female or not very athletic and the mugger has a weapon then the path of least resistance is surely best. Let the robber take what he wants and go. The cowards option if you like. Losing a wallet or a watch is certainly preferable to being stabbed, shot and perhaps killed.

For my sins i once confronted a group of skinheads (maybe Russtafa was one of them - since he boasts of running with the skineheads when he lived in the UK) who were picking on a young woman at a late night bus station. I told them to leave her alone. Naive. They left her alone and then chased me half way across the city. Fortunately then i was young and fleet of foot. If they'd caught me I am sure i'd have been severely beaten. I'd certainly think twice now i'm a good bit older and certainly less fit. I've since been in many potentially or obviously dangerous situations. Always the cause of non-violence is best.

[buttslinger]

Well, Stavros, I admire you for taking a stand in the Colliseum while The Lions eat you, I admire Ghandi, and Thoreau. You could say Ghandi beat the Entire British Army, maybe, but I still say the SOCIAL "question of the jews" and the holocaust, ......that's a pretty big event to ignore, that's alot of Emos!
History IS War! At least in the books I read.

As for street fighting, a badass biker just grins when you pull a knife. I had lots of fights as a KID. Nobody ever got really hurt.
In my twenties on a drunken frozen rainy New Years AM, I found myself trying to seperate a guy's jaw from his skull like how King Kong killed T-Rex. He wasn't even resisting by then. I sobered up quick and he ran off crying.
This dude had given me some shit when I was in a real bad mood. When I ignored him, he took the glasses off my face. That was it.
But since that moment I have let guys rob me twice without resisting.

You can say abortion is murder, war is murder, executions are murder. We killed 100,000 civilians in Iraq. OOPS. Just because those deaths didn't solve anything doesn't mean they didn't mean anything. The fact that it happens is what counts, and it's been going on since history started, and it's going on now. You have to ACCOUNT for violence.
There is no security, only opportunity-McArthur.


PS Ive read some of my postings, EVEN I DON"T UNDERSTAND THEM!! ha ha. At the time they meant something ha ha.

[buttslinger]

McMurphy explains:

One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest - Fight and Fuck too Much - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qAD28X-JZmE)

[Stavros]

Well, Stavros, I admire you for taking a stand in the Colliseum while The Lions eat you, I admire Ghandi, and Thoreau. You could say Ghandi beat the Entire British Army, maybe, but I still say the SOCIAL "question of the jews" and the holocaust, ......that's a pretty big event to ignore, that's alot of Emos!
History IS War! At least in the books I read.


I don't know what to make of some your posts, Buttslinger. If you do read books then you would know that war is but one part of history, and not the main part either. Wars appear to be the main event because they are -or tend to be- dramatic events that involve a lot of people, but the last time I looked, two of the most successful countries in the world today, Germany and Japan, became the economic powerhouses that they are when war ended. Both states were ruined by war, in Germany's case, twice in 50 years; yet both have proved that it is when they don't go to war that they succeed. And in both cases, it was the victors, principally the USA, who financed the economic re-development of both countries -you might want to ask why would the USA pump so much money into the country that bombed Pearl Harbour and was infamous for the cruel way in which it treated POW's -and yet, what history proves is that making peace, and investing in people instead of killing them, pays off in the long run. This is also true at the local level, and as I have tried to argue, is part of the reason why inner city areas for decades have often become dangerous places to be in.

The economic historian Charles Issawi once wrote a paper on Iraq in which he argued that had it not been for wars and revolutions -and bad politics- Iraq today would be the Middle East equivalent of Germany. The macho culture that infects much of the Middle East plays out in grisly ways in its politics, it is not that different from the social darwinism that fooled people in 1914 into thinking the war would be another great adventure, a scrap or continental street fight lasting two weeks or a month -it lasted 4 years and was devastating. Yet this was also known as The war to end all wars, which supports Prospero's argument that one war can actually create a resentment in defeat that can cause another years later.

You can explain the holocaust in various ways, Leon Poliakov in his four-volume History of Anti-semitism tends to see it as part of an age-old problem non-Jews have with the Jewish people, and argues, as have others, that the development of the bogus science of 'Race' in the 19th century was bad news for anyone, not just Jews, who was not of what eventually became known as the Master Race. On this reading, the Holocaust become merely the climax of thousands years of violence against Jews. Vol 1 may answer your question about the slaughter of Jews in the late Roman period and the 'dark ages'. Other views tend to locate the rise in Nazi Germany in the pathology of Modernity, or in the context of Barrington Moore's complex arguments about the different routes that states have taken to reach democracy or dictatorship.

In practical terms, the Nazi's so-called solution to the invented 'Jewish problem' was to obliterate them all, but think about it and what you have is Violence as Failure. Today, in spite of the Holocaust, we still have the same old drivel from nutcases who claim the world is run by 'Jewish bankers' which inevitably means the ones we have never heard of as well as the Rothschilds. On this issue, we haven't moved an inch from the Protocols of the Elders of Zion first published in 1903.

Robert Lowell's response to the Vietnam War, in spite of its eloquence, is still to me an excess of despair: because there are always alternatives to violence, Joy really is worth more than rage; but it is too late for those young people in Iraq.

Pity the planet, all joy gone
from this sweet volcanic cone;
peace to our children when they fall
in small war on the heel of small
war--until the end of time
to police the earth, a ghost
orbiting forever lost
in our monotonous sublime

[buttslinger]

The USA came out of WWII smelling like a rose. B-29s made us a superpower. Easern Europe didn't do so well......
Before supermarkets and cable TV, war was the coolest thing there was for a young man. After flanking Union forces three times, and slaughtering them, Robert E Lee said it is good war is so terrible or we'd grow too fond of it. Sure VIOLENCE is a BUMMER, that's why killing some Emos got world wide coverage. Many wars come out of depression, famine, oppression. There's lots of things worse than violence. Like no Football on Sunday.

[hippifried]

[QUOTE=hippifried;1107502]From Yvonne183:

From Fred 41:

Where did this come from? Did I miss something? Maybe an invisible post in this thread somewhere? Or maybe this is just another delusional halucination from the land of memetic stereotypes. More likely scenario is that Fred was just paraphrasing Yvonne & she was just makinshitup.
/QUOTE]
It was directed at Stavros specifically...and he answered it. Perhaps if you read his answer you'll see why the question was asked.

Thanks Stavros.
Okay, I went back & looked again. The phrase "violence is never necessary" hasn't been used by anybody but you. It's a far cry from anything Stavros said, or anybody else for that matter (except Yvonne of course). Dino misread him too, & Stavros let it slide. Probably because the stereotypical misrepresentations come so often that one tends to ignore them & move on. I won't let it slide because it's a blatant attempt to brand people by putting words in their mouth. The story Stavros told (kid on the bicycle trying to rob him) was about his refusal to confront the kid & start the fight. There's a huge difference between that & a refusal to defend. Nobody's advocating pacifism or turning the other cheek. Somehow, I don't see the Amish hangin' out in this forum.

[buttslinger]

Theres alot of reading between the lines on the internet.

[fred41]

[quote=fred41;1107556]
Okay, I went back & looked again. The phrase "violence is never necessary" hasn't been used by anybody but you. It's a far cry from anything Stavros said, or anybody else for that matter (except Yvonne of course). Dino misread him too, & Stavros let it slide. Probably because the stereotypical misrepresentations come so often that one tends to ignore them & move on. I won't let it slide because it's a blatant attempt to brand people by putting words in their mouth. The story Stavros told (kid on the bicycle trying to rob him) was about his refusal to confront the kid & start the fight. There's a huge difference between that & a refusal to defend. Nobody's advocating pacifism or turning the other cheek. Somehow, I don't see the Amish hangin' out in this forum.
Then it was poor phrasing on my part...but I think he understood what I meant - I wasn't branding him with the statement (not intentionally, anyway). He explained it quite well...as he almost always does. Stavros is one of the most eloquent posters on here and I usually learn a lot from his posts.
I have to leave it at this point and go to work...have a few thoughts on the OP , but haven't been able to write them down.

[buttslinger]

I saw ten police officers PLANT some dude because he had the audacity to put his hand on a cop. He wasn't even related to the case, he was just a loudmouth guy who stumbled into the crime scene. The Police don't see fighting as a SPORT. They want to go home after their shift.

[Stavros]

Before supermarkets and cable TV, war was the coolest thing there was for a young man.

May I suggest that, before and after the invention of supermarkets and cable tv, the coolest thing for a young man to do was, and remains, to get laid.

[Prospero]

May I suggest that, before and after the invention of supermarkets and cable tv, the coolest thing for a young man to do was, and remains, to get laid.

You are opening a can of worms with this one Stavros. The folk on here who love guns might argue that shooting things is more fun.

There certainly always seem to have been young men who find fighting - and even killing - every bit as exciting as fucking.

[buttslinger]

Okay, all you self proclaimed Professors of All things Historical, Pop Quiz Time!
Time to see what you've learned and try your hand at PREDICTING History.
Two questions, both topics have been discussed thoroughly in the past few months.
1) Will the US or Israel attack Iran's Nuclear Sites, and, if yes, how will Iran respond?
2) How will the violence in Syria end?

[Stavros]

You are opening a can of worms with this one Stavros. The folk on here who love guns might argue that shooting things is more fun.

There certainly always seem to have been young men who find fighting - and even killing - every bit as exciting as fucking.

A fair point Prospero -but I believe it was Wilhelm Reich who argued that it was the lack of sex that explained the ease with which dictators could recruit young men to their 'exciting' causes. Sexual repression as an essential ingredient of violent autocracy...(and I assume you know Makaveyev's film)...I think there was a line in the film that went Fuck freely, comrades, its healthy!!

Maybe if more young men got laid more often, there would be fewer dead bodies...??

[buttslinger]

Maybe if more young men got laid more often, there would be fewer dead bodies...??

The frauleins in Berlin at the end of WWII might argue with that, kamarade.

[buttslinger]

I used to go out with a lot of Street Hos, they most definitely lived on the lower rung of the economic ladder. I eventually drifted towards the older wiser hos, and it took me a long long time to get used to the "chummy" relationship they had with the Police. But the Hoes could never understand why the Police wouldn't come to their aid after they were beaten or robbed. "You chose the street" they said.