Your heart tells you God exists. [Archive] - Page 2 - HungAngels

trish

03-06-2012, 08:56 PM

“Originally Posted by muh_muh I can also guarantee you that the day christians and other religions stop trying to actively limit civil liberties and impose their patently false beliefs like intelligent design on impressionable minds atheists will be a-ok with anyone worshipping whatever imaginary deity of their choosing in private

But that has nothing to do with the existence, or non-existence of God. ” __Stavros

Of course not; but then that’s not the issue muh_muh is addressing. He was responding to the claim that atheists are generally every bit the proselytizers some religionists are.

“And, as there are as many people who already believe in private -and always have- and are opposed to the same social policy proposals muh-muh objects to, it would be entirely reasonable to be 'a-ok' with their belief right now,”__Stavros

And we are. But are we to ignore the fundamentalist intrusion into our public school biology classes? Are we not to oppose those who lobby government to deny rights to gays and others based entirely on religious dogma.

“If it was 1963, would you have campaigned against Martin Luther King because of his Christian convictions?”___Stavros.

No. But the foundation for civil rights isn’t to be found in religious dogma. Simply because a dogma happens to support a rightful cause, doesn’t mean the dogma is what establishes the rightfulness of the cause. Slavery was also supported by bible thumping preachers. Dr. King’s religious convictions and faith gave him the confidence, the stamina and will to lead the movement. I would venture to say most U.S. atheists at the time supported the movement and certainly most atheists (excepting the libertarian brand) support it today.

“I am a liberal, I am for gay marriage and freedom of choice, and equality. But they are bringing up political view points like i give a flying fuck about it, that irritates me. Keep your politics to yourself... this was a discussion about spirituality. You are allowed to have a spirituality and a faith, that has nothing to do with christians impact on the laws at this point, its irrelevant...”__EvonRose

Yes, and faith without grounding justifies a lot of suffering and stands in the way of its relief. I agree that atheists who ask, “If there is a God, then why is so there much suffering in the world?” are asking the wrong question. They should be asking, “Given that there is so much suffering in the world caused by willful and mean spirited ignorance, why do so many of the worlds spiritual leaders encourage people in their ignorance?” Just the other day Pat Robinson, referring to the tornados that swept through the midwest recently, blamed the deaths and destruction on lack of prayer. Lack of prayer. How stupid is that? How unhelpful? How painful can that be to the poor families that lost their loved ones, their homes and their businesses? Pat is not the leader of a small cult. He and his network, built from the small but frequent contributions of millions of Christians, represent a significant portion Christendom.

Silcc69

03-06-2012, 09:39 PM

Trish, it's Robertson not Robinson.

Tranny Strip

03-06-2012, 09:51 PM

There is NO way on Earth I could be a Tranny Promoter without the HELP of GOD!! (You think its easy dealing with a million Trannys on a weekly basis?? Trust me there is a GOD!!)

I was given a vision by a higher being and my Angels and I ran with it!! But, I am NOTHING without the Grace and Help of God!! I will NOT forget where I came from and what I believe in and still believe in.

We are ALL GODS CHILDREN!!

AMEN to that!!!

noble1337

03-06-2012, 09:58 PM

Erika1487

03-06-2012, 10:10 PM

I am a Christian and I know God exists. I just never say it too much on this forum about my beliefs and I never say what others should believe in. But I do read many many times on this forum on others who disbelieve and hate my beliefs. So on this forum it's not Christians who are forcing their beliefs on others but a lot of posts that give harsh opinions against people who are Christians.

I am not educated on smart words or use links to Youtube people that speak boringly long winded essays on the ways of the world, I only have myself and speak about myself.
I sort of believe there is a Ying Yang sort of existence between good and evil. In my life man has been the evil part. They were the abusers when I was young. They were the rapists when I was older. They were the policemen who harassed me constantly. They were the shrinks that said I'm insane and a bit of shocks to the brain would cure me. They were the guys who beat me up cause they could. They were the people who laughed as I walked by them with blood coming out of my eyes. They were the people that never gave me a chance at a normal job.It was young men that made life miserable in school so I had to drop out. I hope it's men who have to clean the mess in my bathtub after I die.

With that there must be a good side to the Ying thing and I know it's God. I have to believe that there is a God and He is all good. I have no faith in man. He might have science and other wonderful play things but he is by nature evil.
I have sinned in my life and I know that. I'd like to blame men but I do own up and blame myself. I do hope that God forgives me when I die. I have to believe in God,, I pray to get out of hell and go to a better place when I die.

Amen sister! Yvonne I commend you for being open about your beliefs:) I am a christian also, and grew up in a very strict conservative Holiness movement home. I am a a frim believer, in god, but I have to be honest, my treatment by 'christan friends' has been pretty ruff since I come out, and even worse when I had all of me legal documents changed. I have felt abandoned by my former church, but I have faith, that the Lord portects me and my family.

Nicole Dupre

03-06-2012, 10:17 PM

I knew we could work the TS Strip Events into this thread somehow. In fact, all threads go better with the Tranny Strip Club. lol

traLika

03-06-2012, 10:33 PM

You are like them, missed the point...

I am discussing about the facts of religion and putting my own theories behind it trying to explain it. These atheists are the ones bringing political arguments behind it. I am a liberal, I am for gay marriage and freedom of choice, and equality. But they are bringing up political view points like i give a flying fuck about it, that irritates me. Keep your politics to yourself... this was a discussion about spirituality. You are allowed to have a spirituality and a faith, that has nothing to do with christians impact on the laws at this point, its irrelevant...

Nicole Dupree and I started to discuss why or possible ways people use spirituality to describe unexplained physical objects, but here comes trish and muh muh, talking about gay marriage, and churches, and inequality, abortion etc.... Boring not interesting at all... I see where they are coming from however there will always be social injustice religion or not, just freshen up your history books. From china, to japan, to England, to the South Pacific.

I don't think I missed the point at all. The OP started this thread with three YouTube videos including ones titled Does God Have A Future? and Does God Exist?

I'd say the posts from Trish and muh_muh have been very relevant to the material discussed in those videos.

Whether we like it or not there are religiously motivated politicians in high places who want to interfere with the lives of complete strangers who need an abortion (a woman who's been raped and becomes pregnant) or are gay and want to marry. That has to be talked about in a thread that discusses whether God has a future.

Talking about that stuff is not even being political: it's simply expressing a concern about the potential erosion of basic human rights in what is otherwise supposed to be an advanced civilised society. If you get irritated by them talking about that important stuff then that's too bad. Some of the nonsensical stuff you said earlier in the thread about athiests also irritated the crap out of me. But who cares? That's just the way things go - it's the internet! lol

EvonRose

03-06-2012, 10:41 PM

Yes, and faith without grounding justifies a lot of suffering and stands in the way of its relief. I agree that atheists who ask, “If there is a God, then why is so there much suffering in the world?” are asking the wrong question. They should be asking, “Given that there is so much suffering in the world caused by willful and mean spirited ignorance, why do so many of the worlds spiritual leaders encourage people in their ignorance?” Just the other day Pat Robinson, referring to the tornados that swept through the midwest recently, blamed the deaths and destruction on lack of prayer. Lack of prayer. How stupid is that? How unhelpful? How painful can that be to the poor families that lost their loved ones, their homes and their businesses? Pat is not the leader of a small cult. He and his network, built from the small but frequent contributions of millions of Christians, represent a significant portion Christendom.[/QUOTE]

Well at least You agree with me with the question, however you and muh muh are confusing spirituality with organized religion. I never wanted to discuss about the impact on some religion on our government, there will always be a scapegoat religion or not, even without religion if you go around the world there are racism, homophobia, sexism in countries that practice predominantly atheistic, because humans can be egoistical. Many christians have the spirituality and faith but do not attend organized christian branches.

EvonRose

03-06-2012, 10:58 PM

I don't think I missed the point at all. The OP started this thread with three YouTube videos including ones titled Does God Have A Future? and Does God Exist?

I'd say the posts from Trish and muh_muh have been very relevant to the material discussed in those videos.

Whether we like it or not there are religiously motivated politicians in high places who want to interfere with the lives of complete strangers who need an abortion (a woman who's been raped and becomes pregnant) or are gay and want to marry. That has to be talked about in a thread that discusses whether God has a future.

Talking about that stuff is not even being political: it's simply expressing a concern about the potential erosion of basic human rights in what is otherwise supposed to be an advanced civilised society. If you get irritated by them talking about that important stuff then that's too bad. Some of the nonsensical stuff you said earlier in the thread about athiests also irritated the crap out of me. But who cares? That's just the way things go - it's the internet! lol

What have i said to irritate any party? I have protected both sides, however I see in this circumstance an unjust view of the faith. I would say the same to christians if an atheist was attacked. Yvonn poured her human feelings out, and finds comfort in the faith yet people are so disrespectful they don't think twice trying to prove her only rock in her life wrong, how do you think you would feel? But when a a religious group pickets an atheist funeral all hell breaks with them. but it's the same thing only difference is this girl is still trying to find comfort while the other is at peace.

Everything that they said was political, are you kidding me?
They want exactly what the christians want in a different sense, they fight to legalize gay marriage everywhere, and some religious groups fight to ban it everywhere. That's never gonna happen! There has to be balance they both force everyone to believe what they believe. They use religion as an excuse to everything unjust, as the christians excuse lack of belief to disasters, But I'm not christian and I don't support it abortion. I am not atheist but I support gay marriage. Politics and religion should be separate but neither once separates... in this case predominantly atheistic group do just that, but I don't think you or they will ever see that.

By using christian society as one to be the cause of unjust social law can lead to unjust prosecution in the future of the innocent... People need to analyze it in all aspects rather than coming to a conclusion.

God does and always will have a future, not everyone is going to go atheist. And not everyone is going to join an organization.

Legalizing marriage in all states is not a good idea, and banning it in all states is not good either. There needs to be a division.

muh_muh

03-07-2012, 12:04 AM

One question to the believers in here. How many of you practice the faith of your parents without ever having reflected it or looked into other faiths enough to make a genuine judgement about which faith is best for you?

But that has nothing to do with the existence, or non-existence of God.

To a certain extent it has. Unless it is conclusively proven that god exists and that the rules contained in leviticus are god's that kind of reasoning and the law proposals that spring from that have absolutely no place in the public space.

And, as there are as many people who already believe in private -and always have- and are opposed to the same social policy proposals muh-muh objects to, it would be entirely reasonable to be 'a-ok' with their belief right now

Well clearly there aren't enough of those.
California Proposition 8 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Proposition_8)

If it was 1963, would you have campaigned against Martin Luther King because of his Christian convictions?

Wait what? What bottom did you pull that logic from? I can't claim to be completely familiar with everything King campained for but I cannot find anything in the issues I do know that would require christian faith to be considered just. I can see how they could stem from christian ethics but they all are universally just in a vacuum of faith.

you have to believe the scientifically proven events int he bible..

Of course I do. The fundamental difference there is that on the one side you have historical facts backed up by a sufficent number of independant sources to make the as true as anything in archeology can ever be and on the other hand you have people believing things that have absolutely no footing in reality or flatly contradict other often times later passages in a book that supposedly contains the absolute truth, despite demonstrably contradicting itself with a regularity that it could only be described as intentional.

In my opinion there is a possibility that the god in the bible was a way to describe mother nature.

If that is your belief then it immediatelly follows that the god in the bible ic entirely explainable through the scientific method.
Again please look up the "god of the gaps".

Nicole Dupree and I started to discuss why or possible ways people use spirituality to describe unexplained physical objects

Again god of the gaps. There is a very good reason why no one believes in Thor anymore.

i don't think racism is religious based, or anti semitism, or sexism, or homophobia, people want to believe that is is but the conclusion i have made is its not,. going back to the nazi history, or even asian politics it is present in every background...

No i don't suppose either that many of these things have their origin in religion but the reality of today is that you have relgious groups acitvely campaigning for these obvious injustices.

Lack of prayer. How stupid is that? How unhelpful?

Not to mention that prayer has been shown to have adverse effects.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16569567

if you go around the world there are racism, homophobia, sexism in countries that practice predominantly atheistic

Examples?

Legalizing marriage in all states is not a good idea, and banning it in all states is not good either. There needs to be a division.

Why?

traLika

03-07-2012, 12:10 AM

What have i said to irritate any party? I have protected both sides, however I see in this circumstance an unjust view of the faith. I would say the same to christians if an atheist was attacked. Yvonn poured her human feelings out, and finds comfort in the faith yet people are so disrespectful they don't think twice trying to prove her only rock in her life wrong, how do you think you would feel? But when a a religious group pickets an atheist funeral all hell breaks with them. but it's the same thing only difference is this girl is still trying to find comfort while the other is at peace.

Everything that they said was political, are you kidding me?
They want exactly what the christians want in a different sense, they fight to legalize gay marriage everywhere, and some religious groups fight to ban it everywhere. That's never gonna happen! There has to be balance they both force everyone to believe what they believe. They use religion as an excuse to everything unjust, as the christians excuse lack of belief to disasters, But I'm not christian and I don't support it abortion. I am not atheist but I support gay marriage. Politics and religion should be separate but neither once separates... in this case predominantly atheistic group do just that, but I don't think you or they will ever see that.

By using christian society as one to be the cause of unjust social law can lead to unjust prosecution in the future of the innocent... People need to analyze it in all aspects rather than coming to a conclusion.

God does and always will have a future, not everyone is going to go atheist. And not everyone is going to join an organization.

Legalizing marriage in all states is not a good idea, and banning it in all states is not good either. There needs to be a division.

Wow, you take things kinda personal, dontcha. ;) Loads of people irritate loads of other people online. So you're saying that Trish and muh_muh are allowed to irritate you but you can't irritate anyone else? Get real. lol

I don't think I remember anyone being disrespectful to Yvonne on this thread (although I may have missed some comments one or two individuals have made) and if they had I'd be the first to criticise them for it. I have a lot of respect for Yvonne. All I've seen is people talking about what they think about religion on a thread about what people think about religion.

Regarding politics - I simply meant talking about erosion of human rights not being political in a left vs right sense. I guess I could have chosen a different word to political…

So… Ya wanna know what irritated me? Your attitude can be elitist sometimes: you say that others should be more broad minded and yet your opinions are clearly as blinkered as anyone else's around here. But that's cool. We're all human. I've got some annoying habits too… :)

EvonRose

03-07-2012, 12:33 AM

Without the bible, there would have been no explanation to how these things came to be. The bible explains the history behind these findings. The religion, teachings everything in the bible was a reality! your not comprehending! You do not know what the source was, you were not there! You have no idea what had gone down during those times. If you lived back in those times and and an astroid fell and burned your city, what the hell would you think? you do not have the education right now to explain it, so people then would explain it with stories. But that doe snot make it untrue.

Everything is explainable, there is always a source. Sometimes its not what we think, sometimes we need to keep an open mind to see what it was they were trying to describe.

Thor was a story,a god to describe thunder,and lighting, they did not have the scientific technology to know what causes it. They were trying describe a force unseen or unexplained.

are all muslims terrorist? just because a small group is that way why should you socially prosecute the others?

Your an educated person, you should know a few examples, it's hard for me to believe you are this uneducated. I will give you a few minutes... comment back if you really want me to give an example...

Why? because its unfair for everyone that lives in your society to abide by your beliefs, if you believe in gay marriage not everyone should. Nor should they allow it in their community if they do not want to, if you don't like the law of the land move somewhere it fits you. Or better yet, become the president legalize gay marriage in all 51 states, and see if you won't stir any chaos or mad religious group breaking and burning things down... It's not that easy.

EvonRose

03-07-2012, 12:53 AM

Tell me what I said that would potentially irritate them? I never said they were wrong for being atheist or that they were delusional or crazy unlike them who said that about a few believers on here... I was just voicing out the facts behind something they don't understand. I am irritated about the things they hate about religious groups yet they do the same exact things. How can that not irritate someone? I am neither part of the religion or atheist, so how on earth can i potentially irritate someone with a neutral mind.

I never said anyone "should" be broad minded, i am saying to understand the point of one another to leave a subject alone when its something that can never be fixed, its been that way for hundreds of years! What opinions of mine seemed blinkered? I Have kept a neutral point on both sides. I'm dying to hear a few examples...

trish

03-07-2012, 01:58 AM

its unfair for everyone that lives in your society to abide by your beliefs, if you believe in gay marriage not everyone should. Nor should they allow it in their community if they do not want to, if you don't like the law of the land move somewhere it fits you. Really?? You really want to go with that? So slavery was perfectly okay until society of slave-owners and non-slaves started changing their minds? It’s perfectly fine to deny people of a given race the civil rights enjoy by those not of that race? If they don’t like it, they can move somewhere else?! That’s pretty fucked up! And you claim to have an open, enlightened mind!!! Look people don’t have to believe in gay marriage. People don’t have to believe that it’s wrong to own a human being. People can believe whatever nonsense they please. But the law should recognize that slavery is an abomination and that legal marriage is a civil right open to all citizens.

...move somewhere it fits you. Or better yet, become the president legalize gay marriage in all 51 states, and see if you won't stir any chaos or mad religious group breaking and burning things down... It's not that easy. No, it isn’t easy. Why? Because too many people act on ungrounded faith and mean-spirited, willful ignorance. I’ve got nothing against spirituality. People can be as spiritual as they desire. But ungrounded faith is just an excuse for stupidity.

Thor was a story,a god to describe thunder,and lighting, they did not have the scientific technology to know what causes it. They were trying describe a force unseen or unexplained. And Thor was the wrong explanation, and also a piss poor description of the phenomena. It’s understandable that people who have grown up in the prehistoric Norse tradition might have believed in Thor. But it was still a silly thing to believe in, then and even more so now. So it goes with all the gods humans have invented so far. Would it be okay if we were still believers in Thor today, and started wars in his name so our dead soldiers might enjoy the pleasures of Valhalla?

trish

03-07-2012, 02:19 AM

Hi Silcc. Thanks for the correction.

Though he began as a Southern Baptist and may still be one, Pat Robertson is a non-denominational phenomenon. He is not an example of organized religion. He is an example of grass roots fundamentalism. Baptists send him money, methodists send him money, evangelicals send him money, every kind of protestant has been hoodwinked into sending Pat their money.

There are a lot of non-denominational churches in the U.S. these days. Huge complexes that are recreation centers and community centers as much as they are places of worship. On a local scale they are huge; but on the national scale they are part of no particular denomination or franchise. But many of them (not all) shelter white supremacists, breed hatred of gays and of course hatred of ladies like us. Organized or not, it makes no difference.

EvonRose

03-07-2012, 02:37 AM

Okay, trish. Where the hell did I say that it was okay to deny any civil liberties to humans? if your taking this on a religious stance there is no where in the bible to support hate and violence towards color, as a matter of fact there is no where to support hate and violence to fellow neighbors. It is one thing to limit marriage law, and another to enslave and own gay people. These slaves were brutally beaten, starved, picked on, and oppressed. The gays are given at the moment a choice to marry, 6 states hopefully more in the future. You are given the opportunity that these people were not. Now tell me, in what way do you feel oppressed? How is the government unfair to you? What has the government done to stop you from reaching your goals? Tell me seriously I want to know...

Well if that's that you believe girly, anyone that knows you label yourself as atheists would recognize there is no point trying to make you believe it otherwise, what you fail to see and what i am trying to point out is your belief or in this case disbelief. If I'm closed minded then your minds are bolted locked then, What people fail to do is attack a source, instead of trying to peel the top layer. if someone claimed to have seen a ghost, you assume she's crazy. So if your child said that to you, you'd assume they're crazy and that's your final conclusion, or are you going to investigate? And you find out the ghost that your child was seeing was an actual person hiding in the closet?

I believe the stories in the bible were key to explain something, someone or an event that took place in that history, these history made an impact on their cultural and governmental law, and many people found peace living this way. I do know what atheist stand for, I stand for the same things, however! what I do not support is the way atheists force their disbelief in my throat as goes for the organized religious groups... To me, in my opinion it's to closed of for my liking as someone who enjoy learning and asking questions...

Look what is happening now, I see more positive unveiling than negative, I understand the want for a quick fix like all americans do. However I think the changes that has been made these past couple years are so good... We can never eliminate social injustice, we can never pressure people to believe the same things. This is a fact.

EvonRose

03-07-2012, 02:39 AM

trish

03-07-2012, 03:17 AM

EvonRose

03-07-2012, 03:29 AM

Looks like we have a different idea of what a civil rights are, because I quoted whatI regarded as your denial of them. I suppose you just don't believe that gay marriage is a civil right; I.e you,re an "atheist" onthe issue, as it were.

By the way my post wasn't an attack on the Bible and consequently your defense of the Bible, though passionate, falls wide of the mark. You claimed to be talking about spirituality and faith. My post demonstrated ungrounded faith is bad epistemology and dangerous to people's health, rights and freedom. You have not rebutted that claim.

I am clearly aware what civil rights is, but realistically it would be better to have this issue separate, as religion should be separate from politics, in this case I believe there has to be a division, of some states allowing them and some not. We as a community can still live as one but can choose where to reside or build a life in terms of politics stand views. There is just no way its healthy for every state to have the same regulations...

You throw the words faith, spirituality, religion into one, and previous post suggest people with these faith are the cause for the social injustices. Faith is not the organized religion, having christen faith hold true to the meaning of the bible, the organized religion is how they choose to understand and practice it.

I hope that made sense.

trish

03-07-2012, 04:05 AM

You throw the words faith, spirituality, religion into oneNo, I don't and if you check the post you'll find I explicitly aimed my criticism at faith and explicitly exempted spirituality.
You suggest organized religion is the specific danger to society; I argue ungrounded faith (organized or not) is dangerous simply because faith is a poor guarantor of truth, and standing steadfast behind false beliefs can seriously undermine the rights and happiness of others.

fred41

03-07-2012, 05:28 AM

LOL..if I had to rate this debate so far on points...well let's just say it's incredibly one sided.

EvonRose

03-07-2012, 05:31 AM

No, I don't and if you check the post you'll find I explicitly aimed my criticism at faith and explicitly exempted spirituality.
You suggest organized religion is the specific danger to society; I argue ungrounded faith (organized or not) is dangerous simply because faith is a poor guarantor of truth, and standing steadfast behind false beliefs can seriously undermine the rights and happiness of others.

I disagree, faith had taught many believers that life has meaning and purpose and one soul is precious therefore to have respect for life. Without it people were just barbarians back then. no respect for life, survival of the fitess. You are not all knowing to say its false belief, Like I said history has its share of religious prosecution its not just the organized religion who has done it! All around the world! Cant carry that chip on your shoulder and blame all the injustice on all who choose to have faith.

trish

03-07-2012, 05:46 AM

EvonRose

03-07-2012, 06:36 AM

I'm not blaming all injustice on faith; far from it. There are a thousand and one causes and motivations behind the world's injustice. Ungrounded faith in false premises all too often numbers among those causes and motivations. You can't know when your faith has been put into a false and hurtful belief. That is why it is good practice to at least try to test the veracity of one's beliefs with reason and observation.

No, organized religion is used as a tool for injustice only in the western countries, in asia social injustice has got nothing to do with religion. Many atheistic asian countries have used money, and power and leadership as a tool for social injustice, you only know about western organized religion because you live here, that's not the case everywhere else...

trish

03-07-2012, 07:26 AM

Once again, I'm not blaming all injustice on ungrounded faith in false beliefs. Indeed, I recognize many causes and motivations for injustice...sometimes including...yes...religion of the unorganized variety. And yes, non-belief is no guard against injustice. Even well intentioned actions based on the best evidence and the best reason will sometimes result in injustice. I'm simply saying well intentioned actions based on reason and evidence will have a better record than well intentioned actions based on faith without grounding in reason and evidence. I think that's just obvious. I really don't know from whence comes all the resistance. Of course faith with reason and evidence is no longer called faith, it's simply the best set of conclusions that can be currently drawn from reason and evidence. Which (to come full circle) is why Dawkins admitted he wasn't 100% certain of the non-existence of gods.

To part friends, and since my posts have come full circle, I'll make this my last post in this particular thread. Good night Evon and anyone else still up and reading. You're a lovely person and I enjoyed exploring this topic with you and all the others who were engaged by the conversation.

martin48

03-07-2012, 08:10 AM

That's it did? Shame - it was just getting to enjoy the circular arguments. I'm sure you are both lovely

robertlouis

03-07-2012, 08:20 AM

That's it did? Shame - it was just getting to enjoy the circular arguments. I'm sure you are both lovely

Me too. I have a problem with the notion of "faith" in its religious context, as it requires an unquestionable and unshakeable belief in something for which there is no empirical evidence. Human beings have evolved to a large extent and created the complex technology-driven world we live in because they have the innate ability to question and challenge.

On the other hand, there's Ganesh, the Hindu god of hospitality and joy. He's also an elephant, and the representations of him are beautiful. How cool to worship an elephant god.....

muh_muh

03-07-2012, 08:55 AM

But that doe snot make it untrue.

Yes it does, cf. trish's post.

Why? because its unfair for everyone that lives in your society to abide by your beliefs, if you believe in gay marriage not everyone should. Nor should they allow it in their community if they do not want to, if you don't like the law of the land move somewhere it fits you. Or better yet, become the president legalize gay marriage in all 51 states, and see if you won't stir any chaos or mad religious group breaking and burning things down... It's not that easy.

OK this is getting silly; and retarded to be perfectly honest.
First of all everything that trish said, secondly every democracy worth having has an equality clause somewhere in its constitution. With the US (I'm not terribly familiar with your bloody constitution so it took me a while to find it) it appears to be the 14th amendment.
"No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States"
In other words any laws resticting marriage to a certain demographic are illegal under the constitution.

traLika

03-07-2012, 09:08 AM

Aaaaaggggggh, I've just woken up and the debate goes on...

Evon, I don't hate you. Regarding your earlier request, I'm not gonna bring out a bunch of minor points that would end up with us going around in circles just like you did with Trish. Internet forums are full of opinionated so-and-sos who sometimes get on each other's nerves. That's the way of the world. You'll just have to take what I said on faith. Oops, what have I just said… :hide-1:

yodajazz

03-07-2012, 09:28 AM

Me too. I have a problem with the notion of "faith" in its religious context, as it requires an unquestionable and unshakeable belief in something for which there is no empirical evidence. Human beings have evolved to a large extent and created the complex technology-driven world we live in because they have the innate ability to question and challenge.

On the other hand, there's Ganesh, the Hindu god of hospitality and joy. He's also an elephant, and the representations of him are beautiful. How cool to worship an elephant god.....

I think that the unprovable elements of a religion, are proven by the concrete results of the behavior of the followers, within their own communities. I believe, by observation that people treat others with kindness, generousity, and so forth. Also within each community you have people testifying how their faith has help them through trying times. Thus the unprovable tenets are, justified by concrete, behaviors in the followers.

Tha major issues seem to come about, in how the religious community treat outsiders; those that do not share their core beliefs. If one examines the cause of major issues of conflict, from those communities against others, its more about power and control from leadership, than anything else. If you look at the actions of some religious leaders urge of their followers, you will find them to be in direct opposition, to teachings they are supposed to follow. Islam is a prime example. The Prophet stated that one should not hurt, non-combatants, such as women, children and the elderly. This would clearly rule out the tactic of suicde bombings in public places. (Even though there is probably a story of some exception, in the Hadith. In such a case, it should clearly be understood the case would be an exception, when the rule is stated clearly.)

yosi

03-07-2012, 12:19 PM

Thor was a story,a god to describe thunder,and lighting, they did not have the scientific technology to know what causes it. They were trying describe a force unseen or unexplained.
.

Thor was real for his believers back in those days , god is real for you these days, that's the only difference.

the earth is flat , the earth is the center of the universe , the sun goes in circles around earth , these were the "proven sceintific facts" by the christian church.....until proven otherwise by an atheist .

buttslinger

03-07-2012, 01:00 PM

When I worked in the Library of Congress, I'd do some "boy" with the brothers and then wander back into the stacks to get rapt up in the big old Eastern Religious Art books. Pure Treasure.
I'm still hunting for the "dewdrop on the sea" pic from the back album cover of Dave Mason is Alive!

EvonRose

03-07-2012, 04:19 PM

Dude, BIG fail, i asked you of you were those people living in those days how else can you explain a phenomena that couldn't with the lack of knowledge back then? Just because Thor was not what you think, the source was still a fact.

It's not illegal in the united states! there are options to get married here...

Lixio

03-07-2012, 04:20 PM

How do i post a new thread? xx

EvonRose

03-07-2012, 04:31 PM

Thor was real for his believers back in those days , god is real for you these days, that's the only difference.

the earth is flat , the earth is the center of the universe , the sun goes in circles around earth , these were the "proven sceintific facts" by the christian church.....until proven otherwise by an atheist .

Yes, I agree...

But it was the scientists who said the giant squid was a myth and it never existed of the lack of proof... till a body washed up int he modern days.

But for centuries it had gone unseen, only told in stories, as a krakan or sea creature. Science said it was just a stupid story. Science is not perfect, neither, are theists, or atheists. I want to take facts from all points of view and connect it. Thats who I am.

russtafa

03-07-2012, 05:03 PM

Yes, I agree...

But it was the scientists who said the giant squid was a myth and it never existed of the lack of proof... till a body washed up int he modern days.

But for centuries it had gone unseen, only told in stories, as a krakan or sea creature. Science said it was just a stupid story. Science is not perfect, neither, are theists, or atheists. I want to take facts from all points of view and connect it. Thats who I am.good for you but you know you are talking people that are block heads most are socialist who follow the party line i.e god does not exist or permitted =Russia ,China and you will get sent to a re education camp.Trish and her followers would love this idea

EvonRose

03-07-2012, 05:20 PM

good for you but you know you are talking people that are block heads most are socialist who follow the party line i.e god does not exist or permitted =Russia ,China and you will get sent to a re education camp.Trish and her followers would love this idea

Well, if they fight for human rights, this should never be in their thought of agendas, if it is, then they are as bad as the religious group here. But that was the point I was trying to make, this kind if social injustice happens to religious groups prosecuted by atheistic groups, but that does not mean all atheists want to prosecute people of religions or in this case extreme.

noble1337

03-07-2012, 05:34 PM

Yes, I agree...

But it was the scientists who said the giant squid was a myth and it never existed of the lack of proof... till a body washed up int he modern days.

But for centuries it had gone unseen, only told in stories, as a krakan or sea creature. Science said it was just a stupid story. Science is not perfect, neither, are theists, or atheists. I want to take facts from all points of view and connect it. Thats who I am.

if there was no evidence it existed, would you really want our scientists to believe in any story they hear?

im failing to see why they were out of line for not officially stating a giant squid was real without any evidence. science doesnt state things it doesnt know, and admits what it hasnt proven~

EvonRose

03-07-2012, 06:18 PM

if there was no evidence it existed, would you really want our scientists to believe in any story they hear?

im failing to see why they were out of line for not officially stating a giant squid was real without any evidence. science doesnt state things it doesnt know, and admits what it hasnt proven~

Science is always open to the possibility, that's a different mindset atheists are on. There is a possibility of the supernatural something that science at this point can't all prove. But just because something can't be proven for now does not mean it can't exist. This is my argument about faith.

Giant squid was an example, because people who claimed to have seen it were labeled crazy, or delusional. People who claim to experience even see supernatural are labeled the same way sometimes. Turns out giant squiddy actually exists! ( I named her princess). So what evidence does it prove that the supernatural does not exist, the only thing it proves at this point is it can't be proven. But that does not mean it doesn't exist.

noble1337

03-07-2012, 06:41 PM

Science is always open to the possibility, that's a different mindset atheists are on. There is a possibility of the supernatural something that science at this point can't all prove. But just because something can't be proven for now does not mean it can't exist. This is my argument about faith.

Giant squid was an example, because people who claimed to have seen it were labeled crazy, or delusional. People who claim to experience even see supernatural are labeled the same way sometimes. Turns out giant squiddy actually exists! ( I named her princess). So what evidence does it prove that the supernatural does not exist, the only thing it proves at this point is it can't be proven. But that does not mean it doesn't exist.

well first off, its very rare to find an atheist who thinks there is a 0.00% chance that there is nothing supernatural.

but the thing is, faith of religion has just as much evidence backing it up as a man saying that there are millions of dragon ghosts roaming the earth.

this is why i dont really like calling myself an atheist too much. i feel like i shouldnt be in a group at all. 'atheist' is only a label of something that isnt anything. religions are making the wild claims, not atheists. atheists are the ones asking for proof, not the other way around.

so you can say "you cant prove its wrong, so youll never know". but then that leaves you with the fact that you cant prove that its right. in fact, theres 0 evidence of it. so believing in something with absolutely no evidence is completely illogical.

martin48

03-07-2012, 07:46 PM

EvonRose

03-07-2012, 07:53 PM

well first off, its very rare to find an atheist who thinks there is a 0.00% chance that there is nothing supernatural.

but the thing is, faith of religion has just as much evidence backing it up as a man saying that there are millions of dragon ghosts roaming the earth.

this is why i dont really like calling myself an atheist too much. i feel like i shouldnt be in a group at all. 'atheist' is only a label of something that isnt anything. religions are making the wild claims, not atheists. atheists are the ones asking for proof, not the other way around.

so you can say "you cant prove its wrong, so youll never know". but then that leaves you with the fact that you cant prove that its right. in fact, theres 0 evidence of it. so believing in something with absolutely no evidence is completely illogical.

Faith has many to do with the supernatural, so if your saying an atheists believes theres a possibility they are then not really atheists, agnostic maybe.

There have been dragons before, dinosaurs were described as dinosaurs in many historical events just because its not dragonheart don't mean it did not exist within it's basic structure.

Atheist are asking for proof, and because the proof cannot be physically explained they wipe out the possibility of it's existence. I on the other hand also want proof but just because it can't be proven now, doesn't mean it will never be.

0 evidence still doesn't mean 0 existence.... We like to think were advanced, more advanced yes, but we only discovered portion of the land here on earth that consists 25 percent of the earth, 75 percent of water that we only know very little about, how about outer space? We are not all knowing not everything is based on facts... Facts are great! it finds answers, but sometimes we can't find the answer to everything even if it does exist. That's life.

EvonRose

03-07-2012, 07:59 PM

At the end of the day (hopefully today!) just because religions help to create "nice" societies and behavior or help to create "nasty" ones, it does not MAKE a deity exist. Is it necessary to explain our understanding of the universe to demand the existence of a deity? I think not - others different. But it is on on the basis of evidence that they believe him/her to exist but faith.

Again you do not know that because you do not know the form the deity has... many people think moth nature is a deity, the very world we live on is a force that controls its population, designed herself to create the world we live on to produce so we can live, located herself in the solar system so we can get sunlight. Questions are for debate when it comes to this, because even if you don't believe some still wonder that it is a phenomenon on its own... And many of it still cannot be explained to this very day even tough we are living proof that it does exist.

FYI im not saying that mother earth is god, i just read a book...

muh_muh

03-07-2012, 09:50 PM

EvonRose

03-07-2012, 10:08 PM

OK I give up this is taking up way too much of my time and there really is very little point in trying to argue with someone who starts off talking about how amazing morality is only to then consider inequalities to be perfeclty fine.

That made absolutely no sense! You should give up... because i never said it was amazing and that everyone had or should have the same morals.

What you don't believe in reading either? I clearly stated " I support gay marriage" I also said " I don't support inequality". Morality has got nothing to do with organized religion changing politics. Get a grip.

If I think social injustice will never be avoided, I'm being realistic. I have only said my opinions on separating religious and political differences. I am allowed to voice my opinion.

We were having a discussion but i will not have you refer to me as someone who supports inequalities. Such a childish way to try to get your belief on a standpoint, your just as bad as these organized religions!

buttslinger

03-07-2012, 10:09 PM

I heard about an English Society Club that spends their quality time debating which passages in the Bible are actually the words of Jesus and which passages are bogus heresay. Everyone agrees the "Give unto Caesar" retort is Classic Jesus.

martin48

03-07-2012, 11:26 PM

Again you do not know that because you do not know the form the deity has... many people think moth nature is a deity, the very world we live on is a force that controls its population, designed herself to create the world we live on to produce so we can live, located herself in the solar system so we can get sunlight. Questions are for debate when it comes to this, because even if you don't believe some still wonder that it is a phenomenon on its own... And many of it still cannot be explained to this very day even tough we are living proof that it does exist.

FYI im not saying that mother earth is god, i just read a book...

Just keep reading - please

noble1337

03-07-2012, 11:31 PM

Faith has many to do with the supernatural, so if your saying an atheists believes theres a possibility they are then not really atheists, agnostic maybe.

There have been dragons before, dinosaurs were described as dinosaurs in many historical events just because its not dragonheart don't mean it did not exist within it's basic structure.

Atheist are asking for proof, and because the proof cannot be physically explained they wipe out the possibility of it's existence. I on the other hand also want proof but just because it can't be proven now, doesn't mean it will never be.

0 evidence still doesn't mean 0 existence.... We like to think were advanced, more advanced yes, but we only discovered portion of the land here on earth that consists 25 percent of the earth, 75 percent of water that we only know very little about, how about outer space? We are not all knowing not everything is based on facts... Facts are great! it finds answers, but sometimes we can't find the answer to everything even if it does exist. That's life.

atheists share agnostic and anti-theist views. again, as i said before, an atheist isnt claiming anything.

and just because we dont have proof of everything, doesnt mean we should make things up without proof and then believe in it to fill the void. you keep bringing up the point that 'we dont know for sure, so its okay to believe in it.' but you havent said why thats not illogical.
haha and i cant believe you defended the dragon comment. would you like me to use an example of 'ghost unicorns with human faces all looking exactly like yours'? i think youre missing the point. if someone wrote that those ghost unicorns take you away to heaven if you murder 5 children before you die, then theres no more reason to pray to the christian god then murder kids. see what im getting at? theres no proof, so its stupid to believe in it like its true (am i getting trolled?)

EvonRose

03-08-2012, 12:51 AM

Just keep reading - please

Well start....

EvonRose

03-08-2012, 01:21 AM

atheists share agnostic and anti-theist views. again, as i said before, an atheist isnt claiming anything.

and just because we dont have proof of everything, doesnt mean we should make things up without proof and then believe in it to fill the void. you keep bringing up the point that 'we dont know for sure, so its okay to believe in it.' but you havent said why thats not illogical.
haha and i cant believe you defended the dragon comment. would you like me to use an example of 'ghost unicorns with human faces all looking exactly like yours'? i think youre missing the point. if someone wrote that those ghost unicorns take you away to heaven if you murder 5 children before you die, then theres no more reason to pray to the christian god then murder kids. see what im getting at? theres no proof, so its stupid to believe in it like its true (am i getting trolled?)

I never said they claimed anything.

How do you know events or characters were made up?

It's okay to be skeptical, naturally we as humans are, however when someone says they believe in one thing and you say It does not exist. You eliminate any possibility. That's what I don't find logical, yet people claim to be realists.

The protestants who do run the governments is not a clear representation to the other branches out there.

I was stating that the early teachings of christianity has been a strong foundation by the teaching of their deity. From those teachings 13 different branches spread out and the way some of them teaches or interpret the bible I consider wrong or far off front he original teachings, however people do not see the branches who do stay out of the arguments, or the social injustices... but it is wrong to judge them as one, just as atheism like you said not all atheist are alike... Some atheists are buddhist ( personally does not make sense) since majority of Buddhist branches believe in reincarnation, karma, Nirvana, worship in chief and belief in cosmic supernatural forces. But then christians are delusional because they believe in a god that can hep them in the afterlife by doing good on earth? Same principals, yet these atheists believe in reincarnation but they don't believe in a heaven or hell and claim theres no proof so it does not exist, well what proof does reincarnation have? You need to have a spirit or a soul to reach reincarnation, spirits/ soul... something atheist don't believe in (afterlife) Yet some practice Buddhism... now do you see those atheists who do not believe in anything but facts say anything to buddhist atheists? No I personally only see it as an attack towards all christian denomination for the injustice of society, I find this unhealthy.

Btw if i reincarnate to the next life I want to be a princess, born with a pussy... Please do not make me a tranny again!

martin48

03-08-2012, 01:52 AM

I never said they claimed anything.

Btw if i reincarnate to the next life I want to be a princess, born with a pussy... Please do not make me a tranny again!

Understand :kiss:

Reincarnation is making a come back :)

I think we all should have two lives - but you remember the first so you can correct the mistakes.

EvonRose

03-08-2012, 02:16 AM

Understand :kiss:

Reincarnation is making a come back :)

I think we all should have two lives - but you remember the first so you can correct the mistakes.

I think the idea is so cool tough don't you think?

yosi

03-08-2012, 02:18 AM

Yes, I agree...

But it was the scientists who said the giant squid was a myth and it never existed of the lack of proof... till a body washed up int he modern days.

But for centuries it had gone unseen, only told in stories, as a krakan or sea creature. Science said it was just a stupid story. Science is not perfect, neither, are theists, or atheists. I want to take facts from all points of view and connect it. Thats who I am.

science is not perfect , I agree , gravity existed before a certain apple landed on a certain head.

I prefer a non-perfect science over a competition which god of which religion is more perfect , if poeple were busy finding answers which only result new questions about new things which we didn't know that we don't know yet , instead of fighting whos god is better , our world will be a better place.

it's not the atheists who use god as an excuse to justify all the wars and the racism they create using his name ...........

EvonRose

03-08-2012, 02:25 AM

science is not perfect , I agree , gravity existed before a certain apple landed on a certain head.

I prefer a non-perfect science over a competition which god of which religion is more perfect , if poeple were busy finding answers which only result new questions about new things which we didn't know that we don't know yet , instead of fighting whos god is better , our world will be a better place.

it's not the atheists who use god as an excuse to justify all the wars and the racism they create using his name ...........

I agree and never said atheists justify by religion, but any true christians know justifying his name for evil is blaspheme, and nothing in the bible supports cruelty to humankind....