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Stavros
01-22-2012, 08:49 PM
The Conservative paper the Daily Telegraph has published a spirited defence of J Edgar Hoover to counter the negative image that has developed around the man, amplified to some extent by Clint Eastwood's film, which I have not seen (I did see the 1977 film The Private Files of J Edgar Hoover but don't recall much about it).

Was he a cross-dressing gay or is that a myth? Was he part-descended from black Slaves? Was he even interested in sex? I have no idea; what does puzzle me is that the FBI failed spectacularly to deal with the growth of the Cosa Nostra in the USA, and there are claims that Mafia boss Sam Giancana had photos of Hoover in flagrante delicto -but in spite of all this, is it not also the case that Hoover reformed the FBI as a national crime-fighting organisation? How does one square the organisational successes with its -allegedly- political controversies?

Its quite long but worth reading the link is below it.

In defence of J Edgar Hoover

By John Preston (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/journalists/john-preston/)

Daily Telegraph 21 Jan 2012
In 1936, 11,000 American schoolboys were asked to vote on who they thought was the most popular man in the United States.
J Edgar Hoover, Director of the FBI, came second, while the-then President Franklin D Roosevelt only made it into seventh place – the winner was Robert Ripley, creator of Ripley’s Believe It or Not! compendium of weird facts.
Thirty-five years later in 1971, a Gallup Poll for Newsweek found that 80 per cent of the people questioned rated Hoover’s performance as Director of the FBI as either “excellent” or “good”.
Just a year later, Hoover was dead of a heart attack aged 77. By then, a substantial gap had already opened up between the way he was perceived in private and in public. When President Nixon was told that Hoover had died, he apparently exclaimed, “Jesus Christ. That old c***sucker!”
But at Hoover’s funeral a few days later, Nixon’s tone had changed a good deal. Hoover, he intoned tremblingly, had been, “One of the giants... He personified integrity, he personified honour, he personified principle, he personified courage, he personified discipline, he personified dedication, he personified loyalty, he personified patriotism.”
Immediately after Hoover’s death, though, something very strange happened. Far from being the personification of integrity, honour and all the rest of it, he came to personify something else entirely.
Hoover, it seemed, had been a monster all along – corrupt, venal, egomaniacal, drunk, paranoid... The charge sheet stretched into infinity.
By 1998, Senator Harry Reid from Nevada was declaring that “J Edgar Hoover stands for what is bad in this country. This small man violated the rights of hundreds, if not thousands of people, famous and not so famous.”
It’s hard to see what Hoover’s size has to do with it, but the message was plain. Even in Washington DC – Hoover’s seat of power for almost half a century – his name was mud. Some people even wanted to see his name expunged from the place altogether. Every year from 2002 to 2008, a Republican congressman for Indiana called Dan Burton introduced a bill calling for J Edgar Hoover’s name to be chiselled off the front of the FBI headquarters.
Every year the bill was thrown out, but Burton plugged on regardless. As far as he was concerned, Hoover “clearly abused his role as Director of the FBI. Symbolism matters in the United States and it is clearly wrong to honor a man who frequently manipulated the law to achieve his personal goals".
It’s doubtful if anyone’s reputation has plummeted quite so far and so drastically as J Edgar Hoover’s. Before long, it had reached the point where anyone saying anything remotely good about him risked being accused of a form of latterday heresy. And then, just when it looked as if his reputation couldn’t fall any further, Hoover was outed as a homosexual.
So what, you might say? Surely his being gay didn’t make him bad at his job? But according to Hoover’s ever-swelling band of detractors, this just showed what a hypocrite he was – someone who’d ruthlessly persecuted other gays for their sexuality at the same time as conducting a long-running affair with his deputy, Clyde Tolson.
However, there was an even bigger story waiting in the wings. In 1991, a woman called Susan Rosenstiel signed a sworn affidavit saying that in 1958, she and her husband had been invited to a party in New York City’s Plaza Hotel. The Rosenstiels were told that the party was a strictly private affair and that if word ever got out about it, there would be drastic repercussions.
Entering the hotel by a side entrance, they took an elevator to the second floor. According to Rosenstiel, she walked in to see J Edgar Hoover “wearing a fluffy black dress, very fluffy, with flounces and lace stockings and high heels, and a black curly wig. He had make-up on and false eyelashes.”
The man was introduced to her as “Mary”, but Mrs Rosenstiel wasn’t fooled for a moment. “It was Hoover,” she recalled. “You could see where he shaved... I couldn’t believe it, that I should see the head of the FBI dressed as a woman.”
This was big all right, very big, but was it true? Almost certainly not. Susan Rosenstiel turned out to be a convicted perjurer whose husband had well-documented Mafia connections. Yet everyone - or almost everyone - was so eager to believe it that they weren’t going to let little things like that get in their way.
Where Rosenstiel led, others soon followed. The novelist William Styron claimed that Hoover had once been spotted painting Clyde Tolson’s toenails on the patio of a beach house in Malibu, California. While Styron hadn’t seen this himself, he admitted, he was confident the story was “absolutely true.”
But now after four decades of well-nigh unbroken denunciation, there are signs the pendulum might be swinging back the other way. An increasing number of people, criminologists in particular, are starting to question whether Hoover’s name has been unfairly blackened. No one in their right mind would deny that Hoover had his defects – a small mountain of them – but he did have virtues too, several of which have had a lastingly beneficial effect on law enforcement in America.
“Hoover was a very complex man,” says David Wilson, Professor of Criminology at Birmingham City University. “The difficulty is that he’s been reduced to almost a caricature of those complexities – and it’s the caricature that people now associate him with. It’s certainly true that Hoover did engage in some absolutely reprehensible behaviour. But if I look at him purely as a criminologist, he managed to do things that we have found hard to do in Britain.
“Above all, he created a supra-national police agency – the FBI. We kind-of think we have that over here, but we don’t: we have 43 separate police forces. I’ve been speaking today about the crimes committed by Robert Black – a convicted serial killer. Black escaped detection for as long as he did because he crossed police force boundary areas. He abducted a child from Edinburgh and dumped the child’s body in Leicestershire. And the police in Leicestershire didn’t necessarily link the discovery of that’s child’s body with the abduction of another child in another part of the UK.”
Hoover was only 29 when he was became Acting Director of the Bureau of Investigation, as it was originally known, in 1924. By then, he’d already proved himself to be an organisational genius – charged with hunting down suspected left-wing aliens in 1919, he collected the names of 150,000 alleged subversives in just three months.
When Hoover took over the Bureau, it was notorious for being the most incompetent corrupt government agency in Washington. Its agents were regarded – with ample justification – as quasi-criminals whose main motivation was to line their own pockets. But then they were so badly trained and their powers were so limited – they were forbidden to carry guns, or even make arrests until 1935 – that it was hardly surprising they were such a hopeless rabble.
Hoover only agreed to take on the job on condition that there would be no political meddling and that he’d be in sole control. He promptly fired around a quarter of all agents and instigated mandatory training for the ones who remained. He enforced strict rules of conduct - agents had to wear white shirts and black wing-tip shoes, and to be as courteous as they were efficient. For reasons no one seems able to explain, he also forbade the drinking of coffee at work after 8.15 in the morning.
As far as Hoover was concerned, the future of crime detection lay in scientific innovation. Deeply conservative in many respects, here at least he was way ahead of the game. Shortly after taking over, he established a national fingerprint collection – something that hadn’t been done anywhere else in the world – enabling law enforcement agencies to match fingerprints at crime scenes with those on file in Washington.
In 1932, Hoover set up the Bureau’s Technical Laboratory. This pioneered a number of techniques including investigation of different blood types, handwriting analysis and wire-tapping. But perhaps his greatest triumph was in PR. At a time of deep financial depression, when crime was being seen as increasingly glamorous, he persuaded his fellow Americans that bankrobbers such as John Dillinger and Machine Gun Kelly – both of whom he was instrumental in catching - were not romantic folk-heroes but ruthless killers.
Above all, by dint of a weekly radio address, comic strips featuring heroic bureau officers, as well as an unflagging appetite for self-publicity, he created an image of America as a place where the rule of law held sway.
“What Hoover was able to articulate is that crime was just crime and should be stamped out,” says Wilson, “In articulating those values, he began to articulate a sense of what America stands for.”
Clint Eastwood’s new film, J Edgar (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sponsored/entertainment/j-edgar-movie/), starring Leonardo DiCaprio, is being seen in some quarters at least as part of Hoover’s rehabilitation. Certainly it goes some way to humanising him, seeing him less as a frothing maniac and more as a victim of his own pathologies. But not everyone is happy – and especially not the J Edgar Hoover Foundation, which is up in arms over the way in which the film portrays Hoover as having a homosexual relationship with Clyde Tolson.
On the foundation’s website there’s an exchange of letters between the foundation’s Chairman, William Branon and Clint Eastwood.
Suggestions that Hoover was gay are “ludicrous,” Branon writes. “There is no much basis in fact for such a portrayal of Mr Hoover. It would be a grave injustice and a monumental distortion to proceed with such a depiction based on a completely unfounded and spurious allegation.”
In reply, Eastwood writes, “Please rest assured that we do not give any credence to cross-dressing allegations... nor do we intend to portray an open homosexual relationship between Mr Hoover and Clyde Tolson.... Though no one can know his private side with certainty, we hope that a thoughtful, intelligent portrayal of the man will put his life story in proper historical context.”
This exchange of letters took place before Branon had seen the film. But now that he has, he’s even more furious than he was before.
“I thought it was terrible,” he says. “An awful thing. I was sick when I saw it, especially in the light of Mr Eastwood’s letter. It’s like he’s turned Dirty Harry into Dirty Harriet. And I’d emphasise that we’re not a bunch of homophobes here; we’re just a few old guys trying to do the best we can for Mr Hoover’s legacy. I worked with both Hoover and Tolson. Trust me, neither of them were gay. If anything, Hoover was like an monk - the FBI was his church.”
The journalist and historian Charles Johnson, author of a forthcoming biography of Calvin Coolidge, also doubts if Hoover was gay. “My gut instinct is that he was probably asexual and wedded to his work. A lot has been made about how he lived with his mother for a long time, but that was pretty common for people who lived in Washington at the time. If you weren’t married and you came from the area, you lived with your family – it was a Southern tradition.”
One of the many strange things about Hoover is that a lot of people who have lambasted him for concealing his supposed homosexuality, have gone on – practically in the next breath - to accuse him of blackening people’s names by spreading unsubstantiated rumours about them.
But does it really matter what Hoover’s sexual tastes were? As far as Jacob Heilbrunn, senior editor at the American magazine The National Interest is concerned, all this speculation risks obscuring what’s interesting about Hoover. “The cross-dressing strikes me as particularly preposterous. It’s what political scientists call a Non-Falsifiable Hypothesis – you can’t disprove it because there’s no proof for it in the first place.
“There’s no question that Hoover’s record is a mixed one, but I don’t think he was a demon. He’s constantly being decried as being virulently anti-communist as if this was just a symptom of his paranoia. But if anything, he wasn’t vigilant enough in ferreting out communist infiltration in the Roosevelt administration – we now know from KGB archives that there were dozens if not hundreds of KGB informants working inside the government. He’s also regularly accused of broaching people’s civil liberties - but in fact, Hoover resisted the wire-tapping activities that President Nixon wanted to perpetuate.”
So why has Hoover been so demonised? In American fiction, particularly the works of James Ellroy, he’s invariably portrayed as the embodiment of vindictiveness and hypocrisy – although Ellroy has admitted that he finds Hoover “more fun to write about” than any other real-life figure.
Certainly Hoover looked the part, having a face once described as being “like a sledgehammer in search of an anvil”, but plainly there was more to it than that. Heilbrunn reckons that to a large extent he was a victim of the times that immediately followed his death. “You have to remember this was the time of the Vietnam War, of hippies and of Watergate. There was a pervasive distrust of American institutions and Hoover was seen as the spider in the centre of the web.”
“One of the great problems with Hoover,” says David Wilson, “is that for every positive, there’s a negative. He always pushed it too far and nobody dared pull him down to size. If there’s a lesson to be learned from his career, it’s that anyone who goes on for that long ultimately believes themselves to be invincible – and by the time they find out that they’re not, it’s too late.”
On May 1 1972, Hoover arrived home at around 10.15 at night and poured himself a glass of his favourite bourbon, Jack Daniels Black Label from a musical decanter which played “For He’s a Jolly Good Fellow” whenever it was lifted.
According to Anthony Summers, author of The Secret Life of J Edgar Hoover, which is being republished to coincide with the release of Eastwood’s film, he was phoned by Richard Nixon sometime before midnight. Nixon told him that after 48 years of controlling law enforcement in America, he was finally being kicked out.
When Hoover didn’t come down for breakfast the next morning, his housekeeper went upstairs to his bedroom. There, she found his body lying beside the bed. As rigor mortis had set in, it was estimated that Hoover had been dead since about 2am.
After he had been embalmed at the morticians, Hoover’s niece, Margaret Fennell, went in to see him. “He looked very good,” she recalled later, “But smaller than I remembered. I guess death does that to you.”
Yet death did not diminish Hoover – quite the reverse. It distended him, darkened him and turned him into a colossal bogeyman, a figure from a child’s nightmare. Ever since, his beady eyes have glowered down on successive generations of Americans who shiver dutifully whenever he’s mentioned, draw their coats around them and hurry on.
Perhaps the time has come for everyone to wake up and see him as he really was.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/personal-view/9028522/In-defence-of-J-Edgar-Hoover.html

Odelay
01-22-2012, 10:20 PM
My adolescence was spent during the late 60's and we still lionized the FBI and J Edgar, at least in the conservative Rocky Mountain West region of the country. History, since his death, has not been kind to him, as it should be for anyone in a similar position of power who has/had the authority to keep his own skeletons in the closet out of the view of the public.

Never knew the connection with William Styron. I'm surprised Styron would put his own reputation on the line on the basis of second hand information.

trish
01-22-2012, 10:35 PM
I saw the movie J. Edgar some weeks ago. It depicts the relationship between J. Edgar and C. Tolson as exceptionally special, close and “loving.” In the film there is no explicit reference to any sexual component of the relationship, though given the cross-dressing scenes and what the audience brings to the film before viewing, one might be expected to infer such a component.

The Hoover Foundation seems to think of homosexuality as a charge that's being leveled at Mr. Hoover. It’s ironic that Mr. Hoover himself thought of homosexuality as a crime and a failure of character with which one could be charged. This reprehensible perspective is not only outdated but calls into question the character of the Hoover Foundation.

The film does indeed go a long way toward rehabilitating Mr. Hoover, and a major part of Hoover’s re-humanization is due to the depiction of that special relationship he had with Mr. Tolson.

One lesson to be taken away from the film is that we are all humans and our actions can usually be understood in human terms. Rarely if ever is there a need to invoke the meta-human concepts cosmic good and cosmic evil. Another lesson ( I know it’s mundane) is that power corrupts and lending a single person that sort of power for the entirety of his life endangers his sanity and our freedoms.

hippifried
01-23-2012, 08:11 AM
What do we know about Hoover?

He was a megalomaniaccal asshole who never seemed to give a shit about the rights of human beings, especially privacy. But then again, he did follow orders & was responsible for busting up the worst terrorist threat the US has ever known, the klan. The FBI is probably the best organized law enforcement agency in the world, & draws exceptional recruits. They were one of the career options I checked out back in '68. I don't know about now, but then, in order to be an agent, you needed to be a lawyer, accountant, or both, & be fluent in at least one foreign language.

We also know he's dead. There were a lot of smiles on a lot of faces when that news broke in '72. As I look back over the decades since then, it would appear that the standards have slipped a bit.

All the rest of the stories about his personal proclivities are rumors that have become memes.

giovanni_hotel
01-23-2012, 05:07 PM
No middle aged single man has an 'exclusive' male traveling 'companion', even on vacations.

No single individual did more to advance the police state in the USA than JEH.

Stavros
01-23-2012, 11:14 PM
Curious, I was expecting a clutch of negative reactions, but I think what I have read tends to separate the FBI from the man, about whom the gossip seems unresolved, although Trish's point about being in office too long is spot-on, and applies to Prime Ministers and many others as well.

We do not have a national police force in the UK, complicated by the existence of three different legal systems (England and Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland), yet we have suffered as a result. On the other hand, the professionalism of the FBI has been led astray by its failure -assuming this is true- to deal with organised crime, and its obsession under Hoover with political figures like Martin Luther King, MalcolmX, and even a harmless idiot like John Lennon.

I think, on balance, there seems to be a positive view of the FBI, a negative view of Hoover. I don't like Leonardo di Caprio, but I think I will watch the film at some point in the future...

Yvonne183
01-24-2012, 12:16 AM
Here ya go, here's your negative resonse.

Your thread is no big deal, just more looney left crapola.

How about one of your darling leaders,, Churchill the racist.

“I do not admit… that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America, or the black people of Australia… by the fact that a stronger race, a higher grade race… has come in and taken its place.” -Churchill to Palestine Royal Commission, 1937

“I do not understand the squeamishness about the use of gas. I am strongly in favour of using poisonous gas against uncivilised tribes” – Writing as president of the Air Council.

Clean your own yard before you tell others to clean their yards.

Stavros
01-24-2012, 08:10 AM
I don't understand your anger, Yvonne. I was canvassing opinion on a topical subject without any particular bias, not suggesting that 'You' clean your own yard. We don't have the equivalent of the FBI here, and many people think that is a mistake; and if we were to have a national police force, the FBI would be a good model to base it on.

As for Churchill, you should not assume that because I was born in the same country as this half-American alcoholic racist, I share any of his views -in fact the opposite, I have fought against people like him all my life, and will continue to do so.

russtafa
01-24-2012, 12:25 PM
i wished we had Hoover to crush the commies and hippies Australia might be a lot better place today

hippifried
01-24-2012, 05:53 PM
We don't have the equivalent of the FBI here,

Doesn't Scotland Yard cover the whole country, or are they strictly London PD?

Prospero
01-24-2012, 07:25 PM
No middle aged single man has an 'exclusive' male traveling 'companion', even on vacations.

.

Our defence secretary did until recently. he was forced to resign.
Oh and its a very dull film.

Stavros
01-24-2012, 08:20 PM
Doesn't Scotland Yard cover the whole country, or are they strictly London PD?

Scotland Yard is the address of the Metropolitan Police, sometimes known as 'the Met', and only covers London, although the Police Commissioner who is in overall charge of the Police force is also based there -still vacant after the resignations last year.

We do have Military Intelligence which can cover the UK and dependent territories, almost all created at the outbreak of war in 1914 although there was a fledgling spying organisation owing to the arms race with Germany in the first decade of the 20th century. The divisions were/are:

MI1-Codebreaking, est. in the First World War, morphed into Bletchley Park in the Second World War, currently known as the General Communications HeadQuarters (GCHQ) and based in Cheltenham.
MI2 -Geographical intelligence, First World War
MI3 -Geographical intelligence, First World War (different regions) these two were merged in the Second World War and are now part of MI6
MI4 -Maps/aerial photos -since the Second World War moved into the Joint Air Photographic Intelligence Centre
MI5 - national defence and security, terrorism, domestic espionage
MI6 -foreign defence and security and espionage
MI7 -Propaganda -set up in the First World War, defunct.
MI8 -Signals Intelligence -moved into GCHQ after 1945
MI9 -Resistance Aid -mostly in the Second World War, disbanded
MI10 -Technical Analysis -mostly of weapons, now part of GCHQ
MI11 -Military security -limited to the Second World War
MI12 -Censorship -apparently this was moved into the main Ministry of Defence building after the war in 1945.

shemalemad
02-07-2012, 09:09 PM
To Russtafa: You don't need Hoover in (Her Majesty's Prison) HMP Australia, just tougher guards and hard labour!