Embarassing

[Prospero]

I wonder what the response is to this picture of Americans in action in Afghanistan. Are our American board members embarassed by this image?

[trish]

The first one, 'cause I thought Marines would have bigger dicks (and higher standards of honor).

[Yvonne183]

What other people do, doesn't embarrass me. But I think if other people do embarrass then embarrassment could be found anywhere.

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRig3ffuDi36WdQvH5CyhSBqmtDu2m_S lZB31YMWcCTvWjYr6gUoYDpReL6


http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTZDycDBVRzP3Ssmt-xptG4glFFJndcT7jRZvkrPBNqQGyudQ1fWQ


http://img.webring.com/r/b/baycityrollersan/logo

[russtafa]

So which of these to pictures is the most embarassing for you Americans.
And was it wikileaks who posed the first one initially!

The second picture is a branch of Walmart.i wouldn't piss on them if they were on fire

[Dino Velvet]

i wouldn't piss on them if they were on fire

But you'd further assist their drowning with urine.

That's a beautiful flag too.

http://www.australian-flag.org/australian-flag-640.jpg

[onmyknees]

So which of these to pictures is the most embarassing for you Americans.
And was it wikileaks who posed the first one initially!

The second picture is a branch of Walmart.

I've been waiting for this...Thank You . It's Not embarrassing to me as an American in the least....especially coming from a non- American. I suppose you have the right to comment, but you don't have the right to judge unless you've walked in their boots. These hypocritical politicians wringing their hands at press conferences deserve no less than what these dead Taliban got. They send these 20 year olds into battle in hostile environments tour after tour with rules of engagement that no one in combat should ever have to deal with, then expect them to act more like the Peace Corp than trained killers. I could relay atrocities from Nam that would make this look like a frat party. It happens. It ain't pretty, but neither is war. Is it conduct unbecoming? Yes....but if you don't think Limey soldiers did this to Nazi's in WW11, you're naive. The only thing different here is the I-phone. And as far as Karzai goes....he should be the next one to get pissed on. I can't wait for the Taliban to put his head on a stick 5 minutes after the last marine is gone. Here is what Col. West said, and I agree...


Rep. Allen West (R-Fla.), a former Army lieutenant colonel, sends THE WEEKLY STANDARD an email commenting on the Marines' video (http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/silence-republican-candidates_616690.html), and has given us permission to publish it.
http://www.weeklystandard.com/sites/all/files/imagecache/teaser-large/images/teasers/allenwest.jpg


“I have sat back and assessed the incident with the video of our Marines urinating on Taliban corpses. I do not recall any self-righteous indignation when our Delta snipers Shugart and Gordon had their bodies dragged through Mogadishu. Neither do I recall media outrage and condemnation of our Blackwater security contractors being killed, their bodies burned, and hung from a bridge in Fallujah.
“All these over-emotional pundits and armchair quarterbacks need to chill. Does anyone remember the two Soldiers from the 101st Airborne Division who were beheaded and gutted in Iraq?
“The Marines were wrong. Give them a maximum punishment under field grade level Article 15 (non-judicial punishment), place a General Officer level letter of reprimand in their personnel file, and have them in full dress uniform stand before their Battalion, each personally apologize to God, Country, and Corps videotaped and conclude by singing the full US Marine Corps Hymn without a teleprompter.
“As for everyone else, unless you have been shot at by the Taliban, shut your mouth, war is hell.”







<

[Dino Velvet]

Some character named Bashir is pissing on a whole country of poor muslims while they can still taste it. That's worthy of outrage perhaps. Leer over there for awhile. We'll be just fine thank you very much. We've solved our own problems for quite some time now. I'll let you know if we need a butler.

http://202.58.40.60/elements/img/article/638x359/skynews_695199.jpg

http://www.yourmiddleeast.com/media/news/images/2011/photo_1322387955205-1-0.jpg

http://images3.naharnet.com/images/22234/w460.jpg?1323347651

[Silcc69]

I could swear American's are suppose to be more civilized than the Taliban. But I guess i'm wrong.

[trish]

Everyone has the power to judge. It's called the capacity to think. Everyone has the right to express their judgment. It's called free speech. In this case, the Marine Corp will have the right to enforce their judgment.

But I know where you're coming from. If some assholes are shooting at me and I manage to kill them before they kill me, I reserve the right to piss on their dead bodies. It's not an honorable act, but understandable.

They do have surprisingly small dicks though, and I would've hoped they had displayed more honor than the Taliban displayed toward our soldiers. But that's love and war. If it were up to me I'd let them off with a reprimand. But the U.S. can't afford leniency here. I'm guessing these guys will at least be dishonorably discharged.

[onmyknees]

Everyone has the power to judge. It's called the capacity to think. Everyone has the right to express their judgment. It's called free speech. In this case, the Marine Corp will have the right to enforce their judgment.

But I know where you're coming from. If some assholes are shooting at me and I manage to kill them before they kill me, I reserve the right to piss on their dead bodies. It's not an honorable act, but understandable.

They do have surprisingly small dicks though, and I would've hoped they had displayed more honor than the Taliban displayed toward our soldiers. But that's love and war. If it were up to me I'd let them off with a reprimand. But the U.S. can't afford leniency here. I'm guessing these guys will at least be dishonorably discharged.


That's closer to being in agreement than we may ever be ! :Bowdown:


I would slightly disagree with you on the judgement thing.....while I may have the capacity or power to judge a terminal cancer patient that chooses illegal drugs when everything else has failed, I'd like to think I'd be very judicious and restrained with that judgement.

[Dino Velvet]

The Walmart sign was a judgement too.

[russtafa]

kill them and let god sort em out lol or don't go there in the first place

[fred41]

I could swear American's are suppose to be more civilized than the Taliban. But I guess i'm wrong.

I suppose the term civilized can be considered relative...

However, here's what I think:

What these young Marines did was in poor taste...and I wish to God someone, for once, would be smart enough not to record the act and then submit it on the internet....
BUT they didn't chop anyone's head off...they didn't burn anyone to death and hang em from a bridge...they didn't mutilate or rape any little girls cause they thought they committed some type of adultery...need I go on?!

...all they did was urinate on some bodies that are never going to feel it. Someone that would have blown them up or shot em in the head without a moment's thought. Someone who doesn't even consider the barbarity of their acts...ever.

So yeah, I still think we (and those young men) are more civilized...but you can think otherwise...from the safety of your home...same as me.

[russtafa]

I suppose the term civilized can be considered relative...

However, here's what I think:

What these young Marines did was in poor taste...and I wish to God someone, for once, would be smart enough not to record the act and then submit it on the internet....
BUT they didn't chop anyone's head off...they didn't burn anyone to death and hang em from a bridge...they didn't mutilate or rape any little girls cause they thought they committed some type of adultery...need I go on?!

...all they did was urinate on some bodies that are never going to feel it. Someone that would have blown them up or shot em in the head without a moment's thought. Someone who doesn't even consider the barbarity of their acts...ever.

So yeah, I still think we (and those young men) are more civilized...but you can think otherwise...from the safety of your home...same as me.
common sense

[Stavros]

Thucydides History of the Peloponessian War, written sometime before the author's death in 400BCE, contains graphic account of atrocities committed by troops from Athens and Sparta, Michael Walzer in Just and Unjust Wars provided a modern assessment of the rules of war as part of his critique of war as a political strategy/gamble, replete with atrocities from Greece to Vietnam -sadly there is nothing new in the humiliation process that takes places, whoever is doing it.

It is important for us to condemn all of it, be it the Marines dragged through the streets of Mogadishu -or in Vietnam (see Joris Ivens film April in Vietnam in the Year of the Cat if you must, even if the pilot was alive at the time)- or hung up on a bridge in Fallujah, or the soldiers who used to cut off the ears of Japanese soldiers to send home to mom; or the conscripted, cold, hungry, badly-led Argentinians summarily executed by British soldiers in the Falklands/Malvinas who should have been treated as legitimate POW's-the laws of war and the Geneva Conventions exist, but in spite of having journalists 'embedded' with the troops in order to 'write' stories, modern technology now enables us to see things best not seen at all.

But Prospero's subtle point is made -we are not so much sickened or outraged by it, as much as embarrassed -for the soldiers. We will eventually know the names of those 4 guys, but will we ever know the names of their victims? Proof that wars rarely achieve what they set out to achieve, and this nonsense in Afghanistan has achieved nothing at all, unless you are in the top echelons of the political and military elites in Afghanistan and Pakistan, who have become very very rich indeed -if they were in skirts we might think we were watching Mother Courage....

[Ben]

The scandal that isn’t on the video:

http://www.salon.com/2012/01/13/the_scandal_of_that_isnt_on_the_video/singleton/

[onmyknees]

Thucydides History of the Peloponessian War, written sometime before the author's death in 400BCE, contains graphic account of atrocities committed by troops from Athens and Sparta, Michael Walzer in Just and Unjust Wars provided a modern assessment of the rules of war as part of his critique of war as a political strategy/gamble, replete with atrocities from Greece to Vietnam -sadly there is nothing new in the humiliation process that takes places, whoever is doing it.

It is important for us to condemn all of it, be it the Marines dragged through the streets of Mogadishu -or in Vietnam (see Joris Ivens film April in Vietnam in the Year of the Cat if you must, even if the pilot was alive at the time)- or hung up on a bridge in Fallujah, or the soldiers who used to cut off the ears of Japanese soldiers to send home to mom; or the conscripted, cold, hungry, badly-led Argentinians summarily executed by British soldiers in the Falklands/Malvinas who should have been treated as legitimate POW's-the laws of war and the Geneva Conventions exist, but in spite of having journalists 'embedded' with the troops in order to 'write' stories, modern technology now enables us to see things best not seen at all.

But Prospero's subtle point is made -we are not so much sickened or outraged by it, as much as embarrassed -for the soldiers. We will eventually know the names of those 4 guys, but will we ever know the names of their victims? Proof that wars rarely achieve what they set out to achieve, and this nonsense in Afghanistan has achieved nothing at all, unless you are in the top echelons of the political and military elites in Afghanistan and Pakistan, who have become very very rich indeed -if they were in skirts we might think we were watching Mother Courage....


Again...speak for yourself...I'm not embarrassed, and I'm an American and a vet. Victims? I can tell you that when someone is trying to kill you, and you happen to be fortunate enough to off him first, you don't consider him a victim. A victim is a grandmother walking a poodle and struck by a drunk driver. Let me do a quick look back and see if I can find a thread where you condemned the events in Black Hawk down. You do so here to appear to be even handed, but I don't recall near the condemnation back then......not because Americans wouldn't be outraged, just that Americans weren't paying attention, but that's another matter. In America we tend to romanticize war as though it was a game with rules because most have never experienced it's horror first hand. We think nothing of seeing a Sioux warrior scalp a white eye, but to most that seems so far removed and almost fantasy...I don't condone what these marines did, but I know of far worse incidents....
Here's an irony for all you holier than thou sorts. All major news organizations refused to show workers jumping from world trade center inferno to their death on the street below because or a variety of reasons....too gruesome I suppose, yet I've seen this marine vid all over the TV and print media. Curious

[Silcc69]

I suppose the term civilized can be considered relative...

However, here's what I think:

What these young Marines did was in poor taste...and I wish to God someone, for once, would be smart enough not to record the act and then submit it on the internet....
BUT they didn't chop anyone's head off...they didn't burn anyone to death and hang em from a bridge...they didn't mutilate or rape any little girls cause they thought they committed some type of adultery...need I go on?!

...all they did was urinate on some bodies that are never going to feel it. Someone that would have blown them up or shot em in the head without a moment's thought. Someone who doesn't even consider the barbarity of their acts...ever.

So yeah, I still think we (and those young men) are more civilized...but you can think otherwise...from the safety of your home...same as me.

Thing is we are looked upon as being better than those savages. We are the biggest world power so we are suppose to set an example. Just like when the soldier had the guy on the table with a bag on his head and dick by a string. That isn't the best look for us. Kill the fuckers and be on with it no need to piss on somebody or any other extracurricular activities.

[russtafa]

Again...speak for yourself...I'm not embarrassed, and I'm an American and a vet. Victims? I can tell you that when someone is trying to kill you, and you happen to be fortunate enough to off him first, you don't consider him a victim. A victim is a grandmother walking a poodle and struck by a drunk driver. Let me do a quick look back and see if I can find a thread where you condemned the events in Black Hawk down. You do so here to appear to be even handed, but I don't recall near the condemnation back then......not because Americans wouldn't be outraged, just that Americans weren't paying attention, but that's another matter. In America we tend to romanticize war as though it was a game with rules because most have never experienced it's horror first hand. We think nothing of seeing a Sioux warrior scalp a white eye, but to most that seems so far removed and almost fantasy...I don't condone what these marines did, but I know of far worse incidents....
Here's an irony for all you holier than thou sorts. All major news organizations refused to show workers jumping from world trade center inferno to their death on the street below because or a variety of reasons....too gruesome I suppose, yet I've seen this marine vid all over the TV and print media. Curiousleft wing bias ?

[Silcc69]

Thucydides History of the Peloponessian War, written sometime before the author's death in 400BCE, contains graphic account of atrocities committed by troops from Athens and Sparta, Michael Walzer in Just and Unjust Wars provided a modern assessment of the rules of war as part of his critique of war as a political strategy/gamble, replete with atrocities from Greece to Vietnam -sadly there is nothing new in the humiliation process that takes places, whoever is doing it.

It is important for us to condemn all of it, be it the Marines dragged through the streets of Mogadishu -or in Vietnam (see Joris Ivens film April in Vietnam in the Year of the Cat if you must, even if the pilot was alive at the time)- or hung up on a bridge in Fallujah, or the soldiers who used to cut off the ears of Japanese soldiers to send home to mom; or the conscripted, cold, hungry, badly-led Argentinians summarily executed by British soldiers in the Falklands/Malvinas who should have been treated as legitimate POW's-the laws of war and the Geneva Conventions exist, but in spite of having journalists 'embedded' with the troops in order to 'write' stories, modern technology now enables us to see things best not seen at all.

But Prospero's subtle point is made -we are not so much sickened or outraged by it, as much as embarrassed -for the soldiers. We will eventually know the names of those 4 guys, but will we ever know the names of their victims? Proof that wars rarely achieve what they set out to achieve, and this nonsense in Afghanistan has achieved nothing at all, unless you are in the top echelons of the political and military elites in Afghanistan and Pakistan, who have become very very rich indeed -if they were in skirts we might think we were watching Mother Courage....

I disagree with that they aren't victims unless they are civilians.

[russtafa]

i think war is the most evil ,mind destroying thing this world has ever known but if 2 sides go to war they should see it to the grim evil end not like Vietnam where the issue was not concluded or Irak

[Stavros]

Again...speak for yourself...I'm not embarrassed, and I'm an American and a vet. Victims? I can tell you that when someone is trying to kill you, and you happen to be fortunate enough to off him first, you don't consider him a victim. A victim is a grandmother walking a poodle and struck by a drunk driver. Let me do a quick look back and see if I can find a thread where you condemned the events in Black Hawk down. You do so here to appear to be even handed, but I don't recall near the condemnation back then......not because Americans wouldn't be outraged, just that Americans weren't paying attention, but that's another matter. In America we tend to romanticize war as though it was a game with rules because most have never experienced it's horror first hand. We think nothing of seeing a Sioux warrior scalp a white eye, but to most that seems so far removed and almost fantasy...I don't condone what these marines did, but I know of far worse incidents....
Here's an irony for all you holier than thou sorts. All major news organizations refused to show workers jumping from world trade center inferno to their death on the street below because or a variety of reasons....too gruesome I suppose, yet I've seen this marine vid all over the TV and print media. Curious

A) You are hardly going to find me referring to the incident in Somalia which happened in 1994; and I have condemned it here, and the other examples of prisoners or war, dead or alive, being abused, by whoever is doing it.

B) According to the Laws of War, the Geneva Convention, and just basic decency, even dead enemies have rights; the guerillas might not have been victims while fighting for their country, but once they were killed they had the right to be treated with decency and respect; they were not; they became victims of the hubris of men in uniform deluded into thinking that humiliating their combatants is an acceptable ritual. It is not.

[onmyknees]

A) You are hardly going to find me referring to the incident in Somalia which happened in 1994; and I have condemned it here, and the other examples of prisoners or war, dead or alive, being abused, by whoever is doing it.

B) According to the Laws of War, the Geneva Convention, and just basic decency, even dead enemies have rights; the guerillas might not have been victims while fighting for their country, but once they were killed they had the right to be treated with decency and respect; they were not; they became victims of the hubris of men in uniform deluded into thinking that humiliating their combatants is an acceptable ritual. It is not.


Well.........if you did post that, I stand correct. I don't recall it.

Geneva Convention ?????? Why don't we just have a dual with flintlock pistols?

While I understand what you're saying in the abstract, what does your convention rules say about the enemy wearing uniforms and being identifiable? You think these savages play by the Marcus of Queensbury rules...they're breaking rocks with a primitive hammer one minute, and shooting their AK-47's at women and children the next. Get real Stavros.

Yes US soldiers should be held to a higher standard, but you fight savagery with more savagery. You barge in and shoot first and ask questions later...ala Seal Team 6.

[russtafa]

Their hero Bin Laden hid behind a woman like the true muslim dog he is .I think we should bring back the warrior religious orders to deal with these fucks so we can bath in their blood and kill and kill until there are no muslims left and besides it would be great fun and give the young blokes a hobby

[Brittany St Jordan]

You are surprised that Marines are pissing on dead enemies? I'm surprised one of them isn't wearing a crown of ears. Marines aren't the fucking girl scouts. They are trained to decimate and destroy not sell cookies and sew on merit badges.

On one hand there is a lot of hate and discontent in this thread but on the other there are some honest views being expressed. Honesty isn't always appreciated though, because it often hurts or offends. I won't take any one side here but it is nice to see where some of you stand in this world.

[arnie666]

why do bedwetting liberals want to gut brave men,,brave men worth ten of me and you using the vermin running the media, when you apologise and whine about child murderers, rapists and woman beaters when they are punished?

Wall to wall internet pornography, drug addiction to mind altering legal and illegal drugs, encouraged by the liberal establishment, reality tv.yeah lets ruin men's lives, men who put their lives on the line for our country.because british serviceman aren't safe from the media scum and liberal establishment. Take me out to the ball game ,all of you are worms who do not stand with these men against the obamination and the media scum.

Don't you see you thick idiots, obama wants to cut the us marines, why? Because they are far too white and hetrosexual for him and his racist metrosexual friends. Stop drinking the cool aid you schumucks.oh and one day there will be a reckoning and on that day you will beg for men like these to save you.Thats why this is all over the mainstream media, to help the kenyan in the whitehouse to help him cut the US marines, a fine body of men and women.

[arnie666]

So which of these to pictures is the most embarassing for you Americans.
And was it wikileaks who posed the first one initially!

The second picture is a branch of Walmart.

Fuck off cunt, why don't you go to the war graves in france and dig up some WW2 vets graves because one or two might have rifled through a dead germans corpse and stolen a dagger or two. Thats right,get right in the graves and rip the medals off them you muppet . Because believe me what those marines done is childs play to what other shit goes on wars throughout history.My grandad was in the bombers over germany ,you should have heard what he was going to do to the germans if they shot him down .He was going to get revenge for hanging his mates from lamposts as 'terror flyers'.Any german it didn't matter. It would have made you piss yourself by the sounds of it.Although I think now he would have wondered why the fuck we fought the germans,the state our country is in now.

You train men up and send them off to kill don't be surprised some nasty shit happens. If you have a fucking problem spunk chops moan at the politicians who sent them out there. What they ragheads do to our prisoners I wouldn't have given a fuck if the marines had shagged the corpses. Not a few months ago, a 19 yr old sweaty sock, got captured tortured and his throat cut, by the taliban.19 yr old He was one of ours and you are crying about what 3 yank marines did to some dead ones?

What a cunt seriously.

[arnie666]

Don't women realise that some men find the thought of this fucking hot?I'd like her to take a shit in my mouth while reading mein kampf out loud.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=002ZoVk6Txo

CNN contributor no less.I hear bill maher, who is a bed wetting liberal couldn't give a fuck about 3 dead ragheads either. So why are people moaning again?

[Fancy fancy]

Mein Kampf does go on a bit Arnie boy, how about reading the wind in the willows instead?





Don't women realise that some men find the thought of this fucking hot?I'd like her to take a shit in my mouth while reading mein kampf out loud.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=002ZoVk6Txo

CNN contributor no less.I hear bill maher, who is a bed wetting liberal couldn't give a fuck about 3 dead ragheads either. So why are people moaning again?

[Prospero]

Oh my - this little posting has brought the violence out in some of you, hasn't it. We loudly proclaim the primacy of western civilisation. How we are the people with noble and high values. And then we get racist, sexist primitives like Arnie spewing utter filth. His contributions are not worth consideration. This man has the audacity to wear a policeman's uniform in the UK. His colleagues would be ashamed if they read what he posts here. An iredeemable and ignorant scumbag who is surely worse than many of those his job gives him the right to arrest.

I do not condemn men of war doing what men of war have to do - which is fighting and killing the enemy. But the racism incarnate in remarks by Russtafa gives pause for thought surely - labelling all Muslims as primitives because of the propensity of a deluded section of their faith. Remember what the primitives of Christianity did in long centuries of the past - the inquisitition, burning apostates alive, killing religious dissidents enmasse, burning "witches', slaughtering the natives of conquered lands in the name of religion and so on. But does history matter? I guess not. And yes of course you could show us worse Onyouknees - soldiers commit atrocities. In Vietnam, in WW2 etc. But because it happens is no excuse for saying it is okay. It is never okay. Those who commit atrocities should be brought to justice. And those who dishonour the dead enemy should also be ashamed. This has nothing to do with left or right. It has to do with basic human decency. We can hardly hold our heads up and proclaim that we are better,and more civilised, when we see this - and in the case of some of the folk posting here condone this.

[russtafa]

Oh my - this little posting has brought the violence out in some of you, hasn't it. We loudly proclaim the primacy of western civilisation. How we are the people with noble and high values. And then we get racist, sexist primitives like Arnie spewing utter filth. His contributions are not worth consideration. This man has the audacity to wear a policeman's uniform in the UK. His colleagues would be ashamed if they read what he posts here. An iredeemable and ignorant scumbag who is surely worse than many of those his job gives him the right to arrest.

I do not condemn men of war doing what men of war have to do - which is fighting and killing the enemy. But the racism incarnate in remarks by Russtafa gives pause for thought surely - labelling all Muslims as primitives because of the propensity of a deluded section of their faith. Remember what the primitives of Christianity did in long centuries of the past - the inquisitition, burning apostates alive, killing religious dissidents enmasse, burning "witches', slaughtering the natives of conquered lands in the name of religion and so on. But does history matter? I guess not. And yes of course you could show us worse Onyouknees - soldiers commit atrocities. In Vietnam, in WW2 etc. But because it happens is no excuse for saying it is okay. It is never okay. Those who commit atrocities should be brought to justice. And those who dishonour the dead enemy should also be ashamed. This has nothing to do with left or right. It has to do with basic human decency. We can hardly hold our heads up and proclaim that we are better,and more civilised, when we see this - and in the case of some of the folk posting here condone this.
hey i'm not racist i just want these slimy ragheads to stay in their own country where they will be happy digging around in the dust and shit where they belong ,its you lefties that want them in our countries where they can fuck the place up by doing what comes naturally to them,ie =blowing up buildings and smelling like shit and wearing their pjs in the daytime and making their women look like letter boxes:banghead

[Prospero]

LOL.. Russtafa. "Not racist" "Slimy ragheads" "smelling like shit." You are a comedian, surely.
Jews "funny looking' 'take all of our money" "Steal our women" "global conspiracy" Ring any bells. C'mon - recongise what you are at the very least.

[russtafa]

LOL.. Russtafa. "Not racist" "Slimy ragheads" "smelling like shit." You are a comedian, surely.
Jews "funny looking' 'take all of our money" "Steal our women" "global conspiracy" Ring any bells. C'mon - recongise what you are at the very least.

no don't hate jews they don't blow up buildings and trains i hate these rug kissers but i would not hate them if they stayed in their own shit holes but you lefties want them living amongst us

[Stavros]

Well.........if you did post that, I stand correct. I don't recall it.

Geneva Convention ?????? Why don't we just have a dual with flintlock pistols?

While I understand what you're saying in the abstract, what does your convention rules say about the enemy wearing uniforms and being identifiable? You think these savages play by the Marcus of Queensbury rules...they're breaking rocks with a primitive hammer one minute, and shooting their AK-47's at women and children the next. Get real Stavros.

Yes US soldiers should be held to a higher standard, but you fight savagery with more savagery. You barge in and shoot first and ask questions later...ala Seal Team 6.

I think there is a problem here that has emerged with so-called Guerilla Warfare since Vietnam -no, armies no longer line up in formation in fields and march forward behind a flag, a drummer-boy and someone playing a pipe or bagpipes (often with their relatives watching from a nearby hill-top); we no longer have Presidents or Prime Ministers on the radio or tv making a solemn declaration of war -these days we tend to find coalitions are formed, UN Security Council Resolutions passed, and action taking place on that basis.

Legally it is the Jus in bello -the right to wage war; and the Jus in bellum -the right behaviour during the war, where the distinction between combatants and non-combatants is -or used to be- a basic benchmark, but where the treatment of the wounded, the dead, and the civilians were also codified in law -and these centuries of law-making that began in at least 1648 have also been absorbed into military field-manuals.

The reason for this and the Geneva Conventions, is so that at someone can be held accountable for whatever grievance it was that led to so much killing. Hence the Paris Peace Conferences, to take one obious example.
It is the process that sent Milosovic, Karadzic and Mladic to The Hague -firing on non-combatants in a conflict is illegal and they are there to be held accountable for the siege of Sarajevo, the death camps in Bosnia, Srebrenica and so on.

The US Armed Forces have field manuals that detail how service personnel are expected to behave -and the military has put its own on trial, most notably in the aftermath of My Lai.

If you think this is just window dressing for liberals, it is you deciding that everything that has happened since the Treaty of Westphalia in 1648 has been a waste of time; that would include every peace treaty ever signed since then, every trial of every war criminal, from Tala't Pasha in 1919 and the Nazi's at Nuremberg and Eichmann in 1960. If you do think that anything goes in wartime, that it is kill or be killed, you stand apart from all the military professionals, lawyers and politicians who recognise that this removes all barriers to behaviour and in addition, makes the resolution of differences after the war much more difficult.

You should be asking why it is that young Americans have been sent to Afganistan to change a society that doesn't want it anymore than their fathers did not want the USSR to change Afghanistan for the same reasons: so that it would not be a pain in everyone's ass. The people of Afghanistan are fighting NATO in the same way that the French people fought the German occupation, to argue that they should be wearing a uniform is daft, their clothes are their uniform, which is why so many non-Taliban get killed, and why they can never be beaten.

President Carter might have been the initial agency that sparked this conflict -Brzezinski has claimed the US fired the first shots to draw the USSR into a fatal occupation/unwinnable war, my view is that Brzesinksi was the main mover in this, because Carter was always more concerned with diplomacy than war, and just as Carter now stands head and shoulders above Bush and Cheney precisely because of the folly of pre-emptive attacks and regime change, it is time for people like you to concede that it is precisely a policy of You barge in and shoot first and ask questions later that has led to this disaster, that is directly responsible for the death and injury -mental as well as physical- of young Americans, that has meant that NATO cannot defeat 25,000 Taliban anymore than the British Army could defeat 2,000 Provos in Northern Ireland.

It doesn't work, it brutalises people, it humiliates people be they dead or alive, it doesn't solve the political problem that caused it, and it costs trillions of $$$$, most of which ends up in the secret bank accounts of corrupt politicians, arms dealers, and Generals. War isn't just inefficient, it isn't just hell, its a waste of money.

[russtafa]

it's fucked we should not be there and no muslim should be here as they do not seem to assimilate and in fact expect society to change for them

[Prospero]

Some Muslims are from within your own cultural ranks - ie white converts. This is true in the US, Europe and Australia. In the US and UK there are also many Muslims who are black citizens who have converted. You would have them expelled from "the West" as well, Mr Russtafa?

And on a point of fact - very very few Muslims blow up buildings etc. The overwhelming majority are ordinary law abiding peaceful people who simply want to live their lives, worship in their church (mosque) of choice and work for the good of whichever nation they now live in as citizens.

[russtafa]

they can go live with their demolition mates and kiss carpets in the land of the sand bunker

[onmyknees]

Oh my - this little posting has brought the violence out in some of you, hasn't it. We loudly proclaim the primacy of western civilisation. How we are the people with noble and high values. And then we get racist, sexist primitives like Arnie spewing utter filth. His contributions are not worth consideration. This man has the audacity to wear a policeman's uniform in the UK. His colleagues would be ashamed if they read what he posts here. An iredeemable and ignorant scumbag who is surely worse than many of those his job gives him the right to arrest.

I do not condemn men of war doing what men of war have to do - which is fighting and killing the enemy. But the racism incarnate in remarks by Russtafa gives pause for thought surely - labelling all Muslims as primitives because of the propensity of a deluded section of their faith. Remember what the primitives of Christianity did in long centuries of the past - the inquisitition, burning apostates alive, killing religious dissidents enmasse, burning "witches', slaughtering the natives of conquered lands in the name of religion and so on. But does history matter? I guess not. And yes of course you could show us worse Onyouknees - soldiers commit atrocities. In Vietnam, in WW2 etc. But because it happens is no excuse for saying it is okay. It is never okay. Those who commit atrocities should be brought to justice. And those who dishonour the dead enemy should also be ashamed. This has nothing to do with left or right. It has to do with basic human decency. We can hardly hold our heads up and proclaim that we are better,and more civilised, when we see this - and in the case of some of the folk posting here condone this.



With all due respect, you're naive and idealistic. That's OK....in fact it's admirable. But there's nothing civilized or decent about war. There is little human decency. You kill, maim , or be killed. It's as primal as that. You don't seem to understand that because you like so many others have been sanitized to what war is. Young men in combat week after week loosing brothers and narrowly escaping death themselves numerous times can't always walk the razor's edge you and the other armchair advocates would like them to.Yours is essentially the same argument we hear about water boarding, and is precisely why the US will never again achieve total victory over any present or future enemy.
I don't want you to misunderstand. I don't condone what the marines did. I understand it and relate to it. They should be disciplined quietly, handed their rifles back, and sent to kill more bad guys.... and the politicians should stay the fuck out of it.

[trish]

It's too late to quietly discipline these pissers. Had they not filmed the event and uploaded to the internet one might have quietly given them latrine duty for a month and left it at that. Uploading the clip was tantamount to gloating and publicly taunting their disrespect. Whether they uploaded or some other fucker did, their poor judgment is now the center of international attention. There will be serious and justifiable consequences. Their action, though understandable, is certainly not honorable__nor is it legal by international law or even just the Marine code of conduct__nor is it wise, because the escalation of such behavior will endanger the lives [of] fellow soldiers and supporting civilians__finally their actions reflect poorly on the Nation in the eyes of the rest of the world. Remember, we're trying to win the hearts and minds of the non-Taliban population. This didn't help. At this point simply slapping the offending urinators will be interpreted by everybody watching as condoning their behavior, and as you agree, we cannot do so. (Do I understand properly that you don't condone water boarding either though you find it understandable?)

[Silcc69]

why do bedwetting liberals want to gut brave men,,brave men worth ten of me and you using the vermin running the media, when you apologise and whine about child murderers, rapists and woman beaters when they are punished?

Wall to wall internet pornography, drug addiction to mind altering legal and illegal drugs, encouraged by the liberal establishment, reality tv.yeah lets ruin men's lives, men who put their lives on the line for our country.because british serviceman aren't safe from the media scum and liberal establishment. Take me out to the ball game ,all of you are worms who do not stand with these men against the obamination and the media scum.

Don't you see you thick idiots, obama wants to cut the us marines, why? Because they are far too white and hetrosexual for him and his racist metrosexual friends. Stop drinking the cool aid you schumucks.oh and one day there will be a reckoning and on that day you will beg for men like these to save you.Thats why this is all over the mainstream media, to help the kenyan in the whitehouse to help him cut the US marines, a fine body of men and women.

Ah you certainly don't hold back I see.

[Stavros]

With all due respect, you're naive and idealistic. That's OK....in fact it's admirable. But there's nothing civilized or decent about war. There is little human decency. You kill, maim , or be killed. It's as primal as that. You don't seem to understand that because you like so many others have been sanitized to what war is. Young men in combat week after week loosing brothers and narrowly escaping death themselves numerous times can't always walk the razor's edge you and the other armchair advocates would like them to.Yours is essentially the same argument we hear about water boarding, and is precisely why the US will never again achieve total victory over any present or future enemy.
I don't want you to misunderstand. I don't condone what the marines did. I understand it and relate to it. They should be disciplined quietly, handed their rifles back, and sent to kill more bad guys.... and the politicians should stay the fuck out of it.

I ought to be insulted by your claim that I am 'naive and idealistic', but it suggests a stunning ignorance on your part of a long, and documented history of the politics and the laws of war -you seem to either think that the history of armed conflict is equivalent to a John Wayne or a Sylvester Stallone movie; or wish that it was. If your reasoning were to hold, the Japanese should have killed captured servicement instead of putting them in camps, just as the Allied Powers should never have bothered to imprison captured soldiers -but why stop there? The Japanese attacked the USA at Pearl Harbour -why bother to intern Japanese Americans when you could kill them all? After all, as you say there's nothing civilized or decent about war. There is little human decency. You kill, maim , or be killed. It's as primal as that... and as you make no distinction between combatants and non-combatants those Japanese Americans should all have been toast.

The reality -not the ideal condition- the factual and informed -not the naive- history of armed conflict does concern the observance of rules, as well as the transgressions. You have opted for one side rather than another, in favour of violent, nihilist anarchy against international law and the values of a democratic society.

But lets look at this statement: Yours is essentially the same argument we hear about water boarding, and is precisely why the US will never again achieve total victory over any present or future enemy. Victory? What Victory? The only military victory the USA can claim since Hiroshima and Nagasaki is the successful invasion of Grenada in 1983, which is equivalent to the 82nd Airborne achieving a successful lock-down of Carnegie Hall (empty except for the Janitor). Waterboarding achieved nothing, something like 90% of the people interned in Guantanamo had never engaged the USA in any kind of military action, most were shopped by people in Afghanistan and Pakistan to get the money that was offered.

What depresses me is that you start from the position that you are under attack and must respond, without ever asking why? What is the purpose of armed conflict, and what does it achieve? I deplore war as an instrument of politics, because it fails to achieve the objectives which can be, and which eventually are reached by diplomacy. I am not soft on terror, I am not an armchair liberal, but a realist, someone who believes every conflict in the world can be solved with debate and diplomacy, and not through violence which creates more problems than it solves, which costs astronomical sums of money, and which ruins the lives of young people and their families.

My mother drove an ambulance during the Blitz in London; she used to fetch bodies, too often pieces of a human body from the wreckage of people's homes-she became a pacifist as a result, and I am honoured to follow in her slipstream, because Pacifism is the only courageous position that a human can take today, war has become the refuge of cowards, specifically those politicians and self-appointed 'leaders' like Osama bin Laden who neither want nor are capable of discussing their grievances, but who believe that if they want something they should just kill anyone who gets in their way to get it. In a world of so many options, why choose the one that doesn't work, that has been demonstrated time after time not to work?

[russtafa]

I ought to be insulted by your claim that I am 'naive and idealistic', but it suggests a stunning ignorance on your part of a long, and documented history of the politics and the laws of war -you seem to either think that the history of armed conflict is equivalent to a John Wayne or a Sylvester Stallone movie; or wish that it was. If your reasoning were to hold, the Japanese should have killed captured servicement instead of putting them in camps, just as the Allied Powers should never have bothered to imprison captured soldiers -but why stop there? The Japanese attacked the USA at Pearl Harbour -why bother to intern Japanese Americans when you could kill them all? After all, as you say there's nothing civilized or decent about war. There is little human decency. You kill, maim , or be killed. It's as primal as that... and as you make no distinction between combatants and non-combatants those Japanese Americans should all have been toast.

The reality -not the ideal condition- the factual and informed -not the naive- history of armed conflict does concern the observance of rules, as well as the transgressions. You have opted for one side rather than another, in favour of violent, nihilist anarchy against international law and the values of a democratic society.

But lets look at this statement: Yours is essentially the same argument we hear about water boarding, and is precisely why the US will never again achieve total victory over any present or future enemy. Victory? What Victory? The only military victory the USA can claim since Hiroshima and Nagasaki is the successful invasion of Grenada in 1983, which is equivalent to the 82nd Airborne achieving a successful lock-down of Carnegie Hall (empty except for the Janitor). Waterboarding achieved nothing, something like 90% of the people interned in Guantanamo had never engaged the USA in any kind of military action, most were shopped by people in Afghanistan and Pakistan to get the money that was offered.

What depresses me is that you start from the position that you are under attack and must respond, without ever asking why? What is the purpose of armed conflict, and what does it achieve? I deplore war as an instrument of politics, because it fails to achieve the objectives which can be, and which eventually are reached by diplomacy. I am not soft on terror, I am not an armchair liberal, but a realist, someone who believes every conflict in the world can be solved with debate and diplomacy, and not through violence which creates more problems than it solves, which costs astronomical sums of money, and which ruins the lives of young people and their families.

My mother drove an ambulance during the Blitz in London; she used to fetch bodies, too often pieces of a human body from the wreckage of people's homes-she became a pacifist as a result, and I am honoured to follow in her slipstream, because Pacifism is the only courageous position that a human can take today, war has become the refuge of cowards, specifically those politicians and self-appointed 'leaders' like Osama bin Laden who neither want nor are capable of discussing their grievances, but who believe that if they want something they should just kill anyone who gets in their way to get it. In a world of so many options, why choose the one that doesn't work, that has been demonstrated time after time not to work?
The converts seem to cause the worst problem at least here in Australia and i would be more than happy to deport them to the islamic country of their choice

[arnie666]

Oh my - this little posting has brought the violence out in some of you, hasn't it. We loudly proclaim the primacy of western civilisation. How we are the people with noble and high values. And then we get racist, sexist primitives like Arnie spewing utter filth. His contributions are not worth consideration. This man has the audacity to wear a policeman's uniform in the UK. His colleagues would be ashamed if they read what he posts here. An iredeemable and ignorant scumbag who is surely worse than many of those his job gives him the right to arrest.

I do not condemn men of war doing what men of war have to do - which is fighting and killing the enemy. But the racism incarnate in remarks by Russtafa gives pause for thought surely - labelling all Muslims as primitives because of the propensity of a deluded section of their faith. Remember what the primitives of Christianity did in long centuries of the past - the inquisitition, burning apostates alive, killing religious dissidents enmasse, burning "witches', slaughtering the natives of conquered lands in the name of religion and so on. But does history matter? I guess not. And yes of course you could show us worse Onyouknees - soldiers commit atrocities. In Vietnam, in WW2 etc. But because it happens is no excuse for saying it is okay. It is never okay. Those who commit atrocities should be brought to justice. And those who dishonour the dead enemy should also be ashamed. This has nothing to do with left or right. It has to do with basic human decency. We can hardly hold our heads up and proclaim that we are better,and more civilised, when we see this - and in the case of some of the folk posting here condone this.

'An iredeemable and ignorant scumbag who is surely worse than many of those his job gives him the right to arrest'.

1 I am like Michael foot compared to some of the animals I work with.

2 That above statement shows your naivety, if you were in the same room as the punters who I deal with ,you would be in the shower for hours. If any of them were interested in you, you would be on your knees praying for me and my fellow ignorant scumbags to appear.

3 you still don't get the point, war is a horrible business, I work with some who were in the mob, unfortunately some of them also become punters. You send men and women into these shitholes ,ask them to cross swords with medieval throwbacks,some scars you cannot see , I guarantee you were sent over there did a tour , you wouldn't have started this topic. Do I think it is fine to urinate on corpses no I don't, in fact they should be punished for it by their officers in the field . What I object to is all the handwringing and condemnation from armchair quarter backs which to me is bollocks. And I know you are not stupid, think about why this is constantly being talked over and over in the news. There are far bigger issues, than 4 blokes who mades twats of themselves on camera.

4 where is your topic on the 200 odd US armed forces personnel cremated remains that were dumped in landfill sites, despite the families given assurances these people would be treated with the respect they deserve. Some respect .

[Prospero]

Arnie - have you been to a warfront? I have. I have seen it close-up so I DO know what I'm talking about.

[Prospero]

Arnie wrote: "why do bedwetting liberals want to gut brave men,,brave men worth ten of me and you using the vermin running the media, when you apologise and whine about child murderers, rapists and woman beaters when they are punished?

Wall to wall internet pornography, drug addiction to mind altering legal and illegal drugs, encouraged by the liberal establishment, reality tv.yeah lets ruin men's lives, men who put their lives on the line for our country.because british serviceman aren't safe from the media scum and liberal establishment. Take me out to the ball game ,all of you are worms who do not stand with these men against the obamination and the media scum.

"Don't you see you thick idiots, obama wants to cut the us marines, why? Because they are far too white and hetrosexual for him and his racist metrosexual friends. Stop drinking the cool aid you schumucks.oh and one day there will be a reckoning and on that day you will beg for men like these to save you.Thats why this is all over the mainstream media, to help the kenyan in the whitehouse to help him cut the US marines, a fine body of men and women."

Arnie - your remarks are beneath contempt. Publish your full Met details and lets see what your senior officers make of your your racist, fascist rants.

Oh and ehat are YOU doing here on an internet pornography forum Arnie.

[arnie666]

Arnie wrote: "why do bedwetting liberals want to gut brave men,,brave men worth ten of me and you using the vermin running the media, when you apologise and whine about child murderers, rapists and woman beaters when they are punished?

Wall to wall internet pornography, drug addiction to mind altering legal and illegal drugs, encouraged by the liberal establishment, reality tv.yeah lets ruin men's lives, men who put their lives on the line for our country.because british serviceman aren't safe from the media scum and liberal establishment. Take me out to the ball game ,all of you are worms who do not stand with these men against the obamination and the media scum.

"Don't you see you thick idiots, obama wants to cut the us marines, why? Because they are far too white and hetrosexual for him and his racist metrosexual friends. Stop drinking the cool aid you schumucks.oh and one day there will be a reckoning and on that day you will beg for men like these to save you.Thats why this is all over the mainstream media, to help the kenyan in the whitehouse to help him cut the US marines, a fine body of men and women."

Arnie - your remarks are beneath contempt. Publish your full Met details and lets see what your senior officers make of your your racist, fascist rants.

Oh and ehat are YOU doing here on an internet pornography forum Arnie.

Touched a raw nerve have I? and the only fascist on this thread at the moment is you,although it is early days yet with all the looneys that post on here .You are probably racist as well.I despise your views but I don't really give a shit to be honest you are very much a minority in this country whether you realise it or not,and your numbers are getting smaller thanks to the failures of both political parties .That is why you start to make threats and use labels because you have to hide behind it.

I suspect if you had your way people like me would be herded into the camps for 're education'.Where we would have to listen to propoganda with a rifle stuck behind the ear .

You also haven't answered my question, number 4.

[arnie666]

Arnie - have you been to a warfront? I have. I have seen it close-up so I DO know what I'm talking about.

No I haven't but I deal with the concequenses of politicians sending young men into harms way now and again .Land fit for heroes? bollocks. I also work with one person closely who served in northern Ireland, that is why I have the opinions I do on this topic and they are right.

[russtafa]

No I haven't but I deal with the concequenses of politicians sending young men into harms way now and again .Land fit for heroes? bollocks. I also work with one person closely who served in northern Ireland, that is why I have the opinions I do on this topic and they are right.
these politicians use these young men like they were toilet paper and then shed crocodile tears when they come home in bags but mean while import the same scumbags our troops are fighting and have them abuse them if they return alive and the left backs these scumbag pieces of shit all the way and attend protests with these muslim dogs

[hippifried]

All is forgiven because we're the civilized savages. Besides, civilized behavior & the "rules of war" are only for the defeated, & then only if the winner can't be isolated from the rest of the world long enough.

Here we go with unreasonable expectations again. I don't understand why anyone would expect civilized behavior from a bunch of kids, barely out of high school, who's current chosen occupation is killing, maiming, & generally ruining the lives of other people. Despite the cradle to grave memetic propagandizing to the contrary, there's nothing glorious, honorable, or moral about war in any aspect or at any level of human participation. Bloodlust & assholish behavior is not the human norm. These guys wouldn't even be marines if they weren't a couple tacos light of a combination plate to start with. Oh, is that politically incorrect? Too bad. Get over it. I don't do hero worship, & I just don't buy the bullshit that military adventurism is the reason I can speak my mind.

Is something going to happen to these particular marines? I don't know & I don't care. The only thing anybody seems to be pissed off about is that they were stupid enough to get caught. Nobody wants to know what's actually going on. Reality gets in the way of all that good whining from all sides & political bents. So much more convenient to just ignorantly claim victimhood as an excuse to be assholes.

[russtafa]

All is forgiven because we're the civilized savages. Besides, civilized behavior & the "rules of war" are only for the defeated, & then only if the winner can't be isolated from the rest of the world long enough.

Here we go with unreasonable expectations again. I don't understand why anyone would expect civilized behavior from a bunch of kids, barely out of high school, who's current chosen occupation is killing, maiming, & generally ruining the lives of other people. Despite the cradle to grave memetic propagandizing to the contrary, there's nothing glorious, honorable, or moral about war in any aspect or at any level of human participation. Bloodlust & assholish behavior is not the human norm. These guys wouldn't even be marines if they weren't a couple tacos light of a combination plate to start with. Oh, is that politically incorrect? Too bad. Get over it. I don't do hero worship, & I just don't buy the bullshit that military adventurism is the reason I can speak my mind.

Is something going to happen to these particular marines? I don't know & I don't care. The only thing anybody seems to be pissed off about is that they were stupid enough to get caught. Nobody wants to know what's actually going on. Reality gets in the way of all that good whining from all sides & political bents. So much more convenient to just ignorantly claim victimhood as an excuse to be assholes.these young guys were sent by our governments to kill and then they are told to be little gentlemen and when they fuck up in extra ordinary circumstances that you or me would freak out in.fuck off! you expect too much of young guys that could die at any time

[trish]

I had an uncle and I have a cousin (the uncle's son) who were both U.S. Marines. I love 'em both. I won't make any judgments about the Marines in general, but those two were and are definitely short on tacos, God love 'em they're dumb.

[Prospero]

I would not cast aspersions on the US Marines either. I am sure most of damn fine and brave young men. The ones that I met were. Which makes the deviant and stupid behaviour of a handful even more astonishing.

[Dino Velvet]

All is forgiven because we're the civilized savages. Besides, civilized behavior & the "rules of war" are only for the defeated, & then only if the winner can't be isolated from the rest of the world long enough.

Here we go with unreasonable expectations again. I don't understand why anyone would expect civilized behavior from a bunch of kids, barely out of high school, who's current chosen occupation is killing, maiming, & generally ruining the lives of other people. Despite the cradle to grave memetic propagandizing to the contrary, there's nothing glorious, honorable, or moral about war in any aspect or at any level of human participation. Bloodlust & assholish behavior is not the human norm. These guys wouldn't even be marines if they weren't a couple tacos light of a combination plate to start with. Oh, is that politically incorrect? Too bad. Get over it. I don't do hero worship, & I just don't buy the bullshit that military adventurism is the reason I can speak my mind.

Is something going to happen to these particular marines? I don't know & I don't care. The only thing anybody seems to be pissed off about is that they were stupid enough to get caught. Nobody wants to know what's actually going on. Reality gets in the way of all that good whining from all sides & political bents. So much more convenient to just ignorantly claim victimhood as an excuse to be assholes.

Now we know how you really feel about the United States Marines, Hippi. Not judging your opinion, just identifying and magnifying it.

[trish]

I don't understand why anyone would expect civilized behavior from a bunch of kids, barely out of high school, who's current chosen occupation is killing, maiming, & generally ruining the lives of other people. Despite the cradle to grave memetic propagandizing to the contrary, there's nothing glorious, honorable, or moral about war in any aspect or at any level of human participation. Back to no magnification but narrowing the field of focus.

[Dino Velvet]

I usually prefer the whole movie over just the trailer especially on a big screen.

[trish]

You never hear them say "The popcorn of truth", instead it's always "The kernel of truth".

[russtafa]

Great to see some folks would love to nail these boys to the wall for a small infraction and remember these terrorist were already dead.Remember the reason America is in Afganistan in the first place is because of the Twin Towers not because these muslim dogs are so innocent

[Dino Velvet]

You never hear them say "The popcorn of truth", instead it's always "The kernel of truth".

Kernel, Popcorn. You're making me hungry. Pass the butter and bourbon please. The movie is about to begin.

[Stavros]

Great to see some folks would love to nail these boys to the wall for a small infraction and remember these terrorist were already dead.Remember the reason America is in Afganistan in the first place is because of the Twin Towers not because these muslim dogs are so innocent

You are obviously confused about the NATO campaign -the Taliban were not responsible for 9/11, al-Qaeda was. You might recall after the 'triumph' of allied bombing in late 2001 and early 2002 which ended the Taliban rule of Afghanistan and shattered al-Qaeda in Afghanistan forcing bin Laden, al_Zawahiri and others to flee, the US, the UK and their allies abandoned Afghanistan to the warlords.

The Taliban are not terrorists, they are fighting to free their country from foreign occupation -the foreign troops from the very same countries who crowed about their victory ten years ago. And when you have stopped shedding tears for all those young lads (and lasses) who have been killed or injured there, are you going to give much thought to the 30-40-50 year old officers who 'control' them? Innocents abroad? Not really. Presumably if this was 1980 and you were living in London you would be advocating the mass slaughter of 'Irish dogs' -??

[hippifried]

these young guys were sent by our governments to kill and then they are told to be little gentlemen and when they fuck up in extra ordinary circumstances that you or me would freak out in.fuck off! you expect too much of young guys that could die at any time
My... You really are confused. Couldn't bother to read what's there huh? Just grabbed hold of the last 2 sentences & decided to live up to my assessment of whiners who like to prerend to be be some kind of gumbah tough guys?

They weren't "sent". We've been in Afghanistan since these guys were in grade school. They went out of their way to get into those "extraordinary circumstances" that freak you out so bad. Fuck off yourself. The whole point of my post was that I don't expect anything other than what happened. Barbaric behavior isn't just condoned in the "civilized world". It's promoted & called "gentlemanly". Like I said: "Civilized Savages".

[russtafa]

You are obviously confused about the NATO campaign -the Taliban were not responsible for 9/11, al-Qaeda was. You might recall after the 'triumph' of allied bombing in late 2001 and early 2002 which ended the Taliban rule of Afghanistan and shattered al-Qaeda in Afghanistan forcing bin Laden, al_Zawahiri and others to flee, the US, the UK and their allies abandoned Afghanistan to the warlords.

The Taliban are not terrorists, they are fighting to free their country from foreign occupation -the foreign troops from the very same countries who crowed about their victory ten years ago. And when you have stopped shedding tears for all those young lads (and lasses) who have been killed or injured there, are you going to give much thought to the 30-40-50 year old officers who 'control' them? Innocents abroad? Not really. Presumably if this was 1980 and you were living in London you would be advocating the mass slaughter of 'Irish dogs' -??you have just stated the biggest load of crap the Taliban aided Al-Qaeda and they the Taliban still control large parts Afganistan .i don't care about the Irish they are Christian.

[Stavros]

The Taliban may have given al-Qaeda licence to operate in Afghanistan, but that is not the same as being part of the 9/11 operation, even part of the leadership of al-Qaeda at the time didn't know and also, did not approve of the operation and left the group because of that. The 'Arabi' as local people referred to al-Qaeda and many of the foreign Mujahideen who stayed behind after the USSR left, were hated and there was evidence that even Mullah Omar was responding to pressure to throw bin Laden out of the country. The Taliban was nurtured in Pakistan but it is mostly Afghan and they don't control large parts of Afghanistan, there are approximately 25,000 of them -making them impossible to defeat militarily. Because they present themselves in rural areas as champions of local issues, where the officials locally and nationally are corrupt, they have more support than they deserve -the real issue here is why the central government that has been in receipt of staggering sums of money, has failed in all of its obectives, which is why NATO forces are still there.

As for the Irish, you are obviously unaware of the extent of anti-Irtish feeling that developed in the UK in the 1970s and 1980s, every bit as bad as the things you have said about Muslims. But you pick and choose your villains anyway.

[Prospero]

Stavros...."Tis we, who lost in stormy visions, keep
With phantoms an unprofitable strife."

[russtafa]

The Taliban may have given al-Qaeda licence to operate in Afghanistan, but that is not the same as being part of the 9/11 operation, even part of the leadership of al-Qaeda at the time didn't know and also, did not approve of the operation and left the group because of that. The 'Arabi' as local people referred to al-Qaeda and many of the foreign Mujahideen who stayed behind after the USSR left, were hated and there was evidence that even Mullah Omar was responding to pressure to throw bin Laden out of the country. The Taliban was nurtured in Pakistan but it is mostly Afghan and they don't control large parts of Afghanistan, there are approximately 25,000 of them -making them impossible to defeat militarily. Because they present themselves in rural areas as champions of local issues, where the officials locally and nationally are corrupt, they have more support than they deserve -the real issue here is why the central government that has been in receipt of staggering sums of money, has failed in all of its obectives, which is why NATO forces are still there.

As for the Irish, you are obviously unaware of the extent of anti-Irtish feeling that developed in the UK in the 1970s and 1980s, every bit as bad as the things you have said about Muslims. But you pick and choose your villains anyway.
Lots of Irish in Australia and we have no problem with them but Arabs and Muslims are not liked in Australia.I thought that troops should never been put in that filthy pace called Afghanistan just keep bombing the fuck out of the rate hole .i know you and your fellow Brits love the vile muslims and you want more of them you can have ours if you want? we don't want them!

[robertlouis]

Stavros...."Tis we, who lost in stormy visions, keep
With phantoms an unprofitable strife."

:iagree: Or, more succinctly, a pearls and swine scenario...... :geek:

[russtafa]

i know Britian is an islamic country and you have sharia law so i reckon you would love to have our drive by ,drug dealing towel heads by the boatload .when should we start sending them?oh ours don't like working so they will all expect the dole and firearms plus a chem lab so you lot better get working

[Prospero]

So droll Russtafa

[Stavros]

i know Britian is an islamic country and you have sharia law so i reckon you would love to have our drive by ,drug dealing towel heads by the boatload .when should we start sending them?oh ours don't like working so they will all expect the dole and firearms plus a chem lab so you lot better get working

I think you have not understood the point I was trying to make. In the 1970s and 1980s the Provisional IRA bombed London and other cities many more times than we have been bombed by extremist Muslims, and the Irish were collectively abused by many people because of that, if you were as old as me its a case of having heard it all before.

Look at it this way, in the 1880s there was, in some people's minds, the idea that Italian immigrants were 'coming over here' -as indeed they were- and that they were bringing with them crime and disease. A medical journal called The Lancet even published a scurrilous article on the concentration of Italians in the Holborn area (near our Kings Cross) but when the London County Council Medical Officer wrote a report, he noted that Italian homes were the cleanest in that area of low-quality overcrowded buildings, compared to Irish and English homes; that there were less incidences of disease, and that the so-called crime was Italian men arguing over card games but getting arrested because of needlessly excessive policing (sound familiar?).

Twenty years later there was, in some people's minds, the idea that Jews from Russia, Lithuania, Latvia, Poland all wearing fancy dress and weird haircuts were flooding into London and bringing crime and disease...one of the things that the Orthodox Jewish communities established in the UK was the Beth Din, the Jewish court which provides authentic certificates for Kosher butchers and bakers, and that issues the Get which is the formal religious acknowledgement of Divorce, and many women bitterly complain that they can get divorced in an English court but if the Beth Din declines to give it, they cannot remarry -and these are observant Jews for whom the religious edict is crucial. Physically too, there is now an Eruv in an area of North-West London which demarcates the area in which observant Jews are not allowed to drive a car on the Sabbath, and so on; there are wires and things on telegraph poles so that Jews can tell where they are.

So yes, as with Jewish law, there is a similar version of Shari'a law which provides Muslims with a religious version of divorce; there are Imams who offer advice, or fatwa just as Catholics go to Confession, and devout Buddhists can seek out a monk for guidance on an issue the Law of England cannot deal with. It is all part of living in a multi-cultural society in which we tolerate a variety of religions, it is not part of the price we pay for freedom, an unacceptable cost, it is a benefit. It is one of the reasons why people want to live in this country.


Muslims make up barely 5% of the population of the UK, Islam is the second biggest religion after Christianity, yet :
A 2009 survey of the attitudes of British Muslims found them to identify more strongly with the UK than the rest of the population, with a much higher regard for the country's institutions, and to be more tolerant towards people of other religions. However, the vast majority of them have strongly conservative views on moral issues such as homosexuality and extra-marital sex, both differing dramatically from those held by the rest of the British population.

I suggest that your depiction of the Muslims in Britain is, shall we say, ill-informed.

[russtafa]

I think you have not understood the point I was trying to make. In the 1970s and 1980s the Provisional IRA bombed London and other cities many more times than we have been bombed by extremist Muslims, and the Irish were collectively abused by many people because of that, if you were as old as me its a case of having heard it all before.

Look at it this way, in the 1880s there was, in some people's minds, the idea that Italian immigrants were 'coming over here' -as indeed they were- and that they were bringing with them crime and disease. A medical journal called The Lancet even published a scurrilous article on the concentration of Italians in the Holborn area (near our Kings Cross) but when the London County Council Medical Officer wrote a report, he noted that Italian homes were the cleanest in that area of low-quality overcrowded buildings, compared to Irish and English homes; that there were less incidences of disease, and that the so-called crime was Italian men arguing over card but getting arrested because of needlessly excessive policing (sound familiar?).

Twenty years later there was, in some people's minds, the idea that Jews from Russia, Lithuania, Latvia, Poland all wearing fancy dress and weird haircuts were flooding into London and bringing crime and disease...one of the things that the Orthodox Jewish communities established in the UK was the Beth Din, the Jewish court which provides authentic certificates for Kosher butchers and bakers, and that issues the Get which is the formal religious acknowledgement of Divorce, and many women bitterly complain that they can get divorced in an English court but if the Beth Din declines to give it, they cannot remarry -and these are observant Jews for whom the religious edict is crucial. Physically too, there is now an Eruv in an area of North-West London which demarcates the area in which observant Jews are not allowed to drive a car on the Sabbath, and so on; there are wires and things on telegraph poles so that Jews can tell where they are.

So yes, as with Jewish law, there is a similar version of Shari'a law which provides Muslims with a religious version of divorce; there are Imams who offer advice, or fatwa just as Catholics go to Confession, and devout Buddhists can seek out a monk for guidance on an issue the Law of England cannot deal with. It is all part of living in a multi-cultural society in which we tolerate a variety of religions, it is not part of the price we pay for freedom, an unacceptable cost, it is a benefit. It is one of the reasons why people want to live in this country.


Muslims make up barely 5% of the population of the UK, Islam is the second biggest religion after Christianity, yet :
A 2009 survey of the attitudes of British Muslims found them to identify more strongly with the UK than the rest of the population, with a much higher regard for the country's institutions, and to be more tolerant towards people of other religions. However, the vast majority of them have strongly conservative views on moral issues such as homosexuality and extra-marital sex, both differing dramatically from those held by the rest of the British population.

I suggest that your depiction of the Muslims in Britain is, shall we say, ill-informed.yeah and if you want to cop that shit it's up to you poms but i reckon FUCK THAT FOR A JOKE.But the average Aussie now thinks of Britain as a fucking right off,not that we can talk with our bloody useless politicians doing their best to fuck this great country of ours with these lebo/bike gangs and these boaties on the state housing

[Prospero]

lol... a morlock writes

[Stavros]

yeah and if you want to cop that shit it's up to you poms but i reckon FUCK THAT FOR A JOKE.

I genuinely dont understand what you are saying; maybe its best to pass on this and move on to the tennis -oh, no, its in Melbourne...cue spittle and rage from Russtafa....

[hippifried]

I suggest that your depiction of the Muslims in Britain is, shall we say, ill-informed.

Really? You're talking to Rustaffa. More like:
I suggest that your depiction of ___(enter almost anything here)___ is, shall we say, ill-informed.

[trish]

You guys! You're forgetting that down-under they write up-side-down. If you turn over his post russtafa says, "There is no God but Allah and his prophet is Mohammad." Either that or, "John is dead, John is dead, John is dead."

[Fancy fancy]

If it wasn't for Sharia law, I believe a proportion of trannys entering Australia would stay at home. I also think the average aussie is irrelevant.





yeah and if you want to cop that shit it's up to you poms but i reckon FUCK THAT FOR A JOKE.But the average Aussie now thinks of Britain as a fucking right off,not that we can talk with our bloody useless politicians doing their best to fuck this great country of ours with these lebo/bike gangs and these boaties on the state housing

[onmyknees]

I actually don't know what Prospero or Stavro's intent or point here is......or if they even have one. They obviously don't understand the brutality or emotion of war, but most people don't. So to avoid any future pissing contests, here is how our military should handle all future contacts with the Taliban or al Qaeda. Thank Christ they're not company commanders responsible for the lives of their platoons.
WZippers: Diggers meet Hellfire - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14_g5vW6fek&feature=player_embedded)

Poof...Three less Taliban we don't have to worry about disrespecting.

[russtafa]

to answer Trish,Stavros ,Hippie i don't understand why you people don't go and live with your muslim friends and take up a good trade with your buddies like explosives if you love them so much

[trish]

We do go on and live with our Muslim friends, at least I do. They number among my colleagues, my friends, my neighbors. We don't do much trade in explosives around here though. Most people here just work in factories, farms, stores, offices etc. If you got out and talked amicably with people, you might discover they're not so frightening. Maybe you would find your hate is not at all well-grounded. Did you ever wonder what your signature "live with honour" means?

[russtafa]

good for you Trish i suppose they are great people that's what the Christians say in Egypt or in Iraq that the muslims make such great neighbours but i think i will skip their hospitality

[trish]

Minorities usually have plenty of legitimate complaints no matter what their religion and where they are located. People are people. Something you'll learn when you grow up.

[russtafa]

Minorities usually have plenty of legitimate complaints no matter what their religion and where they are located. People are people. Something you'll learn when you grow up.
i have grown up and i worked on the door for many years and saw the worst of people especially muslims if you want to suck their cocks that's your problem but i and the majority of Australians want nothing to do with them and i suspect most right thinking Americans would say the same as for the Brits well that place is fucked and over run with dirty muslims and the average Brit has no say in the running of their country

[trish]

i have grown up...Really? I thought I was talking to a twelve year old. But congratulations on having grown up completely intolerant of your Muslim fellows.

[russtafa]

seen more than you lady been in more nasty situations and i thought i was talking to the village idiot or someone that's very naive or just does not want to see.

[Prospero]

Name calling and sheer petty insults are pointless and not worth engaging with.
But I will respond to OnMyKnees and his question regarding what my intent or point is here.

First I regret that I posted the TWO images together that started this thread. One was a joke - the Walmart image. The other was not. I have removed the Walmart image.

What I am talking about is the widening gulf between the face we present to the world - the argument that we are civilised in the West, that our values are somehow more noble, that our enemies are savage" or worse and that we are defending western values and the looming reality - be it the holding of people for 10 years now without trial, without recourse to lawyers, without justification because we suspect they might be enemy combatants, I am talking about disresepcting our enemy as illustrated by this picture, but also in plaves like Bagrham and worse, I am talking about bad behaviour in the field of combat. I am talking about the gleeful attitudes of those sitting in the comfort of bukners as they play kill farmers and others in Afghanistan because, sometimes, the enemy mingle with them. Yes we have to kill people. Yes war is fucking horrible (and as i said in response to Arnie i do not talk here from a position of ignorance about what happens in the theatre of war. I have been with US and Afghan special forces in Helmand. I have seen the bravery of most - and the reality of living with terror and imminent death) There are atrocities on both sides. The army grooms men to kill and war makes monsters of them - or brings out what is already there, But we present ourselves as the side with right. And we constantly undermine that.

As for the ignorant hatred of some people posting here. It is beneath contempt.

Dino I totally and utterly condemn Assad's behaviour in Syria. He like his father before him are monsters But we need to have high standards when we call out others for their crimes.

[hippifried]

to answer Trish,Stavros ,Hippie i don't understand why you people don't go and live with your muslim friends and take up a good trade with your buddies like explosives if you love them so much
Oh I don't care about Muslims any more than I care about inbred upside-downers. Of course I'm not scared of them either, because I'm not a cowardly punk like you & most of the rest of the loudmouthed internet pseudo tough guys, who just wish they had the intellect, intestinal fortitude, & physical prowess of Barney Fife.

[Prospero]

Who is Barney Fife?

[hippifried]

Who is Barney Fife?
He was a character on the Andy Griffith show (1960 - 1968, played by Don Knotts. Sorry. Sometimes I forget that so much of the rest of the world is culturally deprived by a lack of Americana.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=Zo10xdN2Rds&feature=endscreen

Oh & BTW: The kid, Opie, is played by now movie mogul & former star of Happy Days, Ron Howard.


I have no idea why the clip won't embed. Oh well.

[russtafa]

Oh I don't care about Muslims any more than I care about inbred upside-downers. Of course I'm not scared of them either, because I'm not a cowardly punk like you & most of the rest of the loudmouthed internet pseudo tough guys, who just wish they had the intellect, intestinal fortitude, & physical prowess of Barney Fife.is that right mr hippie i think i have been in situations that would have you running for your momma and i think a lot of the guys that say they have done things on this site are probably tough ,why lie?As for you blokes that expect young guys in their twenties to behave like perfect gentlemen in the worst conditions,you have got to be kidding.Hippies were the worst cowards out in the sixties running from the draft and then jeering at the returning troops,they were fucking shit

[Stavros]

I actually don't know what Prospero or Stavro's intent or point here is......or if they even have one. They obviously don't understand the brutality or emotion of war, but most people don't. So to avoid any future pissing contests, here is how our military should handle all future contacts with the Taliban or al Qaeda. Thank Christ they're not company commanders responsible for the lives of their platoons.

If you don't understand it is because you don't want to, I have tried to direct your attention to the core issue, but you ignore it because it focuses on the issue that hurts the most: the cause.

I have no problem with the occasional heroism and bravery of armed service personnel in the field, its their job and sometimes they 'go the extra mile' for their comrades, but far from being eager to get stuck in like you, seasoned military professionals do not seek armed conflict- Colin Powell, who knows more about it than you do, once said it was his duty to prevent the USA from deploying troops in a theatre of war, precisely because of the things that can happen - and you should not send troops into a theatre of war without knowing how you are going to get them out. Surely even you can see what a mess the US military has been in since it was hi-jacked by the Republican Party?

But my key point is: WHY ARE THEY THERE? You never concern yourself with the core issue, because the truth is NATO need not be in Afghanistan at all, if anything NATO forces are an obstacle to the deal that will eventually be done with the Taliban, and which has to be done with the Taliiban if there is to be a workable peace, just as there has to be a resolution to the conflict between India and Pakistan over Kashmir because Afghanistan is caught between the ambitions of these two countries as well as having its own problem creating stability and peace, but you either don't know what these issues are, or you are so focused on the so-called theatre of war you can't see the writing on the wall.

Your wilful ignorance of the politics is what makes your posts resemble the soundtrack to Rambo -and it is all about Politics: just as Clausewitz said that war is the continuation of diplomacy by other means, it also means that wars happen when politics fails, and wars end when politics re-asserts itself. There are serious issues on the table, some of them historical, some of them socio-economic, all have political resonance -and a lot of it is boring, but patient diplomacy that yields results works -two Democrat Presidents, Carter and Clinton, presided over two peace treaties -not two wars, peace treaties- between Israel and the Palestinians; Bush I and Bush II produced nothing comparable, but Bush I trashed Iraq, looked the other way while an enraged Saddam Hussein -the USA's ally for so many years- drained the southern Marshes, slaughtered the Shi'a and attempted to obliterate Iraqi Kurdistan, and then Bush II moved in to turn Iraq into a slaughterhouse -make the comparison: diplomacy, endless rounds of talks and talks and papers: or war, and then ask: which one works? Which one produces a desired result?

If all you want to do is kill people, don't be surprised if their descendants come to kill you -or you could just wake up one day and say, as do most soldiers: Enough! Then its time to talk.

Peace is the only option, but often the hardest option, it is easier for you to go Poof! when a Taliban gets killed, than it is to shake his hand, invite him for a coffee, and ask him what it is that he really wants.

Consider Daw Aung san suu Kyi, an exemplary political leader who has the right to be embittered and seek the destruction of the military who have ruined Burma -but who, instead of opting for violence, works tirelessly for a peaceful solution to the problems Burma has. Nelson Mandela could have led an armed conflict in South Africa -he chose peace and reconciliation. Again and again, war is exposed as the problem not the solution; peace and peaceful co-existence the only way in which to live, but it takes courage, and that is what is lacking in too much of contemporary politics. For heaven's sake, you can't even talk to Cuba! Is it really so difficult?

[russtafa]

we should never be in these shit holes and the occupants of these shit holes should NEVER be allowed to live with us but our politicians want these scumbags brought over to torment the decent hard working people .lets face it most of these politicians were a product of the sixties with very left wing tendencies and a deep hatred of police and the working people ,veterans of wars fought to protect its people

[Yvonne183]

Peace is the only option, but often the hardest option, it is easier for you to go Poof! when a Taliban gets killed, than it is to shake his hand, invite him for a coffee, and ask him what it is that he really wants.

Let's take the above statement and replace the word Taliban with the word Nazi.

Peace is the only option, but often the hardest option, it is easier for you to go Poof! when a Nazi gets killed, than it is to shake his hand, invite him for a coffee, and ask him what it is that he really wants. Does that sound silly to you as it does to me?

But hey, I do agree with ya. I don't think war is ever the answer. If I lived during WWll I would have said that the US should never have gone to war in Europe, let them kill each other, I don't care. I agree, the Brits and French should never have sent planes to attck in Lybia, they should have just talked instead. I agree, the Brits were 100% wrong in sending troops to that piece of rock in the south Atlantic, the Brits should have talked instead of fighting. And according to the Monroe doctrine, the US should have backed Argentina in that dispute.

I agree, Spain should not fight with the basque separatists, they should only talk with them instead. I agree, we should never have sent troops to Bosnia/Serbia/Kosovo, talking should be the way to go. I agree, France and Britain should stop sending troops to Africa every time there is trouble there, why don't we just talk to the people there?
I agree, neo nazis in germany should have the right to be a political force without being arrested for their ideas. Why don't Europeans just talk to the neo nazis and see what it is they really want?

But I do really agree with this. I agree that NATO should be disbanded. I believe the US should get out of NATO and return all troops, planes and missiles from Europe, I totally agree with that, the sooner the better. Maybe then when Europe throws another sissy fit and fights each other, when one man is the victor, say a Hitler type, then we can talk to him alone and see what he wants.

Funny thing,, you people say we should talk with people like Cuba and the Taliban yet most of you lot won't even recognize to talk with the tea party people cause you think they are so evil. I mean, you guys in Europe put sanctions on Austria cause the people of Austria had the nerve to elect a right wing person as their leader. This thread is filled with such left wing European garbage. For you Europeans, clean your own yard before you comment on what is wrong in the US, don't forget., it was you guys that gave us the two most destructive wars in history, it was you guys that were the main pillagers of Africa and other colonies. You have to wait a few hundred years before you are allowed to take the moral high ground in any debates about the US.
PS, And anyway, the Brits have been by our side in almost every venture in the world. If you want to stop wars, then tell your own govt's to stop sending your troops around the world, maybe then you can tell us. Otherwise keep eating your cheese and crumpets and stay out of US policy.

[Yvonne183]

Here's another embarrassing picture, and to think, you Brits bow down your heads to these guys. You Brits are fools.

Hey, let's also not forget who these guys were that got peed on. These are the guys that bomb and burn schools that want to educate little girls. These are the same guys that would be head everyone on this forum for living as life they don't approve of. I mean, you lot talk about the religious right in the US as evil yet these guys are evil ten fold in comparison and yet, you ask that we should talk to them. and see what it is they want. Are you guys completely insane? Do you guys when walking down the street and are confronted by let's say a group of nazi skinheads, as they beat you up for being a tgirl or being with a tgirl, do you try and talk to them or do you try and defend yourself? I gotta admit, I truly believe that some of you live deep in a closet with very little contact with the real world. Sometimes violence is the answer, it is if you want to live and see another day. Talking ain't gonna do shit.


http://fringe.devhub.com/img/upload//prince_harry_nazi.jpg

[trish]

I didn't see anyone here defending the dead Taliban who were picked off by the American snipers. I do think that pissing on them after they were already killed and then uploading to the internet isn't in our own best interests; i.e. pissing on dead Taliban in front of the whole world is counter to our mission of stabilizing a faltering government so we can get the fuck out. Anyone who gets in the way of that mission is endangering more NATO soldiers and should be dealt with appropriately.

[trish]

If you don't understand it is because you don't want to, I have tried to direct your attention to the core issue, but you ignore it because it focuses on the issue that hurts the most: the cause.

I have no problem with the occasional heroism and bravery of armed service personnel in the field, its their job and sometimes they 'go the extra mile' for their comrades, but far from being eager to get stuck in like you, seasoned military professionals do not seek armed conflict- Colin Powell, who knows more about it than you do, once said it was his duty to prevent the USA from deploying troops in a theatre of war, precisely because of the things that can happen - and you should not send troops into a theatre of war without knowing how you are going to get them out. Surely even you can see what a mess the US military has been in since it was hi-jacked by the Republican Party?

But my key point is: WHY ARE THEY THERE? You never concern yourself with the core issue, because the truth is NATO need not be in Afghanistan at all, if anything NATO forces are an obstacle to the deal that will eventually be done with the Taliban, and which has to be done with the Taliiban if there is to be a workable peace, just as there has to be a resolution to the conflict between India and Pakistan over Kashmir because Afghanistan is caught between the ambitions of these two countries as well as having its own problem creating stability and peace, but you either don't know what these issues are, or you are so focused on the so-called theatre of war you can't see the writing on the wall.

Your wilful ignorance of the politics is what makes your posts resemble the soundtrack to Rambo -and it is all about Politics: just as Clausewitz said that war is the continuation of diplomacy by other means, it also means that wars happen when politics fails, and wars end when politics re-asserts itself. There are serious issues on the table, some of them historical, some of them socio-economic, all have political resonance -and a lot of it is boring, but patient diplomacy that yields results works -two Democrat Presidents, Carter and Clinton, presided over two peace treaties -not two wars, peace treaties- between Israel and the Palestinians; Bush I and Bush II produced nothing comparable, but Bush I trashed Iraq, looked the other way while an enraged Saddam Hussein -the USA's ally for so many years- drained the southern Marshes, slaughtered the Shi'a and attempted to obliterate Iraqi Kurdistan, and then Bush II moved in to turn Iraq into a slaughterhouse -make the comparison: diplomacy, endless rounds of talks and talks and papers: or war, and then ask: which one works? Which one produces a desired result?

If all you want to do is kill people, don't be surprised if their descendants come to kill you -or you could just wake up one day and say, as do most soldiers: Enough! Then its time to talk.

Peace is the only option, but often the hardest option, it is easier for you to go Poof! when a Taliban gets killed, than it is to shake his hand, invite him for a coffee, and ask him what it is that he really wants.

Consider Daw Aung san suu Kyi, an exemplary political leader who has the right to be embittered and seek the destruction of the military who have ruined Burma -but who, instead of opting for violence, works tirelessly for a peaceful solution to the problems Burma has. Nelson Mandela could have led an armed conflict in South Africa -he chose peace and reconciliation. Again and again, war is exposed as the problem not the solution; peace and peaceful co-existence the only way in which to live, but it takes courage, and that is what is lacking in too much of contemporary politics. For heaven's sake, you can't even talk to Cuba! Is it really so difficult?:claps:claps:claps

[russtafa]

Peace is the only option, but often the hardest option, it is easier for you to go Poof! when a Taliban gets killed, than it is to shake his hand, invite him for a coffee, and ask him what it is that he really wants.

Let's take the above statement and replace the word Taliban with the word Nazi.

Peace is the only option, but often the hardest option, it is easier for you to go Poof! when a Nazi gets killed, than it is to shake his hand, invite him for a coffee, and ask him what it is that he really wants. Does that sound silly to you as it does to me?

But hey, I do agree with ya. I don't think war is ever the answer. If I lived during WWll I would have said that the US should never have gone to war in Europe, let them kill each other, I don't care. I agree, the Brits and French should never have sent planes to attck in Lybia, they should have just talked instead. I agree, the Brits were 100% wrong in sending troops to that piece of rock in the south Atlantic, the Brits should have talked instead of fighting. And according to the Monroe doctrine, the US should have backed Argentina in that dispute.

I agree, Spain should not fight with the basque separatists, they should only talk with them instead. I agree, we should never have sent troops to Bosnia/Serbia/Kosovo, talking should be the way to go. I agree, France and Britain should stop sending troops to Africa every time there is trouble there, why don't we just talk to the people there?
I agree, neo nazis in germany should have the right to be a political force without being arrested for their ideas. Why don't Europeans just talk to the neo nazis and see what it is they really want?

But I do really agree with this. I agree that NATO should be disbanded. I believe the US should get out of NATO and return all troops, planes and missiles from Europe, I totally agree with that, the sooner the better. Maybe then when Europe throws another sissy fit and fights each other, when one man is the victor, say a Hitler type, then we can talk to him alone and see what he wants.

Funny thing,, you people say we should talk with people like Cuba and the Taliban yet most of you lot won't even recognize to talk with the tea party people cause you think they are so evil. I mean, you guys in Europe put sanctions on Austria cause the people of Austria had the nerve to elect a right wing person as their leader. This thread is filled with such left wing European garbage. For you Europeans, clean your own yard before you comment on what is wrong in the US, don't forget., it was you guys that gave us the two most destructive wars in history, it was you guys that were the main pillagers of Africa and other colonies. You have to wait a few hundred years before you are allowed to take the moral high ground in any debates about the US.
PS, And anyway, the Brits have been by our side in almost every venture in the world. If you want to stop wars, then tell your own govt's to stop sending your troops around the world, maybe then you can tell us. Otherwise keep eating your cheese and crumpets and stay out of US policy.
FUCKING BEAUTIFUL :Bowdown:I love it.well hippie and co put that in your peace pipe and smoke it yah cats

[Dino Velvet]

we should never have sent troops to Bosnia/Serbia/Kosovo

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

[Stavros]

Peace is the only option, but often the hardest option, it is easier for you to go Poof! when a Taliban gets killed, than it is to shake his hand, invite him for a coffee, and ask him what it is that he really wants.

Let's take the above statement and replace the word Taliban with the word Nazi.

Peace is the only option, but often the hardest option, it is easier for you to go Poof! when a Nazi gets killed, than it is to shake his hand, invite him for a coffee, and ask him what it is that he really wants. Does that sound silly to you as it does to me?

But hey, I do agree with ya. I don't think war is ever the answer. If I lived during WWll I would have said that the US should never have gone to war in Europe, let them kill each other, I don't care. I agree, the Brits and French should never have sent planes to attck in Lybia, they should have just talked instead. I agree, the Brits were 100% wrong in sending troops to that piece of rock in the south Atlantic, the Brits should have talked instead of fighting. And according to the Monroe doctrine, the US should have backed Argentina in that dispute.

I agree, Spain should not fight with the basque separatists, they should only talk with them instead. I agree, we should never have sent troops to Bosnia/Serbia/Kosovo, talking should be the way to go. I agree, France and Britain should stop sending troops to Africa every time there is trouble there, why don't we just talk to the people there?
I agree, neo nazis in germany should have the right to be a political force without being arrested for their ideas. Why don't Europeans just talk to the neo nazis and see what it is they really want?

But I do really agree with this. I agree that NATO should be disbanded. I believe the US should get out of NATO and return all troops, planes and missiles from Europe, I totally agree with that, the sooner the better. Maybe then when Europe throws another sissy fit and fights each other, when one man is the victor, say a Hitler type, then we can talk to him alone and see what he wants.

Funny thing,, you people say we should talk with people like Cuba and the Taliban yet most of you lot won't even recognize to talk with the tea party people cause you think they are so evil. I mean, you guys in Europe put sanctions on Austria cause the people of Austria had the nerve to elect a right wing person as their leader. This thread is filled with such left wing European garbage. For you Europeans, clean your own yard before you comment on what is wrong in the US, don't forget., it was you guys that gave us the two most destructive wars in history, it was you guys that were the main pillagers of Africa and other colonies. You have to wait a few hundred years before you are allowed to take the moral high ground in any debates about the US.
PS, And anyway, the Brits have been by our side in almost every venture in the world. If you want to stop wars, then tell your own govt's to stop sending your troops around the world, maybe then you can tell us. Otherwise keep eating your cheese and crumpets and stay out of US policy.

You have mixed together a lot of conflicting issues, and I understand your frustration, and I can only represent myself, not this country, whose foreign policy for the last 30 odd years has been shameful.
But

a) Afghanistan is a NATO operation not just a US one, British forces are also there, so my policy complaint is levelled at NATO rather than solely at the USA; there is no moral high ground here, and anyway I have protested against my government's involvement in this war and all the others -including the Falklands- since the 1960s.

b) the replacement of Taliban with Nazi doesn't work: in the first place, the Taliban are fighting for their country against what they see as an invading force, they are a small group with some support in the country and they will inevitably have to be part of a peaceful solution in Afghanistan. The situation in Germany was quite different -the radical insistence of the French at Versailles to punish Germany financially, geographically and militarily stored up issues that were always going to be difficult to resolve once Germany was restored to peace; that the Germans themselves failed to deal with the growth of National Socialism does not mean that by 1939 'the Germans' were Nazi's; yes many were, but it isn't that simple, and I think you know that. Most of the German High Command were Nationalists but not Nazi's, General Halder in particular was passing vital information on to the British, completely different from Afghanistan, and as I am sure you know, after the war many ex-Nazi's were recruited by the Allies in the new Germany, many were recruited as 'stay-behinds' in East Germany to act as spies against the USSR -so, in effect, we didn't just offer them coffee, we employed them. I don't know precisely how many Germans or Austrians worked on the Bomb in the USA, I don't think the Taliban are going to be giving the US lessons on how to construct an IED in the near future.

Menachem Begin shook hands with Anwar Sadat, Yitzak Rabin with Arafat, two sets of implacable foes -it can be done, Yvonne, even if invisibly one or two or all four of them were pinching their noses -and their buttocks.

As for Prince Harry, please don't assume that because I am a citizen of this country or, as some prefer, a subject of Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth, that I bow my head to that particular lout, or indeed, to any of them. I respect Brenda as head of state, but that's as far as it goes. I would rather live in a republic.

In these times, we have options, I am confident that as far as South Asia goes, peace is the one option that has not been tried, that has not been pressed with enough vigour. Its not just about the shocking waste of money, it is about living people, whoever they are, and how to preserve them. I don't agree with the Taliban's anti-social social policy any more than you do -but then neither do most Afghans, and surely you would agree that once a person is dead, they should be buried with respect, whoever they are, and however modestly and quietly it is done.

[hippifried]

is that right mr hippie i think i have been in situations that would have you running for your momma and i think a lot of the guys that say they have done things on this site are probably tough ,why lie?As for you blokes that expect young guys in their twenties to behave like perfect gentlemen in the worst conditions,you have got to be kidding.Hippies were the worst cowards out in the sixties running from the draft and then jeering at the returning troops,they were fucking shit
Oh, okay. So you still haven't learned to read (or maybe it's just a comprehension problem) & you still don't know anything. You certainly don't know anything about me, & seem to be having all kinds of problems fitting me into your lame know-nothing stereotypes. Of course a rational person would probably take that as at least a minor clue that stereotypes are bogus, but I won't hold my breath waiting for you to become rational, or even an adult. Guaging by thye putrid chunks you constantly spew across the pages here, you don't seem to have a clue what's going on now. & by the above quote, you don't know what went on before either. Oh well. I guess that's what happens when somebody's too scared of the world & its inhabitants to go outside & check it out, or to try & talk to & get to know different people. That won't change as long as you stay locked in your room at mommy's, with the sole source of information coming from the blogisphere. You still haven't shown me anything that says you're not a punk. Why lie? Because it's the anonymous internet where non-descript weenies can put on their comic book alter-egos. It works with other punks & the terminally naive. Doesn't work with me though. I don't have those kind of personal problems.

[russtafa]

Oh, okay. So you still haven't learned to read (or maybe it's just a comprehension problem) & you still don't know anything. You certainly don't know anything about me, & seem to be having all kinds of problems fitting me into your lame know-nothing stereotypes. Of course a rational person would probably take that as at least a minor clue that stereotypes are bogus, but I won't hold my breath waiting for you to become rational, or even an adult. Guaging by thye putrid chunks you constantly spew across the pages here, you don't seem to have a clue what's going on now. & by the above quote, you don't know what went on before either. Oh well. I guess that's what happens when somebody's too scared of the world & its inhabitants to go outside & check it out, or to try & talk to & get to know different people. That won't change as long as you stay locked in your room at mommy's, with the sole source of information coming from the blogisphere. You still haven't shown me anything that says you're not a punk. Why lie? Because it's the anonymous internet where non-descript weenies can put on their comic book alter-egos. It works with other punks & the terminally naive. Doesn't work with me though. I don't have those kind of personal problems.
pot calling the kettle black,:dead:yah dumb hippie lol

[Ben]

Here's another embarrassing picture, and to think, you Brits bow down your heads to these guys. You Brits are fools.

Hey, let's also not forget who these guys were that got peed on. These are the guys that bomb and burn schools that want to educate little girls. These are the same guys that would be head everyone on this forum for living as life they don't approve of. I mean, you lot talk about the religious right in the US as evil yet these guys are evil ten fold in comparison and yet, you ask that we should talk to them. and see what it is they want. Are you guys completely insane? Do you guys when walking down the street and are confronted by let's say a group of nazi skinheads, as they beat you up for being a tgirl or being with a tgirl, do you try and talk to them or do you try and defend yourself? I gotta admit, I truly believe that some of you live deep in a closet with very little contact with the real world. Sometimes violence is the answer, it is if you want to live and see another day. Talking ain't gonna do shit.


http://fringe.devhub.com/img/upload//prince_harry_nazi.jpg

I'd be curious to know how many Brits support the Royal family.... I mean, we get our Head of State through voter lines. Whereas the Brits get their Head of State through bloodlines.... The whole thing is disgusting. I mean, the whole British class system is equally disgusting. (And, of course, it is bread and circuses. An old Roman concept of: give the people enough food and plenty of entertainment and they won't give a damn about politics. So true.)

Why Do 80% of Brits not care about the royal wedding? BECAUSE THEY ARE GERMAN EUGENICIST PARASITES - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qima8IZ2FVs)

Paxman: The royal wedding has virtually no significance except... - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7q_feXRA8yI)

[Prospero]

No lover of the royal family of jerks. And long ago we tamed these people. They are titular heads - not much more. And yes - that is an embarassing picture. Not quite in the league of soldiers urinating on the dead though.

[russtafa]

i do like the old tradition of the king fighting in the front of his troops

[russtafa]

No lover of the royal family of jerks. And long ago we tamed these people. They are titular heads - not much more. And yes - that is an embarassing picture. Not quite in the league of soldiers urinating on the dead though.if you don't like the troops urinating on the rag heads take their place and show them how it's done?

[Stavros]

i do like the old tradition of the king fighting in the front of his troops

You've been watching too many movies Russtafa, Kings with half a brain are usually on a horse on a hilltop far away watching the 'little platoons' getting speared, hammered and toasted, or maybe even winning. How long would any of them lasted if they were at the front? For the record, George II is said to have 'led' his troops- the battle of Dettingen in the War of the Austrian Succession,1743, but as far as I know having ridden the horse at the head of 'his men', he then quickly scarpered to safety to let the 'lads' do their work. The last king to die in battle was Richard III in 1485, and he was killed by other 'Englishmen' at the Battle of Bosworth Field during the Wars of the Roses, and let's just say that apart from all the myths, Richard III isn't considered the most shining example of monarchs in this country's glorious history.

[Stavros]

I'd be curious to know how many Brits support the Royal family.... I mean, we get our Head of State through voter lines. Whereas the Brits get their Head of State through bloodlines.... The whole thing is disgusting. I mean, the whole British class system is equally disgusting. (And, of course, it is bread and circuses. An old Roman concept of: give the people enough food and plenty of entertainment and they won't give a damn about politics. So true.)


In general the monarchy is popular, not sure how it breaks down for individual royals as they have had different 'careers' with matching press coverage good and bad. If its bad, the 'advisers' usually take control to clean up the image, give the offending royal a suitable charity to get involved in as penance, and hope the public 'warm' to them. As for the class system, if you detest it so much, then stop watching Downton Abbey!!
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/media/tv-radio/schama-fellowes-and-the-cultural-necrophilia-row-that-would-make-lady-grantham-grimace-6291113.html

[Prospero]

Ben.... a lot of people in the UK would be happy to see the monarchy disappear. But one argument for their retention is the tourist dollar all that pomp and circumstance brings in. Another is that without them we'd have all the potential corruption and political shennanigans around electing a president.

The Queen is generally rather popular I guess. And this year celebrates her diamond jubilee.

Prince Charles, heir to the throne is less popular and certainly his ratings plummetted after he and Princess Diana split up.

His sister, Anne is thought to be sensible and is respected as a hard worker but not particularly likeable. Andrew and edward are thought to be buffoons.

Jump a generation and it seems the public have now fallen in love with Prince William and his new wife Catherine. His brother on the other hand - in the icture posted by Yvonne - is thought to be a fool.

It's all fantasy stuff really. A distraction from all the bad news around.

This week the Tory Party has proposed the british taxpayer pay for the Queen to have a new yacht for her diamond jubilee. The idea has got a very mixed reception.

[russtafa]

You've been watching too many movies Russtafa, Kings with half a brain are usually on a horse on a hilltop far away watching the 'little platoons' getting speared, hammered and toasted, or maybe even winning. How long would any of them lasted if they were at the front? For the record, George II is said to have 'led' his troops- the battle of Dettingen in the War of the Austrian Succession,1743, but as far as I know having ridden the horse at the head of 'his men', he then quickly scarpered to safety to let the 'lads' do their work. The last king to die in battle was Richard III in 1485, and he was killed by other 'Englishmen' at the Battle of Bosworth Field during the Wars of the Roses, and let's just say that apart from all the myths, Richard III isn't considered the most shining example of monarchs in this country's glorious history.i think it must be part of the requirements for being King or Prime minister or President that if war is declared they go first :dancing: