Calling All TS PORNSTARS Join Freeones board!

[MrsKellyPierce]

They are trying to grow our section!

[saifan]

I used to post there a lot. Surprisingly the user base is very "T" friendly.

[MrsKellyPierce]

Yeah it is and they finally made a section for us :)

Wendy and I are on there and they made us both OCMS and they said they might do a competition for Ts if it gets more popular - how cool would that be!

[tsmandy]

I just looked at it and found out a girl I shot with hung herself the day after my birthday last year. Fucking hell.

[Dino Velvet]

I used to post there a lot. Surprisingly the user base is very "T" friendly.

They weren't to me. Kept screaming "Ban!" at me over and over. Mods strike me as overly sensitive too giving me 2 temp bans already. I never fight and hardly even use the "F Word".

[BellaBellucci]

They weren't to me. Kept screaming "Ban!" at me over and over. Mods strike me as overly sensitive too giving me 2 temp bans already. I never fight and hardly even use the "F Word".

And moreover, isn't it kinda in bad taste to come here and promote another forum? A content site, sure, even a social network, particularly if it's owned by a content producer, but a straight up forum complete with someone else's affiliate banners? :?

~BB~

[Wendy Summers]

They weren't to me. Kept screaming "Ban!" at me over and over. Mods strike me as overly sensitive too giving me 2 temp bans already. I never fight and hardly even use the "F Word".

Your self restraint is astonishing :p

[Dino Velvet]

Your self restraint is astonishing :p

I'm a pretty nice guy, just a little disgusting.

[MrsKellyPierce]

Oh Bella - it's for TS pornstars so we can get more mainstream - if you were smart you'd join

[Steve-Oh]

I haven't been there lately but don't remember there being a large "T" audience. And yes, they are very sensitive there. They're also very afraid of copyright trouble. It's hard to post any pics.

I'm Steve-Oh there, just like on other boards. I'll drop in and say Hi (if I can remember my pwd.).

[BellaBellucci]

Oh Bella - it's for TS pornstars so we can get more mainstream - if you were smart you'd join

I guess I'm not smart then. :geek:

Actually, no, wait. I already have an account there. Damn. I wanted to mess with you a bit. :lol:

~BB~

[Richctdude]

i'llhave to check it out

[lisaparadise]

Oh Bella - it's for TS pornstars so we can get more mainstream - if you were smart you'd joinif your worried about getting accepted into the mainstream then porn isnt a very classy way of doing it.mainstream is for real tgirls with real everyday jobs in the real world porn is the last thing i want people to know.

[BellaBellucci]

if your worried about getting accepted into the mainstream then porn isnt a very classy way of doing it.mainstream is for real tgirls with real everyday jobs in the real world porn is the last thing i want people to know.

I think she means that she'd liked to mainstream TS porn within the rest of porndom. I don't think she's implying that anyone is going to get a sitcom out of this. :lol:

~BB~

[lisaparadise]

I think she means that she'd liked to mainstream TS porn within the rest of porndom. I don't think she's implying that anyone is going to get a sitcom out of this. :lol:

~BB~oh my bad lol.....oh well i dont think we should be mainstream in porm i like be seperated from the fish thats part of what makes up special right?

[Mayrah]

oh my bad lol.....oh well i dont think we should be mainstream in porm i like be seperated from the fish thats part of what makes up special right?

More audience = more money = 2 bottles of Chanel parfume instead of one eau the toilete(or whatever you type it) :dancing:

[lisaparadise]

More audience = more money = one eau the toilete(or whatever you type it) :dancing:now that sounds like a job for Dino lol

[BellaBellucci]

oh my bad lol.....oh well i dont think we should be mainstream in porm i like be seperated from the fish thats part of what makes up special right?

Maybe, but 'special' isn't the word most people use. Society considers those in porn, for the most part, to be on a low rung of the ladder, and the porn industry, for the most part, considers us to be even lower than that so that they can make themselves look better by comparison. Personally, I'm sick of being a second-class citizen in a second-class industry that in my opinion, shouldn't be. Everyone loves sex, but they hate people who have it for a living? I never got that. :?

I don't really think FreeOnes is going to save us, though. :lol:

~BB~

[lisaparadise]

Maybe, but 'special' isn't the word most people use. Society considers those in porn, for the most part, to be on a low rung of the ladder, and the porn industry, for the most part, considers us to be even lower than that so that they can make themselves look better by comparison. Personally, I'm sick of being a second-class citizen in a second-class industry that in my opinion, shouldn't be. Everyone loves sex, but they hate people who have it for a living? I never got that. :?

I don't really think FreeOnes is going to save us, though. :lol:

~BB~seriously its porn who gives a fuck all i know is i get paid alot of money and my guys fucking adore me so if some guy doesnt like trannies in porn or otherwise isnt it alittle petty to worry about such things?

[BellaBellucci]

seriously its porn who gives a fuck all i know is i get paid alot of money and my guys fucking adore me so if some guy doesnt like trannies in porn or otherwise isnt it alittle petty to worry about such things?

Well, you can go that route if you like, but being a 'freak among freaks' isn't what I had in mine when I transitioned and I don't see how escaping marginalization will lead to us all going broke, but that seems to have been the counterargument to mainstreaming since I got here.

Transsexual porn can be profitable without the added stigma. I'm so sick of hearing otherwise. Some of the most regressive people I know are trans. :geek:

~BB~

[lisaparadise]

Well, you can go that route if you like, but being a 'freak among freaks' isn't what I had in mine when I transitioned and I don't see how escaping marginalization will lead to us all going broke, but that seems to have been the counterargument to mainstreaming since I got here.

Transsexual porn can be profitable without the added stigma. I'm so sick of hearing otherwise. Some of the most regressive people I know are trans. :geek:

~BB~you cant change people when you mature youll find that out bella,you live in america where 90 percent of your people are both rascists and biggots,ill admit im lucky to be canadian where we dont get labelled as freaks here were just people.do you really think porn will change that? not a chance in hell we make more money then the fish its a fact.

[BellaBellucci]

you cant change people when you mature youll find that out bella,

You're telling me? Last I checked, I was one of the most vocal libertarians around here. I think I know this. It's not like I'm saying there should be a law or anything. :?

But that doesn't mean we have to continue to encourage them either. If people are supposed to see us the way we want to be seen and treat us the way me want to be treated, then they first have to see us as human beings and not freaks of nature. We can't exploit shock value and market ourselves as these freaky outsiders and then expect to be respected by anyone, not even the rest of the porn industry. The world just doesn't work that way.

Look at the civil rights movement. Do you think they said, 'hey, that's cool, we don't mind being called the n-word as long as we don't have to sit at the back of the bus?' No. We gain acceptance by portraying ourselves in the most positive light and by educating the public, and again, unless you really think that will hurt the sales of transsexual porn (and again, I obviously don't), there's really no other argument to my logic beside that which you've said so far, which is essentially that you just don't care and the rest of us should get over it.

How are we going to mainstream in society by, as you said, 'having real jobs' and such, if we can't even earn respect from the disrespected? Why should anyone else respect us? Our sexuality is as perfectly valid and beautiful as anybody else's, not a joke of nature. I'm sorry, but if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

And for the record, most girls who do well in transsexual porn would probably be overlooked had they been born with vaginas. I understand full well why they might defend the status quo so ardently, but it's still subjective.

~BB~

[GroobyKrissy]

You're telling me? Last I checked, I was one of the most vocal libertarians around here. I think I know this. It's not like I'm saying there should be a law or anything. :?

But that doesn't mean we have to continue to encourage them either. If people are supposed to see us the way we want to be seen and treat us the way me want to be treated, then they first have to see us as human beings and not freaks of nature. We can't exploit shock value and market ourselves as these freaky outsiders and then expect to be respected by anyone, not even the rest of the porn industry. The world just doesn't work that way.

Look at the civil rights movement. Do you think they said, 'hey, that's cool, we don't mind being called the n-word as long as we don't have to sit at the back of the bus?' No. We gain acceptance by portraying ourselves in the most positive light and by educating the public, and again, unless you really think that will hurt the sales of transsexual porn (and again, I obviously don't), there's really no other argument to my logic beside that which you've said so far, which is essentially that you just don't care and the rest of us should get over it.

How are we going to mainstream in society by, as you said, 'having real jobs' and such, if we can't even earn respect from the disrespected? Why should anyone else respect us? Our sexuality is as perfectly valid and beautiful as anybody else's, not a joke of nature. I'm sorry, but if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

And for the record, most girls who do well in transsexual porn would probably be overlooked had they been born with vaginas. I understand full well why they might defend the status quo so ardently, but it's still subjective.

~BB~

OK... I am hoping that I have misunderstood what you're stating here...

Are you seriously drawing a comparison between using the word, 'Tranny,' 'Tgirl,' 'Shemale,' etc. to the 'N-word' ?

That is just a crazy, illogical comparison.

[BellaBellucci]

OK... I am hoping that I have misunderstood what you're stating here...

Are you seriously drawing a comparison between using the word, 'Tranny,' 'Tgirl,' 'Shemale,' etc. to the 'N-word' ?

That is just a crazy, illogical comparison.

They're words that people use to incite marginalization (except 't-girl'), so yes I am. Trans-rights is the civil rights battle of our time. I think ignoring the parallels between our struggle for acceptance and those of the peoples that came before us is a grave mistake. We're supposed to learn from the past to improve our future, and I think that Black civil rights leaders would agree.

'Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.' -MLK

To earn respect, we must consistently portray ourselves as worthy of respect, even within, or possibly even especially within, the porn industry.

~BB~

[MrsKellyPierce]

Lisa a lot of the mainstream industry consider us the gay industry....

Many consider us disease ridden - cause of the gay industry and Brazilian ts niche

We are just now opening their minds and making them realize we are professional and untapped market

I'm talking strictly porn industry...

They are just now coming around and considering our niche

AVN doesn't even allow TS to walk up on stage to accept their award

But times are changing and the fan base is growing...Sexuality is becoming more pansexual...

[BellaBellucci]

we make more money then the fish its a fact.

I must have missed this the first time I read your post. Could you please prove your 'fact?'

~BB~

[GroobyKrissy]

They're words that people use to incite marginalization, so yes I am. Trans-rights is the civil rights battle of our time. I think ignoring the parallels between our struggle for acceptance and those of the peoples that came before us is a grave mistake. We're supposed to learn from the past to improve our future, and I think that Black civil rights leaders would agree.

'Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.' -MLK

To earn respect, we must consistently portray ourselves as worthy of respect, even within, or possibly even especially within, the porn industry.

~BB~

Wow. OK. As I have a distaste for the drama that this will turn into, I'll take a graceful bow out now and just watch things unfold.

However, for the record, I will state that I completely disagree and drawing this kind of parallel between the Black community and the Trans community shows a thorough lack of understanding about what the fight for civil rights was/is about. At its core, the fight for civil rights is about EQUALITY, on the basis of humanity. I would categorize the the fight/plight of the Trans community as one of (as you point out) ACCEPTANCE, which should not be mistaken for equality; the difference being as stark as morals vs. ethics.

Anyway, interesting POV. I would debate you further on this; however, like I said, I'll just watch for now.

[BellaBellucci]

At its core, the fight for civil rights is about EQUALITY, on the basis of humanity.

That's my whole point. How do we differ? :?


I would categorize the the fight/plight of the Trans community as one of (as you point out) ACCEPTANCE, which should not be mistaken for equality; the difference being as stark as morals vs. ethics.

Well, I think we still need some of both, so while I see the distinction, I fail to see how it applies here. Morals and ethics aren't apples and oranges, they're McIntosh and Granny Smith apples.

~BB~

[GroobyKrissy]

That's my whole point. How do we differ. :?



Well, I think we still need some of both, so while I see the distinction, I fail to see how it applies here. Morals and ethics aren't apples and oranges, they're McIntosh and Granny Smith apples.

~BB~

OK... one more post since this has remained civil :)

To the first:
I think when one is speaking about 'equality' in relation to Civil Rights, you're talking about basic civil rights/liberties, again, on the basis of humanity. While there are certainly places in the world where being 'Trans' IS a Civil Rights issue, on the whole, it would be my position that, in and of itself, it is not... largely it is one of acceptance. You've got to think about numbers, history, and everything else that goes along with the struggle for civil rights within the Black community... which is why I don't think you can accurately draw parallels between the two. If your position is that the 'N-word' is simply a term of 'marginalization', I think you'll find most, if not all, Civil Rights leaders within the Black community would find that an abhorrent position at best, and just plain ignorant at worst.

To the second:
Morals and Ethics ARE the proverbial 'apples and oranges'... Any first year philosophy student would tell you that. What I'm saying is that the difference between 'equality' and 'acceptance' is as stark as the difference between 'morals' and 'ethics'. You may have to think about it for a second but there are clear differences between what the LGBT community is trying to accomplish (acceptance) and what civil rights advocates are trying to accomplish (equality). Of course, there is always a little overlap between the two, and there will always be people who cannot or will not differentiate between them. They're both good, I just think the two cannot be compared without significant gaps in logic.

[tsmandy]

Feelings in the broader porn industry about us are complicated. Acceptance and interest has definitely grown, on the other hand we are openly stigmatized and isolated.

The best agents won't let their models shoot with TS performers, and most performers are very wary of us. Some parties are decidedly not open to us, some are.

On the other hand there are pockets where we are more and more accepted, especially amongst other kink/fetish/hardcore performers. I'd rather just go hang out with other pornstars and have the difficult conversations with sympathetic allies in the business who I've built friendships with. Usually when girls get to know me, they come around pretty quick to the idea, but they are always worried that they will lose fans from doing a TS shoot.

But I know what Bella means about being 2nd class citizens in a 2nd class biz, its true. We are all deviants in the eyes of the broader society, creating these hierarchies within the biz only mirrors the broader discrimination and marginilization that trans people face at large.

[GroobyKrissy]

Feelings in the broader porn industry about us are complicated. Acceptance and interest has definitely grown, on the other hand we are openly stigmatized and isolated.

The best agents won't let their models shoot with TS performers, and most performers are very wary of us. Some parties are decidedly not open to us, some are.

On the other hand there are pockets where we are more and more accepted, especially amongst other kink/fetish/hardcore performers. I'd rather just go hang out with other pornstars and have the difficult conversations with sympathetic allies in the business who I've built friendships with. Usually when girls get to know me, they come around pretty quick to the idea, but they are always worried that they will lose fans from doing a TS shoot.

But I know what Bella means about being 2nd class citizens in a 2nd class biz, its true. We are all deviants in the eyes of the broader society, creating these hierarchies within the biz only mirrors the broader discrimination and marginilization that trans people face at large.

I would agree with this as stated... which goes more to my point of acceptance... not civil rights.

[BellaBellucci]

@Krissy:


Ethics, also known as moral philosophy, is a branch of philosophy that addresses questions about morality—that is, concepts such as good and evil, right and wrong, virtue and vice, justice and crime, etc.

Ethics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethics)

That's hardly an indication that morals and ethics are polar opposites. As far as the nature of the n-word versus the slurs lobbed at us, there's clearly more history behind the n-word, but that doesn't make other marginalizing words any less hateful, particularly coming from people who would like to see us cease to exist (and that's putting it mildly).

~BB~

[tsmandy]

Yeah, I shy away from comparisons of the way TS are treated to race because it gets sticky and people always get upset no matter the stance. There are similarities to the way TS are treated in the industry to the way that Black men are treated in the biz, but thats about as far as I care to go.

[GroobyKrissy]

@Krissy:



Ethics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethics)

That's hardly an indication that morals and ethics are polar opposites. As far as the nature of the n-word versus the slurs lobbed at us, there's clearly more history behind the n-word, but that doesn't make other marginalizing words any less hateful, particularly coming from people who would like to see us cease to exist (and that's putting it mildly).

~BB~

OK, well this is starting down the path towards nonsense now so, my last...

I don't remember saying anywhere that morals and ethics are 'polar opposites'... I love how people go to wikipedia to back themselves up and the chortle with glee when the find something... the wiki is great, but definitely NOT the end-all of End-All's.

ANY... and I mean ANY Philosophy student will tell you that ethics and morals are completely different, and nowhere near being, McIntosh and Granny Smith apples (as I think you put it), but that is so way off topic now, hardly worth mentioning. The fact that wiki describes ethics as 'moral philosophy' is accurate, since you could argue that ethics governs morality... so bravo on that... but the two are not interchangeable.

History IS everything... and it does make words mean more. If I stated that from now on, the word 'Michebick' (I hope that's not a real word!) means you're the worst kind of stupid, and went around saying, 'You're so michebick'... it wouldn't mean a thing because there is no history behind it.

Anyway...

In closing, I'll simply state that I am sorry to Kelly for hijacking her thread and now I'm bowing out :)

[BellaBellucci]

The fact that wiki describes ethics as 'moral philosophy' is accurate, since you could argue that ethics governs morality... so bravo on that... but the two are not interchangeable.

I never said they were, but I did say that they're much more closely related than 'apples and oranges,' as you yourself put it, and you haven't proven otherwise, so I guess I'm a bit perplexed by your argument. :?

Regardless, it's a semantic one. People need ethical treatment to survive and acceptance to thrive and I disagree that the GLBT movement is seeking the latter to the exclusion of the former. I think the two, while differing, are interdependent, unlike 'apples and oranges.' What we need is a better analogy. Bashing Wikipedia changes nothing.

~BB~

[BellaBellucci]

'In the case of homosexuality, many believe it is morally wrong, yet some of the same people also believe it is unethical to discriminate legally against a group of people by disallowing them the same rights afforded heterosexuals. This is a plain example of ethics and morals at battle. Ethics and morals are central issues as the world strives to overcome current challenges and international crossroads. Hopefully, in the coming years, a growing understanding will lead to peaceful and productive solutions.'

In other words, you can't legislate respect or acceptance. It has to be earned. But you can change the culture to make it easier.

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-the-difference-between-ethics-and-morals.htm

~BB~

[GroobyKrissy]

I never said they were, but I did say that they're much more closely related than 'apples and oranges,' as you yourself put it, and you haven't proven otherwise, so I guess I'm a bit perplexed by your argument. :?

Regardless, it's a semantic one. People need ethical treatment to survive and acceptance to thrive and I disagree that the GLBT movement is seeking the latter to the exclusion of the former. I think the two, while differing, are interdependent, unlike 'apples and oranges.' What we need is a better analogy. Bashing Wikipedia changes nothing.

~BB~

*sigh*

This is why I didn't want to enter into this dialogue with you in the first place... You have no actual reasoning in your arguments.

You stated this:

"Morals and ethics aren't apples and oranges, they're McIntosh and Granny Smith apples."

Unless you're an apple connoisseur, I think to any reasonable person, you're in fact stating that there are no discernible differences between 'morals' and 'ethics'. If that is not what you meant, then you should have worded your 'clever' simile differently... or else been less clever, whichever comes easier.

The one point that I will agree on is that, at this point, we're arguing semantics... and so off topic from the original dialogue as to be laughable.

I never said that the LGBT is, '...seeking the latter to the exclusion of the former...' either. In fact, I stated quite clearly that there will always be overlap, but there is, in fact, a difference between arguing for 'acceptance' and arguing for 'civil rights', which in your argument, you stated were the same thing... or maybe bananas and plantains... I can't remember.

I never used the analogy of 'morals vs ethics' to support my original point, which was to say, you cannot compare the struggles of the Trans community to the fight for Civil Rights. And, using the 'N-word' is nowhere NEAR using the terms used in the Trans community... Simply supported by the fact that you could use any of those terms here and not be banned... but use the 'N-word' once in context, and I doubt you'd be around again.

Finally, I never bashed Wiki, nor did I use that as a support to my position. I simply stated that I find it amusing when people can't argue a point on its own merit and run off to Wiki to find something that will help them. Wiki is great, but like I said, it is certainly not infallible.

[BellaBellucci]

I never used the analogy of 'morals vs ethics' to support my original point, which was to say, you cannot compare the struggles of the Trans community to the fight for Civil Rights.

I just think that you're stressing differences instead of similarities here, and I think it's a mistake.


And, using the 'N-word' is nowhere NEAR using the terms used in the Trans community... Simply supported by the fact that you could use any of those terms here and not be banned... but use the 'N-word' once in context, and I doubt you'd be around again.

Maybe that has something to do with the fact so many of us allow, and many even defend the use of derogatory terms towards us when they shouldn't? If you really believe what you just wrote, you should be advocating that we quit doing so, but first you'd have question such language in the first place.

How important do you feel the words 'tranny' and 'shemale' are to your business model in relation to the social damage that they do considering that they, as of right now, are self-declared labels?

~BB~

[GroobyKrissy]

I just think that you're stressing differences instead of similarities here, and I think it's a mistake.

Maybe that has something to do with the fact so many of us allow, and many even defend the use of derogatory terms towards us when they shouldn't? If you really believe what you just wrote, you should be advocating that we quit doing so, but first you'd have question such language in the first place.

How important do you feel the words 'tranny' and 'shemale' are to your business model in relation to the social damage that they do considering that they, as of right now, are self-declared labels?

~BB~

Again, you are making HUGE leaps in logic. Don't assume that I have issues with the words 'Tranny' and 'Shemale', (I don't). Nor do I share your belief that the usage of such words is 'damaging' to the larger 'Transsexual' community, which I think as a whole, has a lot bigger things to worry about than the porn industry. Nor would I agree that these are 'self-declared' labels. They are simply terms that people use to instantly identify themselves or others to a targeted audience. They are only damaging insofar as they are allowed to be so.

Quite honestly, Bella, it is yourself that is hypocritical in this respect. Simply by posting on this forum, you are helping support (allowing and defending?) the industry norms that you seem to 'detest' (By making it more popular... Let's face it, drama sells forums).

If you dislike arguing semantics so much, then it shouldn't really matter what a girl chooses as a title or how she allows herself to be marketed. You are taking up a cross that, simply put, you have no right to bear as a whole.

I believe that there are those who take the issue seriously, but I would say, they are few and far between. Mostly, within our industry, girls want to make money, and to do so, you've got to identify yourself someway.

The majority of my personal friends are LGBT, and honestly, the drama around terms and terminology has got to stop. If you don't want to be described as 'x', then state it publicly and let others choose how they want to be addressed. You'd think as a 'Libertarian', you'd understand that different people have different values, goals, and ambitions.

[BellaBellucci]

Again, you are making HUGE leaps in logic. Don't assume that I have issues with the words 'Tranny' and 'Shemale', (I don't).

I didn't. I asked you a question. Your overreaction answered it loud and clear.


Nor do I share your belief that the usage of such words is 'damaging' to the larger 'Transsexual' community, which I think as a whole, has a lot bigger things to worry about than the porn industry. Nor would I agree that these are 'self-declared' labels. They are simply terms that people use to instantly identify themselves or others to a targeted audience. They are only damaging insofar as they are allowed to be so.

Words of such extreme objectification only serve to make the people who use them see us as separate, and therefore, lower than the rest of humanity, if they see us as human at all. Plenty of people use the words you're defending as 'marketing' in hateful tirades against us. So I'd say the words themselves aren't damaging, but they do enable the dehumanization that allows many people to justify violence and discrimination against us.


Quite honestly, Bella, it is yourself that is hypocritical in this respect. Simply by posting on this forum, you are helping support (allowing and defending?) the industry norms that you seem to 'detest' (By making it more popular... Let's face it, drama sells forums).

I'm so sick of this lame argument, and you clearly understand why I try to change the system from the inside as opposed to shun it, as evidenced by your very next paragraph:


I believe that there are those who take the issue seriously, but I would say, they are few and far between. Mostly, within our industry, girls want to make money, and to do so, you've got to identify yourself someway.

And, 'you've got to identify yourself someway?' So that makes it OK to use words that incite hatred? Nice logic. Hold yourself with respect and people will respect you. :geek:

Seriously though, while I enjoy working in the business, given an opportunity to find a regular job that could support both my son and me and around a single mother's schedule, I would work behind the scenes instead of in front of the camera and it would be my hobby, not my job. That's going to take at least equality and probably acceptance of me not just as a transsexual woman, but as a woman in general, and one with a child no less.


The majority of my personal friends are LGBT, and honestly, the drama around terms and terminology has got to stop. If you don't want to be described as 'x', then state it publicly and let others choose how they want to be addressed. You'd think as a 'Libertarian', you'd understand that different people have different values, goals, and ambitions.

I understand perfectly well, which again is why I don't think you can legislate morality. But I also have a right to state my case, do I not? That's all I'm doing. I can try to convince you to stop using those terms, but I can't force you, and I wouldn't try, so don't try to spin this with attacks on my overall political philosophy. I haven't attacked you on that personal of a level and I would appreciate the same courtesy.

~BB~

[onmyknees]

Feelings in the broader porn industry about us are complicated. Acceptance and interest has definitely grown, on the other hand we are openly stigmatized and isolated.

The best agents won't let their models shoot with TS performers, and most performers are very wary of us. Some parties are decidedly not open to us, some are.

On the other hand there are pockets where we are more and more accepted, especially amongst other kink/fetish/hardcore performers. I'd rather just go hang out with other pornstars and have the difficult conversations with sympathetic allies in the business who I've built friendships with. Usually when girls get to know me, they come around pretty quick to the idea, but they are always worried that they will lose fans from doing a TS shoot.

But I know what Bella means about being 2nd class citizens in a 2nd class biz, its true. We are all deviants in the eyes of the broader society, creating these hierarchies within the biz only mirrors the broader discrimination and marginilization that trans people face at large.

That's extraordinarily informative. I've always wondered about that...so let me pick your brain. Are you saying the apprehension is divided evenly between the GG porn stars and their agents? I find many GG porn stars relatively uninspiring, and have always enjoyed the "freakier" ones regardless of looks, and coincidentally they seem to be the ones doing a few scenes with TS....Like Lena Ramon for example. Love her. Or my home girl Delilah Strong who did a torrid scene with Seduction. I am fortunate enough to be friends with several ladies who have sites, and they certainly expressed their aversion to me about doing a scene with TS, but I never pressed the issue as to why, and wasn't aware that feeling is more common than not...I guess I'm asking what would be the down side for a "mainstream" GG for doing a scene with you? A payday is a payday. It's pretty fucked up to learn that even among "mainstream" performers, there is apprehension . One would think if you enjoyed widespread acceptance anywhere....it would be by other porn participants regardless of the niche they work in. Pretty judgemental of them !!

[Tiffany Starr]

They are trying to grow our section!

I must be part of their section. whats the link?

[MrsKellyPierce]

Here tiffany http://board.freeones.com/forumdisplay.php?135-Shemale-Talk

[GroobyKrissy]

I didn't. I asked you a question. Your overreaction answered it loud and clear.



Words of such extreme objectification only serve to make the people who use them see us as separate, and therefore, lower than the rest of humanity, if they see us as human at all. Plenty of people use the words you're defending as 'marketing' in hateful tirades against us. So I'd say the words themselves aren't damaging, but they do enable the dehumanization that allows many people to justify violence and discrimination against us.



I'm so sick of this lame argument, and you clearly understand why I try to change the system from the inside as opposed to shun it, as evidenced by your very next paragraph:



And, 'you've got to identify yourself someway?' So that makes it OK to use words that incite hatred? Nice logic. Hold yourself with respect and people will respect you. :geek:

Seriously though, while I enjoy working in the business, given an opportunity to find a regular job that could support both my son and me and around a single mother's schedule, I would work behind the scenes instead of in front of the camera and it would be my hobby, not my job. That's going to take at least equality and probably acceptance of me not just as a transsexual woman, but as a woman in general, and one with a child no less.



I understand perfectly well, which again is why I don't think you can legislate morality. But I also have a right to state my case, do I not? That's all I'm doing. I can try to convince you to stop using those terms, but I can't force you, and I wouldn't try, so don't try to spin this with attacks on my overall political philosophy. I haven't attacked you on that personal of a level and I would appreciate the same courtesy.

~BB~

And you say that I overreact?

I've never stated that it is OK to use words that 'incite hatred' as you implied... and yes, in this business, you DO have to identify yourself to your target audience, otherwise you're just not going to be in business very long.

So, the question being... How is it that you (personally) have changed the 'system' 'from the inside'? Because, let's be honest here, I don't see a lot of changing going on. There comes a point when talk simply becomes rhetoric.

You have every right to voice an opinion, but from what I've seen, your opinions are law in your own mind and everyone who doesn't agree with them is part of some conspiracy to put you down (regarding this topic).

I wasn't attacking you at all. Just pointing out that if your political sentiments translate over into your personal outlook on life, as they often do, you should be more understanding of the individual choices that people make. How is that an attack?

Anyway, although this has been fun, I no longer see this as productive. If you'd like to continue, let's start a thread because I feel bad already for taking up this much space in Kelly's thread.

[AmyDaly]

Bella, you really gotta change that avatar. Every time I see it, I think you are steven. The first time I saw it, I was like oh wait, why does he have bellas signature? lol

[tsmandy]

That's extraordinarily informative. I've always wondered about that...so let me pick your brain. Are you saying the apprehension is divided evenly between the GG porn stars and their agents? I guess I'm asking what would be the down side for a "mainstream" GG for doing a scene with you? A payday is a payday. It's pretty fucked up to learn that even among "mainstream" performers, there is apprehension . One would think if you enjoyed widespread acceptance anywhere....it would be by other porn participants regardless of the niche they work in. Pretty judgemental of them !!

There are a couple key agents who refuse to let their models work with TS models and because many girls want to be represented by them they are afraid to do scenes with TS. There's a chilling effect of sorts.

The agents tell the girls that if they do a TS scene then they will get blacklisted, lose their fans etc...

Some of those girls are cool, and its too bad their agent won't let the pretty girls play with me :cry

Other girls just aren't turned on by TS, which is totally their prerogative.

Fortunately there are quite a few people who don't see it that way and wanna play with TS girls. :)

[BellaBellucci]

So, the question being... How is it that you (personally) have changed the 'system' 'from the inside'? Because, let's be honest here, I don't see a lot of changing going on. There comes a point when talk simply becomes rhetoric.

Actually, I've seen quite a bit of change. There seems to be less resistance to the idea of not using questionable terminology, even if it's far from complete. Plus the Grooby network allows girls to run their own sites and market themselves how they please, a fact that I'm reluctant to admit, but must, even if I still feel like my nagging and intention of setting up a similar system played a part in Seanchai's decision to start it.


You have every right to voice an opinion, but from what I've seen, your opinions are law in your own mind and everyone who doesn't agree with them is part of some conspiracy to put you down (regarding this topic).

Absolutely wrong, unfair, and personally biased. For the last time, I can't force people to think they way I do and I never said that I could, but the reverse is also true. You can't bully people into staying quiet by implying that they're bullying everyone else to take a position simply because they argue it to its conclusion.

I've been arguing my case, yes, but you're essentially accusing me of bullying. C'mon! If anything, you're bullying me with the accusations of my being a conspiracy theorist that are overblown. I just keep an open mind and call things how I see them and I think that people should exemplify the same critical thought instead of swallowing whatever is crammed down their throats without question.


I wasn't attacking you at all. Just pointing out that if your political sentiments translate over into your personal outlook on life, as they often do, you should be more understanding of the individual choices that people make. How is that an attack?

Your insinuation was that I was a hypocrite in my libertarian beliefs. And that's fine, I don't feel victimized by you, but I'm sorry, you did take a shot, and it wasn't a valid one. Again, being able to argue your case is part of the libertarian process. If you reject my argument, then go ahead and do so. I still can't stop you and I'm perfectly OK with that. I'm not trying to silence you or ridicule you even in the slightest.


Bella, you really gotta change that avatar. Every time I see it, I think you are steven. The first time I saw it, I was like oh wait, why does he have bellas signature? lol

I already did. But that was a pretty sweet mind-fuck, huh? Was it good for you baby? You were the best I ever had. Someone give me a cigarette! :fuckin: ;)

~BB~

[Mayrah]

There are a couple key agents who refuse to let their models work with TS models and because many girls want to be represented by them they are afraid to do scenes with TS. There's a chilling effect of sorts.

The agents tell the girls that if they do a TS scene then they will get blacklisted, lose their fans etc...

Some of those girls are cool, and its too bad their agent won't let the pretty girls play with me :cry

Other girls just aren't turned on by TS, which is totally their prerogative.

Fortunately there are quite a few people who don't see it that way and wanna play with TS girls. :)


I heard alot of these things on other boards how agents but also performers who do everything their agents said whisper things into other peoples ear how this and that is bad, you just cannot do that, and when you ask for the reason, its as mandy already said, bad for your carreer and lose fans.

Its also why you see stuff like "LollyPop's First IR EVER!" while Lollypop has been in the biz for 2+ years.

[tsmandy]

Fortunately its not true, that shooting with a TS ruins a girls career. At least the models I've worked with over the last year make a really strong case.

[Jamie French]

Joined the other day, sharing the verification photos I sent in...

http://skullcandymedia.com/FO1.jpg
http://skullcandymedia.com/FO2.jpg
http://skullcandymedia.com/FO3.jpg

[MrsKellyPierce]

Here's mine

[onmyknees]

There are a couple key agents who refuse to let their models work with TS models and because many girls want to be represented by them they are afraid to do scenes with TS. There's a chilling effect of sorts.

The agents tell the girls that if they do a TS scene then they will get blacklisted, lose their fans etc...

Some of those girls are cool, and its too bad their agent won't let the pretty girls play with me :cry

Other girls just aren't turned on by TS, which is totally their prerogative.

Fortunately there are quite a few people who don't see it that way and wanna play with TS girls. :)


"Some of those girls are cool, and its too bad their agent won't let the pretty girls play with me :cry"


It's too bad for us, as well.