Somebody Died Or Something

[Dino Velvet]

Yay!!!:pumped:

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/12/18/north-korean-leader-kim-jong-il-6-has-died/

[trish]

Sometimes the news the good!
Kim didn't seem to like the change though.
My theory is Obama ordered a Seal Team fake the heart attack.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/12/18/kim-jong-il-dead-north-korea_n_1156945.html

[robertlouis]

And please also note the passing of Vaclav Havel, one of the few examples to show that moral decency and politics combined can be effective for the common good.

[Dino Velvet]

And please also note the passing of Vaclav Havel, one of the few examples to show that moral decency and politics combined can be effective for the common good.

I saw that. RIP.

How's it going, Robert?

Hello to you too, Trish.:fuckin:

[robertlouis]

I saw that. RIP.

How's it going, Robert?

Hello to you too, Trish.:fuckin:

Good thanks, Dino. And my greetings also to the wondrous Trish.

[Dino Velvet]

Good thanks, Dino. And my greetings also to the wondrous Trish.

I'm still tryin' to put a bun in her oven.:cheers:

[Prospero]

Great piece in today's Guardian in London on Havel by a friend of mine.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/dec/18/vaclav-havel-changed-history1

[Stavros]

Eloquent indeed; and a modest man too. The BBC showed/repeated some of the plays they produced with Michael Crawford some years ago, Havel underlining the crushing repetitiveness of daily life, the constant need to keep repeating meaningless phrases, the addiction to alcohol. Perhaps his best quote he reserved for 1989 and the speech he made in Wenceslas Square:

Truth and love must prevail over lies and hate

[Dino Velvet]

Always love the North Korean News. :cheers:
Death of Great Comrade Dear Leader Kim Jong-il Democratic Peoples Republic of Korea North Korea - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mx9Al8DORuw)

Rev. Jim Jones: I'm very emotionally disturbed! - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRzA4SuATnw&feature=related)


http://mutantreviewers.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/suicideclub1.jpg

[Dino Velvet]

HA better watch out because this site is amazing!

Kim Jong Il Looking at Things (http://kimjongillookingatthings.tumblr.com/)

http://assets0.ordienetworks.com/images/user_photos/1162350/tumblr_lcc3ui3iSD1qewv1lo1_500_width_600x.jpg

http://cliptank.com/images/kim-jong-ill/003.jpg

http://www.cikava.com/gallery/albums/Smack/Il_observing.jpg

[russtafa]

wish our little dictator would die,i think there would be a national celebration

[onmyknees]

And please also note the passing of Vaclav Havel, one of the few examples to show that moral decency and politics combined can be effective for the common good.


I did see that RL. A Hero in a world filled with Kim's....lol

[Stavros]

Now that people have amused themselves with the obituaries of a man whose favourite films were Bambi and Daffy Duck, who spend more money on Hennessy Cognac than most of us will ever earn, and who once -jokingly one assumes- told a diplomat he was shorter than a midget's turd -the more serious issue of North Korea's fate should exercise minds.

The one thing that nobody wants is regime change in the North to fall apart -NK has become dependent on China for trade, now around 80% of it since trade with SK was suspended a few years ago. China is in the difficult position of not being able to intervene militarily -Japan, Australia and the US are all nervously watching the military build-up of the PLA hoping it never strays beyond China's current borders -any intervention in NK would therefore spark a shitstorm of anxiety: and yet, any breakdown in NK could create a refugee crisis on the Chinese border and the southern border, which neither China nor the South Koreans could leave unchecked -no refugee at crisis at all is the preferred option.

Although the North is unlikely to use Nuclear Weapons, it has already demonstrated on several occasions that it is willing to attack the south, usually picking on naval vessels it claims have violated its sovereignty-a split in the NK around Kim No 3 could see different factions exerting their muscle through showboating of this kind.

In other words: everyone wants North Korea to change; but only if it changes the way they want it to: slowly, orderly (the same is true in Burma). The War devastated Korea, an American general once claimed they had bombed North Korea back to the stone age and had run out of targets. A generation of people grew up in an independent state for the first time, only older people could recall the monarchy before the Japanese invasion of 1910. Koreans are proud of their heritage; in the North they have been educated into a history of glory without precedent, yet nobody understand them. This isn't East Germany, yet the economic imbalance between the two Koreas is severe, and any unification may first need the peace treaty that never was.

To rewrite Lampedusa's notorious quote: For change to take place, everything must stay the same...

[Dino Velvet]

Now that people have amused themselves with the obituaries of a man whose favourite films were Bambi and Daffy Duck, who spend more money on Hennessy Cognac than most of us will ever earn, and who once -jokingly one assumes- told a diplomat he was shorter than a midget's turd -the more serious issue of North Korea's fate should exercise minds.

The one thing that nobody wants is regime change in the North to fall apart -NK has become dependent on China for trade, now around 80% of it since trade with SK was suspended a few years ago. China is in the difficult position of not being able to intervene militarily -Japan, Australia and the US are all nervously watching the military build-up of the PLA hoping it never strays beyond China's current borders -any intervention in NK would therefore spark a shitstorm of anxiety: and yet, any breakdown in NK could create a refugee crisis on the Chinese border and the southern border, which neither China nor the South Koreans could leave unchecked -no refugee at crisis at all is the preferred option.

Although the North is unlikely to use Nuclear Weapons, it has already demonstrated on several occasions that it is willing to attack the south, usually picking on naval vessels it claims have violated its sovereignty-a split in the NK around Kim No 3 could see different factions exerting their muscle through showboating of this kind.

In other words: everyone wants North Korea to change; but only if it changes the way they want it to: slowly, orderly (the same is true in Burma). The War devastated Korea, an American general once claimed they had bombed North Korea back to the stone age and had run out of targets. A generation of people grew up in an independent state for the first time, only older people could recall the monarchy before the Japanese invasion of 1910. Koreans are proud of their heritage; in the North they have been educated into a history of glory without precedent, yet nobody understand them. This isn't East Germany, yet the economic imbalance between the two Koreas is severe, and any unification may first need the peace treaty that never was.

To rewrite Lampedusa's notorious quote: For change to take place, everything must stay the same...

How do you re-integrate these poor people into proper society? I've seen documentaries on the place and realize much is left out. Maybe now is the time for allied nations to band together to attempt a new relationship starting with bags of rice and other food products. I could be incredibly naive as well. I feel bad for North Korean people like I do for starving Africans. I wish them well.

[hippifried]

This isn't East Germany, yet the economic imbalance between the two Koreas is severe, and any unification may first need the peace treaty that never was.

Reunification would make the war moot. The international pressures to foment the perpetual war would become irrelevant. That includes the current ceasefire & any kind of peace treaty. I see no reason for the Korean people to give a shit about the trepidations of foreigners. None of this split crap was any of their doing. It's just a bunch of bullshit left over from the declaration that the Korean peninsula was war spoils, just because the Japanese were assholes that claimed it by conquest.

Everybody was talking the same shit about how the Germans, & how they were going to collapse by taking in the Easterners & blah blah blah a bunch of other crap that never happened. Yeah yeah I know this isn't Germany & all that... But let's not let our swelled head superiority & self righteous hubris get the better of our judgement on who can handle what. I know you didn't actually get uppity, Stavros, but I can feel it coming & I'm sure it'll become part the argument sooner or later. I've been watching the reunification effort getting smacked down in Korea for decades now. Both sides. I've heard every lame excuse as to why it shouldn't happen, & none of it makes any sense. Everybody needs to step aside & let the Korean people reunite their country. This is the perfect time, before the NK military has a chance to solidify themselves as the overt ruling power. Either way, it's going to happen sooner or later. In my opinion, 3 generations of hereditary dictatorship constitutes a monarchy. Must the Korean people be forced into more bloodshed & perhaps deliberately ending the bloodline of this family? I hope not.

[russtafa]

Reunification would make the war moot. The international pressures to foment the perpetual war would become irrelevant. That includes the current ceasefire & any kind of peace treaty. I see no reason for the Korean people to give a shit about the trepidations of foreigners. None of this split crap was any of their doing. It's just a bunch of bullshit left over from the declaration that the Korean peninsula was war spoils, just because the Japanese were assholes that claimed it by conquest.

Everybody was talking the same shit about how the Germans, & how they were going to collapse by taking in the Easterners & blah blah blah a bunch of other crap that never happened. Yeah yeah I know this isn't Germany & all that... But let's not let our swelled head superiority & self righteous hubris get the better of our judgement on who can handle what. I know you didn't actually get uppity, Stavros, but I can feel it coming & I'm sure it'll become part the argument sooner or later. I've been watching the reunification effort getting smacked down in Korea for decades now. Both sides. I've heard every lame excuse as to why it shouldn't happen, & none of it makes any sense. Everybody needs to step aside & let the Korean people reunite their country. This is the perfect time, before the NK military has a chance to solidify themselves as the overt ruling power. Either way, it's going to happen sooner or later. In my opinion, 3 generations of hereditary dictatorship constitutes a monarchy. Must the Korean people be forced into more bloodshed & perhaps deliberately ending the bloodline of this family? I hope not.the Chinese say what goes around that neck of the woods and if the Chinese don't want it it ain't going to happen

[Stavros]

Reunification would make the war moot. The international pressures to foment the perpetual war would become irrelevant. That includes the current ceasefire & any kind of peace treaty. I see no reason for the Korean people to give a shit about the trepidations of foreigners. None of this split crap was any of their doing. It's just a bunch of bullshit left over from the declaration that the Korean peninsula was war spoils, just because the Japanese were assholes that claimed it by conquest.

Everybody was talking the same shit about how the Germans, & how they were going to collapse by taking in the Easterners & blah blah blah a bunch of other crap that never happened. Yeah yeah I know this isn't Germany & all that... But let's not let our swelled head superiority & self righteous hubris get the better of our judgement on who can handle what. I know you didn't actually get uppity, Stavros, but I can feel it coming & I'm sure it'll become part the argument sooner or later. I've been watching the reunification effort getting smacked down in Korea for decades now. Both sides. I've heard every lame excuse as to why it shouldn't happen, & none of it makes any sense. Everybody needs to step aside & let the Korean people reunite their country. This is the perfect time, before the NK military has a chance to solidify themselves as the overt ruling power. Either way, it's going to happen sooner or later. In my opinion, 3 generations of hereditary dictatorship constitutes a monarchy. Must the Korean people be forced into more bloodshed & perhaps deliberately ending the bloodline of this family? I hope not.

I won't get uppity because I sympathise with a lot of what you say. First, its a political-legal-technical point: would there have to be a formal peace treaty as part of re-unification, and in order for US forces to leave Korea? It could be one way of creating a mechanism for re-unification, but as far as I know there has never been a formal peace treaty between the Union and the Confederate States so maybe it is not essential. Maybe its time the USA considered offering the Confederates a peace treaty?

In spite of a claim in Foreign Affairs a few years ago that NK has no natural resources, it has mineral wealth, although a fair proportion of this might have been mined badly; but the mountains and valleys that dominate the north mean that agricultural land counts for about 12-15%. Clearly while there are no markets in the country to organise food distribution which is handled by the state, the state has bureaucrats who buy and sell commodities on the world markets, so they can't be completely ignorant of modern economics and finance.

(Dino, food aid has been tried before, it doesn't work).

Your argument is that we have been brainwashed into thinking that North Koreans are dummies, that they truly believe they are an exalted race unlike any other on earth and that it is our jealousy of this that threatens their way of life, they could never integrate with the south. I do agree that they are just people, like us, and the comparison with East Germany works where shortly after the wall came down and I was in Frankfurt and you could see these badly dressed people gawping at things in shop windows -they knew they existed, but not how much it cost to buy. I imagine people in North Korea have an idea of what they have in the South but haven't actually seen it.

The question might be, would re-unification be a 'threat' to China, Russia and Japan, or an opportunity? Should Korea be armed with nuclear weapons, or de-militarise? How would re-unification absorb over a million armed service personnel?

What I suggested in my post, which was not addressed, is a 'chaos scenario' forcing the hand of China -it is a gloomy prospect, but one that has to be considered. Hence the stanglehold on progress in that peninsula state. But it doesn't have to be like that, so let's wait and see.

[Prospero]

Stavros - the chaos option you mention. Could you forsee a nuclear exchange between China and North Korea in such an eventuality? it has long been lear that King Jung-il was a virtual puppet of the military in North Korea (and an important unifying figurehead) and the new one can scarcely be expected to be any different.

I don't beleive we can expect any version of the Arab spring in North Korea. The best to hope for would be an evolutionary process like China.

[Stavros]

The obvious problem with the development of nuclear power is that an industry designed to provide relatively cheap energy, can be modified/enhanced to create nuclear weapons. Iran and North Korea both claim that they need nuclear energy to meet long-term energy needs, and both have to be believed -North Korea's depleted coal resources cannot meet either industrial or consumer need, so the logic of long-term nuclear power in the absence of an alternative gives this some weight.

The industry has been in development since the 1980s, but is not close to the creation of anything other than a low-grade plutonium bomb, and that is not close either -as the article whose link is attached suggests.

In other words, a 'nuclear exchange' is unlikely either in conflict terms, or sharing, since I don't believe China would do the latter unless North Korea returned to the Non-Proliferation Treaty [NPT] which it left in 2003, and it would not make strategic sense to help build nuclear power in NK without trusting the long-term ambitions of the country which are probably unknown even in Beijing. But NK returning to the NPT could be a confidence-boosting measure by the new regime, the military there have said they will lie about their capability anyway if necessary -but if you recall the 1970s and 1980s arms talks with the USSR or the verification of weapons de-commissioning in Northern Ireland, believing what your 'enemy' says is sometimes quite hard, suspicions remain. Stockpiles of chemicals weapons have been found in Libya since the demise of Qadhafi, presumably he didn't consider them to be weapons of mass destruction.

The USA was gradually feeling its way to a dialogue with North Korea under the Clinton Prresidency. Madeleine Albright visited Pyongyang and there were various high-level trade and science -nuclear-related- talks and visits. There were scams, such as the food aid in the critical, famine-struck 1990s for a nuclear facility that didn't exist or was in a state of disrepair (see attached article), but in any even the patient diplomacy of Clinton was thrown to the winds by the Bush/Cheney administration for whom confrontation and demonisation was all that mattered -as a result there is more hysteria than fact about NK's nuclear weapons programme -having an ambition is not the same as realising it. It also suits some of the top brass in NK to appear all-powerful and threatening when the reality is that while the capability may be in development, its not much more than a mirage at the moment.

Thus Kim Jong-il, oddly, might one day be thought more closely related to the Wizard of Oz than Daffy Duck...but its the generals one needs to watch.

Olson's article (its quite short, 6 pages) is from the Journal on Terrorism and Security Analysis, Vol 6, April 2011.
http://satsa.us/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/NellwynOlson.pdf

[Dino Velvet]

(Dino, food aid has been tried before, it doesn't work).


I know it hasn't worked and doesn't work many times elsewhere. There's a new guy in charge even if he might be a chip off the old block. What harm would it do to try? If it doesn't work, what harm does it do besides fill the bellies of the military for just a temporary period?

I know those North Koreans might have an odd view of themselves living in a cult-like atmosphere for so long. I just feel so sorry for them and never want to be in a position where we might have to kill them whether being targeted or through collateral damage.

I take under consideration uniting the 2 Koreans with all the WMD and programs might be a risk.

I have a South Korean family on my block that nicely assimilated into my country and is one of my best neighbors. Koreans have done well in my town and have improved the area which is called Koreatown. South Korea is an economic powerhouse and a reliable ally to the US. I want better for the North too and its people.

[Stavros]

All good points, Dino -to see the positives in all this. Koreans have shown themselves to be industrious given the chance, the population in the North is around 25 million so its not exactly overflowing with people. As with the Communist bloc after 1989, as with China and Cuba (to some extent), and now Burma and indeed the Middle East, autocratic states are under trememdous pressure from globalisation; North Korea may have modest to beneficial natural resources, but ending the war, relieving needless regional tensions and above all, giving people a chance to be free to express themselves must be good things in themselves.

[Dino Velvet]

All good points, Dino -to see the positives in all this. Koreans have shown themselves to be industrious given the chance, the population in the North is around 25 million so its not exactly overflowing with people. As with the Communist bloc after 1989, as with China and Cuba (to some extent), and now Burma and indeed the Middle East, autocratic states are under trememdous pressure from globalisation; North Korea may have modest to beneficial natural resources, but ending the war, relieving needless regional tensions and above all, giving people a chance to be free to express themselves must be good things in themselves.

Hey, thanks. Pretty civilized for me, huh?:cheers:

Koreans and Persians are some of the best immigrants in Los Angeles. They never ask me for anything and take care of themselves. I also don't mind helping some of them in their homes with their Christmas Trees. Things in common are nice too. These Persians pay huge property taxes in my neighborhood as many bought at the height of the market. They complain to me all the time. I smile and shrug my shoulders saying nothing.

Are there many Koreans in the UK? I imagine you have your share of Persians.

[Prospero]

There is one enclave of Koreans in south west London. Shops and churches etc. That's the only real concentration that I know off. And lots of Persians/Iranians.

[Dino Velvet]

There is one enclave of Koreans in south west London. Shops and churches etc. That's the only real concentration that I know off. And lots of Persians/Iranians.

Most of our Persians are Jews with some Christians mixed in. No worry of Jihadis. They're in America for the same reason everyone else is and have plenty of skin in the game. They buy these homes then do 6 months of construction improvements. All this creates lots of jobs and revenue which California is desperate for.

I've spoken against illegal aliens but I have no problem with legal immigrants, especially ones like I've mentioned. Sometimes the melting pot provides and sometimes it takes.

I think Los Angeles has more Koreans than any city not in Korea.

[Stavros]

There is one enclave of Koreans in south west London. Shops and churches etc. That's the only real concentration that I know off. And lots of Persians/Iranians.

I don't know about California, but the Korean community in London publishes more than one newspaper, not sure if its weekly or how frequent it is. There are some very good restaurants too, Arang in Golden Square just off the absurdly named Little Tokyo (although it is very little) is worth a visit.

[hippifried]

I don't know about California, but the Korean community in London publishes more than one newspaper, not sure if its weekly or how frequent it is. There are some very good restaurants too, Arang in Golden Square just off the absurdly named Little Tokyo (although it is very little) is worth a visit.
Absurdly named?
Chinese or Japanese? - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3cbKKf37Mg)

[Dino Velvet]

Absurdly named?
Chinese or Japanese? - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3cbKKf37Mg)

I haven't seen too many episodes of King Of The Hill but I remember that one. Some of my Texas cousins are almost as bright as Boomhauer.

I love Korean Food too. Always up for some Spicy Garlicy BBQ.

[Dino Velvet]

Twenty ridiculous things about Kim Jong Il that you didn't know. (http://www.buzzfeed.com/daves4/20-ridiculous-things-you-never-knew-about-kim-jong)

[russtafa]

i hate Korean food they want you to cook your own food and pay them, what a rip off

[Dino Velvet]

i hate Korean food they want you to cook your own food and pay them, what a rip off

Do-it-yourself Benihana. I get some Spicy Bulgogi to go. I don't like Kim Chee though. Too intense. Korean Food is like a riot in your mouth.

http://advertising-marketing.com/JKSweets/SpicyPorkBulgogi.jpg

[Stavros]

Absurdly named?
Chinese or Japanese? - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3cbKKf37Mg)

I don't know London as well as Prospero does these days, maybe some other board members -there is a street in Soho called Brewer St, and at one end there are I think two Japanese supermarkets, maybe two restaurants, and further up the road a shop that sells books and those odd Manga comics. On Piccadilly around the corner there is The Japan Centre which has a supermarket, cafe, travel agency and some other enterprises, and there used to be an upmarket department store on Haymarket -so there is no really geographically focused Little Tokyo, its a few Japanese enterprises spread around three or four streets, whereas Chinatown is clustered tightly in a block on the other side of Soho and has been that way for decades.

According to Wikipedia there are over 45,000 Koreans living in the UK, mostly from the South.
The Kimchee in Arang was a delicious side dish, but they make may different varieties and you really need someone familiar with Korean cuisine to get the best selection.

[Silcc69]

Absurdly named?
Chinese or Japanese? - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3cbKKf37Mg)

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAH to much.