Washington will make Libya a puppet state...

[Ben]

Agree? Or: disagree?

Paul Craig Roberts: 'Washington will make Libya a puppet state' [Atlanta, RT] - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDkgklfTfEQ)

[robertlouis]

Agree? Or: disagree?

Paul Craig Roberts: 'Washington will make Libya a puppet state' [Atlanta, RT] - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDkgklfTfEQ)

No shit, really Ben? lol

The usual dark forces will do their best, no doubt of that. Difference is that in Libya, the forces that gave the assistance were essentially the British and French air forces under the NATO banner and US active support was minimal, so there isn't the same opportunity for the gadarene rush of US privateers that went into Iraq and essentially fucked an already fucked country all over again.

At least that's what we should hope for.

[hippifried]

What a total crock of shit.

[russtafa]

Libya has said they will go for an islamic state

[robertlouis]

What a total crock of shit.

Could you enlarge on that please Hippi?

[Prospero]

Russtafa - I've not seen that, but you might be right.

Last week I read a very disturbing article in the Wall Street Journal last week suggesting that Qatar has been working hard to ensure that key islamic radicals have been able to gain a foothold in the nascent new state. Qatar of course of all Arab states helped nurture this revolution with considerable exports of arms to the revels. it seems they also want to create a client islamic state. Could Libya's copious supplies of natural gas have anything to do with it?

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204002304576627000922764650.html

And we've just seen Tunisia elect a "moderate" islamist government.

Don't always assume that all the bad stuff in the world is being sired by the US.

[Stavros]

Its hard to know precisely how involved the US has been in the overthrow of Qadhafi, but Qatar has been deeply involved, financially militarily -through sending its own troops into the country. Al-Khalifa was regularly insulted by Qadhafi who once told him at an Arab League summit he was a poor leader because he was too fat; and like many other Arab leaders, he hated al-Jazeera even though he used to join in unannounced on some its phone in programmes. Qatar, like the other monarchies, has been rattled by the Arab Spring, but has been trying to create a niche for itself as the 'liberal centre' of the Arab world, first with al-Jazeera, and more recently with the successful Football World Cup bid. Like the UAE Qatar is also trying to develop tourism as an additional feature of its economy, building fabulous museums and facilities which it hopes will attract people who used to think of Qatar as just a floating petroleum well. The bottom line for all these guys is survival -Qatar and the UAE are more secure than Saudi Arabia because they are smaller, their core populations are more or less all related to one other or in tribal confederations, and they believe their Islamic discourse is accomodating rather than exclusive and that it is not hostile to external influences -there are Christian churches in both the UAE and Qatar.

It would be cynical, and I think wrong, to assume Oil is the one word to use when answering the question What do we win when we win in Libya? On a basic level, tourism/heritage tourism and petroleum are Libya's primary assets, there is no getting away from that. But what 'we' want to see is how Libya develops a modern state with functioning and even transparent official institutions, but also allows civil society to create its own range of commercial and social enterprises free of government interference -Libyans have almost no experience of it, other than those Libyans who lived abroad, and it is foolish to think the revenge attacks will not continue on both sides, and that you can have a revolution on Friday and a new, functioning state on Monday.

The Libyan oil industry is actually well run, it had to be, but it hasn't kept pace with the major developments that have transformed the offshore industry since the 1980s when Libya was isolated through international sanctions. The sovereign wealth fund in Libya is worth more than $450 billion, plundered at will by Qadhafi and his family (who have that weird Arab obsession for tacky furniture)- but Libya in recent years has fallen behind in its use of cutting edge technology, and that is where the foreign independent oil companies come in. BP was in an exalted state, not just because of Tony Blair's diplomacy, but because it was BP that pioneered oil development in the country in the 1960s and therefore has more than 50 years of prime data on the country as well as its experience -Qadhafi was the first Arab leader to nationalise oil in the 1970s, but when he began in 1971 he did it by picking off companies rather than going for the whole show -BP and Hunt Oil were the first to go, even if the first place they all went to was the Courts. In the future, maybe in 10 years when the industry is back on its feet, the Libyans may nationalise again, but I would be surprised if the Americans, through Exxon, Chevron and Conoco did not get assets there. It will be interesting in the years to come to find out how out of touch the Obama administration has been with the Arab Spring, or whether or not there was some 'quiet diplomacy' going on in the background.

[Prospero]

Stavros - your summation of the status of both Qatar and the UAE is pretty spot on (though you might have spotted that the Saadiyat Island development in Abu Dhabi is now faltering. Quite a dramatic signifier of some economic problems i think). But the WSJ article caught me by surprise (as someone who knows both countries very well) and it does suggest Qatar has some other purposes in North Africa. By the way the Khalifa family are the rulers of Bahrain. You mean al-Thani surely in Qatar?

[Stavros]

Definitely al-Thani, I was writing from memory after a lack of sleep and got as far as Al...; not sure what the deeper reasons behind the re-tendering on Saadiyat are, they claim its the concrete contract for the Guggenheim...but it is an extremely ambitious plan and I assume they have the capital, unless the bail-out of Dubai a few years ago and the lack of growth in Europe and America is affecting whatever it is they have invested in those places. I wonder if there are ancillary issues which affect the cultural projects. Aside from the general issue of water resources, the cultural projects will have to conform to the censorship of images that is common in the Muslim world, which suggests a lot of landscapes and seascapes in the Louvre (!). What puzzled me when I was there was not so much the ambition, but the end-users: the Gulf can only realistically be a winter holiday destination, but its hardly aimed at the budget end of the tourism industry, and I do wonder what volume of people will be needed to make it worthwhile. I actually think more people would be inclined to go to Libya, for the Roman ruins and the World War II sites, which are here:
http://www.libyantravels.com/Cemetries.htm

[Faldur]

Doesn't look like they are going to be anyones puppet..

Islamic sharia law will prevail in Libya and any existing laws that contradict this will be repealed, National Transitional Council leader Mustafa Abdel Jalil said on Monday.

"As an Islamic country, we have adopted Sharia as the principal law," Jalil said at a ceremony in the eastern city of Benghazi.

[Prospero]

I think you re right. But Abu Dhabi may they re going for the higher end of the tourist market - let Dubai cater for the swimming pool/shopping mall end. Then two hours drive through the desert you've got culture galore in Abu Dhabi. However as you also say islamic mores may constrain whatever possibility they have of showing cutting edge art. AD is much more conservative than Dubai which does actually have a pretty thriving contemporary art market.

[russtafa]

Doesn't look like they are going to be anyones puppet..

Islamic sharia law will prevail in Libya and any existing laws that contradict this will be repealed, National Transitional Council leader Mustafa Abdel Jalil said on Monday.

"As an Islamic country, we have adopted Sharia as the principal law," Jalil said at a ceremony in the eastern city of Benghazi.Well they rag heads and they love all of that sharia law ,beat the fuck out of chicks because they have sinned ,cut their heads off shit lol:dead:

[hippifried]

Could you enlarge on that please Hippi?
Roberts is full of shit, & his diatribe is a crock of it.
Is that a little clearer?
The question in the OP was "Agree or disagree?". I disagree.

I teally don't need to take these apologists for dictatorship seriously. Now here come all the parasitic wannabe experts, especially the "used to work in the whitehouse" crowd, trying to claim that they know all about the region & can predict how everything will turn out. Well, which of these great prognosticators predicted the Arab Spring? None of them know anything about the people who live in Lybia or anywhere else in the region. It's been under dictatorial rule for as long as anybody can remember. All dealings & stories are the head man. Governments & resource extractors prefer one man rule because it's simpler & predictaable. Not anymore.

[Heather Moorland]

I think all the western countries wanted was to get rid of Gaddafi. They didn't even care that the only Libyans they could find that wanted Gaddaffi dead was the Al-Qaida and other islamist radicals.

[Stavros]

I think all the western countries wanted was to get rid of Gaddafi. They didn't even care that the only Libyans they could find that wanted Gaddaffi dead was the Al-Qaida and other islamist radicals.

Opposition to Qadhafi has been constant since 1969, I agree that not all of the opposition wanted him dead, in the literal sense of the word, but I think your point is that the only opposition came from al-Qaeda and Islamic radicals. There were at least 3 attempted military coups against Qadhafi between 1969 and 1977, and the National Front for the Salvation of Libya was created in 1981 and more political than religious -no connections to al_Qaeda, obviously, and not particlarly Islamic either.

The isolation of eastern Libya and Benghazi since the massacre in Abu Salim prison in 1996 was the culmination of decades of disillusion -many Libyans did welcome the overthrow of the Senussi monarchy, which was inefficient and corrupt; they did benefit from the staggering increase in wealth that followed the oil price rises over the succeeding 10 years, they did get free education and health and so on -but as the years went on, they had no political representation, no right to set up a business, no right to speak -even speaking to a foreigner outside a designated situation -eg, in a hotel- was punishable by 3 years in prison. And so on.

Al-Qaeda? A few supporters, but not organisation. Islamic radicals? Of course -how easy was it to mobilise opposition to Qadhafi using Islam which had been so abused by Qadhafi? It was inevitable, as much as American Christians who turn to firebrand preachers raging against the sins of the modern world and the imminent appearance of the Anti-Christ, are advised to vote Republican.

The majority of Libyans wanted the Qadhafi nightmare to end, they want to be part of a world they make themselves -what's wrong with that?

[russtafa]

Opposition to Qadhafi has been constant since 1969, I agree that not all of the opposition wanted him dead, in the literal sense of the word, but I think your point is that the only opposition came from al-Qaeda and Islamic radicals. There were at least 3 attempted military coups against Qadhafi between 1969 and 1977, and the National Front for the Salvation of Libya was created in 1981 and more political than religious -no connections to al_Qaeda, obviously, and not particlarly Islamic either.

The isolation of eastern Libya and Benghazi since the massacre in Abu Salim prison in 1996 was the culmination of decades of disillusion -many Libyans did welcome the overthrow of the Senussi monarchy, which was inefficient and corrupt; they did benefit from the staggering increase in wealth that followed the oil price rises over the succeeding 10 years, they did get free education and health and so on -but as the years went on, they had no political representation, no right to set up a business, no right to speak -even speaking to a foreigner outside a designated situation -eg, in a hotel- was punishable by 3 years in prison. And so on.

Al-Qaeda? A few supporters, but not organisation. Islamic radicals? Of course -how easy was it to mobilise opposition to Qadhafi using Islam which had been so abused by Qadhafi? It was inevitable, as much as American Christians who turn to firebrand preachers raging against the sins of the modern world and the imminent appearance of the Anti-Christ, are advised to vote Republican.

The majority of Libyans wanted the Qadhafi nightmare to end, they want to be part of a world they make themselves -what's wrong with that?
muslims are happy with that stuff if they can throw a few rocks at chicks and cut off a few hands ,great!

[Prospero]

muslims are happy with that stuff if they can throw a few rocks at chicks and cut off a few hands ,great!

How many Muslims do you know Russtafa? Clearly very few if you really believe this nonsense.

[russtafa]

How many Muslims do you know Russtafa? Clearly very few if you really believe this nonsense.
i have met lebs on the door of clubs and that's enough for me .hey i'm cool with them wanting to do those things it's ok with me .it's their customs like us liking football and rugby.they like stoneings and whipping their chicks it's up to them:shrug

[Prospero]

Ignorance makes me sleepy sometimes... off back to bed

[Stavros]

The majority of Lebanese-Australians are Christian...even the Muslim Lebanese are amongst the most tolerant in the Arab world having shared their country with so many different religions and nationalities...

[russtafa]

The majority of Lebanese-Australians are Christian...even the Muslim Lebanese are amongst the most tolerant in the Arab world having shared their country with so many different religions and nationalities...well you don't know about our problems here or listen to our news lol

[Stavros]

i have met lebs on the door of clubs and that's enough for me .hey i'm cool with them wanting to do those things it's ok with me .it's their customs like us liking football and rugby.they like stoneings and whipping their chicks it's up to them:shrug
This is what you said Russtafa -'they' and 'them' refers to Lebanese Australians who for the most part are Christians, and anyway the Muslims would neither stone nor whip 'their chicks' -it is obvious you don't know much about the Lebanon, and what you know about the Lebanese Australians isn't worth writing about. I read about the riots from a few years back, Australia is covered on the news here in addition to what can be accessed on the web; you can't hide these things. You don't hide your prejudices, and you are free to air them on HA, but that doesn't mean they are attached to the truth of what happens in Sydney or Melbourne. Or Beirut, for that matter.

[russtafa]

This is what you said Russtafa -'they' and 'them' refers to Lebanese Australians who for the most part are Christians, and anyway the Muslims would neither stone nor whip 'their chicks' -it is obvious you don't know much about the Lebanon, and what you know about the Lebanese Australians isn't worth writing about. I read about the riots from a few years back, Australia is covered on the news here in addition to what can be accessed on the web; you can't hide these things. You don't hide your prejudices, and you are free to air them on HA, but that doesn't mean they are attached to the truth of what happens in Sydney or Melbourne. Or Beirut, for that matter.what you know about doing it leb style=Bilal Skafe or about the sexual harassment of local girls on Cronulla beach by Muslim youth and the bashing of life guards.How about the shooting up of Lakemba police station by lebanese gangs or the many other acts of violence by lebanese gangs

[russtafa]

what you know about doing it leb style=Bilal Skafe or about the sexual harassment of local girls on Cronulla beach by Muslim youth and the bashing of life guards.How about the shooting up of Lakemba police station by lebanese gangs or the many other acts of violence by lebanese gangs
Do you also know about Lebanese gang reprisals that smashed up two suburbs and the assaults and beatings and property damage though the entire suburb and no Lebanese thugs were arrested but lots of locals were because the leader of the state government held the seat of Lakemba which was mostly muslim lebanese so i think i know a lot more than you do

[hippifried]

well you don't know about our problems here or listen to our news lol
We've all heard the horror stories. Upon further investigation, they usually turn out to be a bunch of bogus whining by the pussy wannabe gangsters who are just trying to justify the continuous gang attacks on immigrants that are found alone. Especially women.

As for the "news":
Australia's pretty insignificant to the rest of the world.

[russtafa]

We've all heard the horror stories. Upon further investigation, they usually turn out to be a bunch of bogus whining by the pussy wannabe gangsters who are just trying to justify the continuous gang attacks on immigrants that are found alone. Especially women.

As for the "news":
Australia's pretty insignificant to the rest of the world.
mr hippie you are talking shit as usual i live here you don't.READ THE AUSTRALIAN POLICE REPORTS ON MIDDLE EASTERN CRIME OR NOT I DON'T GIVE A FUCK

[hippifried]

mr hippie you are talking shit as usual i live here you don't.READ THE AUSTRALIAN POLICE REPORTS ON MIDDLE EASTERN CRIME OR NOT I DON'T GIVE A FUCK
I have. I'm not going to go digging again. Suffice it to say I know you're full of shit.

[Stavros]

what you know about doing it leb style=Bilal Skafe or about the sexual harassment of local girls on Cronulla beach by Muslim youth and the bashing of life guards.How about the shooting up of Lakemba police station by lebanese gangs or the many other acts of violence by lebanese gangs


And you don't know what gangs do, be they Lebanese in Australia or Afro-Caribbean in London or White Protestant in Belfast, or Tattooed Cretins in Mexico? Yes, they rape young women, rob shops, swagger around town showing 'who's boss' -I don't agree with it any more than you do, but its what gangs do.

You might ask yourself why a fringe of a minority of Lebanese Australians thought it was cool to show off on local beaches insulting local women, unacceptable behaviour I agree. But if that is unacceptable, the over-reaction that followed the initial confrontation with the life guards was never going to defuse the tension and what followed was as much an indictment of White Australia as it was of the alieneated youth. These recorded messages for example:

”This Sunday every Fucking Aussie in the shire, get down to North Cronulla to help support Leb and wog bashing day...Bring your mates down and let’s show them this is our beach and they’re never welcome back”

“Just a reminder that Cronulla’s 1st wog bashing day is still on this Sunday. Chinks bashing day is on the 27th and the Jews are booked for early January”

“Every fucking aussie. Go to Cronulla Beach Sunday for some Leb and wog bashing Aussie Pride ok”

“All leb / wog brothers. Sunday midday. Must be at North Cronulla Park. These skippy aussies want war. Bring ur guns and knives and lets show them how we do it.”


I have my own experience with White Australia, none of it pleasant, I am only glad I will never set foot in the place.

[russtafa]

I have. I'm not going to go digging again. Suffice it to say I know you're full of shit.same goes for you mr hippie

[russtafa]

And you don't know what gangs do, be they Lebanese in Australia or Afro-Caribbean in London or White Protestant in Belfast, or Tattooed Cretins in Mexico? Yes, they rape young women, rob shops, swagger around town showing 'who's boss' -I don't agree with it any more than you do, but its what gangs do.

You might ask yourself why a fringe of a minority of Lebanese Australians thought it was cool to show off on local beaches insulting local women, unacceptable behaviour I agree. But if that is unacceptable, the over-reaction that followed the initial confrontation with the life guards was never going to defuse the tension and what followed was as much an indictment of White Australia as it was of the alieneated youth. These recorded messages for example:

”This Sunday every Fucking Aussie in the shire, get down to North Cronulla to help support Leb and wog bashing day...Bring your mates down and let’s show them this is our beach and they’re never welcome back”

“Just a reminder that Cronulla’s 1st wog bashing day is still on this Sunday. Chinks bashing day is on the 27th and the Jews are booked for early January”

“Every fucking aussie. Go to Cronulla Beach Sunday for some Leb and wog bashing Aussie Pride ok”

“All leb / wog brothers. Sunday midday. Must be at North Cronulla Park. These skippy aussies want war. Bring ur guns and knives and lets show them how we do it.”


I have my own experience with White Australia, none of it pleasant, I am only glad I will never set foot in the place.
yes but our gangs i suspect were used as shock troops for the state government of the time .that's why i was told to tell my guards to not commence our patrols of the eastern suburbs and lock my self in my office if saw large groups of cars

[Ben]

US Double Standard: Gaddafi Bad, Karimov Good


The US shows its hypocrisy by accusing "tyrants" of human rights abuses while not owning up to supporting dictators.

by Ted Rall (http://www.commondreams.org/ted-rall)
"After four decades of brutal dictatorship and eight months of deadly conflict, the Libyan people can now celebrate their freedom and the beginning of a new era of promise," President Obama said last week. The capture and death of Muammar Gaddafi prompted him and other US officials to congratulate the Libyan people on their liberation from a despot accused of terrible violations of human rights, including the 1996 massacre of more than 1200 prison inmates.
http://www.commondreams.org/sites/commondreams.org/files/resize/imce-images/karimov-325x215.jpgThe US has warned Uzbek President Karimov that human rights violations were 'immoral and harmful ' (EPA)

The kudos was as much for the US itself as Libya's victorious Transitional National Council. After all, the United States played a decisive role in Gaddafi's death. First President Obama put together the NATO coalition that served as the Benghazi-based rebels' loaned air force. When the bombing campaign was announced in February, Gaddafi's suppression of the human rights of protesting rebels was front and centre: "The United States also strongly supports the universal rights of the Libyan people," Obama said at that time. "That includes the rights of peaceful assembly, free speech, and the ability of the Libyan people to determine their own destiny. These are human rights. They are not negotiable. They must be respected in every country. And they cannot be denied through violence or suppression." (No word on how police firing rubber bullets at unarmed, peaceful protesters at the Occupy movement in Oakland, California, fits into that.)

And in the end, it was reportedly a Hellfire missile fired by a Predator drone plane controlled by the CIA - in conjunction with an attack by a French fighter jet - that destroyed the convoy of cars Gaddafi and his entourage used to try to escape the siege of Sirte, driving him into the famous drainage pipe and into the hands of his tormentors and executioners.

US officials and media reports were right about Gaddafi's human rights record: It was atrocious. They cautioned the incoming TNC to make human rights a priority: "The Libyan authorities should also continue living up to their commitments to respect human rights, begin a national reconciliation process, secure weapons and dangerous materials, and bring together armed groups under a unified civilian leadership," Obama said. (No word on how Gaddafi's execution fits in to that.)

Hypocrisy reigns

Yet, in the very same week, the United States was cozying up to another long-time dictator - one whose style, brutal treatment of prisoners, and notorious massacre of political dissidents is highly reminiscent of the deposed Libyan tyrant.
Like a business that maintains two sets of records, one for the tax inspector and the other containing the truth, the United States has two different foreign policies. Its constitution, laws and treaty obligations prohibit torture, assassinations, and holding prisoners without trial. In reality there are secret prisons such as Guantánamo. Similarly, there are two sets of ethical standards in America's dealing with other countries. Enemies are held to the strictest standards. Allies get a pass. This double standard is the number-one cause of anti-Americanism in the world.

In yet another display that exposes US foreign policy on human rights as hypocritical and self-serving, US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton traveled to Uzbekistan to establish closer ties with the Central Asian republic's president-for-life, Islam Karimov. Even as her State Department was ballyhooing the bloody conclusion of Gaddafi's 42-year reign as a victory for freedom and decency, the former First Lady was engaged in the cynical Cold War-style of one of the worst human rights abusers in the world.

In the human rights brief on Karimov, one major highlight is Central Asia's Tiananmen Square, the 2005 massacre of between 750 and 1250 peaceful demonstrators at Andijan, a southern town along the restive border with Kyrgyzstan, near the ancient Ferghana Valley. Karimov personally ordered Uzbek militia, Interior Ministry troops and regular army units to surround a square and gun down the protesters, then travelled to the site in order to witness the carnage. A few dozen people managed to escape, scrambling across a border crossing. Shocked Kyrgyz sentries, who had a view of the killing orgy, admitted the refugees. Uzbek troops chased the escapees into Kyrgyzstan, dragged them back and executed them on the Uzbek side of the bridge.

Prior to Andijan, the Clinton and Bush Administrations had a cozy relationship with Karimov, overlooking such untidy matters as the Uzbek leader's habit of boiling political dissidents to death (more on that later), in light of the perceived high strategic value of his country. Uzbekistan has huge energy reserves and a unique placement. (Uzbekistan is the only state in Central Asia that borders all the others. It also borders Afghanistan. In 1979, the Soviets invaded Afghanistan via the Uzbek town of Termiz.) Tashkent is the region's biggest city, complete with its own metro system, European-standard international airport and daily nonstop flights to New York-infrastructure that became invaluable after America's 2001 invasion of Afghanistan. US and NATO paid Karimov for the right to build airbases.

After Andijan, the US gave into pressure by international human rights organisations to pull back. Covert aid continued, however. The airbases, including one known as Karshi-Khanabad (K2) were technically "closed" (though the personnel and activities continued). In late 2005 the US imposed low-grade trade sanctions.

That's all in the past now. In September 2011 Secretary Clinton lifted the sanctions, saying that the Karimov regime was "showing signs of improving its human rights record and expanding political freedoms". As a goodwill gesture in advance of Clinton's trip last week, Uzbek authorities released Norboi Kholjigitov, a human rights advocate jailed since 2005 on charges widely believed to have been politically motivated. Kholjigitov is said to be near death after years of abuse in prison.

One step forward, two steps back. One week before Clinton's arrival an Uzbek court found BBC journalist Urunboy Usmonov guilty of conspiring with Hizb ut Tahrir, an Islamist group that serves as an all-purpose national bugaboo (along with the Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan, a Tajik-based organisation with alleged links to the Afghan Taliban). The specific charge: "Failing to report on Hizb's activities." Usmonov received a three-year suspended sentence. He claimed to have been beaten and tortured in prison. The same day, newspaper reporter Makhmadyusuf Ismoilov, in jail since late last year for "insult and defamation" of Karimov, was subjected to a large fine and banned from journalism.

In Tashkent, a US State Department official described Karimov's most outrageous excesses as "a thing of the past". In this case, the past isn't merely prologue - it's ongoing.

According to a 2010 report by Human Rights Watch:

"New research by Human Rights Watch reveals that the Uzbek government continues to intimidate and harass the families of Andijan survivors who have sought refuge abroad. The police regularly summon them for questioning, subject them to constant surveillance, and threaten to bring criminal charges against them or confiscate their homes. School officials humiliate refugees' children. Five years after the massacre, on May 13, 2005, people suspected of having participated in or witnessed the massacre are still being detained, beaten, and threatened. The sentencing on April 30 of Diloram Abdukodirova, an Andijan refugee who returned to Uzbekistan in January, to ten years and two months in prison, shows the lengths to which the government will go to persecute anyone it perceives as linked to the Andijan events."

These Soviet-style persections did not prevent President Obama from personally calling Karimov last month on the occasion of Uzbekistan's 20th year of independence.

Karimov is one of three Central Asian strongmen (along with Emomali Rahmon of Tajikistan and Nursultan Nazarbayev of Kazakhstan) who have retained absolute power since independence from the Soviet Union in 1991. He presides over an autocracy whose level of corruption and dysfunction is staggering - even by dismal regional standards. All media is state-controlled. Opposition parties are banned. With substantial reserves from the Caspian Sea oil bonanza and by some measures the world's largest reserves of natural gas, Uzbekistan has the means to provide a comfortable living for all of its citizens. However, a tiny coterie of businessmen connected to the regime diverts nearly all of the proceeds of the nation's patrimony to numbered accounts overseas, leaving most of the population unemployed and in abject poverty.

Local militia (military police) are unpaid. So they pay themselves. They terrorize citizens with random raids, murders and countless checkpoints where motorists are shaken down. While arriving to visit a friend in the Uzbek capital of Tashkent a couple of years ago, I observed a dead body on the curb of the road in front of his apartment building. The man had been struck and killed by a hit-and-run driver several days earlier. His body was in a state of advanced decomposition in the 120-degree heat, but no one had called the cops. No one dared.

New strategy

As noted above, there are many reasons for the US to coddle the Uzbek dictator. But President Obama is especially focused on one. "The object of Obama's interest is the 'Northern Distribution Network, the Central Asian roads over which diesel and other US military supplies now increasingly travel ," writes Russell Zanca in [I]Foreign Policy. "The administration is correct in thinking that NDN, as it is known for short, will run more smoothly through secular Uzbekistan than supplies have moved through Pakistan. But a question for practitioners of realpolitik is why the US considers it necessary to validate the unpopular Uzbek leadership now that it is politically expedient to do so."

It also prompts another question. The US is scheduled to withdraw from Afghanistan by 2014. If they're really leaving, why do they care so much about the NCN? Is a soon-to-be abandoned supply route worth dealing with a man like Karimov?

The dichotomous US approaches to Gaddafi and Karimov - kill one, pay millions to the other - were pointed out in an eerily-prescient Uznews.net piece published on February 22, 2011, at the commencement of the NATO air campaign in Libya.
"The regime of Muammar Gaddafi in Libya is using the whole power of its armed forces, including artillery, air forces and foreign mercenaries, to crush the ongoing protests in the country; Uzbek President Islam Karimov used similar tactics in Andijan in 2005," reported Uznews. "The developments in Libya are reminiscent of the government crushing of a rally in Andijan on 13 May 2005. Gaddafi, like Islam Karimov, is not allowing foreign journalists into the country, blocking the internet and telecommunications and calling protesters 'terrorists'. He appeared on national television yesterday and called foreign news channels 'dogs'. Like Karimov, he is not considering negotiations as an option and is not willing to fulfill even parts of demands of protesters; he is offering a bloodbath instead … Like in Libya now, according to Uzbek opposition leaders, Uzbek authorities also hired foreign mercenaries: one of them was Tajik Colonel Makhmud Khudoyberganov, who was living in Uzbekistan after a failed coup d’état in Tajikistan in 1998."

Surely Secretary Clinton read her own State Department's recent report on Uzbekistan, which accuses the Karimov regime of "Instances of torture and mistreatment of detainees by security forces; incommunicado and prolonged detention; arbitrary arrest and detention; denial of due process and fair trial; restrictions on freedom of speech, press, assembly, and association; governmental control of civil society activity; restrictions on religious freedom including harassment and imprisonment of religious minority group members; and government-compelled forced labour in cotton harvesting."
"Amnesty International and other groups have documented specific cases. In the summer of 2002, Amnesty International reported, Fatima Mukhadirova, a 62-year-old Tashkent shopkeeper, was sentenced to six years of hard labour after denouncing the government for the death of her son, Muzafar Avozov, in a Tashkent prison," says a May 1, 2005 report in The New York Times. "An independent examination of photographs of the body, conducted by the University of Glasgow, showed that Mr Avozov died after being immersed in boiling water, human rights groups reported. The examination said his head had been beaten and his fingernails removed."

According to Uzbeks, live boiling was a common practice.

Roadblocks ahead

"The relationship between the US and Uzbekistan is problematic," the 2005 Times article quoted a Human Rights Watch official as saying. "It can be useful that the US is powerful enough to push for certain concessions. That being said, the US should not be saying that Karimov is a partner, is an ally, is a friend. The US should send the message that Uzbekistan won't be considered to be a good ally of the United States unless it respects human rights at home."
During Clinton's trip to Tashkent last week, she defended the US policy of engagement. "I can assure you that we have raised all of the human rights issues in Uzbekistan and elsewhere," she said in Dushanbe, Tajikistan, another country with a poor human rights record. "But we have also learned over the years that after a while, after you've made your strong objections, if you have no contact, you have no influence."
Clinton didn't say why contact and influence were good for Karimov's Uzbekistan, but not Gaddafi's Libya.

[Stavros]

You see, Ben? What's the difference between Uzbekistan and Cuba?

Meanwhile, America's GREATEST FRIEND, the Rt Hon. Antony Seldon Blair, has his own Central Asian Mission:

Oil rich dictator of Kazakhstan recruits Tony Blair to help win Nobel peace prize
The autocratic leader of oil rich Kazakhstan has recruited Tony Blair as an adviser, believing the former Prime Minister can help him win the Nobel Peace prize.

Full story here, if you can be bothered to read it:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/tony-blair/8857689/Oil-rich-dictator-of-Kazakhstan-recruits-Tony-Blair-to-help-win-Nobel-peace-prize.html

[Ben]

You see, Ben? What's the difference between Uzbekistan and Cuba?

Meanwhile, America's GREATEST FRIEND, the Rt Hon. Antony Seldon Blair, has his own Central Asian Mission:

Oil rich dictator of Kazakhstan recruits Tony Blair to help win Nobel peace prize
The autocratic leader of oil rich Kazakhstan has recruited Tony Blair as an adviser, believing the former Prime Minister can help him win the Nobel Peace prize.

Full story here, if you can be bothered to read it:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/tony-blair/8857689/Oil-rich-dictator-of-Kazakhstan-recruits-Tony-Blair-to-help-win-Nobel-peace-prize.html

And what's the difference between Uzbekistan and Cuba and, say, America? Well, America is a far freer country.
But none are democratic. I mean, meaningfully democratic. Whereby public policy reflects public opinion. Where people control their own labor, their own communities.
I mean, America wasn't set up to be a democracy. John Jay, the first Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court, said, The people who own the country ought to govern it.
And that's the way America functions. The people who own it, well, run it.
We don't have meaningful democracy. And, again, were never meant to have it.
We do have elections. But there's a profound difference between democracy and elections.

[Stavros]

Ben I think your critical attitude to the USA while a necessary part of the democrati process, should make a sharper distinction between it, Cuba and Uzbekistan where the threat to personal security from the state on a daily basis is real; and in the USA you do participate in elections, whatever you think of them, and you can write these posts, and make a YouTube short of your own opinions and not end up in prison without the benefit of a trial.

[Ben]

Ben I think your critical attitude to the USA while a necessary part of the democrati process, should make a sharper distinction between it, Cuba and Uzbekistan where the threat to personal security from the state on a daily basis is real; and in the USA you do participate in elections, whatever you think of them, and you can write these posts, and make a YouTube short of your own opinions and not end up in prison without the benefit of a trial.

Exactly. America is perhaps the freest country in the world. Unusually free. I mean, take, say, Canada. In Canada the State says what's truth. And if you deviate from that, well, you could be prosecuted.
I mean, look how Canada treated Ann Coulter.... You and I may disagree with what she says but we defend her right to say it.
It's different up in Canada....

Rex Murphy on freedom of speech in Canada - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BzSm_d7_9UM&feature=related)

[Stavros]

If one Provost in effect uses his political bias to deny Ms Coulter a voice in Ottawa and another gives it in Calgary, how does that enable you to make such a sweeping generalisation about Canada? They have standards in Canada, fair enough, and like the protect their image as the world's Good Guys; and their conservative attitude to lending protected their banks from toxic assets; but this has been two examples from Universities, not the state....have you been to Canada?

[russtafa]

there are reports that the black flag of Al Queda flag is flying over the court house in Tripoli

[Prospero]

Now this is interesting background on Libya....and Qatar's role in the region

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2011/oct/27/strange-power-qatar/

[Stavros]

Thanks for the link, Prospero, although I think a lot has not been gone into. Eakin clearly did what too many jounalists do on the Middle East, speed reading, parachuting in and then out of the country. Oil was discovered in Qatar in 1940, not the mid-century as he has it; neither the Qatari nor the Saudi's would describe themselves as Wahhabi, which is the convenient shorthand franji have tended to use to get over the problem of having to explain why Saudi's appear to be more rigid in their application of the religion than many other Muslims.

If there is something deeper going on, I think we are looking at some major structural shifts in the Middle East, but it is not a uniform experience that can simply link North Africa to the experience of the State across the region, which is the core of contemporary problems. The Gulf is different in other ways from the Fertile Crescent, although the issue of voices, who speaks and who listens, is universal, as are human rights. The Gulf States historically were insignificant, I would rather learn about the way in which these small, fantastically rich Emirates think they can acquire a position in the Arab World that used to be occupied by Egypt and Syria and, further back in time, by the Ottoman Empire and Iraq. Other than money I don't see what it is they have to offer, although Qatar seems to offer freedom of speech not found in other states, even if it is only on TV.

There does seem to be some competition for regional influence: Saudi Arabia and Turkey are currently in the lead, Iran would like to be but is so loathed across the region its role can only be as a spoiler, as long as the Mullahs are in power anyway. Interesting article in interesting times, but not much more than that.

[Prospero]

Stavros - the deal done between Ibn Wahab and the Saudi royal family a long time ago certainly justifies them being described as Wahhabi (even if the private practices of the royals in the kingdom have little to do with any religious principles). And appear to be more rigid? And 1940 is virtually mid century.

[Stavros]

I admit it was a fine point, but I think 'Lutherans' and 'Calvinists' would prefer to be called Christians, to avoid being thought of as followers of someone other than Jesus, but its probably a sensitive point too. And yes, that was a sloppy use of the word 'appears'... The point about 1940 is that Eakin could have checked and it wouldn't have taken him long to do so; the casual attitude to facts that characterises a lot of journalism is one of its weakest elements. The rubbish that was written about BP during the Deepwater Horizon catastrophe was at times breathtaking given how easy it is to get the basics right.

[Silcc69]

16 Things Libya Will Never See Again

Posted by Saya on October 24, 2011

There is no electricity bill in Libya; electricity is free for all its citizens.
There is no interest on loans, banks in Libya are state-owned and loans given to all its citizens at zero percent interest by law.
Having a home considered a human right in Libya.
All newlyweds in Libya receive $60,000 dinar (U.S.$50,000) by the government to buy their first apartment so to help start up the family.
Education and medical treatments are free in Libya. Before Gaddafi only 25 percent of Libyans were literate. Today, the figure is 83 percent.
Should Libyans want to take up farming career, they would receive farming land, a farming house, equipments, seeds and livestock to kickstart their farms are all for free.
If Libyans cannot find the education or medical facilities they need, the government funds them to go abroad, for it is not only paid for, but they get a U.S.$2,300/month for accommodation and car allowance.
If a Libyan buys a car, the government subsidizes 50 percent of the price.
The price of petrol in Libya is $0.14 per liter.
Libya has no external debt and its reserves amounting to $150 billion are now frozen globally.
If a Libyan is unable to get employment after graduation the state would pay the average salary of the profession, as if he or she is employed, until employment is found.
A portion of every Libyan oil sale is credited directly to the bank accounts of all Libyan citizens.
A mother who gives birth to a child receive U.S.$5,000.
40 loaves of bread in Libya costs $0.15.
25 percent of Libyans have a university degree.
Gaddafi carried out the world’s largest irrigation project, known as the Great Manmade River project, to make water readily available throughout the desert country.

http://www.disinfo.com/2011/10/16-things-libya-will-never-see-again/

[Stavros]

16 Things Libya Will Never See Again

Posted by Saya on October 24, 2011

There is no electricity bill in Libya; electricity is free for all its citizens.
There is no interest on loans, banks in Libya are state-owned and loans given to all its citizens at zero percent interest by law.
Having a home considered a human right in Libya.
All newlyweds in Libya receive $60,000 dinar (U.S.$50,000) by the government to buy their first apartment so to help start up the family.
Education and medical treatments are free in Libya. Before Gaddafi only 25 percent of Libyans were literate. Today, the figure is 83 percent.
Should Libyans want to take up farming career, they would receive farming land, a farming house, equipments, seeds and livestock to kickstart their farms are all for free.
If Libyans cannot find the education or medical facilities they need, the government funds them to go abroad, for it is not only paid for, but they get a U.S.$2,300/month for accommodation and car allowance.
If a Libyan buys a car, the government subsidizes 50 percent of the price.
The price of petrol in Libya is $0.14 per liter.
Libya has no external debt and its reserves amounting to $150 billion are now frozen globally.
If a Libyan is unable to get employment after graduation the state would pay the average salary of the profession, as if he or she is employed, until employment is found.
A portion of every Libyan oil sale is credited directly to the bank accounts of all Libyan citizens.
A mother who gives birth to a child receive U.S.$5,000.
40 loaves of bread in Libya costs $0.15.
25 percent of Libyans have a university degree.
Gaddafi carried out the world’s largest irrigation project, known as the Great Manmade River project, to make water readily available throughout the desert country.

http://www.disinfo.com/2011/10/16-things-libya-will-never-see-again/

This list is circulating on a number of web sites; aside from the fact that Libya was a dictatorship and that citizens were regularly imprisoned without trial, tortured and summarily executed -not the kind of place I want to live in, free bread or not- you could also have posted the counter-arguments in the interests of balance:

Quote:
Originally Posted by biddee http://1.2.3.12/bmi/boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=14381145#post14381145)
5. Education and medical treatments are free in Libya. Before Gaddafi only 25% of Libyans are literate. Today the figure is 83%.

This part, at least, seems to be generally accurate. The New York Times published a long obituary on Gaddafi yesterday (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/21/world/africa/qaddafi-killed-as-hometown-falls-to-libyan-rebels.html?_r=1&hpw) and noted this:
Quote:
Life expectancy, which averaged 51 years in 1969, is now over 74. Literacy leapt to 88 percent.
I'm not sure you can give all that credit to Gaddafi, but it's a major improvement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by biddee
6. Should Libyans want to take up farming career, they would receive farming land, a farming house, equipments, seeds and livestock to kick-start their farms – all for free.

And if they don't want a farming career, well, tough noogies:
Quote:
Once he demanded that all Libyans raise chickens to promote self-sufficiency, even deducting the costs of cages from their wages. "It made no sense to raise chickens in apartments," said Mansour O. El-Kikhia, a Qaddafi biographer at the University of Texas and a member of an opposition family. "People slaughtered the chickens, ate them and used the cages as dish racks."
Quote:
Originally Posted by biddee
12. A portion of Libyan oil sale is, credited directly to the bank accounts of all Libyan citizens.

And yet:
Quote:
Per capita annual income grew to above $12,000 in recent years, though the figure is markedly lower than that found in many oil-rich countries.
Quote:
Originally Posted by biddee
13. A mother who gave birth to a child receive US$5,000

This bit casts some doubt on that $5,000 figure, and it also illustrates that what Gaddafi giveth, Gaddafi taketh away, and sometimes in a hurry.
Quote:
Colonel Qaddafi once declared that any money over $3,000 in anyone’s bank account was excessive and should revert to the state. Another time he lifted a ban on sport utility vehicles, then changed his mind a few months later, forcing everyone who had bought one to hide it.

Libyans grumbled that they had no idea what had happened to their oil money; the official news agency said the country earned $32 billion in 2010 alone. When prices were low or Libya was under sanctions during most of the 1980s and ’90s, the nearly one million people on the public payroll never got a pay raise; experts calculated that most lived on $300 to $400 per month.
Quote:
Originally Posted by biddee
Which other dictator has done much good to his people besides

Indeed.
Quote:
At least once a decade, Colonel Qaddafi fomented shocking violence that terrorized Libyans.

In the late 1970s and early ’80s, he eliminated even mild critics through public trials and executions. Kangaroo courts were staged on soccer fields or basketball courts, where the accused were interrogated, often urinating in fear as they begged for their lives. The events were televised to make sure that no Libyan missed the point.

The bodies of one group of students hanged in downtown Tripoli’s main square were left there to rot for a week, opposition figures said, and traffic was rerouted to force cars to pass by.

In the 1990s, faced with growing Islamist opposition, Colonel Qaddafi bombed towns in eastern Libya, and his henchmen were widely believed to have opened fire on prisoners in Tripoli’s Abu Salim prison, killing about 1,200.
[...]
His long effort to eliminate the government left Libya in a shambles, its sagging infrastructure belying its oil wealth.

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=628632

[hippifried]

Oh wow. Such a shame for Libya to no longer have the grand benevolence that iron fisted dictatorship always brings. Should I start sobbing now or later?

[Stavros]

The trouble is Hippifried is that it is a casual benevolence, that changes from one day to the next and is not guaranteed -the trade off between material comfort and the absence of political liberty in parts of the Arab world is now on the decline -even in Kuwait. The alternative option is for you to give up living in California, and move to Libya for a more unpredictable but exciting life at the cutting edge of something new...

[hippifried]

No thanks. I already know what the desert's all about. I'm content watching the action on TV.