Occupy Wall Street protest

[Yvonne183]

China's economy and business climate is even more regulated than our own. I mean, you can't even use Facebook there. What you're considering won't be a beneficial option as long as:

1) The U.S. remains the world's largest economy
2) The Chinese want to tell companies how to do business
3) The U.S. Dollar is the reserve currency
4) The U.S. Supreme Court holds that a corporation is a legal entity in the same sense as an individual human being

Also, China already has a stock exchange. What you're proposing isn't moving 'Wall Street,' but moving the corporate headquarters of the companies that do business there.

~BB~

That is my point,, corporations are already doing business in china whether it be Walmart or Apple, they already work under Chinese regulations, so they can completely leave the US for China cause for the most part, they are already there. And what the protesters want is more regulations on the corporations, so in a way maybe we'd have not much a different work environment than China. I know china has an exchange just like just about very country has, but it's not Wall street. I mean the whole concept, the whole la-schmeal just get up and leave for China, leaving an empty building in NYC.

[Dino Velvet]

I'm not much good at protesting but would it have been possible to organize people through social media to line up at BofA to withdraw their funds? Get a long enough line and the media will follow. Maybe handling just a tiny problem but it would be peaceful and without any help from gov't.

[BellaBellucci]

If that is so, then why are the protesters down there? Maybe they should go somewhere else? is there somewhere else? I am not being mean or stupid, I really want to know how blocking streets on the Brooklyn bridge where Wall street no longer exists is going to hurt wall street corporations?

in a way this is sort of what i meant in my first posts about cry babies, if one wants to do any good then they should go to the source of the problem and from what i see,, wall street is not the place to have protests, all it seems to do is tie up traffic and cost lots of money for police.

Like he said, they're trying to use the symbolic nature of Wall Street to their political advantage. It's not about hurting the companies directly, it's about raising their profile in the news cycles from which the mainstream media is intentionally cock-blocking them. Yesterday, for example, the story on CNN.com regarding this was at the bottom of the list of the U.S. page, when it really should be the top story of the entire site.

~BB~

[MdR Dave]

1) The U.S. remains the world's largest economy
2) The Chinese want to tell companies how to do business
3) The U.S. Dollar is the reserve currency
4) The U.S. Supreme Court holds that a corporation is a legal entity in the same sense as an individual human being.
~BB~
Number one is changing. Number two will likely never change. Number three could easily change unless we get our $hit squared away before the latest Basel agreement goes into effect in 2013.

And number 4? We could get rid of that if the people forced corporations to pay personal income tax rates and face personal liability (instead of hiding behind a corporate shield) for debt and wrongdoings. It's not just about campaign contributions- if corporations really want to (people let them!

[Yvonne183]

I'm not much good at protesting but would it have been possible to organize people through social media to line up at BofA to withdraw their funds? Get a long enough line and the media will follow. Maybe handling just a tiny problem but it would be peaceful and without any help from gov't.

That is more or less what i said way back in this thread,,, stop using the products of businesses that we feel are harmful or bad, like you said, with draw our money from BofA. That would be a much better way to get action than singing songs on a bridge. Boycott the products, one product at a time, but,, sigh,, how many people will stop buying an Iphone, how many people will stop buying gasoline,, probably not many.

[Merkurie]

I'm not much good at protesting but would it have been possible to organize people through social media to line up at BofA to withdraw their funds? Get a long enough line and the media will follow. Maybe handling just a tiny problem but it would be peaceful and without any help from gov't.

Organizing a run on BoA would have gotten massive attention and would have had more impact.

[MdR Dave]

Times like these make me miss George Carlin.

[BellaBellucci]

That is my point,, corporations are already doing business in china whether it be Walmart or Apple, they already work under Chinese regulations, so they can completely leave the US for China cause for the most part, they are already there.

Well it's a combination of everything I listed. But let me add something else: if American companies picked up and moved to China and shipped their goods back here, en masse, without a corporate presence in this country, the U.S. government might be forced to close the trade gap even faster, and in the end, a lot of companies that off-shore jobs and materials and then import their goods back here will see their competitive advantage lost through tariffs. At least in principle, that's how it should work anyway, not accounting for the spinelessness of Congress.


And what the protesters want is more regulations on the corporations, so in a way maybe we'd have not much a different work environment than China. I know china has an exchange just like just about very country has, but it's not Wall street. I mean the whole concept, the whole la-schmeal just get up and leave for China, leaving an empty building in NYC.

Again, if they move away, the pressure to compete in our economy might intensify, not lessen. There are a multitude of checks and balances that could be utilized to ensure that the average American is getting the best deal possible, but the issue has been and continues to be a lack of political will IMO, as this would force prices to rise, and we as the world's most consummate consumers and materialists just may not stand for that. :lol:


That is more or less what i said way back in this thread,,, stop using the products of businesses that we feel are harmful or bad, like you said, with draw our money from BofA. That would be a much better way to get action than singing songs on a bridge. Boycott the products, one product at a time, but,, sigh,, how many people will stop buying an Iphone, how many people will stop buying gasoline,, probably not many.

Exactly. We need the products. It's no excuse for those who make them to gouge us. The problem, as I stated, is that we as Americans are broke (cheap?) and don't want to pay more for products made here, so as a result, eventually we could ending paying more for products made over there. Lovely.

~BB~

[Dino Velvet]

Organizing a run on BoA would have gotten massive attention and would have had more impact.

Makes sense to me. I realize some people might suffer penalties but that's the price you pay sometimes. BofA won't care about their customers unless they're forced to. The Hope & Change train isn't coming by to save anybody but they will accept campaign donations from BofA. You're on your own as Americans. Respect is everlasting but fear and intimidation leads to the penitentiary. Be peaceful and civil always playing the long game.

[otherguy]

US corporations had to give up all of their plant plans, designs, etc. to sell in China. Short term bottom line positive, your stock price goes up. CEO keeps their job for another 3 years before splitting with 50m in stock. Stockholders w00t.

Long term. Chinese government businesses open with the same plans, designs, etc., all with cheaper labor (slave?) from the provinces (HTC?). NYSE stock prices go down. Next CEO loses their job.

Short term. We care because our 401Ks depend on investment. We are as greedy/needy as the executives.
Long term. You want 薯条 with that?

Fucking clowns.

[BellaBellucci]

US corporations had to give up all of their plant plans, designs, etc. to sell in China. Short term bottom line positive, your stock price goes up. CEO keeps their job for another 3 years before splitting with 50m in stock. Stockholders w00t.

Long term. Chinese government businesses open with the same plans, designs, etc., all with cheaper labor (slave?) from the provinces (HTC?). NYSE stock prices go down. Next CEO loses their job.

Short term. We care because our 401Ks depend on investment. We are as greedy/needy as the executives.
Long term. You want 薯条 with that?

Fucking clowns.

Precisely. And do you know what the prevailing attitude is on the part of U.S. companies? 'If you can't beat 'em, join 'em.' This article about GE is only 4 days old:

http://management.fortune.cnn.com/2011/10/04/ge-partnering-up-with-china-is-better-than-being-left-out/

It's ridiculous. Whatever happened to American ingenuity in capitalism? Are we even trying anymore? :?

~BB~

[robertlouis]

http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/308009_10150410402315883_727620882_11021144_134586 6116_n.jpg

See? Anybody can do it.

~BB~

Canada = shitty music.

Like Leonard Cohen, KD Lang, Neil Young, Joni Mitchell, Gordon Lightfoot, Ron Sexsmith, Richard Shindell and The Band

Oh, yes. THAT shitty music. And I'll bet most of you dumbass yanks didn't even know that all these guys and many more were in fact Canadian.

And they have free healthcare too. Must be horrible.

[BellaBellucci]

Canada = shitty music.

Like Leonard Cohen, KD Lang, Neil Young, Joni Mitchell, Gordon Lightfoot, Ron Sexsmith, Richard Shindell and The Band

Oh, yes. THAT shitty music. And I'll bet most of you dumbass yanks didn't even know that all these guys and many more were in fact Canadian.

And they have free healthcare too. Must be horrible.

Hey, I didn't draw this. I just thought the stereotypes were funny. :lol:

... and you forgot Alanis Morissette.

Dogma - Alanis Morissette Is God - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tA3dzBrXYtc)

~BB~

[Yvonne183]

I have another question that maybe the dumbass Europeans here can answer for me.

Does Europe have a higher tax on the rich than the US has? Does Europe have stricter regulations on corporations than the US has? Then why is Europe failing economically when they are already doing what these protesters want done here in the US?
And on the other hand if Europe doesn't have a higher tax for the rich and stricter regulations of corporations then why is the US the evil ones?

[robertlouis]

Hey, I didn't draw this. I just thought the stereotypes were funny. :lol:

... and you forgot Alanis Morissette.

Dogma - Alanis Morissette Is God - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tA3dzBrXYtc)

~BB~

I didn't forget. That was deliberate. :dancing:

Oh, and I "forgot" Avril Lavigne as well..... :)

But I did genuinely forget Kate and Anna McGarrigle. :Bowdown:

[BellaBellucci]

I didn't forget. That was deliberate. :dancing:

Oh, and I "forgot" Avril Lavigne as well..... :)

But I did genuinely forget Kate and Anna McGarrigle. :Bowdown:

Who? :?

Also, Red Rider. :dancing:

Red Rider - Lunatic Fringe (DEEP & WIDE Stereo Remix !!) - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbuLuHsxxlM&feature=fvst)

Tom Cochrane - Life Is A Highway - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3sMjm9Eloo)

... and how could I forget this lady? I named myself after her:

Sarah McLachlan - World on Fire - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S66GVTuEfew&feature=BFa&list=PL4140C1E10736C932&lf=mh_lolz)

~BB~

[robertlouis]

Shania Twain was another "omission"

Yeah, maybe there is some shitty music over there lol.

[Merkurie]

WILLIAM SHATNER SINGS O CANADA - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRTwPyIzY4A)

[Dino Velvet]

What aboot Anvil you hosers?!?!?

Anvil-Metal On Metal (Official Music Video) - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YwSBWwhTAY)

[robertlouis]

[QUOTE=Dino Velvet;1020013]What aboot Anvil you hosers?!?!?

Weren't they the guys whose movie made Spinal Tap look like the real thing?

[Dino Velvet]

More from Canada. Take off, eh?

Rush 2112 (Full Song) - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQEgZNqa8jE)

STRAPPING YOUNG LAD - SYL (OFFICIAL VIDEO) - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WwyuM0PODuY)

[Dino Velvet]

Weren't they the guys whose movie made Spinal Tap look like the real thing?

Yes sir.:cheers:

[Merkurie]

I'm sorry but they (Anvil that is) suck.

[Dino Velvet]

I'm sorry but they (Anvil that is) suck.

They suck in the most awesome rockin' way ever! I'll admit they're not the second coming of Sabbath though.

Black Sabbath - black Sabbath - original videoclip - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akt3awj_Ah8)

[MdR Dave]

Is Rush entirely Canadian or is it just G Lee? Regardless, good counterpoint to Bachman Turner Overdrive.

Has anyone mentioned Alanis Morissette or Robin Sparkles?

http://m.youtube.com/watch?gl=US&hl=en&client=mv-google&v=H90MJTO4wZo

[robertlouis]

Is Rush entirely Canadian or is it just G Lee? Regardless, good counterpoint to Bachman Turner Overdrive.

Has anyone mentioned Alanis Morissette or Robin Sparkles?

http://m.youtube.com/watch?gl=US&hl=en&client=mv-google&v=H90MJTO4wZo

I tried very hard NOT to mention Alanis Morisette......

[Dino Velvet]

Is Rush entirely Canadian or is it just G Lee? Regardless, good counterpoint to Bachman Turner Overdrive.

Has anyone mentioned Alanis Morissette or Robin Sparkles?

http://m.youtube.com/watch?gl=US&hl=en&client=mv-google&v=H90MJTO4wZo

All Canadian.

Geddy Lee - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geddy_Lee)
Alex Lifeson - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_Lifeson)
Neil Peart - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neil_Peart)

[MdR Dave]

I tried very hard NOT to mention Alanis Morisette......

I would only mention her as part of the Robin Sparkles camp. . .

You mentioned Gordon Lightfoot earlier- I have mixed feelings (depending on current heartbreak levels) but he is awesome- very evocative. "Sundown"? You can taste the whiskey through your ears. . .

I recently obtained a Warlocks studio demo (one of the precursors to Grateful Dead)- they covered "Early Morning Rain"!

[robertlouis]

I would only mention her as part of the Robin Sparkles camp. . .

You mentioned Gordon Lightfoot earlier- I have mixed feelings (depending on current heartbreak levels) but he is awesome- very evocative. "Sundown"? You can taste the whiskey through your ears. . .

I recently obtained a Warlocks studio demo (one of the precursors to Grateful Dead)- they covered "Early Morning Rain"!


So did I in my early days! Lightfoot had one of the finest voices ever in his prime. There are also plenty of great Canadian singer-songwriters who don't cross the border, Dave. Try Sarah Harmer and David Francey.

[russtafa]

Michael Buble

[MdR Dave]

So did I in my early days! Lightfoot had one of the finest voices ever in his prime. There are also plenty of great Canadian singer-songwriters who don't cross the border, Dave. Try Sarah Harmer and David Francey.

I'll check them out- thanks!

[Prospero]

I found that map funny Bella... and I know you didn't mean the stereotypes....

and good to see the Canadians being given their musical dues by all the earlier posts. it revisits the postings I made on another strand in praise of canadian musicos. I had forgotten ronnie hawks and the hawks of course.

[robertlouis]

I found that map funny Bella... and I know you didn't mean the stereotypes.


So did I, I know she was jest funnin'.

But it's nice to put the record straight....:geek:

BTW, am I right in thinking that your current avatar isn't in fact a skinhead but one of the artists in turn of the century Vienna? I'll be so disappointed if he turns out to be a BNP supporter from Barking.....

[Prospero]

a few others - diana krall and Michael Buble and the wonderful Madeleine Peyroux

Madeleine Peyroux - Dance Me To The End Of Love - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPei0VZnZUo&feature=related)

[robertlouis]

and good to see the Canadians being given their musical dues by all the earlier posts. it revisits the postings I made on another strand in praise of canadian musicos. I had forgotten ronnie hawks and the hawks of course.

You mean Ronnie Hawkins and the Hawks, aka The Band. This is how to play rock'n'roll, kids.

And here they are:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8SdfT5Ussk

[Silcc69]

How the hell does this thread jump around and start loosing focus so much. Then we ave folks on here embracing the stereotype that Americans are stupid about other nations. SMFH.

[BellaBellucci]

How the hell does this thread jump around and start loosing focus so much. Then we ave folks on here embracing the stereotype that Americans are stupid about other nations. SMFH.

Aren't most of us though? :lol:

~BB~

[Silcc69]

Aren't most of us though? :lol:

~BB~

True true but i'd rather hide my stupidity rather than show it out in the open but that's just me.

[MdR Dave]

Aren't most of us though? :lol:

~BB~
I'm pretty sure I am!

And, fuck Wall Street!

Unhijacked.

[Silcc69]

I did read Bella's article and found this comment on there by a reader to be pretty amusing:

Vector3, 10/04/2011 06:18 PM in reply to sftommy
You are 100% correct. Wow a normal Citizen, a miracle!

Concerning Corporate Terrorism:
Any competent person sees the real numbers. The U.S. of America and the global economy is in a depression. If you work for the media or the government you can bear false witness and deny the mathematical facts.
The U.S. is going into depression that mean everyone loses.
The word is ‘Corporate Terrorism’.
The citizens of the U.S. have no representation.
Corporate lawyers are dictators, dictating U.S. Government Policies, dictating The Common Wealth of U.S. Citizens.
Corporate Lobbyists define ‘Protectionism’ and ‘The Sherman Antitrust’
‘Protectionism’ refers to policies or doctrines which protect businesses and workers within the U.S. Protectionism keeps the money in circulation within the U.S. (Circular Flow). Protectionism is the practice of shielding a country's domestic industries from foreign harm. Tariffs protect the human rights of U.S. citizens. For example Chinese women are forced to have abortions. Insects are more humane than Chinese Government Officials.
Today the money flow one way: out of the U.S. - to Slave Labor - to the Tyranny of Communist China and Oppressed India.
‘The Sherman Antitrust Act’ was instated after the 1929 Great Depression.
History repeats itself now with Globalization; one monopoly; one outsourced supplier; every U.S. Citizens labor and profession in imminent danger. International corporate lobbyists are Chinese Terrorists.
The U.S has no manufacturing and no employment.
The U.S. has no Internal Revenue.
What will happen when the U.S. government sends a Reduction in Force Notice to the U.S. military commanders? The answer is: they will nuke China so they don’t have to pay them back, justification of the Military P. P. Curve.
We the people shall try Corporate Terrorists (Executives) and charge them with crimes against humanity. Corporate Terrorism is supporting: communism, monopolistic practices, unfair trade, malice, inciting riots, police officers deaths and global instability (World War).
The Citizens

[robertlouis]

How the hell does this thread jump around and start loosing focus so much. Then we ave folks on here embracing the stereotype that Americans are stupid about other nations. SMFH.

Sorry about that silcc. You're quite right.

And according to one poster last night I ought to keep my liberal British butt out of your nation's affairs anyway. Can't have other people commenting on the US now, can we? Especially if we have the temerity to criticise people on the right. Heaven forfend!

Oh, and just for his edification (although I'm not that sure what sex trolls are :whistle: ) my avatar is a pic of me this time. Any chance of seeing one of you or will the NYPD not release it?

Hence the brief diversion into Canadian music. But it was fun while it lasted.

Over to you. :Bowdown:

[Silcc69]

Sorry about that silcc. You're quite right.

And according to one poster last night I ought to keep my liberal British butt out of your nation's affairs anyway. Can't have other people commenting on the US now, can we? Especially if we have the temerity to criticise people on the right. Heaven forfend!

Oh, and just for his edification (although I'm not that sure what sex trolls are :whistle: ) my avatar is a pic of me this time. Any chance of seeing one of you or will the NYPD not release it?

Hence the brief diversion into Canadian music. But it was fun while it lasted.

Over to you. :Bowdown:

Srsly when we had Dubya running shit, the world looked down on the US. (though some here didn't give a rat's ass.) Now that Obama is in there the world doesn't view us with as much contempt anymore. (and some still don't give a rat's ass) Then ya'll see the big fuss over taxes and healthcare OMG it's of teh devil.

[russtafa]

So did I in my early days! Lightfoot had one of the finest voices ever in his prime. There are also plenty of great Canadian singer-songwriters who don't cross the border, Dave. Try Sarah Harmer and David Francey.gone are the golden days of English music of the 60s,70s and 80s

[robertlouis]

gone are the golden days of English music of the 60s,70s and 80s

Ummm. We're talking Canadians, mate.

But I tend to agree anyway. :)

[Carrie_Parker]

Move

[Carrie_Parker]

okay

[BigDF]

How the hell does this thread jump around and start loosing focus so much. Then we ave folks on here embracing the stereotype that Americans are stupid about other nations. SMFH.The thread jumps around so much because it's on the wrong part of the forum, you know what I mean. And that's not a stereotype, we are stupid about other nations and cultures. Our leadership, both political and commercial have demonstrated for years a remarkable lack of understanding of foreign affairs and the motivations of the various nations we've had conflicts with. Our biggest problem, though, is our insufferable superiority complex, which I'm afraid is about to bite us in the ass again.:(

[Prospero]

Big DF - I think that America is no more guilty of this than other powers. Imperial powers by their nature tend to dominate rather than seek to really understand. Trying to understand is much more a characteristic of post imperialism, surely? Western Europe is these days is perhaps less guilty of this lack of knowledge because of our former empires - literal as opposed to economic ones - which brought us into contact with other cultures. Too often though that simply meant imposing our values and system on them. Now in the EU we are more connected to the rest of Europe and, via the Commonwealth to a wider world and also via the vast numbers of new britons coming from the Indian sub-continent, africa and Europe.

[BigDF]

I think you are quite correct, Prospero and thank you for your thoughtful answer. I have to keep reminding myself that in the history of the world, we are still a young country. I am often amazed at the rest of world's patience with us, especially Western Europe. Like a teenager who suddenly experiences a growth spurt, our remarkable growth through our industrial revolution and our successes in the two major wars of the twentieth century has caused us to become too big for our britches, as I used to be told all the time.

What concerns me at the present time is that we are moving into an economic conflict with one of the oldest and largest countries in the world and we seem to have forgotten that they have already defeated us once militarily. And of course at the same time, we have this civil disturbance taking place. While many of my countrymen seem to think that this is too disorganized to go anywhere, I'm seeing signs of it coalescing and I suspect we are looking at the beginning of a significant cultural change over here. :hide-1:

[Yvonne183]

Big DF - I think that America is no more guilty of this than other powers. Imperial powers by their nature tend to dominate rather than seek to really understand. Trying to understand is much more a characteristic of post imperialism, surely? Western Europe is these days is perhaps less guilty of this lack of knowledge because of our former empires - literal as opposed to economic ones - which brought us into contact with other cultures. Too often though that simply meant imposing our values and system on them. Now in the EU we are more connected to the rest of Europe and, via the Commonwealth to a wider world and also via the vast numbers of new britons coming from the Indian sub-continent, africa and Europe.

Ha ha, ha,, but the UK never had a black PM, so how can you think you guys are more understanding, you guys only elect white people and probably rich white people at that. We are more understanding than you lot when it comes to diversity. It was you guys who traveled all all over the world killing as many native peoples as you could for monetary gains and now you have the nerve to say you are more understanding, what a frekin joke you guys are. The only reason you gave up your colonies was cause the US forced you to do so after WWll. You'd still have colonies if it wasn't for pressure from the US.

[russtafa]

Ha ha, ha,, but the UK never had a black PM, so how can you think you guys are more understanding, you guys only elect white people and probably rich white people at that. We are more understanding than you lot when it comes to diversity. It was you guys who traveled all all over the world killing as many native peoples as you could for monetary gains and now you have the nerve to say you are more understanding, what a frekin joke you guys are. The only reason you gave up your colonies was cause the US forced you to do so after WWll. You'd still have colonies if it wasn't for pressure from the US.
i think the UK could end up having a islamic system the way they are going every one knows that Europe is fucked

[Prospero]

Russtafa... have you been to the UK? Have you talked to Muslims here? I live here and spent 18 months researching this very topic in depth talking to radical muslims and moderate muslims, to leading politicians and many others in the academic and intelligence communities. i can assure you that your theory holds no water whatsoever. Ot is the very purest nonsense.

[Prospero]

Ha ha, ha,, but the UK never had a black PM, so how can you think you guys are more understanding, you guys only elect white people and probably rich white people at that. We are more understanding than you lot when it comes to diversity. It was you guys who traveled all all over the world killing as many native peoples as you could for monetary gains and now you have the nerve to say you are more understanding, what a frekin joke you guys are. The only reason you gave up your colonies was cause the US forced you to do so after WWll. You'd still have colonies if it wasn't for pressure from the US.

We actually have many elected members of ethnic minorities. The chairman of the ruling conservative party is an asian born female Muslim, Sayeeda Warsi The Labour opposition when in power had two male Muslims in the key Government jobs - neither from a wealthy background. And the first female black politician in the UK, Diane Abbott.

Yvonne, I do enjoy your usually intelligent and thoughtful contributions but please make an effort to find but more about history. Yes - our empire ended after WW2 - but not because of the US forced us to relinquish it (though they didn't support the UK< Israel and france over Suez) it was rather more to do with economic realities after WW2 when we were virtually bankrupt. I do not take pride in our empire - but i do think our retreat from it has a certain greater dignity that the post colonial struggles of - for instance, the french.
Yes certainly post-war history does offer us evidence of the US pushing for economic hegemony in a world where british power was disappearing.

[BigDF]

Ha ha, ha,, but the UK never had a black PM, so how can you think you guys are more understanding, you guys only elect white people and probably rich white people at that. We are more understanding than you lot when it comes to diversity. It was you guys who traveled all all over the world killing as many native peoples as you could for monetary gains and now you have the nerve to say you are more understanding, what a frekin joke you guys are. The only reason you gave up your colonies was cause the US forced you to do so after WWll. You'd still have colonies if it wasn't for pressure from the US.Yvonne, I think you got up on the wrong side of the bed. Given our own history in regards to our own natives and how we continue to treat our minorities, we've no business suggesting that someone else's country is more fouled up than we are.

[Yvonne183]

Yvonne, I think you got up on the wrong side of the bed. Given our own history in regards to our own natives and how we continue to treat our minorities, we've no business suggesting that someone else's country is more fouled up than we are.

I agree totally with you, but the same can be said of the Brits, because of their horrid past they have no right to preach.

And Pros, maybe you got my post wrong, let me make it clearer. I meant that we in the US have elected a black person for president, which could not happen without white support. But the UK has never elected a black PRIME MINISTER. We are more diverse than people of the UK in that respect. You just elect rich white people for Prime minister.

I will have to do some research but I believe FDR made the Brits leave the colonies when he told the world or made a pact saying that countries had to leave occupied lands when the war ended. The brits thought this to mean the Germans should leave the lands they occupied but FDR(or Truman-?) made it to mean that the Brits where to also to leave the colonies.

[onmyknees]

Sorry about that silcc. You're quite right.

And according to one poster last night I ought to keep my liberal British butt out of your nation's affairs anyway. Can't have other people commenting on the US now, can we? Especially if we have the temerity to criticise people on the right. Heaven forfend!

Oh, and just for his edification (although I'm not that sure what sex trolls are :whistle: ) my avatar is a pic of me this time. Any chance of seeing one of you or will the NYPD not release it?

Hence the brief diversion into Canadian music. But it was fun while it lasted.

Over to you. :Bowdown:



You didn't just comment on US affairs...you leveled serious, profound charges at an entire group of people who you prove you know absolutely nothing about, so don't give me that Alfred E. Newman routine. It's an addiction of yours...you feel compelled to comment on every single thread and sprinkle a little bullshit dust on us. I have my thoughts on why that is ...but we'll leave that for another time...and this time you waded into water and got in a little over your head . You're not a bad guy, just annoying as hell sometimes, and after seeing your avatar...I think it was Zappa who said....."Just shut up and play your guitar". :dancing:

[BellaBellucci]

And Pros, maybe you got my post wrong, let me make it clearer. I meant that we in the US have elected a black person for president, which could not happen without white support. But the UK has never elected a black PRIME MINISTER. We are more diverse than people of the UK in that respect. You just elect rich white people for Prime minister.

Rich white people, rich black people, what's the difference? Most people prioritize net worth over skin color these days. It's not like we elected Al Sharpton or even Colin Powell for that matter. Obama's not even Black. He's half-African, but not a decendent of a US slave.

~BB~

[Yvonne183]

I agree totally with you, but the same can be said of the Brits, because of their horrid past they have no right to preach.

And Pros, maybe you got my post wrong, let me make it clearer. I meant that we in the US have elected a black person for president, which could not happen without white support. But the UK has never elected a black PRIME MINISTER. We are more diverse than people of the UK in that respect. You just elect rich white people for Prime minister.

I will have to do some research but I believe FDR made the Brits leave the colonies when he told the world or made a pact saying that countries had to leave occupied lands when the war ended. The brits thought this to mean the Germans should leave the lands they occupied but FDR(or Truman-?) made it to mean that the Brits where to also to leave the colonies.


The Atlantic Charter, signed by Churchill and FDR made the Brits give up their colonies. Churchill signed it thinking it meant the Germans would give up their occupied lands but FDR included British colonies to be free of their occupier. Churchill felt like he was duped by the US in that charter, so in a way the US forced the brits to give up their colonies with this charter.

[soul4real]

still going on.. The longer we stay the harder to ignore

[Faldur]

still going on.. The longer we stay the harder to ignore

Ya I know, the smell is overwhelming..

[Prospero]

Yvonne - a little reminder of the blood and murder that soaks the entire American nation - ask a few of your surviving navajo or Sioux or Comanche or Algonquin about imperialism.
But of course that was all a long time ago.

Buffy Sainte Marie - "Now that the Buffalo&#39;s Gone" - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCWJYTCfjSg)

Buffy Sainte Marie - "Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee" - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTmvrHoyMZ8&feature=related)

[Prospero]

The Atlantic Charter was never a signed deal merely a loose and unsigned agreement and Churchill rebuffed Roosevelt when he attempted to apply pressure on the UK. He saw it as an agreemnt which referred to the land dominated by the Axis powers. Not to the long held parts of the British Empire. It certainly was background noise to the eventual independence of india and many African parts of the british empire. but it is still wrong to imply that the US forced an end to the british empire.

Shame they didn't though.

The Charter should also have applied to the parts of Europe occupied by the Soviets but of course, their empire lasted a lot later than the British empire. And of course China is still an imperialist power today occupying Tibet and many parts of China which were once independent of Han Chinese domination.

Don't get me wrong. I'm wholly against empire. Any empires.

[Prospero]

I was immensely pleased that America elected a black guy as president. I admire Obama though am also somewhat disappointed. Yes - we have not yet had a black PM. I truly hope we will when a man or woman with the stature to lead arises. i am sure it won't be long.

But it is also false to say we only elect rich white men. Margaret Thatcher (loathsome as she was) came from a very modest lower middle class background. So did Harold Wilson Labour PM in the 1960s and James Callaghan, another later Labour PM. The leader of the labour party today has political heritage (a radical left wing father) but no significant wealth. Shamefully Cameron is a wealthy toff - an old Etonian.

[Prospero]

And with respect to OnYourKnees and his insulting riposte - i re-read what Robertlouis wrote. He referred to the Koch family's pernicious influence on the tea party (about which there is growing documentation) and didn't seem to offer generalisations about Americans at all - but rather about the visible racist dimension to the tea party. So OnYourKnees - does the racism of part of the movement not bother you? Isn't racism poisonous wherever it comes from And are you happy to see the movement so manipulated by rich billionaires in their own interests? Or is all that just a left-wing conspiracy to besmirch the Tea party?

I notice you didn't respnd to my pointing out the cheapness of your jibe about hiding behind fake identity's when Robertlouis even uses his own picture as an avatar. While you use a girl's image?

Any thoughts?

Or maybe you prefer to "just shut and play with yourself?"

[Silcc69]

And with respect to OnYourKnees and his insulting riposte - i re-read what Robertlouis wrote. He referred to the Koch family's pernicious influence on the tea party (about which there is growing documentation) and didn't seem to offer generalisations about Americans at all - but rather about the visible racist dimension to the tea party. So OnYourKnees - does the racism of part of the movement not bother you? Isn't racism poisonous wherever it comes from And are you happy to see the movement so manipulated by rich billionaires in their own interests? Or is all that just a left-wing conspiracy to besmirch the Tea party?

I notice you didn't respnd to my pointing out the cheapness of your jibe about hiding behind fake identity's when Robertlouis even uses his own picture as an avatar. While you use a girl's image?

Any thoughts?

Or maybe you prefer to "just shut and play with yourself?"

You have been here long enough to know how OMK exactly operates. I don't think he is even worth replying to anymore just a waste of time really.

[Prospero]

Silcc69 - I actually hadn't really paid much attention to him until now. But I'll follow your advice. Ta.

[Stavros]

‘The Sherman Antitrust Act’ was instated after the 1929 Great Depression

Silc, the 'Sherman Act' was passed in Congress in 1890, and first used to break up John D. Rockefeller's Standard Oil empire in 1911.

Yvonne, I don't expect to see a black Prime Minister in the UK in my lifetime, it is not impossible but the three parties we have do not at the present moment have any MP's who appear likely to climb the greasy pole to greatness. The UK is not as diverse as the USA, which I consider to be one of its greatest assets; I also think from personal experience that there is a quiet phobia of foreigners here which does not exist in the USA in the same manner because most Americans are descended from immigrants; it ceases to be quiet in the anonymous comments to newspaper articles where immigration and multi-culturalism are often the targets of much rage and sarcasm, notably in The Daily Telegraph.

Anglo-American relations have veered between competition for influence and resources in the Middle East (notably in the 1930s); and co-operation, as in the First and Second World Wars. Churchill was half-American and was never entirely trusted by the British establishment, or indeed the Conservative Party, which he joined when it was clear his first party, the Liberals, would not win another election. But Anglo-American relations are quite complex and I don't know what it has to do with the Wall St Occupation, or even why this thread is in General Discussion. Tra-la-la.

[Prospero]

I agree Stavros. It should be in the politics strand - but only a moderator could divert this fast flowing river at this point.

Yes - America IS indeed a nation made of immigrants and people from elsewhere which makes the racism of so many whites so disturbing.

As to British xenophobia. it is vile and wholly unnacceptable. But really that SHOULD become a thread in politics and religion.

[Yvonne183]

Yvonne - a little reminder of the blood and murder that soaks the entire American nation - ask a few of your surviving navajo or Sioux or Comanche or Algonquin about imperialism.
But of course that was all a long time ago.

Buffy Sainte Marie - "Now that the Buffalo's Gone" - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCWJYTCfjSg)

Buffy Sainte Marie - "Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee" - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTmvrHoyMZ8&feature=related)

I never said that the US is squeaky clean, the US is far from it. My point is that the UK is no better. You are still in Ireland where you don't belong, you have committed just as much atrocities in India and Africa as we did to the Indians in the US. You have joined the US in Iraq and Afghanistan so that wiould make that point mute about those wars. While we were in Vietnam you guys were in Malaysia making raids into Indonesia hunting down,,( now get ready for this word) insurgents.

Most of the trouble spots of the world in modern times were caused by British interference,,, Iraq/Kuwait,,,India/Pakistan,,, Serbia/Croatia,,,, South Africa,,, Israel/Palestine These are all areas where British tried to make policy and the outcomes were disasters.

I never said the US is a good guy, but you Brits have no hold on the moral high ground, you guys were just as evil as we were, so you are in no way ready to preach to the US on what are the right way to live. You guys even had riots just recently in your past year cause of the injustice to the poor and such,,, if you guys were so enlightened with what is righteous then why were there peasant riots in your land of self righteousness?

[Yvonne183]

‘The Sherman Antitrust Act’ was instated after the 1929 Great Depression

Silc, the 'Sherman Act' was passed in Congress in 1890, and first used to break up John D. Rockefeller's Standard Oil empire in 1911.

Yvonne, I don't expect to see a black Prime Minister in the UK in my lifetime, it is not impossible but the three parties we have do not at the present moment have any MP's who appear likely to climb the greasy pole to greatness. The UK is not as diverse as the USA, which I consider to be one of its greatest assets; I also think from personal experience that there is a quiet phobia of foreigners here which does not exist in the USA in the same manner because most Americans are descended from immigrants; it ceases to be quiet in the anonymous comments to newspaper articles where immigration and multi-culturalism are often the targets of much rage and sarcasm, notably in The Daily Telegraph.

Anglo-American relations have veered between competition for influence and resources in the Middle East (notably in the 1930s); and co-operation, as in the First and Second World Wars. Churchill was half-American and was never entirely trusted by the British establishment, or indeed the Conservative Party, which he joined when it was clear his first party, the Liberals, would not win another election. But Anglo-American relations are quite complex and I don't know what it has to do with the Wall St Occupation, or even why this thread is in General Discussion. Tra-la-la.

Starvos, i didn't hear you complain when the talk went off topic with posts about Canadian musicians so why does it bother you so that the topic went into anglo/american posts?

[Yvonne183]

I agree Stavros. It should be in the politics strand - but only a moderator could divert this fast flowing river at this point.

Yes - America IS indeed a nation made of immigrants and people from elsewhere which makes the racism of so many whites so disturbing.

As to British xenophobia. it is vile and wholly unnacceptable. But really that SHOULD become a thread in politics and religion.

You got to be fuckin kidding me? British xenophobia????? All you Brits do on this forum is put down the US and it's inhabitants, just look at your own vile remarks about the tea party or rednecks. You brits constantly talk negatively about the US and now the talk is about the brits you cry like a baby. sheeesh

[Silcc69]

‘The Sherman Antitrust Act’ was instated after the 1929 Great Depression

Silc, the 'Sherman Act' was passed in Congress in 1890, and first used to break up John D. Rockefeller's Standard Oil empire in 1911.

Yvonne, I don't expect to see a black Prime Minister in the UK in my lifetime, it is not impossible but the three parties we have do not at the present moment have any MP's who appear likely to climb the greasy pole to greatness. The UK is not as diverse as the USA, which I consider to be one of its greatest assets; I also think from personal experience that there is a quiet phobia of foreigners here which does not exist in the USA in the same manner because most Americans are descended from immigrants; it ceases to be quiet in the anonymous comments to newspaper articles where immigration and multi-culturalism are often the targets of much rage and sarcasm, notably in The Daily Telegraph.

Anglo-American relations have veered between competition for influence and resources in the Middle East (notably in the 1930s); and co-operation, as in the First and Second World Wars. Churchill was half-American and was never entirely trusted by the British establishment, or indeed the Conservative Party, which he joined when it was clear his first party, the Liberals, would not win another election. But Anglo-American relations are quite complex and I don't know what it has to do with the Wall St Occupation, or even why this thread is in General Discussion. Tra-la-la.

That was comment from the link that Bella provided not from me personally.

[Prospero]

Yvonne - I have posted a huge number of positive things across this forum about American life - culture and politics. i love America and Americans which is why I so deeply deplore the perversion of American values that I see manifest in the impulses of the tea party and in the souther bigots who would probably kill you and most of the people in this forum. (To them we are perverts and weirdos). These people exist across the world. I hate them wherever and whenever i meet them. But there are no strands here talking about the hate manifested by Russians or Aussies or Dutch or whoever. The bulk of the political discussion on here is about America. And since America remains the most powerful nation in the world, what happens in your domestic politics shapes the future of all of us.

If I offer an intemperate response to your postings (those Buffy St Marie songs for instance) its an attempt to remind you that all of us - the British and the Americans and the rest) have horrible skeletons in our closets.

Oh and where do you see me crying like a baby> Really Yvonne. What's eating you up today?

[Yvonne183]

Yvonne - I have posted a huge number of positive things across this forum about American life - culture and politics. i love America and Americans which is why I so deeply deplore the perversion of American values that I see manifest in the impulses of the tea party and in the souther bigots who would probably kill you and most of the people in this forum. (To them we are perverts and weirdos). These people exist across the world. I hate them wherever and whenever i meet them. But there are no strands here talking about the hate manifested by Russians or Aussies or Dutch or whoever. The bulk of the political discussion on here is about America. And since America remains the most powerful nation in the world, what happens in your domestic politics shapes the future of all of us.

If I offer an intemperate response to your postings (those Buffy St Marie songs for instance) its an attempt to remind you that all of us - the British and the Americans and the rest) have horrible skeletons in our closets.

Oh and where do you see me crying like a baby> Really Yvonne. What's eating you up today?


What is eating me is I am tired of reading, watching tv, web forums hearing from Europeans/UK how terrible we are in the US. Sometimes you seem to have some sort of playbook writen by a few people that tells you what life is really like here in the US.

While yes, if you use the phrase "Southern bigot" of course this person will want to kill me because by definition you labeled him a bigot, just like an English bigot would want to kill me but if you use the word southerner or even white southerner then this statement you make is not true. This is something that is written in that mythical book liberals seem to own.

I live with people that can be described as redneckish, but they don't want to kill me. there was more danger to my life when living around Obama supporters but you living in the UK probably don't believe cause it doesn't make sense in the book. When i say book, I mean liberal ideals.

You people in the UK and some Americans on this forum are all good and ready to make blanket statements about groups of people that you dislike but don't like it when the same is done in return. Just cause someone has a political idea that doesn't fits yours doesn't make them a bad person. And I just get tired of hearing british liberals talk as if they are God's gift to the world. I feel sometimes the Brits should clean their own yard before they try and clean the worlds yard, that is basically it.

What i meant about the cry baby thing was when you said British xenophobia,,, I didn't know what else to say,, i was laughing to much so saying cry baby is all i could think of.

[Prospero]

No I don't like blanket statement. And you'll see i am careful to point at the racists among the tea party followers and the abuse of the ideals of ordinary people by billionaire business people.
You are now doing the same calling us "you people." Talk to me - talk to an individual rather than "you people." I am talking to you Yvonne. Not grandstanding.

And yes British xenophobia is a reality I do not deny it. I am ashamed of it. Many brits DO take a very simplistic viewpoint of the US. I have been to the US literally hundreds of times. i have many friends there - across the nation (and in the south) I have family there. I am not trafficking in stereotypes. I say the things i say out of love for your country - not hate. The things that frighten me - in the UK and the US - are the rise of unreasons, the rise of race hate (against Muslims right now) the re-awakening of an always latent homophobia, of anti Semitism and other such disturbing trends. Yes I am a "liberal" which is I have hear a dirty word in the US now - often aligned in some people's minds with being a commie (thanks in large part to the efforts of vicious idiots like Glen Beck). But I have ideals such as equalty, human rights, justice etc which I see being betrayed across the board (here and in your country) - and which i believe in passionately. Okay.

[Silcc69]

What is eating me is I am tired of reading, watching tv, web forums hearing from Europeans/UK how terrible we are in the US. Sometimes you seem to have some sort of playbook writing by a few people that tells you what life is really like here in the US.

While yes, if you use the phrase "Southern bigot" of course this person will want to kill me because by definition you labeled him a bigot, just like an English bigot would want to kill me but if you use the word southerner or even white southerner this statement you make is not true. This is something that is written in that mythical book liberals seem to own.

I live with people that are can be described as redneckish, bu they don't want to kill me. there was more danger to my life when living around Obama supporters but you living in the UK probably don't believe cause it doesn't make sense in the book. When i say book, I mean liberal ideals.

You people in the UK and some Americans on this forum are all good and ready to make blanket statements about groups of people that you dislike but don't like it when the same is done in return. Just cause someone has a political idea that doesn't fits yours doesn't make them a bad person. And I just get tired of hearing british liberals talk as if they are God's gift to the world. I feel sometimes the Brits should clean their own yard before they try and clean the worlds yard, that is basically it.

What i meant about the cry baby thing was when you said British xenophobia,,, I didn't know what else to say,, i was laughing to much so saying cry baby is all i could think of.

Please enlighten me about that one. And let's be real which party has pray the gay away? Which party had the debate in which the crowd booed an openly gay soldier yet none of the candidates didn't say a damn thing about how wrong the crowd was. I think there probably just as many gay republicans politicians as there is democrat but being open about it would be political suicide. The christian right has a very very strong presence in the republican politics. Which is ironic considering that don't even seem to be living by the teachings of Jesus. And i'm sure you're aware of the old southern strategy.

[Yvonne183]

No I don't like blanket statement. And you'll see i am careful to point at the racists among the tea party followers and the abuse of the ideals of ordinary people by billionaire business people.
You are now doing the same calling us "you people." Talk to me - talk to an individual rather than "you people." I am talking to you Yvonne. Not grandstanding.

And yes British xenophobia is a reality I do not deny it. I am ashamed of it. Many brits DO take a very simplistic viewpoint of the US. I have been to the US literally hundreds of times. i have many friends there - across the nation (and in the south) I have family there. I am not trafficking in stereotypes. I say the things i say out of love for your country - not hate. The things that frighten me - in the UK and the US - are the rise of unreasons, the rise of race hate (against Muslims right now) the re-awakening of an always latent homophobia, of anti Semitism and other such disturbing trends. Yes I am a "liberal" which is I have hear a dirty word in the US now - often aligned in some people's minds with being a commie (thanks in large part to the efforts of vicious idiots like Glen Beck). But I have ideals such as equalty, human rights, justice etc which I see being betrayed across the board (here and in your country) - and which i believe in passionately. Okay.

My mistake,, when you said British Xenophobia I thought you meant Americans who hated British foreigners to America.

[Prospero]

Yvonne - sorry if you feel we hate Americans. It isn't so. Sorry to see you aligning yourself with the more virulent right wingers here. I am sure that isn't your natural home either and a position you're taking for the sake of this argument.
I regret to advise you that i will continue to post critical remarks about the penetration of the GOP by ignorance and viciousness. it is too important for us all not to remark upon. The USA is too powerful to fall into the hands of the ultra right. It will affect us all. Look at the mess our MUTUAL interference in iraq has left for the whole Middle east. Thanks to Bush and Blair.

Feel free to offer your insights on the horrible nature of the british Conservative party. They're a bunch of vile folk too.

Stay well. I'm logging out now.

[Stavros]

Yvonne, I only started reading this thread today and don't have an interest in Canadian folk music even though I know a Canadian who plays it; I just commented on what interested me, and I wasn't criticising your views and did make the point that I myself have been subject to abuse in this country because of some confusion over my assumed origins.
The Insurgency in Malaya was over by the time the US began its operations in Vietnam, and the record of British imperialism in parts of America, Africa, and Asia is mixed, on the one hand there are cases of many atrocities, on the other hand there is a different, more positive perspective on Empire but to explain it would take a long time and it is not germane to this thread. And, as you point out, sometimes the US and the UK have been in nasty situations together.

Silc, I haven't read the whole thread, mea culpa.

[Yvonne183]

Yvonne - sorry if you feel we hate Americans. It isn't so. Sorry to see you aligning yourself with the more virulent right wingers here. I am sure that isn't your natural home either and a position you're taking for the sake of this argument.
I regret to advise you that i will continue to post critical remarks about the penetration of the GOP by ignorance and viciousness. it is too important for us all not to remark upon. The USA is too powerful to fall into the hands of the ultra right. It will affect us all. Look at the mess our MUTUAL interference in iraq has left for the whole Middle east. Thanks to Bush and Blair.

Feel free to offer your insights on the horrible nature of the british Conservative party. They're a bunch of vile folk too.

Stay well. I'm logging out now.


Bye,, it's been fun,, well sort of.

[Yvonne183]

Yvonne, I only started reading this thread today and don't have an interest in Canadian folk music even though I know a Canadian who plays it; I just commented on what interested me, and I wasn't criticising your views and did make the point that I myself have been subject to abuse in this country because of some confusion over my assumed origins.
The Insurgency in Malaya was over by the time the US began its operations in Vietnam, and the record of British imperialism in parts of America, Africa, and Asia is mixed, on the one hand there are cases of many atrocities, on the other hand there is a different, more positive perspective on Empire but to explain it would take a long time and it is not germane to this thread. And, as you point out, sometimes the US and the UK have been in nasty situations together.

Silc, I haven't read the whole thread, mea culpa.

British SAS were running missions into Indonesia from Malaysia in 1965. They had air support when they got into a jam. The Vietnam war was well into it by 1965. Anyway, what difference does it make if the exact dates don't match, the brits did this the same thing as we did in Vietnam.My point is the Brits are exactly the same as the US, we are not different in any way.

[RainMan]

Yvonne - sorry if you feel we hate Americans. It isn't so. Sorry to see you aligning yourself with the more virulent right wingers here. I am sure that isn't your natural home either and a position you're taking for the sake of this argument.
I regret to advise you that i will continue to post critical remarks about the penetration of the GOP by ignorance and viciousness. it is too important for us all not to remark upon. The USA is too powerful to fall into the hands of the ultra right. It will affect us all. Look at the mess our MUTUAL interference in iraq has left for the whole Middle east. Thanks to Bush and Blair.

Feel free to offer your insights on the horrible nature of the british Conservative party. They're a bunch of vile folk too.

Stay well. I'm logging out now.

I agree, it's good people are starting to let the complaints be known at the places that aided the problems, millions of Americans are straddling the poverty lines many without jobs or living pay check to pay check and with even just one unexpected expense can send a family under, one of the last and probably the hardest fight that will have to take place is getting the majority of the population from allowing religion to alter the way politics works, that way we can have more sensible moderates/independents who aren't bond by religion to sway one way or another like many republicans or forced to be anti republicans like a lot of democrats, for to long the people have been forced to pick the lesser of two evils each election year. Hopefully common sense and truth/honesty can be brought back to politics, and in doing so here can help fix a lot of the problems that go on in this world

[MdR Dave]

We've gotten a little off track here- though I doubt the protesters are any more focused. Here's a pic to help:

[robertlouis]

You have been here long enough to know how OMK exactly operates. I don't think he is even worth replying to anymore just a waste of time really.


Excellent advice, Silcc. Which I will follow. When someone has an agenda which is not only transparent but also threadbare, there's no point.

[onmyknees]

Excellent advice, Silcc. Which I will follow. When someone has an agenda which is not only transparent but also threadbare, there's no point.

LMAO...So now we have a race baiter and a master baiter ganging up on me . The HA version of ebony and ivory, or fric and frack lmao...I don't think I can stand it really. Both you sweethearts like to dish the bullshit but both of you are light in the ass, and light on your facts. You both are chronic accusers, but get all prickly and defensive when you're confronted. If you're man enough to play the race card, be man enough to take the heat...it's that serious. Here's the deal of the day for both you losers...

[Silcc69]

Do you see what I mean robertlouis? Talk about inferiority complex oh well i'm use to this guy so he can keep at it for all I care.

[robertlouis]

LMAO...So now we have a race baiter and a master baiter ganging up on me . The HA version of ebony and ivory, or fric and frack lmao...I don't think I can stand it really. Both you sweethearts like to dish the bullshit but both of you are light in the ass, and light on your facts. You both are chronic accusers, but get all prickly and defensive when you're confronted. If you're man enough to play the race card, be man enough to take the heat...it's that serious. Here's the deal of the day for both you losers...


Nice tits. Did you grow them yourself?

[Prospero]

OnMyKnees - what a joke you are. Enjoy your mad little world.

[robertlouis]

OnMyKnees - what a joke you are. Enjoy your mad little world.

Yes, the sad thing is that he obviously operates under the delusion that anybody actually cares about what he says. Poor lamb.

[Faldur]

OnMyKnees - what a joke you are. Enjoy your mad little world.

Ya, come on OMK you don't think like they do so you are:
A: A Racist
B: Stupid
C: A rich elitist, and just trying to oppress people
D: From North Dakota
E: Too busy loading your guns to have a valid opinion

The list goes on and on.. but we all know if you think differently you are all of the above.

[Silcc69]

Ya, come on OMK you don't think like they do so you are:
A: A Racist
B: Stupid
C: A rich elitist, and just trying to oppress people
D: From North Dakota
E: Too busy loading your guns to have a valid opinion

The list goes on and on.. but we all know if you think differently you are all of the above.

Just replace all of those turn choices A-E into an Asshole and I will agree with that. Listen you and I don't agree on a lot of things but you keep shit in the politics thread. OMK for whatever reason has taken his bad blood with me and has let it carry over in here. Shit I know that people say that arnie666 and russtafa are racist but at least they are funny with there stuff OMK is well his jokes are terrible. BTW you do know how relevant Tim is in this thread?

[BluegrassCat]

Ya, come on OMK you don't think like they do so you are:
A: A Racist
B: Stupid
C: A rich elitist, and just trying to oppress people
D: From North Dakota
E: Too busy loading your guns to have a valid opinion

The list goes on and on.. but we all know if you think differently you are all of the above.

You're right he doesn't think the way we do: he thinks only of advancing the Republican Party and defending conservative causes and leaders with no regard for intellectual honesty. His mental hamster is struggling mightily to turn that wheel but it's only fed a thin gruel of Fox News talking points and Andrew Breitbart propaganda, how could it not struggle? lol

He exemplifies the modern conservative style of argument. Instead of addressing the claims of an argument a conservative must:
A: Engage in character assassination
B: Obfuscate and change the topic
C: Just make stuff up

[fred41]

He exemplifies the modern conservative style of argument. Instead of addressing the claims of an argument a conservative must:
A: Engage in character assassination
B: Obfuscate and change the topic
C: Just make stuff up

you're kidding right?..you think liberals don't do this? You think liberals take the high ground?...
..all sides do A,B &C.

[BellaBellucci]

you're kidding right?..you think liberals don't do this? You think liberals take the high ground?...
..all sides do A,B &C.

This. The left/right dichotomy is completely false. The Dems and Reeps are two sides of the same coin, helping to create a world run by the corporatists at the expense of the individual.

Microsoft, Google, and Apple are the new Christians, Muslims and Jews.

~BB~

[russtafa]

This. The left/right dichotomy is completely false. The Dems and Reeps are two sides of the same coin, helping to create a world run by the corporatists at the expense of the individual.

Microsoft, Google, and Apple are the new Christians, Muslims and Jews.

~BB~wow i am surprised you think outside the box

[Ben]

Good ol' Noam Chomsky explicates the problem(s) with the overall system. How corporate money has undue power over our [corrupt] democratic, so-called democratic, system....
I mean, the erosion of the middle class means the erosion of democracy. But one shouldn't blame corporate institutions. They're doing what they have to do. Which is, actually, the law. The CEO of a company MUST increase investment return. (This, again, is the actual law.) By fighting for, as it were, lower taxes, free capital movement etc. etc. etc.


Noam Chomsky speaks on the "masters of society", and U.S. financial policies, etc.avi - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mMJr38JmjE)

[trish]

This. The left/right dichotomy is completely false. The Dems and Reeps are two sides of the same coin, helping to create a world run by the corporatists at the expense of the individual.

Microsoft, Google, and Apple are the new Christians, Muslims and Jews.

~BB~The Reeps are a wholly owned subsidiary of the corporatists. The Dems just give away the store trying to negotiate with them.

[Faldur]

Good ol' Noam Chomsky explicates the problem

Good to know the socialists have weighed in..

[Faldur]

STEVE MARTIN: Let’s repeat the Non-Conformist Oath. I promise to be different!

AUDIENCE: I promise to be different.

STEVE MARTIN: I promise to be unique.

AUDIENCE: I promise to be unique.

STEVE MARTIN: I promise not to repeat things other people say.

AUDIENCE: I promise … [Dissolves into nervous laughter.]

STEVE MARTIN: Good!

[BellaBellucci]

wow i am surprised you think outside the box

Stop it. You're setting off my sarcasm detector. :lol:

~BB~

[onmyknees]

Just replace all of those turn choices A-E into an Asshole and I will agree with that. Listen you and I don't agree on a lot of things but you keep shit in the politics thread. OMK for whatever reason has taken his bad blood with me and has let it carry over in here. Shit I know that people say that arnie666 and russtafa are racist but at least they are funny with there stuff OMK is well his jokes are terrible. BTW you do know how relevant Tim is in this thread?

LMFAO...Man ...you just don't get it....do you?

[Silcc69]

LMFAO...Man ...you just don't get it....do you?

http://edge.ebaumsworld.com/mediaFiles/picture/527873/80462491.jpg

[onmyknees]

http://edge.ebaumsworld.com/mediaFiles/picture/527873/80462491.jpg



You rhetorically ask others why I don't like you? That's classic. Why don't you ask me....I'd be glad to break it down for you ..........again. Minus the rhetoric, of course. Stop feeling so persecuted....I don't like a lot of people, so you're nothing special, but in your case it's not about your race, it's becase you use race , and used it against me. Should I find the post where you eluded to me as a racist? I take that charge with the severity as if somebody dropped the N bomb on you. Get it? I don't play in the race playground as freely as you do, and I don't find it humorous.
And before complaining to other posters how I go political on the General Boards, find a post where I initiated ( * initiate...to start or begin) political back and forth, and wasn't merely responding to someone who had slipped some politics in..find it.... or stop making the charge.... it's dishonest.
Best to take me off your Party Invite list. I don't like you, and don't respect how you conduct your bussiness on here.
And one more thing....stop baiting me and mentioning me in your posts....there's a word for that !

[Silcc69]

You rhetorically ask others why I don't like you? That's classic. Why don't you ask me....I'd be glad to break it down for you ..........again. Minus the rhetoric, of course. Stop feeling so persecuted....I don't like a lot of people, so you're nothing special, but in your case it's not about your race, it's becase you use race , and used it against me. Should I find the post where you eluded to me as a racist? I take that charge with the severity as if somebody dropped the N bomb on you. Get it? I don't play in the race playground as freely as you do, and I don't find it humorous.
And before complaining to other posters how I go political on the General Boards, find a post where I initiated ( * initiate...to start or begin) political back and forth, and wasn't merely responding to someone who had slipped some politics in..find it.... or stop making the charge.... it's dishonest.
Best to take me off your Party Invite list. I don't like you, and don't respect how you conduct your bussiness on here.
And one more thing....stop baiting me and mentioning me in your posts....there's a word for that !

http://cache.ohinternet.com/images/d/d6/Stfu2.jpg

[russtafa]

:dead:
Stop it. You're setting off my sarcasm detector. :lol:

~BB~well you are the only one i have seen that does not go ape shit on both sides of this

[BellaBellucci]

:dead:well you are the only one i have seen that does not go ape shit on both sides of this

People are waking up. The war is winnable, given enough time. I have faith that the 99% will eventually prevail as we have in the past.

The Jungle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Jungle)

~BB~

[LaCosa]

I kinda like this guy,,, maybe I was wrong about the protesters, he sounds kinda OK


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFz1VVXsWRU




I didn't watch the whole video, only about the first minute and 23 seconds or so into it, and I'd like to acknowledge right away that I'm no economist, political scientist, or authority in any professional field in life.

I have taken 4 courses in economics though. Two were 100 level, basic micro and macro economic courses. One was on developmental economics (e.g., how to grow the economies of developing nations). One was on banking.

What we term "civilizations" will require governments and sophisticated economic systems. In economics innovations can often bring great wealth but also new risks. This is partly what happened in the subprime housing scandal. Republican administration deregulated certain aspects of banking, Wall Street introduced innovations in how they packaged risk (debt) in the housing market, and Democratic administration (Clinton) pushed for easy loans to U.S. citizens with subprime (bad or less than prime credit history) credit.

I supported the Obama administration Kensyian (spelling?) approach to fixing the U.S. economy. Traditionally, it should have worked. However, it does not seem to have worked very well. Thus, new economic theories may emerge. I had a economics professor that believed so.

I'm also not against the Federal Reserve. A Central Bank is often a good thing in any nation. It helps regulate other banks and loan them money. A Central Bank that's not government controlled also provides so checks and balances. Imagine a Central Bank controlled by the Republicans or each new administration?

I'm no political philosopher but it's my opinion that the two party system is a greater harm to the U.S. than the Fed is.

The economy of the U.S. is hurting and likely will never return to what it was when an immediate post-WWII Europe and Japan remained post-industrial cities bombed to hell. It was the glory day of an untouched United States that had a literal monopoly of exporting to the world. We helped rebuild Europe and Japan so we could sell to them and they buy from us.

Today the "developing nations" are rising. Most are no longer under the colonial rule of European nations or the neo-colonial rule of the United States (i.e., Latin America). And multi-national corporations want to be viewed - and function as - global citizens, global corporations, rather than be under the rule or have loyalty to one nation.

We are living in changing times. And the U.S. average standard of living will likely decline.

In some ways it is harder today in the U.S., and in other ways it easier. Our poor live materially easier than our poor did in the first half of the 20th century of the United States. On the other hand, men that never graduated grade school, could work factory jobs in the 1960's that provided them with a large enough wage that their wives did not need to work and they could pay a mortgage, car note, and raise 13 children. Today that is almost impossible. Even those young people with graduate degrees (and massive tuition debt) find it almost impossible to do that.

[lorddigitalhighfixer]

this was primarily organized by anonymous so the main goal is to troll the media. since there's no identifiable leaders to discredit or arrest every idiot who approaches the camera is now the official spokesman and can lay out their manifesto for whatever reasons they are there. this is actually awesome, because every single different message is broadcast attracting more support. pundits on cable news don't know what to do they rightfully look like complete asses trying to figure out what's going on.

the revolution will not be televised

[BigDF]

People are waking up. The war is winnable, given enough time. I have faith that the 99% will eventually prevail as we have in the past.

The Jungle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Jungle)

~BB~I believe you, Bella. I just hope it remains relatively peaceful which would be a significant change from our history.:praying:

[russtafa]

the left or right are not the answer to the problem

[robertlouis]

the left or right are not the answer to the problem

Blimey Russ. That's profound. Can you enlarge on that please? (I'm serious.)

[russtafa]

yeah i don't think the solution is with either factions but maybe some where in the middle.the left and the right chase each other around like a dog chases it's tail.

[robertlouis]

yeah i don't think the solution is with either factions but maybe some where in the middle.the left and the right chase each other around like a dog chases it's tail.

I can agree with that mate. Write the date down! :)

[jefferson1776]

no money, no problems, simple as that

[Prospero]

Love is all you need

[BellaBellucci]

I'm also not against the Federal Reserve. A Central Bank is often a good thing in any nation. It helps regulate other banks and loan them money. A Central Bank that's not government controlled also provides so checks and balances. Imagine a Central Bank controlled by the Republicans or each new administration?

A central bank is also often an awful thing. In fact, the Fed is the leading cause of inflation by printing fiat currency. You don't think that a commodities-based monetary system as we've had in the past (like the gold standard) allows more stability in the economy? Sure, quantitative easing will get you out of a hole if executed properly, but it can also be one's undoing. Not to mention the fact that depending on it so heavily demotivates governments from renegotiating their debts because they figure they can ride the wave until the next bubble begins to expand... and inevitably burst.

And central banking is one of the largest threats to democracy that I've ever seen, as evidenced by 'too big to fail.'

~BB~

[BellaBellucci]

Oh, and also:

http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/315530_261284617240746_123929004309642_715797_1501 939024_n.jpg

~BB~

[Ben]

Can OWS be turned into a Democratic Party movement? (http://www.salon.com/2011/10/11/can_ows_be_turned_into_a_democratic_party_movement/singleton)

By Glenn Greenwald (http://www.salon.com/writer/glenn_greenwald/)
http://media.salon.com/2011/10/OWS4-460x307.jpg (Credit: AP/Salon)



(updated below)
When I first wrote in defense (http://politics.salon.com/2011/09/28/protests_21/) of the Occupy Wall Street protests a couple of weeks ago, I suggested that much of the scorn then being expressed by many progressives was “grounded in the belief that the only valid form of political activism is support for Democratic Party candidates.” Since then, even the most establishment Democrats have fundamentally changed how they talk about the protests — from condescension and hostility to respect and even support — and The New York Times today makes clear one significant factor accounting for this change (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/11/us/politics/wall-street-protests-gain-support-from-leading-democrats.html?_r=1&hp):
Leading Democratic figures, including party fund-raisers and a top ally of President Obama, are embracing the spread of the anti-Wall Street protests in a clear sign that members of the Democratic establishment see the movement as a way to align disenchanted Americans with their party.
The Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee, the party’s powerful House fund-raising arm, is circulating a petition seeking 100,000 party supporters to declare that “I stand with the Occupy Wall Street protests.”
The Center for American Progress, a liberal organization run by John D. Podesta, who helped lead Mr. Obama’s 2008 transition, credits the protests with tapping into pent-up anger over a political system that it says rewards the rich over the working class — a populist theme now being emphasized by the White House and the party. The center has encouraged and sought to help coordinate protests in different cities.
Judd Legum, a spokesman for the center, said that its direct contacts with the protests have been limited, but that “we’ve definitely been publicizing it and supporting it.”
He said Democrats are already looking for ways to mobilize protesters in get-out-the-vote drives for 2012.
Politico similarly noted (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1011/65614.html) today that “the White House wants to make it clear that President Barack Obama is on the same side as the Occupy Wall Street protesters.”
Can that scheme work? Can the Occupy Wall Street protests be transformed into a get-out-the-vote organ of Obama 2012 and the Democratic Party? To determine if this is likely, let’s review a few relevant facts.
In March, 2008, The Los Angeles Times published an article (http://articles.latimes.com/2008/mar/21/nation/na-wallstdems21) with the headline “Democrats are darlings of Wall St“, which reported that both Obama and Clinton “are benefiting handsomely from Wall Street donations, easily surpassing Republican John McCain in campaign contributions.” In June, 2008, Reuters published an article (http://uk.reuters.com/article/2008/06/05/analysis-shares-obama-idUKNOA53525520080605) entitled “Wall Street puts its money behind Obama”; it detailed that Obama had almost twice as much in contributions from “the securities and investment industry” and that “Democrats garnered 57 percent of the contributions from” that industry. When the financial collapse exploded, then-candidate Obama became an outspoken supporter (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0908/13631.html) of the Wall Street bailout.
After Obama’s election, the Democratic Party controlled the White House, the Senate and the House for the first two years, and the White House and Senate for the ten months after that. During this time, unemployment and home foreclosures were painfully high, while Wall Street (http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/11/16/us-wallstreet-profit-idUSTRE6AF4GC20101116) and corporate profits exploded (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/03/25/corporate-profits-2011-all-time-high_n_840538.html), along with income inequality (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/07/opinion/07kristof.html). In July, 2009, The New York Times dubbed (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/19/business/19dimon.html?pagewanted=all) JPMorgan Chase CEO Jamie Dimon “Obama’s favorite banker” because of his close relationship with, and heavy influence on, leading Democrats, including the President. In February, 2010, President Obama defended (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aKGZkktzkAlA) Dimon’s $17 million bonus and the $9 million bonus to Goldman CEO Lloyd Blankfein — both of whose firms received substantial taxpayer bailouts — as fair and reasonable.
The key Senate fundraiser for the Party is Chuck Schumer, whom the New York Times profiled (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/14/business/14schumer.html?pagewanted=all) — in an article headlined “Champion of Wall Street Reaps the Benefits” — as someone who repeatedly supported “measures now blamed for contributing to the financial crisis” and who “took other steps to protect industry players from government oversight and tougher rules” and thus “became a magnet for campaign donations from wealthy industry executives, including Jamie Dimon, now the chief executive of JPMorgan Chase; John J. Mack, the chief executive at Morgan Stanley; and Charles O. Prince III, the former chief executive of Citigroup.” That servitude to Wall Street is what consolidated Schumer’s power in the Party:
As a result, [Schumer] has collected over his career more in campaign contributions from the securities and investment industry than any of his peers in Congress, with the exception of Senator John F. Kerry of Massachusetts . . . In the last two-year election cycle, he helped raise more than $120 million for the Democrats’ Senate campaign committee, drawing nearly four times as much money from Wall Street as the National Republican Senatorial Committee. Donors often mention his “pro-business message” and record of addressing their concerns.
Upon being inaugurated, Obama empowered as his top economic adviser Larry Summers, who had (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/04/03/AR2009040303732.html?hpid=topnews) “collected roughly $5.2 million in compensation from hedge fund D.E. Shaw over the [prior] year and was paid more than $2.7 million in speaking fees by several troubled Wall Street firms and other organizations,” including a fee of $135,000 for a single day of speaking at Goldman, Sachs, and who also led the orgy of Wall Street deregulation (http://www.stanfordalumni.org/news/magazine/2009/marapr/features/born.html) in the 1990s. Obama installed as Treasury Secretary Tim Geithner, whom the New York Times explained (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/27/business/27geithner.html?pagewanted=all) had “forged unusually close relationships with executives of Wall Street’s giant financial institutions.”
When Obama chose him, Geithner had just participated in a secret meeting along with Bush Treasury Secretary Hank Paulson and Goldman Sachs CEO Lloyd Blankfein, at which it was decided (http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/the_best_policy/2009/03/the_real_aig_scandal.html) that a bankrupt AIG would be saved and then — with taxpayer money — would pay Goldman every penny owed to it. Summers, in February, 2009, defended gaudy AIG bonuses (http://politics.salon.com/2009/03/16/aigs_bonus_babies/) as compelled by “the rule of law” even after the administration forced auto union workers to take sizable cuts in their contractually guaranteed pay.
As his Chief of Staff at Treasury, Geithner chose Mark Patterson (http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2009-01-27-lobbyist_N.htm), the former top lobbyist for Goldman, Sachs. Goldman replaced Patterson (http://washingtonexaminer.com/blogs/beltway-confidential/2009/04/former-barney-frank-staffer-now-top-goldman-sachs-lobbyist) with Michael Paese, who at the time was the top staffer to Democratic Rep. Barney Frank in his capacity as Chairman of the House Financial Services Committee, which regulates Wall Street. Obama’s choice to oversee America’s futures markets was Gary Gensler (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/19/business/19gensler.html?ref=politics), a former Goldman Sachs executive who, during the 1990s, was known for his shockingly lax enforcement of regulations governing derivative products. Obama re-appointed (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32545908/ns/business-stocks_and_economy/t/obama-selects-bernanke-second-fed-term/) Bush’s Fed Chair Ben Bernanke, and named CEO of GE Jeffery Immelt to head his panel of jobs advisers, along with several other job-cutting corporate executives (http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-obama-jobs-council-20111010,0,4213847.story).
When Rahm Emanuel — who had made $16 million (http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/politics/obama/chi-rahm-emanuel-profit-26-mar26,0,5682373.story) in three years as an investment banker after leaving the Clinton White House — left as Obama’s Chief of Staff to run for Mayor of Chicago, Obama chose as his replacement Bill Daley, who at the time was serving as JP Morgan’s Midwest Chairman and a director of Boeing. Shortly after Obama’s star director of Office of Management and Budget, Peter Orszag, left the administration, he became a top executive at Citigroup (http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2010/12/an-unfortunate-decision-by-peter-orszag/67822/). The DCCC, recently headed by Emanuel and now feigning support for the protests, is characterized by little other than a strategy of supporting corporatist, Wall-Street-revering “Blue Dog” Democrats (http://crooksandliars.com/john-amato/dccc-has-systemic-problem-and-i-cant-be) as a way of consolidating power.
One of the most significant aspects of the Obama administration is the lack of criminal prosecutions (http://dailybail.com/home/where-are-the-wall-street-prosecutions-gretchen-morgenson-ag.html) for leading Wall Street executives for the 2008 financial crisis. Obama recently opined (http://edgeoforever.wordpress.com/2011/10/06/obama-thinks-wall-street-didnt-break-the-law/) — even while there are supposedly ongoing DOJ investigations — that Wall Street’s corruption was, in general, not illegal. The New York Times recently reported (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/22/business/schneiderman-is-said-to-face-pressure-to-back-bank-deal.html?pagewanted=all) that top Obama officials are heavily pressuring New York State Attorney General Eric Schneiderman to join a woefully inadequate settlement agreement that would end all investigations and litigations against Wall Street firms for pervasive mortgage fraud.
Given these facts, does the Center for American Progress really believe that the protest movement named OccupyWallStreet was begun — and that people are being arrested and pepper-sprayed and ready to endure harsh winters and marching to Jamie Dimon’s house (http://my.firedoglake.com/cindykouril/2011/10/11/ows-cming-home-to-roost/) — in order to devote themselves to ensuring that these people remain in power? Does CAP and the DCCC really believe that most of the protesters are motivated — or can be motivated — to turn themselves into a get-out-the-vote machine for Obama’s re-election and the empowerment of Chuck Schumer and the Democratic Party? Obviously, if when the GOP nominates some crony capitalist like Rick Perry or eager Wall Street servant like Mitt Romney, few if any of the protesters will or should support them, nor can it be denied that the GOP in its current incarnation is steadfastly devoted to a pro-Wall-Street, corporatist agenda. But it also seems to me quite delusional to think that you’re going to exploit this protest as a way “to mobilize protesters in get-out-the-vote drives for 2012″ on behalf of the Democratic Party that I just documented.
Presumably, people who are out protesting and getting arrested are politically astute enough to be aware of some, probably most, of these facts. A rejuvenated outburst of “populist rhetoric” from Obama — a re-reading of the 2008 Change script — just as election season is heating up and Obama again needs progressive enthusiasm to remain in power seems quite unlikely to make people forget all of this.
As Robert Reich recently pointed out (http://politics.salon.com/2011/10/10/democrats_occupy_wall_street/), OWS and the Democratic Party are not exactly natural allies given that “Obama has been extraordinarily solicitous of Wall Street and big business” and that “a big share of both parties’ campaign funds comes from the Street and corporate board rooms.” As Naomi Klein explained (http://www.democracynow.org/2011/10/6/naomi_klein_protesters_are_seeking_change) after speaking to the protesters, the reason they are out on the street rather than working for the DNC or OFA is precisely because they concluded that electoral politics or working for either party will not address the issues motivating them; part of what they’re protesting is the Democratic Party. For an FDL Book Salon discussion this weekend, I reviewed (http://fdlbooksalon.com/2011/10/08/fdl-book-salon-welcomes-lawrence-lessig-republic-lost-a-declaration-for-independence/) Lawrence Lessig’s excellent new book on our corrupted political system, Republic: Lost, and he documents exactly why he transformed from an enthusiastic supporter of his long-time friend and colleague Barack Obama in 2008 into a harsh critic of both parties: because the political system itself has been subverted by oligarchical control. As he put it in his book: : “Democracy on this account seems a show or a rule; power rests elsewhere. . . . the charade is a signal: spend your time elsewhere, because this game is not for real.”
So best of luck to CAP and the DCCC in their efforts to exploit these protests into some re-branded Obama 2012 crusade and to convince the protesters to engage in civil disobedience and get arrested all to make themselves the 2012 street version of OFA. I think they’re going to need it.

UPDATE: Here (http://influenceexplorer.com/industry/securities-investment/0af3f418f426497e8bbf916bfc074ebc?cycle=-1) are the top recipients of campaign donations from the “securities and investment” industry from 1989 through 2010 (h/t muddy thinking (http://politics.salon.com/2011/10/11/can_ows_be_turned_into_a_democratic_party_movement/singleton/undefinedsingleton/#comment-2338742)):

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-qHw0axoddrM/TpSPefciB-I/AAAAAAAAAQQ/wvp8h4zECpM/s640/funding.png (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-qHw0axoddrM/TpSPefciB-I/AAAAAAAAAQQ/wvp8h4zECpM/s1600/funding.png)
Would it not be a bit odd for a protest movement to “Occupy Wall Street” while simultaneously devoting itself to keeping Wall Street’s most lavishly funded politician in power?

[lisaparadise]

you americans kill me lol it only took you people what 3 years to set it up lol and now we have canadians doing it here in toronto on saturday lol and all that tells me is we let far too many people migrate here,maybe i should start a protest about that.the stupid thing is canada never asked nor recieved any bailouts lol these morons dont even know why there gonna be there,what a joke i hope the cops use lots and lots of teargas and maybe kill a few of these nutjobs in the proccess.

[onmyknees]

Can OWS be turned into a Democratic Party movement? (http://www.salon.com/2011/10/11/can_ows_be_turned_into_a_democratic_party_movement/singleton)

By Glenn Greenwald (http://www.salon.com/writer/glenn_greenwald/)
http://media.salon.com/2011/10/OWS4-460x307.jpg (Credit: AP/Salon)



(updated below)
When I first wrote in defense (http://politics.salon.com/2011/09/28/protests_21/) of the Occupy Wall Street protests a couple of weeks ago, I suggested that much of the scorn then being expressed by many progressives was “grounded in the belief that the only valid form of political activism is support for Democratic Party candidates.” Since then, even the most establishment Democrats have fundamentally changed how they talk about the protests — from condescension and hostility to respect and even support — and The New York Times today makes clear one significant factor accounting for this change (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/11/us/politics/wall-street-protests-gain-support-from-leading-democrats.html?_r=1&hp):

Leading Democratic figures, including party fund-raisers and a top ally of President Obama, are embracing the spread of the anti-Wall Street protests in a clear sign that members of the Democratic establishment see the movement as a way to align disenchanted Americans with their party.
The Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee, the party’s powerful House fund-raising arm, is circulating a petition seeking 100,000 party supporters to declare that “I stand with the Occupy Wall Street protests.”
The Center for American Progress, a liberal organization run by John D. Podesta, who helped lead Mr. Obama’s 2008 transition, credits the protests with tapping into pent-up anger over a political system that it says rewards the rich over the working class — a populist theme now being emphasized by the White House and the party. The center has encouraged and sought to help coordinate protests in different cities.
Judd Legum, a spokesman for the center, said that its direct contacts with the protests have been limited, but that “we’ve definitely been publicizing it and supporting it.”
He said Democrats are already looking for ways to mobilize protesters in get-out-the-vote drives for 2012.
Politico similarly noted (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1011/65614.html) today that “the White House wants to make it clear that President Barack Obama is on the same side as the Occupy Wall Street protesters.”
Can that scheme work? Can the Occupy Wall Street protests be transformed into a get-out-the-vote organ of Obama 2012 and the Democratic Party? To determine if this is likely, let’s review a few relevant facts.
In March, 2008, The Los Angeles Times published an article (http://articles.latimes.com/2008/mar/21/nation/na-wallstdems21) with the headline “Democrats are darlings of Wall St“, which reported that both Obama and Clinton “are benefiting handsomely from Wall Street donations, easily surpassing Republican John McCain in campaign contributions.” In June, 2008, Reuters published an article (http://uk.reuters.com/article/2008/06/05/analysis-shares-obama-idUKNOA53525520080605) entitled “Wall Street puts its money behind Obama”; it detailed that Obama had almost twice as much in contributions from “the securities and investment industry” and that “Democrats garnered 57 percent of the contributions from” that industry. When the financial collapse exploded, then-candidate Obama became an outspoken supporter (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0908/13631.html) of the Wall Street bailout.
After Obama’s election, the Democratic Party controlled the White House, the Senate and the House for the first two years, and the White House and Senate for the ten months after that. During this time, unemployment and home foreclosures were painfully high, while Wall Street (http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/11/16/us-wallstreet-profit-idUSTRE6AF4GC20101116) and corporate profits exploded (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/03/25/corporate-profits-2011-all-time-high_n_840538.html), along with income inequality (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/07/opinion/07kristof.html). In July, 2009, The New York Times dubbed (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/19/business/19dimon.html?pagewanted=all) JPMorgan Chase CEO Jamie Dimon “Obama’s favorite banker” because of his close relationship with, and heavy influence on, leading Democrats, including the President. In February, 2010, President Obama defended (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aKGZkktzkAlA) Dimon’s $17 million bonus and the $9 million bonus to Goldman CEO Lloyd Blankfein — both of whose firms received substantial taxpayer bailouts — as fair and reasonable.
The key Senate fundraiser for the Party is Chuck Schumer, whom the New York Times profiled (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/14/business/14schumer.html?pagewanted=all) — in an article headlined “Champion of Wall Street Reaps the Benefits” — as someone who repeatedly supported “measures now blamed for contributing to the financial crisis” and who “took other steps to protect industry players from government oversight and tougher rules” and thus “became a magnet for campaign donations from wealthy industry executives, including Jamie Dimon, now the chief executive of JPMorgan Chase; John J. Mack, the chief executive at Morgan Stanley; and Charles O. Prince III, the former chief executive of Citigroup.” That servitude to Wall Street is what consolidated Schumer’s power in the Party:

As a result, [Schumer] has collected over his career more in campaign contributions from the securities and investment industry than any of his peers in Congress, with the exception of Senator John F. Kerry of Massachusetts . . . In the last two-year election cycle, he helped raise more than $120 million for the Democrats’ Senate campaign committee, drawing nearly four times as much money from Wall Street as the National Republican Senatorial Committee. Donors often mention his “pro-business message” and record of addressing their concerns.
Upon being inaugurated, Obama empowered as his top economic adviser Larry Summers, who had (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/04/03/AR2009040303732.html?hpid=topnews) “collected roughly $5.2 million in compensation from hedge fund D.E. Shaw over the [prior] year and was paid more than $2.7 million in speaking fees by several troubled Wall Street firms and other organizations,” including a fee of $135,000 for a single day of speaking at Goldman, Sachs, and who also led the orgy of Wall Street deregulation (http://www.stanfordalumni.org/news/magazine/2009/marapr/features/born.html) in the 1990s. Obama installed as Treasury Secretary Tim Geithner, whom the New York Times explained (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/27/business/27geithner.html?pagewanted=all) had “forged unusually close relationships with executives of Wall Street’s giant financial institutions.”
When Obama chose him, Geithner had just participated in a secret meeting along with Bush Treasury Secretary Hank Paulson and Goldman Sachs CEO Lloyd Blankfein, at which it was decided (http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/the_best_policy/2009/03/the_real_aig_scandal.html) that a bankrupt AIG would be saved and then — with taxpayer money — would pay Goldman every penny owed to it. Summers, in February, 2009, defended gaudy AIG bonuses (http://politics.salon.com/2009/03/16/aigs_bonus_babies/) as compelled by “the rule of law” even after the administration forced auto union workers to take sizable cuts in their contractually guaranteed pay.
As his Chief of Staff at Treasury, Geithner chose Mark Patterson (http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2009-01-27-lobbyist_N.htm), the former top lobbyist for Goldman, Sachs. Goldman replaced Patterson (http://washingtonexaminer.com/blogs/beltway-confidential/2009/04/former-barney-frank-staffer-now-top-goldman-sachs-lobbyist) with Michael Paese, who at the time was the top staffer to Democratic Rep. Barney Frank in his capacity as Chairman of the House Financial Services Committee, which regulates Wall Street. Obama’s choice to oversee America’s futures markets was Gary Gensler (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/19/business/19gensler.html?ref=politics), a former Goldman Sachs executive who, during the 1990s, was known for his shockingly lax enforcement of regulations governing derivative products. Obama re-appointed (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32545908/ns/business-stocks_and_economy/t/obama-selects-bernanke-second-fed-term/) Bush’s Fed Chair Ben Bernanke, and named CEO of GE Jeffery Immelt to head his panel of jobs advisers, along with several other job-cutting corporate executives (http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-obama-jobs-council-20111010,0,4213847.story).
When Rahm Emanuel — who had made $16 million (http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/politics/obama/chi-rahm-emanuel-profit-26-mar26,0,5682373.story) in three years as an investment banker after leaving the Clinton White House — left as Obama’s Chief of Staff to run for Mayor of Chicago, Obama chose as his replacement Bill Daley, who at the time was serving as JP Morgan’s Midwest Chairman and a director of Boeing. Shortly after Obama’s star director of Office of Management and Budget, Peter Orszag, left the administration, he became a top executive at Citigroup (http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2010/12/an-unfortunate-decision-by-peter-orszag/67822/). The DCCC, recently headed by Emanuel and now feigning support for the protests, is characterized by little other than a strategy of supporting corporatist, Wall-Street-revering “Blue Dog” Democrats (http://crooksandliars.com/john-amato/dccc-has-systemic-problem-and-i-cant-be) as a way of consolidating power.
One of the most significant aspects of the Obama administration is the lack of criminal prosecutions (http://dailybail.com/home/where-are-the-wall-street-prosecutions-gretchen-morgenson-ag.html) for leading Wall Street executives for the 2008 financial crisis. Obama recently opined (http://edgeoforever.wordpress.com/2011/10/06/obama-thinks-wall-street-didnt-break-the-law/) — even while there are supposedly ongoing DOJ investigations — that Wall Street’s corruption was, in general, not illegal. The New York Times recently reported (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/22/business/schneiderman-is-said-to-face-pressure-to-back-bank-deal.html?pagewanted=all) that top Obama officials are heavily pressuring New York State Attorney General Eric Schneiderman to join a woefully inadequate settlement agreement that would end all investigations and litigations against Wall Street firms for pervasive mortgage fraud.
Given these facts, does the Center for American Progress really believe that the protest movement named OccupyWallStreet was begun — and that people are being arrested and pepper-sprayed and ready to endure harsh winters and marching to Jamie Dimon’s house (http://my.firedoglake.com/cindykouril/2011/10/11/ows-cming-home-to-roost/) — in order to devote themselves to ensuring that these people remain in power? Does CAP and the DCCC really believe that most of the protesters are motivated — or can be motivated — to turn themselves into a get-out-the-vote machine for Obama’s re-election and the empowerment of Chuck Schumer and the Democratic Party? Obviously, if when the GOP nominates some crony capitalist like Rick Perry or eager Wall Street servant like Mitt Romney, few if any of the protesters will or should support them, nor can it be denied that the GOP in its current incarnation is steadfastly devoted to a pro-Wall-Street, corporatist agenda. But it also seems to me quite delusional to think that you’re going to exploit this protest as a way “to mobilize protesters in get-out-the-vote drives for 2012″ on behalf of the Democratic Party that I just documented.
Presumably, people who are out protesting and getting arrested are politically astute enough to be aware of some, probably most, of these facts. A rejuvenated outburst of “populist rhetoric” from Obama — a re-reading of the 2008 Change script — just as election season is heating up and Obama again needs progressive enthusiasm to remain in power seems quite unlikely to make people forget all of this.
As Robert Reich recently pointed out (http://politics.salon.com/2011/10/10/democrats_occupy_wall_street/), OWS and the Democratic Party are not exactly natural allies given that “Obama has been extraordinarily solicitous of Wall Street and big business” and that “a big share of both parties’ campaign funds comes from the Street and corporate board rooms.” As Naomi Klein explained (http://www.democracynow.org/2011/10/6/naomi_klein_protesters_are_seeking_change) after speaking to the protesters, the reason they are out on the street rather than working for the DNC or OFA is precisely because they concluded that electoral politics or working for either party will not address the issues motivating them; part of what they’re protesting is the Democratic Party. For an FDL Book Salon discussion this weekend, I reviewed (http://fdlbooksalon.com/2011/10/08/fdl-book-salon-welcomes-lawrence-lessig-republic-lost-a-declaration-for-independence/) Lawrence Lessig’s excellent new book on our corrupted political system, Republic: Lost, and he documents exactly why he transformed from an enthusiastic supporter of his long-time friend and colleague Barack Obama in 2008 into a harsh critic of both parties: because the political system itself has been subverted by oligarchical control. As he put it in his book: : “Democracy on this account seems a show or a rule; power rests elsewhere. . . . the charade is a signal: spend your time elsewhere, because this game is not for real.”
So best of luck to CAP and the DCCC in their efforts to exploit these protests into some re-branded Obama 2012 crusade and to convince the protesters to engage in civil disobedience and get arrested all to make themselves the 2012 street version of OFA. I think they’re going to need it.

UPDATE: Here (http://influenceexplorer.com/industry/securities-investment/0af3f418f426497e8bbf916bfc074ebc?cycle=-1) are the top recipients of campaign donations from the “securities and investment” industry from 1989 through 2010 (h/t muddy thinking (http://politics.salon.com/2011/10/11/can_ows_be_turned_into_a_democratic_party_movement/singleton/undefinedsingleton/#comment-2338742)):

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-qHw0axoddrM/TpSPefciB-I/AAAAAAAAAQQ/wvp8h4zECpM/s640/funding.png (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-qHw0axoddrM/TpSPefciB-I/AAAAAAAAAQQ/wvp8h4zECpM/s1600/funding.png)
Would it not be a bit odd for a protest movement to “Occupy Wall Street” while simultaneously devoting itself to keeping Wall Street’s most lavishly funded politician in power?


Shocking revelation Ben. I'm stupefied as Dr. Phil might say. Are you trying to tell us by virtue of the article you posted, that Dems receive far more than R's in fat cat Wall Street money? That can't be true...That's not what I heard on NBC News. .lol...And if that's the case, how can they then turn around and vilify Wall Street as a political strategy? And further if that's the case, how can they seek to co-op the anti Wall Street protestors if they are the biggest recipient of all the ill gotten gains? Somebody's getting played for a fool here and Something's not adding up Ben....:dancing:

[MdR Dave]

Love is all you need

I wish that were true, Prospero.

Love is an invoice, one way or another. Invoices have to be paid.

[fred41]

Oh, and also:

http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/315530_261284617240746_123929004309642_715797_1501 939024_n.jpg

~BB~


Can OWS be turned into a Democratic Party movement? (http://www.salon.com/2011/10/11/can_ows_be_turned_into_a_democratic_party_movement/singleton)


http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-qHw0axoddrM/TpSPefciB-I/AAAAAAAAAQQ/wvp8h4zECpM/s640/funding.png (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-qHw0axoddrM/TpSPefciB-I/AAAAAAAAAQQ/wvp8h4zECpM/s1600/funding.png)
Would it not be a bit odd for a protest movement to “Occupy Wall Street” while simultaneously devoting itself to keeping Wall Street’s most lavishly funded politician in power?

...it's still going to be a two party system...people adopt their favorite parties and don't want to let go. We become victims of political OCD...often overlooking , or becoming completely blind to anything overly disturbing about our own party.(..or sometimes - easier to understand - choosing the lesser of two evils). Then to rationalize, we'll point at people behind the scenes who seem to wield too much say in gov't (i.e. Koch bros.....or George Soros...do you prefer your party owned by corporations or hedge fund managers...lol)...usually true to some extent, but often ignoring the evil in ones own adopted party of choice.

[russtafa]

you americans kill me lol it only took you people what 3 years to set it up lol and now we have canadians doing it here in toronto on saturday lol and all that tells me is we let far too many people migrate here,maybe i should start a protest about that.the stupid thing is canada never asked nor recieved any bailouts lol these morons dont even know why there gonna be there,what a joke i hope the cops use lots and lots of teargas and maybe kill a few of these nutjobs in the proccess.yeah you are right these people just jump on the band wagon.i agree with some of the things these people say but their methods are shit

[fred41]

yeah you are right these people just jump on the band wagon.i agree with some of the things these people say but their methods are shit

..of course you do...I do to. The reason you agree with some of what they say is because they say EVERYTHING...so we're bound to agree with some of that. :)

...but there are lots of ironies.
One irony is that they purport to represent the working man...but then they often hinder the working man's ability to do his job.

They represent the 99%...but I saw some of that 99%...I had reason to go to Connecticut last monday...and I saw all these little well to do kids leaving their rich suburban houses to go protest in N.Y. with their signs (and Apple products)...as if to say "How cool...I was there..."

[Stavros]

Oh, and also:

http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/315530_261284617240746_123929004309642_715797_1501 939024_n.jpg

~BB~
It is no suurprise that a topic that should be in Politics & Religion is as confused as the Occupy Wall St Movement -I dont know where Bella's graph comes from but it is risible as an explanation of popular protest -corporations do not lobby for government to have more power, they lobby government to reduce it! To reduce taxes and rates, to reduce regulation, to reduce red tape -I mean, it is so elementary I don't know how the graph was even concocted.

The protest is at root a popular protest at the perceived indifference of the banking and monerary system to the real issues of jobs -or the lack of them and concomitant poverty/impoverishment, aggravated by the bonus culture that mocks the climate of austerity we are supposed to be living in. But the monetary and marketing systems of Wall St, London, Frankfurt, Hong Kong and so on, are as critical a part of the capitalist system as Apple and Microsoft and all those other corporations protestors so love to hate. Occupy Wall St -and then what? Even if there was a revolution, within six months the revolutionary government would be begging the commodities traders to come back to -yep, Wall St- and make some money for the USA.

So far in this thread all I have read is resentment, not politics -maybe that's why this confused drivel is in General Discussion, and should not be taken seriously.

[russtafa]

..of course you do...I do to. The reason you agree with some of what they say is because they say EVERYTHING...so we're bound to agree with some of that. :)

...but there are lots of ironies.
One irony is that they purport to represent the working man...but then they often hinder the working man's ability to do his job.

They represent the 99%...but I saw some of that 99%...I had reason to go to Connecticut last monday...and I saw all these little well to do kids leaving their rich suburban houses to go protest in N.Y. with their signs (and Apple products)...as if to say "How cool...I was there..."
hey did they have those stupid hippie street theatre things going it makes me always feel like kicking them.Once a teddy boy always a teddy boy:)

[russtafa]

Hey Lisa you were right about this thing spreading ,it's now happening in london

[fred41]

hey did they have those stupid hippie street theatre things going it makes me always feel like kicking them.Once a teddy boy always a teddy boy:)

:)....not sure what you mean ...and I even googled "teddy boy".

...but I have to admit (...and I'll probably take some heat for this) but if I was a cop...I'd probably want to pepper spray the living shit outta them.

[MdR Dave]

Teddy boys and mods, if I'm not mistaken, were two types of guys in '60s England.

I think Teddy boys dressed like James Dean and mods rode scooters. I have a dim recollection from a passage in "Moon the Loon", a biography of The Who's drummer, and a couple of iconic pics from Life magazine.


Any of the Brits care to correct or expound?

[onmyknees]

I see the protestors are having a rough time of it in Boston. Those Irish cops know how to use those fucking clubs...trust me on that ! Mayor Mumbles Menino isn't playin' nice ! lol

[Silcc69]

Oh, and also:

http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/315530_261284617240746_123929004309642_715797_1501 939024_n.jpg

~BB~

Such a profound chart.

[trish]

The government is the people. Do you feel like you have too much power? Large corporations conspire to attenuate government power; i.e. your power to protect your water, your air, your commons.

[russtafa]

:)....not sure what you mean ...and I even googled "teddy boy".

...but I have to admit (...and I'll probably take some heat for this) but if I was a cop...I'd probably want to pepper spray the living shit outta them.

they were a cult in the eighty's,it was cool for a while then i had to nuckle down and really work .no time for drapes and creepers when you are up to your knees in mud carrying timber

[BluegrassCat]

It is no suurprise that a topic that should be in Politics & Religion is as confused as the Occupy Wall St Movement -I dont know where Bella's graph comes from but it is risible as an explanation of popular protest -corporations do not lobby for government to have more power, they lobby government to reduce it! To reduce taxes and rates, to reduce regulation, to reduce red tape -I mean, it is so elementary I don't know how the graph was even concocted.


So far in this thread all I have read is resentment, not politics -maybe that's why this confused drivel is in General Discussion, and should not be taken seriously.

You hit the nail on the head about the venn diagram.

But in case you weren't aware, almost all politics in America is about resentment.

[robertlouis]

Teddy boys and mods, if I'm not mistaken, were two types of guys in '60s England.

I think Teddy boys dressed like James Dean and mods rode scooters. I have a dim recollection from a passage in "Moon the Loon", a biography of The Who's drummer, and a couple of iconic pics from Life magazine.


Any of the Brits care to correct or expound?

Hi Dave

Teddy boys were an early 50s phenomenon, probably the first time that youngsters in the UK deliberately moved away from dressing like their parents and became "teenagers". The style they copied was their interpretation of how men had dressed in the first decade of the 20th century, which was known as the Edwardian era after Edward VII who rule from 1901 to 1910.

The mods were a cult who dressed in smart casual clothes and had short hair. They often wore parkas and travelled on scooters - Italian Vespas and Lambrettas. Whereas the Teddy boys tended to fight other gangs of teds, the mods' sworn enemies were rockers, who essentially copied the hells angels look, but without the community culture. Smart against grime, if you like. There were pitched battles in English seaside towns between the mods and the rockers in the early to mid-60s, with much hand-wringing and cries of the end of civilisation etc.

The rockers were all about 50s rock'n'roll, the mods embraced bands who dressed much as they did - the Who and the Small Faces both came from the mod scene. And if you want to get a vivid set of images about the mods and rockers battles, get hold of a DVD of the movie "Quadrophenia" which was originally a concept album by the Who. Apart from giving you the flavour of the time, it's actually not a bad film.

Here are some example pics of all three groups, all black and white, because that's what the UK was in the early 60s till the Beatles blew it apart and painted us in bright colours.

Hope that helped a bit.

[russtafa]

Hi Dave

Teddy boys were an early 50s phenomenon, probably the first time that youngsters in the UK deliberately moved away from dressing like their parents and became "teenagers". The style they copied was their interpretation of how men had dressed in the first decade of the 20th century, which was known as the Edwardian era after Edward VII who rule from 1901 to 1910.

The mods were a cult who dressed in smart casual and had short hair. They often wore parkas and travelled on scooters - Italian Vespas and Lambrettas. Whereas the Teddy boys tended to fight other gangs of teds, the mods' sworn enemies were rockers, who essentially copied the hells angels look, but without the community culture. Smart against grime, if you like. There were pitched battles in English seaside towns between the mods and the rockers in the early to mid-60s, with much hand-wringing and cries of the end of civilisation etc.

The rockers were all about 50s rock'n'roll, the mods embraced bands who dressed much as they did - the Who and the Small Faces both came from the mod scene. And if you want to get a vivid set of images about the mods and rockers battles, get hold of a of the movie "Quadrophenia" which was originally a concept album by the Who. Apart from giving you the flavour of the time, it's actually not a bad film.

Here are some example pics of all three groups, all black and white, because that's what the UK was in the early 60s till the Beatles blew it apart and painted us in bright colours.

Hope that helped a bit.i was a young teenager in the eighties when we got into it and fought with the skins and went to rockabilly gigs.great fun mate.lots of piss and dope and slutty chicks and fighting with skins and punks,mods

[Dino Velvet]

i was a young teenager in the eighties when we got into it and fought with the skins and went to rockabilly gigs.great fun mate.lots of piss and dope and slutty chicks and fighting with skins and punks,mods

Weren't you guys all White, Russ? Could you have banded together instead? Stop White on White Crime.

[russtafa]

no mate we had a lot of maori guys in with us and even a few chinese and the same with the other sides but the skins were more white and the maori /islander gangs had a few whites .it was a bit mixed up ,the mods were mainly white and we gathered in big numbers for fights and our parties were great fun lot's of loud rockabilly and sluts and dope and sex and we were always fucking different chicks i don't think society would let kids get away with the things we used to do

[MdR Dave]

From what little I've seen this occupation is ridiculous. They need a little less "Merry Prankster" and a little more "Black Panther".

And an anthem.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?desktop_uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fw atch%3Fv%3DDh-8mw9MKbQ&v=Dh-8mw9MKbQ&gl=US

[BellaBellucci]

The government is the people. Do you feel like you have too much power? Large corporations conspire to attenuate government power; i.e. your power to protect your water, your air, your commons.

And therein lies the problem. The government hasn't been the people for decades, hence IMO, the chart is correct.

I think I just figured out what should be the Occupiers' key issue: campaign finance reform.

~BB~

[Prospero]

Yep - starting with changing the rules which allow a corporation to be counted as an individual

[BellaBellucci]

Yep - starting with changing the rules which allow a corporation to be counted as an individual

I talked about this earlier in the thread I believe. Or maybe it was on my other board?! I'm high. I don't remember.

Corporate personhood - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_personhood)

~BB~

[Prospero]

I talked about this earlier in the thread I believe. Or maybe it was on my other board?! I'm high. I don't remember.

Corporate personhood - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_personhood)

~BB~

well I think we are in agreement on this. Of course I am just watching all this from across the water.

[BellaBellucci]

well I think we are in agreement on this. Of course I am just watching all this from across the water.

Oh, don't worry, you got it right. Just imagine that the corporations are rich tricks and the U.S. government is a high-priced call girl. Also remember that the 'U.S. Government' is in fact a corporation itself. :geek:

US is a Corporation, not a Country. Got a problem with that? - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HfsKO22Ycc)

~BB~

[lisaparadise]

Hey Lisa you were right about this thing spreading ,it's now happening in londonya it only shows me how really stupid people are these days,its not like the war protest in the 60s or MLK protesting all men are created equil oh no these nutjobs dont even know why there there lol ask 100 people who are there and you get 100 different answers its a joke.here in Canada we hardly had a recession and were the first to pull out of in yet these dipshits have the nerve to protest in my country now that really really really pisses me off.

[lisaparadise]

The government is the people. Do you feel like you have too much power? Large corporations conspire to attenuate government power; i.e. your power to protect your water, your air, your commons.not exactly the truth little woman,traditionally the people who have raised the most money run the whitehouse thats just how it is yet you americans cant see that.

[Silcc69]

not exactly the truth little woman,traditionally the people who have raised the most money run the whitehouse thats just how it is yet you americans cant see that.

Shit I see it loud and clear. There is clearly too much money involved in politics and not enough people.

[Stavros]

Yep - starting with changing the rules which allow a corporation to be counted as an individual

Prospero you may be aware that there has been a lively debate for some years about the concept of Corporate Citizenship -there is a fair summary in Wikipedia here:
Corporate citizenship - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_citizenship)

it is a difficult one to grasp because of the different laws that a corporation might then become liable to; consider the complexities, and the time involved in reaching a settlement with Union Carbide over the Bhopal disaster, although many were not satisfied at all with that.
Then there is the additional concept of corporate social responsibility where, for example, a corporation invests in a local community adjacent to its operations.

The idea that the State is a person has been around since the Montevideo Convention of 1933, but is not the same thing.

[Prospero]

I was aware indeed Stavros.

[trish]

And therein lies the problem. The government hasn't been the people for decades, hence IMO, the chart is correct.

I think I just figured out what should be the Occupiers' key issue: campaign finance reform.

~BB~I have to diagree. Our public officials from the president down through both houses to your alderman are elected. If someone remains in office it's the will of the electorate. Of course you can complain that the electorate is stupid or being lied to; but that's another matter. The point is that diminishing the power of our elected officials to tax and regulate only attenuates our power and amplifies that of the large coporatations which wish neither be taxed nor regulated.

[robertlouis]

I have to diagree. Our public officials from the president down through both houses to your alderman are elected. If someone remains in office it's the will of the electorate. Of course you can complain that the electorate is stupid or being lied to; but that's another matter. The point is that diminishing the power of our elected officials to tax and regulate only attenuates our power and amplifies that of the large coporatations which wish neither be taxed nor regulated.

I'm exactly with you Trish. And sadly it's the very people who campaign against big government, and it's largely a phenomenon in the US rather than here, where there's a small but vociferous and occasionally influential faction on the loony right edge of the conservative party, who, if they succeed in their aims, will see corporations rush into any vacuum that's created and turn services that were previously provided as a public good into fuck you for profit schemes. By which time, of course, it will all be too late.

Here in the UK the NHS is currently under threat in a way that it hasn't been since its foundation in 1948, from a government which seems intent on giving the market full sway in a system whose guiding principle has always been to provide treatment free of charge at the point of demand.

[BellaBellucci]

I have to diagree. Our public officials from the president down through both houses to your alderman are elected. If someone remains in office it's the will of the electorate. Of course you can complain that the electorate is stupid or being lied to; but that's another matter. The point is that diminishing the power of our elected officials to tax and regulate only attenuates our power and amplifies that of the large coporatations which wish neither be taxed nor regulated.

Money talks, the voters walk. We're going to have to agree to disagree I guess.

~BB~

[robertlouis]

Money talks, the voters walk. We're going to have to agree to disagree I guess.

~BB~

Isn't the issue here that while government may be incompetent, inefficient and sometimes even venal, the alternative of in effect handing over to government by big corporations is infinitely worse?

[trish]

Well we can agree to disagree, but I do have to say that, "Money talks, the voters walk" is not much of an argument. If you take away the power to tax and regulate, then the monied will have an even greater voice and the walkers will be crippled. To reverse the trend the course is plain and simple.

The real trouble with your Venn diagram, however, is the intersection. The tea baggers are not against big corporations. Look at the tea bagger candidates. Cain is not against the corporations. Rick Perry owes the financial success of his state to big oil, and he never speaks a word against them. The tea baggers are against taxing capital gains, they're against environmental protections, they're against everything big business is against.

Small businesses, want to see middle class gains to increase the demand for products. Large corporations are making record profits, they have already structurally acclimated to the diminished work force and aren't about to hire or create new jobs. But who are the tea baggers siding against? The middle class. The main tea bagger complaint is that the lower and middle classes aren't paying enough taxes and that the so called "job creators" need a continuance of the bush tax break in spite of the fact that it never ever produced jobs.

No, there are scarce few tea baggers who say anything against large corporations.

[BellaBellucci]

Well we can agree to disagree, but I do have to say that, "Money talks, the voters walk" is not much of an argument. If you take away the power to tax and regulate the monied will have an even greater voice and the walkers will be crippled. To reverse the trend the course is plain and simple.

I'm not that kind of Libertarian. I believe in taxing the rich. I also believe in restructuring the tax code into a 'flat tax' or 'fair tax' and abolishing the IRS (and the Fed) in order to do so and as a means to reduce the burden on the middle class. But the most important fiscal policy I believe in, as I've said before, is a commodity-based monetary standard. Fiat currency, the silent tax, is imposed by the super rich (i.e. The Fed), upon every citizen, but it hurts those at the bottom of the economic ladder the most. This debate isn't as simple as just a discussion on tax policy. There are many more aspects to this problem.

I'm not a laissez-faire type; I do believe in minimal regulation, and as I've said many time before in this thread, I strongly disagree with the notion of corporate personhood. Also, I think foreign companies should pay more in taxes for the right to access our economy and our domestic companies should pay more, too, but probably not as much as OWS protesters would like. I mean, look, we got into this crisis because of market manipulation, not because corporate taxes are too low. What really should have happened was prosecutions against those involved and heavy fines levied against the financial industry, not as a penalty for existence (i.e. taxes), but for their wrongdoings (i.e. fines).


The real trouble with your Venn diagram, however, is the intersection. The tea baggers are not against big corporations. Look the the tea bagger candidates. Cain is not against the corporations. Rick Perry owes the financial success of his state to big oil, and he never speaks a word against them. The tea baggers are against taxing capital gains, they're against environmental protections, they're against everything big business is against.

Well, the intersection is the perception of the diagram designer, who is not I, but I also don't see how the diagram argues your point about the Tea Party, which is at one of its ends.


Small businesses, want to see middle class gains to increase the demand for products. Large corporations are making record profits, they have already structurally acclimated to the diminished work force and aren't about to hire or create new jobs. Who are the tea baggers siding against? The middle class. The main tea bagger complaint is that the lower and middle classes are paying enough taxes and that the so called "job creators" need a continuance of the bush tax break in spite of the fact that it never ever produced jobs. No, there are scare few tea baggers who say anything against large corporations.

I think the tax cuts should be based on hiring incentives. If you add that slight condition to the Tea Party position, then that position gains a lot more standing. Hopefully it willl see that as it continues forward, particularly as it watches what it probably considers an opposition movement in OWS.

It's all about happy mediums.

~BB~

[trish]

We disagree on the fairness of a flat tax. The cost of the necessities for life (food, water, shelter etc.) do not rise in proportion to one’s income. Hence the difference between income and the real cost of living increases as one goes up the income ladder. That is why a flat tax is inherently unfair. A ten percent tax on a secretary bringing in $15000.00 a year is much more onerous than a ten percent tax on someone bringing in $1000000.00 a year. As the years go by not only does the economic disparity increase but the disparity in power (as you say, “Money talks”). I see the only advantage of a flat tax is it makes loops holes more difficult to create and navigate, but at the expense of exacerbating the problem it is meant to solve: disparity in political power.

I’m not sure how tax breaks based on hiring incentives would work, especially if you’re for a flat tax. Business have a finite employee capacity which when saturated cannot be profitably inflated. So the growing businesses which can hire because they are not yet operating at capacity get the tax break, but the mature business which are operating at capacity don’t. It’s a fix, but it’s a fix that creates just the sort of loophole a flat tax is supposed to avoid.

Addendum: Sorry about the typo in the previous post: The teabagger complaint is that the middle class is NOT paying enough taxes. They are actually for increasing the tax burden on the middle class while continuing to give profiteers a break.

[BellaBellucci]

We disagree on the fairness of a flat tax. The cost of the necessities for life (food, water, shelter etc.) do not rise in proportion to one’s income. Hence the difference between income and the real cost of living increases as one goes up the income ladder. That is why a flat tax is inherently unfair. A ten percent tax on a secretary bringing in $15000.00 a year is much more onerous than a ten percent tax on someone bringing in $1000000.00 a year. As the years go by not only does the economic disparity increase but the disparity in power (as you say, “Money talks”). I see the only advantage of a flat tax is it makes loops holes more difficult to create and navigate, but at the expense of exacerbating the problem it is meant to solve: disparity in political power.

I’m not sure how tax breaks based on hiring incentives would work, especially if you’re for a flat tax. Business have a finite employee capacity which when saturated cannot be profitably inflated. So the growing businesses which can hire because they are not yet operating at capacity get the tax break, but the mature business which are operating at capacity don’t. It’s a fix, but it’s a fix that creates just the sort of loophole a flat tax is supposed to avoid.

Addendum: Sorry about the typo in the previous post: The teabagger complaint is that the middle class is NOT paying enough taxes. They are actually for increasing the tax burden on the middle class while continuing to give profiteers a break.

Good points about the flat tax. I'd make two caveats then: a high threshold for the tax, much more than your example of $15,000/year, and a separate tax system for corporations, used to encourage beneficial behavior and penalize the negative. Again, the most important move that can be made here is that we should actually start treating corporations like corporations.

~BB~

[BigDF]

One of the things I've been noticing on the news lately is GOP and their bosses beginning to talk about the "free market" again which is amusing because back in 2008 no one on that side of politics mentioned anything about that. I'm no economic guru, I had a class on economics in college where I saw a movie that stated that Hong Kong was an excellent example of the free market in practice. I can't remember much of the movie except that the residential area began on boats in the harbor and headed up the hillside. Given the fact that I'm retired on disability, something tells me that in the free market economy I'd be living on a boat right now.:geek:

[Bobby Domino]

Add this to the list: WSJ accused of unorthodox boost to circulation

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44879240/ns/business-us_business/t/wsj-accused-unorthodox-boost-circulation/?gt1=43001#.TpYdFnOlCPB

[russtafa]

there is now talk of this neo hippie rent a crowd protesting out side of our stock exchange in Sydney.i would love to see these wankers try to piss off the hells angels or rebels they piss off the general public

[trish]

Who is renting the crowd? Can you prove they're bought? How are they being paid? Do you know at all what you're talking about? Prove it.

[BrendaQG]

As someone who has been politically active who has volunteered for our local LGBT health clinic, as well as been at Tea Party rallies there is only one thing I can say to OWS.

We told you so.

We opposed the bailouts and said let the banks fail.

You said, we can't let the banks fail we need stimulus and TARP.

Well the banks got bailed out, then everyone got sold out, and we wonder who's to blame.

BOTH THE RHINO BUSH AND THE CONSERVADEM OBAMA ARE IN THE POCKETS OF THEIR MONEY'D MASTERS. AS LONG AS BIG MEDIA, BIG CORPS, BIG UNIONS, ETC...CAN CONTROL WHAT WE SEE AND HEAR THIS WILL BE THE CASE.

The only honest politicians I know are ironically here in the state of Illinois, our Democratic governor Pat Quinn, and our Republican Senator Mark Kirk (Who unlike our democrat senator Durbin helped me with getting a correctly marked passport inspite of an obstinate bureaucrat).

The bottom line is... sit back and enjoy the show. At the core most of it is media managed, media imagined BS. Most people I know are either working, or looking for work. While the majority of OWS protesters are white yuppie spawn who have no money issues themselves. (The tea party had as it's core also people who had the money and time to devote themselves to activism. Some of them are even the same exact people. )

[Stavros]

More people join threads when they are in General Discussion than in Politics & Religion, perhaps they are intimidated by the title. The problem is that the quality of argument is desperately poor. We all live in capitalist societies, yet few seem to understand how what is all around us works; there is an obsession with taxes, and particularly corporations when small to medium-sized firms are everywhere and all around us and are just as much a part of the economy, and even then what people say about corporations is incoherent, bizarre, resentful -as someone at least acknowledged- and unhelpful. Western Europe and North America no longer dominate global capitalist production, are unlikely to do so for decades to come, and we have to adjust, just as we have to adjust to a global decline in oil and cycles of extreme weather. While I understand the frustrations of OWS and even the Tea Party, its not my scene, its noise, and in any case, OWS also stands for One Way Street, protests going nowhere. But then I don't expect to read any stimulating solutions to our problems in this thread anyway.

[BrendaQG]

there is an obsession with taxes, and particularly corporations when small to medium-sized firms are everywhere and all around us and are just as much a part of the economy, and even then what people say about corporations is incoherent, bizarre, resentful -as someone at least acknowledged- and unhelpful.

How do most of us know about OWS, Who told us? The mainstream broadcast, TV radio or internet media. Who owns that? Corporations. Why would the corporate media ever report on small enterprise as if it were a real viable part of the economy.

Instead of begging big corps for a job, allot of people I know are hiring themselves (not always legally). I almost have more respect for a drug pusher hustling for his bread than for some of the glorified beggars that are these protestors. ("Oh what will we do when we graduate from our college")

[russtafa]

Who is renting the crowd? Can you prove they're bought? How are they being paid? Do you know at all what you're talking about? Prove it.paid by the communist party and al Queda and woodstock neo hippie theatre

[Dino Velvet]

paid by the communist party and al Queda and woodstock neo hippie theatre

Do the Al Qaeda and Hezbollah guys in the crowd get along or are they catty about their Sunni and Shiite differences?

[russtafa]

no once to sunny and the other's to shitt

[OmarZ]

Do they Al Qaeda and Hezbollah guys in the crowd get along or are they catty about their Sunni and Shiite differences?

lol, good one dino

[russtafa]

do you reckon these young protesting blokes ever belonged to any gangs or bad outfits Dino?

[BigDF]

there is now talk of this neo hippie rent a crowd protesting out side of our stock exchange in Sydney.i would love to see these wankers try to piss off the hells angels or rebels they piss off the general publicPerhaps in Australia, but not over here. For the most part they are the general public and they are already pissed off. That is why this movement is spreading around the country.

Stavros, you're correct in your assumption that no real solutions will be offered on here. These demonstrations are a peaceful(so far) release of pent up frustration with the way our country is changing. Since this change has been taking place over the last twenty years, reversing it will take at least that long, if reversal is possible at all.:geek:

[russtafa]

our rent a crowd look like they have not seen a shower for months but seen a lot of drugs and dole payments

[Willie Escalade]

It's going to be interesting Friday the 15th...

[Prospero]

Some of the comments posted here about the protesters remind me of the remarks by the late (and unlamented) VP to Tricky Dicky, Spiro T Agnew who called the four young and unarmed anti vietnam war protesters shot dead by the National Guard at Kent State in Ohio "Campus bums". This was before Agnew was caught with his hand in the till - alongside the bigger crimes of his boss.

[lisaparadise]

[QUOTE=BrendaQG;1023184]As someone who has been politically active who has volunteered for our local LGBT health clinic, as well as been at Tea Party rallies there is only one thing I can say to OWS.
QUOTE] your trans and your a tea party member?seriously?most of the world sees a tea partier as a racist southern baptist nutjob who totally fucked up congress so bad that nothing got done.let me make it crystal clear for you tea party fuck ups its your fault your still in a reccession not obamas,obama has been pushing his infrastrusure bill since god knows when and cant get it through the tea party morons meanwhile thousands of people are out of works,you have a bill sitting ready to be passed to finish a pipeline from canada to the u.s. that will create 1000s of jobs not to mention cheaper oil but no the tea party fuck ups just sit on there asses till the next election and then there gone,you see the tea party is nothing but a glorified bunch of protesters trying to make a point,well they made there point now get them out of there and elect a majority of democrats and get things moving.

[Silcc69]

[QUOTE=BrendaQG;1023184]As someone who has been politically active who has volunteered for our local LGBT health clinic, as well as been at Tea Party rallies there is only one thing I can say to OWS.
QUOTE] your trans and your a tea party member?seriously?most of the world sees a tea partier as a racist southern baptist nutjob who totally fucked up congress so bad that nothing got done.let me make it crystal clear for you tea party fuck ups its your fault your still in a reccession not obamas,obama has been pushing his infrastrusure bill since god knows when and cant get it through the tea party morons meanwhile thousands of people are out of works,you have a bill sitting ready to be passed to finish a pipeline from canada to the u.s. that will create 1000s of jobs not to mention cheaper oil but no the tea party fuck ups just sit on there asses till the next election and then there gone,you see the tea party is nothing but a glorified bunch of protesters trying to make a point,well they made there point now get them out of there and elect a majority of democrats and get things moving.

Brenda is the most unique person on here.

http://www.intersexualite.org/Hontas-Farmer.html#anchor_8

[BigDF]

Some of the comments posted here about the protesters remind me of the remarks by the late (and unlamented) VP to Tricky Dicky, Spiro T Agnew who called the four young and unarmed anti vietnam war protesters shot dead by the National Guard at Kent State in Ohio "Campus bums". This was before Agnew was caught with his hand in the till - alongside the bigger crimes of his boss.Ahh, yes, good old Spiro. Remember him well. Ancient history for others on here.

I'm getting a real kick out of the use of the term "hippie" by some on here as well. A quick search on the word would lead to the realization that OWS protestors are not hippies at all. :geek:

[russtafa]

Ahh, yes, good old Spiro. Remember him well. Ancient history for others on here.

I'm getting a real kick out of the use of the term "hippie" by some on here as well. A quick search on the word would lead to the realization that OWS protestors are not hippies at all. :geek:in Australia they are the rent a crowd/afraid of soap and water people.they do piss people off with their bullshit antics and they are always at these kind of protests because they don't work for a living and don't want to

[Dino Velvet]

in Australia they are the rent a crowd/afraid of soap and water people.they do piss people off with their bullshit antics and they are always at these kind of protests because they don't work for a living and don't want to

You got folks like this?

[Bobby Domino]

You got folks like this?

ha ha ha haa!!! Looks like my high school graduating class.

What, Dino, are you on your lunch break? I posted a few things for you.....

[Clind]

Do you realizing that the big crisis that is coming is going to change completely the social status in Europe, USA and everywhere?

the "end of history" ended very quickly

[Dino Velvet]

ha ha ha haa!!! Looks like my high school graduating class.

What, Dino, are you on your lunch break? I posted a few things for you.....

I'm always out to lunch, Bobby. I'm own income property. Unless a pipe bursts, the roof falls in, or someone tries not to pay things are pretty good and I make my own hours. I'm basically Ralph Furley but more of a pervert.

http://www.sitcomsonline.com/photopost/data/932/3donknotts2.jpg http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_GC6hRdzZCcQ/Ru9Fd_P1CnI/AAAAAAAAB64/4rTK0btDcFY/s320/egads%21.jpg

[russtafa]

You got folks like this?

hey Dino is the bloke at the top "HUNGANGELS" own Hippie.Yeah mate we have a few that look like that or worse and there's three things they hate ,soap and water and work

[Bobby Domino]

I'm always out to lunch, Bobby. I'm own income property. Unless a pipe bursts, the roof falls in, or someone tries not to pay things are pretty good and I make my own hours. I'm basically Ralph Furley but more of a pervert.

"Out to lunch" - I miss that expression. *wiping the crumbs off my face*

I'm sure your properties are very safe, with all the "surveillance" being done.

[Dino Velvet]

"Out to lunch" - I miss that expression. *wiping the crumbs off my face*

I'm sure your properties are very safe, with all the "surveillance" being done.

I always know what color panties my female tenants are wearing and when they have their "period underwear" on as well.

[Bobby Domino]

I always know what color panties my female tenants are wearing and when they have their "period underwear" on as well.

LOL!!! They don't have to pay extra for that service, hey? It's just part of the job. Speaking of Mr. Furley, how about a "Three's Company" - which is the greatest sit-com of all-time - where Chrissy was hiding a cock?
That would have extended the show a couple of seasons.... What was Jack's friend's name again?

[Dino Velvet]

LOL!!! They don't have to pay extra for that service, hey? Speaking of Mr. Furley, how about a "Three's Company" - which is the greatest sit-com of all-time - where Chrissy was hiding a cock?
That would have extended the show a couple of seasons.... What was Jack's friend's name again?

Jack's friend was Larry, right? Didn't the Regal Beagal have a Tuesday T-Girl Night hosted by Sulka back then?

[Bobby Domino]

Jack's friend was Larry, right? Didn't the Regal Beagal have a Tuesday T-Girl Night hosted by Sulka back then?

In my scenario, Larry would be the sly fox who knew her secret and took advantage of it.

[Dino Velvet]

In my scenario, Larry would be the sly fox who knew her secret and took advantage of it.

Larry would accidentally kill her and the cover-up is where the comedy begins. Suzanne Somers had to be written off some way.

[Bobby Domino]

Larry would accidentally kill her and the cover-up is where the comedy begins. Suzanne Somers had to be written off some way.

Then Janet would feel lonely and leave Jack clues throughout the apt.
Jack: "Hey Janet, what are panties, a wig & lipstick doing in the oven?"
Janet: "I don't know Jack, but why don't you try them on..."

[Dino Velvet]

Then Janet would feel lonely and leave Jack clues throughout the apt.
Jack: "Hey Janet, what are panties, a wig & lipstick doing in the oven?"
Janet: "I don't know Jack, but why don't you try them on..."

Janet should have been more of a psycho on the show like Joyce DeWitt in real life. I'd have made her crazier than Margot Kidder.

http://ll-media.tmz.com/2009/07/06/0706_dewitt_mug_exm_2-1.jpg

[Bobby Domino]

Janet should have been more of a psycho on the show like Joyce DeWitt in real life. I'd have made her crazier than Margot Kidder.

http://ll-media.tmz.com/2009/07/06/0706_dewitt_mug_exm_2-1.jpg

Janet seemed a bit off-kilter. Personally, she practiced satanic rituals behind the dumpsters. You never saw a cat on that show and no Asian characters to blame it on

[Ben]

Reuters: George Soros is secretly behind Occupy Wall Street! (http://politics.salon.com/2011/10/13/reuters_george_soros_is_secretly_behind_occupy_wal l_street/singleton)

A laughably bad attempt at linking the protest movement to a liberal boogeyman

By Alex Pareene (http://politics.salon.com/writer/alex_pareene/)

http://media.salon.com/2011/10/soros-460x307.jpg George Soros, left. Right: A young woman holds up a sign as passersby take in the scene at the Occupy Wall Street headquarters at Zuccotti Park in New York, Tuesday, Oct. 11, 2011. (Credit: AP/Stefan Wermuth, Reuters)

Who is responsible for Occupy Wall Street? Is it a protest initially organized by longtime anti-consumerist magazine Adbusters that grew in size and scope (with the support of members of the Anonymous collective) due to widespread frustration about economic injustice, leading organized labor and other left-wing groups to sign on in solidarity? Yes. But for some journalists, that is a very boring answer. So Reuters attempts to “follow the money” (http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/10/13/us-wallstreet-protests-origins-idUSTRE79C1YN20111013?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews&rpc=71) (there is not really that much money involved; it’s not like they’ve launched a targeted ad buy or something), leading them straight into Glenn Beck nonsense-land. It turns out that Occupy Wall Street… is funded by George Soros!
Mark Egan and Michelle Nichols have written a very sloppy piece that starts off saying “Soros Soros Soros” but then basically admits that it can’t really justify making the connection. It begins:
Anti-Wall Street protesters say the rich are getting richer while average Americans suffer, but the group that started it all may have benefited indirectly from the largesse of one of the world’s richest men.
OK, the formulation there implies some sort of hypocrisy, but how is they claim the existence of economic inequity, but a rich person may have helped them remotely contradictory, exactly? What a lame attempt at a gotcha. “The protesters claim there are tens of millions of Americans out of work but some of them have had jobs.”
It gets worse:
There has been much speculation over who is financing the disparate protest, which has spread to cities across America and lasted nearly four weeks. One name that keeps coming up is investor George Soros, who in September debuted in the top 10 list of wealthiest Americans. Conservative critics contend the movement is a Trojan horse for a secret Soros agenda.
Hm. Does that name “keep coming up”? Just randomly, passively appearing from the ether? “George Soros” in a little cartoon speech bubble repeatedly materialized over lower Broadway, and these intrepid reporters couldn’t help but notice.
Here’s the big claim that this entire piece rests on:
Soros and the protesters deny any connection. But Reuters did find indirect financial links between Soros and Adbusters, an anti-capitalist group in Canada which started the protests with an inventive marketing campaign aimed at sparking an Arab Spring type uprising against Wall Street. Moreover, Soros and the protesters share some ideological ground.
SOROS DID OCCUPY WALL STREET.

Here are those “indirect financial links”: Soros donated a bunch of money to the Tides Foundation. The Tides Foundation gives grants to hundreds of progressive organizations and causes. It has given $185,000 in grants to Adbusters over the last decade. Ho ho! So Soros used Tides to mask his secret donation to Adbusters, right? That seems… improbable. Here’s a PDF list (http://www.tides.org/fileadmin/user/pdf/Tides-Foundation-List-of-Grantees-2010.pdf) of Tides Foundation grantees from 2010 alone. It’s a 42-page document. You can download its grantee lists going back to 2004 here. (http://www.tides.org/impact/grantees/) Soros donated a bunch of his money to Tides because it broadly supports causes he supports, and the point of donating to Tides is that it does the work of finding worthy recipients of your money, so you don’t have to.
So the financial “connection” is not that compelling. But I guess we still have the fact that Soros and the protesters “share some ideological ground” to justify publishing this. That’s good enough for a Drudge link!
Aides to Soros say any connection is tenuous and that Soros has never heard of Adbusters. Soros himself declined comment.
“Aides to Soros say” that, because it is objectively true that the connection is tenuous. This is like some awful parody of how false objectivity skews news reporting at traditional press outlets. Either Reuters worked backwards to establish a Soros connection and then published the piece even when that connection proved to be laughably far-fetched or it shamelessly sexed up a very dry story about the origins of the protest by sticking Soros’ name on top. Either way, not a good look.
Guess what? Thanks to Reuters, “Soros is secretly responsible for Occupy Wall Street” will become an official right-wing “fact” about the movement, forever.

[Ben]

Jeffrey Sachs on War Spending - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coRdxZeriq8)

Economist Jeffrey Sachs talks about President obama Raising Money For Next Election - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDCrlBY5fC8)

[Ben]

(http://www.getmoneyout.com/)

[Ben]

Jeffrey Sachs (Columbia University professor) Supports Occupy Wall Street - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8svbm4WYmU)

[russtafa]

it's just lucky these wankers are not blocking a biker bar or there would be a few dead dickheads

[Jonny29]

I don't know. I spoke with a number of them in Washington square park(NYC) To call them wankers is kind of rough based on the individuals I met. The more they spoke the more I may have disagreed ( due to a large number of them saying they want all loans forgiven) thought they were naive but the protest in and of itself was peaceful. So I give them credit for that. It only takes a couple of wankers, as you put it to ruin the whole movement. But on this particular day it did not happen. Some were unhinged and disrespectful and some were thoughtful and respectful. Just like the human race in general.

[MdR Dave]

Washington Square Park likely had a large concentration of NYU students- they'll definitely want loan forgiveness!

However, kids of folks in Congress don't have to pay back student loans. . .

I still expect this whole thing to dissipate without event or redress of any grievances- and if not, to provoke a measured and defensible action by authorities of the nation-state

The movements of the mid 20th century were successful because they didn't threaten the core of the underlying capitalistic structure. Important changes, but not fundamental.

The issues today are fundamental but the occupation is trying to work from the top down. You want to change government and the structure of power? Take the power, become the government. That's how it happens, whether you work within the system or try to destroy it from without.

It also takes a plan, an expressed and unifying statement of mission, and leaders.

This is real life, not a fucking flash mob.

[Dino Velvet]

No more Three's Company talk?

[MdR Dave]

No more Three's Company talk?
I don't get that one.

[Dino Velvet]

I don't get that one.

We were taking about the show this afternoon. I think it was the page before. Any 1970s sit-com will do though.

[MdR Dave]

We were taking about the show this afternoon. I think it was the page before. Any 1970s sit-com will do though.

Thank goodness- I was afraid the protesters had started talking smack about Mr. Furley.

[Dino Velvet]

Thank goodness- I was afraid the protesters had started talking smack about Mr. Furley.

Don Knotts is an American treasure. If they say anything I'll beat them with their own tambourine.

http://aphs.worldnomads.com/blue_skies/10903/tambourine_man.jpg

[MdR Dave]

Don Knotts is an American treasure. If they say anything I'll beat them with their own tambourine.

http://aphs.worldnomads.com/blue_skies/10903/tambourine_man.jpg

Damn skippy, Dino- count me in when the $hit jumps off.

[Bobby Domino]

I got here too late!!!

(Hey Dino, I have an idea for a new sig, but I can't add images to my sig - it says so at the bottom. I need to talk to an administrator or something. Who do I talk to???? THX in advance, man)

[Dino Velvet]

I got here too late!!!

(Hey Dino, I have an idea for a new sig, but I can't add images to my sig - it says so at the bottom. I need to talk to an administrator or something. Who do I talk to???? THX in advance, man)

I have no idea. I never really interact with them.

[Bobby Domino]

I have no idea. I never really interact with them.

Well that's a bunch of horse shit. I think I'm still relatively a newbie on the site or something. Maybe members get certain restrictions lifted after a certain amount of time or number of posts. Who knows...

I took this picture in my neighborhood. Instant classic!!! I wanted to use it as my sig: Something seasonal (maybe I'll just add it to my captions thread)


426949
Happy Hallo - burp, oopps excuse me - Halloween!!

[BigDF]

Washington Square Park likely had a large concentration of NYU students- they'll definitely want loan forgiveness!

However, kids of folks in Congress don't have to pay back student loans. . .

I still expect this whole thing to dissipate without event or redress of any grievances- and if not, to provoke a measured and defensible action by authorities of the nation-state

The movements of the mid 20th century were successful because they didn't threaten the core of the underlying capitalistic structure. Important changes, but not fundamental.

The issues today are fundamental but the occupation is trying to work from the top down. You want to change government and the structure of power? Take the power, become the government. That's how it happens, whether you work within the system or try to destroy it from without.

It also takes a plan, an expressed and unifying statement of mission, and leaders.

This is real life, not a fucking flash mob.You make some good points, MRDave(good name BTW)but this thing is starting to gel some and may become even more powerful after this morning. According to what I am seeing on the news, the owners of the park intend to evict the protestors, by force if necessary. The reason for this has been stated that the owners wish to clean the park and lay down some new rules about camping and sleeping there. The protestors are vowing to stay and are already at work cleaning the park themselves. They are also talking about forming a human chain around the park with mops and brooms, linking arms to prevent the police from evicting the demonstrators.

It's possible that there are leaders within the movement already planning something and considering it's Friday, I suspect there will be a groundswell of support from others in the area. It is not inconceivable to me that the rank and file of the NYPD will not obey orders to use force, since they could be considered to be members of the 99% as well as the protestors. As for taking the government and the power, that remains to be seen. This is little more than a beginning of the change that's coming, whether we like it or not.:geek:

[Prospero]

Talking signatures... here is an avatar for Dino. i gift it to him.....

[BigDF]

Talking signatures... here is an avatar for Dino. i gift it to him.....Speaking of avatars, Prospero, who is that in yours. Looks like he's wearing the Blue Max.:)

[Prospero]

Baron von Richoften - the red baron

[russtafa]

Jeffrey Sachs (Columbia University professor) Supports Occupy Wall Street - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8svbm4WYmU)well Ben the strangest thing has happened .i agree with you on most points i thought this would be impossible but it's happened

[Faldur]

Fine bunch of youngsters they are, harassing and spitting on a young lady in a coast guard uniform.

Boston Protesters spit (http://www.myfoxboston.com/dpp/news/local/occupy-boston-protesters-spit-on-coast-guard-member-20111013)

[Silcc69]

Fine bunch of youngsters they are, harassing and spitting on a young lady in a coast guard uniform.

Boston Protesters spit (http://www.myfoxboston.com/dpp/news/local/occupy-boston-protesters-spit-on-coast-guard-member-20111013)

Oh come on Faldur, you had tea party member booing a gay soldier in a debate a few weeks ago.

Anyways Immortal Technique

Video: Speaking Truth: Immortal Technique Interview At Occupy Wall Street & He Goes In! (http://www.worldstarhiphop.com/videos/video.php?v=wshh08TGU2n2282aKE2S)

[trish]

Oh come on Faldur, you had tea party member booing a gay soldier in a debate a few weeks ago.

Anyways Immortal Technique

Video: Speaking Truth: Immortal Technique Interview At Occupy Wall Street & He Goes In! (http://www.worldstarhiphop.com/videos/video.php?v=wshh08TGU2n2282aKE2S)

And that was a whole audience of people who were supposedly open to hearing a debate, not just a handful of youngsters!

[fred41]

How does that excuse it?...are we going to compare what happens at different protests now...I'll call shitting on a police car and raise you a racist sign?

[Nicole Dupre]

I love this guy. :-)

Alex Jones (and some other alt. media) = useless F*CKS; and education for idiots - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMb5Ia8HJyk)

[Silcc69]

How does that excuse it?...are we going to compare what happens at different protests now...I'll call shitting on a police car and raise you a racist sign?

It doesn't excuse it at all but both sides have there shitty people.

[fred41]

I love this guy. :-)


...I guess he really, really doesn't like Alex Jones (didn't even know who he was before he mentioned him..)

[fred41]

It doesn't excuse it at all but both sides have there shitty people.

Regardless of the "debates" you guys have in the political section..there are more than just two sides...most of us are somewhere in the middle...

...and if by side you mean Democrat and Republican...then it's moot because the OWS protest isn't supposed to be representative of a political party.

[Silcc69]

Regardless of the "debates" you guys have in the political section..there are more than just two sides...most of us are somewhere in the middle...

True true but sadly only 2 sides really matter. All of the other sides get tossed aside and we ended up being in this current mess do to this corrupt 2 party system that we have.

[jerseyboy72]

Wow , I just watched the Immortal Technique video. I was expecting a goof ball, but he is actually a pretty sharp guy.

[fred41]

Wow , I just watched the Immortal Technique video. I was expecting a goof ball, but he is actually a pretty sharp guy.

Well he did attend Hunter College High School (I looked him up)...they don't just take anyone...you have to be very,very sharp.

[Clind]

Wow , I just watched the Immortal Technique video. I was expecting a goof ball, but he is actually a pretty sharp guy.
hi, do you have your avatar in larger version?
it looks like a great picture :rock2

[jerseyboy72]

hi, do you have your avatar in larger version?
it looks like a great picture :rock2

Here u go.

[jerseyboy72]

Well he did attend Hunter College High School (I looked him up)...they don't just take anyone...you have to be very,very sharp.

He does lose some points for wearing a t shirt with his name on it.

[fred41]

He does lose some points for wearing a t shirt with his name on it.

:)...you're right.

[Bobby Domino]

for shits & giggles ( I can't read what her fingers say)

427906

[Stavros]

Looks like Tuff Lurv from right to left as we see her -she looks like the femboi in Seanchai's latest avatar...

[maxpower]

for shits & giggles ( I can't read what her fingers say)

I think her fingers read, "TUFF GURL"

[Bobby Domino]

I think her fingers read, "TUFF GURL"

maxpower's right. Well, at least, it's the most promising....

[onmyknees]

And that was a whole audience of people who were supposedly open to hearing a debate, not just a handful of youngsters!

LMAO....Maybe try listening to the tape Trish?? As I told you on the political boards, there were 6000 people in the arena a few yahoos booed. I would venture to say if you selected 6000 of the OWS protesters randomly, you'd find more than a few anti Semites, garden variety anarchists, communists, and squeegee men...Shame on them but morons are morons...no matter if they're walking around Manhattan with inane signs written on cardboard beer cases and spitting at people or attending a political debate and booing a vet. You're getting lots of mileage out of some jerks booing. Move on.

[Stavros]

Yes, Gurl not Lurv....I guess its an improvment on Love and Hate...

[Silcc69]

Hmmmm
Video: 1 Marine vs. 30 Cops: Marine Punks NYPD Cops! (http://www.worldstarhiphop.com/videos/video.php?v=wshh7475FAFF0g9E91d2)

[BellaBellucci]

Hmmmm
Video: 1 Marine vs. 30 Cops: Marine Punks NYPD Cops! (http://www.worldstarhiphop.com/videos/video.php?v=wshh7475FAFF0g9E91d2)

I reposted this on my Facebook wall earlier. This guy is my fucking hero!

~BB~

[Silcc69]

I reposted this on my Facebook wall earlier. This guy is my fucking hero!

~BB~

You know I thought the cops were going to try and get him.

[OmarZ]

I reposted this on my Facebook wall earlier. This guy is my fucking hero!

~BB~

:Bowdown:

I love those two bit city copy looking all sissy...

Half of those guys would wet their pants in a real life combat situation

[BellaBellucci]

You know I thought the cops were going to try and get him.

Yeah, I was worried for his safety at least a few times there. I have mad respect for that guy. You have no idea.

On the other hand, I've personally done the exact same thing to former White House Chief of Staff Andy Card back when I lived in New Hampshire. In fact a whole group of us trolled him good.

Of course, the difference is that Card couldn't get violent, but these cops could have. That's why this guy is the king! :lol:


:Bowdown:

I love those two bit city copy looking all sissy...

Half of those guys would wet their pants in a real life combat situation

Pfft! For realz! Boston PD has the same mentality. I know all about that shit. :lol:

~BB~

[Bobby Domino]

Hmmmm
"http://www.worldstarhiphop.com/videos/video.php?v=wshh7475FAFF0g9E91d2"

5 star post

[loren]

Hmmmm
Video: 1 Marine vs. 30 Cops: Marine Punks NYPD Cops! (http://www.worldstarhiphop.com/videos/video.php?v=wshh7475FAFF0g9E91d2)
cool vid

Half of those guys would wet their pants in a real life combat situation
:iagree:

Pfft! For realz! Boston PD has the same mentality. I know all about that shit. :lol:

~BB~
Don't get me started on police brutality. Persoanlly (in my experience), I think that about 90% of the cops are croocked and corrupt. In, my town, the cops shoot handcuffed people for "trying to escape", and if you have a disagreement with what they do, they'll readjust your face.

[russtafa]

Chinese cops are the toughest in the world

[MdR Dave]

Chinese cops are the toughest in the world
I thought it might be this guy.

[OmarZ]

Pfft! For realz! Boston PD has the same mentality. I know all about that shit. :lol:

~BB~

lemme guess, they love tranny cock up their ass

[BellaBellucci]

lemme guess, they love tranny cock up their ass

It wouldn't surprise me. The same goes for the fucking State Troopers. I hate those guys. :geek:

These guys are waaaaay cooler:

Super troopers meow - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yXZRdeGHEo)

Don&#39;t spit In that cops burger! - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwJe1tHnsHo&feature=related)

~BB~

[russtafa]

i reckon the cops in China would take these protesters back for experiments and spare parts

[BigDF]

i reckon the cops in China would take these protesters back for experiments and spare partsApparently not the Chinese Army.

1989 Tiananmen Square Protests - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-nXT8lSnPQ)

[russtafa]

yeah how cool is that beep,beep

[Dino Velvet]

China can't stop Riki-Oh!

Scenes from the ridiculous Riki-Oh - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lbzbyg3olQI)

[russtafa]

bloody hell dino

[Dino Velvet]

bloody hell dino

Ya' like that one? Ever see that crazy movie?