A Country Fit For...

[Jericho]

There was a time i was proud to be British but, this current government makes me want to hang my head in shame.


The government has clashed with disability (http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/disability) campaigners and health charities after warning seriously ill patients that their benefits (http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/benefits) may be cut from next April if its welfare reform bill (http://services.parliament.uk/bills/2010-11/welfarereform.html), which has not yet passed all its parliamentary stages, is enacted later this year.
The Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) is sending letters to claimants saying the contributory employment support allowance (ESA) will be time-limited to one year for people deemed capable of returning to employment, meaning those already receiving the benefit could lose their financial help in six months' time.
The provision is included in the bill, which has still to go to the House of Lords for scrutiny. Campaigners believe there is a chance that plans to time-limit ESA may still be scrapped, particularly after Liberal Democrat delegates voted against the imposition of time limits at their party conference earlier this week.
The chief executive of Macmillan Cancer Support, Ciarán Devane,accused the government (http://www.macmillan.org.uk/Aboutus/News/Latest_News/Millionsspentinformingsickanddisabledtheirbenefits mightstop-beforeWelfareBillisevenpassed.aspx)of behaving as if the welfare (http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/welfare) reform bill had been already passed.
"[The] Lords will no doubt be angry that claimants are being told they could lose their benefits before they have had the opportunity to debate the proposals in detail.
"The letters will cause a great deal of distress to thousands of cancer patients and their families who will be left wondering whether their vital financial support will be taken away or not. We will continue to urge the government to think again."
Neil Coyle, director of policy for the Disability Alliance (http://www.disabilityalliance.org/) charity, said the impact of cutting support would be particularly devastating for people with a terminal illness who have been told they only have a limited time left to live. "Many will have worked for years and will feel they deserve a little support in return until they pass away."
The alliance claims that 700,000 people will eventually be affected by the change in support, and alleges that 400,000 would have to lose all support if the government were to meet its target of cutting the welfare bill by £2bn. The government's own estimates (http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/esa-time-limit-wr2011-ia.pdf) show that 90% of people claiming ESA spend more than a year out of work. Macmillan says nearly 7,000 cancer patients will lose up to £94 a week.
The DWP insisted terminally ill claimants would not lose the allowance if they were unfit to work, and said the 12-month time limit was intended to act as an incentive for those capable of returning to "work-related activity". Those assessed as in need of support because of illness or family circumstances would continue to receive the allowance, it added.
A spokesman said: "It will depend on the individual's capacity to work. Everyone will be assessed on an individual basis and if the decision is that they are able to start the journey back to work there will be a time limit.
"Speaking of terminal illness is clearly emotive and if they are on their deathbed they will clearly not be going back to work, but if someone is not in that position they may be able to lead a normal life which could involve work. The process of working may even be helpful in giving them a sense of being useful and prolonging their lives.
"There is no benefit or advantage in just cutting the ESA. It is not some arbitrary target."
The spokesman said the letters were being sent out in advance of the legislation being passed in order to give claimants maximum warning of the possible change.
He added that ESA was not designed for people to claim for the long term. "We must ensure that the benefit system has to be fair to taxpayers as well as disabled people."
Those DWP comments sparked further fury, with the Disability Alliance saying it intended to lodge a formal complaint at what it called the "outrageous" suggestion that ESA claimants were not also taxpayers. "DWP suggesting the welfare system needs to be 'fair for the taxpayer' is exactly what we are asking: those who pay in should be entitled to support, especially in difficult circumstances like being told you will be passing away. It is utterly misrepresenting the policy for DWP attempt to skew debate and pretend all benefit recipients have never worked."
Claudia Wood, head of public services and welfare at the thinktank Demos, said the one-year time limit was "arbitrary" and "punitive". Shecalled for the time limit to be flexibly linked (http://opinion.publicfinance.co.uk/2011/09/lib-dems-conference-taking-a-stand-on-welfare/) to the average time it takes for an ESA claimant to get a job. This might currently be up to three years but in a stronger job market it might be as little as 18 months.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2011/sep/21/terminally-ill-told-benefits-cut

[russtafa]

i'm proud to be Australian despite our socialist government.i love Australia

[Prospero]

I agree with you Jericho. It's shameful times we live in.

Noel Coward - There Are Bad Times Just Around The Corner - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCZCv98XKFs)

[russtafa]

Half these traitors would open the gates of rome

[Prospero]

Who are "these traitors" Russtafa.... ?

[russtafa]

:whistle:You know who

[Prospero]

On you mean the vast majority of decent citizens don't you my old Hitler fan? The people who believe that we should live and let live and tolerate people of different cultures, religion and race rather than hate them. Oh those traitors you admirable little racist.
All together now Russtafa, Arnie and your ilk: "Arbeit mach frei"

[russtafa]

on you mean the vast majority of decent citizens don't you my old hitler fan? The people who believe that we should live and let live and tolerate people of different cultures, religion and race rather than hate them. Oh those traitors you admirable little racist.
All together now russtafa, arnie and your ilk: "arbeit mach frei"

im not a racist im a cultralist and i hate traitors wich some people want to be?

[Prospero]

A culturalist eh - well a rose by any other name

[Stavros]

The primary origin of this policy is the government's determination to reduce the financial cost of welfare, but it also wants to eliminate fraudulent claims for disability alowance. As usual with this coalition, they have sat down and looked at the figures and applied a broad brush across the whole of the disability group -I would not be surprised if some bureaucrat in the preparation/analysis stage highlighted which 'sub-groups' within the disabled would be severely disadvantaged without special exemptions - and the terminally ill and people suffering from cancer are examples- and the Minister put it to one side anyway -which is why The Guardian highlighted a quote from a Cancer charity. The Lib-Dems claim they are opposed to it, but it remains to be seen how this pans out -my assumption is that they will insert various clauses into the bill to exempt specific groups of people, so The Guardian's hysteria will have been just that. Luckily, Ron Paul isn't in charge of welfare in this country; if he was, nobody would get it, unless they drag themselves at the point of death to a Roman Catholic funded hospital (see one of his videos Ben posted the other day in the dynamic Ron Paul thread).

In fact there are benefit cheats, because I once lived in a multi-occupied house with a lot of claimants, and this one man was a cheat of the highest order: he had tripped over a cracked paving stone, and genuinely hurt his foot -it wasn't a Class 1 injury that left his life hanging by a thread, it just bled a lot and hurt. He had the foresight to 'hobble' back to the paving stone, dig a bit more out with his fit foot, and sued the Council. He was compensated and I am not sure how much he got, I am sure he exaggerated it, I think he said it was about £3-5,000. In addition, he got himself re-classified as disabled so he could get disability allowance; obviously he did not work -the bottom line is that this man was fit and healthy, he walked with a limp when he could remember to; his entitlement to disability allowance was zero.

But as usual, the frauds make it bad for everyone -there are deserving people, which is why we have this system; I don't see why it is so hard to weed out the cheats.

[russtafa]

On you mean the vast majority of decent citizens don't you my old Hitler fan? The people who believe that we should live and let live and tolerate people of different cultures, religion and race rather than hate them. Oh those traitors you admirable little racist.
All together now Russtafa, Arnie and your ilk: "Arbeit mach frei"
yeah just like Nevil Chamberlain:whistle:

[Faldur]

You can't pay for that which you can't afford. Why is that so hard to understand?

[russtafa]

i always thought Hitler was a complete madman and ruined a great country.i have always thought Franco was a great leader .Mussolini would have done well if he hadn't joined with that madman

[russtafa]

i always thought Hitler was a complete madman and ruined a great country.i have always thought Franco was a great leader .Mussolini would have done well if he hadn't joined with that madman

Do most of you deluded idiots on this forum think I'm that extreme?Give me a fucking break because I can assure you I'm not.I'm just not a socialist moron.

[Stavros]

You can't pay for that which you can't afford. Why is that so hard to understand?

Faldur, we can afford to fund the welfare state in the UK, it is not just an entitlement, it is in Dick Cheney's memorable phrase 'doable'. The issues we are dealing with are about who gets the largest slice of the national pie. Osborne is the key figure in the current government, not Cameron, and Osborne is in no doubt that he and his fiends (woops, that should be friends) have their own entitlements....I think it was Habermas who coined the phrase: the public creation of privately appropriated wealth...

Incidentally, Faldur, have you ever crossed the pond to visit us in our majesty?

[hippifried]

Do most of you deluded idiots on this forum think I'm that extreme?Give me a fucking break because I can assure you I'm not.I'm just not a socialist moron.
Well I do, but I see all forms of bigotry as the same sort of irrational fear.

Cultural puirity is a myth. All cultures are a mutt mix & always in flux. If it's necessary to resort to bigoted hatred, or even violence, to defend a culture, then it probably isn't worth the effort & will lose its grip in short order anyway. Intolerance is for small minded wimps or the generally stupid.

The only real difference between fascism & communism is the memetic propaganda about who should be the dictator & who should be the enemy, under autocratic rule. Both approaches are anathema to free markets, or freedom in general. None of it works. The Soviet Union collapsed under it's own weight, China is running from Mao as fast as they can, & Spain has been a total basket case & the most backward country in Europe since Franco took control. It's all just feudalism redux. In my 60 years, I've never seen a single sensible reason for society to go back to the bad old days.

[Faldur]

Incidentally, Faldur, have you ever crossed the pond to visit us in our majesty?

My daughter attends college there, she loves it there. I hope to visit someday soon.

[russtafa]

what's wrong with one culture .multi culture is a disaster and divides countries not unites if so why is the UK and Europe in so much trouble?if some one settles in America they should live as an American with American customs not want to speak their language ,their schools,their courts

[russtafa]

what's wrong with one culture .multi culture is a disaster and divides countries not unites if so why is the UK and Europe in so much trouble?if some one settles in America they should live as an American with American customs not want to speak their language ,their schools,their courts
my missus does not want to convert to islam and wear a veil and i don't want to kiss the carpet 5 times a day and under your reckoning hippie that's what is going to happen i think a lot of people will want to resist till the very end

[Silcc69]

my missus does not want to convert to islam and wear a veil and i don't want to kiss the carpet 5 times a day and under your reckoning hippie that's what is going to happen i think a lot of people will want to resist till the very end

Why do you keep quoting yourself?

[Stavros]

Spain has been a total basket case & the most backward country in Europe since Franco took control

Hippifried I think you need to re-think this. Franco died in 1975 -yes, at the time Spain had not developed as much as other parts of western Europe, but in the years since then its economy and society has been transformed as democratic Spain has been determined to get as far away as possible from the strangulation of personal freedom and economic liberalism that typified Franco's regime. Spain's economic problems, like those in Greece and Ireland, has been shaped by poor tax collection, financial mismanagement and poor investment decisions, a litany that could apply to the UK as well.

I don't know what the most backward country in Europe is, it would depend on the indicators used to define it. In terms of attitudes to something like sexuality, I would not want to live in the Balkans -or Northern Ireland; in economic terms, I would assume Albania is still one of the poorest countries in Europe. Other BMs will have their own view on this.

[russtafa]

Why do you keep quoting yourself?
why do keep quoting me ? or are you stupid?

[Prospero]

my missus does not want to convert to islam and wear a veil and i don't want to kiss the carpet 5 times a day and under your reckoning hippie that's what is going to happen i think a lot of people will want to resist till the very end


It is astonishing how people believe this twaddle. Who on Earth is going to force your wife into a Burka or niqab? This is the same sort of talk about Muslims that people used to stoke the fire of hate against the jews - the international zionist conspiracy.

Arguing about the complexities of multi-culturalism is one thing. Yes - it is problematic and all sides need to intelligently engage and explore how we can get along together. Not pump out this stuff. Do you want all Muslims to be sent "back" to Muslim majority countries. Then what will you do about your aboriginals. Put them in camps? Perhaps it is the whites who should be 'sent back" to England to give the stolen land back to the original people there. Same for the Americas, New Zealand etc. How about forcing the Han Chinese to get out of Tibet and all the 'stolen" bits of their country. Take a globl perective on this and you see how lunatic your position is. We live in a complex and challenging world. Recourse to hate won't solve anything.

[hippifried]

my missus does not want to convert to islam and wear a veil and i don't want to kiss the carpet 5 times a day and under your reckoning hippie that's what is going to happen i think a lot of people will want to resist till the very end
Wow! I knew you were paranoid, but that's really over the edge. What makes you think that's a viable look at the future & not just crazy talk? They don't even put up with that kind of crap in Iran. I'm no shrink, but I'm going to advise you anyway. Ready? Don't do what you don't want to do. There it is. Just that simple.


what's wrong with one culture .multi culture is a disaster and divides countries not unites if so why is the UK and Europe in so much trouble?if some one settles in America they should live as an American with American customs not want to speak their language ,their schools,their courts
I live in a multicultural country. It's called the United States of America. We're not European. Customs are regional. So are dialects. I'm 23 miles from Mexicali, & this town is right around 70% hispanic. I'm the only one on the block who doesn't speak Spanish. The percentage gets higher as you go south. It's not a problem any more than it's a problem wandering around Little Italy, Harlem, Spanish Harlem, or Chinatown in New York. The idea that people have ever moved to a foreign country & immediately worked to assimilate into the culture is a myth. It takes another generation or 2, & by then the culture's changed anyway. Despite all the whining by the eurocentric, the truth is that immigration & the mixing of various cultures has never been anything but a boon to this country. They aren't colonists or conquistadors. From what I can tell, the biggest xenophobic fear of immigrants is that they'll behave like Europeans or eurocentrics. To be more precise: I believe your biggest fear of them is that they're just like you.

[russtafa]

It is astonishing how people believe this twaddle. Who on Earth is going to force your wife into a Burka or niqab? This is the same sort of talk about Muslims that people used to stoke the fire of hate against the jews - the international zionist conspiracy.

Arguing about the complexities of multi-culturalism is one thing. Yes - it is problematic and all sides need to intelligently engage and explore how we can get along together. Not pump out this stuff. Do you want all Muslims to be sent "back" to Muslim majority countries. Then what will you do about your aboriginals. Put them in camps? Perhaps it is the whites who should be 'sent back" to England to give the stolen land back to the original people there. Same for the Americas, New Zealand etc. How about forcing the Han Chinese to get out of Tibet and all the 'stolen" bits of their country. Take a globl perective on this and you see how lunatic your position is. We live in a complex and challenging world. Recourse to hate won't solve anything.do you believe your twaddle?

[Nicole Dupre]

why do keep quoting me ? or are you stupid?
You're lucky we think kangaroos are cute, or we'd just bomb you and steal your real estate. But give us a few years because you're really starting to get on our fucking nerves. Mel Gibson was smart to learn to drop that gay accent you all have. Maybe you'd better get with the program, or we might just send in surgical drones to harvest your organs. You're all on thin ice down there, pal.

[russtafa]

you are on thin ice up their pal

[russtafa]

You're lucky we think kangaroos are cute, or we'd just bomb you and steal your real estate. But give us a few years because you're really starting to get on our fucking nerves. Mel Gibson was smart to learn to drop that gay accent you all have. Maybe you'd better get with the program, or we might just send in surgical drones to harvest your organs. You're all on thin ice down there, pal.You've obviously just injected and on an absolute high,how the fuck did Mel Gibson come into this?You have no idea about the Australian accent do you and when you say we are getting on "our fucking nerves" are you now speaking on behalf of everyone on this forum are you?You're a joke lol :Bowdown:

[Prospero]

Since you are clearly ignorant of history or geo-politics Russtafa and your only response is name calling i consider talking to you to be a flagrant waste of time. Get some education and whatever our political differences It'll be worth bothering to talk to you. As it is everything you post is simply the fruit of ignorance and blind prejudice.

In person you might well be a nice guy, but your unthinking posts reveal you to be the sort of fodder that of the left and the right demagogues have always depended upon. I'm sorry for you.

[russtafa]

i'm sorry for you.you are very misguided

[Stavros]

I think this thread is now exhausted. It began with a plea from Jericho on government policy, which hasn't generated much discussion; the rest is probably best left for posterity.

[russtafa]

yes i agree

[Prospero]

Gets my vote too Stavros