My point of view on prostitution

[dbev]

Some of you may not like what I'm writing, but this is my point of view and, fortunately, I'm not the only one thinking so.

In prostitution, people are always exploited and enslaved.

First of all, there are perverts (the clients), married or not, who like to use mainly women for their shameful pleasures; because what they do with the prostitute is not sex - in sex there are two equals who are both having fun - but use of the other's body for their pleasure, therefore very similar to rape.

Secondly, there are the exploiters of those poor lonely souls, who earn on the bodies of these humans.

Thirdly, there are too many people who turn away and stigmatizes girls, rather than seeking to help.

We need to:


change the mode of relationship between men and women,

treat this mass of perverted psychopaths who like to use the other's body

and copy Sweden, Norway and Iceland that punish customers with at least 6 months of imprisonment.

Nowadays, with websites and bars / pubs, if a person wants to meet another person to practice some healthy sex with shared pleasure, that person could easily do so.
To do this, however, one must strive to please other people. But sex and shared pleasure are not something sought after by clients, that's just ugly, filthy, disgusting exploitation of the bodies of others and these perverts do not see women as people but as things.

The clients (who are also other people's partners, fathers, grandparents) of the - mostly women and 20% minors for around USD 60 billion estimated income mostly controlled by organized crime - are perverts with big mental problems - it is clear from the studies that you can also find on the net - and are the reason for the existence of this vile trade.

I also read that all prostitutes have symptoms of post-traumatic stress syndrome; all of them, even people who say they do it voluntarily, by choice, because they like it.

Imagine how much damage these perverts of clients, how many scars they leave on these poor souls.

Let's try to apply humanism and as (also) Mahatma Gandhi said: "Be the change you want to see in the world".

In Sweden, Norway and Iceland, States where the presence of women in public office is very high, it's working...

Finally, on a more general level, the issues that overlap, in my opinion, are:


the relationship between humans and the environment in which they live, which is set to exploitation;
the relationship between human beings and human beings, which is set to exploitation;
the relationship between human men and women, which is set to exploitation.

To change society, even though I think the species Homo sapiens sapiens is doomed to extinction because of our inability to conceive relationships not based on exploitation, we must change our way of being.

[loveboof]

Interesting opinions.

Personally I have never visited a prostitute, but I can't count out the possibility in the future. I am not some perverted psychopath, and I think it's safe to assume that most customers of escorts (etc) are the same.

'The oldest profession in the world'... this is not a new problem lol. Humanity is not doomed simply because of exploitative relationships!

Sex with prostitutes is obviously not the same as sex in a long term healthy relationship, but I don't think that makes it shame worthy. And your solutions are based on some unrealistic and possibly unattainable premises - which in turn makes them unviable as an answer.

If you want to apply a humanist solution to the issue of prostitution, I think you first need to better understand human needs. Your critique of the 'customer' is heavily biased and emotionally involved - as opposed to accurate (which is what you need)..

[dbev]

My critique comes from "clinical studies" that I've read conducted by psychologist and sociologist.

Prostitution is not the oldest profession in the world, it's the oldest form of exploitation of human beings on human beings.

And, Loveboof, I know from experience that we cannot judge or evaluate objectively ourselves and our problems... we need an external eye in order to do so... that's why we have doctors...

[loveboof]

Please show me the 'clinical studies' which concluded that all men who seek out prostitutes are perverted psychopaths...

And 'the oldest profession' joke simply proves this is not a new problem.

[needsum]

DBEV, I'm curious--have you ever visited a prostitute? How about an escort? Have you ever had a one night stand? HAve you ever NOT called a woman ever again after having sex with her? I respect the fact that you had the guts to post here of all places, but I respectfully disagree with many of the things you said. I fit your main demographic--I'm married, late 30's, and I do indeed see an escort on occasion. However thats where my link to your theories ends. When I am looking to find a woman to spend some time with, I am not searching for some dumb, empty hole to fill. What I look for is a woman who is eager and interested to interact with me and all of her customers. And, while you may not believe this, many women enjoy what they do. I have had more that a few encounters over the years where I have felt both an intense physical AND emotional connection to the woman I was with at the time. Women can fake an orgasm, and some may even fake a smile, but I believe that it is very difficult to fake the enjoyment that a lot of us are seeing with the girls that are out there. How do I know this, because there is a forum that offers the opportunity for guys to share experiences, and for the girls to join in and talk about it as well. (HA's format is based directly from this other sites format and they both work exactly the same).

Yes, women are exploited sexually in this business. Yes, there is sex trafficing. And yes, men do get exploited, ripped off, scammed, etc as well. So when you offer your opinions, just don't forget to include both sides of the coin. Many women get into this business because they are looking for ways to get away with whatever they can. many need to pay their bills and working a regular job is difficult for a host of reasons. Many do it because they love sex, and feel getting paid for it is just a bonus. Our moralistic society has put such a black mark on prostitution that we innately feel like it is something bad. Honestly, while it does have its bad elements, as does every other trade in the world, I don't feel it is something to be ashamed about or to be looked down upon. You seem to be coming from the aspect of "Men selling women as sexual objects" as the basic staple of the industry. probably 99% of any of the experiences I have had have been with independant women, or with agencies that are run by women who employ independent women. While your stats may be true, there seems to be a big hole in your fundamental arguement.

[Jackal]

The Sweden model was designed without the prostitute in mind. They're just pretending to care. Its because of people like you that violence against prostitutes are often unreported or ignored, and generally treated like crap by society.


‪One Form Of OPPRESSION For Another‬‏ - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjvD3M1ASH4)

[scroller]

I know a practicing psychologist who does research in this area, and says pretty much exactly the opposite of everything asserted by the OP. Just to look at analysis of one part, the sex-trafficking numbers are entirely fictitious:


None of the media that published Richardson's astonishing numbers bothered to examine the study at the heart of her claim. If they had, they would have found what we did after asking independent experts to examine the research: It's junk science.

http://www.villagevoice.com/2011-03-23/news/women-s-funding-network-sex-trafficking-study-is-junk-science/

[Jericho]

First of all, there are perverts (the clients), married or not, who like to use mainly women for their shameful pleasures; because what they do with the prostitute is not sex - in sex there are two equals who are both having fun - but use of the other's body for their pleasure, therefore very similar to rape.



Absolute twaddle! :rolleyes:

[Prospero]

I think you are msitaken in your opening premise. In the transaction that occurs between a hooker and her client, an agreement has been reached. Sexual intercourse or some other form of sex occurs. it is technically sex. It could be rape if the prostitute (male, female or transgendered) was forced by some method (and yes it could be rape if the hooker in question was perhaps forced by her pimp) But in general its a consensual business exchange - an offer of sexual gratification offered in exchange for money. This is not perversion in the generally accepted sense.

[Edwoodwoodwood]

I believe Needsum pretty much summed it up for me and I suspect many of the guys on this forum.

I too fit the demographic profile outlined and have crossed over the fence and dabbled with many escorts over the years be they GG or TS. Its not something I'm proud of and I'm sure my wife & family would be none too chuffed if they found out either.

As Prospero says it always has been (in my experience) a consensual financial arrangement. It seems that the going rate is circa £150/hr in the UK but can be a hell of a lot higher. You tell me where you can earn £150/hr. Other than a barister you've gotta be looking at a drug dealer.

I believe that I have been mugged many more times than the escort because I'm the one stupid to part with the cash. Better spent on sex than drugs in my opinion.

I'm sure there are horror stories of people smuggleing and child prostitution out there as there are with peodophiles but the activities of the people on this forum athough maybe a little wierd I don't believe fit the average criteria you preach to us about.

We all know the dangers out there but I don't believe you will get too many supporters on HA.

[hippifried]

My point of view on prostitution is, preferably, up close.

That said, I can't buy this "everybody's a victim" routine. Prostitution serves a social need. I'm sure there's loads of problems within the industry, & organized crime is probably the biggest one. If people insist on keeping prostitution criminalized, & therefore a black market enterprize, criminals will continue to control the industry. Reap what you sow.

This isn't an enforcement issue. It's just the natural consequence of arbitrary rules that that have no basis in the moral code, so that they get ignored. The more you try to ehforce the ban, the deeper it gets pushed underground, where there's no control at all. The problem isn't the prostitutes. The problem isn't the clientelle. The problem isn't even the criminals who control so much of the industry, do all these heinous things that the new book claims. The problem is the arbitrary ban that begs the criminal element to take control of the industry.

Sex providers aren't going away & neither are their clients. It's a primal urge.

[Prospero]

I hadn't read Needsum's posting when I responded but agree with Ed that he summed it up in a better and more expansive way than i did. I spoke of the economic aspect of it. But Needsum touched on the distinct sets of needs that are being met on both sides. This really should be considered. Yes, selling your body for sex can be seen to be degrading. It can also be argued that paying for sex is also degraded. There are plenty here who boast that they've never paid and never will etc. But others who maybe can't get that sexual desire satisfied in other ways. And others who perhaps have had an awareness of distinct sexual needs and desires within themselves awaken after they've committed themselves to a life and relationship that no longer fully satisifies what they now know to be their own sexual needs.

Ask many of the transgendered ladies here about it and they might respond with an argument that is somewhat different. They may talk about empowerment. They might tell you that being paid for sex makes them feel strong and in control and, in this corner of the gender spectrum, respected and even admired in a way that society in its wider sense does not offer.

Yes it is true some might meet clients whose seuxality and/or physicality and attitudes disgust them - men who'd they'd not look at twice in a bar or a social context. Plenty of girls here will talk about the cockhounds who they despise and who they'd never date in the wider outside world.

But I can genuinely say that many I've met and many that others here talk about are either brilliant actresses or do seem to genuinely enjoy both the sex and the wider aspect of the encounter. It's fun for them AND it makes them good money which, for many, may well be stored for a future career and also for the cost of the surgery and other elements of an eventual transition.

I think your puritanical take is based upon a myth of the escort as pure victim and nothing else. There are plenty of victims to be sure. We hear about them in the press.

But the truth and the full picture is far more complex.

[JamieCoxx]

I'm a prostitute. This guy has his head up his ass. I felt like a victim working at Pizza Hut. 5 years on as a hooker I'm the most empowered, happy and healthy I've been in my life! Guy is a troll.

If you really care about anyone's opinion about prostitution, don't listen to some schmuck with a white knight complex, go straight to the source. ASK A PROSTITUTE. You'll hear good stories, you'll here bad stories just like you would in any other profession. But at least you'd get TRUE stories.

[Silcc69]

Troll or not these numbers are simply off the charts. 200 million dollars in tax payers money wasted then 58 billion dollar industry!? No wonder this country tanking economically.

[Nicole Dupre]

‪Lykke Li - Get Some‬‏ - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TTPGAy5H_E)

[Nicole Dupre]

I, like, blame society for hookers. Women should just control everything in the world, and sooner or later all of you guys would get some. But you 'alpha males' are basically bullies. It'll never work. It's 'hookers or nothing'.

And what's your rush to get laid anyway? Just because you could get hit by lightning tomorrow, and never have had the sexual experiences you crave the most, why actually do anything about it? Just jerk off. Like, why start living now?

[jamiecoxxdotcom]

I wonder if this guy owns name brand clothing, or really name brand anything made over seas... I want to hear about his concern with human suffering on that point.

Funny how his care for human suffering is focused on prostitution/sex when suffering is such a universal condition.

It's real simple... I see this kind of thing from time to time. The guy has a strange complex - you know that normal sense of "my territory" you get when you're in a relationship? This guy's sense of that is all out of whack and applies to everyone he'd ever be interested in putting his penis in. It's a really weird form of misplaced jealousy. Way easy to see through. No sense of proportion, shows signs of possible arrested development.

[Devilboy]

Charlie Sheen's thoughts with regards to prostitution, "I'm not paying them for sex....I am paying them to leave..."

[tsparisangelline]

Your paying to watch porn not much of a difference.

Plus we don't get used for hours at a time either lmfao.

[dbev]

I wonder if this guy owns name brand clothing, or really name brand anything made over seas... I want to hear about his concern with human suffering on that point.

Funny how his care for human suffering is focused on prostitution/sex when suffering is such a universal condition.

It's real simple... I see this kind of thing from time to time. The guy has a strange complex - you know that normal sense of "my territory" you get when you're in a relationship? This guy's sense of that is all out of whack and applies to everyone he'd ever be interested in putting his penis in. It's a really weird form of misplaced jealousy. Way easy to see through. No sense of proportion, shows signs of possible arrested development.

Nice question thanks!

No, I don't have anything produced by MNCs exploiting labour. I'm trying to be coherent.

I've done some research on my own, including "hidden camera" videos of clients and prostitutes and other videos available on the net (see Big Sister videos).

I've read books written by prostitutes, former prostitutes and social workers.

And my concern on prostitution is because it's the best example of why our civilization is doomed.

Evertyhing else is self-denial.

Last comment, well... please...

[dbev]

Your paying to watch porn not much of a difference.

Plus we don't get used for hours at a time either lmfao.

I'm not paying, I'm reducing my dose of porn, overall, but especially of professional porn.

[dbev]

Just to put things clear.

I'm not a troll, nor a dumbass, nor a white night... I'm striving to be a better human being and to respect who and what is around me.

Suffering is what we built in our doomed civilization.

And, yes, $5 per hour in Pizza Hut is suffering, is exploitation and it's another form of the reason why we're doomed.

[nycguy69]

When 2 adults voluntarily exchange sex for money don't they each end up having gained something? The client receives the satisfaction he was seeking and the service provider gets cash. Who is exploiting whom exactly?

And more fundamentally, doesn't the service provider own her or his body? Isn't the client's cash his property to do with as he sees fit?

[MrF]

And my concern on prostitution is because it's the best example of why our civilization is doomed.


So, if we're really doomed, why bother ? Being doomed means you can't do anything about it.

Besides, if you accept that prostitution is the "world's oldest profession", then we've been doomed since the start of civilization, which is a bit contradictory. Then is it maybe like war ? A constant scourge of mankind ? I don't get your reasoning.

I would agree that there are serious moral problems around prostitution, but I think prostitution is inevitable, the only question is how to mitigate the problems. I think the Germans have it right: make it legal, control it, keep it in certain zones, and protect the rights of those involved. Those who don't want to be involved don't need to concern themselves. I mean, we are talking about adults exercising their free will.

[Nicole Dupre]

If you want a 'trophy' GG, you get one. If you want a 'trophy' TS, you get one. How you do it is entirely on YOU. Anything else you might complain about is just sour grapes, I would think.

It's such an old arrangement, and it's definitely not going away. And, if it's not you, it will be someone else. Women have plenty of options when they're sexually desirable.

So I guess you either 'get some' as NSA/FWB, or as a BF, or as a husband. If you couldn't pull off one of three, there's probably something lacking about you. Desirability is nothing you can force on women. You can't expect people to date as a form of charity. lol You're either desired or you're not. lol Why get defensive, or tell people what you will or won't do? That's like bragging that you don't buy women flowers or drinks in a bar. lol It seems like a slightly petty stance to take. lol

[dbev]

So, if we're really doomed, why bother ? Being doomed means you can't do anything about it.

Besides, if you accept that prostitution is the "world's oldest profession", then we've been doomed since the start of civilization, which is a bit contradictory. Then is it maybe like war ? A constant scourge of mankind ? I don't get your reasoning.

I would agree that there are serious moral problems around prostitution, but I think prostitution is inevitable, the only question is how to mitigate the problems. I think the Germans have it right: make it legal, control it, keep it in certain zones, and protect the rights of those involved. Those who don't want to be involved don't need to concern themselves. I mean, we are talking about adults exercising their free will.

First, we are doomed because our civilization is based on exploitation. But I cannot accept exploitation. Let's all disappear tomorrow, but without this mess before it...

Second, that is exactly what I think: we have been doomed since the beginning of our civilization with the Sumer (4,000 BC), and surely since Babylonia. It's not contradictory.
Either we are altogether an evolutionary error like many others in the history of this planet or something, when humans became farmers went wrong.
You may know that when we were hunters/gatherers the position of women in the society was equal and very respected, because they were running the business and men were always away.
Then, we settled down as farmers (8,000 BC), men started to realize that 1 man and 5 women meant 5 children, while 5 men and 1 woman meant 1 child, and began to lock away women who, ever since, became objects and cows.
You may also know that war began at around the same time, as a form of ritualized hunting, in order to have young males "express themselves".
So, whatever the origin, we have a civilization with a history of exploitation on everything and everyone surrounding us.

Even if we do as in Germany, there are always the aspects of the human - human relations that are wrong... this is the point...

If I understood everything correctly, I like Nicole Dupre's point of view, because she understood the issues at stake and she put them in a really effective way. It's not a case that buying other people's bodies for sexual pleasure is not allowed in Sweden, Norway and Iceland where women hold the majority or almost the majority of parliamentary seats and public offices.

[onmyknees]

Another do-gooder trying to save the world from itself. Save yourself first !
You should have begun your post by saying..."In a perfect world.........."
While I don't make light that there is a some serious negative aspects if a girl gets in with the wrong people, I'm a free market capitalist, and that transaction between lady and client is the purest form capitolism I know of. A desire.... a need if you will, and someone willing to pay for that service , and a person willing to provide that service.
I wish it were so that only emotionally stable, well adjusted ladies enter the profession well past their 21st birthday, there's simply no way to accomplish that.

[jamiecoxxdotcom]

The OP obviously isn't 'all there'. It won't do any good responding to this guy in a serious fasion. The weird little world in his head has been carefully built brick by brick over the years and you just can't engage in any meaningful way with these kind of human caricatures. Lost cause, too far gone. Added to my ignore list. Ya'll might want to do the same.

[MrF]

^ Yeah, he might be a hopeless cause. But there is a majority in the USA who dislike prostitution, enough to make it illegal, so it's interesting to argue about it.

I still don't get how we're doomed for thousands of years and especially the new info he provided that women were more "equal and very respected" when we were hunter/gatherers, so we've degenerated since then, presumably. But how do you know ? From stone artefacts ? Or extrapolating from the few hunter/gatherer societies that exist now (from which I see no evidence that women are better off). Not a very well supported thesis, in my opinion.

[hippifried]

There are no hunter/gatherer societies. Every one of them plants & tends crops. That makes them farmers.

[Felicia Katt]

All forms of employment involve selling your body, its just that in some cases its your muscles and in others its your brains. That prostitution is a little of both but may be a different area of the brain than an accountant might use or a different set of muscles than a bricklayer relies on doesn't change its essentially trading effort or energy for currency.

All forms of employment involve exploitation, its just that in some, its lawful and in others its not. Unless all of a sudden, everyone is equal, anyone who employs anyone else is exploiting them, in one way or another. That is might seem more above board when its by a CEO and not a john doesn't alter there is an inherent inequity in every employment relationship

Prostitution is at least a benign profession compared to others. It doesn''t hurt the environment, it doesn't result in damage to the economy. I'd even argue its a benevolent profession compared to others. The job of a prostitute is to provide a little pleasure for a little money, and that's extent of it. Its win win Other jobs typically involve win lose situations. A broker may get pleasure from selling some derivative, but the people buying them ultimately may not, when the books are later balanced. I'd even advance that prostitution is a more honorable job than most because it hurts no one else and most people do their jobs knowing and not caring about what damage it may cause. A salesman's job is to sell his goods at the highest price. A lawyer's job is to win the case for his client. That it may cause real pain to the other side isn't really factored into it.

The only argument against prostitution is a moral one. And its a bullshit one. No one is stopping cage fighters from beating each other bloody for sport. No one is stopping Marcus Bachman from praying the gay away and each of these examples is more clearly immoral than someone giving someone a little temporary human comfort and companionship for a little cash.

FK

[Martin C.]

dbev

I definitelly agree with you. Actually I'm studying for a master degree and one of the topics it's about your position. I hope I could count on you . When I got some time I'm gonna write about my position.

[BellaBellucci]

Power to the prostitutes!

~BB~

[LittleGuy]

Stop paying these whores.

[Prospero]

Little Guy - everything you post is so offensive or dumb.

[Dino Velvet]

Pay them but pay them as little as you have to.

[robertlouis]

Stop paying these whores.


Either you've had a really bad dose of the clap or you're just an unpleasant person.

[loveboof]

Either you've had a really bad dose of the clap or you're just an unpleasant person.
Couldn't it be both?

[LittleGuy]

Little Guy - everything you post is the truth.

I tell it like it is no bullshit

[LittleGuy]

Couldn't it be both?

Damn dude how many gimmicks do you have?

[theone1982]

I'd say prostitution is pretty benign. At least they are not forcing women to participate in orgies with Babylonian priests of the god Marduk in ancient ziggurats so that the crops won't fail.

[Nicole Dupre]

One thing I've picked up on; LittleGuy hates white trannys more than some others. I guess he just hates white people, period. Maybe Latins too. Who knows.

But he's not too open about his own life. His hands are pretty rough, like a ditch digger's. Maybe he went to school for something, but never found work. Or who knows. Maybe he's under 18, and found that certificate thing in the trash at the playground. He's pretty immature.

LittleGuy, what do you do for a living again? You're a security guard or something?

[Prospero]

Re: My point of view on prostitution
Originally Posted by Prospero
Little Guy - everything you post is the truth.
I tell it like it is no bullshit

Look back people - that is NOT what I posted to this fucking creep. Little Guy you are a fucking asshole.

[Nicole Dupre]

Re: My point of view on prostitution
Originally Posted by Prospero
Little Guy - everything you post is the truth.
I tell it like it is no bullshit

Look back people - that is NOT what I posted to this fucking creep. Little Guy you are a fucking asshole.
He lives in his imagination. lol

[Anubis1779]

Since you like Sweden, Norway, and Iceland so much why don't you move there and freeze your nuts off!!

[dbev]

All forms of employment involve selling your body, its just that in some cases its your muscles and in others its your brains. That prostitution is a little of both but may be a different area of the brain than an accountant might use or a different set of muscles than a bricklayer relies on doesn't change its essentially trading effort or energy for currency.

All forms of employment involve exploitation, its just that in some, its lawful and in others its not. Unless all of a sudden, everyone is equal, anyone who employs anyone else is exploiting them, in one way or another. That is might seem more above board when its by a CEO and not a john doesn't alter there is an inherent inequity in every employment relationship

Prostitution is at least a benign profession compared to others. It doesn''t hurt the environment, it doesn't result in damage to the economy. I'd even argue its a benevolent profession compared to others. The job of a prostitute is to provide a little pleasure for a little money, and that's extent of it. Its win win Other jobs typically involve win lose situations. A broker may get pleasure from selling some derivative, but the people buying them ultimately may not, when the books are later balanced. I'd even advance that prostitution is a more honorable job than most because it hurts no one else and most people do their jobs knowing and not caring about what damage it may cause. A salesman's job is to sell his goods at the highest price. A lawyer's job is to win the case for his client. That it may cause real pain to the other side isn't really factored into it.

The only argument against prostitution is a moral one. And its a bullshit one. No one is stopping cage fighters from beating each other bloody for sport. No one is stopping Marcus Bachman from praying the gay away and each of these examples is more clearly immoral than someone giving someone a little temporary human comfort and companionship for a little cash.

FK

Thanks Felicia for replying.

I agree with you at 95%.

As I try to say, it is what was built by us on this planet that is flawed and maybe it's our species that it's flawed.

I picked prostitution (and not all the other examples that you wrote) because, in my opinion, it represents the first, paramount and quintessential form of exploitation then expressed also by all the other examples you gave.

Prostitution is adamantine in showing the very basis of the relations in our society, also including how many men consider women.

When you consider exploitation as the basis of our society, everything else is just an implementation of it:


destruction of the environment
(forced) prostitution
war
rape
labour slavery
labour degradation.

Having said that, I would like to point out that I'm not a bigot!

I strongly encourage and support the idea that human beings should have more sex (and hopefully even some sex with love involved).

And, other side, I strongly contest, question and challenged what our civilization has been since the Sumers, because it's quite clear to me that it's flawed.

[Miss Aeryn]

Jesus, are all 731* of your posts dbev like this thread?

To your OP: If so, what's the solution if your hypothesis is correct that prostitution is the quintessential form of exploitation and just the tip of society's big fat underbelly of doom?

Answers that can be debated and maybe even implemented, not just acedemic mumbo jumbo fluff-filller on OF ALL THINGS a porn forum ffs!

:deadhorse

[russtafa]

it keeps married men happy and clean

[dbev]

Jesus, are all 731* of your posts dbev like this thread?

To your OP: If so, what's the solution if your hypothesis is correct that prostitution is the quintessential form of exploitation and just the tip of society's big fat underbelly of doom?

Answers that can be debated and maybe even implemented, not just acedemic mumbo jumbo fluff-filller on OF ALL THINGS a porn forum ffs!

:deadhorse

My solution is very simple: respect, empathy, help.

[scroller]

My solution is very simple: respect, empathy, help.

I have a friend, research psychologist, former sex worker, whose thesis is that all of those things are exactly what prostitution provides.

[needsum]

My solution is very simple: respect, empathy, help.


it would seem to me, by this very statement, that your issue with prostitution is, at its very core, that it excludes the notion that sex and love are un-seperable. By women selling themselves, they are abandoning their power of equality in a love/sex relationship and reducing themselves to fodder for cumshots.

I respect the fact that you have kept your cool under fire here, as most people here do not. however I still disagree with the bulk of your argument. if society is flawed from the start, and there is very little we can do about it, hy even bother questioning the little bits? be happy. respect other people. live the way you believe you should live. nothing else should matter then.

[dbev]

it would seem to me, by this very statement, that your issue with prostitution is, at its very core, that it excludes the notion that sex and love are un-seperable. By women selling themselves, they are abandoning their power of equality in a love/sex relationship and reducing themselves to fodder for cumshots.

Prostitution, as a form of exploitation, is not sex... right...

Sex and love can be and are separated (there's sex without love, love without sex, and ses with love), and I have nothing to say against people having sex (with consenting adults). Full stop.



I respect the fact that you have kept your cool under fire here, as most people here do not. however I still disagree with the bulk of your argument. if society is flawed from the start, and there is very little we can do about it, hy even bother questioning the little bits? be happy. respect other people. live the way you believe you should live. nothing else should matter then.

I have no problems in keeping my cool, my diet helps me.

I can't be happy when we're doing what we're doing on this planet.

It's hypocritical.

We should try to investigate if we are helplessly flawed as a species - and, in this case, there very little we can do except, maybe, reverting to hunters-gatherers.

But if it all depends on "things" that we built, then if everyone starts to understand how we live and that things can be different - based on respect, empathy, help - we can change.

I don't know the answer.

Another good example of exploitation:
http://thecitizen.co.tz/editorial-analysis/47-columnists/13361-story-you-arent-likely-to-hear-any-time-soon.html

[LittleGuy]

One thing I've picked up on; LittleGuy hates white trannys more than some others. I guess he just hates white people, period. Maybe Latins too. Who knows.

But he's not too open about his own life. His hands are pretty rough, like a ditch digger's. Maybe he went to school for something, but never found work. Or who knows. Maybe he's under 18, and found that certificate thing in the trash at the playground. He's pretty immature.

LittleGuy, what do you do for a living again? You're a security guard or something?

It doesn't matter what I say you're not going to believe me. You said I didn't receive a degree but I posted "Pictures" to back it up. You said I won't post a pic but I sent my pics to just about every woman on here. Nicole can you tell me what you do for a living? I don't hate anybody on here but I can't stand racism like you and your buddy Paris throw around on here.

[LittleGuy]

Re: My point of view on prostitution
Originally Posted by Prospero
Little Guy - everything you post is the truth.
I tell it like it is no bullshit

Look back people - that is NOT what I posted to this fucking creep. Little Guy you are a fucking asshole.

Damn you're fucking stupid. Your parents must be proud.

[needsum]

so you're saying that porstitution is exploitation, period? so if a woman is going about it of her own free will and volition, and desires to do so, she is still exploiting herself? so she's mistreating herself? or is it the guy who is still exploiting her? how does "exploitation" trump a consentual agreement between two choerent, cosenting adults? I just don't see it that way.

Pay a dude at the door to go into a room where a girl who looks young and frightened is there and is under ordersto have sex with you--yesm THAT is exploitation and is 1000% wrong. But a woman advertising her desire to tradse sex for cash is just good business if you ask me.... lol

[Prospero]

Little Guy --- I considered a witty response, but it would be wasted on a guy so clearly devoid of intelligence or courtesy or any other qualities that raise you to the level of a human. Sir... you're the fool.

This song is intended to be ironic. But for you it fits.

‪Randy Newman - Short People‬‏ - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NvgLkuEtkA)

On and you're now on my ignore list so don't bother posting more insults.

[Nikka]

interesting stats

[Erika1487]

Escorting is ok, but "street hooking" is sooo wrong:(

[Birgitta]

Prostitution, as a form of exploitation, is not sex... right...

Sex and love can be and are separated (there's sex without love, love without sex, and ses with love), and I have nothing to say against people having sex (with consenting adults). Full stop.


We
I have no problems in keeping my cool, my diet helps me.

I can't be happy when we're doing what we're doing on this planet.

It's hypocritical.

We should try to investigate if we are helplessly flawed as a species - and, in this case, there very little we can do except, maybe, reverting to hunters-gatherers.

But if it all depends on "things" that we built, then if everyone starts to understand how we live and that things can be different - based on respect, empathy, help - we can change.

I don't know the answer.

Another good example of exploitation:
http://thecitizen.co.tz/editorial-analysis/47-columnists/13361-story-you-arent-likely-to-hear-any-time-soon.html

Human trafficing AND slavery is a huge issue in the world today and we should fight it, but it has NOTHING to do with prostitution (legalized or not)....
Exploitation is everywhere, we should not return to being hunters/gatherers but we should transcent transform our animal nature (greed, lust, power, etc)...into a higher lifeform...the numbers of our species are bigger then our mental/spiritual development, thats why the human world has become self
destructive, not coz people buy love from prostitutes

[Nicole Dupre]

Human trafficing AND slavery is a huge issue in the world today and we should fight it, but it has NOTHING to do with prostitution (legalized or not)....
Exploitation is everywhere, we should not return to being hunters/gatherers but we should transcent transform our animal nature (greed, lust, power, etc)...into a higher lifeform...the numbers of our species are bigger then our mental/spiritual development, thats why the human world has become self
destructive, not coz people buy love from prostitutes
No one thinks they're buying "love" from prostitutes unless they're a sentimental chump or a stalker.

[Birgitta]

No one thinks they're buying "love" from prostitutes unless they're a sentimental chump or a stalker.

I am a feminism fetishist and thought it was more girly to confuse love with sex

[Teydyn]

You have no clue.

People like you HARM prostitutes. Really. You drive prostitution into the dark, where women cant get help, where they will be exploited.

And when you are finished "praying the gay away", start "praying the prostitution away"...

[trish]

My mother grows vegetables in her garden and sells them in the local market. Strangers walk up and down the stalls trying to decide whose tomatoes are the most appealing. Sometimes my mother will invite them to give her tomatoes a squeeze. Sometimes she'll offer them a taste. She enjoys gardening, but [s]he mostly enjoys the encounters with other people at market. And of course at the end of the day she has [a] profit.

The franchise supermarket on the edge of town also sells tomatoes. Tomatoes and apples and cherries etc. The supermarket buys its fruit and veggies from giant farms all over the country and halfway around the world too. They're harvested by traveling pickers who are paid subsistence wages. Some of the workers are children. The fruit is picked well before it's ripe and the franchise treats them with sprays and radiation to make them appear juicy and delicious. But mostly they've got no sweetness, their skins are tough and they're dry as bone.

Think before you generalize. Not every woman engaged in a small business is being exploited. You have to examine the details of her particular business, why she pursues it, what she gets out of it and what others get out of it.

[needsum]

My mother grows vegetables in her garden and sells them in the local market. Strangers walk up and down the stalls trying to decide whose tomatoes are the most appealing. Sometimes my mother will invite them to give her tomatoes a squeeze. Sometimes she'll offer them a taste. She enjoys gardening, but he mostly enjoys the encounters with other people at market. And of course at the end of the day she has profit.

The franchise supermarket on the edge of town also sells tomatoes. Tomatoes and apples and cherries etc. The supermarket buys its fruit and veggies from giant farms all over the country and halfway around the world too. They're harvested by traveling pickers who are paid subsistence wages. Some of the workers are children. The fruit is picked well before it's ripe and the franchise treats them with sprays and radiation to make them appear juicy and delicious. But mostly they've got no sweetness, their skins are tough and they're dry as bone.

Think before you generalize. Not every woman engaged in a small business is being exploited. You have to examine the details of her particular business, why she pursues it, what she gets out of it and what others get out of it.

Damn, you are amazing. GREAT post :)

[Dino Velvet]

Escorting is ok, but "street hooking" is sooo wrong:(

Street hookers are a lot like hitting up a drive-thru. Sometimes I'm really hungry but so filthy and smelly that I don't want to be seen. The drive-thru gets me what I want inside the car and no one forces me to take a shower.

[Nicole Dupre]

I am a feminism fetishist and thought it was more girly to confuse love with sex
You're anything but a woman. You sound like phobun decribing his dream girl.

[BellaBellucci]

I'm just curious if the OP has an equal problem with wage slavery. I know I do. As far as I'm concerned, prostitution is way more empowering than a job at Wal-Mart. I think it's really only illegal because of a) misplaced morality and b) jealousy by the 9-5'er who think we're 'cheating' the system only because they've been brainwashed into believing that getting into the business themselves is immoral. Hey, there's no shame in the game.

Sell widgets, sell pussy, sell dick, sell cars. Who cares? As Felicia said, the environmental impact is nil, the social impact is negligible, and the only negative economic impact is that most of don't pay taxes because we've pretty much been told that we can't.

Of course that changes if you 'legitimize' your business, but then to do that you still have to, at very least, bend the truth about what it is that you're doing. I did that for years when I owned my agency but all it did was put me on their radar. The only reason the government won't step in and do the right thing on this is because they don't want to be seen as complicit, but I wonder how the feds feel about taking tax money from brothels in Nevada, the only businesses in the country that explicitly provide prostitution.


I am a feminism fetishist and thought it was more girly to confuse love with sex

Ahh, yeah. Because most people consider sex in a loving relationship to be a fetish. You can find DVDs of such activity at any porn store right between 'shemale' and 'golden showers.' :rolleyes:

~BB~

[Birgitta]

You're anything but a woman. You sound like phobun decribing his dream girl.

Thats allright, i am under the impression that phobun is one of the cool guys here :) but where is he ?

[Bobby Domino]

Spot on. Well said. if we all could be so eloquent. Cheers!!!


My mother grows vegetables in her garden and sells them in the local market. Strangers walk up and down the stalls trying to decide whose tomatoes are the most appealing. Sometimes my mother will invite them to give her tomatoes a squeeze. Sometimes she'll offer them a taste. She enjoys gardening, but [s]he mostly enjoys the encounters with other people at market. And of course at the end of the day she has [a] profit.

The franchise supermarket on the edge of town also sells tomatoes. Tomatoes and apples and cherries etc. The supermarket buys its fruit and veggies from giant farms all over the country and halfway around the world too. They're harvested by traveling pickers who are paid subsistence wages. Some of the workers are children. The fruit is picked well before it's ripe and the franchise treats them with sprays and radiation to make them appear juicy and delicious. But mostly they've got no sweetness, their skins are tough and they're dry as bone.

Think before you generalize. Not every woman engaged in a small business is being exploited. You have to examine the details of her particular business, why she pursues it, what she gets out of it and what others get out of it.

[dbev]

I'm just curious if the OP has an equal problem with wage slavery. I know I do. As far as I'm concerned, prostitution is way more empowering than a job at Wal-Mart. I think it's really only illegal because of a) misplaced morality and b) jealousy by the 9-5'er who think we're 'cheating' the system only because they've been brainwashed into believing that getting into the business themselves is immoral. Hey, there's no shame in the game.

I already wrote that is, I do have an issue with any forms of exploitation.



Sell widgets, sell pussy, sell dick, sell cars. Who cares? As Felicia said, the environmental impact is nil, the social impact is negligible, and the only negative economic impact is that most of don't pay taxes because we've pretty much been told that we can't.

You know that is not the same.



Of course that changes if you 'legitimize' your business, but then to do that you still have to, at very least, bend the truth about what it is that you're doing. I did that for years when I owned my agency but all it did was put me on their radar. The only reason the government won't step in and do the right thing on this is because they don't want to be seen as complicit, but I wonder how the feds feel about taking tax money from brothels in Nevada, the only businesses in the country that explicitly provide prostitution.

Who knows.

Read about State owned brothels in Italy (they were shut down in 1958), they were prisons with slaves.




Ahh, yeah. Because most people consider sex in a loving relationship to be a fetish. You can find DVDs of such activity at any porn store right between 'shemale' and 'golden showers.' :rolleyes:
~BB~

I didn't get this one

In any case:


I strongly oppose criminalizing prostitutes;
I only think that clients must be firstly imprisoned even is they engage in using the body of a "consenting" adult, and then cured;
I strongly suggest everyone to value themselves and find a legally consenting partner, even for casual sex, there are plenty of occasions;
I think that chastity is not natural.

Some things should not be on the market for sale... because they are sold for money and we all know who is the owner of our money (central banks) and why we fight for survival while some people are extremely rich (the issue the money on behalf of States, they sell it to us, we pay it with our debt).

[Teydyn]

I strongly oppose criminalizing prostitutes
Good, might have misread you there. Only way to go to help them is by legalizing it.


I only think that clients must be firstly imprisoned even is they engage in using the body of a "consenting" adult, and then cured
You seem to think that no woman wants to be a SW, so she is not consenting. Wrong. There are many who do this job because they want to. BIG difference to being forced into prostitution. But then still the prostitution isnt the bad thing, the "being forced into it" is.
Btw, cured of what? A Sex drive?


I strongly suggest everyone to value themselves and find a legally consenting partner, even for casual sex, there are plenty of occasions
Thats so easy, everyone is a supermodel with an outgoing personality, rich, well spoken. No one is shy, fat, poor, socially akward or just plain ugly. And if people like that even existed, too bad for them. They will never ever touch someone beautiful.


I think that chastity is not natural.
For some it would be the only option.

[BellaBellucci]

You know that is not the same.

That's your argument? How is it not the same? Somebody pays for a service and the person being paid provides it. The only reason you feel that it's 'not the same' is because of the ethical implications and your own obtuse view to which you came using disputed facts to support your opinions instead of using your opinions (theories) to motivate you to search for the truth.


In any case:


I strongly oppose criminalizing prostitutes;
I only think that clients must be firstly imprisoned even is they engage in using the body of a "consenting" adult, and then cured;
I strongly suggest everyone to value themselves and find a legally consenting partner, even for casual sex, there are plenty of occasions;
I think that chastity is not natural.

Some things should not be on the market for sale... because they are sold for money and we all know who is the owner of our money (central banks) and why we fight for survival while some people are extremely rich (the issue the money on behalf of States, they sell it to us, we pay it with our debt).

So you want to jail men for having urges for which they pay to experience, which helps keep women out of government programs like welfare and Section 8 because of central banking? If you really want to help women, argue for a closure of the wage gap and encourage business to hire more women. While you're at it, how about arguing for shared ownership of the means of production and collective corporations in lieu of the current haves versus have-nots paradigm?

Look, I have a lot of complaints about the IMF and the Federal Reserve, but I really don't see how you can use debt trading and inflation to devalue sex work, particularly to the point of lopsided enforcement of laws that shouldn't exist at all. If anything, the declining value of the dollar devalues all work.

~BB~

[dbev]

Just for the funny people who edited tags:



2cents -> yes, it's my opinion
christian nutcase -> no, I'm not a christian nutcase
internet info = true -> no, I don't think that internet info is true. Internet is a means to gather information
mahatma gandhi -> a great sould
perverts w mental problem -> full of these people
post-traumatic stress -> lot's of people with that
prostitution = evil -> the primeval form of exploitation

[trish]

Actually THE primeval form of evil is the male dominance hierarchy. The view of this hierarchy is independent whores can't be allowed to do business. Women can't be allowed to own their own bodies, sell their own services, make their own medical decisions etc.

[BellaBellucci]

Actually THE primeval form of evil is the male dominance hierarchy. The view of this hierarchy is independent whores can't be allowed to do business. Women can't be allowed to own their own bodies, sell their own services, make their own medical decisions etc.

:iagree: 1000%. I sometimes ponder what the world would be like if it were a matriarchy. :geek:

~BB~

[dbev]

That's your argument? How is it not the same? Somebody pays for a service and the person being paid provides it. The only reason you feel that it's 'not the same' is because of the ethical implications and your own obtuse view to which you came using disputed facts to support your opinions instead of using your opinions (theories) to motivate you to search for the truth.

I've explained myself multiple times, please read those messages, thanks.




So you want to jail men for having urges for which they pay to experience, which helps keep women out of government programs like welfare and Section 8 because of central banking? Yes, because those are sick urges given by a sick relations of men with their bodies and other people's.



If you really want to help women, argue for a closure of the wage gap and encourage business to hire more women. While you're at it, how about arguing for shared ownership of the means of production and collective corporations in lieu of the current haves versus have-nots paradigm?I do. You're right on every word you wrote. Everyone!



Look, I have a lot of complaints about the IMF and the Federal Reserve, but I really don't see how you can use debt trading and inflation to devalue sex work, particularly to the point of lopsided enforcement of laws that shouldn't exist at all. If anything, the declining value of the dollar devalues all work.

~BB~We, the people, have debts because our money is not ours. And there is a shortage of money for the same reason. The money is issued by bankers, then they sell it to the people, and we the people issue debt certificate to them for the front value of the banknote (ex. a $100 banknote has a production cost of $0.30 more or less. We, the people, issue a $100 certificate of debt and let the bankers have $99.70 of profit).

All money is issued that way since the adoption of the Central Banks system, and it is now a bona fide money, i.e. it's not backed by gold since 1974. It's only paper accepted by us, the people, as a means of transferring value.

Never heard of President Lincoln's greenbacks? The reason why he was killed?

And of President Kennedy's Executive Order 11,110? The reason why he was killed?

Let's consider this.

We have sick men who have a sick relation with women.
They try to satisfy their urges, urges that they cannot come to terms with.
That they cannot satisfy these urges in a healthy, adult and equal manner, because this implies finding an adult and consenting person who likes them.
Therefore, they resort to buying other people's bodies.

The option considered badly by all of us...

Too many times, these bodies belong to minors and slave, but they don't mind.

The other option...

Sometimes, these bodies belong to a person who says that s(he) is willing selling it for money.
Therefore, the reason why people prostitute themselves is money.
And the reason why people don't have money is bankers and seigniorage (another form of exploitation).

We, the people, at least in the USA, need to apply Esecutive Order 11,110 and let the Treasury issue the amount of money needed for everyone's living in dignity and peace.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/61716721

http://www.scribd.com/doc/61716964

http://www.scribd.com/doc/61716970


And to imprison and cure clients.

It's a two-sided endeavour.

[Yvonne183]

Actually THE primeval form of evil is the male dominance hierarchy. The view of this hierarchy is independent whores can't be allowed to do business. Women can't be allowed to own their own bodies, sell their own services, make their own medical decisions etc.


I also agree.

I also say that this hierarchy is what keeps me from getting a "normal" job so I have to do whatever to survive. I just think that society needs to be fixed as a whole before one thinks that prostitution can be altered or ended.

And Dbev, I feel that you're wrong saying that all customers(men) are perverts. There are some very very lonely men out there who need companionship, even for a short time. And i have found that there is an emotional attachment to some guys, it's not all "wham bam thank you mam". Some guys I met needed someone to talk to cause society through the media keeps telling people what is beautiful and what isn't. As Teydyn said above:

Thats so easy, everyone is a supermodel with an outgoing personality, rich, well spoken. No one is shy, fat, poor, socially akward or just plain ugly. And if people like that even existed, too bad for them. They will never ever touch someone beautiful.

People are social animals, they need comfort from others, not all are good at talking and meeting people, so they resort to what they do, pay for companionship. And some take gifts for being that other person.

I have a question for the OP. If having sex for money is wrong, then what is your opinion on someone getting paid for sex in a porn movie?

[Jericho]

:iagree: 1000%. I sometimes ponder what the world would be like if it were a matriarchy. :geek:
~BB~


If some of the wimmin around here were in charge, there's be more warzones around the world than there are now! :hide-1:

[dbev]

:iagree: 1000%. I sometimes ponder what the world would be like if it were a matriarchy. :geek:

~BB~

The Yin and Yang theory says that we need balance, so the masculine and the femine must be in equilibrium.

But I tend to agree that women are better in almost everything and when they run things, and they keep their feminine characteristics, things are better.

I love and respect women and their absolute rights to self-determination, wasn't this clear enough?

[BellaBellucci]

We have sick men who have a sick relation with women.
They try to satisfy their urges, urges that they cannot come to terms with.
That they cannot satisfy these urges in a healthy, adult and equal manner, because this implies finding an adult and consenting person who likes them.
Therefore, they resort to buying other people's bodies.

The option considered badly by all of us...

Too many times, these bodies belong to minors and slave, but they don't mind.

The other option...

Sometimes, these bodies belong to a person who says that s(he) is willing selling it for money.
Therefore, the reason why people prostitute themselves is money.
And the reason why people don't have money is bankers and seigniorage (another form of exploitation).

We, the people, at least in the USA, need to apply Esecutive Order 11,110 and let the Treasury issue the amount of money needed for everyone's living in dignity and peace.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/61716721

http://www.scribd.com/doc/61716964

http://www.scribd.com/doc/61716970


And to imprison and cure clients.

It's a two-sided endeavour.

Again, talk of central banking is a non-sequitur. Of course the banksters are ripping us off... all of us, but as long as they're doing it equally, how are prostitutes any more vulnerable than anyone else financially? If anything it goes back to what I said earlier about people being jealous that prostitutes 'beat the system,' by earning revenues with such little, or arguably no overheard. It defies the principal that it takes money to make money.

And I'm not sure what the cost of printing money has to do with this. That's not the problem. The problem is that our money supply is not backed or regulated in relation to real wealth (i.e. gold, goods, real estate, natural resources). It's monopoly money. I think more people here understand that than you realize, but that fact does nothing to create an underprivileged class separate from anybody else who isn't a banker, investor, or otherwise wealthy. So much for the middle class. It was a great ride while it lasted.

Oh, and tell me again how you propose to 'imprison and cure' clients. It sounds hypocritical (and fanciful) to me.

~BB~

PS: It's my view that it's actually the entire continent of Africa that is the biggest loser in the conversion to fiat currencies, as it was planned by the anglo-centric world so that they could rape the continent of its natural resources with little to no opposition, with the poorest communities being more than happy to allow atrocious violations of wealth and sovereignty in exchange for a few measly crumbs. :geek:

[dbev]

I also agree.

I also say that this hierarchy is what keeps me from getting a "normal" job so I have to do whatever to survive. I just think that society needs to be fixed as a whole before one thinks that prostitution can be altered or ended.

Agreed and seconded.



And Dbev, I feel that you're wrong saying that all customers(men) are perverts. There are some very very lonely men out there who need companionship, even for a short time. And i have found that there is an emotional attachment to some guys, it's not all "wham bam thank you mam". Some guys I met needed someone to talk to cause society through the media keeps telling people what is beautiful and what isn't.

Agreed and seconded.



As Teydyn said above:

Thats so easy, everyone is a supermodel with an outgoing personality, rich, well spoken. No one is shy, fat, poor, socially akward or just plain ugly. And if people like that even existed, too bad for them. They will never ever touch someone beautiful.

People are social animals, they need comfort from others, not all are good at talking and meeting people, so they resort to what they do, pay for companionship. And some take gifts for being that other person.

Agreed and seconded, but not entirely.

What you describe is not sad, and is not something to be fixed?



I have a question for the OP. If having sex for money is wrong, then what is your opinion on someone getting paid for sex in a porn movie?

And I'll reply honestly.

As I said, I'm switching from professional to amateur porn.

But you're right!

I've always tried to avoid professional porn where I can understand that the producer is also involved in the scene, because that is prostitution to me.

On the other hand, I think that, if two people are both paid to stage a simulacrum of sex, they can be seen as two professionals acting.

Many thanks Yvonne for your reply.

[Yvonne183]

Agreed and seconded.



Agreed and seconded.



Agreed and seconded, but not entirely.

What you describe is not sad, and is not something to be fixed?



And I'll reply honestly.

As I said, I'm switching from professional to amateur porn.

But you're right!

I've always tried to avoid professional porn where I can understand that the producer is also involved in the scene, because that is prostitution to me.

On the other hand, I think that, if two people are both paid to stage a simulacrum of sex, they can be seen as two professionals acting.

Many thanks Yvonne for your reply.

You're welcome and thanks for answering back. I would reply but I don't know what simulacrum means.

[BellaBellucci]

The Yin and Yang theory says that we need balance, so the masculine and the femine must be in equilibrium.

But I tend to agree that women are better in almost everything and when they run things, and they keep their feminine characteristics, things are better.

I love and respect women and their absolute rights to self-determination, wasn't this clear enough?

The Yin and Yang have never been in balance, but eliminating clients for prostitutes does nothing to alleviate that condition. In fact, you're taking away one of the very few sources of female empowerment over our male counterparts by viewing sex as a commodity to which everyone has a right. They don't, and that fact actually helps get us closer to balance IMO because money for sex is fair. If you're a 3 and you want a 10, you should pay for it instead of denying yourself because of some questionable economic boogeyman. Trust me, she ain't gonna sleep with you for free. Hell, most women wouldn't even do it for money.

If you respect self-determination, then you should, by definition, also respect the free market transaction between a prostitute and her client, but you don't. I agree with a lot of what you say in terms of creating equality in the economy, but choosing prostitution as a scapegoat on a site on which many of the girls prostitute as a means of survival, and without offering a real solution to the income issue for women, comes off as trollish, whether that was your intention or not. You really have to admit that.

~BB~

[dbev]

You're welcome and thanks for answering back. I would reply but I don't know what simulacrum means.

an image or representation of someone or something:a small-scale simulacrum of a skyscraper

an unsatisfactory imitation or substitute:a bland simulacrum of American soul music

http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/simulacrum

[BellaBellucci]

an image or representation of someone or something:a small-scale simulacrum of a skyscraper

an unsatisfactory imitation or substitute:a bland simulacrum of American soul music

http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/simulacrum


So what you're saying is that porn's only OK if the sex is fake or if the people involved are already in a relationship, meaning that they have not been 'coerced' by money to perform the act. And you're OK with it being 'an unsatisfactory imitation?' Try starting a thread about this topic here and see how far it goes!

People who accept sex for money are not being coerced. They're being paid for a service. Coercion happens through wages, not self-employment. I don't understand how you can't see that. The only exploitation that I see in prostitution is in the competition of prostitutes who have a race-to-the-bottom attitude towards their rates. You want to level the playing field? Regulate prostitution. Don't outlaw it, particularly not for one party versus the other.

~BB~

[dbev]

The Yin and Yang have never been in balance, but eliminating clients for prostitutes does nothing to alleviate that condition. In fact, you're taking away one of the very few sources of female empowerment over our male counterparts by viewing sex as a commodity that everyone has a right to. They don't, and that fact actually helps get us closer to balance IMO because money for sex is fair. If you're a 3 and you want a 10, you should pay for it instead of denying yourself because of some questionable economic boogeyman.

If you respect self-determination, then you should, by definition, also respect the free market transaction between a prostitute and her client, but you don't. I agree with a lot of what you say in terms of creating equality in the economy, but choosing prostitution as a scapegoat on a site on which many of the girls prostitute as a means of survival, and without offering a real solution to the income issue for women, comes off as trollish, whether that was your intention or not. You really have to admit that.

~BB~

I admit wholeheartedly that the issue is big, and that our society has always been a mess and it's an enourmous problem.

Maybe I wasn't clear enough or you didn't read carefully all my messages.

I don't consider myself to be stupid... I simply and plainly don't like what the Homo Sapiens built on this planet.

I ask questions. I question myself and the current "order" and try apply what I think is a humanist approach to life.

There is not right to use other people's body for one's own pleasure. And you need to consider also children prostitution and sex slavery in the picture.

As you also said, people prostitute themselves for money, either because they don't have it all or because they want more and more.

I hate the free market because it's a con to everyone.

[dbev]

So what you're saying is that porn's only OK if the sex is fake or if the people involved are already in a relationship, meaning that they have not been 'coerced' by money to perform the act. And you're OK with it being 'an unsatisfactory imitation?' Try starting a thread about this topic here and see how far it goes!

People who accept sex for money are not being coerced. They're being paid for a service. I don't understand how you can't see that. The only exploitation that I see in prostitution is in the competition of prostitutes who have a race-to-the-bottom attitude towards their rates. You want to level the playing field? Regulate prostitution. Don't outlaw it, particularly not for one party versus the other.

~BB~

No Bella, you didn't understand a word of what I wrote. And now I'm a bit tired.

Have a nice life, if you can given the world we live in, while I get some rest.

[BellaBellucci]

There is not right to use other people's body for one's own pleasure. And you need to consider also children prostitution and sex slavery in the picture.

You should tell that to most husbands prior to the 1960's... and some that exist today who would disagree with that idea. Furthermore, not all prostitution is without mutual physical enjoyment. Not to mention that fact that some girls like to be 'used.' There are plenty of submissive people out there who take psychological and physical enjoyment from prostitution. Sure, it's the exception, not the rule, but that doesn't make it any less true. In a truly free society, a person has the right to exploit themselves if they so choose.

And again there are those who just see it as a job and nothing more:

‪Secret Diary of a Call Girl: Trailer‬‏ - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wj4E3j8d8PI)

I mean look at the girls on this site who do porn. Plenty of them know they're being exploited financially, even if they're not being so sexually, and not only do they continue to perform, but they cast out people who argue for their rights with fierce opposition. And hell, not to make this about me, but the systematic destruction of my would-be porn career by those who should be agreeing with me is excellent evidence of that fact. While I don't like it, and I think that it's counterproductive to political advancement, it is their right and even I have never said otherwise.

Prostitutes need other opportunities, not just condemnation by proxy in a system that scares all of their clients away. Not to mention that fact that it's been proven over and over and over and over again that sex trafficking numbers are inflated for political purposes. :geek:

~BB~

[BellaBellucci]

No Bella, you didn't understand a word of what I wrote. And now I'm a bit tired.

Actually, it's exactly what you said. I even quoted you. So, umm... :?

~BB~

[trish]

There is not right to use other people's body for one's own pleasure.Of course not. But the claim that there is not right, has no relevance to the issue of whether is can be right in some instances and wrong in others.


And you need to consider also children prostitution and sex slavery in the picture. Of course. But just because children shouldn't be forced to drive rivets into steel girders while balancing themselves a hundred stories above the ground, it doesn't follow that we should ban riveting generally. Children shouldn't be prostitutes, women shouldn't be slaves. Agreed. But where is the argument against the self-employed escort selling her services?

Because children shouldn't be forced to have babies, perhaps you also think women shouldn't take money to be surrogate mothers?

[Erika1487]

Street hookers are a lot like hitting up a drive-thru. Sometimes I'm really hungry but so filthy and smelly that I don't want to be seen. The drive-thru gets me what I want inside the car and no one forces me to take a shower.

Dino you are gold my friend :)

[Nicole Dupre]

Why are TS escorts getting lumped in with any of your philosophies anyway? The world does us no special favors, especially when we first diagnose ourselves with GID. And then from there, we have to FORCE OUT what was supposed to come out of us naturally. And then we're forced to scrape together a considerable amount of money for surgeries, just so we can feel sane in our own skin.

So I don't care about the history of GG escorting or about the Fed. And ya know what? I don't lose sleepover human trafficking. We all live on a big nasty terror-ghetto, named Planet Earth. And you admirer dudes don't care about us one bit. The world doesn't care. And we know it. And you know it. Talk is cheap.

So don't tie us in with GGs, who can bear children and have families, or who get to grow up with the same advantages everyone's daughter deserves. We see a side of the world that would turn your hair white. We all have. We're your birth-defect daughters, humanity! Thanks for hoping we'd just die and go away, unless of course you got the urge to secretly fuck us.

And btw we're NEVER out of the woods, no matter how passable or unclockable. There are countless people in this world who would love to see us dead for simply being who we are. All it takes is tracing a SS# to a name, and we could be in deep shit if the wrong person gets wind of it.

So how dare you come here and preach about a Utopia that we'll never see in our lifetimes, as you sit anonymously behind your keyboard, on a porn forum of all places? How dare you lump us in with GGs AT ALL?! Our reasons for escorting are basically LIGHTYEARS away from theirs.

[Dino Velvet]

Dino you are gold my friend :)

Golden like piss.:cheers:

[BellaBellucci]

Why are TS escorts getting lumped in with any of your philosophies anyway? The world does us no special favors, especially when we first diagnose ourselves with GID. And then from there, we have to FORCE OUT what was supposed to come out of us naturally. And then we're forced to scrape together a considerable amount of money for surgeries, just so we can feel sane in our own skin.

So I don't care about the history of GG escorting or about the Fed. And ya know what? I don't lose sleepover human trafficking. We all live on a big nasty terror-ghetto, named Planet Earth. And you admirer dudes don't care about us one bit. The world doesn't care. And we know it. And you know it. Talk is cheap.

So don't tie us in with GGs, who can bear children and have families, or who get to grow up with the same advantages everyone's daughter deserves. We see a side of the world that would turn your hair white. We all have. We're you're birth-defect daughters, humanity! Thanks for hoping we'd just die and go away, unless of course you got the urge to secretly fuck us.

And btw we're NEVER out of the woods, no matter how passable or unclockable. There are countless people in this world who would love to see us dead for simply being who we are. ll it takes is tracing a SS# to a name, and we could be in deep shit if the wrong person gets wind of it.

So how dare you come here and preach about a Utopia that we'll never see in our lifetimes, as you sit anonymously behind your keyboard, on a porn forum of all places? How dare you lump us in with GGs AT ALL?! Our reasons for escorting are basically LIGHTYEARS away from theirs.

:iagree: That too.

~BB~

[robertlouis]

If some of the wimmin around here were in charge, there's be more warzones around the world than there are now! :hide-1:

Or maybe this one, Jericho? It was a strife-free world when she was in her pomp, wasn't it?

BTW :joke::joke::joke:. I just can't let any opportunity to have a go at Mrs T. Her rule and her beliefs set back the advancement of women in the UK by decades.

[robertlouis]

Why are TS escorts getting lumped in with any of your philosophies anyway? The world does us no special favors, especially when we first diagnose ourselves with GID. And then from there, we have to FORCE OUT what was supposed to come out of us naturally. And then we're forced to scrape together a considerable amount of money for surgeries, just so we can feel sane in our own skin.

So I don't care about the history of GG escorting or about the Fed. And ya know what? I don't lose sleepover human trafficking. We all live on a big nasty terror-ghetto, named Planet Earth. And you admirer dudes don't care about us one bit. The world doesn't care. And we know it. And you know it. Talk is cheap.

So don't tie us in with GGs, who can bear children and have families, or who get to grow up with the same advantages everyone's daughter deserves. We see a side of the world that would turn your hair white. We all have. We're your birth-defect daughters, humanity! Thanks for hoping we'd just die and go away, unless of course you got the urge to secretly fuck us.

And btw we're NEVER out of the woods, no matter how passable or unclockable. There are countless people in this world who would love to see us dead for simply being who we are. All it takes is tracing a SS# to a name, and we could be in deep shit if the wrong person gets wind of it.

So how dare you come here and preach about a Utopia that we'll never see in our lifetimes, as you sit anonymously behind your keyboard, on a porn forum of all places? How dare you lump us in with GGs AT ALL?! Our reasons for escorting are basically LIGHTYEARS away from theirs.

That's a seriously good point, Nicole, and so obvious we've all missed it till now. And every word of it is solid gold truth.

[Erika1487]

Why are TS escorts getting lumped in with any of your philosophies anyway? The world does us no special favors, especially when we first diagnose ourselves with GID. And then from there, we have to FORCE OUT what was supposed to come out of us naturally. And then we're forced to scrape together a considerable amount of money for surgeries, just so we can feel sane in our own skin.

So I don't care about the history of GG escorting or about the Fed. And ya know what? I don't lose sleepover human trafficking. We all live on a big nasty terror-ghetto, named Planet Earth. And you admirer dudes don't care about us one bit. The world doesn't care. And we know it. And you know it. Talk is cheap.

So don't tie us in with GGs, who can bear children and have families, or who get to grow up with the same advantages everyone's daughter deserves. We see a side of the world that would turn your hair white. We all have. We're your birth-defect daughters, humanity! Thanks for hoping we'd just die and go away, unless of course you got the urge to secretly fuck us.

And btw we're NEVER out of the woods, no matter how passable or unclockable. There are countless people in this world who would love to see us dead for simply being who we are. All it takes is tracing a SS# to a name, and we could be in deep shit if the wrong person gets wind of it.

So how dare you come here and preach about a Utopia that we'll never see in our lifetimes, as you sit anonymously behind your keyboard, on a porn forum of all places? How dare you lump us in with GGs AT ALL?! Our reasons for escorting are basically LIGHTYEARS away from theirs.

The world must be coming to an end beause :iagree: 100% with you on this one!

[Yvonne183]

Why are TS escorts getting lumped in with any of your philosophies anyway? The world does us no special favors, especially when we first diagnose ourselves with GID. And then from there, we have to FORCE OUT what was supposed to come out of us naturally. And then we're forced to scrape together a considerable amount of money for surgeries, just so we can feel sane in our own skin.

So I don't care about the history of GG escorting or about the Fed. And ya know what? I don't lose sleepover human trafficking. We all live on a big nasty terror-ghetto, named Planet Earth. And you admirer dudes don't care about us one bit. The world doesn't care. And we know it. And you know it. Talk is cheap.

So don't tie us in with GGs, who can bear children and have families, or who get to grow up with the same advantages everyone's daughter deserves. We see a side of the world that would turn your hair white. We all have. We're your birth-defect daughters, humanity! Thanks for hoping we'd just die and go away, unless of course you got the urge to secretly fuck us.

And btw we're NEVER out of the woods, no matter how passable or unclockable. There are countless people in this world who would love to see us dead for simply being who we are. All it takes is tracing a SS# to a name, and we could be in deep shit if the wrong person gets wind of it.

So how dare you come here and preach about a Utopia that we'll never see in our lifetimes, as you sit anonymously behind your keyboard, on a porn forum of all places? How dare you lump us in with GGs AT ALL?! Our reasons for escorting are basically LIGHTYEARS away from theirs.


Oh my,,, very, very well said. I especially like these lines:

"]We[/I] see a side of the world that would turn your hair white. We all have. We're your birth-defect daughters, humanity! Thanks for hoping we'd just die and go away, unless of course you got the urge to secretly fuck us."


I think Nicole said exactly what is right and said it brilliantly. Nice

[Devilboy]

The "World" doesn't seem to care about anyone....little children getting murdered by their own mothers.....or the pedophile down the street. Innocent people in a classroom when someone decides they have had enough and they are taking a lot of people with them. People in other countries or in this one that starve to death......

Individuals no matter what their gender that never learned coping skills or have a chemical imbalance that makes life unlivable, they decide to swallow a bunch of pills, Vodka chaser, with a plastic bag over their head.

Or the unfortunate individual that is ok, has friends and family that care, and they die in a car wreck coming home from work...

The "World" doesn't care....gender or preference doesn't matter....people get violated, people get killed, exploited, raped, beaten, bullied, terrorized, etc, etc.

It isn't isolated to any one group or profession....it is what it is......

[BellaBellucci]

Or maybe this one, Jericho? It was a strife-free world when she was in her pomp, wasn't it?

BTW :joke::joke::joke:. I just can't let any opportunity to have a go at Mrs T. Her rule and her beliefs set back the advancement of women in the UK by decades.


Please don't confuse a country run by a woman in a man's world with a world run by women. :geek:

~BB~

[Jericho]

Or maybe this one, Jericho? It was a strife-free world when she was in her pomp, wasn't it?

That evil cunt did come to mind, but i couldn't bring myself to type her name! :hide-1:

[robertlouis]

Please don't confuse a country run by a woman in a man's world with a world run by women. :geek:

~BB~

I wasn't, but I certainly recognise the distinction. :Bowdown:

[Jericho]

Please don't confuse a country run by a woman in a man's world with a world run by women. :geek:

~BB~

‪Harry Enfield - Women know your limits‬‏ - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjxY9rZwNGU)

[Nicole Dupre]

The "World" doesn't seem to care about anyone....little children getting murdered by their own mothers.....or the pedophile down the street. Innocent people in a classroom when someone decides they have had enough and they are taking a lot of people with them. People in other countries or in this one that starve to death......

Individuals no matter what their gender that never learned coping skills or have a chemical imbalance that makes life unlivable, they decide to swallow a bunch of pills, Vodka chaser, with a plastic bag over their head.

Or the unfortunate individual that is ok, has friends and family that care, and they die in a car wreck coming home from work...

The "World" doesn't care....gender or preference doesn't matter....people get violated, people get killed, exploited, raped, beaten, bullied, terrorized, etc, etc.

It isn't isolated to any one group or profession....it is what it is......
So what is your point? That the world's cruel,and we're all very fucked because of it? Transsexuals already defied major odds just to be ourselves, and they never end for us in many respects. So tell us something we don't know.

Seriously, if I had to feed or shelter my loved ones, let me tell you, escorting wouldn't be the half of what I might succumb to. And my conscience would be clean.

[BellaBellucci]

‪Harry Enfield - Women know your limits‬‏ - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjxY9rZwNGU)

Mmm... braaaains!

~BB~

[russtafa]

:whistle:i always thought prostitution was for lazy chicks that hated work and loved easy money and were not worried about different dicks going in them

[Devilboy]

So what is your point? That the world's cruel,and we're all very fucked because of it? Transsexuals already defied major odds just to be ourselves, and they never end for us in many respects. So tell us something we don't know.

Seriously, if I had to feed or shelter my loved ones, let me tell you, escorting wouldn't be the half of what I might succumb to. And my conscience would be clean.

My point is everyone has the opportunity to get the short straw....life is what you make of it. Enjoy it or don't...it doesn't matter...good and bad will flow, it will be what it will be. The precious and exploited will have to eat what they are fed. Too many people get caught up in looking outward, when they should be looking inward.

[BellaBellucci]

My point is everyone has the opportunity to get the short straw....life is what you make of it. Enjoy it or don't...it doesn't matter...good and bad will flow, it will be what it will be. The precious and exploited will have to eat what they are fed. Too many people get caught up in looking outward, when they should be looking inward.

While that may be true, it's no excuse for many of the intentional disparities we all face.

~BB~

[Nicole Dupre]

My point is everyone has the opportunity to get the short straw....life is what you make of it. Enjoy it or don't...it doesn't matter...good and bad will flow, it will be what it will be. The precious and exploited will have to eat what they are fed. Too many people get caught up in looking outward, when they should be looking inward.
So the "short straw" is a reason to "look inward"? That's crazy.

[JamesHunt]

What a stupid thread. All guys pay for it eventually one way or another

[robertlouis]

What a stupid thread. All guys pay for it eventually one way or another

That's your point of view. But it has nevertheless generated over 100 posts in 24 hours and brought some interesting views out for discussion, as well as the inevitable HA yelling wars.

[robertlouis]

:whistle:i always thought prostitution was for lazy chicks that hated work and loved easy money and were not worried about different dicks going in them

Ye gods Russ, you seem to have got away with this post. Well done. :Bowdown:

[russtafa]

i snuck that one in and no one noticed lol

[russtafa]

iam just watching the bledisloe cup NZ VS AUSSIE

[dbev]

The Yin and Yang have never been in balance, but eliminating clients for prostitutes does nothing to alleviate that condition. In fact, you're taking away one of the very few sources of female empowerment over our male counterparts by viewing sex as a commodity to which everyone has a right. They don't, and that fact actually helps get us closer to balance IMO because money for sex is fair. If you're a 3 and you want a 10, you should pay for it instead of denying yourself because of some questionable economic boogeyman. Trust me, she ain't gonna sleep with you for free. Hell, most women wouldn't even do it for money.

I agree that the Yin and Yang are always moving, but the human civilization as always had too much of the masculine characteristics and not enough of the feminine ones.

And the accummulation of wealth, in whatever form this wealth comes (including bodies for pleasure) is a masculine feature.



If you respect self-determination, then you should, by definition, also respect the free market transaction between a prostitute and her client, but you don't. I agree with a lot of what you say in terms of creating equality in the economy, but choosing prostitution as a scapegoat on a site on which many of the girls prostitute as a means of survival, and without offering a real solution to the income issue for women, comes off as trollish, whether that was your intention or not. You really have to admit that.

~BB~When people are in need of finding means of survival, there is no self-determination. If you go to a law school, they will tell you that some contracts can be voidable when there is a vice of the will (following the principle coactus voluit tamen voluit - He willed under compulsion, none the less he willed).

The solution, for women, transwomen and everyone else is to reshape society, if our species is not so fundamentally flawed to be not capable of doing so, starting from respect, empathy, compassion and help, instead of exploitation and accummulation.

[dbev]

So what you're saying is that porn's only OK if the sex is fake or if the people involved are already in a relationship, meaning that they have not been 'coerced' by money to perform the act. And you're OK with it being 'an unsatisfactory imitation?' Try starting a thread about this topic here and see how far it goes!

No.

I said that:


if the producer is also in the scene, it is prostitution, because the person is both paying the perfomers and using their bodies;
what happens between prostitutes and clients is not sex, it's a simulacrum;
what happens between two porn performers both paid by a third person to be filmed, is not sex, it's a simulacrum staged for the camera;
sex is something different.



People who accept sex for money are not being coerced. They're being paid for a service. Coercion happens through wages, not self-employment. I don't understand how you can't see that. The only exploitation that I see in prostitution is in the competition of prostitutes who have a race-to-the-bottom attitude towards their rates. You want to level the playing field? Regulate prostitution. Don't outlaw it, particularly not for one party versus the other.

~BB~

I really see your point, and I agree completely with the second part, silly competion on lowering prices by non unionized workers.

What you fail to understand of my point is that:


it's not sex, but a simulacrum of sex, either performed by a person in need for a sick and/or pervert man or staged for the camera;
not everything that can be done should be done or it's justifiable;
I have no desire to see prostitutes criminalized, because they are the fragile and exploited part of the bargain. I want to see clients criminalized, and then cured. And I also want to see the hypocrisy of this society exposed (and you all transwomen beautifully wrote of this hyprocrisy).

[dbev]

You should tell that to most husbands prior to the 1960's... and some that exist today who would disagree with that idea. Furthermore, not all prostitution is without mutual physical enjoyment. Not to mention that fact that some girls like to be 'used.' There are plenty of submissive people out there who take psychological and physical enjoyment from prostitution. Sure, it's the exception, not the rule, but that doesn't make it any less true. In a truly free society, a person has the right to exploit themselves if they so choose.

As I said, I don't think so. Not all that comes to the human mind can be allowed.
For example, some days ago I read the story of a cannibal in Germany. Many of his victims were consensual, that is, they wanted to be eaten alive. One of these victims, a homosexual man, let the cannibal cut his genitals with no anesthesia. Then the cannibal cooked his genitals, they ate them together while the victim was bleeding to death. And, finally, when the victim died, the cannibal finished eating him.



And again there are those who just see it as a job and nothing more:

‪Secret Diary of a Call Girl: Trailer‬‏ - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wj4E3j8d8PI)
A job that was born in a society where exploitation is the basis of relationships. A job done by people in need for money. A job used by people either perverted or sick or being cast away by a society that doesn't value them.



I mean look at the girls on this site who do porn. Plenty of them know they're being exploited financially, even if they're not being so sexually, and not only do they continue to perform, but they cast out people who argue for their rights with fierce opposition. And hell, not to make this about me, but the systematic destruction of my would-be porn career by those who should be agreeing with me is excellent evidence of that fact. While I don't like it, and I think that it's counterproductive to political advancement, it is their right and even I have never said otherwise.I couldn't agree more with you! You're right.



Prostitutes need other opportunities, not just condemnation by proxy in a system that scares all of their clients away. Not to mention that fact that it's been proven over and over and over and over again that sex trafficking numbers are inflated for political purposes. :geek:

~BB~

Again:


I do not condemn prostitutes
I couldn't agree more with you on the need for other opportunities, that is, the need for a society built on different bases.

Actually, from my reading, I believe that the numbers of sex trafficking are even greater, and that they are kept low in order to avoid a real global revolution if people know what a global organisaton does with children and women.

[dbev]

Of course not. But the claim that there is not right, has no relevance to the issue of whether is can be right in some instances and wrong in others.

Of course. But just because children shouldn't be forced to drive rivets into steel girders while balancing themselves a hundred stories above the ground, it doesn't follow that we should ban riveting generally. Children shouldn't be prostitutes, women shouldn't be slaves. Agreed. But where is the argument against the self-employed escort selling her services?

I completely agree with you on labour. Full stop.

I wrote my points several times.



Because children shouldn't be forced to have babies, perhaps you also think women shouldn't take money to be surrogate mothers?

I've seen what becomes of the surrogate mothers market... and I don't like it.

[dbev]

Why are TS escorts getting lumped in with any of your philosophies anyway? The world does us no special favors, especially when we first diagnose ourselves with GID. And then from there, we have to FORCE OUT what was supposed to come out of us naturally. And then we're forced to scrape together a considerable amount of money for surgeries, just so we can feel sane in our own skin.

So I don't care about the history of GG escorting or about the Fed. And ya know what? I don't lose sleepover human trafficking. We all live on a big nasty terror-ghetto, named Planet Earth. And you admirer dudes don't care about us one bit. The world doesn't care. And we know it. And you know it. Talk is cheap.

So don't tie us in with GGs, who can bear children and have families, or who get to grow up with the same advantages everyone's daughter deserves. We see a side of the world that would turn your hair white. We all have. We're your birth-defect daughters, humanity! Thanks for hoping we'd just die and go away, unless of course you got the urge to secretly fuck us.

And btw we're NEVER out of the woods, no matter how passable or unclockable. There are countless people in this world who would love to see us dead for simply being who we are. All it takes is tracing a SS# to a name, and we could be in deep shit if the wrong person gets wind of it.

So how dare you come here and preach about a Utopia that we'll never see in our lifetimes, as you sit anonymously behind your keyboard, on a porn forum of all places? How dare you lump us in with GGs AT ALL?! Our reasons for escorting are basically LIGHTYEARS away from theirs.

Nicole, you're attacking the wrong person.

When I wrote and write WOMEN, I mean and always meant ALL women, including TRANSWOMEN. I am deeply sorry for not making myself clear and if I offended TRANSWOMEN with my writing.

I really want to thank you and the other TRANSWOMEN for replying and being so sincere.

To me, respect for what people are is paramount. You and the other TRANSWOMEN are good or bad people not because of your container (your physical appearance), but because of your content (your brain).

If there were more people like me, let me say this, you wouldn't have had a single problem in your life, you would have all the rights to have families, have children, run for whatever elective office, and so on...

By the way, Iceland prime minister is a homosexual woman.

[dbev]

Again, talk of central banking is a non-sequitur. Of course the banksters are ripping us off... all of us, but as long as they're doing it equally, how are prostitutes any more vulnerable than anyone else financially? If anything it goes back to what I said earlier about people being jealous that prostitutes 'beat the system,' by earning revenues with such little, or arguably no overheard. It defies the principal that it takes money to make money.

And I'm not sure what the cost of printing money has to do with this. That's not the problem. The problem is that our money supply is not backed or regulated in relation to real wealth (i.e. gold, goods, real estate, natural resources). It's monopoly money. I think more people here understand that than you realize, but that fact does nothing to create an underprivileged class separate from anybody else who isn't a banker, investor, or otherwise wealthy. So much for the middle class. It was a great ride while it lasted.

Oh, and tell me again how you propose to 'imprison and cure' clients. It sounds hypocritical (and fanciful) to me.

~BB~

PS: It's my view that it's actually the entire continent of Africa that is the biggest loser in the conversion to fiat currencies, as it was planned by the anglo-centric world so that they could rape the continent of its natural resources with little to no opposition, with the poorest communities being more than happy to allow atrocious violations of wealth and sovereignty in exchange for a few measly crumbs. :geek:

Read the documents and you will understand why most of us has not enough money.

[JamieCoxx]

That's actually exactly why I got into it. No irony intended. Work fucking sucks - why wouldn't you get paid to get laid if the demand was there? Best years of my life have been the last 5. THANK YOU CRAIGSLIST!


:whistle:i always thought prostitution was for lazy chicks that hated work and loved easy money and were not worried about different dicks going in them

[Birgitta]

Why are TS escorts getting lumped in with any of your philosophies anyway? The world does us no special favors, especially when we first diagnose ourselves with GID. And then from there, we have to FORCE OUT what was supposed to come out of us naturally. And then we're forced to scrape together a considerable amount of money for surgeries, just so we can feel sane in our own skin.

So I don't care about the history of GG escorting or about the Fed. And ya know what? I don't lose sleepover human trafficking. We all live on a big nasty terror-ghetto, named Planet Earth. And you admirer dudes don't care about us one bit. The world doesn't care. And we know it. And you know it. Talk is cheap.

So don't tie us in with GGs, who can bear children and have families, or who get to grow up with the same advantages everyone's daughter deserves. We see a side of the world that would turn your hair white. We all have. We're your birth-defect daughters, humanity! Thanks for hoping we'd just die and go away, unless of course you got the urge to secretly fuck us.

And btw we're NEVER out of the woods, no matter how passable or unclockable. There are countless people in this world who would love to see us dead for simply being who we are. All it takes is tracing a SS# to a name, and we could be in deep shit if the wrong person gets wind of it.

So how dare you come here and preach about a Utopia that we'll never see in our lifetimes, as you sit anonymously behind your keyboard, on a porn forum of all places? How dare you lump us in with GGs AT ALL?! Our reasons for escorting are basically LIGHTYEARS away from theirs.

Wow that was a good post, coming from you :)

[Nicole Dupre]

Wow that was a good post, coming from you :)
How wonderful. But I don't need your praise. You're just some dude. I don't believe your story, about lots of gay sex before transitioning, to this supposed M2F celibacy, for a second. There are too many red flags in the vague story you're presenting.

I also don't give a shit about how this James F. guy escaped Pizza Hut by becoming a CD hooker. lol You're either a TS, or you're something else imo. But then, I can't relate to most P/T people anyway. I'm far more impressed by a girl like AsiaMei, who's just living a real TS life.

[Birgitta]

How wonderful. But I don't need your praise. You're just some dude. I don't believe your story, about lots of gay sex before transitioning, to this supposed M2F celibacy, for a second. There are too many red flags in the vague story you're presenting.

I also don't give a shit about how this James F. guy escaped Pizza Hut by becoming a CD hooker. lol You're either a TS, or you're something else imo. But then, I can't relate to most P/T people anyway. I'm far more impressed by a girl like AsiaMei, who's just living a real TS life.

Hey lol i did not have lots of gay sex and i have always been strictly bttm and never let anyone touch me male parts, since the hormones iv become more accepting about it...
And im absolutely not celibate now, in fact lately i have a pretty strong libido and sexuality that i do truely enjoy....as opposed to my sexuality when i had no chemical castration and female hormones, my life improved a lot overall...

As a boy i used to shun people and hide away from life...i am now openly ts and have more friends then before, i even have a love life...so if i die today...my life has been worth it !

I think you are just assuming to much about me
X
Birgitta

[JamieCoxx]

Talking to me? Not impressed with me for living a life sans qualifier?


How wonderful. But I don't need your praise. You're just some dude. I don't believe your story, about lots of gay sex before transitioning, to this supposed M2F celibacy, for a second. There are too many red flags in the vague story you're presenting.

I also don't give a shit about how this James F. guy escaped Pizza Hut by becoming a CD hooker. lol You're either a TS, or you're something else imo. But then, I can't relate to most P/T people anyway. I'm far more impressed by a girl like AsiaMei, who's just living a real TS life.

[Nicole Dupre]

You can earn a living however you want. But P/T CDs don't impress me to begin with. It's not you personally. When you said to Allanah that you couldn't relate to trannys wanting their facial hair removed, I don't take it personally. I wasn't even very hairy. lol But it is a distinct difference in priorities. And yeah, I just don't see other escorts as being like transsexual escorts. The motivations are always different.

[JamieCoxx]

A: Was I suppose to be trying to impress you? If so, for what purpose?

B: What is this facial hair thing you're talking about? I never said anything about facial hair...

[JamieCoxx]

Know what? I don't give a shit. I got to get to bed so I'll put like this and then add you to my ignore list - at 32 I don't have time for internet forum hijinx.

You sound like you spend a lot of your time and energy defining who you are as a gender rather than who you ought to be as a well rounded person. That's the main reason you can't relate to someone like me.

I've never been confused, at odds with, or tormented by anything that has to do with my gender because I was always more concerned with how I could listen to music better. You dig? When you were depressed I was building model rockets. While you were struggling I was teaching myself how computers worked. I became a well rounded, gregarious, Alpha personality. No matter how I look or what I do for a living people of all sorts will always want to be around me, keep me company, fuck me, love me - the whole bit, because I'm a human first and everything else second, most especially a gender. That's like the least important most superficial thing anyone could be concerned about.

So you go ahead and do whatever it is you do, and I'll continue to make cash hand over fist, living the adventure, using all my skills as a human being despite not being a member of whatever little club you're touting the merits of.

[Birgitta]

Know what? I don't give a shit. I got to get to bed so I'll put like this and then add you to my ignore list - at 32 I don't have time for internet forum hijinx.

You sound like you spend a lot of your time and energy defining who you are as a gender rather than who you ought to be as a well rounded person. That's the main reason you can't relate to someone like me.

I've never been confused, at odds with, or tormented by anything that has to do with my gender because I was always more concerned with how I could listen to music better. You dig? When you were depressed I was building model rockets. While you were struggling I was teaching myself how computers worked. I became a well rounded, gregarious, Alpha personality. No matter how I look or what I do for a living people of all sorts will always want to be around me, keep me company, fuck me, love me - the whole bit, because I'm a human first and everything else second, most especially a gender. That's like the least important most superficial thing anyone could be concerned about.

So you go ahead and do whatever it is you do, and I'll continue to make cash hand over fist, living the adventure, using all my skills as a human being despite not being a member of whatever little club you're touting the merits of.

Lol i would take another route if i ran into you on the streets ! Eeeek!

[JamieCoxx]

Why's that? (must've seen one of my music videos!)


Lol i would take another route if i ran into you on the streets ! Eeeek!

[LittleGuy]

Damn Nicole hates all the girls on here.

[Nicole Dupre]

lol Okaaaaaaay. lol

A year ago, right before Jamie/James swore that he would never return to HA, because he was caught posting fake PM threats from people; he told Allanah that he thought TS beard removal was a waste of money, and that he'd rather buy recording equipment. I remember it clearly. Someone can find that thread, I'm sure.

Anyway, I still don't care how a Pizza Hut dude turned his life around by selling dick. It's not like being a TS. Sorry.Ignore me all you want.

[Nicole Dupre]

And, ironically, I can still see his damn beard hue from here, in the av. But to each their own. Keep rockin' the those big ol' gym socks. lol

[onmyknees]

Thats allright, i am under the impression that phobun is one of the cool guys here :) but where is he ?

You probably just disqualified yourself from being taken seriously ever again. Phobun is a reprehensible human being. As far as him being away for awhile, my thought is he got caught in some gay glory hole establishment and can't afford the bail.

[Jericho]

You probably just disqualified yourself from being taken seriously ever again. Phobun is a reprehensible human being. As far as him being away for awhile, my thought is he got caught in some gay glory hole establishment and can't afford the bail.

Gaysian wasn't Phobun?

[dbev]

Prostitution in Sweden - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Sweden)


The Kvinnofrid law (1999)

The resulting government bill (February 5, 1998) packaged both commission reports together as a Violence Against Women Act (Kvinnofrid) [33] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Sweden#cite_note-32) including criminalisation of purchase in the prostitution provisions [34] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Sweden#cite_note-33) and measures to combat Sexual harassment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia@@AMEPARAM@@/wiki/File:Sexes-planetary-sym-dimcolors.svg" class="image"><img alt="Sexes-planetary-sym-dimcolors.svg" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/53/Sexes-planetary-sym-dimcolors.svg/28px-Sexes-planetary-sym-dimcolors.svg.png"@@AMEPARAM@@commons/thumb/5/53/Sexes-planetary-sym-dimcolors.svg/28px-Sexes-planetary-sym-dimcolors.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_harassment) and the Minister of Gender Equality, [35] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Sweden#cite_note-34) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulrika_Messing. The Justice Committee was not convinced that criminalisation would reduce prostitution, but still recommended the bill. [2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Sweden#cite_note-ys04-1)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yvonne_Svanstr%C3%B6m (Department of Economic History, Stockholm University) describes [2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Sweden#cite_note-ys04-1)[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Sweden#cite_note-ys05-7) the debates as being heavily gendered. Men tended to argue that this was a social, not criminal, matter and that the bill intruded on self determination, while the women argued that prostitution was incompatible with a social order embracing gender equity. They saw prostitution as patriarchal oppression, and therefore not a free will choice, although there was less unanimity over what should be done. The uniqueness of the proposal was emphasised, all of which took place at an ideological level with no appeal to empiricism, which was explicitly rejected. [2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Sweden#cite_note-ys04-1) Eventually the bill passed on June 4, 1998 [36] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Sweden#cite_note-35) by 181 to 92 in a 349-member chamber, becoming law on January 1, 1999. [2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Sweden#cite_note-ys04-1) On 1 April 2005 this provision was transferred to the Penal Code [37] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Sweden#cite_note-brb-36) as section 11 of a new sexual crimes chapter (6).

[BellaBellucci]

@dbev: I've debated enough here today so I'm not going to argue with you point-by-point. I will say this though: I do think you're heart's in the right place even if I disagree with your methodology and was hard on you for it.

Cheers!

~BB~

[dbev]

Prostitution in Norway - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia@@AMEPARAM@@/wiki/File:Flag_of_Norway.svg" class="image"><img alt="Flag of Norway.svg" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d9/Flag_of_Norway.svg/39px-Flag_of_Norway.svg.png"@@AMEPARAM@@commons/thumb/d/d9/Flag_of_Norway.svg/39px-Flag_of_Norway.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Norway)

In November 2008 the Storting passed legislation which criminalised purchasing sex. This became section 202a of the Norwegian Criminal code - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia@@AMEPARAM@@/wiki/File:Standard_legirons_taiwan01.jpg" class="image"><img alt="Stub icon" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b8/Standard_legirons_taiwan01.jpg/40px-Standard_legirons_taiwan01.jpg"@@AMEPARAM@@commons/thumb/b/b8/Standard_legirons_taiwan01.jpg/40px-Standard_legirons_taiwan01.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_Code). [12] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Norway#cite_note-11)

Section 202a Any person who (a) engages in or aids and abets another person to engage in sexual activity or commit a sexual act on making or agreeing payment,
(b)engages in sexual activity or a sexual act on such payment being agreed or made by another person, or
(c) in the manner described in (a) or (b) causes someone to carry out with herself or himself acts corresponding to sexual activity, shall be liable to fines or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months or to both. If the sexual activity or sexual act is carried out in a particularly offensive manner and no penalty may be imposed pursuant to other provisions, the penalty shall be imprisonment for a term not exceeding one year

[Dino Velvet]

Dino: Bella, if I give you $20,000, may I please have sexual intercourse with you?
Bella: Get in here, fat boy, and put the large envelope on the table.

That's what you call "consensual". I get what I want and so does Bella.

[BellaBellucci]

Dino: Bella, if I give you $20,000, may I please have sexual intercourse with you?
Bella: Get in here, fat boy, and put the large envelope on the table.

That's what you call "consensual". I get what I want and so does Bella.

$20,000? Promise?! Awesome. Another date like that and I'll be able to afford a loaf of bread in 2013. :dancing:

~BB~

[dbev]

Prostitution in Iceland - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia@@AMEPARAM@@/wiki/File:SexStub.svg" class="image"><img alt="Stub icon" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/20/SexStub.svg/40px-SexStub.svg.png"@@AMEPARAM@@commons/thumb/2/20/SexStub.svg/40px-SexStub.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Iceland)

Paying for sex is illegal in Iceland - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia@@AMEPARAM@@/wiki/File:Flag_of_Iceland.svg" class="image" title="Flag of Iceland"><img alt="" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/ce/Flag_of_Iceland.svg/125px-Flag_of_Iceland.svg.png"@@AMEPARAM@@commons/thumb/c/ce/Flag_of_Iceland.svg/125px-Flag_of_Iceland.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iceland). In April 2009, the Icelandic Parliament passed new legislation that makes paying for sex illegal (the client commits a crime, but not the prostitute).[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Iceland#cite_note-0) [2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Iceland#cite_note-1) [3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Iceland#cite_note-2) [4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Iceland#cite_note-3) Opinion polls have shown that up to 70% of the Icelandic population supports banning the purchase of sexual services.
The original plan, by the then Minister of Social Affairs, Ásta Ragnheidur Jóhannesdóttir (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%C3%81sta_Ragnheidur_J%C3%B3hannes d%C3%B3ttir&action=edit&redlink=1), included both prostitution and stripping. [5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Iceland#cite_note-4) Strip shows have been banned since 2010. [6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Iceland#cite_note-5) [7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Iceland#cite_note-6) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johanna_Sigur%C3%B0ardottir, Iceland's prime minister, who is an open lesbian, said: "The Nordic countries are leading the way on women's equality, recognizing women as equal citizens rather than commodities for sale." [8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Iceland#cite_note-7) The politician behind the bill, Kolbrún Halldórsdóttir - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia@@AMEPARAM@@/wiki/File:Kolbr%C3%BAn_Halld%C3%B3rsd%C3%B3ttir.jpg" class="image"><img alt="" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e9/Kolbr%C3%BAn_Halld%C3%B3rsd%C3%B3ttir.jpg/220px-Kolbr%C3%BAn_Halld%C3%B3rsd%C3%B3ttir.jpg"@@AMEPARAM@@commons/thumb/e/e9/Kolbr%C3%BAn_Halld%C3%B3rsd%C3%B3ttir.jpg/220px-Kolbr%C3%BAn_Halld%C3%B3rsd%C3%B3ttir.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolbr%C3%BAn_Halld%C3%B3rsd%C3%B3ttir), said: "It is not acceptable that women or people in general are a product to be sold."[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Iceland#cite_note-8) The law is supported by Icelandic feminists. [10] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Iceland#cite_note-9) Internationally, Radical feminism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia@@AMEPARAM@@/wiki/File:Womanpower_logo.svg" class="image"><img alt="Womanpower logo.svg" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b7/Womanpower_logo.svg/100px-Womanpower_logo.svg.png"@@AMEPARAM@@commons/thumb/b/b7/Womanpower_logo.svg/100px-Womanpower_logo.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radical_feminists), such as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julie_Bindel, have celebrated the ban as a landmark decision for feminism. [11] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Iceland#cite_note-10) Other Blog - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia@@AMEPARAM@@/wiki/File:Talkingpointsmemo2.png" class="image"><img alt="" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/4/4f/Talkingpointsmemo2.png/300px-Talkingpointsmemo2.png"@@AMEPARAM@@en/thumb/4/4f/Talkingpointsmemo2.png/300px-Talkingpointsmemo2.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloggers) disagree, arguing that it may drive the industry underground.[12] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Iceland#cite_note-11) [13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Iceland#cite_note-12)


History

Before 2007, selling sex was illegal: according to the 206th article of the Icelandic Penal Code (almenn hegningarlög): "Anyone engaging in prostitution for own upkeep shall be subject to imprisonment for up to 2 years." That paragraph was deleted in 2007, as the government argued that most people who sell sex do so because they have no other choice or because they are forced into prostitution by others. By making selling sex legal, the government believes individuals who have been forced into prostitution would rather come forward and lead police to those responsible. [14] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Iceland#cite_note-13) [15] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Iceland#cite_note-14) This move was supported by international women's groups. [16] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Iceland#cite_note-15)


Finally, in 2009, the paying for sex was outlawed, criminalizing the clients, while selling sex remained decriminalized. The new law has put Iceland in line with Sweden - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia@@AMEPARAM@@/wiki/File:Flag_of_Sweden.svg" class="image" title="Flag of Sweden"><img alt="" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4c/Flag_of_Sweden.svg/125px-Flag_of_Sweden.svg.png"@@AMEPARAM@@commons/thumb/4/4c/Flag_of_Sweden.svg/125px-Flag_of_Sweden.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden) and Norway - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia@@AMEPARAM@@/wiki/File:Flag_of_Norway.svg" class="image" title="Flag of Norway"><img alt="" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d9/Flag_of_Norway.svg/125px-Flag_of_Norway.svg.png"@@AMEPARAM@@commons/thumb/d/d9/Flag_of_Norway.svg/125px-Flag_of_Norway.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norway).

[dbev]

@dbev: I've debated enough here today so I'm not going to argue with you point-by-point. I will say this though: I do think you're heart's in the right place even if I disagree with your methodology and was hard on you for it.

Cheers!

~BB~

At least, we're - in an almost civilised manner - talking about the society we will and its foundation: exploitation!

Cheers and happy life Bella!

[Dino Velvet]

$20,000? Promise?! Awesome. Another date like that and I'll be able to afford a loaf of bread in 2013. :dancing:

~BB~

See? It's even better than consensual. For 20K I'm getting some serious sweet lovin' from Bella. I was in the mood for some Italian too.:fuckin:

[Teydyn]

One thing bugs me:

Women are prostitutes do not "sell" themself, though we can talk about rent... :D

[BellaBellucci]

See? It's even better than consensual. For 20K I'm getting some serious sweet lovin' from Bella. I was in the mood for some Italian too.:fuckin:

That's a spicy meat-a-ball! :dancing:


One thing bugs me:

Women are prostitutes do not "sell" themself, though we can talk about rent... :D

So true. I've been saying that for years! :lol:

~BB~

[Dino Velvet]

That's a spicy meat-a-ball! :dancing:


~BB~

I'll leave a spicy meatball on your sheets if you make me cum too hard.:jerkoff

[dbev]

"Banking was conceived in iniquity and was born in sin. The bankers own the Earth. Take it away from them, but leave them the power to create money, and with the flick of the pen they will create enough deposits to buy it back again. However, take away from them the power to create money and all the great fortunes like mine will disappear and they ought to disappear, for this would be a happier and better world to live in. But, if you wish to remain the slaves of bankers and pay the cost of your own slavery, let them continue to create money."
(Said to be from an informal talk at the University of Texas in the 1920s)

Josiah Charles Stamp (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josiah_Stamp,_1st_Baron_Stamp)

[dbev]

"And I sincerely believe, with you, that banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies; and that the principle of spending money to be paid by posterity, under the name of funding, is but swindling futurity on a large scale."

Thomas Jefferson to John Taylor, 28 May 1816

"Bank-paper must be suppressed, and the circulating medium must be restored to the nation to whom it belongs."

Thomas Jefferson to John Wayles Eppes, 24 June 1813

[dbev]

Just to make a bit clearer what my believes are, I'm not a Christian.

Too many people state that they are Christian but they don't behave accordingly at all.

I see myself in this movement:

Unitarian Universalism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia@@AMEPARAM@@/wiki/File:Mergefrom.svg" class="image"><img alt="Mergefrom.svg" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0f/Mergefrom.svg/50px-Mergefrom.svg.png"@@AMEPARAM@@commons/thumb/0/0f/Mergefrom.svg/50px-Mergefrom.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarian_Universalism)

We, the member congregations of the Unitarian Universalist Association, covenant to affirm and promote


The inherent worth and dignity of every person;
Justice, equity and compassion in human relations;
Acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual growth in our congregations;
A free and responsible search for truth and meaning;
The right of conscience and the use of the democratic process within our congregations and in society at large;
The goal of world community with peace, liberty and justice for all;
Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part.[20] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarian_Universalism#cite_note-19)

[Nicole Dupre]

Just to make a bit clearer what my believes are, I'm not a Christian.

Too many people state that they are Christian but they don't behave accordingly at all.

I see myself in this movement:

Unitarian Universalism - Wikipedia, the free [email]encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarian_Universalism)

We, the member congregations of the Unitarian Universalist Association, covenant to affirm and promote


The inherent worth and dignity of every person;
Justice, equity and compassion in human relations;
Acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual growth in our congregations;
A free and responsible search for truth and meaning;
The right of conscience and the use of the democratic process within our congregations and in society at large;
The goal of world community with peace, liberty and justice for all;
Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part.[20] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarian_Universalism#cite_note-19)


Fascinating.

[needsum]

i'll leave a spicy meatball on your sheets if you make me cum too hard.:jerkoff


hahahahahahahahahahaha

[needsum]

Oh for fucks sake..... Shaadaaaap already!