Muslims

[russtafa]

Well aren't you easily amazed...

We Americans aren't Europeans, or Brits. Since we don't have much of a problem with the American Muslim population, it's hard not to assume that the European & eurocentric problems are just a consequence of their own attitudes. Especially when taking the rants of the eurocentric hate mongers into account.
hippie i miss your rubbish ,where have you been at a liberal protest seminar. lol

[hippifried]

Nah. I was getting a head start on brainwashing the next generation.

[russtafa]

Way to go hippie, you point those kid's in the right direction

[yodajazz]

I am amazed at you American liberals and how you ignore the problems of massed muslim immigration to Europe.England alone has so many terrorist plots from their muslim population that i am surprised that their security service can monitor all of them.There is a constant cry from their muslim population for muslim law and you liberal/ostrich's cant see a problem.\
Also keep in mind, that there are huge, unlimited profits, and absolute power, for others by keeping you/us in fear. On 9/10/01 Secretary of Defense, Donald Rumsfeld, anounced that there was maybe a trillion dollars of unaccounted money spent by his dept of defense. The very next day, it was all forgotten and the public was ready to give more money, with no questions asked.

And another thing, no 'liberal' wants to protect criminal activity. Legal rights are for the protection of the innocent. I come from a community where innocent people have too often been targeted by the police. People who dont commit crimes are entitled to certain rights, period.

[envivision]

Word from London that Paris H. converted to islamic :praying:

[robertlouis]

Word from London that Paris H. converted to islamic :praying:

Let's hope she goes for the full burqua and shuts the fuck up, then.

[hippifried]

Let's hope she goes for the full burqua and shuts the fuck up, then.
Thought Paris burkas were illegal. Oh well. She can cover her hair & go nekkid.

[robertlouis]

Here's an article from this week's New Statesman magazine in the UK, where a quran-burner has just been jailed for 70 days in Carlisle. Personally, I'm proud to live in a society that recognises that there should be some constraint on free speech when it involves active incitement towards hatred and violence and idiots like Pastor Jones can carry on with their insanity, knowing exactly what it will provoke. Jail the fucker.

"If you burn a Quran you should go to jail. Do not pass Go. Do not collect £100.

Sorry if that sounds a bit intolerant. Brashly illiberal. But these happy arsonists who think it's a giggle to torch a religious text and screw the consequences aren't averse to a bit of brash intolerance themselves.

Actually that's not right. It's not that they're averse to the consequences. They're all too aware of them. Social division and disorder are the ends, a box of matches, jerrycan of petrol and Waterstone's discount card the means.

At the weekend the BNP joined the list of those endorsing this particularly pernicious branch of DIY. The Observer was passed a video showing a "Sion Owens, 40, from south Wales and a candidate for the forthcoming Welsh Assembly elections, soaking the Quran in kerosene and setting fire to it".

The reaction from the Welsh police was swift: "We always adopt an extremely robust approach to allegations of this sort and find this sort of intolerance unacceptable in our society." Owens was arrested, charged and subsequently released, though he was informed that "investigations were continuing and that "almost certainly other proceedings will ensue".

Good. Nicking Nazi pyromaniacs is what I want my police to be doing. It's what we all want our police to be doing, isn't it?

Apparently not. According to Alex Massie in the Spectator, "even goons and other dreadful people have rights and these should include the right to burn books in their garden". And the Tory MEP Daniel Hannan believes that burning the Quran "makes you a dummkopf, not a criminal . . . Some other countries fight false ideas with the force of law. We should fight them with truth."

Actually Daniel, we should fight them with both.
Think of a motive

Those who defend Quran-burning on the basis of free speech miss the point. For a start, it's not free. It requires someone to go out, buy a book, buy petrol (not even cheap at the moment, never mind free), light it, film the whole thing and then distribute the proceedings to whatever little clique they call their friends, or more widely on YouTube or some other "social" medium. This is an overt, conscious action, motivated by malign intent. It is not the product of open, free-spirited discourse, but an aggressive, premeditated provocation.

Nor is it actually speech. It's not opening a dialogue or building an argument. Quite the opposite. It's a deliberate act of destruction; the destruction of a dialogue and argument constructed by others. If you don't like Islam, fine. Write a book about why. Don't burn one.

Those who see the heavy hand of the law as a disproportionate response to this act of bibliophobia are themselves losing perspective.

It's not just the action, it's the consequences. We know what Quran-burning leads to. In the past couple of weeks it has resulted in innocent people being murdered and maimed. It's increased the threat to British and western troops serving overseas. It's boosted the Taliban and other terrorist organisations.

If our laws do not exist to prevent people from deliberately engaging in actions and activity that incite others to murder, propagate international terrorism and lay the seeds of civil disorder, what are they for?

We have laws to protect a book's copyright. We have laws to protect the intellectual rights of the person who wrote and published it. But we shouldn't have laws to prevent that book being treated in a manner that leads to half a dozen people being decapitated?

Hannan writes that anyone who burned a Quran would argue that they are "not to blame for any bloody consequences and, in a sense, this is true: any retaliation will be entirely the responsibility of its perpetrators". But the law does not hold to account solely those who perpetrate the final criminal act. That's why it's not just illegal to use a firearm, or drugs, but also illegal to supply them.
Brag all about it

There are always difficulties in drawing a line between rights and responsibilities, but Quran-burning seems a good place to start.

There's an old saying that free speech doesn't extend to running into a theatre and shouting, "Fire!"

Personally, I think it depends on context. I haven't got a problem with someone doing that, so long as there's no one else in there, or it's a production by Tim Rice.

It's the same principle. If you have a desperate urge to put the Quran, or any other book, to the flame, and you do so in genuine privacy, then I suppose there's nothing I or anyone else can do about it, because we won't be any the wiser.

But if you brag about it, or taunt others with it, or use it as a weapon to prosecute your war of intolerance and prejudice, don't be surprised if you suddenly find a few members of Her Majesty's Constabulary on your doorstep.

You know the game that you're playing. Please spare us the crocodile tears when you lose."

[russtafa]

I would love to ban all religion but you would be going against millions of weak people that need it like a junkie need's drugs

[Ineeda SM]

I would love to ban all religion but you would be going against millions of weak people that need it like a junkie needs drugs

:iagree:See we agree on something. I keep telling you we are on the same side.:iagree:

But! Go into our deep south to right wing America and say that remark. You won't leave without severe bodily damage.

[theone1982]

I think all current religions will slowly die off in the future. The question is, what will replace them? The sentiment to worship something seems to be a constant throughout human history.

[robertlouis]

I think all current religions will slowly die off in the future. The question is, what will replace them? The sentiment to worship something seems to be a constant throughout human history.

Well, Marx said that religion is the opium of the masses.

Nowadays opium is the religion of the masses.....

[theone1982]

Well, Marx said that religion is the opium of the masses.

Nowadays opium is the religion of the masses.....

Lol! That might be true!:)
YouTube - Family Guy - Passion Of The Christ 2 Crusify This (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhg5L5z46iU&feature=related)

[robertlouis]

Lol! That might be true!:)
YouTube - Family Guy - Passion Of The Christ 2 Crusify This (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhg5L5z46iU&feature=related)

I'm telling you, it's everywhere.

[russtafa]

This religious thing for muslims and christians is self perpetuating and wont fade away

[hippifried]

I think all current religions will slowly die off in the future. The question is, what will replace them? The sentiment to worship something seems to be a constant throughout human history.
Sentiment to worship? I'm thinking that the "sentiment" is just curiosity. Humans have been asking abstract questions for thousands of years. By contrast, we've only been able to access answers with any accuracy for the last couple of centuries. Worship has just become a habit, because it's only recently that there's been an alternative. Just sayin'.

[theone1982]

Sentiment to worship? I'm thinking that the "sentiment" is just curiosity. Humans have been asking abstract questions for thousands of years. By contrast, we've only been able to access answers with any accuracy for the last couple of centuries. Worship has just become a habit, because it's only recently that there's been an alternative. Just sayin'.

Fair point. Although I think there will always be a "fetishistic" aspect to human nature, even if it comes to down to something as simple as someone's favorite shirt. Just because there is access to answers doesn't mean everyone will take the logical course.

[robertlouis]

Sentiment to worship? I'm thinking that the "sentiment" is just curiosity. Humans have been asking abstract questions for thousands of years. By contrast, we've only been able to access answers with any accuracy for the last couple of centuries. Worship has just become a habit, because it's only recently that there's been an alternative. Just sayin'.

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

Although the fundamentalists in the bible belt - who are the best haters on the planet - might beg to disagree.

You might want to go ex-directory, hippi.

[russtafa]

We in Australia have nothing like these Bible bashing weirdo's lol

[hippifried]

A fetish is just an extended aspect of curiosity. Old habits die hard, & there's thousands of years of repitition of the only explanation anybody could come up with to explain our existence & mortality. Memes tend to take on a life of their own, & will try to survive. All social changes take time. Multiple generations. But all things change sooner or later.

[trish]

Christianity was the first proselytizing religion. The pagan religions died off because they were crowded out by the ever expanding "good news" of Christianity. Islam too is a proselytizing religion and it is currently displacing the less aggressive flora and fauna in the Southeast Asia. I don't think aggressively proselytizing religions like Christianity and Islam are likely to die out until some far far future date. More likely they will continue to schism and mutate into more and more bizarre sects (Mormons, Ahmadiyya etc.). Some of these sects will diverge so extravagantly form the main branches they will come to be regarded as new religions. If a new species is even more aggressive than the original it may displace the original. If every Christian on Earth eventually converted to some polyandrous, polytheistic, mutation of Mormonism called Quixillism, will you say that Christianity died or that it lives on through Quixillism?

I would love to see a day where all this silly, yet dangerous nonsense would just peter out and go away. One would think that reason and art would be sufficient to fascinate and soothe the human soul. But apparently not.

[Faldur]

We in Australia have nothing like these Bible bashing weirdo's lol

Really? One of the items on my bucket list is to attend a service at Hillsong, Sidney.

http://loveworldchristiannetwork.org/Newsroom/upload/NewsPictures/12022.jpg

[Stavros]

We in Australia have nothing like these Bible bashing weirdo's lol
What about Mel Gibson's father, didn't he develop some of his whacky alternatives to Catholicism in Sydney?

[russtafa]

Yeah but nobody pays attention to these nut jobs.Religion is thought to be very uncool in Aus

[tsnajwa]

Yeah but nobody pays attention to these nut jobs.Religion is thought to be very uncool in Aus

omg i honestly hope you are a troll at this point russtafa.. or you are a total nihilist. if you want to fight against something useful protest abbos in Aus..

[yodajazz]

...Those who defend Quran-burning on the basis of free speech miss the point. For a start, it's not free. It requires someone to go out, buy a book, buy petrol (not even cheap at the moment, never mind free), light it, film the whole thing and then distribute the proceedings to whatever little clique they call their friends, or more widely on YouTube or some other "social" medium. This is an overt, conscious action, motivated by malign intent. It is not the product of open, free-spirited discourse, but an aggressive, premeditated provocation.

Nor is it actually speech. It's not opening a dialogue or building an argument. Quite the opposite. It's a deliberate act of destruction; the destruction of a dialogue and argument constructed by others. If you don't like Islam, fine. Write a book about why. Don't burn one.

...

Good post. I felt that this part should be re-highlighted. And it supports my beliefs on the current situation. Islam and all religions are ideas. The way to influence ideas, is with other ideas. Burning a Koran does just the opposite, by shutting down dialogue.

In some recent months I became involved in an intense debate, about the meaning, of passages in the Koran. I was able to find passages about humane treatment of women, children and the elderly, and prohibition against killing. One passage even says there should be no compulsion in religion! There are many passages however, that talk about war and punishment, both by man and by God. But these can be reframed, by looking at the context, of the specific situation, and that of more universal principles. I see large parts of the Koran as being about the very specific things going on with the Prophet's life. What is specific to the situation, and what are more universal principles, have always been the subject of debate, and scholarship among Muslims. General ideas have changed over time, and schools of thought, grow or diminish over the centuries.

This is why I see understanding and dialogue as the answers to the issues of today. And it makes a difference, what non-Muslims believe about Islam, because I see all thought, as part of a general human conscienous. These thoughts influence our beliefs in how we live our everyday lives. An example would be the current understanding that the world is round.

Maybe sometime we could get to the discussion of actual ideas within religions, and their meaning for our lives. For example I believe that the stories in the Bible are more important as allegories, rather than historical accuracy.

So as far the original post, you can see, why I believe that Koran burning is definitely the wrong approach to human solutions.

[russtafa]

omg i honestly hope you are a troll at this point russtafa.. or you are a total nihilist. if you want to fight against something useful protest abbos in Aus..
What are you talking about.Are you for real:confused:

[Faldur]

Why do we have two threads talking about the same thing? Can we get back on manbearpig or something?

http://www.ptgustan.com/jul07/koranflush.jpg

[TJ347]

Good post. I felt that this part should be re-highlighted. And it supports my beliefs on the current situation. Islam and all religions are ideas. The way to influence ideas, is with other ideas. Burning a Koran does just the opposite, by shutting down dialogue.

What if one is not interested in dialogue? How many times have you heard someone make a statement and end it with "case closed" or "period, end of sentence"? These people are not interested in dialoguing... They've spoken on the issue, and are done with it. Dialogue is not necessary to legitimize speech. Accordingly, if I burn a Quran, I have "spoken" as to my thoughts on the Quran. In all likelihood, if I were interested in dialoguing about it I would have taken another route, and while the manner I choose may offend some, it is still my right as an American to choose that manner.

Clearly, this is something that is hard for some people from other countries to understand, but then we don't have the same governmental systems. Now then... What is the relevance of an American criticizing on the parliamentary system of government unless he has lived under such a system and thus has an actual point of reference? Everything he says would be hypothetical or theoretical. This is similarly the relevance of the 2nd Amendment being criticized by an Englishman who may never have been to the US, has never been subject to US law, and based on what he has said himself, doesn't have any right to free speech as it is defined in the US, speaking on any topic dealing with the US government or law. Feel free to continue to do so to your heart's desire, but recognize that only one of us has any actual right to do so under the laws of our respective governments.

I do agree though that Quran burning is not free speech, but again, I define this in the American manner as opposed to the reasons mentioned, which is to say that it's not free because Americans have died, are dying, and will die for us to continue to enjoy that right here. It would be nice, given that Americans also died to liberate people in other nations, if they could enjoy those same rights, but when people don't value freedom, what can you do?

[russtafa]

muslims want to dominate the cultures they settle in and overwhelm that culture

[trish]

muslims want to dominate the cultures they settle in and overwhelm that culture
So do Christians, and every other group who claims to know how others should live. The religious impulse is a manifestation of the will-to-power.

[traLika]

Religion may soon become extinct:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-12811197

:)

[russtafa]

So do Christians, and every other group who claims to know how others should live. The religious impulse is a manifestation of the will-to-power.
I don't think that impulse goes down to well in Australia where religion is not held in such deep respect.The pub is a religion over here

[ts adorer]

all religions are based on the fear of the many and the cleverness of the few...Stendhal.

[Faldur]

"I fear one day I will meet God, He'll sneeze and I won't know what to say." Ronnie Shakes

[tsnajwa]

What are you talking about.Are you for real:confused:

because you act like everybody whos muslim wants to move to every neighbourhood and declare jihad on suburbs of bumfuck austrailia.. i doubt you even know somebody who is middle eastern or even muslim for this matter.. your hysteria is i hope a troll..

and about the abbos.. since you live in austrailia and statisticly speaking abbos commit more crimes and murders in Aus than muslims and people from the middle eastn combined in Aus.. so if you want to make diference do something about that..
xx

[russtafa]

My sister in law is married to a lebanese muslim and i have alot of respect for him but he has been in jail twice.abo's don't committ murder .australia is one of the best country's in the world . Please at least do a bit of research at on utube or something before speaking of australia

[tsnajwa]

My sister in law is married to a lebanese muslim and i have alot of respect for him but he has been in jail twice.abo's don't committ murder .australia is one of the best country's in the world . Please at least do a bit of research at on utube or something before speaking of australia

http://youse0k.wordpress.com/2010/03/19/more-abbo-moonshines-and-jigs/

"while Aboriginals make up less than 3% of the population, they commit 20% of the violent crime in Western Australia"
LOOL are you serious?! I have friends who live in Austrailia and tell me they have tried to start their cars in morning only to have it not work because abbos steal the gas from their car tanks.. and how many times i have heard from friends about abbos knifing people on buses in Aus.. So please learn more about your country! this is why i think you are trolling..

And everybody who is middle eastern knows lbnan is worst country in middle east first of all lbnese are NOOT arab. i repeat lbnese are NOT arab.. and they have so many crimes there because they are not real muslims they are very westernise and do drugs and fill with prostitutes..

[Dino Velvet]

And everybody who is middle eastern knows lbnan is worst country in middle east first of all lbnese are NOOT arab. i repeat lbnese are NOT arab.. and they have so many crimes there because they are not real muslims they are very westernise and do drugs and fill with prostitutes..

I like the Lebanese whether they're Muslim or Christian. The ones I've been around have been warm and friendly. Maybe I like them because they like dope and whores like me.

Some of the Persians that I know out here party like there's no tomorrow. They are all kinds of different religions. I would guess most are Jews with a few Christians mixed in. I'm sure I've shared my whiskey with a Muslim or two as well. I knew these 2 overly friendly Persian guys. Great guys but they would stand on the tips of your shoes and yell like you were across the room. They always offered to take me to Asian Massage Parlors and pay my way as well as their's. They loved to smoke weed too. Those 2 were characters.

I'm not a good Catholic mysellf. Just ask my priest. What was his name?

[russtafa]

http://youse0k.wordpress.com/2010/03/19/more-abbo-moonshines-and-jigs/

"while Aboriginals make up less than 3% of the population, they commit 20% of the violent crime in Western Australia"
LOOL are you serious?! I have friends who live in Austrailia and tell me they have tried to start their cars in morning only to have it not work because abbos steal the gas from their car tanks.. and how many times i have heard from friends about abbos knifing people on buses in Aus.. So please learn more about your country! this is why i think you are trolling..

And everybody who is middle eastern knows lbnan is worst country in middle east first of all lbnese are NOOT arab. i repeat lbnese are NOT arab.. and they have so many crimes there because they are not real muslims they are very westernise and do drugs and fill with prostitutes..Abos are hopeless but they are not what i would consider dangerous and i worked in night clubs for years.Lebs have a very bad reputation over here for violence and rape and drug dealing but that's our government's fault for not been tough enough on crime and handing out wimpy sentences.

[TJ347]

Abos are hopeless but they are not what i would consider dangerous and i worked in night clubs for years.Lebs have a very bad reputation over here for violence and rape and drug dealing but that's our government's fault for not been tough enough on crime and handing out wimpy sentences.

What percentage of the overall violent crimes would a group have to commit for you to consider them "dangerous"? That said though, it's like criminal statistics used here in the US when discussing black people... Often carefully tailored to say what people pushing a certain agenda need them to say. Or not say.

"Abos are hopeless"... Were they always, or was it only after they were pushed to the outer fringes of Australian society by laws designed just for that purpose? Same with Native Americans here in the US, only the plight of Aborigines hasn't improved notably in decades under what is essentially an apartheid system. I'm surprised other western nations haven't imposed sanctions, though as the condition of Aborgines isn't reported here at all, I suppose I shouldn't be. It's the shame of Australia, as is its treatment of other groups, as mentioned previously. The greatest country in the world, so long as you're not a native, of Asian descent, Muslim or at all religious...

[russtafa]

Asians do very well in Australia.Aboriginals have access to free university,free housing,only 3 payments on a car and a indigenous pension free medical treatment .Wow i wish the government would give me such rough treatment.Muslims have their own schools and Mosque's .Jewish people own a lot of business's and their own school's.People have it so rough here .The kkk must run Australia lol

[Stavros]

And everybody who is middle eastern knows lbnan is worst country in middle east first of all lbnese are NOOT arab. i repeat lbnese are NOT arab.. and they have so many crimes there because they are not real muslims they are very westernise and do drugs and fill with prostitutes..

The myth that Lebanese are not Arabs is propagated by those who claim they are descended from the Phoenicians of old, a theory that has not stood up to scrutiny for so long I am surprised anyone would refer to it. Lebanon is claimed by Syria as part of what would have been the Kingdom of Syria succeeding Ottoman rule in 1920-21. As most people know, under the 1916 'Sykes-Picot' Agreement, Britain and France divided up the Arab provinces of the Empire (excluding the Hejaz) into their own spheres of influence and then got the League of Nations to recognise their 'Mandate' over these territories. The French, for administrative purposes, divided Syria into mini-states: the State of Lebanon was one of them, and after the collapse of Vichy rule the Lebanese formed their own independent state with a confessional democracy which allocated power proportionately among Christians, Muslims/Sunna, Muslims/Shi'a and the Druze. With its Christian majority Lebanon became the banking centre of the Middle East until the internal contradictions plus Palestinian politics imploded in 1975; Lebanon was also the ideal summer refuge from the blasting heat of the Gulf and other parts of the Middle East, as its mountain retreats were within easy reach, cheap and set in some of the most beautiful landscape in the region.

Lebanon's liberal attitude to sex has always meant that in some parts of the city, anything goes, but that is also true of Damascus and Cairo, as long as your anything doesn't go on in public view.

In short, before the Civil War Lebanon was one of the most popular and desirable places to live in the region -for both Arabs and non-Arabs; yes it was badly damaged by the civil war and the oppressive nature of Syrian influence there, but it could have some of the gas fields that run north from Egypt, and tourism still has the capacity to generate revenue; and its cuisine is heavenly.

As for crime, tsNajwa -its everywhere: the city in Saudi Arabia with the highest crime rate is, yes you guessed it, Mecca.

[smilingbutt]

where is the "just another religion for the unevolved apes" option?

[tsnajwa]

Abos are hopeless but they are not what i would consider dangerous and i worked in night clubs for years.Lebs have a very bad reputation over here for violence and rape and drug dealing but that's our government's fault for not been tough enough on crime and handing out wimpy sentences.
I will quote this
"ABORIGINES HAVE Highest Crime Rate in the World

The Aborigines boast one of the highest crime rates of any racial group in the world, reflected in their imprisonment rate, which pro-rata is the highest anywhere. According to the Australian Institute of Criminology, the Aborigines, who make up only two percent of the country's population, account for 30 per cent of the inmates of the country's prison cells - a rate which is higher than American Blacks or New Zealand Maoris, two other groups identified by the Institute as having high imprisonment rates.
"
LOL hopeless and you don't consider them dangerous? please get real and just admit that you are racist why you hate middle eastern people.. i am from middle east and i have never drink alcohol, never been to jail, never even got police ticket..


And everybody who is middle eastern knows lbnan is worst country in middle east first of all lbnese are NOOT arab. i repeat lbnese are NOT arab.. and they have so many crimes there because they are not real muslims they are very westernise and do drugs and fill with prostitutes..

The myth that Lebanese are not Arabs is propagated by those who claim they are descended from the Phoenicians of old, a theory that has not stood up to scrutiny for so long I am surprised anyone would refer to it. Lebanon is claimed by Syria as part of what would have been the Kingdom of Syria succeeding Ottoman rule in 1920-21. As most people know, under the 1916 'Sykes-Picot' Agreement, Britain and France divided up the Arab provinces of the Empire (excluding the Hejaz) into their own spheres of influence and then got the League of Nations to recognise their 'Mandate' over these territories. The French, for administrative purposes, divided Syria into mini-states: the State of Lebanon was one of them, and after the collapse of Vichy rule the Lebanese formed their own independent state with a confessional democracy which allocated power proportionately among Christians, Muslims/Sunna, Muslims/Shi'a and the Druze. With its Christian majority Lebanon became the banking centre of the Middle East until the internal contradictions plus Palestinian politics imploded in 1975; Lebanon was also the ideal summer refuge from the blasting heat of the Gulf and other parts of the Middle East, as its mountain retreats were within easy reach, cheap and set in some of the most beautiful landscape in the region.

Lebanon's liberal attitude to sex has always meant that in some parts of the city, anything goes, but that is also true of Damascus and Cairo, as long as your anything doesn't go on in public view.

In short, before the Civil War Lebanon was one of the most popular and desirable places to live in the region -for both Arabs and non-Arabs; yes it was badly damaged by the civil war and the oppressive nature of Syrian influence there, but it could have some of the gas fields that run north from Egypt, and tourism still has the capacity to generate revenue; and its cuisine is heavenly.

As for crime, tsNajwa -its everywhere: the city in Saudi Arabia with the highest crime rate is, yes you guessed it, Mecca.

it is not a "myth" ask any lbnese also and they will not say they are arab, and thjey do not even speak a real arabic... they use french words and bleach their hair, wear contacts and say they are european lol.. There may be some percent of lbnese who are mixed with arab yes.. but for the most part they are decendant of phoenicians and greek but this is very off point..

[TJ347]

I'd bet a DNA test of most Lebanese would disprove that Phoenician stuff real quick... It's that Tiger Woods make-believe all over again.

[trish]

National Geographic together with IBM sponsor an ongoing suite of genetic studies (The Genographic Project) which found that the Lebonese, Maltese and Phoenicians share a number of otherwise unique genetic traits; e.g. an m89 chromosome Y type in males.

[Faldur]

Lebonese = Man, Maletes = Bear, Phoenicians = Pig.... think about it..

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Z2pvpfssa5w/TDHyLPKVRYI/AAAAAAAAMZo/z0QMOVDGlJA/s1600/al_gore.jpg

Sorry Trish, it was in jest.. I couldn't help myself

[trish]

I see the anti-science buffoon has been trolling again.

[Stavros]

it is not a "myth" ask any lbnese also and they will not say they are arab, and thjey do not even speak a real arabic... they use french words and bleach their hair, wear contacts and say they are european lol.. There may be some percent of lbnese who are mixed with arab yes.. but for the most part they are decendant of phoenicians and greek but this is very off point..

Unfortunately Najwa, in a thread on Muslims it is of the point; there has been some effort exerted in recent years by extremists -Salafi, Takfiri call them what you will, where the right of abode in the Middle East has been linked to the perception that you can only belong if you are Muslim and Arab. It is in part a response to the view some Israelis have that their state should be an exclusively 'Jewish' state even though they can't legally define a Jew to everyone's satisfaction and will probably be unwilling to give up their domestic servants and farm labourers from Asia.

The Lebanese speak French for the most obvious reasons, a long-established trade link to France -whose 'claim' on Lebanon and Syria was made before 1920 by the silk merchants of Lyon; and the experience of the French 'mandate'. Sophisticated Lebanese liked to think they were more oriented to Europe and the Mediterranean world than to the Arab world, but the research done by Kamal Salibi and others has tended to confirm that Lebanon, like most other states in the region was populated from its core base in the Yemen -the same is also possibly true of the Jews; there were long-established Jewish communities in the Yemen and what we now call Saudi Arabia when Muhammad received his first revelations in the 7th century.

French-speaking Lebanese should be seen in the same context as French-speaking Russians at the court of Nicolas II -its a case of snobbery, as simple as that. There are some Lebanese who are not Arabs, the Armenians, for example, but they remain a minority as they always have been.

The idea that the MIiddle East should be reserved for Muslims is a pernicious one that allows extremists to attack Arab Christians, be it in Egypt or Iraq; the Christians of Lebanon may not be targeted in the same way, but over the next ten to twenty years the Shi'a will be the dominant community, if they are not already.
This debate it is not helped by people cliaming the Lebanese are not (for the most part) Arabs and to suggest that this is confirmed by bleached hair or contact lenses, although I assume this was not a serious comment anyway.

[trish]

The idea that the MIiddle East should be reserved for Muslims is a pernicious one that allows extremists to attack Arab Christians, be it in Egypt or Iraq; the Christians of Lebanon may not be targeted in the same way, but over the next ten to twenty years the Shi'a will be the dominant community, if they are not already.
This debate it is not helped by people cliaming the Lebanese are not (for the most part) Arabs... Agreed. It would seem that it is rarely ever good policy to emphasize historical, cultural or ethnic differences when the political climate is as unstable as it seems to be in Northern Africa and the Middle East.

[Stavros]

Unfortunately, Trish the region has form on this topic: the presence of Jews and Christians in the vicinity of Mecca was profoundly important for Muhammad when he was developing his ideas about another monotheist religion, but unlike most other Middle Eastern countries you will not find a synagogue or a church in that country. The Eastern Mediterranean coast in the first half of the 20thc was a vibrant region populated by Arabs, Jews, Greeks, French, English, Russians and son on, attracted by the easy life in a mildy decadent climate but above all by the ability to make money -the same region today is either mostly Jewish or mostly Arab, give or take the minority nationalities who do dirty jobs in Israel, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon. This creeping monoculturalism is not enough for bin Laden and the Jihadis but has by now drained the region of its diversity and, if anything, intensified political conflict. It has always struck me how multi-culturalism, so derided by conservatives in the UK, Germany, France and elsewhere, has been fundamental to the success of the USA -not necessarily in its politics, but in its society and societies -there is for me a sense of adventure in New York knowing how many different people live there, with their own beliefs, their own cuisine -much as I like the Middle East, there is only so much rice and chicken that I can eat...

[tsnajwa]

it is not a "myth" ask any lbnese also and they will not say they are arab, and thjey do not even speak a real arabic... they use french words and bleach their hair, wear contacts and say they are european lol.. There may be some percent of lbnese who are mixed with arab yes.. but for the most part they are decendant of phoenicians and greek but this is very off point..

Unfortunately Najwa, in a thread on Muslims it is of the point; there has been some effort exerted in recent years by extremists -Salafi, Takfiri call them what you will, where the right of abode in the Middle East has been linked to the perception that you can only belong if you are Muslim and Arab. It is in part a response to the view some Israelis have that their state should be an exclusively 'Jewish' state even though they can't legally define a Jew to everyone's satisfaction and will probably be unwilling to give up their domestic servants and farm labourers from Asia.

The Lebanese speak French for the most obvious reasons, a long-established trade link to France -whose 'claim' on Lebanon and Syria was made before 1920 by the silk merchants of Lyon; and the experience of the French 'mandate'. Sophisticated Lebanese liked to think they were more oriented to Europe and the Mediterranean world than to the Arab world, but the research done by Kamal Salibi and others has tended to confirm that Lebanon, like most other states in the region was populated from its core base in the Yemen -the same is also possibly true of the Jews; there were long-established Jewish communities in the Yemen and what we now call Saudi Arabia when Muhammad received his first revelations in the 7th century.

French-speaking Lebanese should be seen in the same context as French-speaking Russians at the court of Nicolas II -its a case of snobbery, as simple as that. There are some Lebanese who are not Arabs, the Armenians, for example, but they remain a minority as they always have been.

The idea that the MIiddle East should be reserved for Muslims is a pernicious one that allows extremists to attack Arab Christians, be it in Egypt or Iraq; the Christians of Lebanon may not be targeted in the same way, but over the next ten to twenty years the Shi'a will be the dominant community, if they are not already.
This debate it is not helped by people cliaming the Lebanese are not (for the most part) Arabs and to suggest that this is confirmed by bleached hair or contact lenses, although I assume this was not a serious comment anyway.

hah! shia is always been a minority and always will be for obvious reasons that they are not true muslims... the exact is same with arab christians and arab jews they are minority in overall population and in most countries..
and i am sorry to tell you but minority will always be opressed by majority just look at transsexuals, we are minority.
i am saying a serious comment because a fact is lebanese people as whole are completely different than real gulf arabs, lebanese people are very mixed because of their history as trade ports.. the diference between lebanese and arabs is like comparing french people to greeks.. but this conversation is beginning to feel like debate on stormfront and i am sooooooo not in mood for that right now.buuut i dont understand how you can tell me about arabs and muslims and think you understand when you are neither?! it is like you telling me how it is to be a transsexual.. you may think you know from reading but you never live it yourself so you can not know.

Buuuut i willl leave you with this picture of street sign in lbnan

http://oi52.tinypic.com/j133bo.jpg

[hippifried]

hah! shia is always been a minority and always will be for obvious reasons that they are not true muslims...

Yeah yeah yeah... Everybody else is always some kind of blasphemous idolator.

If memory serves, wasn't the great schism in Islam within a generation of the death of the Prophet? The Christian schism took centuries. But anyway: I'm not Muslim, but from what I've observed, Shia seems to be the liberal wing of Islam. The real fundamentalist nutjobs, like the idiots who crash planes into buildings, or the Taliban, etc, are Sunni. Isn't the Shia denomination growing fastest?

[tsnajwa]

Yeah yeah yeah... Everybody else is always some kind of blasphemous idolator.

If memory serves, wasn't the great schism in Islam within a generation of the death of the Prophet? The Christian schism took centuries. But anyway: I'm not Muslim, but from what I've observed, Shia seems to be the liberal wing of Islam. The real fundamentalist nutjobs, like the idiots who crash planes into buildings, or the Taliban, etc, are Sunni. Isn't the Shia denomination growing fastest?

shia is not 'liberal' unless you consider persians and iran to be liberal because majority of iran is shia.. and no fundamentalist highjackers are not sunni they are salafis or wahhabis.. if i will explain it to you and compare they are like hasidic jews of islam and are not a big population of total of all muslims..

[russtafa]

shia is not 'liberal' unless you consider persians and iran to be liberal because majority of iran is shia.. and no fundamentalist highjackers are not sunni they are salafis or wahhabis.. if i will explain it to you and compare they are like hasidic jews of islam and are not a big population of total of all muslims..Well you learn something every day.But don't these salafis and wahhabis control the sunni religion?

[robertlouis]

Unfortunately, Trish the region has form on this topic: the presence of Jews and Christians in the vicinity of Mecca was profoundly important for Muhammad when he was developing his ideas about another monotheist religion, but unlike most other Middle Eastern countries you will not find a synagogue or a church in that country. The Eastern Mediterranean coast in the first half of the 20thc was a vibrant region populated by Arabs, Jews, Greeks, French, English, Russians and son on, attracted by the easy life in a mildy decadent climate but above all by the ability to make money -the same region today is either mostly Jewish or mostly Arab, give or take the minority nationalities who do dirty jobs in Israel, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon. This creeping monoculturalism is not enough for bin Laden and the Jihadis but has by now drained the region of its diversity and, if anything, intensified political conflict. It has always struck me how multi-culturalism, so derided by conservatives in the UK, Germany, France and elsewhere, has been fundamental to the success of the USA -not necessarily in its politics, but in its society and societies -there is for me a sense of adventure in New York knowing how many different people live there, with their own beliefs, their own cuisine -much as I like the Middle East, there is only so much rice and chicken that I can eat...

:iagree::iagree::iagree::Bowdown::Bowdown::Bowdown :

That is a brilliant post, Stavros. Nothing to add, not necessary.

[hippifried]

and no fundamentalist highjackers are not sunni they are salafis or wahhabis..

Oh come on... That's like saying "they're not Catholics, they're Jesuits" or "They're not Protestants, they're Baptists". Every organized religion has its share of crazies, hypocrites, frauds, & assorted philosophical twisters of the dogma & tenets. They all have names for their particular set of beliefs within the belief system. I understand that knowlege of such details helps in analyzing the insane actions of certain individuals, but it doesn't affect my statement. In my observations, Shia appears to be the liberal wing of Islam. & yes, that includes Iran. Iraq too. I don't have or want intimate knowlege of the Q'uran or those who follow it. I'm atheist & have no interest in converting. It was just an observation from the outside. The Sunnis seem to be much m9ore conservative in their beliefs.

[robertlouis]

Oh come on... That's like saying "they're not Catholics, they're Jesuits" or "They're not Protestants, they're Baptists". Every organized religion has its share of crazies, hypocrites, frauds, & assorted philosophical twisters of the dogma & tenets. They all have names for their particular set of beliefs within the belief system. I understand that knowlege of such details helps in analyzing the insane actions of certain individuals, but it doesn't affect my statement. In my observations, Shia appears to be the liberal wing of Islam. & yes, that includes Iran. Iraq too. I don't have or want intimate knowlege of the Q'uran or those who follow it. I'm atheist & have no interest in converting. It was just an observation from the outside. The Sunnis seem to be much m9ore conservative in their beliefs.

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

Well said. And in "Christian" African states, the situation for LGBT is every bit as bad as it is in islamic countries. Here in the UK, most of my muslim friends are either shia or sufi, the latter being a tiny minority but imho the most liberal strand of all. And for what it's worth, we also have jewish friends in common.

While I am now pretty much atheist, I grew up in a liberal christian tradition, which I recognise has as much in common with deep-dyed southern baptists as it does with islamic fundamentalism. No religion is truly monolithic.

[tsnajwa]

Oh come on... That's like saying "they're not Catholics, they're Jesuits" or "They're not Protestants, they're Baptists". Every organized religion has its share of crazies, hypocrites, frauds, & assorted philosophical twisters of the dogma & tenets. They all have names for their particular set of beliefs within the belief system. I understand that knowlege of such details helps in analyzing the insane actions of certain individuals, but it doesn't affect my statement. In my observations, Shia appears to be the liberal wing of Islam. & yes, that includes Iran. Iraq too. I don't have or want intimate knowlege of the Q'uran or those who follow it. I'm atheist & have no interest in converting. It was just an observation from the outside. The Sunnis seem to be much m9ore conservative in their beliefs.

you are wrong in so many sentences i do not even know where to begin.. first of all iran and iraq are like comparing brazil to argentina. iran is persians, and they speak farsi and they are shias 90% iirc. iraq has majority shia, but there is still 40% sunni iirc, majority of iraqis are arabs and speak ARABIC, and baghdad and iraq has been known for hundreds of years to be liberal and cultural city.. just look at iraqi music videos with girls wearing low cut tops and short shorts and bikinis.. i never see that in iran videos or tv..

and yes denominations are denominations for a reason. maybe to you and in christianity there is little difference but in Islam they are VERY different.. just look at how shias visit grave of husayn and worship prophets and will have pictures of them, while wahhabis beleive they are idol worshippers and are not real muslims etc.. look how wahhabis destroy house of prophet muhammad in saudi arabia a few years ago because they wanted to discourage people from traveling there to visit and 'idol worship'

my point i am making is i know many sunnis who drink alcohol, eat bacon and go to clubs like it is end of the world... but will pray five times a day and be at masjid always.. and i know shia's who are very conservative. so do not generalise like you say..
xxo

[Stavros]

tsNajwa: there are signs in most airports, and most ports that direct nationals or EU citizens to one gate, and other passport holders to another.

The demographics of Lebanon indicate that the Shi'a are either already a numerical majority or will be in the next 10-20 years, its hard to say because the govt hasn't conducted a census there for political reasons since 1932; the Shi'a constitute 60% of the population of Iraq which with my simple arithmetic makes them the majority there; and for you to suggest they are not Muslims tells us more about you than it does about the reality of life for people who have been slaughtered in Bahrain, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Pakistan, Afghanistan and so on, for no other reason than a bigoted and sectarian perspective that discredits the people who believe it. If the Shi'a appear 'liberal' it is because they have been associated with 'oppression' and its 'liberation' -in fact the Shi'a in Lebanon and Iraq are more conservative in social values than the Sunna, but there will always be local variations.

My own connections to the Middle East are real so I don't need to rely merely on 'reading' for my views; but anyone who reads and thinks and has something to say is welcome to engage in this discussion.

[hippifried]

Najwa,
I understand the difference between Arabs & everybody north or east of Iraq. It's irrelevant to my statement. Or a discussion of Islam in general for that matter. Regardless of what language they speak to Grandma, if they're Muslim, they're still reading the Quran & trying to follow the teachings of the Prophet. Right? Regardless of the denomination, they're still reading the Quran & trying to follow the teachings of the Prophet. Right?



baghdad and iraq has been known for hundreds of years to be liberal and cultural city..

Oh, a lot longer than that. Try thousands. It was the crossroad & center of trade between east & west. It's the birthplace of civilization as we know it. Abraham was born & raised there, making it the birthplace of all 3 great monotheist religions. That area's always been cosmopolitan. But that's not my point.



and yes denominations are denominations for a reason.

Yeah. It's political &/or philosophical schisms in the power structure of the organization. This is the same worldwide since prehistory. Some sects are more fanatical than others, but every denomination of every religion, or any philosophy actually, has it's share of fanatics. It's the same with political wings & parties, or theoretical social & economic philosophies. We were on the brink of human extermination because of an argument over who should control the money. Competitors all lie about their competition. In monotheistic religious schisms, the lie is usually that "those others" are idolators or blasphemers. (That doesn't work with pagans because they don't have a problem with idolatry.) But so what? This still doesn't address my point, but it's getting closer.

All I'm saying is that whenever westerners point to particular conservative or reactionary Muslim intolerance, they're pointing at Sunni or Sunni offshoots. The prime examples of such intolerance are the Taliban in Afghanistan & parts of Pakistan, & Saudi Arabia. Where do the Shia fit into the stereotype? They don't. The problems non-Muslims have with places that are predominantly Shia, like Iran or Iraq, is strictly about power & control of the oil trade.



my point i am making is i know many sunnis who drink alcohol, eat bacon and go to clubs like it is end of the world... but will pray five times a day and be at masjid always.. and i know shia's who are very conservative. so do not generalise like you say..

Oh I know them too. Don't we all? There's also reform Jews, jack Mormons, Easter Catholics, & I don't know what they call "devout" Protestants who don't practice any of the teachings of Jesus or who are out & out criminals. We all have more in common than we do differences. Our differences are what make us interesting. Everybody knows & understands the universal code of human interaction, AKA the principle of reciprocity or the Golden Rule. It's the basis of all morality & ethics, regardless of how many words are used to describe it. The constant worries about anybody who's different are interesting & even funny at times, but it's all paranoia. We're just talking degrees of worry intensity. The higher the degree, the more likely we are to shunt the universal moral code aside. Common sense usually wins out in the end. Sometimes it just takes a millennium or 2, or 3 or...