Are we transpeople just eccentric, not giving a flying fuck about approval?

[BrendaQG]

I have been in a reflective mood today holidays do that to me. It occurs to me that transpeople are just highly intelligent, androgynous , and eccentric...all consistent with having higher than average IQ.

Thinking about the whole state of being trans has me thinking are we all just eccentric in a way? Psychological studies show that the average IQ of a transsexual is 116.... higher than 84.1 % of the population.

That got me to thinking. Perhaps our condition has allot to do with being too smart to be constrained by gender norms. Society says boys should like X girls should like Y but never really explains why. Truly smart people... smarter than 84% of people...would want to know that.

As a matter of fact according to this book "High IQ Kids (http://books.google.com/books?id=rTRvHdsbxeIC&lpg=PA304&ots=Q2vcegDdUD&dq=gifted%20IQ%20gender%20norms&pg=PA304#v=onepage&q=gender&f=false)" children who are gifted are often androgynous and disregard gender norms. I have seen studies which measured the finger ratios of various scientist and found that they are androgynous.

So what do you guys and girls think (especially the girls). If non trans high IQ people are noticeably androgynous, and most transpeople are of higher IQ, then are we just unconsciously eccentric. While we do not "choose" or act out anything we are simply being ourselves in a way that is utterly consistent with a high IQ. (Or put away as has been said about eccentric people in general we choose not to conform for the sake of conformity.) This is simply a variation on the theme of high IQ people being androgynous.

[phobun]

Thinking about the whole state of being trans has me thinking are we all just eccentric in a way? Psychological studies show that the average IQ of a transsexual is 116.... higher than 84.1 % of the population.


Get real. Those studies are skewed because they were conducted on MTFs who transitioned late in life after successful careers, etc. Of course a higher IQ will be reflected. Go do IQ tests on a sample of mostly "working" girls and I think certain TS community members will no longer be able to use IQ test results an an opportunity to congratulate themselves for being above average.

[BrendaQG]

No I actually based that number on a study which looked at transwomen from across the age spectrum to get that number. "Transsexual subtypes Clinical and theoretical significance". By Yolonda Smith et al published in the journal of Psychiatry Research. http://akikos-planet.cocolog-nifty.com/blog/files/psychiatry_research__transsexual_subtypes_clinical _and_theoretical_significance.pdf

It looked at male to female, female to male, different sexual orientations and ages. The IQ of the younger group so called in that study "homosexual" group was 111.2 +/- 16.9. That means that the majority of those people had an IQ of over 100 (higher than half the population) A sizable minority of this younger group would be considered gifted.

As for working girls. I was an active working girl for a spell. Then I got into a decent graduate school now I'm a Cosmologist...no fooling. People from Chicago know me and know that. I am an extreme example. Moreover I was not that old when I decided to really declare myself a transsexual at 26, and I had always been quite feminine acting no matter what.

I have never met a working girl who was clean and sober who was actually stupid. Truly stupid or slow people would never survive a year or even a month as a working girl.

[phobun]

No I actually based that number on a study which looked at transwomen from across the age spectrum to get that number. "Transsexual subtypes Clinical and theoretical significance". By Yolonda Smith et al published in the journal of Psychiatry Research. http://akikos-planet.cocolog-nifty.com/blog/files/psychiatry_research__transsexual_subtypes_clinical _and_theoretical_significance.pdf

It looked at male to female, female to male, different sexual orientations and ages. The IQ of the younger group so called in that study "homosexual" group was 111.2 +/- 16.9. That means that the majority of those people had an IQ of over 100 (higher than half the population) A sizable minority of this younger group would be considered gifted.


111.2 is less than 1 standard deviation above the mean. Mostly likely they are average.


As for working girls. I was an active working girl for a spell. Then I got into a decent graduate school now I'm a Cosmologist...no fooling. People from Chicago know me and know that. I am an extreme example.

I have never met a working girl who was clean and sober who was actually stupid. Truly stupid or slow people would never survive a year or even a month as a working girl.


An anecdote about yourself proves nothing.

Transwomen are as varied as any other group. There are smarties and there are dumbies. Most are average people living ordinary lives.

[JoePitt]

It's a little known fact that Steven Hawking refuses to have somebody lift him out of bed without his favorite black bra and crotchless panties on. I guess Brenda is right.

[speedstick112]

I think there's a legitimate connection between intelligence and gender variance. The reason is unclear, because it's not like a great deal of intellect is required to figure out one's gender identity. I was in the "gifted" class in high school, where everyone had to score at least 98th percentile to get in. There were 3 of us trans kids in a class of 30.

Also, the shrink that I used to see was nice enough to show us his statistics on this matter. They did IQ tests on all the kids they saw, and the ones that were there for gender issues had significantly higher scores (can't seen to find the sheet, so generalizing). Then again, CAMH takes down tons of info on their patients so they claim any relationship they want, say, transsexuality and personality disorders.

There's a bit about that here. (http://books.google.ca/books?id=atfTHGjjVeIC&pg=PA167&lpg=PA167&dq=gender+identity+intelligence&source=bl&ots=D8kJRhoK_a&sig=uSvHwDmbE-EJ0s-Bwa1FdxFPWD0&hl=en&ei=JzvxTIOtNYrEnAeunpWtCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8&ved=0CDoQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=gender%20identity%20intelligence&f=false)

[fred41]

Okay, uhmmmm...yeah!, I......uhhhhhhhhhhhhh............................. ....



...........no!!




..maybe just more likely to have delusions of grandeur...lol

[runround04]

It's a little known fact that Steven Hawking refuses to have somebody lift him out of bed without his favorite black bra and crotchless panties on. I guess Brenda is right.

refuses? umm... Whats he gonna do about it? hahahahaha



To the Op topic, I would think TS's are as varied as any other group. Sayin that TS's are smarter than men/women is akin to sayin men are smarter than women. There are idiots and genius's in any group IMO

[BrendaQG]

I think there's a legitimate connection between intelligence and gender variance. The reason is unclear, because it's not like a great deal of intellect is required to figure out one's gender identity. I was in the "gifted" class in high school, where everyone had to score at least 98th percentile to get in. There were 3 of us trans kids in a class of 30.


While I agree it does not take a great deal of intelligence for someone to figure out that the gender norms presented by society aren't for them. However I think Intelligence, above average intelligence, has something to do with how one responds to that.

Some people respond by questioning the norms or disregarding them.
Other people respond by clinging tight to the norms.



Also, the shrink that I used to see was nice enough to show us his statistics on this matter. They did IQ tests on all the kids they saw, and the ones that were there for gender issues had significantly higher scores (can't seen to find the sheet, so generalizing). Then again, CAMH takes down tons of info on their patients so they claim any relationship they want, say, transsexuality and personality disorders.

Yeah if your a psychologist PhD you can just about make crap up. So why not me? Well I guess I would need to measure the IQ of something like 1000 transwomen and compare it to the IQ of the general population. I'm just not that kind of scientist.

[BellaBellucci]

IQ is not a constant. A test can really only prove how efficient a brain's process is at any given time. I've been tested more than once with scores ranging from 115 (when I had just run away and was emotionally overwhelmed) to 138 (when I had much less to worry about).

I also think that while smarter people are generally more likely to either reject or experiment with the concept of gender, that doesn't necessarily make transpeople smarter as a whole. Some people transition without even thinking about it. It's more of a 'feeling' and it's just as valid as someone analyzing it to death because many times, it's just something in the soul that makes a person trans.

~BB~

[BrendaQG]

I agree with what you said about IQ as tested not being a constant.



Some people transition without even thinking about it. It's more of a 'feeling' and it's just as valid as someone analyzing it to death because many times, it's just something in the soul that makes a person trans.

Then there are people who if they think their soul tells them they are trans they will go to a faith healer or think they are possed by a demon.

I am not saying that we all thought about it. It's more like saying why not... be a male and do this "feminine" thing. Why not be a female and do this "masculine"thing. You know. Take that kind of reasoning to it's logical conclusion and if someone's "soul" tells them they are trans, they'll just be trans.

[BellaBellucci]

Then there are people who if they think their soul tells them they are trans they will go to a faith healer or think they are possed by a demon.

I am not saying that we all thought about it. It's more like saying why not... be a male and do this "feminine" thing. Why not be a female and do this "masculine"thing. You know. Take that kind of reasoning to it's logical conclusion and if someone's "soul" tells them they are trans, they'll just be trans.

If you're looking for an argument, you won't get one here. :geek::Bowdown:

~BB~

[Jericho]

If you're looking for an argument, you won't get one here. :geek::Bowdown:

~BB~


I knew it!
They said i was paranoid, but...

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_R5WS6_kmmTI/SwU5BK_LcgI/AAAAAAAAgVU/rC30ZIXMAB4/s1600/invasion+of+the+body+snatchers.jpg

[BellaBellucci]

I knew it!
They said i was paranoid, but...

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_R5WS6_kmmTI/SwU5BK_LcgI/AAAAAAAAgVU/rC30ZIXMAB4/s1600/invasion+of+the+body+snatchers.jpg

Too easy. 0 points. :geek: :lol:

~BB~

[Jericho]

Too easy. 0 points. :geek: :lol:

~BB~

What can i say, it's late over here! :shrug
:lol:

[fred41]

Transsexuals may be intellectually superior...but I'm happy to be in the chaser group on the evolutionary scale. At times we're practically retarded...but we like it that way....lol.

...so there.

[peggygee]

Brenda, I didn't get a chance to lok at the studies and the books that you
cited, will do so as they look interesting.

But what I will say is equally important as a high IQ, is what the person
does with it.

An individual may have a high IQ, but if they don't fully utilize it then they
have wasted a gift.

YouTube - A Bronx Tale - wasted talent (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpP39q31N3o)

Oh, and you may want to clarify to folks what a "cosmologist" is, or else
they will infer "cosmetologist", and want to get their hair and nails did.

A cosmologist is someone who studies the physical universe. Cosmologists
are knowledgeable in several scientific fields. They usually have an
extensive familiarity with physics, because physics knowledge is critical for
grasping many concepts in cosmology.

:geek:

[phobun]

Oh, and you may want to clarify to folks what a "cosmologist" is, or else
they will infer "cosmetologist", and want to get their hair and nails did.

A cosmologist is someone who studies the physical universe. Cosmologists
are knowledgeable in several scientific fields. They usually have an
extensive familiarity with physics, because physics knowledge is critical for
grasping many concepts in cosmology.

:geek:


I thought it was a reader of Cosmopolitan.

[traLika]

High IQs? Nah! There are some clever tgirls around, but there are some stupid ones too. Same as both the other sexes...

Edit:

Men have always been saying they're smarter than women and vice versa. Now tgirls are saying they're smarter than men and women...

(Just kidding... ;) )

But... I do think a lot of guys and GGs go through their lives on 'autopilot', without thinking much about who or what they are, whereas tgs might give that more thought and be more 'developed' in that particular way...

[BrendaQG]

High IQs? Nah! There are some clever tgirls around, but there are some stupid ones too. Same as both the other sexes...

Edit:

Men have always been saying they're smarter than women and vice versa. Now tgirls are saying they're smarter than men and women...

(Just kidding... ;) )

But... I do think a lot of guys and GGs go through their lives on 'autopilot', without thinking much about who or what they are, whereas tgs might give that more thought and be more 'developed' in that particular way...

That's certainly possible... then one can take the position that thinking hard makes the brain more fit, and can raise IQ a bit.

The trouble is that the difference is statistically significant. The transsexual population has a mean IQ that is one standard deviation away from the mean IQ of the general population. 16 points of IQ is a huge difference. (Consider a person with an IQ of 84 ... that's just a bit more than Forest Gump.)

@peggygee I thought surely that if us stupid trannies could see that cosmologist and cosmetologist are different than anyone could. lol.

[phobun]

The trouble is that the difference is statistically significant. The transsexual population has a mean IQ that is one standard deviation away from the mean IQ of the general population. 16 points of IQ is a huge difference.


What is your source for this? Provide the reference.

[wavefn]

That's certainly possible... then one can take the position that thinking hard makes the brain more fit, and can raise IQ a bit.

The trouble is that the difference is statistically significant. The transsexual population has a mean IQ that is one standard deviation away from the mean IQ of the general population. 16 points of IQ is a huge difference. (Consider a person with an IQ of 84 ... that's just a bit more than Forest Gump.)

The study you cited does not have the capacity to compare the IQ means of the general population vs. transsexuals. (It's not a poor study, that was just not its intent.) They administered IQ tests to patients presenting to a single clinic in the Netherlands. There is obvious selection bias (wikipedia it) and the study should not be interpreted as stating that all transsexuals have a mean IQ of 111. This is like administering an IQ test at a bar frequented by MIT students and stating that the mean IQ of all bar patrons everywhere is 145.

What they did find: among people presenting to that single clinic for gender identity issues, homosexual patients had a lower mean IQ than heterosexual ones. (I spent <2 minutes reading it and have no idea how they defined sexual orientation.)

To another poster:
Two means with an overlapping standard deviation does not mean a study failed to reach statistical significance, though the SD is related to the standard error of the mean (SEM). The SEM is used for this purpose. (95% CI = Mean +/- 1.96*SEM.)

[BrendaQG]

First of all you need to combine the IQ scores of both types of transsexual that that study was looking for to get the true value for the whole population.

Second other studies have looked at this issue All of which place the mean value of the IQ of the whole transsexual population (young, old, MTF and FTM) around 116 Such as http://www.springerlink.com/content/p138570141484134/
And this one.
http://eric.ed.gov/PDFS/ED390004.pdf

I can cite others. I have yet to find one that say... measured a bunch of transsexuals with a mean IQ less than average which would blow my theory out of the water.

[wavefn]

First of all you need to combine the IQ scores of both types of transsexual that that study was looking for to get the true value for the whole population.

Second other studies have looked at this issue All of which place the mean value of the IQ of the whole transsexual population (young, old, MTF and FTM) around 116 Such as http://www.springerlink.com/content/p138570141484134/
And this one.
http://eric.ed.gov/PDFS/ED390004.pdf

I can cite others. I have yet to find one that say... measured a bunch of transsexuals with a mean IQ less than average which would blow my theory out of the water.
The first link you provided is also not of sufficient methodological quality to determine the actual mean IQ of all transsexuals. They say NOTHING of their recruitment methods or their subject demographics. Further, they find a mean IQ of 107 +/- 13.1. (The authors are 95% confident that their subjects' mean IQ is between 94 and 120.) Their 95% confidence interval includes 100, thus they must "accept the null hypothesis" and conclude that there does not exist a difference in the mean IQ of their subjects and the general population.

Perhaps transsexuals DO have a higher average IQ, but this study is (low-quality) evidence against that (e.g., that their average IQ is the same as the population average).

Cannot read the second link on my laptop, so cannot evaluate. Not intending to bust chops, but misinterpretation of statistics is obviously a pet peeve of mine.

[phobun]

And this one.
http://eric.ed.gov/PDFS/ED390004.pdf


This is one student's thesis and the results do not support your claims.


I can cite others. I have yet to find one that say... measured a bunch of transsexuals with a mean IQ less than average which would blow my theory out of the water.


You aren't helping your contentions with any of the studies cited so far.

[nbtch101]

They say NOTHING of their recruitment methods or their subject demographics.

Don't know if this piece of information helps much, but anyways... The study is Dutch, I read through it a couple of months ago actually. If I'm not misinformed transsexuals go through the public health care system in the Netherlands. Ergo, they most likely have specialized and centralized "gender identity clinics" that nearly ALL transsexuals pass through at some point in their transitions, much like Sweden, Canada (I think), and the US in the 60-70's(?).

[SuperKirstenTS]

What's the value of IQ these days?

xXx Kirsten

P.S. not a joke

[GrimFusion]

What's the value of IQ these days?

xXx Kirsten

P.S. not a joke

What kind of question is that? Are you trying to ask what value an intelligence quota has in our society anymore, or are you asking for some kind of population average IQ?

Honestly, IQ doesn't matter that much at all. I've taken two official IQ tests and three unofficial ones and my means score is 153. I'm not all that intelligent. I know a lot about a few things which most people don't find interesting. IQ tests quantify problem solving ability and measure the amount of information a person can store and recall quickly. Einstein was considered to have an IQ score of 160. That doesn't mean you're the next Einstein if you score that high.

In contrast, I've known people who have scored 100-ish and pwn all over me in debates. I've seen people score damn close to me and be some of the most ghetto, backward, closed-minded mother fuckers I've ever talked to. Intelligence is really about motivation and application. If you can't motivate yourself to learn or apply your intelligence, IQ just doesn't matter.

As far as an average is concerned, I believe America's average IQ is 98.
That sounds a little low until you consider that there are only 16 other countries in the world with a higher average IQ. If you want to break that down, Asian-Americans take the win at an average of 110, Caucasian-Americans come in at 103, Latino-Americans score an average of 91, and African-Americans bring in the bottom score of 89.

That really doesn't mean jack shit, though.
GO READ A BOOK, MOTHER FUCKERS. lol.

[GrimFusion]

It's human instinct for "like" people to group together and search for more similarities, but I think this is a bit of a stretch. Bella has a point; IQ certainly does vary from decade to decade. It's just my opinion, but I believe periods of stress can have a dramatic effect on lowering IQ; likewise, comfort and stability in life and relations both financially and socially can restore it. I might just be pulling that out of my ass, though.

For something to be true, there needs to be some kind of cause and effect. A reason why the transgendered need a higher IQ to successfully transition; or perhaps a reason why a small percentage of people with high IQ's aren't comfortable with their birth gender while a vastly smaller group of people with low IQ's feel the same.

It's not intelligent to put up with daily or weekly shots, mood swings from hell, bouts of depression and introversion, harassment, surgery, and losing friends and family just to feel more comfortable. I'm not saying you've got to be pretty dumb, I'm saying none of that has anything to do with intelligence or the lack there-of. Totally unrelated.

If there's no requirement for a high IQ, and there's nothing during a transition that vastly effects IQ, then it must stand that there are very few transgendered people with low IQ's.

Hey, welcome to HungAngels.
Been around here long?

[SuperKirstenTS]

(English isn't my first language, but I did mean 'the value of IQ' as in 'what does it mean anyway?)

Hi there, thanks for your answer. I consider myself as quite intelligent (even though all tests try to prove the opposite) and I'm a TG/TS. I think most TG's are smart, because they (=we) are to intelligent to let something like 'social norms/standards' stand between them and their dreams.

xXx Kirsten

----------------------

Honestly, IQ doesn't matter that much at all. I've taken two official IQ tests and three unofficial ones and my means score is 153. I'm not all that intelligent. I know a lot about a few things which most people don't find interesting. IQ tests quantify problem solving ability and measure the amount of information a person can store and recall quickly. Einstein was considered to have an IQ score of 160. That doesn't mean you're the next Einstein if you score that high.

GO READ A BOOK, MOTHER FUCKERS. lol.[/QUOTE]

[BigDF]

IQ is not a constant. A test can really only prove how efficient a brain's process is at any given time. I've been tested more than once with scores ranging from 115 (when I had just run away and was emotionally overwhelmed) to 138 (when I had much less to worry about).

I also think that while smarter people are generally more likely to either reject or experiment with the concept of gender, that doesn't necessarily make transpeople smarter as a whole. Some people transition without even thinking about it. It's more of a 'feeling' and it's just as valid as someone analyzing it to death because many times, it's just something in the soul that makes a person trans.

~BB~ I agree with you Bella. Those tests do little more than measure someone's potential at a given time. What we define as intelligent or smart in the real world cannot be measured with most tests. I've know some people with really high IQ's who couldn't find their ass with both hands and a map (from time to time, myself included). And I've known pure geniuses at least in actions who scored very low on such tests.

As far as the original question goes, no, I don't think it's about eccentricity or not giving a flying fuck about approval. Most of the TS I've seen and admittedly most are in show business of some sort or the other are looking for approval. I suppose some shallow folks find some eccentricity in a person living the life they wish, but I think it's courageous to do that. As far as I'm concerned everyone should be able to live as they wish so long as it doesn't involve harming someone else.

I like people for the most part and I celebrate those who go at life 100 percent and try to live as themselves, even in face of adversity. And I thank everyone who has ever posted a photo of themselves living as a transsexual. I think the most powerful sexual organ we have is our brain and my brain is happy when I see someone who appears truly happy to be alive.:dancing:

[dunkiex]

I have seen the gambit. This one tgirl that I see on a regular basis is one of the most intelligent and talented people I have ever known. She is a great deal smarter than a lot of the professional, college-educated people I have know. Then, there are those that are in the range of normal intelligence, but not a lot of personality.

[audifan]

I think androgeny and other self-aware eccentricities, such as choosing not to care about approval, are all conscious choices which require applied intelligence.

I'm not trans, so I don't really know, but I don't think there's any conscious choice to be truly trans - you don't choose it, fate chooses you. So I don't see any reason for a correlation to exist between being trans and high intelligence. I think intelligence is likely to be randomly distributed within the trans population just like the overall population.

I think internet forums attract the more intelligent and eloquent members of the trans community to come along and speak out, where others who may feel they lack the quick wits might feel intimidated. So the trans population in places like HA may have self-selecting bias towards high intelligence. Just my 2c.