Unions: Good or Bad??

[JerseyMike]

Recently in the Garden State Governor Christie has asked the NJEA (New Jersey Education Association) to have its members forgo this years salary increases and have teachers put 1.5% of their salary towards their health benefits to close $11 billion deficit. So are unions good or bad in your opinion? Have fun.

[Jericho]

Both good and bad.
Are you the one doing the shitting or the one cleaning the kharzi?

[Faldur]

Started as a true cause for the worker, grew out of control and completely lost its way. Nothing more than a PAC today. Usefulness is gone.. and yes, member IUPAT since 1978.

[bte]

I think it has it advantages and disadvantages. Unions communicate with the business in order to provide better working conditions for the workers, ie: break times, break areas, pay, and etc. It can be beneficial for anyone to join an union if they feel they will be represented properly.

Although it does have its disadvantages, which could lead to unions asking for too much and the company having to cut back in order to accomodate the unions. As I said good and bad when it comes to unions.

I only been in one union, and thats the extent of my knowledge of unions.

[buckjohnson]

I was in a union once that went on strike the very first day I went to work. I just like to remind people that the 40 hour week, time off, safety, and a lot of other work place improvement were driven by unions.

Also the people who ran into the burining towers were union members.

[bte]

I was in a union once that went on strike the very first day I went to work. I just like to remind people that the 40 hour week, time off, safety, and a lot of other work place improvement were driven by unions.

Also the people who ran into the burining towers were union members.

Good point, although just like to make a note on your last point. The fact that they were union members doesn't hold any special status (guess thats the word I am looking for). They were doing their job and doing what was right. Regardless if they were union or not. I would think a non-union member would go into the burning towers and save people.

[hippifried]

Unions have been & still are a vital componant to elevating the economic status of wage earners. They have their flaws like any self interest organizations.

I just wish they'd expand to developing nations instead of embracing nationalist isolationist policies. I understand the conflict of interest between lofty organizing goals & protection of dues paying members, but getting workers in the developing world organized is the best way to combat the sweatshop mentality of globalization.

[JerseyMike]

Probably should have asked if teachers unions are good or bad? But personally unions were needed for safety issues but most of those issues are no longer there, except in the case of mine workers. Unions however seem to be messing up things more than they are doing good examples: United States Postal Service, GM, Chrysler.

[trish]

Safety is one major issue of interest to workers and their unions. But so are: work conditions, health, hours, advancement, wages, pension ... anything an individual might consider to ask for in a contract so too a union will ask for. There are good contracts and bad contracts. It's not the union's fault that GM made some silly contracts. History shows the that corporations will exploit workers to inhuman ends to gain a dollar on the bottom line. Unions are the defense.

[evilernie]

I appreciate the concept of having a union. Like communism, socialism, democracy, capitalism and totalitarianism, it starts as a well-meaning concept, but ends up being used by its leaders for their own advantage.

As with everything else, power corrupts and lemmings blindly follow. That's the failure of every system (government, church, corporations and union).

If I have to one item in specific that I don't like about the NJ teachers union is
the high regard for seniority.

[trish]

One (not the only) measure of loyal a worker might be to a company is to look at the length of time he's been working for the company. Unfortunately, many non-union shops reward long term loyalty with giving older workers the boot. If school administrators were doing their job correctly poor workers wouldn't get seniority, they'd be kicked out right away. If a teacher or worker has seniority but is no longer doing an acceptable job, most contracts have procedures in place that allow the administration to document their charges against the employee and fire them, provided the employee is given a chance to grieve the accusations. The trouble is that many public school administrators are unfamiliar with the contract or too lazy to document the complaints against a teacher and investigate their legitimacy...then when the administration loses the grievance it's the union's fault!

[NYBURBS]

Unions did start in response to certain abuses; however, they have their own issues also. Mainly the mafia like tactics some of them use, the union bosses who never leave office, and the fact that you're forced to pay dues to them in a lot of jobs even if you don't join.

I think people should be free to unionize and collectively bargain. I also think that people should be just as free to decline membership and negotiate their own contracts. It's a basic concept of individual freedom.

[hippifried]

I appreciate the concept of having a union. Like communism, socialism, democracy, capitalism and totalitarianism, it starts as a well-meaning concept, but ends up being used by its leaders for their own advantage.

As with everything else, power corrupts and lemmings blindly follow. That's the failure of every system (government, church, corporations and union).

If I have to one item in specific that I don't like about the NJ teachers union is
the high regard for seniority.

The purpose of any union is to represent its membership on the job &sometimes beyond. Conversely, the social purpose of the labor movement as a whole is to make itself obsolete. We tend to take things for granted if we weren't there at their inseption. Somebody had to fight for all the things we automatically expect from an employer nowadays.

I don't have that big a problem with seniority. Tenure is a bit more radical, but it predates teacher's being unionized. It's a long standing tradition at the university level & was just picked up on as government employees & other career jobs started to organize. Seniority isn't that big a part of industrial contracts & is pretty much non-existent in the trades.

[hippifried]

Burbs,

That sounds good in theory, but it's not that simple & it doesn't work. The contract is between the union & the employer & covers the entire bargaining unit. That includes every job that's described in the contract. The union is bound by law to represent every worker in the unit in bargaining the contract & all grievances pertaining to his/her job, regardless of membership. The contract covers everything. Wages, benefits, pensions, grievance proceedures, working conditions, hiring & firing proceedures, etc... That's why non-members pay dues. It's a pittance, & that contract is the only reason for the pay & benefits that come with that job. There's no rule anywhere that says compells someone to join. In "right to work States", there are no "union shops", & the workers are all still covered by the contract & represented by the union whether they pay or not. Hope you're not making a claim for fairness here.

[NYBURBS]

Hippi,

I was in a Union, so I know that what you just said is correct. What I'm saying is that you're forced to bargain via this collective method, even if you'd rather represent yourself. If the union is good at what it does then people will want to join it anyways.

However, it should still come down to an individual choice on whether or not to participate. The job I'm in now is non-union and I negotiate my own salary and rates (I'm an hourly employee). Granted I don't have a contract, but I still worked out the conditions (hours, rates, etc) that I needed in order to accept the job.

[hippifried]

I was union too, for a long time. You're free to negotiate your own deal now. If you think you're so key that you should be getting more than anybody else, you're free to take it up with the employer. Good luck with that, especially in an industrial setting where everybody's in the same unit. What you can't do is underbid the unit compensation package. That's built into the contract. That package is minimum wage for the bargaining unit. Why would anybody do that anyway, unless they had some reason to undermine the union? The reality is that individuals have no clout, & the only people who are going to get a better deal are those moving into management where they wouldn't be covered under the agreement. Whining about the dues is just that. It's a complaint about not being able to freeload.

[NYBURBS]

I was union too, for a long time. You're free to negotiate your own deal now. If you think you're so key that you should be getting more than anybody else, you're free to take it up with the employer. Good luck with that, especially in an industrial setting where everybody's in the same unit. What you can't do is underbid the unit compensation package. That's built into the contract. That package is minimum wage for the bargaining unit. Why would anybody do that anyway, unless they had some reason to undermine the union? The reality is that individuals have no clout, & the only people who are going to get a better deal are those moving into management where they wouldn't be covered under the agreement. Whining about the dues is just that. It's a complaint about not being able to freeload.


Actually, a lot of union contracts specify that the union is the sole recognized bargaining unit, and forbids the employer from negotiating separately with someone other than the union. I can even understand the reasoning behind that, but I have to disagree with your statement that individuals have no clout. We all have a certain degree of worth associated with our abilities (and our track record). There are do nothings in a union that will automatically get the same raise you do, and therefore that can act as a disincentive to produce or perform at an above average rate. However, if you were able to negotiate your for yourself, then your individual performance would be a far more significant factor.

As I said before, there are valid reasons why a group of people would want to negotiate collectively. There are also valid reasons why you might want to go it alone. I'm just advocating for the choice, and in certain areas of employment the choice is not there.

[JerseyMike]

One (not the only) measure of loyal a worker might be to a company is to look at the length of time he's been working for the company. Unfortunately, many non-union shops reward long term loyalty with giving older workers the boot. If school administrators were doing their job correctly poor workers wouldn't get seniority, they'd be kicked out right away. If a teacher or worker has seniority but is no longer doing an acceptable job, most contracts have procedures in place that allow the administration to document their charges against the employee and fire them, provided the employee is given a chance to grieve the accusations. The trouble is that many public school administrators are unfamiliar with the contract or too lazy to document the complaints against a teacher and investigate their legitimacy...then when the administration loses the grievance it's the union's fault!

Teacher unions are far different from the normal unions that are out there. It's not that poor workers get seniority, administrations give them the boot, but its the seniority workers who have tenure that are the bad employees but because they have tenure it is easier to keep bad, old, out of touch teachers than it is to fire them. The union don't budge when it comes to getting rid of older teachers. It is rare for a teacher to lose their job based on PERFORMANCE. A teacher can only really lose their job if there is an sex scandal and sometimes that does not even remove the teacher because the teacher union will still protect the teacher till the end. The reason why I wanted to ask was what is going on here in New Jersey. The NJEA is at war with the governor because he would like to base more pay and tenure on performance but unions do now like this because it destroys the idea of seniority. Also a pay freeze for teachers and having them pay 1.5% of their pay for their insurance is unheard of for the NJEA. THE NJEA uses children and threats of children's future to hurt the children by more than helping and this go for all teacher unions. Charter schools which usually aren't under the control of unions do vastly superior to children in regular public education. Unionis will fight against charter schools or the expansion of it, good example is in Washington, D.C. when President Obama bowed down to the unions and revoked funding for more charter schools for D.C. Also does keeping older teachers in schools helping the children? Most just go there to pick up a pay check and survive through the day due to their spirit being broken. Just annoyed by the way things and needed to vent basically because that is why all political writers write, they know nothing is going to happen but they just write to vent anger and frustration making their writings totally pointless in the end.

[hippifried]

Burb,

Pfffft! They all say that. The individual makes more money by changing status. Key personnel make more. Added responsibility comes along with that too. It's called upward mobility, & unions don't frown on it. It's in their best interest to have their members in key positions & all through management. Lower level management is usually part of the unit. There's no reason to give somebody more money for doing the exact same thing as the guy next to him.

Different jobs pay differently in any setting. The only union I know of that has piece work bonuses built into their contracts are the UFW. Maybe the hard rock mining division of the Steelworkers. Yet bonuses still get paid for various things. Case in point: I worked several tunnels. There was no kind of bonus worked into the contract, yet the miners on the heading crew who drove the tunnel made boatloads of cash. How? Through an incentive deal above & beyond the contract. Daily, after the second set (6'), they went on time & a half. After the 3rd, they went to doubletime. After 4, they went to doubletime & a half. I saw one crew knocking out 5 & 6 sets a day in a 9 hour shift. 8 really, because the tunnel segment of the contract gives you an extra hour every day to cover shift break & poratal pay. You get paid 9 for 8. There's incentives for slipform crews who work the high stacks too, & all sorts of other odd projects. You need skilled people to do all this stuff. The trades have a bit of a different mindset though. There's still a huge difference between the AFL & the CIO.

Collective bargaining is really the only reason so many people are able to get the pay & benefits they get, regardless whether they or their employer are organized. Nobody pays more out of the kindness of their heart, & every employee's expendable from the janitor to the CEO. Anybody can work their way up the ladder. That's the American dream, & unions don't get in the way of that.

[BeardedOne]

Unions = good. Union politics = bad.

It's all relative.

I've had experience with the ATU, AFSCME, Teamsters, APWU, IBEW, UTU, ad infinitumU.

[Cuchulain]

'United We Bargain; Divided We Beg'

[NYBURBS]

'United We Bargain; Divided We Beg'

Ah Comrade! I should have known a union topic would drag you back out from the shadows :soapbox How have you been?

[russtafa]

power to the people.i hate greedy bosses

[SugaSweet]

I was in a large government (Federal) union for 26 years.What it did was provide me and my co-workers a decent pay level with decent benefits (health,retirement,and so on).We were not a closed shop so many nonmmembers received the same benefits as members.Many union rep's mysteriously would find themselves promoted to a managerial level by making closed doors with supervisors.From that standpoint I can say that if we were a real union like the Teamsters some people would have been 'hurt' so to speak.I stayed in despite that and other shortcomings of the APWU.Since I was able to take an early retirement I no longer haver contact with my former union rep's or members.Many unions are nothing but businesses themselves and the days of the unions are numbered in a global marketplace.So are unions good or bad?For me being able to sit at home and relax at age 51,I say they were good for me,but you could google 'postal violence' then give me your opinion on what was our working enviroment.

[onmyknees]

having been both a shop steward, ( and a well respected one) and now a mid level manager who has his choice to hire union, and non union contractors , I have seen this issue uniquely from both sides. Yes...from time to time there are unfair company policies, or an individual is singled out for unfair persecution or scorn by one or more managers.

Yes it's also true unions offer a higher wage, and better bennys but their products and services reflect that fact, and in this economy....it's difficult for them to be competitive. One thing of many I dislike unions for is this prevailing wage bullshit in many northern states. I understand the intent, but why as a tax payer or manager should I have to pay a non union contractor 1/3rd more than they are currently working for just because the unions have been successful in buying politicians ?

Here's my other beef with the union boys...a big project with an ambitious time line is dropped in your lap. You begin the management and scheduling of the project. If you contract with a union form....invariably the first thing they want to know is not how can they work to accomplish the tasks,or what can they do to help, but what they can't do without overtime, and how much more it's going to cost me. I don't like to generalize, but given the choice, I'll hire a reputable non union contractor every time.

I think the days of big, slow, demanding, feather bedding unions is slowing coming to an end.

[trish]

Some people say a man is made outta mud
A poor man's made outta muscle and blood
Muscle and blood and skin and bones
A mind that's a-weak and a back that's strong

You load sixteen tons, what do you get
Another day older and deeper in debt
Saint Peter don't you call me 'cause I can't go
I owe my soul to the company store

I was born one mornin' when the sun didn't shine
I picked up my shovel and I walked to the mine
I loaded sixteen tons of number nine coal
And the straw boss said "Well, a-bless my soul"

You load sixteen tons, what do you get
Another day older and deeper in debt
Saint Peter don't you call me 'cause I can't go
I owe my soul to the company store

I was born one mornin', it was drizzlin' rain
Fightin' and trouble are my middle name
I was raised in the canebrake by an ol' mama lion
Cain't no-a high-toned woman make me walk the line

You load sixteen tons, what do you get
Another day older and deeper in debt
Saint Peter don't you call me 'cause I can't go
I owe my soul to the company store

If you see me comin', better step aside
A lotta men didn't, a lotta men died
One fist of iron, the other of steel
If the right one don't a-get you
Then the left one will

You load sixteen tons, what do you get
Another day older and deeper in debt
Saint Peter don't you call me 'cause I can't go
I owe my soul to the company store

[evilernie]

I dislike union. But we'll appreciate them if we really needed them. People are generally self-serving, and the corporations know that. Unions prevents abuse. However, these "protections" might in turn abuse the employer.

Remember that not everyone have marketable or special skills that allow them to bargain with management.

Therefore, even if I dislike unions, they are a necessary evil. At least, for now.

[SugaSweet]

Thanks for the Tennessee Ernie Ford Trish.

[Cuchulain]

One thing of many I dislike unions for is this prevailing wage bullshit in many northern states.


Well, let's see...how do I phrase this in a way that promotes rational discourse? How 'bout FUCK YOU? Prevailing wage is one of the best wage protections that both union and non-union construction workers have. The non-union guys love working on prevailing wage projects because it's the only time they make a decent living. It gives union workers a fair shot at a big job because the GC or the Project Manager can't bring a bunch of illegals or southern yahoos in and pay them shit wages. Prevailing rates help to keep jobs local, which is good for the local economy. Do we use our political muscle to maintain the prevailing wage? Damn straight we do. We use every tool we've got to keep our people working and we aren't about to apologize for it.

As for 'reputable non-union contractors', they are few and far between. The building trades guys are the best at what they do. We have the experience and the skill to get the job done safely and on time. When we bring a new kid in, we put him through an extensive apprenticeship so he learns his trade. We don't just stick a shovel or a trowel or a torch in his hand and say "git 'er done". If a project falls behind schedule, it's the fault of poor planning, not poor performance on the part of the workers. I've been in the building trades for more than 30 years. I've seen and done it all. The non-union guys, for the most part, couldn't carry our jelly buckets.

[Faldur]

Union member since 1977. Once were a good thing, nothing more than political action committee's today. Long forgotten about the worker.

[donre]

......Bad.

[joeym75ld]

Recently in the Garden State Governor Christie has asked the NJEA (New Jersey Education Association) to have its members forgo this years salary increases and have teachers put 1.5% of their salary towards their health benefits to close $11 billion deficit. So are unions good or bad in your opinion? Have fun.
Christie is the worst kind of hypocrite.
He singles out the teachers union because they supported Corzine and didn't contribute to Christie's campaign.
He targets teachers, who make on average about $60K per year, in a state where the cost of living is astronomical.
He turns around and pays his staff more than any other governor, with most making well over $100K. He supports tax breaks for the wealthiest citizens in the state (i.e., his fat-cat Republican buddies).

I don't even have a problem with him asking teachers to take a temporary pay freeze (although I do have a problem with him asking teachers to pay into benefits, if it is not in their contract). However, will the politicians take a pay cut? Will Christie donate his governor's salary back to the state, as I am pretty darn sure he could afford it. What about EVERY STATE EMPLOYEE MAKING OVER $100K - WILL THEY TAKE A PAY CUT?? Every single state, county, and municipal empoyee from the garbage men to the police officers to the firemen all the way up to the highest paid politicians, university presidents (and football coaches) should take a pay freeze, with anyone over $100K taking a pay cut. If that was his plan, then I could agree with a pay freeze for teachers.

[Virtualdistance]

So are unions good or bad in your opinion? Have fun.

Bad , too nerfed down to powerlessness ...
They only stage some protests where it can hurt the already borrowed decaying economy...