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Ben
11-27-2009, 03:46 AM
When soldiers are expendable

Dahr Jamail, author of The Will to Resist: Soldiers Who Refuse to Fight in Iraq and Afghanistan, shows how the military's push to deploy personnel, despite their physical or mental health, goes well beyond the case of Major Nidal Malik Hasan.

November 16, 2009

The military mental health care system is in a state of crisis

THE MILITARY operates through indoctrination. Soldiers are programmed to develop a mindset that resists any acknowledgment of injury and sickness, be it physical or psychological. As a consequence, tens of thousands of soldiers continue to serve, even being deployed to combat zones like Iraq and/or Afghanistan, despite persistent injuries. According to military records, over 43,000 troops classified as "nondeployable for medical reasons" have been deployed to Iraq and Afghanistan nevertheless.

The recent atrocity at Fort Hood is an example of this. Major Nidal Malik Hasan had worked as a counselor at Walter Reed, hearing countless stories of bloodshed, horror and death from dismembered veterans from the occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan.

While he had not yet served in Iraq or Afghanistan, the major was overloaded with secondary trauma, coupled with ongoing harassment about his being a Muslim. This, along with other factors, contributed towards Hasan falling into a desperation so deep he was willing to slaughter fellow soldiers, and is indicative of fissures running deep into the crumbling edifice upon which the U.S. military stands.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

THE CASE of Private Timothy Rich also demonstrates the disastrous implications of the apathetic attitude of the military toward its own. Not dissimilar from Major Hasan, who clearly would have benefited from treatment for the secondary trauma he was experiencing from his work with psychologically wounded veterans, one of the main factors that forced Private Rich to go absent without leave (AWOL) was the failure of the military to treat his mental issues.

Rich told Truthout, "In my unit, to go to sick call for mental health was looked down upon. Our acting First Sergeant believed that we shouldn't have mental issues because we were too 'high speed.' So I was afraid to go because I didn't want to be labeled as a weak soldier."

What followed was more harrowing, as he describes:

The other problems arose when I brought my girlfriend down to marry her. My unit believed her to be a problem starter, so I was ordered not to marry her, taken to a small finance company by an NCO, and forced to draw a loan in order to buy her a plane ticket to return home. They escorted her to the airport and through security to ensure that she left.

Once the NCO left, she turned around and hitchhiked back to Fort Bragg. Before the unit could discover us, we went to the courthouse and got married. We were then summoned by my commander, Captain Jones, to his office and reprimanded. He called me a dumb-ass soldier and a shit bag for marrying her, and told my wife that she was a fool to marry someone as stupid as me. Members of my unit started referring to me as Private Bitch instead of Private Rich.

The entire episode caused a lot of strain in our relationship. Unable to cope with all this, I bought two plane tickets and went AWOL with my wife.

Rich was later apprehended when a federal warrant was issued against him. After 11 days in a country jail, he was transported back to Fort Bragg in North Carolina. On August 17, 2008, he was wrongly assigned to Echo Platoon that was part of the 82nd Airborne, whereas his unit was part of the 18th Airborne.

Rich recollects, "I was confused when they assigned me to the 82nd. I was dismissed as a liar when I brought this up with my NCO, Sgt. Joseph Fulgence, and my commander, Capt. Thaxton. I ended up spending a year at Echo before being informed that I was never supposed to have been in the 82nd."

At Fort Bragg, he was permitted to seek mental health treatment and was diagnosed with schizophrenia, psychosis, insomnia and a mood disorder. This, however, did not stop his commander from harassing him.

His permanent profile from the doctor restricted him from being on duty before 0800 (8 a.m.) hours, but his commander, Sgt. Fulgence, dismissed the profile as merely a guideline and not a mandatory directive. The soldier was accused of using mental health as a pretext to avoid duty. So Rich was up every morning for first formation at 0545 (5:45 a.m.). It wasn't until he refused to take his medication because it made him groggy in the morning that his doctor called his commander and settled the matter. By then, Rich had already been forced to violate his profile for six months.

During this period, his mental health deteriorated rapidly. The combined effect of heavy medication and restrictions on his home visits resulted in his experiencing blackouts that led him to take destructive actions in the barracks. When he was discovered talking about killing the chain of command, he was put on a 24-hour suicide watch that seemed to have served little purpose, because on August 17, he was able to elude his guards and make his way to the roof of his barracks.

"I climbed onto the roof of the building and sat up there, thinking about my family and my situation, and decided to go ahead and end my suffering by taking a nose dive off the building," Rich explained to Truthout.

His body plummeted through the air, bounced off a tree, and he landed on his back with a cracked spine. The military gave him a back brace, psychotropic drugs and a renewed 24-hour suicide watch, measures as effective in alleviating his pain as his failed suicide attempt.

When Truthout contacted him just days after his failed suicide attempt, a fatigued Rich detailed his hellish year-long plight of awaiting a discharge that never came:

I want to leave here very bad. For four months, they have been telling me that I'll get out next week. It got to the point that the NCOs would tell me just to calm me down that I'd be going home the next day. They went as far as to call my wife and requesting her to lie that she was coming to get me the next day. I eventually stopped believing them. I didn't see an end to it, so I figured I'd try and end it myself.

The noncommissioned officers in his barracks thought it was hilarious that Rich had jumped, and he was offered money for an encore that could be videotaped.

At the time, he was in a "holdover" unit, comprised mostly of AWOL soldiers who had turned themselves in or had been arrested. Others in his unit had untreated mental health problems like him or were suffering from severe PTSD (post-traumatic stress disorder) from deployments in Iraq and or Afghanistan.

According to Rich, every soldier in his platoon was subjected to abusive treatment of some kind or the other: "It even got to the point when our First Sgt. Cisneros told us that if it were up to him, we all would all be taken out back and shot, and that we needed to pray to our gods because we were going to pay [for our actions]."

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

TIM'S WIFE Megan had to bear his never-ending ordeal in equal measure. She witnessed the military's callousness up close. She informed Truthout:

Since February of this year, Tim's unit had been telling him he would be out in two weeks. After two weeks, when he asked, they would repeat the same thing. At times, he would get excited and start packing his belongings, and I would try to figure out how to get him home to Ohio. He would call me crying in relief, because he thought we were going to be together again real soon.

The military forced me to lie to him, too. When he realized they did not mean to release him, he grew very destructive during his blackout spells. Eventually, he simply gave up on coming home.

Megan first realized there was a problem with the way the military was treating her husband when she noticed him doing and saying things that were out of character for him, like apologizing for not being a good husband and father, and being openly suicidal. He had also begun to self-medicate with alcohol, an increasing trend among soldiers not receiving adequate mental-health treatment from the military. She revealed to Truthout:

He had quit for the girls and me, but it seems like he could not handle the stress and needed an escape. This caused a huge problem between us, and we began to argue about it. He became severely depressed, pulled away from me, and started to do things he normally doesn't do, such as giving away his money and belongings, and telling the recipients that he wouldn't need those things in hell.

She sensed that her husband would be in trouble if he were to stand up for himself, so she began to advocate on his behalf. Her attempts to do so met with fresh abuse from his commanders. The chain of command banned her from the company barracks and had her escorted off post. The couple was commandeered into Sgt. Fulgence's office, where they were chastised. The sergeant referred to Megan as "a bad mother" and "a bitch." When Megan attempted to leave the office in protest, the sergeant ordered her to stay and listen to what he had to say.

This was followed by an encounter with the commander of the platoon, Commander Thaxton. The commander in this case ordered Tim to shut up, and threatened him with confinement. He demanded that Megan explain what kind of mother would bring her child to a new location without a place to live. She tried telling him that the AER loan was for her to come to Fort Bragg, since they had lost their house after Tim's arrest and loss of job. Although the paperwork for the loan clearly stated it was for her travel, food and lodging at Fort Bragg, the commander insisted it was for an apartment.

When Tim intervened to say that the $785 would not be sufficient to pay rent and bills, especially since he wasn't being paid his wages, and his wife couldn't work because of the baby, both Sgt Fulgence and Capt. Thaxton "had a nice laugh over that" and dismissed the duo, according to Tim, referring to them as "juvenile dumb-asses."

After Tim returned from being AWOL and was brought up on charges, he went through 706 (a psychology board) that declared him mentally incompetent at the time of his being AWOL. It took a painfully long amount of time for the charges to be dismissed without prejudice. The soldier believes that his superiors deliberately refused to do the requisite paperwork for his clearance and subsequent resumption of his pay. He told Truthout:

Every time I came on base, I got arrested, even though I was on active duty again. Then my wife and I got an AER loan for her to come down to Fort Bragg. When she got there and my pay continued to be withheld, the AER money ran out, and my wife and child had to sleep in the van we owned. When my unit found out, they called the Military Police and ordered me to give custody of my daughter to my father.

When Tim refused to do that, they punished him by confining him to the barracks and barring his wife from entering the base. To add insult, the chain of command took away his van keys and said that neither he nor Megan was allowed use it.

The nightmare ended when the military finally released Private Timothy Rich, and by default, Megan. He was discharged and "allowed" to enter the ranks of U.S. citizens searching for jobs and health care. Their traumatic journey to that starting point is what distinguishes them from their civilian counterparts.

Rich's advice to anyone thinking of joining the military today: "Don't join. Everything they advertise and tell you about how it's a family-friendly army is a lie."

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

SGT. HEATH Carter suffered a similar fate at the hands of an indifferent military command. Upon return from the invasion of Iraq, he discovered that his daughter Sierra was living in an unsafe environment in Arkansas under the care of his first wife, who had full custody of the child. Heath and his new wife, Teresa, started consulting attorneys in order to secure custody of Sierra, who also suffered from a life-threatening medical condition.

Precisely during this time, the military chose to keep changing Carter's duty station from Fort Polk, Louisiana, to Fort Huachuca, Arizona, then to Fort Stewart, Georgia. Not only did these constant transfers make it difficult for Carter to see his daughter, they also reduced his chances of gaining custody of Sierra. Convinced that this was a matter of life and death for his daughter, he requested compassionate reassignment to Fort Leavenworth, Missouri, about two hours from his first wife's home in Arkansas.

His appeals to the military command, the legal department, chaplain and even to his congressman failed, and the military insisted that he remain at Fort Stewart, Georgia. Having run out of all available avenues, in May 2007, he went AWOL from Fort Stewart and headed home to Arkansas, where he fought for and won custody of Sierra, and was able to literally save her life by obtaining needed medical care for her.

However, on January 25 of this year, Carter was arrested at his home by the military police, who flew him back to Fort Stewart, where he has been awaiting charges for the past eight months. Being a sergeant, he is in a regular unit and not in a holdover, but that does not help his cause. Initially, his commander told him it would take a month and a half for him to be sent home. Several months later, it was decided he would receive a court-martial.

Carter feels frustrated:

Now I have to wait for the court martial. It's taken this long for them to decide. If we had known it would take this long, my family could have moved down here. Every time I ask when I'll have a trial, they say it is only going to be another two weeks. I get the feeling they are lying. They have messed with my pay. They're trying to push me to do something wrong.

His ordeal has forced Carter to reflect on the wars. He admits that although his original reason for going AWOL was personal, and he had otherwise been proud of his missions, he sees things in Iraq differently today. "I don't think there is any reason for us to be there except for oil," he said.

Yet both Private Rich and Sgt. Carter were offered deployments to Afghanistan amid their struggles. It is soldiers like these that the military will use to fill the ranks of the next "surge" of troops into Afghanistan, which at the time of this writing, appears to be as many as 34,000 troops.

The stage is set for more tragic incidents like the recent massacre at Fort Hood.

First published at Truthout.org. Sarah Lazare contributed to this report.

hippifried
11-27-2009, 07:24 AM
Aren't soldiers always expendable?
Isn't that why they're called cannon fodder?

Armies are full of crazies to start with. They always have been. They go out of their way to recruit people who are willing to kill other human beings on command. A soldier's purpose is to engage & destroy the enemy.


The military mental health care system is in a state of crisisThis makes it sound as if there is one to start with. "Engage & destroy the enemy", remember? Not condusive to good mental health. PTSD was basically unheard of before the Gulf War. Before that, if you were shellshocked to the point of being totally disfunctional, they tossed you in the babble ward. If you could still function, they told you to pull yourself together & sent you back out. Nobody comes through combat unscathed, even if they never get shot at or never get past trining, & there aren't enough shrinks on the planet to deal with the mental scars when there's an actual shooting war going on.


THE MILITARY operates through indoctrination.Well DUH! "indoctrination" is a euphemism for brainwashing. If you weren't crazy going in, you probably are by the time you get out of basic training. We're indoctrinated from birth. We're always hearing about courage, glory, & how honorable it is to kill or die. It's crazy, but the military can't fix it. Why would they want to?

chefmike
11-27-2009, 05:09 PM
While he had not yet served in Iraq or Afghanistan, the major was overloaded with secondary trauma, coupled with ongoing harassment about his being a Muslim. This, along with other factors, contributed towards Hasan falling into a desperation so deep he was willing to slaughter fellow soldiers, and is indicative of fissures running deep into the crumbling edifice upon which the U.S. military stands.

Harassment? Says who? The cowardly murdering muslim piece of shit that the author is making excuses for?

There is a difference between PTSD and being a fanatical muslim and a traitor to the country that one has sworn to defend. Hasan was an American soldier who decided to murder his fellow soldiers rather than perform the duties required of him. Maybe the murdering mongrel should have thought of that before asking the US Army to pay for his education...

hippifried
11-27-2009, 06:52 PM
Well Mike, you & I agree on a lot of things, but not this. I'm not seeing the link here, regardless of all the anti-Muslim shrieking & the views of the Californian expatriot in Yemen. There was some other clown who shot up the workplace the next day (Fla I think), & it's become a trend in the US over the last decade or more. It's not just the workplace either. It's the highschool, the college campus, the daycare center, the welfare office, the homeowners association meeting, & the church service. There's an uptick in family annihilators & suicide by cop. Nobody's trying to make any kind of "terrorism" connection to any of them except for this one. Hasan just happens to be the first Muslim to go postal. If he was Catholic, would we be blaming the Pope?

paulgutierrez
11-27-2009, 07:24 PM
While he had not yet served in Iraq or Afghanistan, the major was overloaded with secondary trauma, coupled with ongoing harassment about his being a Muslim. This, along with other factors, contributed towards Hasan falling into a desperation so deep he was willing to slaughter fellow soldiers, and is indicative of fissures running deep into the crumbling edifice upon which the U.S. military stands.

Harassment? Says who? The cowardly murdering muslim piece of shit that the author is making excuses for?

There is a difference between PTSD and being a fanatical muslim and a traitor to the country that one has sworn to defend. Hasan was an American soldier who decided to murder his fellow soldiers rather than perform the duties required of him. Maybe the murdering mongrel should have thought of that before asking the US Army to pay for his education...
Agreed. I'm in the military and nobody gets picked on without reason. Racism? Please, we know the repercussions of that. I'm not saying racism doesn't happen but it is so rare that Hasan himself must have provoked it.

Hasan was a fanatical muslim who did weird anti-american presentation at the wrong times, he'd spew anti american rhetoric and would praise suicide bombers, and constantly got into heated arguments with his supposed comrades.

Taken from a New York Times article:

Mr. Danquah, a retired sergeant and a veteran of the Persian Gulf war, told him that the soldiers had no excuse since it was a volunteer Army and that they could always file as conscientious objectors.

“I got the impression he was trying to validate how he was dealing with it,” Mr. Danquah said.

In late October, Major Hasan told the imam in Killeen, Syed Ahmed Ali, that he was leaving Texas to live with his family in Virginia. “He said, ‘Pray for me,’ ” Mr. Ali said.

But he never left. The night before the shooting, he had dinner with Mr. Reasoner and said he felt that he should not go to Afghanistan.

“He felt he was supposed to quit,” Mr. Reasoner said. “In the Koran, it says you are not supposed to have alliances with Jews or Christians, and if you are killed in the military fighting against Muslims, you will go to hell.”

paulgutierrez
11-27-2009, 07:50 PM
Well Mike, you & I agree on a lot of things, but not this. I'm not seeing the link here, regardless of all the anti-Muslim shrieking & the views of the Californian expatriot in Yemen. There was some other clown who shot up the workplace the next day (Fla I think), & it's become a trend in the US over the last decade or more. It's not just the workplace either. It's the highschool, the college campus, the daycare center, the welfare office, the homeowners association meeting, & the church service. There's an uptick in family annihilators & suicide by cop. Nobody's trying to make any kind of "terrorism" connection to any of them except for this one. Hasan just happens to be the first Muslim to go postal. If he was Catholic, would we be blaming the Pope?

You're comparing random senseless shootings to the actions of a muslim radical who knew full well what he was doing. Even if he didn't have anyone telling him what to do a terror attack could still be pulled off independently. He yelled Allah Akbar before opening fire. He had associations to radical imams, was fiercely Anti-American, and supported suicide bombing and you're honestly saying that he's just "the first muslim to go postal"? You even got that wrong. Muslims have gone postal in America before and not accused of terrorism. Even the DC Sniper wasn't accused of terrorism.

But Hasan used an FN 5 7, which can shoot through kevlar. He obviously had a plan and didnt just snap. His support of suicide bombers should be a dead giveaway.

But if he's not a "terrorist" technically since most of his victims were military targets, including a pregnant woman plus a civilian, then Mike is at least correct in saying that he was a traitor. You must be blinded by ideology. What's to debate when the obvious is staring at you in the face.

But we're talking about a religion that produces terrorist activity every day here. Frankly these terrorists get all their ideas straight from their own holy book. Seriously who the fuck are you kidding trying to downplay this?

Rogers
11-27-2009, 08:02 PM
But we're talking about a religion that produces terrorist activity every day here. Frankly these terrorists get all their ideas straight from their own holy book. Seriously who the fuck are you kidding trying to downplay this?

The results of some powerful Christian and Jewish terrorists for ya:
http://www.iraqbodycount.org/

George Bush: 'God told me to end the tyranny in Iraq'
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/oct/07/iraq.usa

The Men From JINSA and CSP
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20020902/vest

chefmike
11-27-2009, 08:05 PM
Well Mike, you & I agree on a lot of things, but not this. I'm not seeing the link here, regardless of all the anti-Muslim shrieking & the views of the Californian expatriot in Yemen. There was some other clown who shot up the workplace the next day (Fla I think), & it's become a trend in the US over the last decade or more. It's not just the workplace either. It's the highschool, the college campus, the daycare center, the welfare office, the homeowners association meeting, & the church service. There's an uptick in family annihilators & suicide by cop. Nobody's trying to make any kind of "terrorism" connection to any of them except for this one. Hasan just happens to be the first Muslim to go postal. If he was Catholic, would we be blaming the Pope?

You're comparing random senseless shootings to the actions of a muslim radical who knew full well what he was doing. Even if he didn't have anyone telling him what to do a terror attack could still be pulled off independently. He yelled Allah Akbar before opening fire. He had associations to radical imams, was fiercely Anti-American, and supported suicide bombing and you're honestly saying that he's just "the first muslim to go postal"? You even got that wrong. Muslims have gone postal in America before and not accused of terrorism. Even the DC Sniper wasn't accused of terrorism.

But Hasan used an FN 5 7, which can shoot through kevlar. He obviously had a plan and didnt just snap. His support of suicide bombers should be a dead giveaway.

But if he's not a "terrorist" technically since most of his victims were military targets, including a pregnant woman plus a civilian, then Mike is at least correct in saying that he was a traitor. You must be blinded by ideology. What's to debate when the obvious is staring at you in the face.

But we're talking about a religion that produces terrorist activity every day here. Frankly these terrorists get all their ideas straight from their own holy book. Seriously who the fuck are you kidding trying to downplay this?

Very well said IMO and I agree, obviously. Who sez we can't all get along? While for the most part agreeing with hippi on many other matters, paulg and I are of like minds on this.

chefmike
11-27-2009, 08:12 PM
But we're talking about a religion that produces terrorist activity every day here. Frankly these terrorists get all their ideas straight from their own holy book. Seriously who the fuck are you kidding trying to downplay this?

The results of some powerful Christian and Jewish terrorists for ya:
http://www.iraqbodycount.org/

George Bush: 'God told me to end the tyranny in Iraq'
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/oct/07/iraq.usa

The Men From JINSA and CSP
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20020902/vest

No argument there, but it doesn't change my feelings that islam is one of the world's most volatile(not to mention downright distasteful) religions, and I got no use for any of 'em....or the war in Iraq for that matter...

hippifried
11-28-2009, 12:44 AM
Well Mike, you & I agree on a lot of things, but not this. I'm not seeing the link here, regardless of all the anti-Muslim shrieking & the views of the Californian expatriot in Yemen. There was some other clown who shot up the workplace the next day (Fla I think), & it's become a trend in the US over the last decade or more. It's not just the workplace either. It's the highschool, the college campus, the daycare center, the welfare office, the homeowners association meeting, & the church service. There's an uptick in family annihilators & suicide by cop. Nobody's trying to make any kind of "terrorism" connection to any of them except for this one. Hasan just happens to be the first Muslim to go postal. If he was Catholic, would we be blaming the Pope?

You're comparing random senseless shootings to the actions of a muslim radical who knew full well what he was doing. Even if he didn't have anyone telling him what to do a terror attack could still be pulled off independently. He yelled Allah Akbar before opening fire. He had associations to radical imams, was fiercely Anti-American, and supported suicide bombing and you're honestly saying that he's just "the first muslim to go postal"? You even got that wrong. Muslims have gone postal in America before and not accused of terrorism. Even the DC Sniper wasn't accused of terrorism.

But Hasan used an FN 5 7, which can shoot through kevlar. He obviously had a plan and didnt just snap. His support of suicide bombers should be a dead giveaway.

But if he's not a "terrorist" technically since most of his victims were military targets, including a pregnant woman plus a civilian, then Mike is at least correct in saying that he was a traitor. You must be blinded by ideology. What's to debate when the obvious is staring at you in the face.

But we're talking about a religion that produces terrorist activity every day here. Frankly these terrorists get all their ideas straight from their own holy book. Seriously who the fuck are you kidding trying to downplay this?
I'm not comparing any random shootings. They're all senseless, but they're all preplanned. Somebody loads up a gun or guns, goes to the place that they plan to shoot up, & opens fire. There's nothing random about any of these incidents except for the individual targets once they get there. If there's any ideology involved at all, it's so convoluted that nobody can make heads or tails of it.

The only thing driving this idea that this particular incident was an act of terrorism is the fact that he's Muslim. Hasan's an American, born & raised. What "anti-American"? He was a commissioned officer in the all volunteer US army. He wasn't a spy or a mole or a sleeper. Islam is the world's largest religion. All practicing Muslims say Allah akbar (God is great) at least 5 times a day. So if the Columbine kids had yelled "oh Jesus!" before they opened fire, would anyone be blaming Christianity?


Muslims have gone postal in America before and not accused of terrorism. Even the DC Sniper wasn't accused of terrorism.Where? When? The DC snipers were thrill killers. The religion is incidental. From everything I've seen on this case, Hasan might have been torn about his role in a fight that seems more & more aimed at his religion, but the religion didn't direct him in his actions. All this tripe I'm seeing here seems to making his point. Are we at war with Islam in general, or are we out to stop groups of criminal terrorists?

So now the type of gun has something to do with motivation? Uh huh, sure... Just about any gun can shoot through kevlar if you have the right bullits. Why would anybody have been wearing a vest on a domestic US military installation anyway? Now you're just grasping at straws.

Whether the targets were military personnel or not has nothing to do with whether it's terrorism. They might as well have been civilians. They were unarmed sitting ducks, crowded together in a big room. Terrorism requires conspiracy & a political end. Saying the Qur'an told him to do it is like saying the voices in his head told him to do it. That pretty much rules out terrorism in favor of just plain old crazy.

The only thing obvious here is that there's a lot of paranoia going around, & a lot of y'all are just talking out of your asses & jumping to conclusions without knowing anything. You don't need any actual terrorism. You're terrorizing yourselves. Personally, I think I'll wait till the facts are in. So far, the only people shrieking terrorism in this case are bloggers & pundits.

paulgutierrez
11-29-2009, 01:31 AM
The only thing driving this idea that this particular incident was an act of terrorism is the fact that he's Muslim. Hasan's an American, born & raised. What "anti-American"? He was a commissioned officer in the all volunteer US army. He wasn't a spy or a mole or a sleeper. Islam is the world's largest religion. All practicing Muslims say Allah akbar (God is great) at least 5 times a day. So if the Columbine kids had yelled "oh Jesus!" before they opened fire, would anyone be blaming Christianity?

You obviously haven't read much about this then. He made anti-american comments in uniform, praised suicide bombers, received many complaints, and constantly got into arguments with his fellow servicemen and women over just that.

Also, no one said he was a spy, mole, or sleeper. you dont have to be a spy, mole, or sleeper to be a terrorist. Let me reference a lone terrorist for you. Timothy mcveigh - Oklahoma bomber. Acted alone without guidance from any sort of higher up. I could have also just as easily listed dozens of lone muslim terrorists (ie people who board buses with explosives strapped to themselves), but I thought bringing up a non muslim white man would be the only way you'd pick up on the point.

Furthermore, Mike didnt even say he was a terrorist. But is he a traitor? Yes. Did he go about this the way terrorists do? Yes. You were the first one in this thread to even bring up terrorism. That fact alone already shows your knee jerk bias.

The only thing driving your downplaying is the fact that hes a muslim. You hear this buzzword and automatically start drinking the koolaid. No surprise by a guy named hippifreak.




So now the type of gun has something to do with motivation? Uh huh, sure... Just about any gun can shoot through kevlar if you have the right bullits. Why would anybody have been wearing a vest on a domestic US military installation anyway? Now you're just grasping at straws.

Someone obviously doesnt know shit about the FN Five-Seven, named aptly for its unique cartridge and can penetrate kevlar at up to 300 meters. A couple years ago some lady was on the news calling for it to be banned because of what it could do in the hands of a terrorist.

Theres too much to go on for me to be grasping at straws. Yet, how are your arguments are holding up? You use semantics and typical hippie obfuscation to twist the blatant facts.



Whether the targets were military personnel or not has nothing to do with whether it's terrorism. They might as well have been civilians. They were unarmed sitting ducks, crowded together in a big room. Terrorism requires conspiracy & a political end. Saying the Qur'an told him to do it is like saying the voices in his head told him to do it. That pretty much rules out terrorism in favor of just plain old crazy.


Really? turning against America over the idea of fighting against people he considers his own kind is a new concept to you? You would reduce that to just plain insanity? Great reasoning bro.

hippifried
11-29-2009, 11:01 AM
He made anti-american comments in uniform, praised suicide bombers...Really? You're repeating yourself now, so how about a quote. What did he actually say? I've seen this same exact parrot comment all over the internet & on TV. I've even been linked to sources for the same word for word parroting, but they don't actually quote Hasan either. As dogmatic as this is becomming, one would think that someone must have first hand knowlege. Where's the quote? Sorry Polly, but my Pyrronist thought processes won't allow me to be that gullible.

McVey was NOT a lone terrorist. There were 3 convictions in that case. McVey is dead. Nichols will die in prison. Fortier fell on his sword (metaphorically) & protected the others that helped along the way. He's out now, & still not talking. They were all tied in with the neo-nazi movement in America, where they're considered heros. That was a conspiracy with a political end. Terrorism.

You can't point to a single suicide bomber who actually built the bomb. The person who's willing to die to deliver it is just that, a delivery system. Notice that you haven't seen much of that lately. The organized players have rockets now. Oops! Looks like another escalation of all that stupid over there in stupid central, AKA Palisraelistine. A 5000 year old intrafamily feud over a fucking bowl of soup & a fight over who mom liked best. Fuck those assholes. Kick them all out. If the stupid brats can't play nice, take away the toy.


Someone obviously doesnt know shit about the FN Five-Seven, named aptly for its unique cartridge and can penetrate kevlar at up to 300 meters. A couple years ago some lady was on the news calling for it to be banned because of what it could do in the hands of a terrorist.

Theres too much to go on for me to be grasping at straws. Yet, how are your arguments are holding up? You use semantics and typical hippie obfuscation to twist the blatant facts.Oh my arguments are holding up just fine. Thanks for askin'. Of course I don't know if I can match some lady on the news that wants the gun banned, but here goes. It's a 5.7mm bore with the same load that you'd use to push a 9 or 10mm or more. Gives more velocity & a flatter trajectory. It's the fully jacketed slug that penetrates kevlar or anything else. The latest variant is designed to sell to law enforcement in the US, & it's widely used. Cops like it. It's available at any decent gun shop, especially in Texas. Apparently the lady on the news didn't get her way.I still don't know how tis relates to whether this was terrorism or postalism, but they're your straws.


Really? turning against America over the idea of fighting against people he considers his own kind is a new concept to you? You would reduce that to just plain insanity? Great reasoning bro. There's a difference between objecting to your job & shooting up the workplace. He was/is a shrink. I've never met one of those who wasn't somewhat off. With his training, I don't imagine anybody's ever going to get the real story out of him.

Back to reality: Nobody who counts has accused Major Hasan of terrorism. Not the feds. Not the Army. Not the State of Texas, Bell County, or the city of Killeen. The accusation of "terrorism" is strictly on the internet, blogs & forums like this, & of course media pork from the opinion writers & talkers. So far, it's just a murder spree, & I doubt the charges will be altered to appease the paranoids & shriekers in the country.

chefmike
11-30-2009, 04:37 PM
Furthermore, Mike didnt even say he was a terrorist. But is he a traitor? Yes. Did he go about this the way terrorists do? Yes. You were the first one in this thread to even bring up terrorism. That fact alone already shows your knee jerk bias.

I don't recall mentioning terrorism, either....besides the guy being a traitor(and a coward), I guess that I would just call him another crazed religious fanatic...like the lunatics who bomb abortion clinics...are these terrorist acts?....maybe it's just a matter of semantics...

hippifried
11-30-2009, 07:29 PM
I brought up the word "terrorism", Mike. (bet you went back & checked, huh) You used the phrase "fanatical Muslim", & insinuated causality for the violent act. In today's rhetoric, that's become synonymous. We've had this overt "war on terror" raging for the last 8 years, & covertly for a lot longer than that. Most Muslims, & far too many who support the venture, see it as a war on Islam in general, the religious belief of 20% of the global population. Are they wrong? I certainly hope so, but I have serious doubts.

You also mentioned "treason", & Paul ran with it in his accusations of "anti-American" rhetoric. My position in this thread has consistently been that the religious belief is incidental, & there's nothing anti-American about questioning the policies of our government or the motives of those in power. Hell, a disgruntled employee shooting up the workplace might as well be "Mom & apple pie". Where else on earth is this commonplace? We just shrug it off nowadays, or even laugh it off. We even gave the phenomenon a humorous nickname, "going postal". The guy in Fla got kicked to the back page because there was no "media pork" angle to the story. Dollars to donuts says that most Americans never heard about it or have already forgotten. Just another guy "going postal". The Ft Hood story has legs because of where the workplace was, & that oh so titilating Muslim angle that the talking heads can fill airtime with.. But the reality is that it was "just another guy going postal".

hippifried
11-30-2009, 08:22 PM
By the way: The clinic bombings fit the narrow definition of terrorist acts. That clown who did a lot of them, & set the bomb in the Atlanta Olympic Park, is a terrorist, with an organized political agenda behind his actions. The people who put him up to it, & knowingly aided in his actions & escapes both here & abroad, are also part of the terrorist plot by definition.

On the other hand: The asshole who mailed the anthrax letters also had some convoluted religious/political agenda to promote the war on Islam. But he worked alone, & you can't call it terrorism because he did it for the money. His name is on patents for anthrax vaccines. CHA-$-CHING!!!

I think we agree on the utter stupidity of religious fanaticism, but I lump it in with all ideological fanaticism, including jingoism. But all "ism"s are just ideas, regardless of knowlege base, merit, or their adherents. You can't fight or promote ideas with physical force. That's why terrorism has a nearly 100% failure rate. You can only fight ideas with other ideas. The winning idea, when put into practice, never works out the way it was envisioned. I guess one could point out the 100% failure rate there too. Oh well, what the hell... Where's my gun?

chefmike
11-30-2009, 08:24 PM
I brought up the word "terrorism", Mike. (bet you went back & checked, huh)

Nope, because you'd be hard pressed to even find an example of me ever using that word here...and the same goes for the ridiculous bushinc mantra of "war on terror"....

chefmike
11-30-2009, 08:39 PM
And I mentioned treason because ol' Hadjii Hasan was in the military...that's what we called it when I was in...or maybe I was just brainwashed....must've been all that dope-smoking us swabbies did....that is when we weren't waving the flag and talking about killing commies and all.... :roll:

InHouston
12-09-2009, 01:23 PM
Uhhh ... when you volunteer for the military and you are suited up with a gun in your hand, and trained to kill others in a far off land ...

YOU ARE EXPENDABLE.

El Nino
12-10-2009, 05:33 AM
And may I add, pawns on a grand chessboard being manipulated and moved around by the will of the masters of war.

hippifried
12-10-2009, 06:33 AM
It's not treason either, Mike. Treason is clearly defined as aid to the enemy. That's not what happened here. This was murder. It's a violation of the UCMJ, but that doesn't make it treason. Military personnel kill each other periodically, & there's rules in the code to deal with it. Even when some pissed off grunt tosses a frag into an officers tent, in the middle of the war zone, it's not treason. It's murder. The numbers don't change that.

Too many people have tried to read too much into this that just isn't there. Personally, I'm hard pressed to find a lot of difference between this guy & the Columbine kids. I think it was a failed attempt at suicide by cop. He didn't protect himself with a vest or anything. He got shot up. I doubt that he figured on surviving the incident. Oops!

chefmike
12-10-2009, 06:49 PM
It's not treason either, Mike. Treason is clearly defined as aid to the enemy. That's not what happened here. This was murder. It's a violation of the UCMJ, but that doesn't make it treason. Military personnel kill each other periodically, & there's rules in the code to deal with it. Even when some pissed off grunt tosses a frag into an officers tent, in the middle of the war zone, it's not treason. It's murder. The numbers don't change that.

Too many people have tried to read too much into this that just isn't there. Personally, I'm hard pressed to find a lot of difference between this guy & the Columbine kids. I think it was a failed attempt at suicide by cop. He didn't protect himself with a vest or anything. He got shot up. I doubt that he figured on surviving the incident. Oops!

I'm certainly not alone in considering Hasan a murderous traitor to his country and his fellow soldiers, and treason is what you charge traitors with:

Main Entry: trai·tor
Pronunciation: \ˈtrā-tər\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English traytour, from Anglo-French traitre, from Latin traditor, from tradere to hand over, deliver, betray, from trans-, tra- trans- + dare to give — more at date
Date: 13th century
1 : one who betrays another's trust or is false to an obligation or duty
2 : one who commits treason

"Assuming Hasan is convicted, and no exculpatory evidence exonerates him, I would prefer to think of him as a traitor, than a terrorist. It's a more accurate description of his (alleged) act. Turning his weapon on his fellow soldiers was an act of profound betrayal. We have terrorists aplenty in this world: to call Hasan one more doesn't really do justice to the heinousness of his act. To call him traitor, a man who declared war on his own country and countrymen, is more apt."

chefmike
12-10-2009, 06:55 PM
And may I add, pawns on a grand chessboard being manipulated and moved around by the will of the masters of war.

You're such a pathetic cliche.

Are those nasty Bilderberg folks still keeping you up nights, Kaczynski?

El Nino
12-10-2009, 10:29 PM
Strike a nerve did I? Go cook up some more BS, Chef. It's your SPECIALTY!!

hippifried
12-10-2009, 11:59 PM
You're not alone, Mike. There's a lot of people who think all kinds of things about this incident. This is America. Everybody's entitled to an opinion. Even Nino. But Hassan won't be charged with either terrorism or treason because the evidence doesn't support such charges. I'm not even sure how much premeditation was involved. We may never know. It's rare that we catch a mass mureder alive to ask why, but this guy is trained in the art of psychological manipulation, so I'm not all that sure that anything he says can be trusted.

I notice this story's fallen by the wayside. The coverage stopped after about a week. I guess Tiger's more interesting, or whatever goosip was happening in between the Tiger thing & the cessation of coverage of the mass murder.

El Nino
12-11-2009, 12:53 AM
Well, Hippi, you are correct sir... Everybody is entitled to an opinion (even ME, very subtle there wise ass) Unfortunately however, the vast pool of opinions seem to be getting less and less diverse as the years roll by. See the following chart and see for yourself how tightly the information is controlled. Almost starting to reek of fascism a little, eh?

hippifried
12-11-2009, 02:12 AM
That's a good graph. It shows the effect of supply side monopolistic thinking. Of course you have to remember that the FCC doesn't control print media, & that the hundreds of independents are in single markets.

So what does it have to do with this topic?

El Nino
12-11-2009, 03:54 AM
The Graph has to do with everything about this topic. The niddy griddy details of the Wars are censored and filtered (so that you will not see the horor that it brings to both sides) through your television sets. If it were allowed, the wars would end in short order. Common citizens would *see* the expendibility factor for their own eyes; if the media wasn't controlled by the same corporations that own defense contractors, that make $ off of war. It seems as tho you like being spoonfed mainstream news drivel, however.

hippifried
12-11-2009, 06:55 AM
As far as I know, the only war we've ever engaged in, where the media wasn't censored, was VietNam. That fiasco lasted 10 years. If we hadn't lost outright, we'd still be there. We've had a perpetual war going on since 1941. It remains to be seen if there's a change in the mindset, & we start winding it all down & concentrate on humanitarian problems. Regrdless, anything is going to take years. There's no instant fix.

El Nino
12-11-2009, 08:08 AM
It should be noted that the media is in fact censored. It is controlled and inhibited from circulating the truly graphic photos and videos that tell the tales and greusome nature of warfare. The reasons for this are obvious, but very disingenuous. FTW

hippifried
12-11-2009, 08:44 PM
Again, already known & understood. You're not imparting any secrets, Nino.

El Nino
12-11-2009, 10:05 PM
I know that, I was just preventing any confusion and pin-pointing details..