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View Full Version : How similar are the cases against Iran and Iraq?



Ben
10-01-2009, 04:31 AM
Salon.com -- Glenn Greenwald
Wednesday Sept. 30, 2009 11:31 EDT
How similar are the cases against Iran and Iraq?

Scott Shane has an article in today's New York Times examining whether the government and media's behavior now with regard to Iran is similar to what happened in 2002 and 2003 concerning Iraq. I'm quoted in the article in several places, including saying that the "similarities are substantial and disturbing." I want to focus on one point raised by this topic.

Although I think there are ample similarities, I don't think the situations are identical. To begin with, I don't believe (though it's obviously just speculation) that Obama's motive -- at least at this point -- is a military attack on Iran, if for no other reason than such an attack would severely complicate everything else he has to do. The similarities which I referenced have far more to do with how the media uncritically digests and disseminates government claims and how unproven assertions magically transform into unchallenged facts.

Consider this front-page New York Times article written the same day Obama, along with the leaders of Britain and France, held their melodramatic press conference. This is when and how conventional wisdom about this episode solidified, and that key NYT article does little more than re-print dubious and uncorroborated claims of anonymous American officials that cast the Iranian conduct in the most threatening possible light. One paragraph after the next is guilty of that, though I want to highlight this one in particular, because it's become such a central assertion for those wanting to incite panic about the Iranian facility:

Mr. Obama said he had withheld making the intelligence public for months because it "is very important in these kind of high-stakes situations to make sure the intelligence is right" -- a clear allusion to former President George W. Bush’s release of intelligence on Iraq seven years ago this month that proved baseless. Mr. Obama’s hand was forced, however, after Iran, apparently learning that the site had been discovered by Western intelligence, delivered a vague, terse letter to the International Atomic Energy Agency on Monday disclosing that it was building a second plant, one that it had never mentioned during years of inspections.

Is there any evidence whatsoever for that claim in bold? Although this assertion is repeated as fact over and over, I've not seen anything to support it other than the claims of anonymous government officials. What evidence is there that the Iranians reported this facility to the IAEA only because they learned that the U.S. had discovered the facility? For that matter, what evidence is there that the Iranians ever realized this at all? Whether Iran reported the facility voluntarily or only because they were forced to do so by virtue of having been "caught" is a self-evidently relevant fact to all of this, and yet the claims of anonymous officials on this question are uncritically assumed to be true without any skepticism, demands for evidence, or consideration of alternative views.

The same dynamic repeats itself on the question of whether this facility could have been designed for civilian uses, whether Iran really had any feasible hope to hide it (given the pervasive use of satellites), whether there were legitimate reasons for Iran to disperse its nuclear facilities, and whether Iran really violated international law by disclosing this facility to the IAEA more than a year (at least) before operability. Far more than any comparison between the Obama administration's current intentions towards Iran and Bush's towards Iraq in 2002, that is what I mean when I say there are substantial similarities between the two time periods.

In fact, that's what I believe is the most significant issue here. It's not surprising that media coverage of this matter is similar (though not identical) to what happened in 2002 with Iraq, given that media organizations and establishment journalists (with some exceptions) never examined what they did wrong in the run-up to the Iraq War and, indeed, don't think they did anything fundamentally wrong. Recall that David Gregory, Charlie Gibson, Brian Williams and numerous other establishment journalists all explicitly said that they reject the view that they failed to do their jobs prior to the attack on Iraq. The NYT itself, one of the very few outlets to examine its pre-war behavior in any way, issued only the narrowest and mildest mea culpas, while one of that paper's prime culprits, Michael Gordon, to this day angrily rejects the notion that he did anything wrong, and thereafter, long continued to report on "the Iranian threat."

Just look at that original NYT article on Iran to see that the principal reporting methods have not changed. The whole article is framed based on claims from the government. The sources are almost all anonymous U.S. government officials. Provocative, unproven claims -- ones that will obviously inflame war passions among a significant segment of the population -- are passed on with no evidence and little questioning. Dissenting voices are excluded (other than a fleeting, token quote from the Iranian President buried in the middle). And overnight, an extremely fear-inciting and sensationalistic case against Iran was cemented as unchallengeable wisdom across the political spectrum. Along with a few other isolated reports, Shane's article today commendably includes some voices raising questions about all of this, but the vast bulk of the coverage from the start has consisted of an unquestioning recitation of the government's case against Iran. The similarities between that behavior and 2002 strike me as both self-evident and, given the lack of institutional remorse in journalism, inevitable.

evilernie
10-01-2009, 04:46 AM
First off, I think there are images this time. Even Iran admitted it. They are enriching Uranium. They are testing their missile technology. Put those together you have a long rang nuclear weapon.

I was wondering about Iraq when we invaded - why not Iran? We sided with Iraq the first time. And I'm sure Saddam would join us in that unholy alliance against Iran. He might even do the dirty work for us if we let him know we will watch his butt (regardless of the genocide).

However, I think Iran will be more difficult than Iraq. Iran have more crazies (like the GOP - just kidding).

My suspicion is that GWB thought that Saddam is weak (which is proven true). However, we could have just left it at that, but he came up with the bright idea to stabilize the country. That's where we made the mistake. But it's turning out ok now.

In conclusion, Iran should be dealt with internal uprising.

gotchagood
10-01-2009, 05:55 AM
First off, I think there are images this time. Even Iran admitted it. They are enriching Uranium. They are testing their missile technology. Put those together you have a long rang nuclear weapon.

I was wondering about Iraq when we invaded - why not Iran? We sided with Iraq the first time. And I'm sure Saddam would join us in that unholy alliance against Iran. He might even do the dirty work for us if we let him know we will watch his butt (regardless of the genocide).

However, I think Iran will be more difficult than Iraq. Iran have more crazies (like the GOP - just kidding).

My suspicion is that GWB thought that Saddam is weak (which is proven true). However, we could have just left it at that, but he came up with the bright idea to stabilize the country. That's where we made the mistake. But it's turning out ok now.

In conclusion, Iran should be dealt with internal uprising. I don't think we underestimated Iraq. As a matter of fact, I have a friend who works for the Gov. "undercover" and he told me a few years ago that we "won" the war in Iraq awhile back, but what's been going on is other terrorist from Iran, and the surrounding countries are being sent into Iraq by Bin Ladin and other terrorist org. Their mission? Set bombs etc. shoot at the U.S. soldiers. He stated that the news media never show the kids over there playing soccer, baseball, etc. He also stated that many times, when we hear of a bomb going off; it's like living in Chicago and having a bomb go off in California, but yet again the media covers the story of the bombings and gives all the Jihadist their 15 minutes of fame. Which is exactly what they want.

People didn't believe GWB when he quoted the 3 axis of evil; people in this country wanted to turn tale and run and not want to face the truth of what he was saying. North Korea, Iran, Iraq. and who are we having problems with????


Have a great day.

raybbaby
10-01-2009, 07:00 AM
First off, I think there are images this time. Even Iran admitted it. They are enriching Uranium. They are testing their missile technology. Put those together you have a long rang nuclear weapon.

I was wondering about Iraq when we invaded - why not Iran? We sided with Iraq the first time. And I'm sure Saddam would join us in that unholy alliance against Iran. He might even do the dirty work for us if we let him know we will watch his butt (regardless of the genocide).

However, I think Iran will be more difficult than Iraq. Iran have more crazies (like the GOP - just kidding).

My suspicion is that GWB thought that Saddam is weak (which is proven true). However, we could have just left it at that, but he came up with the bright idea to stabilize the country. That's where we made the mistake. But it's turning out ok now.

In conclusion, Iran should be dealt with internal uprising. I don't think we underestimated Iraq. As a matter of fact, I have a friend who works for the Gov. "undercover" and he told me a few years ago that we "won" the war in Iraq awhile back, but what's been going on is other terrorist from Iran, and the surrounding countries are being sent into Iraq by Bin Ladin and other terrorist org. Their mission? Set bombs etc. shoot at the U.S. soldiers. He stated that the news media never show the kids over there playing soccer, baseball, etc. He also stated that many times, when we hear of a bomb going off; it's like living in Chicago and having a bomb go off in California, but yet again the media covers the story of the bombings and gives all the Jihadist their 15 minutes of fame. Which is exactly what they want.

People didn't believe GWB when he quoted the 3 axis of evil; people in this country wanted to turn tale and run and not want to face the truth of what he was saying. North Korea, Iran, Iraq. and who are we having problems with????


Have a great day.
What an enormous load of crap. It's funny you understand Iraq and Iran were adversaries, but yet part of some kind of axis. The Iran story is nothing. Just the media trying to sell advertising time. Iran announced what they were doing, and are not in any way in violation of the nuclear non-proliferation act. There's no real story at all.

gotchagood
10-02-2009, 04:23 AM
First off, I think there are images this time. Even Iran admitted it. They are enriching Uranium. They are testing their missile technology. Put those together you have a long rang nuclear weapon.

I was wondering about Iraq when we invaded - why not Iran? We sided with Iraq the first time. And I'm sure Saddam would join us in that unholy alliance against Iran. He might even do the dirty work for us if we let him know we will watch his butt (regardless of the genocide).

However, I think Iran will be more difficult than Iraq. Iran have more crazies (like the GOP - just kidding).

My suspicion is that GWB thought that Saddam is weak (which is proven true). However, we could have just left it at that, but he came up with the bright idea to stabilize the country. That's where we made the mistake. But it's turning out ok now.

In conclusion, Iran should be dealt with internal uprising. I don't think we underestimated Iraq. As a matter of fact, I have a friend who works for the Gov. "undercover" and he told me a few years ago that we "won" the war in Iraq awhile back, but what's been going on is other terrorist from Iran, and the surrounding countries are being sent into Iraq by Bin Ladin and other terrorist org. Their mission? Set bombs etc. shoot at the U.S. soldiers. He stated that the news media never show the kids over there playing soccer, baseball, etc. He also stated that many times, when we hear of a bomb going off; it's like living in Chicago and having a bomb go off in California, but yet again the media covers the story of the bombings and gives all the Jihadist their 15 minutes of fame. Which is exactly what they want.

People didn't believe GWB when he quoted the 3 axis of evil; people in this country wanted to turn tale and run and not want to face the truth of what he was saying. North Korea, Iran, Iraq. and who are we having problems with????


Have a great day.
What an enormous load of crap. It's funny you understand Iraq and Iran were adversaries, but yet part of some kind of axis. The Iran story is nothing. Just the media trying to sell advertising time. Iran announced what they were doing, and are not in any way in violation of the nuclear non-proliferation act. There's no real story at all.Sure they "were" adversaries, but that doesn't mean that they still can't/wouldn't pose a separate threat to the U.S. Israel and other countries; are you nuts?? Sure they may not be making weapons... yet. You're talking about the president of Iran stating in the news, that he would blow Israel off the map if they had a nuclear weapon! Read further to educate yourself fella (http://ezinearticles.com/?Iranian-President-Statements-to-Blow-Israel-Off-the-Map&id=179578) by the way, I didn't quote this article, I "just" looked it up only for "you". Anyway, whether or not they are making nuclear weapons or not, they still pose a threat through terrorist training camps etc. and what's North Korea doing?? Shooting missiles over the south, flexing muscle etc.

I guess you're one of those people that just doesn't believe "crap" until you walk out of your house and have a scud missile shot up your arse. I take it that you don't believe that they just caught a terrorist group planning a bombing in New York's subway system? Do you believe the trade centers are still standing? Also, I "do" have a friend who works undercover for the goverment and "no" he's not military personnel. As far as I know, he's been assigned in Jabooty Africa , Afghanistan, Iraq, Bahrain, Kuwait and he's over there somewhere in the middle east right now, what he's doing? He couldn't tell me.

Where have you been living?? A packing crate? I bet your breathe still smells like Similac. Educate yourself before you make comments while trying to defend Iran.


Have a great day fella :wink:

callahac
10-02-2009, 05:39 AM
Wake up people! Our economy is in the toilet. Nothing is going to bring it back (you can't spend your way to prosperity), the people in Washington know that in a few months after the stimulus money has been burned up, people are going to be at their wits end. Solution? Start a war. The die has been cast, now it is a matter of when. This one will be big and ugly, as the Iraninans have ways of striking back. And that is ok, because it will take people's mind of the fact that their job has been shipped to China, they are living on food stamps and the bailed out bank is about to foreclose.

I think this is nuts, and this is coming not from a left wing pacifist, but a pretty damn conservative leaning type of guy.

MrF
10-02-2009, 03:39 PM
Part of the reason Iran is developing nukes is the fear of the USA. They heard our president rant about "axis of evil", then invade one member of that axis (Iraq), and think they may be next. Put yourself in their shoes for a minute !

I wonder how dangerous it would be if Iran had nukes. Their president is a nut job, but does he really have the power to use nukes ? From what I've read and heard, there are more rational forces in charge of that. But who knows ? There is some risk that Iran could nuke Isreal or give the weapons to a terrorist group, but they know the consequences of that would be dire, so if they are rational they would not do it.

A war with Iran would be horrible. The only thing that might make it easier is if they crumble from within and get new, more friendly leadership. However, faced with an external enemy (the USA) the rivals in Iran are likely to unify for the cause of defending their country. And they would fight hard.