So True

[Cuchulain]

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/14/opinion/14krugman.html?_r=2

'his vision of a “different kind of politics” was a vain hope, that any Democrat who made it to the White House would face “an unending procession of wild charges and fake scandals, dutifully given credence by major media organizations that somehow can’t bring themselves to declare the accusations unequivocally false.”

So, how’s it going?

Sure enough, President Obama is now facing the same kind of opposition that President Bill Clinton had to deal with: an enraged right that denies the legitimacy of his presidency, that eagerly seizes on every wild rumor manufactured by the right-wing media complex.

This opposition cannot be appeased. Some pundits claim that Mr. Obama has polarized the country by following too liberal an agenda. But the truth is that the attacks on the president have no relationship to anything he is actually doing or proposing.'

[techi]

FDR had to deal with the same type of right wing crazies. He also inherited a Supreme Court packed with reactionary judges... Andrew Mellon types. Guess what, FDR still got shit done because he provided true leadership.

Democrats have control of the House, Senate and the executive.... no excuses for failing!!! No one ever said that being President is easy and if Obama fails it's going to be due to a lack of leadership skills rather than because of some right wing crazies.

[Cuchulain]

FDR had to deal with the same type of right wing crazies. He also inherited a Supreme Court packed with reactionary judges... Andrew Mellon types. Guess what, FDR still got shit done because he provided true leadership.

Democrats have control of the House, Senate and the executive.... no excuses for failing!!! No one ever said that being President is easy and if Obama fails it's going to be due to a lack of leadership skills rather than because of some right wing crazies.

Agreed. He's got to find a way to win. Unfortunately, he's rapidly proving that he's no FDR. He needs to forget this bipartisan horseshit. Fuck the Republicans. They're not interested in anything but making Obama fail. Strongarm the CONservative Dems. Ram it down their throats.

[q1a2z3]

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/14/opinion/14krugman.html?_r=2

'his vision of a “different kind of politics” was a vain hope, that any Democrat who made it to the White House would face “an unending procession of wild charges and fake scandals, dutifully given credence by major media organizations that somehow can’t bring themselves to declare the accusations unequivocally false.”

So, how’s it going?

Sure enough, President Obama is now facing the same kind of opposition that President Bill Clinton had to deal with: an enraged right that denies the legitimacy of his presidency, that eagerly seizes on every wild rumor manufactured by the right-wing media complex.

This opposition cannot be appeased. Some pundits claim that Mr. Obama has polarized the country by following too liberal an agenda. But the truth is that the attacks on the president have no relationship to anything he is actually doing or proposing.'


What a joke! His policies are killing the country!!!
Obama does not know how to sell nationalized health care.

Obama should have written his own plan instead of leaving up to the Emanuel brothers.

The plan would be simple and to the point.

1. Your coverage belongs to you! Not the government, not the insurance company and not to the doctors.

2. Your coverage can not be canceled for any reason. No preexisting conditions.

3. Your place in line to see the doctor is directly determined by how well you take care of yourself vs how capable you are of taking care of yourself.

4. The system would be single payer.

5. Birth control is free

6. Cosmetic surgery is not covered

7. Abortion is covered based on the laws governing each state.

8. Illegals are covered, but must be counseled by a government official to return to their home country every five years! :D

9. Doctors are free to freelance in private clinics and hospitals. Doctors can refuse to do any procedure they disagree with regardless of reason.

10. People are automatically enrolled at birth and are free to seek health care on the free market as well.

11 Arbitration will replace law suits in the single payer system. This is done on all stock markets. Doctors would no longer pay ridiculous premiums. Patients could not receive money in a settlement. Only services, rehabilitation, and technology would be available for remedy.

12. The creation of health credits would allow healthy people to sell their credits to the unhealthy, save them for a rainy day, or will them upon death.

If you take every able-bodied American and show them a height/weight/age chart and show them what they are doing to themselves in terms of bad diet and no exercise then their coverage will be some number of standard deviations from the norm. This will result in placing the person further back in line for health care. Their appointments will be scheduled further out in the future. Their doctor will want to see more progress to get back to the norm before something can be taken care of. Why replace a knee on a guy who weights 400 lbs? Help him get into a swimming and diet program to make progress then fix the knee.

Say the guy is not so able-bodied due to situation beyond his control like Parkinson's disease. This would be applied to push him back to the norm or perhaps closer to the norm. Anyone who is actually helping themselves stay healthy has a better outcome.Perhaps this guy does some exercises in his wheelchair and eats right. He gets points for that.

Height/weight/age/smoking/drinking/drug use/etc.. will all play into this. The credits one builds up during the healthy years could help in the unhealthy later years.

People can go beyond the norm and generate health credits. These people love to exercise, eat right, etc. A man or woman who exceeds the norm for his or her age would be rewarded!

The government would not have any patient information nor would they have any access to such information. The disbursement of monies would be done by companies who bid on blocks of patients. Insurance companies would most likely fulfill this role. Payroll deductions would continue like normal, but the money would go to the clearinghouse. The government would provide payment for those who can't pay - money would go from government to clearinghouse. When you lose your job, the government would then pay your share until you can or you pass on.

This approach would result in people knowing where they are on the pecking order for health care. People know where they are now by how much money they have and by their good/bad habits.

[q1a2z3]

FDR had to deal with the same type of right wing crazies. He also inherited a Supreme Court packed with reactionary judges... Andrew Mellon types. Guess what, FDR still got shit done because he provided true leadership.

Democrats have control of the House, Senate and the executive.... no excuses for failing!!! No one ever said that being President is easy and if Obama fails it's going to be due to a lack of leadership skills rather than because of some right wing crazies.

Agreed. He's got to find a way to win. Unfortunately, he's rapidly proving that he's no FDR. He needs to forget this bipartisan horseshit. Fuck the Republicans. They're not interested in anything but making Obama fail. Strongarm the CONservative Dems. Ram it down their throats.


RAM it up their ass too!!! LOL

A good way to get the DEMs out of office. Not a big change to go with REPs.

[Cuchulain]

What a joke! His policies are killing the country!!!

Get back in the basement you lunatic or I'll take away your sex vid of Dick Cheney and Glenn Beck. What happened to your jackass avatar? At least that one was mildly funny.

Oh well, at least your rant provides me an opportunity I never thought I'd have: to quote Barney Frank. When confronted by a deranged woman accusing him and Obama of being nazis, he told her " Madam, trying to have a conversation with you would be like arguing with a dining room table and I have no interest in doing it."

[q1a2z3]

What a joke! His policies are killing the country!!!

Get back in the basement you lunatic or I'll take away your sex vid of Dick Cheney and Glenn Beck. What happened to your jackass avatar? At least that one was mildly funny.

Oh well, at least your rant provides me an opportunity I never thought I'd have: to quote Barney Frank. When confronted by a deranged woman accusing him and Obama of being nazis, he told her " Madam, trying to have a conversation with you would be like arguing with a dining room table and I have no interest in doing it."


Lunatic? That is the definition of a moonbat. Just look in the mirror. So.. you don't like my "obama in the woodpile" pic. TFB - lol.

The nice thing about the second American Revolution is we will round you up and deport you to Europe or make gasoline out of you - er... your choice - lol!

As for barney fag and his friends they will be at the "rear" of the health care line with all those STDs they can't control their urges for tube steak!

[El Nino]

ahahaha... nice Q, noice!

[Cuchulain]

The nice thing about the second American Revolution is we will round you up and deport you to Europe or make gasoline out of you - er... your choice - lol!


A REICHwing revolution? Please, you clowns have already had your revolution and you won...without gunfire and militias marching in the streets. Reagan, CONservative think tanks, corporate money and FOX noise have dragged this country far to the right. Maybe you're too dumb to see it and maybe you're just playing the game.

Whenever a politician pulls back from the ragged right edge, even a little, or some moderate idea or group threatens to gain some support in the public mind, you clowns scream like scalded cats. The fear-mongering and cries of 'communism' and 'we're losing our freedom' ring out.

In FDR's time. not all the CONs wanted his head on a platter. Some said "leave him alone. Let him throw the peasants a bone. It'll pacify them and we can get back to business as usual."

Lately, the CONs who aren't satisfied with most of the pie have won out. You have to have every last crumb. That's why Obama got elected. Even a disenfranchised and ignorant public took notice of the blatant thuggery of the Bush/Cheney gang.

Relax. Obama is no liberal. He's a moderate. Let him toss the peasants a few crumbs. The filthy rich will still get filthier and everyone else will still get screwed, but they'll survive to be screwed again...and yet again.

[techi]

As for barney fag and his friends they will be at the "rear" of the health care line with all those STDs they can't control their urges for tube steak!

LOL

I take it that your house is made of bullet proof glass.

[q1a2z3]

As for barney fag and his friends they will be at the "rear" of the health care line with all those STDs they can't control their urges for tube steak!

LOL

I take it that your house is made of bullet proof glass.


Which one?

[hippifried]

1. Your coverage belongs to you! Not the government, not the insurance company and not to the doctors.

2. Your coverage can not be canceled for any reason. No preexisting conditions.

3. Your place in line to see the doctor is directly determined by how well you take care of yourself vs how capable you are of taking care of yourself.

4. The system would be single payer.

5. Birth control is free

6. Cosmetic surgery is not covered

7. Abortion is covered based on the laws governing each state.

8. Illegals are covered, but must be counseled by a government official to return to their home country every five years! :D

9. Doctors are free to freelance in private clinics and hospitals. Doctors can refuse to do any procedure they disagree with regardless of reason.

10. People are automatically enrolled at birth and are free to seek health care on the free market as well.

11 Arbitration will replace law suits in the single payer system. This is done on all stock markets. Doctors would no longer pay ridiculous premiums. Patients could not receive money in a settlement. Only services, rehabilitation, and technology would be available for remedy.

12. The creation of health credits would allow healthy people to sell their credits to the unhealthy, save them for a rainy day, or will them upon death.

If you take every able-bodied American and show them a height/weight/age chart and show them what they are doing to themselves in terms of bad diet and no exercise then their coverage will be some number of standard deviations from the norm. This will result in placing the person further back in line for health care. Their appointments will be scheduled further out in the future. Their doctor will want to see more progress to get back to the norm before something can be taken care of. Why replace a knee on a guy who weights 400 lbs? Help him get into a swimming and diet program to make progress then fix the knee.

Say the guy is not so able-bodied due to situation beyond his control like Parkinson's disease. This would be applied to push him back to the norm or perhaps closer to the norm. Anyone who is actually helping themselves stay healthy has a better outcome.Perhaps this guy does some exercises in his wheelchair and eats right. He gets points for that.

Height/weight/age/smoking/drinking/drug use/etc.. will all play into this. The credits one builds up during the healthy years could help in the unhealthy later years.

People can go beyond the norm and generate health credits. These people love to exercise, eat right, etc. A man or woman who exceeds the norm for his or her age would be rewarded!

The government would not have any patient information nor would they have any access to such information. The disbursement of monies would be done by companies who bid on blocks of patients. Insurance companies would most likely fulfill this role. Payroll deductions would continue like normal, but the money would go to the clearinghouse. The government would provide payment for those who can't pay - money would go from government to clearinghouse. When you lose your job, the government would then pay your share until you can or you pass on.

This approach would result in people knowing where they are on the pecking order for health care. People know where they are now by how much money they have and by their good/bad habits.
Well... Aside from creating a pecking order outside of triage, where none need exist, your plan sounds a lot like what's been proposed by the President.

Wow! A convert.

[techi]

As for barney fag and his friends they will be at the "rear" of the health care line with all those STDs they can't control their urges for tube steak!

LOL

I take it that your house is made of bullet proof glass.


Which one?

The one(s) you throw stones from.

[q1a2z3]

1. Your coverage belongs to you! Not the government, not the insurance company and not to the doctors.

2. Your coverage can not be canceled for any reason. No preexisting conditions.

3. Your place in line to see the doctor is directly determined by how well you take care of yourself vs how capable you are of taking care of yourself.

4. The system would be single payer.

5. Birth control is free

6. Cosmetic surgery is not covered

7. Abortion is covered based on the laws governing each state.

8. Illegals are covered, but must be counseled by a government official to return to their home country every five years! :D

9. Doctors are free to freelance in private clinics and hospitals. Doctors can refuse to do any procedure they disagree with regardless of reason.

10. People are automatically enrolled at birth and are free to seek health care on the free market as well.

11 Arbitration will replace law suits in the single payer system. This is done on all stock markets. Doctors would no longer pay ridiculous premiums. Patients could not receive money in a settlement. Only services, rehabilitation, and technology would be available for remedy.

12. The creation of health credits would allow healthy people to sell their credits to the unhealthy, save them for a rainy day, or will them upon death.

If you take every able-bodied American and show them a height/weight/age chart and show them what they are doing to themselves in terms of bad diet and no exercise then their coverage will be some number of standard deviations from the norm. This will result in placing the person further back in line for health care. Their appointments will be scheduled further out in the future. Their doctor will want to see more progress to get back to the norm before something can be taken care of. Why replace a knee on a guy who weights 400 lbs? Help him get into a swimming and diet program to make progress then fix the knee.

Say the guy is not so able-bodied due to situation beyond his control like Parkinson's disease. This would be applied to push him back to the norm or perhaps closer to the norm. Anyone who is actually helping themselves stay healthy has a better outcome.Perhaps this guy does some exercises in his wheelchair and eats right. He gets points for that.

Height/weight/age/smoking/drinking/drug use/etc.. will all play into this. The credits one builds up during the healthy years could help in the unhealthy later years.

People can go beyond the norm and generate health credits. These people love to exercise, eat right, etc. A man or woman who exceeds the norm for his or her age would be rewarded!

The government would not have any patient information nor would they have any access to such information. The disbursement of monies would be done by companies who bid on blocks of patients. Insurance companies would most likely fulfill this role. Payroll deductions would continue like normal, but the money would go to the clearinghouse. The government would provide payment for those who can't pay - money would go from government to clearinghouse. When you lose your job, the government would then pay your share until you can or you pass on.

This approach would result in people knowing where they are on the pecking order for health care. People know where they are now by how much money they have and by their good/bad habits.
Well... Aside from creating a pecking order outside of triage, where none need exist, your plan sounds a lot like what's been proposed by the President.

Wow! A convert.


Convert? LOL no chance.

Reading the House Bill as it stands does contain the crazy cost saving methods people don't like.

Obama has not presented a plan of his own. I keep waiting for him to throw Pelosi and Reid under the bus for creating an insane plan.

If obama presented my plan up front he would have gotten buy-in from most people.

Obama's "I'm smarter than you" and "shove it down people's throats" approach has poisoned his current and future prospects.


All I was doing with this exercise was to point out how to present a plan successfully. Former Gov. Dick Lamb, who calls himself a credit card liberal, points out in his book that health care can only be rationed. There is not enough individual wealth to provide for everyone.

My plan does the following:

1. Puts the government in the position of paying and not having any clue as to who you are or what your medical conditions are.
2. Puts people in the position of doing preventative health care in order to have a good place in line when needed.
3. Puts the insurance companies in the position to be accountants and not God.
4. Put doctors in the position to follow their Hippocratic Oath. You can help a person who helps themselves to live - the others you are really helping them to die - slower.

I believe that most people will use "keeping my place in line" to actually step away from being workaholics. If 50% of the people stay on the height/weight/age chart they may never see the inside of a hospital.

[hippifried]

1. Your coverage belongs to you! Not the government, not the insurance company and not to the doctors.

2. Your coverage can not be canceled for any reason. No preexisting conditions.

3. Your place in line to see the doctor is directly determined by how well you take care of yourself vs how capable you are of taking care of yourself.

4. The system would be single payer.

5. Birth control is free

6. Cosmetic surgery is not covered

7. Abortion is covered based on the laws governing each state.

8. Illegals are covered, but must be counseled by a government official to return to their home country every five years! :D

9. Doctors are free to freelance in private clinics and hospitals. Doctors can refuse to do any procedure they disagree with regardless of reason.

10. People are automatically enrolled at birth and are free to seek health care on the free market as well.

11 Arbitration will replace law suits in the single payer system. This is done on all stock markets. Doctors would no longer pay ridiculous premiums. Patients could not receive money in a settlement. Only services, rehabilitation, and technology would be available for remedy.

12. The creation of health credits would allow healthy people to sell their credits to the unhealthy, save them for a rainy day, or will them upon death.

If you take every able-bodied American and show them a height/weight/age chart and show them what they are doing to themselves in terms of bad diet and no exercise then their coverage will be some number of standard deviations from the norm. This will result in placing the person further back in line for health care. Their appointments will be scheduled further out in the future. Their doctor will want to see more progress to get back to the norm before something can be taken care of. Why replace a knee on a guy who weights 400 lbs? Help him get into a swimming and diet program to make progress then fix the knee.

Say the guy is not so able-bodied due to situation beyond his control like Parkinson's disease. This would be applied to push him back to the norm or perhaps closer to the norm. Anyone who is actually helping themselves stay healthy has a better outcome.Perhaps this guy does some exercises in his wheelchair and eats right. He gets points for that.

Height/weight/age/smoking/drinking/drug use/etc.. will all play into this. The credits one builds up during the healthy years could help in the unhealthy later years.

People can go beyond the norm and generate health credits. These people love to exercise, eat right, etc. A man or woman who exceeds the norm for his or her age would be rewarded!

The government would not have any patient information nor would they have any access to such information. The disbursement of monies would be done by companies who bid on blocks of patients. Insurance companies would most likely fulfill this role. Payroll deductions would continue like normal, but the money would go to the clearinghouse. The government would provide payment for those who can't pay - money would go from government to clearinghouse. When you lose your job, the government would then pay your share until you can or you pass on.

This approach would result in people knowing where they are on the pecking order for health care. People know where they are now by how much money they have and by their good/bad habits.
Well... Aside from creating a pecking order outside of triage, where none need exist, your plan sounds a lot like what's been proposed by the President.

Wow! A convert.


Convert? LOL no chance.

Reading the House Bill as it stands does contain the crazy cost saving methods people don't like.

Obama has not presented a plan of his own. I keep waiting for him to throw Pelosi and Reid under the bus for creating an insane plan.

If obama presented my plan up front he would have gotten buy-in from most people.

Obama's "I'm smarter than you" and "shove it down people's throats" approach has poisoned his current and future prospects.


All I was doing with this exercise was to point out how to present a plan successfully. Former Gov. Dick Lamb, who calls himself a credit card liberal, points out in his book that health care can only be rationed. There is not enough individual wealth to provide for everyone.

My plan does the following:

1. Puts the government in the position of paying and not having any clue as to who you are or what your medical conditions are.
2. Puts people in the position of doing preventative health care in order to have a good place in line when needed.
3. Puts the insurance companies in the position to be accountants and not God.
4. Put doctors in the position to follow their Hippocratic Oath. You can help a person who helps themselves to live - the others you are really helping them to die - slower.

I believe that most people will use "keeping my place in line" to actually step away from being workaholics. If 50% of the people stay on the height/weight/age chart they may never see the inside of a hospital.You haven't read the House bill. You're just parroting. Now you're changing your tune again. Let's look at this last 4:

1. Unless you're a Mexican. (See #8 of your original list.) The government's supposed to know who you are without knowing who you are? That's a bit much. You seem to be giving god-like qualities to the government while trying to control it through ignorance. Doesn't seem feasable, unless you want to turn doctors into homeland security agents.

2. Here's this "place in line" thing again. What line?

3. This whole thing of insurance companies running the healthcare industry is new. Since the '80s. Rules were changed that let insurance buy up the management companies, who were hired to oversee the myriad of co-op trust funds, & take over the funds themselves so that the member contributions are now just premiums & the members have no say over coverage. It ain't your money anymore. It's not just healthcare either. Try to find a private pension plan that's something other than an insurance annuity nowadays. Show me a State that's enacted mandatory automobile insurance where premiums didn't double or triple in the first 2 years. Hedge funds are insurance schemes. Credit default swaps are an insurance scheme. The derivatives that fueled last year's bank collapse are insurance schemes. Our reliance on insurance to be able to do anything is just a huge memetic scam. If the insurance industry loses it's grip on healthcare because of the public option, so be it. They weren't necessary before.

4. Doctors already follow the Hippocratic Oath. Any mandates to the contrary com from the companies who write their checks. We've fallen into a malaise of disease management. Everybody dies, whether they want to or not. But everybody wants to live as long as they can. Each succeeding generation lives just a little longer than the last. The President of the US has to be 35 years old because that was the average lifespan of a colonial American man. Over 35 & you were considered an elder. Today's problem is that we all talk a bunch of health consciousness, but nobody wants to pay for it & we go out of our way to promote bad life choices. I'm pushing 60, never been in good shape, allergic to almost everything, smoke, live on twinkies & root beer, & I've never been admitted to a hospital. Gonna let me fall by the wayside because I don't meet the chart criteria?

I still don't know what this "place in line" thing's all about. I can't think of a single reason why there should be a "pecking order". You want to create competition, or shift it, between the consumers & patients? Isn't that what we already have?

[q1a2z3]

This whole mess is like renting an apartment in a building where the utilities are included in the rent. A group of bozos keep their heat turned up to 72 in the winter and their AC down to 72 in the summer. They take long showers. They flush a lot. In the case of health care some of these "bozos" actually need to do this because they are sick. This makes health care a tougher problem.

As for #4, If you go to Canada or England you can see the lines. People wait in line to get the treatment they need - the short line gets them diagnosed but that is just the beginning. Read Dick Lamb's book. Medical technology for the most part is additive in cost. Medical care will be rationed in any system that anyone will create. I'm just suggesting a system where the guilty get to pick up the check by being further back in line, and I'm trying to trying to reward people with a good spot in line by being good, and hoping that the absence of good people in line will allow those further back to get to the doctor sooner.


Number 8 was a JOKE on the death committee in the House plan. The House wants people over 60 to get counseled every 5 years on dying (aka reducing costs).

Assuming #3 is true, I say this is an excellent example of government regulation/meddling that needs to go away. The practices you describe are obviously insane (derivatives, etc...) and are like buying ant farms in South America.

Let's face it smoking, drinking, STDs, unsafe sex and other risky behaviour will result in demerits even in the House/Senate bills.

Again, those in government who support Obama failed to get him to create a plan that comes from the White House, and they should have set January of 2010 for the vote. Nothing in Government happens over night. I think most everyone on this board has a big distrust of the government - probably when King George II was in there. Whatever health care plan that is created for single payer needs to have the same checks and balances that keep the three pillars of government from falling on the people.

[hippifried]

The bigger the pool, the lower the unit cost. This whole thing could be solved easily enough by removing the age restriction from medicare.


If you go to Canada or England you can see the lines.You can see the lines here. It takes an hour or 2 to see a doctor in their office when you have an appointment. If you're stable at all, the average wait is 8 to 10 hours at an emergency room, & the only thing that gets in the way is triage. Elective surgery is scheduled 6 to 8 months in advance, & is subject to change. The only difference between here & there is the out of pocket expense.

The problem with the insurance industry mess wasn't caused by government regulation. It was caused by deregulation of fanancials. We didn't just stop guarding the henhouse. We opened the door & threw the fox in. A quick & simple solution is to lift the restrictions on the SEC & let them go back to doing what they're supposed to do. That's already been done to an extent, but auditing something as big as the financial & insurance markets is going to take time. Right now, everybody's busy trying to keep things from a cascading collapse.

There's lots of bad behavior. The biggest cause of death is heart disease, & the biggest culprit is the foods we eat. Diabetes is running rampant because of obesity & the massive intake of carbohydrates overwhelming natural insulin production. Ready to tell the kids they can't have a "Happy Meal" because they're too fat? The farmers around here would love it if people started eating more vegetables. But there's no personal "demerits" in any bill being contemplated. It's never even been brought up by anybody that has anything to do with actually writing the bills. If you think I'm wrong, show me.

I have a distrust of government, but I have even less trust in those who have no purpose other than lining their own pockets. This is a democratic republic. We ARE the government. Vigilence is desirable, but fear of the government in a democratic republic is fear of yourself. Who ya gonna trust? Yourself, or someone you have absolutely no control over whatsoever, like an insurance company?

[techi]

As for #4, If you go to Canada or England you can see the lines. People wait in line to get the treatment they need - the short line gets them diagnosed but that is just the beginning.


This is a blatant healthcare industry promoted lie, at least with regards to Canada. Over twenty of my cousins live in Canada, they've never had problems. And they don't know anyone who's even seen one of these mythical "healthcare lines".

In Canada, everyone pays for the healthcare via a VAT(on goods&services) and everyone receives service. People don't complain about the healthcare although I'll admit that some complain about the VAT, it's somewhere around 18%.

[Rogers]

As for #4, If you go to Canada or England you can see the lines. People wait in line to get the treatment they need - the short line gets them diagnosed but that is just the beginning.


This is a blatant healthcare industry promoted lie, at least with regards to Canada. Over twenty of my cousins live in Canada, they've never had problems. And they don't know anyone who's even seen one of these mythical "healthcare lines".

Meh, the politics of fear again...

Defending UK Healthcare John Pilger
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RhjcztvgLA

"President Obama gives Professor Stephen Hawkins the presidential medal of freedom. Some commentators, unaware of prof Hawkins nationality, had claimed he would have died if he was born in the UK."
http://www.politics.co.uk/news/health/unions-take-on-us-lies-over-nhs-$1319859.htm

[trish]

60% of bankruptcies in the U.S. are due to medical expenditures. 78% of those had health insurance and thought they were adequately covered.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/06/05/bankruptcy.medical.bills/

http://blearc.newsvine.com/_news/2009/07/25/3069384-78-percent-of-bankruptcy-filers-burdened-by-healthcare-expenses-had-health-insurance

[hippifried]

60% of bankruptcies in the U.S. are due to medical expenditures. 78% of those had health insurance and thought they were adequately covered.That's what's being claimed, but it's not exactly accurate. It's not so much the medical expenses. you can blow those off & stall for up to a year or 2 without totally wiping out your credit. It's the loss of income due to any kind of catastrophic illness or accident. You can't even draw disability unless you're permanently disabled, & even that's a massive cut in income. If you get sick or hurt, & can't work for a few months, kiss your house goodbye. Nobody covers that. Your mortgage insurance should cover it, but that's not how the policies are written up. They just cover the interest while the house gets sold out from under you. There aren't any mortgages anymore anyway. They've been shifted to trust deeds, & you probably don't even know who the trustee is. Everything is being run through insurance companies, & nobody's regulating the insurance industry higher than the state level.

Income is the key. As long as money is flowing through the consumer base, things work fine. But now, it's all being sucked out of the economy by hedge bets, & they don't pay off. The hedge bets keep getting hedged & hedged again until nobody knows who's supposed to pay whom over what. The whole insurance industry is a ripoff. They're taking, or have taken control of nearly every other industry, & they're welching on the bets. The healthcare mess is a blatant example. They need to be taken out of the loop. This whole issue has gotten so convoluted that we're just being sold another insurance policy.

[hippifried]

60% of bankruptcies in the U.S. are due to medical expenditures. 78% of those had health insurance and thought they were adequately covered.That's what's being claimed, but it's not exactly accurate. It's not so much the medical expenses. you can blow those off & stall for up to a year or 2 without totally wiping out your credit. It's the loss of income due to any kind of catastrophic illness or accident. You can't even draw disability unless you're permanently disabled, & even that's a massive cut in income. If you get sick or hurt, & can't work for a few months, kiss your house goodbye. Nobody covers that. Your mortgage insurance should cover it, but that's not how the policies are written up. They just cover the interest while the house gets sold out from under you. There aren't any mortgages anymore anyway. They've been shifted to trust deeds, & you probably don't even know who the trustee is. Everything is being run through insurance companies, & nobody's regulating the insurance industry higher than the state level.

Income is the key. As long as money is flowing through the consumer base, things work fine. But now, it's all being sucked out of the economy by hedge bets, & they don't pay off. The hedge bets keep getting hedged & hedged again until nobody knows who's supposed to pay whom over what. The whole insurance industry is a ripoff. They're taking, or have taken control of nearly every other industry, & they're welching on the bets. The healthcare mess is a blatant example. They need to be taken out of the loop. This whole issue has gotten so convoluted that we're just being sold another insurance policy.

[hippifried]

60% of bankruptcies in the U.S. are due to medical expenditures. 78% of those had health insurance and thought they were adequately covered.Yeah, but the biggest culprit isn't the medical expenses themselves. A catostrophic illness or injury keeps you from working. You can't draw unemployment. There's no disability income unless it's permanent. If you're out of work for a few months, they're selling your house out from under you by the time you get back on your feet. If you recover, you're wiped out financially. Nobody covers this. Ain't that special.

Our entire economy is getting filtered through insurance schemes nowadays, & they're welching on the hedge bets. They're parasitic in nature & don't produce anything. There's no reason for them to be in control of the healthcare industry at all. The insurance industry needs to be taken out of the loop. This whole debate has gotten so convoluted that everybody's just trying to sell us another insurance policy.

[hippifried]

60% of bankruptcies in the U.S. are due to medical expenditures. 78% of those had health insurance and thought they were adequately covered.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/06/05/bankruptcy.medical.bills/

http://blearc.newsvine.com/_news/2009/07/25/3069384-78-percent-of-bankruptcy-filers-burdened-by-healthcare-expenses-had-health-insuranceNot totally accurate, Trish. The biggest culprit in all that is the loss of income that comes with any kind of catastrophic illness or injury. Nobody covers it. You can't draw unemployment. You can't fault your employer for replacing you if you're going to be gone for a while. If you end up out of work for a few months, you're broke. You can't draw disability unless it's permanent, & even that's a major income cut. If you recover, you're wiped out financially. Ain't that special.

[hippifried]

Wow! Something happened & sent me into "debug" mode. Sorry.

[q1a2z3]

60% of bankruptcies in the U.S. are due to medical expenditures. 78% of those had health insurance and thought they were adequately covered.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/06/05/bankruptcy.medical.bills/

http://blearc.newsvine.com/_news/2009/07/25/3069384-78-percent-of-bankruptcy-filers-burdened-by-healthcare-expenses-had-health-insurance


Even if your medical bills are paid that does not mean your employer is going to keep paying you even though you are sick. Therefore losing your house is also tied to a lack of savings on the part of most people and not their health insurance. Should health care protect against bankruptcy?


On another topic, if the government owns the mortgage company who owns your house (after all you are only paying for it over time) can the government place another family in their house until you own it? If you are behind in your property taxes can they place another family in it then?
Just wondering why this hasn't been used yet to battle homelessness.


Just trying to find the bottom of the nightmare...

[techi]

On another topic, if the government owns the mortgage company who owns your house (after all you are only paying for it over time) can the government place another family in their house until you own it? If you are behind in your property taxes can they place another family in it then?
Just wondering why this hasn't been used yet to battle homelessness.


Just trying to find the bottom of the nightmare...

Your housing example sort of hightlights the very odd problems in our system: A lack of scarcity.

There's not a lack of housing in America. In fact, if anything we have overbuilt our housing. People aren't homeless because of a housing shortage.

And the same goes for food and manufactured products... no shortage. If anything, over capacity.

Over capacity of lawyers? Yep :lol:

Over capacity of unemployed people that want jobs? Yep

[hippifried]

The government doesn't own your mortgage. They're not holding the paper. They're just guarenteeing the loan under their programs. There's no real mortgages anymore anyway. They're deeds of trust. The loan is carved up & you make the payment to a contracted collection agent. The trustee is some local lawyer. You don't actually own any of it until it's all paid off. It's a convoluted mess & all the rules were written by the real estate & mortgage brokers, who are now one & the same. Ain't that special.

[q1a2z3]

The government doesn't own your mortgage. They're not holding the paper. They're just guarenteeing the loan under their programs. There's no real mortgages anymore anyway. They're deeds of trust. The loan is carved up & you make the payment to a contracted collection agent. The trustee is some local lawyer. You don't actually own any of it until it's all paid off. It's a convoluted mess & all the rules were written by the real estate & mortgage brokers, who are now one & the same. Ain't that special.

Quit confusing the issues with facts. I was kinda expecting someone would like the idea doubling up people in my house and everyone elses for that matter. In Cuba it's illegal to NOT pickup hitchhikers.

[techi]

I was kinda expecting someone would like the idea doubling up people in my house and everyone elses for that matter. In Cuba it's illegal to NOT pickup hitchhikers.

There is one way that doubling up would make sense as a solution. Start housing homeless people in the mansions of bank CEO's.... we'd have our housing problem solved in days!

I can just imagine the look on Ken Lewis's face when he returned home to meet his new housemates.
www.nypost.com/seven/01082009/photos/bus0g.jpg