racial profiling of famous man,Scholar’s arrest is a signpos

[natina]

Scholar’s arrest is a signpost on road to equality

Case signals there’s ‘nothing post-racial’ about U.S., colleague of Gates says

VIDEO

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/32061094#32061094

It took less than a day for the arrest of Henry Louis Gates to become racial lore. When one of America's most prominent black intellectuals winds up in handcuffs, it's not just another episode of profiling — it's a signpost on the nation's bumpy road to equality.

The news was parsed and Tweeted, rued and debated. This was, after all Henry "Skip" Gates: Summa cum laude and Phi Beta Kappa graduate of Yale. MacArthur "genius grant" recipient. Acclaimed historian, Harvard professor and PBS documentarian. One of Time magazine's "25 Most Influential Americans" in 1997. Holder of 50 honorary degrees.

If this man can be taken away by police officers from the porch of his own home, what does it say about the treatment that average blacks can expect in 2009?

Earl Graves Jr., CEO of the company that publishes Black Enterprise magazine, was once stopped by police during his train commute to work, dressed in a suit and tie.

"My case took place back in 1995, and here we are 14 years later dealing with the same madness," he said Tuesday. "Barack Obama being the president has meant absolutely nothing to white law enforcement officers. Zero. So I have zero confidence that (Gates' case) will lead to any change whatsoever."

The 58-year-old professor had returned from a trip to China last Thursday afternoon and found the front door of his Cambridge, Mass., home stuck shut. Gates entered the back door, forced open the front door with help from a car service driver, and was on the phone with the Harvard leasing company when a white police sergeant arrived.

Racial profiling?
Gates and the sergeant gave differing accounts of what happened next. But for many people, that doesn't matter.

They don't care that Gates was charged not with breaking and entering, but with disorderly conduct after repeatedly demanding the sergeant's name and badge number. It doesn't matter whether Gates was yelling, or accused Sgt. James Crowley of being racist, or that all charges were dropped Tuesday.

All they see is pure, naked racial profiling.

"Under any account ... all of it is totally uncalled for," said Graves.

"It never would have happened — imagine a white professor, a distinguished white professor at Harvard, walking around with a cane, going into his own house, being harassed or stopped by the police. It would never happen."

Racial profiling became a national issue in the 1990s, when highway police on major drug delivery routes were accused of stopping drivers simply for being black. Lawsuits were filed, studies were commissioned, data was analyzed. "It is wrong, and we will end it in America," President George W. Bush said in 2001.

Yet for every study that concluded police disproportionately stop, search and arrest minorities, another expert came to a different conclusion. "That's always going to be the case," Greg Ridgeway, who has a Ph.D in statistics and studies racial profiling for the RAND research group, said on Monday. "You're never going to be able to (statistically) prove racial profiling. ... There's always a plausible explanation."


Earl Graves Jr., CEO of the company that publishes Black Enterprise magazine, was once stopped by police during his train commute to work, dressed in a suit and tie.

"My case took place back in 1995, and here we are 14 years later dealing with the same madness," he said Tuesday. "Barack Obama being the president has meant absolutely nothing to white law enforcement officers. Zero. So I have zero confidence that (Gates' case) will lead to any change whatsoever."

The 58-year-old professor had returned from a trip to China last Thursday afternoon and found the front door of his Cambridge, Mass., home stuck shut. Gates entered the back door, forced open the front door with help from a car service driver, and was on the phone with the Harvard leasing company when a white police sergeant arrived.

Racial profiling?
Gates and the sergeant gave differing accounts of what happened next. But for many people, that doesn't matter.

They don't care that Gates was charged not with breaking and entering, but with disorderly conduct after repeatedly demanding the sergeant's name and badge number. It doesn't matter whether Gates was yelling, or accused Sgt. James Crowley of being racist, or that all charges were dropped Tuesday.

All they see is pure, naked racial profiling.

"Under any account ... all of it is totally uncalled for," said Graves.

"It never would have happened — imagine a white professor, a distinguished white professor at Harvard, walking around with a cane, going into his own house, being harassed or stopped by the police. It would never happen."

Racial profiling became a national issue in the 1990s, when highway police on major drug delivery routes were accused of stopping drivers simply for being black. Lawsuits were filed, studies were commissioned, data was analyzed. "It is wrong, and we will end it in America," President George W. Bush said in 2001.

Yet for every study that concluded police disproportionately stop, search and arrest minorities, another expert came to a different conclusion. "That's always going to be the case," Greg Ridgeway, who has a Ph.D in statistics and studies racial profiling for the RAND research group, said on Monday. "You're never going to be able to (statistically) prove racial profiling. ... There's always a plausible explanation."


Click for related content
The Grio opinion: Gates' case is not clear cut
Discuss Gates' case on Newsvine

Federal legislation to ban racial profiling has languished since being introduced in 2007 by a dozen Democratic senators, including then-Sen. Barack Obama.

U.S. Rep. Danny Davis, D-Ill., said that was partly because "when you look at statistics, and you're trying to prove the extent, the information comes back that there's not nearly as much (profiling) as we continue to experience."

But Davis has no doubt that profiling is real: He says he was stopped while driving in Chicago in 2007 for no reason other than the fact he is black. Police gave him a ticket for swerving over the center line; a judge said the ticket didn't make sense and dismissed it.

"Trying to reach this balance of equity, equal treatment, equal protection under the law, equal understanding, equal opportunity, is something that we will always be confronted with. We may as well be prepared for it," he said.

'Tumultuous' behavior
Amid the indignation over Gates' case, a few people pointed out that he may have violated the cardinal rule of avoiding arrest: Do not antagonize the cops.

The police report said that Gates yelled at the officer, refused to calm down and behaved in a "tumultuous" manner. Gates said he simply asked for the officer's identification, followed him into his porch when the information was not forthcoming, and was arrested for no reason. But something about being asked to prove that you live in your own home clearly struck a nerve — both for Gates and his defenders.

"You feel violated, embarrassed, not sure what is taking place, especially when you haven't done anything," said Graves of his own experience, when police made him face the wall and frisked him in Grand Central Station in New York City. "You feel shocked, then you realize what's happening, and then you feel it's a violation of everything you stand for."

And that this should happen to "Skip" Gates — the unblemished embodiment of President Obama's recent admonition to black America not to search for handouts or favors, but to "seize our own future, each and every day" — shook many people to the core.

Wrote Lawrence Bobo, Gates' Harvard colleague, who picked his friend up from jail: "Ain't nothing post-racial about the United States of America."

Jesse Washington covers race and ethnicity for The Associated Press.



http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32077998/ns/us_news-race_and_ethnicity/?GT1=43001

VIDEO

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/32061094#32061094

http://msnbcmedia2.msn.com/j/ap/0fb799e5-24bc-46dd-ab7b-a290713aec51.h2.jpg


http://msnbcmedia4.msn.com/j/MSNBC/Components/Video/__NEW/nn_04taibbi_gates_090721.vsmall.jpg

[notdrunk]

One of his neighbors called the police on a possible breaking and entering. The police have to investigate if a crime is possibly in progress. Gates' attitude towards the officer caused this mess. Gates tried to make something out of nothing and succeeded.

[techi]

Gates was being an idiot by trying to be clever with the cops. Cops don't do clever.

Gates should have just cooperated and then called contacts at Harvard to give the police chief a beatdown after the fact.

It also could have been worse, the police could have blown the front door off it's hinges, shot the family dog, bodyslammed grandma and then checked the man for id! :shock:

[trish]

We do not know what transpired within Gates’ home. We do not know why Gates’ was upset with the officer. One would presume the officer did or said something that was either inappropriate or perceived by Gates as inappropriate. Police officers should not react personally to allegations of citizens. Good police officers will diffuse these sorts of confrontations. This one either couldn’t or didn’t want to. Gates was arrested for disorderly conduct, a charge that could not be brought within the walls of his own home. But Gates followed the officer onto the front yard where he continued to express his dissatisfaction with the officer. In this public setting the officer thought he could make the charge of disorderly conduct stick. The police commissioner correctly thought otherwise. The officer was just being an idiot. If the uniform commands respect, then so does the attire worn by everyday citizens.

[hippifried]

Why can't we all just get a long...neck?

[beandip]

Gates is a whining cunt and needs to STFU.

Refusing to provide police officers with ID, EVEN in your own home will get you arrested.

http://www.myfoxboston.com/dpp/news/local/henry_louis_gates_arrest_reports_062109

[hippifried]

First of all: This isn't aparthied South Africa. We don't have internal passports in America. Nobody's required to produce identification on demand, or even carry any.

That said, secondly: He did produce identification. He showed his campus identification, & his identity was confirmed by the campus police.

Finally: The entire altrcation leading up to the arrest happened across the threshhold of the front door. He was arrested when he finally stepped out onto the porch. The charge was disorderly conduct. That's going to be a pretty hard sell. How can your conduct be disorderly inside your own home?

The police are in the confrontation business. That's what they do. That's what all their training is about. I don't know what was said & don't care. A trained police officer needs to maintain his calm. If a situation gets out of hand, you call for backup, even if it's just so cooler heads can prevail. The hotheads & amateurs need to be weeded out.

[trish]

Beandip, you didn't even read the link you yourself provided. As hippiefried mentioned above, the arrest was not for failure to provide ID (which Professor Gates did in fact provide, though the report declines to reference the fact, and did not have to provide) but for disorderly conduct; i.e. contradicting a police officer in the "public area" of his own doorway in front of witnesses. The officer was taking Professor Gates' expression of dissatisfaction way too personally (which is to say, non-professionally). The officer was outraged and embarrassed. So in front of those astounded witnesses, he arrested Gates for the trumped up charge of disorderly conduct. The prosecutor agreed it was an unprofessional and inappropriate arrest.

The whining cunts are those cowards at Fox who, goaded by their fear of uppity people of color, uploaded the arrest warrant against Professor Gates. Why? I'm sure the Boston Police Department wishes the arrest was never made. The prosecutor dropped the charge. They're all hoping Gates won't sue. So what do the bigots at Fox have to gain by posting the link? Answer: They get to disrespect an uppity internationally reknown black man by posting his mug shots in a police report that should never have been filed in the first place. Oh that's not racism, that just being racist cunts.

I'm sure that you, beanship, will lick the ass of any policeman who bursts into your home and asks for ID. Probably suck his dick too. But then, nobody here expects anything more from you?

[hungbrandonfan]

Unbelieveable spin.

Obama the great speaker obviously fucked up by trying to make this into a racial incident and prejudging the situation. He just can't resist putting his .02 cents into the situation because of his personal ties and bias to Gates.

And this is going to bite Obama in the ass big time just when he needs credibility the most. As a black man, i'm tired of the Sharptons etc turning everthing into race and dividing black and white. I surely didnt vote for this and definately will be voting independent party...Barbara Boxer and now Obama stirring the pot in the black community...Democrats have found a new low

[trish]

Hello there hungbrandonfan.


I surely didnt vote for this ...
I think most would interpret this as meaning you did indeed vote for Obama, but not for the divisiveness engendered by this recent comment. I heard of single issue voters before. But your future vote is already decided on the basis of one comment? Not an issue? Not a domestic policy decision? Not economic performance? Not foreign policy issues? It was this off the cuff answer to a reporter’s question that changed your mind? It’s difficult to believe you voted for Obama the first time around. Are you sure you’re not pulling someone’s leg?

[techi]

Even if a police officer is breaking the law/violating your rights... it's never a good idea to be over confrontational with the police on the scene. Best thing to do is file a complaint or sue them after the fact.

Harvard can lay down a world of hurt on the police if they do not correct thier officers behavior.

Things like the following concern me far more because they are unfixable:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXqGT74vBKk

[tsbrenda]

OK OK HERE ARE THE FACTS GATES PROVIDED THE ID WITHOUT ANY

ISSUE IT WAS THE POLICE INSISTENCE THAT GATES STEP OUTSIDE WHICH CAUSED THE ISSUES.

GATES REFUSED TO STEP OUTSIDE AFTER THE OFFICER SEEN THE iD and verified that it was his home. the officer claim that he wanted to make sure no suspects were in the house


the story was just clarified on the news about what happen

by INSIDE EDITION and GATES AND POLICE OFFICER CROWLEY


this is bullshit the police allways tell these perfect stories if you belive them. thats to stop all the lawsuits


http://www.hungangels.com/board/files/0fb799e5_24bc_46dd_ab7b_a290_199.jpg

[notdrunk]

OK OK HERE ARE THE FACTS GATES PROVIDED THE ID WITHOUT ANY

ISSUE IT WAS THE POLICE INSISTENCE THAT GATES STEP OUTSIDE WHICH CAUSED THE ISSUES.

GATES REFUSED TO STEP OUTSIDE AFTER THE OFFICER SEEN THE iD and verified that it was his home. the officer claim that he wanted to make sure no suspects were in the house


According to the incident report, Gates followed Crowley outside because he wanted to get Crowley's information. Even Gates admitted that he followed Crowley outside asking him repeatedly for his information. So...huh?

[El Nino]

If I may chime in here for a second... Ok, well it is clear that corporate mainstream media is swallowing this story up and turning it into a race based issue (again). At least that is a primary angle of the story that they are spewing out. Here's the deal wit THAT. They are skirting around the MAIN ISSUE and not talking about it at all. That is, the fact that we live in a friggin police state and if anybody is aware and knowledgable of their Civil Rights (apparently this guy was, as he stood up for himself) they will get bullied around and charged with something (anything that they can throw at you, actually). The Constitutional Rights this guy was presenting the police with, got shit and pissed on and flushed down the toilet about 9 years ago, thanks to 9/11. Most people aren't even aware of their Rights, and this is the sad part. Once again, this story is not a race based issue people; it's totalitarianism. You won't here the media talk about this either. Dr. King Jr. spoke of this very concept though and look where it got him!?!

[techi]

The Constitutional Rights this guy was presenting the police with, got shit and pissed on and flushed down the toilet about 9 years ago, thanks to 9/11. Most people aren't even aware of their Rights, and this is the sad part. Once again, this story is not a race based issue people; it's totalitarianism. You won't here the media talk about this either. Dr. King Jr. spoke of this very concept though and look where it got him!?!

Yeah, there's no doubt that the Patriot Act flushed our rights down the toilet. I'm not surprised but I am still disapointed that the Obama administration hasn't started peeling away the Patriot Act. Indefinite detention would be my first target.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indefinite_detention

9/11 = Reichstag fire
Patriot Act = Reichstag Fire Decree

Oh and... our Terrorist Watch List has over a million people on it now. Most of the names on the list are joe shmoe Americans who's only crime is pissing off the wrong government official.

http://www.aclu.org/privacy/spying/watchlistcounter.html

[tsbrenda]

The Henry Louis Gates situation is mainly a distraction, where the media has decided to document a sideshow instead of the hundreds of millions of people struggling every day with substandard health care coverage.

But there's also a serious policy component. Policemen should not be allowed to arrest someone for being an asshole in their own home. If that was the case, right-wing bloggers would all be doing 10-20. It appears clear, and I guess there may be audio tape to this effect, that the cop came to Gates' house, figured out that he was not a burglar, words were exchanged, and then the cop arrested him for disorderly conduct. That's really over the line of what cops should be allowed to do, regardless of the motivations, racial or otherwise.

The crime of disorderly conduct, beloved by cops who get into arguments with citizens, requires that the public be involved. Here's the relevant law from the Massachusetts Appeals Court, with citations and quotations omitted:

The statute authorizing prosecutions for disorderly conduct, G.L. c. 272, § 53, has been saved from constitutional infirmity by incorporating the definition of "disorderly" contained in § 250.2(1)(a) and (c) of the Model Penal Code. The resulting definition of "disorderly" includes only those individuals who, "with purpose to cause public inconvenience, annoyance or alarm, or recklessly creating a risk thereof ... (a) engage in fighting or threatening, or in violent or tumultuous behavior; or ... (c) create a hazardous or physically offensive condition by any act which serves no legitimate purpose of the actor.' "Public" is defined as affecting or likely to affect persons in a place to which the public or a substantial group has access.


The lesson most cops understand (apart from the importance of using the word "tumultuous," which features prominently in Crowley's report) is that a person cannot violate 272/53 by yelling in his own home.

Read Crowley's report and stop on page two when he admits seeing Gates's Harvard photo ID. I don't care what Gates had said to him up until then, Crowley was obligated to leave. He had identified Gates. Any further investigation of Gates' right to be present in the house could have been done elsewhere. His decision to call HUPD seems disproportionate, but we could give him points for thoroughness if he had made that call from his car while keeping an eye on the house. Had a citizen refused to leave Gates' home after being told to, the cops could have made an arrest for trespass.

But for the sake of education, let's watch while Crowley makes it worse. Read on. He's staying put in Gates' home, having been asked to leave, and Gates is demanding his identification. What does Crowley do? He suggests that if Gates wants his name and badge number, he'll have to come outside to get it. What? Crowley may be forgiven for the initial approach and questioning, but surely he should understand that a citizen will be miffed at being questioned about his right to be in his own home. Perhaps Crowley could commit the following sentences to memory: "I'm sorry for disturbing you," and "I'm glad you're all right."

Spoiling for a fight, Crowley refuses to repeat his name and badge number. Most of us would hand over a business card or write the information on a scrap of paper. No, Crowley is upset and he's mad at Gates. He's been accused of racism. Nobody likes that, but if a cop can't take an insult without retaliating, he's in the wrong job. When a person is given a gun and a badge, we better make sure he's got a firm grasp on his temper. If Crowley had called Gates a name, I'd be disappointed in him, but Crowley did something much worse. He set Gates up for a criminal charge to punish Gates for his own embarrassment.

By telling Gates to come outside, Crowley establishes that he has lost all semblance of professionalism. It has now become personal and he wants to create a violation of 272/53. He gets Gates out onto the porch because a crowd has gathered providing onlookers who could experience alarm. Note his careful recitation (tumultuous behavior outside the residence in view of the public). And please do not overlook Crowley's final act of provocation. He tells an angry citizen to calm down while producing handcuffs. The only plausible question for the chief to ask about that little detail is: "Are you stupid, or do you think I'm stupid?" Crowley produced those handcuffs to provoke Gates and then arrested him. The decision to arrest is telling. If Crowley believed the charge was valid, he could have issued a summons. An arrest under these circumstances shows his true intent: to humiliate Gates.

The cop baited the guy into leaving the house so he could arrest him for making a cop feel bad.

I appreciate the work of law enforcement. But regardless of race, too many cops have the belief that if they get insulted, they have the right to turn that into an arresting offense. That's not the law whatsoever, nor should it be. It creates a chilling effect among the public not to call out bad behavior in law enforcement or raise your voice in any way. I know we're all supposed to believe that cops are saintly, but I live in LA. Police misconduct happens all the time, and we should be vigilant when it does.

Instead, the media takes the soccer ball and chases it into the corner, without any semblance of factual records or perspective. It becomes an emotional argument instead of a factual record of misconduct. We pay cops with tax money. We should not risk arrest when arguing with them.

Tags: Henry Louis Gates, law enforcement, police misconduct, Prosecutions, race, traditional media

http://crooksandliars.com/dday/actual-facts-about-henry-louis-gates-case

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Sz83qFFwJP4/RardYHFl0XI/AAAAAAAAAE4/YTHWXmIAcPs/s400/ScaliaAndCheneyShootingDucks.gif

http://www.hungangels.com/board/files/0fb799e5_24bc_46dd_ab7b_a290_199.jpg

[q1a2z3]

When a cop is confronted with an irate, old person he/she most likely needs to ask him/her to sit down, take a breath and calm down. When a suspect is not a physical threat then you could give the guy some slack.

There were at least five episodes of "My Three Sons" where Steve Douglas was taken to the police station for not having his identification. He never once went nuts on the cops.

I once had a cop tell me that by taillight was broken. I told him I would get it fixed in the morning and did he know a good place to get it fixed at. The light was not broken. It's amazing how well everything goes when you use "yes sir", " no sir" , etc... when dealing with the police.

[tsbrenda]

DID YOU NOT SEE THE PHOTO OF GATES WITH HANCUFFS ON ON HIS PORCH?


DUH YOURSELF!

http://www.hungangels.com/board/files/0fb799e5_24bc_46dd_ab7b_a290_199.jpg

DID YOU NOT SEE THE PHOTO OF GATES WITH HANCUFFS ON ON HIS PORCH?


DUH YOURSELF!

DID YOU NOT SEE THE PHOTO OF GATES WITH HANCUFFS ON ON HIS PORCH?


DUH YOURSELF!


DID YOU NOT SEE THE PHOTO OF GATES WITH HANCUFFS ON ON HIS PORCH?


DUH YOURSELF!

http://www.hungangels.com/board/files/0fb799e5_24bc_46dd_ab7b_a290_199.jpg



OK OK HERE ARE THE FACTS GATES PROVIDED THE ID WITHOUT ANY

ISSUE IT WAS THE POLICE INSISTENCE THAT GATES STEP OUTSIDE WHICH CAUSED THE ISSUES.

GATES REFUSED TO STEP OUTSIDE AFTER THE OFFICER SEEN THE iD and verified that it was his home. the officer claim that he wanted to make sure no suspects were in the house


According to the incident report, Gates followed Crowley outside because he wanted to get Crowley's information. Even Gates admitted that he followed Crowley outside asking him repeatedly for his information. So...huh?

[notdrunk]

You need to simmer down. After Crowley repeatedly warned Gates to calm down on the porch, Crowley arrested him for failing to do so. Even the black police officer that was there watching the incident (probably the officer in the arrest photo) agreed that Gates should of been arrested for his conduct on the porch.

[notdrunk]

Ok, I think I misinterpreted tsbrenda post or not... :shock:

[hippifried]

You can't order someone to calm down. It's a suggestion at best, especially in someone's own home. (Oh & by the way, "own home" refers to the property up to the public easement or commons.) It's up to the police to remain calm. That goes farther to quell the confrontation than anything.

This happens all the time. Rudeness takes hold of the situation, & the police haul somebody off to do an overnight in the tank to teach them a lesson or diffuse an altercation between more than one person. I think the racial aspect of this is overblown & media driven. I can't & therefore refuse to brand this incident as racial profiling. The problem is that this happens all the time.

Another problem is that American society has downplayed the importance of polite discourse in favor of reactionary one-upmanship. Political correctness isn't an avoidance of truth. It's a technique to avoid anger in the public debate. There's been a public attack on being polite for the past 3 decades. A complaint about rude behavior is attacked as being a violation of free speech rights. You can be honest without being rude, but you'd never know it listening to the reactionary discourse in the society.

Crowley acted stupidly by arresting Gates. Gates acted stupidly by baiting Crowley. The other cops acted stupidly by refusing to step in & diffuse the situation. The President acted stupidly by assuming the press would understand the language that pays their bills, & have a clue how adverbs work.

[natina]

Gatesgate

by digby

I have been reluctant to really delve into the Gates story because well ... it just seems so obvious. And it's clear that it's just taking the wingnut bait. But since I write often about police abuse of power, particularly with tasers, some readers seem to be interested in a larger discussion of this incident so here goes.

First, I think that there is obviously a racial component here, but I don't see it as classic "profiling" at least in the traditional sense that someone is targeted for a police stop solely because of their race. The circumstance as I understand them are that the police responded to a call of a possible burglary with two black suspects. The idea that they wouldn't have responded to that call if the description had been two white suspects is not believable. It's what happened after that fits the racial narrative.
One racial component is the reflexive angry defensiveness that white people often feel at being called racist when they don't believe (rightly or wrongly) that they are. This cop, a man who we are told teaches other cops how to avoid racial profiling, may have felt he was being unfairly targeted as a racist and he got angry. The "angry black man" syndrome, whereby blacks' sensibilities in such situations are discounted as being a "chip on the shoulder" or somehow a function of an inherently angry temperament adds to the mix. Black people are assumed to be "dangerous" in situations where whites get the benefit of the doubt. I really don't think that's debatable.

Having said that, to me, this situation actually has far broader implications about all citizens' relationship to the police and the way we are expected to respond to authority, regardless of race. I've watched too many taser videos over the past few years featuring people of all races and both genders being put to the ground screaming in pain, not because they were dangerous or threatening and not because they were so out of control there was no other way to deal with them, but because they were arguing with police and the officer perceived a lack of respect for the badge.

I have discovered that my hackles automatically going up at such authoritarian behavior is not necessarily the common reaction among my fellow Americans, not even my fellow liberals. The arguments are usually something along the lines of "that guy was an idiot to argue with the cops, he should know better," which is very similar to what many are saying about Gates. He has even been criticized for being a "bad role model," thus putting young black kids at risk if they do the same things.

Now, on a practical, day to day level, it's hard to argue that being argumentative with a cop is a dangerous thing. They have guns. They can arrest you and can cost you your freedom if they want to do it badly enough. They can often get away with doing violence on you and suffer no consequences. You are taking a risk if you provoke someone with that kind of power, no doubt about it.

Indeed, it is very little different than exercising your right of free speech to tell a gang of armed thugs to go fuck themselves. It's legal, but it's not very smart. But that's the problem isn't it? We shouldn't have to make the same calculations about how to behave with police as we would with armed criminals. The police are supposed to be the good guys who follow the rules and the law and don't expect innocent citizens to bow to their brute power the same way that a street gang would do. The police are not supposed wield what is essentially brute force on the entire population.

And yet, that's what we are told we are supposed to accept. Not only can they arrest us merely for being argumentative as they did with Gates, they are now allowed to shoot us full of electricity to make us comply with their demands to submit.

There is a philosophical underpinning to all this that I am only beginning to fully understand. It was discussed in this very interesting guest post over at Crooked Timber by a police officer and philosopher who went through the various elements of the case and offered his perspective. Much of what he wrote was very thought provoking and made me think a bit about my reflexive recoil against police behaviors in so many of these situations. But some of what he wrote reinforced my belief that something has gone wrong:


The judgments of policing are obviously difficult and subjective, and are often marred when they are made in the face of people issuing inflammatory comments even as the police are rendering routine services with an obvious cause. It is in the collective interest of citizens and police to promote an environment where the police can conduct an investigation calmly and with mutual respect. It cannot become commonplace for people to be allowed to scream at the police in public, threatening them with political phone calls, deriding their abilities, etc. Routine acts like rendering aid to lost children, taking accident reports and issuing traffic violations could be derailed at any time by any person who has a perceived grievance with the police. The police service environment is not the best venue for the airing of such grievances.


This is a form of blackmail similar to the CIA threatening to let terrorists kill us if they are held accountable for lawbreaking. It says that the police will not be willing to rescue lost children if they have to put up with yelling citizens. That is an abdication of their duties and the idea that they should then be given carte blanche to shut up all citizens by means of arrest, because it creates a social environment where someone might cause a distraction in the future, is Orwellian double talk.

And it makes a mockery of the first amendment. If police are to be shielded from public criticism when they are acting in their official capacity then we have an authoritarian state. If yelling at the authorities is a crime then we do not have free speech.

He goes on:


The police should not be cowed by threats of phone calls to people such as mayors, police chiefs and presidents of the United States, along with allegations that “you don’t know who you’re messing with.” It is traditionally whites who have had this type of crooked access and influence. These appeals to higher authorities are often meant to exempt the ruling castes from following the rules and laws that the rest of the community will be expected to follow. It happens, it is unfortunate, and it is not in the interests of justice for it to continue. Nobody trying to do their job fairly deserves to hear the equivalent of “My daddy donated fifty million to this university, and you’ll be getting calls from everywhere in the administration about raising my grade enough for this class to count as a distributive requirement.”


It is very rude of citizens to do that, to be sure. But it is not a crime. The idea that people should not get angry, should not pull rank, should be rude to others is an issue for sociologists and Miss Manners, not the cops. Humans often behave badly, but that doesn't make it illegal. For people with such tremendous power as police officers to be coddled into thinking that these are behaviors that allow them to arrest people (or worse) seems to be to far more dangerous than allowing a foolish person or two to set a bad example in the public square.

He continues:


It is possible for a person to commit disorderly conduct by unabated screaming and verbal abuse in a public setting. Without drawing conclusions about the Gates case, there comes some point where a person is genuinely causing public alarm, and where he is acting with a rage that exceeds what we can expect from a reasonable person in a heated moment. The mere presence of the police conducting a legitimate investigation should not provoke continuous rage and epithets from such a person. One response is that the police should just leave if the investigation has been conducted successfully, and that this will calm the person down. In practice, this is indeed often the best thing to do. On the other hand, it should be noted that it is just as much the responsibility of the citizen to see that his actions are an inappropriate way to relate to police officers who have not, in the specific case at hand, acted unreasonably. This point may be hotly contested, but I believe it is true: there is no obligation for the police to hurry in their activities or to leave as soon as possible because they have incited the rage of a person who is acting unreasonably. There is a distinction between hanging around to show them who’s boss and working at a steady, professional pace, to be sure. But in the end the mere presence of the police cannot be seen as an acceptable reason for disorderly conduct, and should therefore not spur the police to leave a scene simply to de-escalate it. A police strategy of “winning by appearing to lose” emboldens citizens to attempt to get the police to lose in more and more serious matters, including walking away from situations where a person is genuinely guilty of a crime.


At this point we are seeing a tipping in the other direction. Police are emboldened when they repeatedly get away with using bullying, abusive tactics against average citizens who have not been convicted of any crimes. This is the kind of thing that results:


Police say they struggled to get inside the home to speak with the man. When police managed to get inside the home, the suspect was placed in handcuffs. The complainant alleged that he was Tased three times by police - once to his wrist, the second to the small of his back and the third to his buttocks.

The ombudsman's report states that the suspect was tased only two times after an investigation. One of those tases, however, was in the buttocks.

The use of force "was after he was handcuffed," said Ombudsman Pierce Murphy. "And it was in the most senstive, private areas, and accompanied by threats."

The suspect can be heard pleading to the police several times that he couldn't breathe when officers were on top of him.

"I can't breathe - just let me up, I want to breathe," he says.

The officer quickly replied, "If you're talking - you're breathing."

The report also states that the officers used excessive language.

"If you move again, I'm going to stick this Taser up your (expletive) and pull the trigger," the complaint said. "Now, do you feel this in your (expletive)? - I'm going to tase your (expletive) if you move again."


It was determined that the cop had the taser literally pushed up against the man's anus.

In an earlier portion of his essay on Crooked Timber, the officer talked about how we need to allow police to have discretion and explained that it works as often as not in the favor of the suspect as a matter of common sense. (Police often let people go with a warning, for instance, rather than adhere strictly to the letter of the law.) And that's reasonable.

But when it comes to race we've got a terrible history of discretion not being extended in favor of blacks --- and the increased use of tasers is turning this concept of discretion into a license to torture. A policeman using his discretion to arrest a man in his own home because he was not deferential enough is just one more incident along a long road of creeping authoritarianism.

I said the other night that I thought Gates was lucky he didn't get tased and I really think he was. People all over this country are "subdued" by means of electricity every day, probably more blacks than whites, but it doesn't seem to be particularly limited to race. We are accepting this kind of thing as if it's just an inevitability because of the attitudes this police officer very thoughtfully lays out in his essay: we are told that we must defer to authority or risk all hell breaking loose.

And I would suggest that it is just that attitude that led to people in this country recently endorsing unilateral illegal invasions, torture of prisoners and the rest. You remember the line --- "the constitution isn't a suicide pact." To which many of us replied with the old Benjamin Franklin quote: "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."

The principles here are the same. Sure, we should treat the cops with respect and society shouldn't encourage people to be reflexively hostile to police. They have a tough job, and we should all be properly respectful of people who are doing a dangerous and necessary job for the community. But when a citizen doesn't behave well, if not illegally, as will happen in a free society, it is incumbent upon the police, the ones with the tasers and the handcuffs and the guns, to exercise discretion wisely and professionally. And when they don't, we shouldn't make excuses for them. It's far more corrosive to society to allow authority figures to abuse their power than the other way around.

Henry Louis Gates may have acted like a jackass in his house that day. But Sergeant Crowley arresting him for being "tumultuous" was an abuse of his discretion, a fact which is backed up by the fact that the District Attorney used his discretion to decline to prosecute. Racially motivated or not he behaved "stupidly" and the president was right to say so.


* And by the way, if anyone wants to see some real incoherence on this subject, consult the right wingers who are defending the policeman today, but who also believe that anyone has the right to shoot first and ask questions later if they "feel" threatened in their own home. By their lights, Gates should have been arrested for behaving "tumultuously" but would have been within his rights to shoot Sgt Crowley. This is why conservatives have no standing to discuss anything more complicated than Sarah Palin's wardrobe.

http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2009/07/gatesgate-by-digby-i-have-been.html


http://photos1.blogger.com/img/187/1525/400/network-howard-beal.jpg

[beandip]

"The news was parsed and Tweeted, rued and debated. This was, after all Henry "Skip" Gates: Summa cum laude and Phi Beta Kappa graduate of Yale. MacArthur "genius grant" recipient. Acclaimed historian, Harvard professor and PBS documentarian. One of Time magazine's "25 Most Influential Americans" in 1997. Holder of 50 honorary degrees."


So smart he misplaced his keys......LOL

[beandip]

"Good police officers will diffuse these sorts of confrontations. This one either couldn’t or didn’t want to."

Nonsense. "Good cops" are taught to take command of the situation. Cops are not social workers. They are not paid to debate. The fact that gates was handcuffed with his hands IN FRONT of him was actually improper procedure but the cop did it in deference to him.....or out of respect to him.

[beandip]

"I'm sure that you, beanship, will lick the ass of any policeman who bursts into your home and asks for ID. Probably suck his dick too. But then, nobody here expects anything more from you?"

Actually I've been detained a few times, cuffed and stuffed while leaving my shop after working very late. My shop used to be in a shitty section of town. I've been a victim several times of DWW..."Driving While White"...been handcuffed, had my truck searched etc....I've lived with a cop(my bro) for 9 years, so I see things from their POV quite often, much to the consternation of some of my libtard friends....

I've also had my suitcase torn apart, my shoes destroyed by the customs agents at JFK YEARS ago...1990 or 91, coming back from Cartegena can't remember the exact year....because I fit the profile of a drug running mule....

I just tend to laugh it off......the cop was doing his job. Gates is a whining asshole.

[beandip]

"Even if a police officer is breaking the law/violating your rights... it's never a good idea to be over confrontational with the police on the scene. Best thing to do is file a complaint or sue them after the fact."

Best advice on this thread. You're never going to "win" an argument with a cop. There are two books everyone should read, one is written by a cop...it's after 4 am and I'm tired but the title is something like "How to avoid a speeding ticket"....the cop delves deeply into the psyche of cops......and another one is simply called "Cops"...and was written by the author who also wrote "Nam"...it's across my room in a book case, just too tired to get my ass outta bed and look....

[beandip]

Oh yea, and actually if a cop burst into my home, I would provide him with ID, silly me....LOL.

I'm not gonna set myself up for an ass kickin' or possible arrest. If I felt wronged I'd file a complaint.....but again, I'm not an asshole like Gates trying to politicize a situation or trying to prove a point by being a big fucking hero and start mouthing off to a cop. And another thing, it's standard procedure to drop charges in a case as minor as this.... to think Gates "won" is pure hubris.

[trish]

Beandip. Even though you took the trouble to quote me in four different posts each one fails to address the point of the quote. :lol: :lol: :lol:

My single post from which you quoted answers all your whining complaints. Here it is:

Beandip, you didn't even read the link you yourself provided. As hippiefried mentioned above, the arrest was not for failure to provide ID (which Professor Gates did in fact provide, though the report declines to reference the fact, and did not have to provide) but for disorderly conduct; i.e. contradicting a police officer in the "public area" of his own doorway in front of witnesses. The officer was taking Professor Gates' expression of dissatisfaction way too personally (which is to say, non-professionally). The officer was outraged and embarrassed. So in front of those astounded witnesses, he arrested Gates for the trumped up charge of disorderly conduct. The prosecutor agreed it was an unprofessional and inappropriate arrest.

The whining cunts are those cowards at Fox who, goaded by their fear of uppity people of color, uploaded the arrest warrant against Professor Gates. Why? I'm sure the Boston Police Department wishes the arrest was never made. The prosecutor dropped the charge. They're all hoping Gates won't sue. So what do the bigots at Fox have to gain by posting the link? Answer: They get to disrespect an uppity internationally reknown black man by posting his mug shots in a police report that should never have been filed in the first place. Oh that's not racism, that just being racist cunts.

I'm sure that you, beanship, will lick the ass of any policeman who bursts into your home and asks for ID. Probably suck his dick too. But then, nobody here expects anything more from you?

[beandip]

http://www.cnn.com/video/?/video/us/2009/07/26/nr.comrade.in.arms.cnn

[trish]

Wow. They got some police officers to speak favorably for Crowley…surprise, surprise! What they’re saying is that Crowley’s actions weren’t racist. Since you seem to be posting the clip as a rebuttal, let me say once again you haven’t addressed anything I’ve said. Have I said Crowley’s actions were racially motivated? I said,

The officer was taking Professor Gates' expression of dissatisfaction way too personally (which is to say, non-professionally). The officer was outraged and embarrassed. So in front of those astounded witnesses, he arrested Gates for the trumped up charge of disorderly conduct. The prosecutor agreed it was an unprofessional and inappropriate arrest.

I did say Fox “News” is filled with racists. But that’s a different matter.

I’m not saying Crowley’s motivations weren’t racial either. Only Crowley knows, and he may only find the answer through introspection. Why did he let this man, get under his skin? He must’ve encountered lot’s of irate people in his career. Did he arrest them all on trumped up charges? If we can take his colleague’s character testimony at face value, probably not. So why this one? What was about this black intellectual mouthing off at him that motivated Crowley to trump up a charge of disorderly conduct? Maybe its latent racism. Maybe Crowley had a bad day. Maybe Cowley’s not such a good cop after all. Maybe the policemen should be trained to diffuse tense situations instead of exacerbating them. You say they’re trained to take command of a situation? This situation took command of Crowley.

[beandip]

I've already addressed your queries.

Cops are not arbitrators.* They are not social workers. They do not get paid to negotiate*. They certainly do not get paid to debate.
When a cop comes to a possible B&E scene, his hackles are already up. When a cop has to deal with someone mouthing off to him / her, in all likely-hood that person will get cuffed. gates is an immature asshole....just itchin' to be a victim. I'm sorry if you somehow feel offended by this little tid-bit of info.... but it's true, ask any cop, what ever skin color he / she might have.....give the cop enough reason to....and guess what sweetie, you'll get tagged. It's a no brainer.

On a totally different note...I've beaten 4 speeding tickets over 100mph, and even held the state record for speeding (albeit for a short period of time) at 147 mph.** I didn't get out of that one.....LOL ....caught by VASCAR in Danbury.

But the first thing I do ( provided I make the decision not to ditch the cop) is to pull over, put my tail between my legs and by all means be polite. I STFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUPPPPPP!!!!!!! and politely volunteer as LITTLE info as possible, after of course having my DL and POI already out and sitting on the fuel tank...waiting for the cop.

* unless they're doing hostage negotiations

** was beaten three months later at 157 mph by a dude with a Gixxer


Personal best was gettin' pinched 152 mph in Dutchess county. I walked away from that one....LOL


Either way... when I get pinched, I certainly don't start whining....and giving the cop shit.

It's a good thing the cop acted professionally towards the imbecile gates....in a different jurisdiction he might have gotten his ass TASED.....now that would'a been some funny shit to see.

[trish]

Cops are not arbitrators.* They are not social workers. They do not get paid to negotiate*. They certainly do not get paid to debate.

Gates was the only party at the residence, hence there was no arbitrating to do, no social work to be done, no negotiating to do. Where did I say the officer should have negotiated or arbitrated? That would be silly when there was only one person at the residence. And where did I say the officer should have engaged in conversation and debated Gates. That would be absurd and probably only aggravate the situation. You call this addressing my points??? You're just setting up a straw man. A good police officer diffuses tense situations, he doesn't make them worse.


When a cop comes to a possible B&E scene, his hackles are already up.

That’s unprofessional. He should be alert. He should be on guard. But he shouldn’t have his “hackles up”. But then again, you don't know shit. You're just imagining that your hackles would be up if you were called to the scene. What follows for you doesn't necessarily apply to a properly trained officer.

So what if Gates was being an asshole? I agree, he was, though it's a judgment, not fact (I didn't come to that judgment because he's a black man, did you?). I take no offense at your suggestion that Gates was behaving like an ass. But that is NOT a legal reason for arrest. It may be reason enough for Crowley. But as we know, Crowley couldn’t make it stick for even 24 hours.


On a totally different note...I've beaten 4 speeding tickets over 100mph, and even held the state record for speeding
I see you’re a wonderful person, who has everyone’s safety always on your mind. But I thought you only got pulled over for driving while white.


…in a different jurisdiction he might have gotten his ass TASED
True enough, which doesn’t speak well for police in other jurisdictions either. Just because things could've gone worse, doesn't mean they went well.

[techi]

As much as I dislike it when police are rude, make a bad call or infringe on our civil liberties.... I think this particular incident has become overblown. The US President should not be involved in this.... Obama's wagging the dog here to keep the press and public's minds off the shitstorms facing the United States.

Shit Storms?
1. US Taxpayer on the hook for 24 Trillion Dollar TARP. And almost no one is going to jail for it... lol.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aQEI97EY.fs0

2. Unemployment heading north of 10%, this effectively means that 20% of able bodied Americans out of work since government numbers do not include those who have given up looking for a job.

3. Occupations of Afghanistan&Iraq with no clear exit plan. Add in bombings of Pakistan which may destabilize that country beyond it's limits.

4. Sabre rattling with Iran... plus clear signs that US covert operations are at work inside Iran.. monkeying with thier internal politics. Not to mention that our ally Israel is looking like they may attack Iran without a green light from the US. If Israel attacks Iran the world will believe that we gave Israel the green light to do it.

5. An unsustainable Federal budget deficit combined with breakdowns in state government funding.

6. Every country is looking for a way to replace the dollar as the worlds reserve currency. Luckily for Obama, it isn't easy to replace the dollar despite it's increasing worthlessness.

7. Obama set his sights on Healthcare reform, not a bad choice but... it's not going smoothly so far.

8. Leftover scandals from Bush admin... Cheney etc..

There's no doubt that Bush left a mess for Obama.... but that doesn't mean we should let Obama off the hook.... Obama has to fix this shit instead of "having a beer" with the professor and the cop.

[chefmike]

Damn...you're right, techi...we got some serious problems in this country...and all that sumbitch Obama wants to do is drink beer...but thanks anyway Captain Obvious for reminding us of the mess that President Obama inherited and praise be to Allah that one of the candidates that the hate Obama crowd endorsed wasn't elected...BTW, are you now or have you ever been a paulbot, techi?

[El Nino]

Chef, you forgot to simply mention the fact that the Obama administration is joyfully compounding the problems that this Country is facing...

BTW, you might want to consider downgrading the prescription strength of the lenses on those Obama goggles that you are wearing! Cheers

[techi]

Damn...you're right, techi...we got some serious problems in this country...and all that sumbitch Obama wants to do is drink beer...but thanks anyway Captain Obvious for reminding us of the mess that President Obama inherited and praise be to Allah that one of the candidates that the hate Obama crowd endorsed wasn't elected...BTW, are you now or have you ever been a paulbot, techi?

Chefmike, are you now or have you ever been an Obamabot? lol

If it's so obvious then why all the chatter on this tiny issue from the press and public? Everyone is blowing this tiny local issue all out of proportion.

Paulbot? is that a Ron Paul supporter? Nah, I consider Ron Paul a mixed bag and I didn't vote for him. I appreciate his stand against foreign wars and his fight to audit the fed but... I do not think many of his domestic policies would work. That said, I did vote independant because I do believe that both political parties need a wakeup call. If I lived in a swing state I'd have voted for Obama simply because a McCain win would have been an endorsement of all of Bush's failboat policies.

Who's the "hate Obama crowd"? Anyone that disagrees with some of Obama's policies or are you talking about the right wing radio noise machine? There's no doubt that listening to Sean Hannity and Rush Limbaugh does cause brain cancer.

[trish]

It’s true Obama’s remark was distracting. But I don’t think it was an intentional distraction, given the premise that he held the news conference to drum up support for healthcare reform.

I agree there’s a lot of shit to fix. Obama supporters are saying he’s only been in office since the end of January, and he’s focused on healthcare, the economy and the wars. I count myself as a relatively strong supporter, but I don’t see why he gave congress such leeway in writing the healthcare reform. Because he didn’t take control right away of the discussion we won’t get single payer and we may not even get a public option. I don’t see why he can’t address social issues (such as gay rights, race relations etc.) in parallel with his other efforts. I also don’t see why he doesn’t let congress do its job and investigate Cheney and Bush.

I was initially upset that Obama didn’t allow the publication of the pictures of torture in Gitmo. I since read that Iraqi’s were more upset with the photographs taken at Abu Garibe (sp) than with the torture itself! They expected the captives were torture. But the publishing the photos was humiliating to all Iraqis. Go figure.

As far as Afghanistan goes, I was for pulling out. But I voted for Obama even though he campaigned on increased focus in Afghanistan. So I’m not complaining about that…yet.

So there’s a lot to complain about and lot problems to solve. But I don’t think a drink with Gates and Crowley is intended as a distraction. Rather, I think he wants to get this racial incident behind him and get the nation focused on healthcare again. Someone should have explained to him that it’s only going to extend the life of the Gates/Crowley story for another day at least. Then again, why can’t this nation of multi-taskers think about two things at once?

[El Nino]

...

[tsbrenda]

GATES is a friend of OBAMA


they are good friends

he came to his friends aid

wouldnt you?

[techi]

GATES is a friend of OBAMA


they are good friends

he came to his friends aid

wouldnt you?

So you are saying that people who have friends in high places should recieve special privilages? I find that repugnant.

[brickcitybrother]

This is such a waste of time. When NYC a white officer shoots and kills a black off-duty officer. We know what we need to know about the general perception of white law enforcement to african-americans

[q1a2z3]

This is such a waste of time. When NYC a white officer shoots and kills a black off-duty officer. We know what we need to know about the general perception of white law enforcement to african-americans


Can you provide more information to make a true judgment or was the black cop simply running down the street with a television under his arm?

[hippifried]

This is such a waste of time. When NYC a white officer shoots and kills a black off-duty officer. We know what we need to know about the general perception of white law enforcement to african-americans


Can you provide more information to make a true judgment or was the black cop simply running down the street with a television under his arm?
Oh. So I suppose the answer to crime & police brutality is:

[q1a2z3]

...

Nothin' wrong with imperialism boy! Foreigners are just like cue balls - the harder you hit them the more english you get out of them.

[q1a2z3]

This is such a waste of time. When NYC a white officer shoots and kills a black off-duty officer. We know what we need to know about the general perception of white law enforcement to african-americans


Can you provide more information to make a true judgment or was the black cop simply running down the street with a television under his arm?
Oh. So I suppose the answer to crime & police brutality is:

Alas, the poor hippi sees a racist behind every rock. Once conservatives take the country back to where it belongs - maybe we can deport the ACLU, the liberals, etc.. to europe where they will be happier.

[trish]

Too late q1a2z3. The liberals already have your country and we're taking out the trash. Soon the death panel will be sending you notice of your immediate termination. :roll:

[hippifried]

This is such a waste of time. When NYC a white officer shoots and kills a black off-duty officer. We know what we need to know about the general perception of white law enforcement to african-americans


Can you provide more information to make a true judgment or was the black cop simply running down the street with a television under his arm?
Oh. So I suppose the answer to crime & police brutality is:

Alas, the poor hippi sees a racist behind every rock. Once conservatives take the country back to where it belongs - maybe we can deport the ACLU, the liberals, etc.. to europe where they will be happier.
Wrong spud. Just you. Well there's been others, but you're the blatant idiot on here right now, hiding behind your computer. Unlike pseudo-conservative klan/nazis who have no real argument, I don't claim to be a mind reader. No ouija board. No crystal ball. No daily emails or loudmouthed radio putzes to feed me talking points & explain everybody else's thought processes. I can only go by what you say. So far, all I've seen from you is racism, ignorance, delusional pride in your ignorance, blatant stupidity, more delusional pride in your stupidity, fear, irrational fear of anything outside your immediate comfort level which doesn't seem to be very wide, & word for word talking points that I see all over the political forums on the internet that tells me you're just a puppet that can't really think at all. There's no wit in your posts. Just a lot of squawking like a parrot.

So what now you prissy little pissant? Got something impressive? You've been a dud so far. My bet is that you can probably keep that up for the rest of your life.

[q1a2z3]

Too late q1a2z3. The liberals already have your country and we're taking out the trash. Soon the death panel will be sending you notice of your immediate termination. :roll:

We welcome any physical battle with the left. It will last about 15 mins - we got the superior resources... like fish in a barrel :D

[q1a2z3]

This is such a waste of time. When NYC a white officer shoots and kills a black off-duty officer. We know what we need to know about the general perception of white law enforcement to african-americans


Can you provide more information to make a true judgment or was the black cop simply running down the street with a television under his arm?
Oh. So I suppose the answer to crime & police brutality is:

Alas, the poor hippi sees a racist behind every rock. Once conservatives take the country back to where it belongs - maybe we can deport the ACLU, the liberals, etc.. to europe where they will be happier.
Wrong spud. Just you. Well there's been others, but you're the blatant idiot on here right now, hiding behind your computer. Unlike pseudo-conservative klan/nazis who have no real argument, I don't claim to be a mind reader. No ouija board. No crystal ball. No daily emails or loudmouthed radio putzes to feed me talking points & explain everybody else's thought processes. I can only go by what you say. So far, all I've seen from you is racism, ignorance, delusional pride in your ignorance, blatant stupidity, more delusional pride in your stupidity, fear, irrational fear of anything outside your immediate comfort level which doesn't seem to be very wide, & word for word talking points that I see all over the political forums on the internet that tells me you're just a puppet that can't really think at all. There's no wit in your posts. Just a lot of squawking like a parrot.

So what now you prissy little pissant? Got something impressive? You've been a dud so far. My bet is that you can probably keep that up for the rest of your life.

Hmmm... if I was a pissant (like hippi) then I would be ignored, but I'm not and he gets mad... yep another case of liberal moonbat psychosis being interrupted with reality from my buddy Rush Limbaugh.


As for racism why not ask the milk chocolate president about his immediate jump to the conclusion that whitey policeman was wrong. We got to see the real obama. No one is without racism - unless they are lefties of course.


I express my opinion here just like everyone else. Correctness is in the eye of the writer and reader.

[q1a2z3]

Too late q1a2z3. The liberals already have your country and we're taking out the trash. Soon the death panel will be sending you notice of your immediate termination. :roll:

We welcome any physical battle with the left. It will last about 15 mins - we got the superior resources... like fish in a barrel :D


We also have tartar sauce like Garfield!

[Rogers]

Too late q1a2z3. The liberals already have your country and we're taking out the trash. Soon the death panel will be sending you notice of your immediate termination. :roll:

We welcome any physical battle with the left. It will last about 15 mins - we got the superior resources... like fish in a barrel :D


We also have tartar sauce like Garfield!

South Park AND Garfield! LMAO. You're just the gift that keeps on giving...

[fitz207]

This is such a waste of time. When NYC a white officer shoots and kills a black off-duty officer. We know what we need to know about the general perception of white law enforcement to african-americans


Can you provide more information to make a true judgment or was the black cop simply running down the street with a television under his arm?
Oh. So I suppose the answer to crime & police brutality is:

Alas, the poor hippi sees a racist behind every rock. Once conservatives take the country back to where it belongs - maybe we can deport the ACLU, the liberals, etc.. to europe where they will be happier.
Wrong spud. Just you. Well there's been others, but you're the blatant idiot on here right now, hiding behind your computer. Unlike pseudo-conservative klan/nazis who have no real argument, I don't claim to be a mind reader. No ouija board. No crystal ball. No daily emails or loudmouthed radio putzes to feed me talking points & explain everybody else's thought processes. I can only go by what you say. So far, all I've seen from you is racism, ignorance, delusional pride in your ignorance, blatant stupidity, more delusional pride in your stupidity, fear, irrational fear of anything outside your immediate comfort level which doesn't seem to be very wide, & word for word talking points that I see all over the political forums on the internet that tells me you're just a puppet that can't really think at all. There's no wit in your posts. Just a lot of squawking like a parrot.

So what now you prissy little pissant? Got something impressive? You've been a dud so far. My bet is that you can probably keep that up for the rest of your life.
:claps :claps :claps :claps :claps