MTF Transexuals outside the sex industry

[MrF]

From this forum we get a fascinating glimpse into the lives and the issues that affect transexuals, but it's mostly those involved in the sex industry (porn and escorting), apparently. Nothing wrong with that -- it's why we're all here -- but I think it's also interesting to learn something about transexuals outside the industry because we tend to get a biased view here. So, on this thread you may share your knowledge of such women -- without giving away anyone's identity, please.

I'll start. I happen to know two MTF transexuals in "real life". My S.O. and I run in fairly liberal circles where transexuals tend to be better accepted.

One of the two transexuals I know is about 30 y.o., has a boyfriend, but goes around in "boy mode" most of the time, just to avoid trouble, though I have seen her on rare occassions in "girl mode". I guess some would want to classify her as a CD or gay man, but she considers herself transgendered, so we all accept that. She hangs out more with my S.O. (a female) and their "female friend clique", who have small dinner parties, do stuff together, and they all refer to "her" as "she".

The other transexual I know less well, is a respected professional about 50 y.o. who transitioned a bit late in life, had been married to a female but is now single. She goes out in public in "woman mode" and is not really clockable -- looks like a 50 y.o. woman (sorry to say, a bit homely). Outwardly she seems happy and normal, but as I said I don't really know here that well.

Ok, your turn.

[TsVanessa69]

Most of us here live as woman.
The sex industry is a job. What do you think we do after we shoot a scene??
We live normal lives, have normal friends and do normal things. We go grocery shopping, we do laundry, we go to church.
We live like any other woman does. This is 2009. We are a part of the real world and everyday society. Porn and the sex industry does not define us as people.
I don't get the point of you thread.
Just that you know a CD with a boyfriend and a homely 50 year old.

[MrF]

^There's more point than that, but it's explained in the post. Thanks for your reply, though.

[stillies77]

MISTA F!

[bellamy]

^There's more point than that, but it's explained in the post. Thanks for your reply, though.

Yeah I'm not really sure there is more.........

[The Hierophant]

I think his point is asking about people not involved with the sex industry.

[durango95]

I think what he's trying to get is the perspective of someone who is not in the industry, is not a pro....how they handle their day to day life....do they find acceptance, do they find people staring at them when they go grocery shopping, where do they like to go to hang out?
I may be barking up the wrong tree, but I think that's what he's getting at

[The Hierophant]

I think what he's trying to get is the perspective of someone who is not in the industry, is not a pro....how they handle their day to day life....do they find acceptance, do they find people staring at them when they go grocery shopping, where do they like to go to hang out?
I may be barking up the wrong tree, but I think that's what he's getting at

i could be wrong, but I'm assuming the only difference would be what they happen to do for a living. Unless there is some special porn star grocery store that I'm not aware of... and if there is, can someone kindly tell me where it is. 8)

[durango95]

I think what he's trying to get is the perspective of someone who is not in the industry, is not a pro....how they handle their day to day life....do they find acceptance, do they find people staring at them when they go grocery shopping, where do they like to go to hang out?
I may be barking up the wrong tree, but I think that's what he's getting at

i could be wrong, but I'm assuming the only difference would be what they happen to do for a living. Unless there is some special porn star grocery store that I'm not aware of... and if there is, can someone kindly tell me where it is. 8)If you find that porn star grocery store, let me know where it is.... maybe I can get a job there to help the lovely ladies with those groceries

[MrF]

Since I know only two TGirls, I can't draw much of a generalization, but what I see is they face a pressure of discrimination and have found different ways of dealing with it. The older one was well-established in a profession which cannot discriminate in theory -- although if she had transitioned before being established it may have held her back. The younger one chooses to go through day-to-day life as a boy to avoid problems.

But this thread is not about me or my two acquaintances. I was interesting in learning more about the subject and was offering a first example. The suggestion is to focus on the original question if you have information. Or maybe let the thread die -- maybe this is the wrong forum.

[durango95]

Since I know only two TGirls, I can't draw much of a generalization, but what I see is they face a pressure of discrimination and have found different ways of dealing with it. The older one was well-established in a profession which cannot discriminate in theory -- although if she had transitioned before being established it may have held her back. The younger one chooses to go through day-to-day life as a boy to avoid problems.

But this thread is not about me or my two acquaintances. I was interesting in learning more about the subject and was offering a first example. The suggestion is to focus on the original question if you have information. Or maybe let the thread die -- maybe this is the wrong forum.I think if you look at some of the older boards, you may find the answer to which you seek, try doing a search and see what come sup

[Hara_Juku Tgirl]

I don't get what the OP is trying to say either. Like Vanessa has pointed out, every transgender has their own private and personal life that's not any different than any genetic women. We have friends, run errands etc. Some of us, looks picture perfect all the time (porn-looking vanities) while others look homely (plain Janes). Some lived full time (as women) and ohters part time. You can just about find the same with genetic men and women!

~Kisses.

HTG

[peggygee]

Post 3400

If the only exposure that men got to transwomen was from these pages
or from sites like this one, they would formulate a very skewed and
jaundiced viewpoint.

Many of the women that post here seem to have adopted a "victim
mentality."

They believe that society will only allow them to be second class citizens.
That it will not allow them to pursue and obtain job, housing or other
societal rights or to be in loving, caring relationships.

And no this isn't about the ethics or morality of the sex trade. I personally
think that it's empowering and important that women have control over
their bodies, be it over who she has sex with, her surgical choices, or
otherwise.

As a woman of color, who has been full time almost four decades, I do
wonder where my Sisters get the perception and acceptance that it's okay
to be discriminated against and held back.

Sure, I'm aware of "passing privilege", the ability of a transwoman to
blend in and assimilate into mainstream society.

Judging from photos, and from women that I know and have known IRL,
"passing privilege" isn't a problem for quite a few.

Is it age?

Most of the women that post on these sites are between 18 -30.

Is it that they haven't found there niche in life yet, haven't completd their
formal education, don't have marletable skills.

As a middle-aged woman I will tell you that "if" you do allow life to get by
without enhancing your skill set, you will be that second class
citizen you fear.

Being a 50 year old escort ain't cute, and you can't put it on your resume
and there's no pension, 401K, workmens comp, etc. with it.

Alas, I've digressed from the original question.

To the OP and others, there are indeed many, many transwomen leading
mainstream lives.

Many are stealth, she could be your child's teacher, the waitress who
served you lunch, that attractive clerk in the store, your accountant,
your pharmacist.

Hell she could have been the girl whose pussy you were eating out last
night, and that you're sprung for.

There are also women who aren't mad at the world, don't feel victimized,
and that life has given them the shitty end of the stick.

As I close, I want to share with you that I too once felt like many of you.

I felt that society was always going to hold me back. I felt that men only
wanted to use me for a penis receptacle and a cum bucket, and if that
was the case, then I was going to make them pay to do so.

But I've never allowed anyone to tell me where I could or couldn't work,
or live, either because of my race or my gender.

I've been in long term relationships with men, have met families, co-
workers, etc, and have never been a dirty little secret.

Am I better than anyone else, far from it.

I just realized early on that life is what you make it.

On this Fourth of July, 2009, my wish is that this long-winded post will
give some the independence and equal rights that they feel has been
with-held them.

With love, and hope.
Peg....

[SarahG]

From this forum we get a fascinating glimpse into the lives and the issues that affect transexuals, but it's mostly those involved in the sex industry (porn and escorting), apparently. Nothing wrong with that -- it's why we're all here -- but I think it's also interesting to learn something about transexuals outside the industry because we tend to get a biased view here. So, on this thread you may share your knowledge of such women -- without giving away anyone's identity, please.


I think I understand what you're saying.

There are girls who post here who do not work in adult entertainment or as sex workers (the two are pretty different fields imho, I think it would be in error to consider the two a single combined field). I think some people tend to assume that all the trans girls who post here do, but that's not true.

My impression (anyone chime in if you disagree) is that most of the trans support sites are dominated by people who aren't fully transitioned (i.e. people who are either pre-everything or not fulltime, or haven't been fulltime for long). Those sites are notorious for regular posters becoming inactive after being fulltime for a while, either because they've gone into stealth, or don't see trans stuff as a big enough thing in their life anymore to talk about it so frequently.

But I think, truthfully, that the "experience" of being trans, as varied as that is, has a degree of consistency regardless what type of employment someone has. The stories that people have, about idiot dmv clerks, hostile health care professionals, unaccepting families, cops, religious zealots- tend to be fairly similar all across the board for all trans people, both ftm's & mtf's, both escorts & nonescorts. And then there's all the drama (not related to trans stuff at all) that people talk about that's caused by the nature of life itself (relationship trouble, trouble with friends, etc.).

The sex working stuff... I gotta wonder just how similar it is to the experience of GGs who are sex workers. The stories I've heard about landlords, cops, bad clients, etc all sound not so different from the stories I grew up hearing from GG's but, since I have never worked in that field I am just speculating there.

[MrF]

Thanks a lot, everyone, and especially Peggygee and SaraG -- I've always admired your commentary on this board.

BTW, happy July 4th. I'm going to a public fireworks festival soon ...

[peggygee]

Thanks a lot, everyone, and especially Peggygee and SaraG -- I've always admired your commentary on this board.

BTW, happy July 4th. I'm going to a public fireworks festival soon ...

You'rre most welcome MrF, and you're known to give
good posts as well.

Have a safe 4th, and be sure to say Hi to the Mrs. for me.

[tsmandy]

The sex working stuff... I gotta wonder just how similar it is to the experience of GGs who are sex workers. The stories I've heard about landlords, cops, bad clients, etc all sound not so different from the stories I grew up hearing from GG's but, since I have never worked in that field I am just speculating there.

Its pretty much the same. I mean there are some differences, but not many. I've shared alot of the same clients as my GG sex worker friends, and have introduced GG to different directors that I've worked with. Sure the sex is a little different, but not much. Some girls get amazing clients, and some girls barely make ends meet TS and GG. Some girls careers take off in porn, and most don't TS and GG.

And I actually think a whore is a whore, whether it be on camera or in private. Just because of the semantical bullshit which allows for "adult entertainment" but criminalizes "prostitution" doesn't change the fact that we are fucking for a living. Sure doing porn means one doesn't need to worry about vice, but one still needs to worry about legal liabilities. It is only slightly more socially acceptable to be a successful porn star than it is to be a successful prostitute.

[SoCaliDude]

I often wonder the same Mr F.

I'm also curious to hear about MTF ladies how have transitioned, either left the business or were never a part of it, and went on to live a fruitful stealth life.

Anyone know of any girls who married, went on to have successful careers or possibly raised a family as a stepmom?

The few I'm aware of I learned about from Transsexual Women's Successes.

http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TSsuccesses/TSsuccesses.html

Let's continue this fascinating thread about "MTF Transsexuals outside the sex industry."

Peace

[Nautica]

I read that link in 2004. I read a number of those women' stories. They are soooo inspiring! Tear worthy! Thanks for posting it SoCaliDude!!

[tsbrenda]

http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TSsuccesses/TSgallery1.html

http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TSsuccesses/TSgallery4.html


http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TSsuccesses/TSgallery3.html

http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TSsuccesses/TSgallery2.html

http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TSsuccesses/Harisu2s.jpg


http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TSsuccesses/Vanessa2s.jpg

http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TSsuccesses/Bibi2.jpg


http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TSsuccesses/Candis/Candis%20s.jpg


http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TSsuccesses/AmadaLear1s.jpg

http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TSsuccesses/RobertaClose2s.jpg

[BrendaQG]

"girls" who act "gay". For some it is a phase. I think that if anything it can come from having many gay male friends. People naturally pic up the mannerisms of those around them. So if they are around many gay males, they pick up gay male mannerisms. If they spent time around more women, they would pick their mannerisms. I really think it's that simple.


peggygee: You asked a long question a few post back, basically why the ladies here, are here.

The short answer is that most of the time this kind of business is a means to an end. The kind of job a 18-30 year old genetic woman typically has couldn't pay the bill for transition with all it's surgery and normal expenses. Under ideal conditions why would we do any better than GG's? We don't. Without good credit, and a really good job this is the shortest route from point a to point b. Water and electricity seek the path of least resistance, so to people. It's a law of nature.

[AverageJob]

This is 2009. We are a part of the real world and everyday society. Porn and the sex industry does not define us as people.
Society thinks otherwise

[blacktgirls]

peggygee: You asked a long question a few post back, basically why the ladies here, are here.

The short answer is that most of the time this kind of business is a means to an end. The kind of job a 18-30 year old genetic woman typically has couldn't pay the bill for transition with all it's surgery and normal expenses. Under ideal conditions why would we do any better than GG's? We don't. Without good credit, and a really good job this is the shortest route from point a to point b. Water and electricity seek the path of least resistance, so to people. It's a law of nature. Brenda, you went to college for math and if you finished and got a degree why didn't you try and find a job with your education ? you might have been hired by a company and if you transitioned while working there you would have been protected by anti-discrimination laws.

[BellaBellucci]

I often wonder the same Mr F.

Anyone know of any girls who married, went on to have successful careers or possibly raised a family as a stepmom?

Some trans people have their OWN BIOLOGICAL children that they take care of too. Why not just say 'raise a family?' We don't ALL lose our kids in transition and divorce you know!

Just showing some love to the other trans-moms out there! Peace.

~BB~

[BellaBellucci]

This is 2009. We are a part of the real world and everyday society. Porn and the sex industry does not define us as people.
Society thinks otherwise

Really? Hasn't been my experience. Imho, those who have self respect get respect from others, regardless of what they do for a living. I've never been disrespected due to my line of work. Maybe I've been lucky but I've been in the biz for years, so I don't think it's that.

~BB~

[peggygee]

peggygee: You asked a long question a few post back, basically why the ladies here, are here.

The short answer is that most of the time this kind of business is a means to an end. The kind of job a 18-30 year old genetic woman typically has couldn't pay the bill for transition with all it's surgery and normal expenses. Under ideal conditions why would we do any better than GG's? We don't. Without good credit, and a really good job this is the shortest route from point a to point b. Water and electricity seek the path of least resistance, so to people. It's a law of nature.

Brenda, that answer may work for the tricks, chasers, and people that
don't know any better.

But I've been in this 'thing of our's' for a very long time.

Having had just about every conceivable transition related surgery,
including GRS, I am fully aware of the costs of transition.

Is it expensive, if you desire to go all the way to GRS, yes it is.

Is it doable, again, yes it is.

A good proportion of the women here have achieved their transition
goals. They have had their breast augmentation, FFS, are undergoing
HRT, have had silicon injections if desired, and so on. Many don't desire
GRS, so transition-wise, they are complete.

As we are both aware breast augmentation isn't particularly expensive.
HRT is manageable cost-wise. FFS can be costly, orchiectomy if desired
averages 1.5K, and the price of GRS averages 5K to 20K, I would say
bringing it all to fruition is achievable.

What has happened is that some have realized that their penis is the
goose that lays the golden egg, it's their meal ticket.

And for many who don't have marketable skills, or have a blemished
criminal past, or who are here in the country illegally, it is a means to
earn a fairly decent living off the books.

Sadly they end up getting pimped by Guggi, Pucci, Fiorrucci, and a host
of other designers, or the money ends up going up their nose or in their
veins, and not to return to school or for transition costs as they tell the
tricks.

And that's cool, I will never knock someone's hustle, and as I stated
upthread I feel that it is a woman's right as to what she does with her
body.

Like I said, I've been in this 'thing of our's a very long time, I'm a 'made
woman"I know where the money comes from, be it escorting, porn,
credit card /check fraud, boosting, legitimate means, and all points in
between, and where it goes.

[deee757]

"girls" who act "gay". For some it is a phase. I think that if anything it can come from having many gay male friends. People naturally pic up the mannerisms of those around them. So if they are around many gay males, they pick up gay male mannerisms. If they spent time around more women, they would pick their mannerisms. I really think it's that simple.


peggygee: You asked a long question a few post back, basically why the ladies here, are here.

The short answer is that most of the time this kind of business is a means to an end. The kind of job a 18-30 year old genetic woman typically has couldn't pay the bill for transition with all it's surgery and normal expenses. Under ideal conditions why would we do any better than GG's? We don't. Without good credit, and a really good job this is the shortest route from point a to point b. Water and electricity seek the path of least resistance, so to people. It's a law of nature.

In so many words...the easy route

[BrendaQG]

peggygee: You asked a long question a few post back, basically why the ladies here, are here.

The short answer is that most of the time this kind of business is a means to an end. The kind of job a 18-30 year old genetic woman typically has couldn't pay the bill for transition with all it's surgery and normal expenses. Under ideal conditions why would we do any better than GG's? We don't. Without good credit, and a really good job this is the shortest route from point a to point b. Water and electricity seek the path of least resistance, so to people. It's a law of nature. Brenda, you went to college for math and if you finished and got a degree why didn't you try and find a job with your education ? you might have been hired by a company and if you transitioned while working there you would have been protected by anti-discrimination laws.

I went to college for Physics and to get a job in physics one needs an advanced degree these days, a PhD. (http://ajfortin.com/2008/05/29/freeman-dyson-the-phd-stranglehold-on-progress/) So after my BS I have been in graduate school. In the industry of science that is the required next step. God willing I will get a M.S. in 2010 and a PhD a few years latter.

As you should know graduate students do not get paid allot. The stipend for graduate students at the university I go to now is $9500 for three quarters..if you work summer you get another $3000 or so. It's impossible to live anywhere near that university on that kind of money, even in the ghetto your rent for the year will exceed that amount of money. That is the going rate for a graduate student...and I didn't even get that last year. A real job in industry or research practically cannot be had without the MS or PhD.

Last but not least those anti-discrimination laws are no real protection. They only cow many into not trying it, but if they discriminate anyway proving it is next to impossible. Outside of some really ignorant egregious actions.

[BrendaQG]

Like I said, I've been in this 'thing of our's a very long time, I'm a 'made
woman"I know where the money comes from, be it escorting, porn,
credit card /check fraud, boosting, legitimate means, and all points in
between, and where it goes.

Where does this really differ from what I said? We all have different transition goals. Which ever of those means, or whatever combination of those means, is the least resistant path to the goals is the one that will be followed. It's human nature, and the nature of the world. Just like water flowing to the sea.

That does not necessarily and in general change because of education. I admit it does provide a few extra possible path's to the goal, but do they provide the least resistance?

I am a student physicist, i have a B.S. but one needs a PhD (http://ajfortin.com/2008/05/29/freeman-dyson-the-phd-stranglehold-on-progress/). to make a living as a scientist these days. So I go to graduate school. In graduate school I have been discriminated against, and changed schools. I have had to deal sometimes all at once with homophobia, transphobia, and male chauvinism. Genetic women even have it hard in the natural sciences. (cue to 5:14 sec) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ii3335SQTCo) Then there is the money situation of a graduate student which I explained above. In the face of all those realities is it so surprising that I do this?

[deee757]

Like I said, I've been in this 'thing of our's a very long time, I'm a 'made
woman"I know where the money comes from, be it escorting, porn,
credit card /check fraud, boosting, legitimate means, and all points in
between, and where it goes.

Where does this really differ from what I said? We all have different transition goals. Which ever of those means, or whatever combination of those means, is the least resistant path to the goals is the one that will be followed. It's human nature, and the nature of the world. Just like water flowing to the sea.

That does not necessarily and in general change because of education. I admit it does provide a few extra possible path's to the goal, but do they provide the least resistance?

I am a student physicist, i have a B.S. but one needs a PhD (http://ajfortin.com/2008/05/29/freeman-dyson-the-phd-stranglehold-on-progress/). to make a living as a scientist these days. So I go to graduate school. In graduate school I have been discriminated against, and changed schools. I have had to deal sometimes all at once with homophobia, transphobia, and male chauvinism. Genetic women even have it hard in the natural sciences. (cue to 5:14 sec) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ii3335SQTCo) Then there is the money situation of a graduate student which I explained above. In the face of all those realities is it so surprising that I do this?

I dont get it. You cant be a grad student and have a full time job? So all grad students should be committing some sort of crime to supplement their income? Not to mention I am a grad student as well, and I am not starting my robbery spree just yet., lol

[BrendaQG]

I dont get it. You cant be a grad student and have a full time job? So all grad students should be committing some sort of crime to supplement their income? Not to mention I am a grad student as well, and I am not starting my robbery spree just yet., lol

Nothing I'm doing right now is illegal. Even if it was... having a full time job and going to graduate school for science is out of the question.
There are fields like say business administration where there are MBA programs which you can do online, and via correspondence. Programs with flexible schedules designed with working people in mind. In science it's different.

First of all to get MS or PhD. in natural sciences you need to do a research project. You need to make a scientific discovery. Second is the fact that graduate students in science are used to teach low level science courses to undergraduate students. On top of that there's your own graduate level coursework. You work 15 hours a week on that teaching, Then another 6-9 hours a week on the coursework and another four or five hours a week on your thesis project. That's 29 hours right then,. so you get a part time job for 11 hours say busing tables at minimum wage $6.50/hour....

The upshot of all that for me is a scheduling nightmare. Next quarter I have two courses. Both start at 5:30 at nite and run until seven. What full time job can i get where I could work 9-5 and realistically commute from where I would work across Chicagoland in traffic and get to school anything like on time. :-/ That does not include the time required for my thesis project OR any possible student teaching/tutoring/research assistance.

When you come at me about this stop and think for a minute. If being a scientist were easy wouldn't more people do it. Heck the thing I do for legit money is hard if your not trans let alone if you are. sheesh.

[AmericanDream]

Most of us here live as woman.
The sex industry is a job. What do you think we do after we shoot a scene??
We live normal lives, have normal friends and do normal things. We go grocery shopping, we do laundry, we go to church.
We live like any other woman does. This is 2009. We are a part of the real world and everyday society. Porn and the sex industry does not define us as people.
I don't get the point of you thread.
Just that you know a CD with a boyfriend and a homely 50 year old.
Do you even know how to read? I think that's why you don't understand here. Here's a little bit of information for you... escorting is not a normal life, it's illegal. Girls have to worry about being robbed, arrested, and whatever else...that's not a normal job and escorts DON'T live a "normal life". The life is crazy a lot of times and if you deny it your a hypocrit and a liar. Shooting porn is one thing but when you are escorting it's much different.

I see that Hara agreed also, sorry but escorting isn't a "normal life".
You live like any other woman does?? Realllyyy...so you go pick up your kids from school, you have an honest job and don't work illegally??
So naive some people are....
"Part of the real world and everyday society"
You work as an escort which is illegal, do you pay taxes on any money you have coming in?? Part of everyday society?
Learn how to read and I'll have more for you.

What the TC is saying and he's completely right, is a lot of t-girls on this site are escorts or porn models. However IRL he knows 2 girls who don't use sex as a form of income, so he's asking how many girls we all know who are T-girls but aren't involved in any sex for money. Is that so hard? Do you get that jealous when someone mentions a t-girl that lives a "normal life" unlike your crazy escorting, sex-industry life? That's terrible.

Brenda if you want to complain about your life I don't think this is the topic to do it in.

[yodajazz]

peggygee: You asked a long question a few post back, basically why the ladies here, are here.

The short answer is that most of the time this kind of business is a means to an end. The kind of job a 18-30 year old genetic woman typically has couldn't pay the bill for transition with all it's surgery and normal expenses. Under ideal conditions why would we do any better than GG's? We don't. Without good credit, and a really good job this is the shortest route from point a to point b. Water and electricity seek the path of least resistance, so to people. It's a law of nature.

Brenda, that answer may work for the tricks, chasers, and people that
don't know any better.

But I've been in this 'thing of our's' for a very long time.

Having had just about every conceivable transition related surgery,
including GRS, I am fully aware of the costs of transition.

Is it expensive, if you desire to go all the way to GRS, yes it is.

Is it doable, again, yes it is.

A good proportion of the women here have achieved their transition
goals. They have had their breast augmentation, FFS, are undergoing
HRT, have had silicon injections if desired, and so on. Many don't desire
GRS, so transition-wise, they are complete.

As we are both aware breast augmentation isn't particularly expensive.
HRT is manageable cost-wise. FFS can be costly, orchiectomy if desired
averages 1.5K, and the price of GRS averages 5K to 20K, I would say
bringing it all to fruition is achievable.

What has happened is that some have realized that their penis is the
goose that lays the golden egg, it's their meal ticket.

And for many who don't have marketable skills, or have a blemished
criminal past, or who are here in the country illegally, it is a means to
earn a fairly decent living off the books.

Sadly they end up getting pimped by Guggi, Pucci, Fiorrucci, and a host
of other designers, or the money ends up going up their nose or in their
veins, and not to return to school or for transition costs as they tell the
tricks.

And that's cool, I will never knock someone's hustle, and as I stated
upthread I feel that it is a woman's right as to what she does with her
body.

Like I said, I've been in this 'thing of our's a very long time, I'm a 'made
woman"I know where the money comes from, be it escorting, porn,
credit card /check fraud, boosting, legitimate means, and all points in
between, and where it goes.

Excellent post, PeggyGee. But I have also seen some who have gotten srs and continued to escort in the female section. And I have said before that some issues that trans sex workers face are more about ther occupation than their t status, as gg sex workers face similar issues.

[BellaBellucci]

I dont get it. You cant be a grad student and have a full time job? So all grad students should be committing some sort of crime to supplement their income? Not to mention I am a grad student as well, and I am not starting my robbery spree just yet., lol

I don't get it: people like you who continuously insist that 'it can be done' and then belittle the people who take 'shortcuts' (and don't say you're not - I can practically SEE the judgment coming from your pixels). Sure, it CAN be done, but if you kill yourself working and transitioning and never have time for yourself, then what's the point?

We don't do this to please others, we do it to correct ourselves and your twisted sense of moral logic isn't helping any women like us. "Can't you just...?" I simply LOVE how you phrased your accusation in the form of a question (how Jeopardy!). Stop telling people what they 'should' be dong - it's simply not your call to make. We don't all get into the biz for the sex or drugs.

Let's not even talk about the discrimination against women (of ANY kind) in the workplace. There are many reasons people are denied employment and I don't know about other girls, but I've definitely noticed a preference among employers to hire men and a complete lack of interest in hiring women, especially those with children such as myself. I believe the feeling is that in this tough economy, employers want to hire people who will sacrifice their families for their jobs (i.e. slaves - just like the credit system) - which clearly creates an advantage for men. I think that's disgusting. The answer to the hiring question in a down economy has always been to hire 'white men' first instead of what many consider a 'luxury hire' or even 'a charity case' in a minority. and it would be very difficult for anyone to argue that point.

I'm not saying all men will ignore family time for income, but the bottom line is that employers want everyone desperate for money right now so that they will stay loyal to them and men are much more LIKELY to do so. It's sort of an amazing feat of employment Münchhausen Syndrome suffered by the working population and perpetrated by arrogant, selfish, and yes often bigoted employers - of which there are far too many. Employers have WAY too much power in this country because discrimination in practice is nearly impossible to prove. Remember that the next time some 'opportunistic' minority brings a 'frivolous' discrimination suit against their bosses.

Once again, times are hard - they're probably three times harder for a trans person considering the income requirements of most. Lucky for me, I have a very low income requirement as I'm pretty natural, and while I'll probably get a little bit of work done surgically at some point, that's also not why I'm in the business. To the contrary, being in the business is my justification FOR needing it since in my everyday life I don't require it to get by, so please tell me which came first: the chicken or the egg? I'm in this to make a life for myself and my child - not for sex, drugs, or a boob job.

Porn work or sex work is just that: work. Get over yourself.

~BB~

[BellaBellucci]

Do you even know how to read? I think that's why you don't understand here. Here's a little bit of information for you... escorting is not a normal life, it's illegal. Girls have to worry about being robbed, arrested, and whatever else...that's not a normal job and escorts DON'T live a "normal life". The life is crazy a lot of times and if you deny it your a hypocrit and a liar. Shooting porn is one thing but when you are escorting it's much different.

I see that Hara agreed also, sorry but escorting isn't a "normal life".
You live like any other woman does?? Realllyyy...so you go pick up your kids from school, you have an honest job and don't work illegally??
So naive some people are....
"Part of the real world and everyday society"
You work as an escort which is illegal, do you pay taxes on any money you have coming in?? Part of everyday society?
Learn how to read and I'll have more for you.


Bullshit! Escorting is NOT illegal. Some of the actions taken during a session may be but the actual act of escorting is NOT illegal. When I lived in Boston I owned an escort agency and you know what? It was a business. An INCORPORATED, TAX PAYING venture. I prided myself on hiring girls that were not 'prostitutes' or who could not be construed as such. In 6 years I only had ONE girl get pinched and she did it to HERSELF. It's a BUSINESS. What people individually choose to turn that business into is their own problem.

She should learn how to read? You should learn how to open your mind! SOCIETY marginalizes us (as well as GG's) FIRST and it's a miracle that many of us survive. We're just supposed to deal with it and work harder to make the advantaged even more advantaged so that they can hate on us some more? We're not anyone's slaves. You can't mistreat us and then expect us to bend over backwards.

In fact many transwomen take their OWN lives, but you seem to be ignorant of the fact that it's not because someone called them a 'man' or a 'freak' but because they know the IMPORTANT PEOPLE (i.e. employers/housing providers) FEEL that way and make it otherwise impossible for them to live.

In your eyes, the answer to the quandary is for girls to NOT transition then. If they didn't, whatever would you do with your time? Quit fronting.

I call bullshit.

~BB~

PS: THIS from a guy named AMERICANDREAM?! OMFG the hypocrisy!

[AmericanDream]

Bella you don't even know what your talking about, read the TC's post and then come talk to me. Your just blabbling about things completely irrelevant to the topic or anything I said.
You can try to be clever and maneuver my use of the word escort, but whats bullshit is how you try to make it like people escort without providing sex...not around these parts they dont...keep trying..until then your post is what's bullshit.

Escorting for you and your kid huh??? I know lots of single parents who supported their kids on foodstamps, not another naive one please!!

[BellaBellucci]

Bella you don't even know what your talking about, read the TC's post and then come talk to me. Your just blabbling about things completely irrelevant to the topic or anything I said.
You can try to be clever and maneuver my use of the word escort, but whats bullshit is how you try to make it like people escort without providing sex...not around these parts they dont...keep trying..until then your post is what's bullshit.

Escorting for you and your kid huh??? I know lots of single parents who supported their kids on foodstamps, not another naive one please!!

You. Mirror. Clue.

I'm not escorting for me and my kid. I'm in the adult industry and have been since I had just turned 18 - long before my son came along. I've been an escort, a booker, a driver, an agency owner, an adult model, a camgirl, etc. Let's not turn this into a 'strawman argument.' I hope you're really not that simplistic. There ARE appropriate ways to be in the sex business or else they wouldn't call it a business now would they? Wouldn't my company have been shut down years ago if it were illegal?

Naive? Hardly. More like experienced. There are exceptions to every rule and you shouldn't generalize like that unless you qualify your statements by at least providing an acknowledgement that your opinion is just that and is not the case 100% of the time. Anything less is just more discrimination.

Didn't you learn anything when Bush said "you're either with us or the terrorists?" His black-or-white attitude nearly destroyed this country. If you have to dumb my argument down in order to process a rebuttal, you go ahead and be my guest.

Just follow the yellow brick road.

~BB~

[peggygee]

peggygee: You asked a long question a few post back, basically why the ladies here, are here.

The short answer is that most of the time this kind of business is a means to an end. The kind of job a 18-30 year old genetic woman typically has couldn't pay the bill for transition with all it's surgery and normal expenses. Under ideal conditions why would we do any better than GG's? We don't. Without good credit, and a really good job this is the shortest route from point a to point b. Water and electricity seek the path of least resistance, so to people. It's a law of nature.

Brenda, that answer may work for the tricks, chasers, and people that
don't know any better.

But I've been in this 'thing of our's' for a very long time.

Having had just about every conceivable transition related surgery,
including GRS, I am fully aware of the costs of transition.

Is it expensive, if you desire to go all the way to GRS, yes it is.

Is it doable, again, yes it is.

A good proportion of the women here have achieved their transition
goals. They have had their breast augmentation, FFS, are undergoing
HRT, have had silicon injections if desired, and so on. Many don't desire
GRS, so transition-wise, they are complete.

As we are both aware breast augmentation isn't particularly expensive.
HRT is manageable cost-wise. FFS can be costly, orchiectomy if desired
averages 1.5K, and the price of GRS averages 5K to 20K, I would say
bringing it all to fruition is achievable.

What has happened is that some have realized that their penis is the
goose that lays the golden egg, it's their meal ticket.

And for many who don't have marketable skills, or have a blemished
criminal past, or who are here in the country illegally, it is a means to
earn a fairly decent living off the books.

Sadly they end up getting pimped by Guggi, Pucci, Fiorrucci, and a host
of other designers, or the money ends up going up their nose or in their
veins, and not to return to school or for transition costs as they tell the
tricks.

And that's cool, I will never knock someone's hustle, and as I stated
upthread I feel that it is a woman's right as to what she does with her
body.

Like I said, I've been in this 'thing of our's a very long time, I'm a 'made
woman"I know where the money comes from, be it escorting, porn,
credit card /check fraud, boosting, legitimate means, and all points in
between, and where it goes.

Excellent post, PeggyGee. But I have also seen some who have gotten srs and continued to escort in the female section. And I have said before that some issues that trans sex workers face are more about ther occupation than their t status, as gg sex workers face similar issues.

Thanks boo, and no matter what they tell you, that's it's for transition
costs, or they're discriminated against, or men just want to treat them
as a dirty little secret, no matter what they tell ya.....

http://commentstash.com/ghetto/all-about-the-benjamins.gif

[BellaBellucci]

Thanks boo, and no matter what they tell you, that's it's for transition
costs, or they're discriminated against, or men just want to treat them
as a dirty little secret, no matter what they tell ya.....


I think you overestimate the amount of money that is in the business for performers and escorts versus the companies under whom they operate. Throw in The Great Recession and I think you'd be surprised.

But why hasn't anybody discussed the discrimination against SEX WORKERS, let alone TS? We all have our reasons for getting in and many of us do so because of the reality that a transitioning woman is going to have a very hard time being accepted in the workplace. But then you kind of get stuck. When you get out of the business and a potential mainstream employer asks, 'well, what did you do for this five years?' and you have to lie and say you were a housewife (and then find ways to prove it), it's never a good feeling.

Nobody is hiring ANYONE right now which is why many of us don't have regular jobs. There simply aren't any. However, I will NOT argue that there ARE many, many girls who only transition to BE in the industry and I don't think that's right either. I guess I just try to stay away from those people.

~BB~

[veriTaS]

Well, since escorting has been justified... :roll: ...not worth the effort

I'll stick to topic

Most of the ts' I know are young, low 20's (transitioned in Jr High and High School), and aren't involved in sex work. They have it hard like any ts, especially having to pay for procedures. But they work hard, some have multiple jobs...some are in school; it really varies. And most of them are able to live in stealth, and have a good support system around them. Many of them don't even know even other ts women, and are accepted by society.

The only real problem I see...over and over. Is that when a relationship begins to get serious, guys flake on them. And they have a hard time dealing with it.

To tell or not to tell, if they are post-op. And most of the pre-op girls I know wait as long as possible to get intimate with a man...with the hope that they'll love them enough. It's depressing hearing some of their dating stories.

These are actually the women I seek to date if a gg doesn't catch my eye. They (generalizing) really know how to treat a man, and really if anything...it takes time to try to level the relationship out because they'll worship you if you treat them right, and I hate that.

And over the past 5 years or so, I've made a lot of friends that I try to keep in touch with as well. I'm actually in a 9 month relationship as we speak. And it's no different than any other relationship I've been in...go to parties, hangout with friends, go to a movie, out to dinner, trips together, etc.

I would of never thought it 5 years ago...but I'm sure most of the people here know ts ladies without realizing it.

[AmericanDream]

Bella your making excuses after excuses....

veritas-hook me up dude

[trish]

I dont get it. You cant be a grad student and have a full time job?
It certainly isn’t recommended. Pursuing a graduate degree in math/science related fields is itself a full time job.


So all grad students should be committing some sort of crime to supplement their income?
No, that doesn’t follow, at least not if you have an assistantship. But an assistantship usually amounts to just a few thousand dollars a year (just enough to cover your rent and grocery bill) and tuition. I think what Brenda is getting at is the additional costs to a student who is also transitioning. Transition is something that you can not easily decide to do later. So Brenda no doubt feels a pressure to continue her transition while at the same time studying for her degrees. I know I did, and that adds considerable stress to your economic situation. Some girls in this situation are easily tempted, both by libido, economics and other factors, to escort as a way of relieving that stress. I was. Apparently Brenda is able to avoid it. In any case, some girls love escorting and for others it was or is a means to an end; not to imply the two categories are mutually exclusive.

[BellaBellucci]

And most of them are able to live in stealth, and have a good support system around them. Many of them don't even know even other ts women, and are accepted by society.

See the bold print. We have a winner. lol

There's the real difference between those in the adult business and those who aren't: support. The adult industry may be a disfunctional family but it's a family nonetheless. For some, it's the only family they've ever had. It got that way because they were ridiculed and rejected outright and were forced to fend for themselves at an early age and by their own blood because they were different. Many, MANY TS who come from upper-middle class homes die in poverty after they come out. Porn is the least of their problems.

~BB~

[BellaBellucci]

Bella your making excuses after excuses....

Really? So you don't think there is such a thing as a GG escort who only works to get through college either? You're saying essentially that escorts are a bunch of money grubbing whores. Well, I say that some are good people who just got dealt a bad hand. I have many years of experience in this field. Do you? I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this.

~BB~

[veriTaS]

Bella,

While I don't agree with all your posts in this thread...I definately agree with the past two posts. Support early on is key...and it usually doesn't happen, or it is very limited.

And I think most all people are good people...but carvings from their experiences. And it affects people in different ways, but I'm still one to believe that you control your fate. Girls choose to escort...then complain about a lack of guys market, a life of degradation, and so on.

I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with escorting...if you enjoy that lifestyle, than more power to you. But it does have it's consequences, and a harsher judgement from mainstream society is one of them.

[BellaBellucci]

Bella,

Girls choose to escort...then complain about a lack of guys market, a life of degradation, and so on. ...

I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with escorting...if you enjoy that lifestyle, than more power to you.

Well thank you for keeping your comments positive, but as to your first statement, sometimes the latter precedes the former.

As to the second, you're still talking about 'enjoyment' and 'lifestyle.' How about 'employment' and 'income?' Are you offering a feasible alternative? Where are all the REAL jobs? China.

~BB~

[SarahG]

Bella,

Girls choose to escort...then complain about a lack of guys market, a life of degradation, and so on. ...

I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with escorting...if you enjoy that lifestyle, than more power to you.

Well thank you for keeping your comments positive, but as to your first statement, sometimes the latter precedes the former.

As to the second, you're still talking about 'enjoyment' and 'lifestyle.' How about 'employment' and 'income?' Are you offering a feasible alternative? Where are all the REAL jobs? China.

~BB~

I wouldn't call enslavement a real job. The companies going over to China aren't doing so to pay people decent or to give them decent working conditions.

[BellaBellucci]

Bella,

Girls choose to escort...then complain about a lack of guys market, a life of degradation, and so on. ...

I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with escorting...if you enjoy that lifestyle, than more power to you.

Well thank you for keeping your comments positive, but as to your first statement, sometimes the latter precedes the former.

As to the second, you're still talking about 'enjoyment' and 'lifestyle.' How about 'employment' and 'income?' Are you offering a feasible alternative? Where are all the REAL jobs? China.

~BB~

I wouldn't call enslavement a real job. The companies going over to China aren't doing so to pay people decent or to give them decent working conditions.

Point taken, but the competition is creating a similar situation in this country. It's all about how desperate a person is for work. Truth be told, we are ALL slaves to the multi-national corporations.

~BB~

[SarahG]

Bella,

Girls choose to escort...then complain about a lack of guys market, a life of degradation, and so on. ...

I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with escorting...if you enjoy that lifestyle, than more power to you.

Well thank you for keeping your comments positive, but as to your first statement, sometimes the latter precedes the former.

As to the second, you're still talking about 'enjoyment' and 'lifestyle.' How about 'employment' and 'income?' Are you offering a feasible alternative? Where are all the REAL jobs? China.

~BB~

I wouldn't call enslavement a real job. The companies going over to China aren't doing so to pay people decent or to give them decent working conditions.

Point taken, but the competition is creating a similar situation in this country. It's all about how desperate a person is for work. Truth be told, we are ALL slaves to the multi-national corporations.

~BB~

No disagreement there, a real job, if anything, is when you have control over your own fate and your own employment.

[Alyssa87]

i feel u bella.
but i think peggy said it right when she said its all about the benjamins.

i held down my only job @ the mall from 15 to 19.
then i got the itch for implants.

my girl put me onto cam.
it was more money for less work, and i could work around my school schedule.

and i paid the price for it.
the only man i've loved dumped me for it.

but i wanted the money for those implants (and now other things) more than i wanted him
... or the respect of anyone for that matter.

[BellaBellucci]

i feel u bella.
but i think peggy said it right when she said its all about the benjamins.

i held down my only job @ the mall from 15 to 19.
then i got the itch for implants.

my girl put me onto cam.
it was more money for less work, and i could work around my school schedule.


'Nuff said.

~BB~

[deee757]

I dont get it. You cant be a grad student and have a full time job? So all grad students should be committing some sort of crime to supplement their income? Not to mention I am a grad student as well, and I am not starting my robbery spree just yet., lol

I don't get it: people like you who continuously insist that 'it can be done' and then belittle the people who take 'shortcuts' (and don't say you're not - I can practically SEE the judgment coming from your pixels). Sure, it CAN be done, but if you kill yourself working and transitioning and never have time for yourself, then what's the point?

We don't do this to please others, we do it to correct ourselves and your twisted sense of moral logic isn't helping any women like us. "Can't you just...?" I simply LOVE how you phrased your accusation in the form of a question (how Jeopardy!). Stop telling people what they 'should' be dong - it's simply not your call to make. We don't all get into the biz for the sex or drugs.

Let's not even talk about the discrimination against women (of ANY kind) in the workplace. There are many reasons people are denied employment and I don't know about other girls, but I've definitely noticed a preference among employers to hire men and a complete lack of interest in hiring women, especially those with children such as myself. I believe the feeling is that in this tough economy, employers want to hire people who will sacrifice their families for their jobs (i.e. slaves - just like the credit system) - which clearly creates an advantage for men. I think that's disgusting. The answer to the hiring question in a down economy has always been to hire 'white men' first instead of what many consider a 'luxury hire' or even 'a charity case' in a minority. and it would be very difficult for anyone to argue that point.

I'm not saying all men will ignore family time for income, but the bottom line is that employers want everyone desperate for money right now so that they will stay loyal to them and men are much more LIKELY to do so. It's sort of an amazing feat of employment Münchhausen Syndrome suffered by the working population and perpetrated by arrogant, selfish, and yes often bigoted employers - of which there are far too many. Employers have WAY too much power in this country because discrimination in practice is nearly impossible to prove. Remember that the next time some 'opportunistic' minority brings a 'frivolous' discrimination suit against their bosses.

Once again, times are hard - they're probably three times harder for a trans person considering the income requirements of most. Lucky for me, I have a very low income requirement as I'm pretty natural, and while I'll probably get a little bit of work done surgically at some point, that's also not why I'm in the business. To the contrary, being in the business is my justification FOR needing it since in my everyday life I don't require it to get by, so please tell me which came first: the chicken or the egg? I'm in this to make a life for myself and my child - not for sex, drugs, or a boob job.

Porn work or sex work is just that: work. Get over yourself.

~BB~

No argument from me, porn sex is legal, prostitution is not. So "get over yourself" when some kid puts a gun to your back telling u to give him your money.

[AmericanDream]

Bella "the girl of 1000 excuses" Belluci.
: D

[deee757]

I dont get it. You cant be a grad student and have a full time job? So all grad students should be committing some sort of crime to supplement their income? Not to mention I am a grad student as well, and I am not starting my robbery spree just yet., lol

Nothing I'm doing right now is illegal. Even if it was... having a full time job and going to graduate school for science is out of the question.
There are fields like say business administration where there are MBA programs which you can do online, and via correspondence. Programs with flexible schedules designed with working people in mind. In science it's different.

First of all to get MS or PhD. in natural sciences you need to do a research project. You need to make a scientific discovery. Second is the fact that graduate students in science are used to teach low level science courses to undergraduate students. On top of that there's your own graduate level coursework. You work 15 hours a week on that teaching, Then another 6-9 hours a week on the coursework and another four or five hours a week on your thesis project. That's 29 hours right then,. so you get a part time job for 11 hours say busing tables at minimum wage $6.50/hour....

The upshot of all that for me is a scheduling nightmare. Next quarter I have two courses. Both start at 5:30 at nite and run until seven. What full time job can i get where I could work 9-5 and realistically commute from where I would work across Chicagoland in traffic and get to school anything like on time. :-/ That does not include the time required for my thesis project OR any possible student teaching/tutoring/research assistance.

When you come at me about this stop and think for a minute. If being a scientist were easy wouldn't more people do it. Heck the thing I do for legit money is hard if your not trans let alone if you are. sheesh.

Well if you are prostituting its illegal, if u are not, than this does not apply to you. There is no justification for committing crimes. Thats what we people that have grew up in poverty stricken areas have been told our whole lives.

[BellaBellucci]

No argument from me, porn sex is legal, prostitution is not. So "get over yourself" when some kid puts a gun to your back telling u to give him your money.

Yes, because that never happens in any other facet of life right? Living in a poor neighborhood actually makes you a lot more like likely to be mugged than working in escorting. The adult business is just like any other business; there's higher end and lower end and as long as you're working the higher end, there's actually very little risk. What you're talking about usually involves streetwalking, pimps, and drugs and if you see bullshit clients, then that's what you'll get: bullshit. If you're seeing lawyers from out of town at the Wyndham hotel, and what happens is between two consenting adults, I really don't see the safety issue.

Some of you here have an amazingly cynical world-view.

~BB~

[BellaBellucci]

Bella "the girl of 1000 excuses" Belluci.
: D

AmericanDream the cynic. Paradoxical?

~BB~

[deee757]

No argument from me, porn sex is legal, prostitution is not. So "get over yourself" when some kid puts a gun to your back telling u to give him your money.

Yes, because that never happens in any other facet of life right? Living in a poor neighborhood actually makes you a lot more like likely to be mugged than working in escorting. The adult business is just like any other business; there's higher end and lower end and as long as you're working the higher end, there's actually very little risk. What you're talking about usually involves streetwalking, pimps, and drugs and if you see bullshit clients, then that's what you'll get: bullshit. If you're seeing lawyers from out of town at the Wyndham hotel, and what happens is between two consenting adults, I really don't see the safety issue.

Some of you here have an amazingly cynical world-view.

~BB~


Legal vs. illegal thats it no world views If you can justify illegal acts, than u are justifying all crimes You keep using the adult industry and prostituing in the same breath. Porn is legal, prostitution is not. Porn is another profession just like any, prostitution is an illegal profession just like any

[BellaBellucci]

Well if you are prostituting its illegal, if u are not, than this does not apply to you. There is no justification for committing crimes. Thats what we people that have grew up in poverty stricken areas have been told our whole lives.

No justification for committing crimes? There are plenty of justifications. Survival, political opposition/protest, the inevitable consequences if you DON'T commit a crime (i.e. refusing to break the speed laws when a life is on the line?). It's all relative. The issue is when one commits an ETHICAL crime when they either allow or cause a person to be hurt. That crosses the line, so man-made laws must be flexible enough to do what they intend to do: protect the largest number of people.

That said, prostitution should be legal. You sound like a sheep of the status quo on the way to the slaughter.

~BB~

[deee757]

Well if you are prostituting its illegal, if u are not, than this does not apply to you. There is no justification for committing crimes. Thats what we people that have grew up in poverty stricken areas have been told our whole lives.

No justification for committing crimes? There are plenty of justifications. Survival, political opposition/protest, the inevitable consequences if you DON'T commit a crime (i.e. refusing to break the speed laws when a life is on the line?). It's all relative. The issue is when commits an ETHICAL crime when they either allow of cause a person to be hurt. That crosses the line, so man-made laws must be flexible enough to do what they intend to do: protect the largest number of people.

That said, prostitution should be legal. You sound like sheep of the status quo.

~BB~

You having two different arguments with your self. I never gave an opinion on weather i think prostitution should be legal, but the fact is that currently it is not. So you feel that people should commit crimes if it is out of necessity? And if you are the victim of one of these crimes do you still feel that way? Is this what u would tell a child? Do you best, but if you cant make it, turn to criminal activity? Is this what u are saying?

[AmericanDream]

No see Bella your still wrong. I was trying to joke with you, but you can't justify crimes like that. You really are just making excuses on why you do or can do anything illegal. There's no way to justify it, if there's any ethics at all they don't just change because of one persons wants or needs.

Bella your trying to justify all these crimes by presenting all different circumstances and trying to make them seem related. Your wrong, the sooner you realize that then the better off you n your boy will be.

Prostitution should be legal and regulated but again I need to tell you to check the TC's post again. I don't know why you keep defending it when there's no need to, not here.

[BellaBellucci]

Well if you are prostituting its illegal, if u are not, than this does not apply to you. There is no justification for committing crimes. Thats what we people that have grew up in poverty stricken areas have been told our whole lives.

No justification for committing crimes? There are plenty of justifications. Survival, political opposition/protest, the inevitable consequences if you DON'T commit a crime (i.e. refusing to break the speed laws when a life is on the line?). It's all relative. The issue is when commits an ETHICAL crime when they either allow of cause a person to be hurt. That crosses the line, so man-made laws must be flexible enough to do what they intend to do: protect the largest number of people.

That said, prostitution should be legal. You sound like sheep of the status quo.

~BB~

You having two different arguments with your self. I never gave an opinion on weather i think prostitution should be legal, but the fact is that currently it is not. So you feel that people should commit crimes if it is out of necessity? And if you are the victim of one of these crimes do you still feel that way? Is this what u would tell a child? Do you best, but if you cant make it, turn to criminal activity? Is this what u are saying?

Actually, you gave the opinion that if it's illegal then it's wrong. That's what you were taught you said, but I think you and I both know that THAT is wrong. I also never said you opined on whether or not it should be legal, I simply stated my OWN opinion on my own volition.

I tell my child that if all legal avenues of advancement are closed to you, then you need to create your own. If that involves a certain level of legal risk, so be it as long as you're not hurting anyone and the risk versus reward ratio is in your favor. By your seemingly authoritarian mentality, you would prefer a person starve to death rather than steal a loaf of bread.

~BB~

[BellaBellucci]

No see Bella your still wrong. I was trying to joke with you, but you can't justify crimes like that. You really are just making excuses on why you do or can do anything illegal. There's no way to justify it, if there's any ethics at all they don't just change because of one persons wants or needs.

Bella your trying to justify all these crimes by presenting all different circumstances and trying to make them seem related. Your wrong, the sooner you realize that then the better off you n your boy will be.

Prostitution should be legal and regulated but again I need to tell you to check the TC's post again. I don't know why you keep defending it when there's no need to, not here.

I'll stop defending it when you stop attacking it. Unlike you, some of us actually have sympathy for those in the life. You should try it.

This started because you said ESCORTING was illegal. Now are we talking about escorting or prostituting because those are two totally different things.

~BB~

[BellaBellucci]

No see Bella your still wrong. I was trying to joke with you, but you can't justify crimes like that. You really are just making excuses on why you do or can do anything illegal. There's no way to justify it, if there's any ethics at all they don't just change because of one persons wants or needs.

Bella your trying to justify all these crimes by presenting all different circumstances and trying to make them seem related. Your wrong, the sooner you realize that then the better off you n your boy will be.

Prostitution should be legal and regulated but again I need to tell you to check the TC's post again. I don't know why you keep defending it when there's no need to, not here.

See my most recent post to deee757. 'Crime' is a relative term and you know it.

~BB~

[deee757]

Well if you are prostituting its illegal, if u are not, than this does not apply to you. There is no justification for committing crimes. Thats what we people that have grew up in poverty stricken areas have been told our whole lives.

No justification for committing crimes? There are plenty of justifications. Survival, political opposition/protest, the inevitable consequences if you DON'T commit a crime (i.e. refusing to break the speed laws when a life is on the line?). It's all relative. The issue is when commits an ETHICAL crime when they either allow of cause a person to be hurt. That crosses the line, so man-made laws must be flexible enough to do what they intend to do: protect the largest number of people.

That said, prostitution should be legal. You sound like sheep of the status quo.

~BB~

You having two different arguments with your self. I never gave an opinion on weather i think prostitution should be legal, but the fact is that currently it is not. So you feel that people should commit crimes if it is out of necessity? And if you are the victim of one of these crimes do you still feel that way? Is this what u would tell a child? Do you best, but if you cant make it, turn to criminal activity? Is this what u are saying?

Actually, you gave the opinion that if it's illegal then it's wrong. That's what you were taught you said, but I think you and I both know that THAT is wrong. I also never said you opined on whether or not it should be legal, I simply stated my OWN opinion on my own volition.

I tell my child that if all legal avenues of advancement are closed to you, then you need to create your own. If that involves a certain level of legal risk, so be it as long as you're not hurting anyone and the risk versus reward ratio is in your favor. By your seemingly authoritarian mentality, you would prefer a person starve to death rather than steal a loaf of bread.

~BB~

I would tell that person to figure out how to make their own loaf of bread. And your response is why we lose so many of our young, because people are so afraid to struggle to have a better future. "The road to hell is paved with good intentions" Have more belief in yourself, just dont quit because of some struggle. "trouble dont last always"

[AmericanDream]

It's the life you chose...what do you think there's more opportunities in the underworld than in the real legitimate world? Your full of crap and if that's what you told your kid that's terrible. You need to tell him " that stuff I told you about avenues was bullshit. In this world you make who you are, you go to school get good grades and do as your told and you'll do right in this world.
Your condoning doing crimes...whenever it's necessary? So I guess your boy can interpret that however he wants.

Bella "the master manipulator" Belluci... I know people like you, you know your wrong, you just try to get it to fit the way you want it. You can't justify criminal acts and they aren't all related.
When was the last time someone escorted for a loaf of bread????

[BellaBellucci]

Well if you are prostituting its illegal, if u are not, than this does not apply to you. There is no justification for committing crimes. Thats what we people that have grew up in poverty stricken areas have been told our whole lives.

No justification for committing crimes? There are plenty of justifications. Survival, political opposition/protest, the inevitable consequences if you DON'T commit a crime (i.e. refusing to break the speed laws when a life is on the line?). It's all relative. The issue is when commits an ETHICAL crime when they either allow of cause a person to be hurt. That crosses the line, so man-made laws must be flexible enough to do what they intend to do: protect the largest number of people.

That said, prostitution should be legal. You sound like sheep of the status quo.

~BB~

You having two different arguments with your self. I never gave an opinion on weather i think prostitution should be legal, but the fact is that currently it is not. So you feel that people should commit crimes if it is out of necessity? And if you are the victim of one of these crimes do you still feel that way? Is this what u would tell a child? Do you best, but if you cant make it, turn to criminal activity? Is this what u are saying?

Actually, you gave the opinion that if it's illegal then it's wrong. That's what you were taught you said, but I think you and I both know that THAT is wrong. I also never said you opined on whether or not it should be legal, I simply stated my OWN opinion on my own volition.

I tell my child that if all legal avenues of advancement are closed to you, then you need to create your own. If that involves a certain level of legal risk, so be it as long as you're not hurting anyone and the risk versus reward ratio is in your favor. By your seemingly authoritarian mentality, you would prefer a person starve to death rather than steal a loaf of bread.

~BB~

I would tell that person to figure out how to make their own loaf of bread. And your response is why we lose so many of our young, because people are so afraid to struggle to have a better future. "The road to hell is paved with good intentions" Have more belief in yourself, just dont quit because of some struggle. "trouble dont last always"

So you don't have faith in an escort or prostitute to get out of the business, yet you think you can save them by teaching them how to make bread? Wait, not even teach. You said you'd simply 'tell them to figure out how to make bread' or something to that effect. I was using my metaphor literally and you don't seem to be, but figuratively speaking, there ARE some people in the biz who are perfectly employable in a mainstream job, but as I said before, there AREN'T ANY!

What part does everyone not understand? With an unemployment rate around 10% and climbing, again, you're telling me that escorts shouldn't escort to survive just because it's illegal? That they should just suffer more? You have absolutely no sympathy. It makes me want to throw up actually.

~BB~

[tsmandy]

Bella save your breath this conversation is completely asinine.

Unjust laws should be broken, and should be violated. That is the only way to challenge them.

150 years ago the law required all people of African heritage in my part of the country to be publicly whipped once a year, look it up. Sodomy was illegal in many parts of the country up until a couple of years ago, should we have all avoided having sex until the government told us it was ok? Goverments pass laws to preserve the status quo, which sometimes is despicable and monstrous.
Laws criminalizing prostitiution I would argue fall under that category, terrible and monstrous.

I think it is the duty of all free thinking individuals to challenge unjust laws, that is the essence of democracy after all. It is amazing how far people have accepted totalitarian ideologies wrapped in patriotism.

Bullshit.

Fuck the laws, they are selectively applied to maintain the racial/ class hierarchies in this country, and I'm pretty sure I know where TS fall along that line.

[BellaBellucci]

Bella save your breath this conversation is completely asinine.

Unjust laws should be broken, and should be violated. That is the only way to challenge them.

150 years ago the law required all people of African heritage in my part of the country to be publicly whipped once a year, look it up. Sodomy was illegal in many parts of the country up until a couple of years ago, should we have all avoided having sex until the government told us it was ok? Goverments pass laws to preserve the status quo, which sometimes is despicable and monstrous.
Laws criminalizing prostitiution I would argue fall under that category, terrible and monstrous.

I think it is the duty of all free thinking individuals to challenge unjust laws, that is the essence of democracy after all. It is amazing how far people have accepted totalitarian ideologies wrapped in patriotism.

Bullshit.

Fuck the laws, they are selectively applied to maintain the racial/ class hierarchies in this country, and I'm pretty sure I know where TS fall along that line.

Whoa.

I'm speechless. *nodding head in dumbfounded, absolute agreement*

Thank you for that. Please ma'am, may I have another? :):)

~BB~

[deee757]

Bella save your breath this conversation is completely asinine.

Unjust laws should be broken, and should be violated. That is the only way to challenge them.

150 years ago the law required all people of African heritage in my part of the country to be publicly whipped once a year, look it up. Sodomy was illegal in many parts of the country up until a couple of years ago, should we have all avoided having sex until the government told us it was ok? Goverments pass laws to preserve the status quo, which sometimes is despicable and monstrous.
Laws criminalizing prostitiution I would argue fall under that category, terrible and monstrous.

I think it is the duty of all free thinking individuals to challenge unjust laws, that is the essence of democracy after all. It is amazing how far people have accepted totalitarian ideologies wrapped in patriotism.

Bullshit.

Fuck the laws, they are selectively applied to maintain the racial/ class hierarchies in this country, and I'm pretty sure I know where TS fall along that line.


Ok lets just live with no laws than.....yeaaaaaaaa

[AmericanDream]

Bellas still arguing with herself.

[BellaBellucci]

It's the life you chose...what do you think there's more opportunities in the underworld than in the real legitimate world? Your full of crap and if that's what you told your kid that's terrible. You need to tell him " that stuff I told you about avenues was bullshit. In this world you make who you are, you go to school get good grades and do as your told and you'll do right in this world.
Your condoning doing crimes...whenever it's necessary? So I guess your boy can interpret that however he wants.

Bella "the master manipulator" Belluci... I know people like you, you know your wrong, you just try to get it to fit the way you want it. You can't justify criminal acts and they aren't all related.
When was the last time someone escorted for a loaf of bread????

You're putting words in mouth again Strawman (note the capital 'S' because that's my permanent nickname for you).

What I tell my child is: when the system wants you to wither away and die, you either do so or you fight back. Maybe instead of fighting people like me who are trying to free your mind you should fight for the betterment of all society by standing up for justice. THAT is what I teach my son. You should be so courageous. Did you sympathize with the British during the Revolution in a past life too?

Fucking sheeple piss me off. If you want to say that escorting and prostitution (still two separate things although admittedly most people do both) is dangerous because you can be arrested for prostituting, then fine, but don't use the law as some kind of hammer of morality because some of us know the difference between laws, morals, and ethics.

All hail AmericanDream - the mighty defender of the status quo!

~BB~

[deee757]

lol, but i digress, i shared my opinion with out negative talk or name calling, im satisfied

[AmericanDream]

Bella save your breath this conversation is completely asinine.

Unjust laws should be broken, and should be violated. That is the only way to challenge them.

150 years ago the law required all people of African heritage in my part of the country to be publicly whipped once a year, look it up. Sodomy was illegal in many parts of the country up until a couple of years ago, should we have all avoided having sex until the government told us it was ok? Goverments pass laws to preserve the status quo, which sometimes is despicable and monstrous.
Laws criminalizing prostitiution I would argue fall under that category, terrible and monstrous.

I think it is the duty of all free thinking individuals to challenge unjust laws, that is the essence of democracy after all. It is amazing how far people have accepted totalitarian ideologies wrapped in patriotism.

Bullshit.

Fuck the laws, they are selectively applied to maintain the racial/ class hierarchies in this country, and I'm pretty sure I know where TS fall along that line.


Ok lets just live with no laws than.....yeaaaaaaaa

She does have a point...so many bullshit laws these days. There's this guy I really want dead but these bullshit laws make it illegal. The damn guy screwed my wife and they say it's illegal to kill him!!! Can you believe this? I talked to so many officers and none understood me. FUCK THE LAWS!!! DO DRUGS DROP OUT OF SCHOOL KILL PEOPLE AND STEAL!!!

just kidding... :roll:

[BellaBellucci]

Bellas still arguing with herself.

AD still having no argument. I already said we should agree to disagree. You couldn't handle that.

I'm done. I hope the 'law' seriously fucks you over someday. Maybe you'll be accused of a murder you didn't commit or something. Who knows, but if you're found guilty, well, you know, the laws the law.

As to deee757 and the no laws comment. I don't believe in anarchy but you have to admit we have WAY too big a government and WAAAAAAAAAY too many laws on the books.

~BB~

[deee757]

Yea, I hate the police just like anyone else, but I am 30 plus, and a black male with a family to support, so i can not be on the front page dead cause I argued with the law that says i need to wear a seat belt. Being incarcerated or dead does nothing for the people I love.

[AmericanDream]

So Belluci is struggling with survival but on Hungangels posting and it's the laws that has her struggling to survive. What a crock-of-shit.

What laws are these? I mean prostitution is wacky but there is always another way. You can get a job in places all over, your saying they aren't hiring anywhere and that's just bullshit. Maybe your out in East Bumblefuck but I don't think that's the case. Good luck to you and your fam Bella, you seem to have been slammed by the laws before. I think they should change weed laws and some others but I don't see how you're struggling to survive.

[jjhill]

AmericanDream aren't you???? If my memory serves me right lol. If so you need one of those hot hung angel things lol

[tsmandy]

Ok lets just live with no laws than.....yeaaaaaaaa

That is a silly simplification of what I was saying. You cannot present an intelligent rebuttal so you choose to be a goofball. Democracy is predicated on resisting unjust laws, not obeying.

Facist and totalitarian governments are predicated on obedience, regardless of right or wrong.

Anyways, that's my opinion and I'm getting off the computer to go get drunk with my girlfriend. I haven't fucked in a week because I've been recovering from surgery and I'd rather get laid than argue with anyone on line tonight.

So have a good night, maybe I'll check this thread tomorrow, maybe I'll just leave it be.

Bella, next time I'm in LA lets smoke a bowl together. :)

[deee757]

well, guess i have been straightened out

[SoCaliDude]

I often wonder the same Mr F.

Anyone know of any girls who married, went on to have successful careers or possibly raised a family as a stepmom?

Some trans people have their OWN BIOLOGICAL children that they take care of too. Why not just say 'raise a family?' We don't ALL lose our kids in transition and divorce you know!

Just showing some love to the other trans-moms out there! Peace.

~BB~

Bellaucci, it's common knowledge that most homosapien's are capable of reproducing. Thanks for your input but that wasn't what was asked nor what I'm curious to know more about.

Where is Mr F.? He started the threat and now its gone completely off topic. The thread was meant to address TS woman who have transitioned, gone stealth and left the sex industry and here we are debating if prostitution is illegal or not. Save it, and make your argument in front of a judge.

[BellaBellucci]

I often wonder the same Mr F.

Anyone know of any girls who married, went on to have successful careers or possibly raised a family as a stepmom?

Some trans people have their OWN BIOLOGICAL children that they take care of too. Why not just say 'raise a family?' We don't ALL lose our kids in transition and divorce you know!

Just showing some love to the other trans-moms out there! Peace.

~BB~

Bellaucci, it's common knowledge that most homosapien's are capable of reproducing. Thanks for your input but that wasn't what was asked nor what I'm curious to know more about.

Where is Mr F.? He started the threat and now its gone completely off topic. The thread was meant to address TS woman who have transitioned, gone stealth and left the sex industry and here we are debating if prostitution is illegal or not. Save it, and make your argument in front of a judge.

I was merely asking for an expansion on the topic. I know. I'm such a troll. You act like I wanted to talk about rainbows or something.

~BB~

[SarahG]

I never gave an opinion on weather i think prostitution should be legal, but the fact is that currently it is not.

It's not... under certain circumstances.

In some parts of the US prostitution is legal when performed certain ways.

[veriTaS]

As to the second, you're still talking about 'enjoyment' and 'lifestyle.' How about 'employment' and 'income?' Are you offering a feasible alternative? Where are all the REAL jobs? China.


I may not be the best person to recommend alternatives; as I have a good education, and I've never had employment or income issues. I'm not trying to empathize, I'm just sharing what I've learned and observed. And there are always jobs on the market, they may international corporation "slave" jobs...but if some one was wanted it bad enough they could definately make ends meet. Though I think Alyssa said it best:


held down my only job @ the mall from 15 to 19.
then i got the itch for implants.

my girl put me onto cam.
it was more money for less work, and i could work around my school schedule.

and i paid the price for it.
the only man i've loved dumped me for it.

but i wanted the money for those implants (and now other things) more than i wanted him
... or the respect of anyone for that matter.


And if that's how your priorities are structured, awesome. I'm glad you're doing what makes you happy.

[SarahG]

Bella save your breath this conversation is completely asinine.

Unjust laws should be broken, and should be violated. That is the only way to challenge them.

150 years ago the law required all people of African heritage in my part of the country to be publicly whipped once a year, look it up. Sodomy was illegal in many parts of the country up until a couple of years ago, should we have all avoided having sex until the government told us it was ok? Goverments pass laws to preserve the status quo, which sometimes is despicable and monstrous.
Laws criminalizing prostitiution I would argue fall under that category, terrible and monstrous.

I think it is the duty of all free thinking individuals to challenge unjust laws, that is the essence of democracy after all. It is amazing how far people have accepted totalitarian ideologies wrapped in patriotism.

Bullshit.

Fuck the laws, they are selectively applied to maintain the racial/ class hierarchies in this country, and I'm pretty sure I know where TS fall along that line.


Ok lets just live with no laws than.....yeaaaaaaaa

Where did she say not to follow any laws?

If you think the law is right, then follow it. It's that simple.

There are lots of people who refuse to do LEGAL things because they see it as immoral. Just look at the people who refuse to; use contraceptives, have abortions, or play loud music simply because they believe it to be wrong (these are bad examples but the first to come to my mind).

Suppose it was legal to murder people on impulse as of tomorrow. Chances are, most people still wouldn't murder someone.

Do you walk down the street refraining from hitting or killing everyone you see simply because its illegal, or because you don't want to/have no reason to? How many people do you pass in a given day without even considering whether or not you'd want to kill them?

[deee757]

Bella save your breath this conversation is completely asinine.

Unjust laws should be broken, and should be violated. That is the only way to challenge them.

150 years ago the law required all people of African heritage in my part of the country to be publicly whipped once a year, look it up. Sodomy was illegal in many parts of the country up until a couple of years ago, should we have all avoided having sex until the government told us it was ok? Goverments pass laws to preserve the status quo, which sometimes is despicable and monstrous.
Laws criminalizing prostitiution I would argue fall under that category, terrible and monstrous.

I think it is the duty of all free thinking individuals to challenge unjust laws, that is the essence of democracy after all. It is amazing how far people have accepted totalitarian ideologies wrapped in patriotism.

Bullshit.

Fuck the laws, they are selectively applied to maintain the racial/ class hierarchies in this country, and I'm pretty sure I know where TS fall along that line.


Ok lets just live with no laws than.....yeaaaaaaaa

Where did she say not to follow any laws?

If you think the law is right, then follow it. It's that simple.

There are lots of people who refuse to do LEGAL things because they see it as immoral. Just look at the people who refuse to; use contraceptives, have abortions, or play loud music simply because they believe it to be wrong (these are bad examples but the first to come to my mind).

Suppose it was legal to murder people on impulse as of tomorrow. Chances are, most people still wouldn't murder someone.

Do you walk down the street refraining from hitting or killing everyone you see simply because its illegal, or because you don't want to/have no reason to? How many people do you pass in a given day without even considering whether or not you'd want to kill them?


Fuck the laws, they are selectively applied to maintain the racial/ class hierarchies in this country, and I'm pretty sure I know where TS fall along that line.[/quote][/b]

[SarahG]

Bella save your breath this conversation is completely asinine.

Unjust laws should be broken, and should be violated. That is the only way to challenge them.

150 years ago the law required all people of African heritage in my part of the country to be publicly whipped once a year, look it up. Sodomy was illegal in many parts of the country up until a couple of years ago, should we have all avoided having sex until the government told us it was ok? Goverments pass laws to preserve the status quo, which sometimes is despicable and monstrous.
Laws criminalizing prostitiution I would argue fall under that category, terrible and monstrous.

I think it is the duty of all free thinking individuals to challenge unjust laws, that is the essence of democracy after all. It is amazing how far people have accepted totalitarian ideologies wrapped in patriotism.

Bullshit.

Fuck the laws, they are selectively applied to maintain the racial/ class hierarchies in this country, and I'm pretty sure I know where TS fall along that line.


Ok lets just live with no laws than.....yeaaaaaaaa

Where did she say not to follow any laws?

If you think the law is right, then follow it. It's that simple.

There are lots of people who refuse to do LEGAL things because they see it as immoral. Just look at the people who refuse to; use contraceptives, have abortions, or play loud music simply because they believe it to be wrong (these are bad examples but the first to come to my mind).

Suppose it was legal to murder people on impulse as of tomorrow. Chances are, most people still wouldn't murder someone.

Do you walk down the street refraining from hitting or killing everyone you see simply because its illegal, or because you don't want to/have no reason to? How many people do you pass in a given day without even considering whether or not you'd want to kill them?


Fuck the laws, they are selectively applied to maintain the racial/ class hierarchies in this country, and I'm pretty sure I know where TS fall along that line.[/b][/quote]

But that doesn't actually say "do not follow any laws"

[BellaBellucci]

Bella save your breath this conversation is completely asinine.

Unjust laws should be broken, and should be violated. That is the only way to challenge them.

150 years ago the law required all people of African heritage in my part of the country to be publicly whipped once a year, look it up. Sodomy was illegal in many parts of the country up until a couple of years ago, should we have all avoided having sex until the government told us it was ok? Goverments pass laws to preserve the status quo, which sometimes is despicable and monstrous.
Laws criminalizing prostitiution I would argue fall under that category, terrible and monstrous.

I think it is the duty of all free thinking individuals to challenge unjust laws, that is the essence of democracy after all. It is amazing how far people have accepted totalitarian ideologies wrapped in patriotism.

Bullshit.

Fuck the laws, they are selectively applied to maintain the racial/ class hierarchies in this country, and I'm pretty sure I know where TS fall along that line.


Ok lets just live with no laws than.....yeaaaaaaaa

Where did she say not to follow any laws?

If you think the law is right, then follow it. It's that simple.

There are lots of people who refuse to do LEGAL things because they see it as immoral. Just look at the people who refuse to; use contraceptives, have abortions, or play loud music simply because they believe it to be wrong (these are bad examples but the first to come to my mind).

Suppose it was legal to murder people on impulse as of tomorrow. Chances are, most people still wouldn't murder someone.

Do you walk down the street refraining from hitting or killing everyone you see simply because its illegal, or because you don't want to/have no reason to? How many people do you pass in a given day without even considering whether or not you'd want to kill them?


Fuck the laws, they are selectively applied to maintain the racial/ class hierarchies in this country, and I'm pretty sure I know where TS fall along that line.[/b][/quote]

Please just be quiet. You're arguing semantics now. She made her complete position clear and you narrow it down to a broad statement. That's means you're out of arguments with merit, so please just stop Strawman Junior.

~BB~

[MrF]

I just caught up on this thread (which I had started) and the discussion is mostly interesting.

I was not thinking we would discuss the sex industry itself -- there are plenty of threads on HA that do that. Rather, I had this idea that people could share anecdotes or life stories so we could get more insight into the nature of transexualism outside the narrow world of the sex industry. But by its nature, HA is connected to that industry, so maybe it didn't make much sense to ask here and initially it looked like the thread might fade away, but it's taken on a small life of it's own and that's fine.

It is interesting to me to understand better the issues unique to transexualism, and I feel one can get a distorted view from a board like this, despite the very active and often thoughtful discussion.

[veriTaS]

Fuck the laws, they are selectively applied to maintain the racial/ class hierarchies in this country, and I'm pretty sure I know where TS fall along that line.

...the new civil rights movement

"You Need More, I need More...Everybody Needs a Whore"...A Michael Moore Production

Or "Need a Hooker...Vote to Book Her"

Damn people...lighten up

And I'm right there with you Mr. F...if you find a board where this happens, let me know...I don't get on here much, but it seems like this board's pretty much just a promotion tool.

[BellaBellucci]

Ok lets just live with no laws than.....yeaaaaaaaa

That is a silly simplification of what I was saying. You cannot present an intelligent rebuttal so you choose to be a goofball. Democracy is predicated on resisting unjust laws, not obeying.

Facist and totalitarian governments are predicated on obedience, regardless of right or wrong.

Anyways, that's my opinion and I'm getting off the computer to go get drunk with my girlfriend. I haven't fucked in a week because I've been recovering from surgery and I'd rather get laid than argue with anyone on line tonight.

So have a good night, maybe I'll check this thread tomorrow, maybe I'll just leave it be.

Bella, next time I'm in LA lets smoke a bowl together. :)

Smoke a bowl? Girl after this thread I'm going to need an entire blunt all to myself! Geez. lol

When you get down here, hit me up.

~BB~

[MrsKellyPierce]

Umm Bella and Mandy should do a scene together...their intelligence in this thread is a turn on j/k

But some of you men are hypocrites. If porn/escorts/adult industry disgusts you so much, get off HUNGANGELS it is a porn board? AND STOP JACKING OFF TO PORNO AND RENTING OUT ESCORTS...

Furthmore there are plenty of other sites that aren't porn boards that you can join that may better suit what you want cough cough since I mean of course you aren't here for the nude pics and pornstars and escorts that post here I'm sure lol

I understand the thread pertains to girls that aren't in the adult entertainment industry, and as far as that TS Success Stories Website goes. Several of the girls on there have escorted, have been part of the adult entertainment industry, but have done something to stand out and are POST OP. Some are still even actively escorting and in the adult industry world still. You have to be post op to be on that site anyways. There are plenty of pre-op ts's that have done amazing things too, but thats another issue.

If you have escorted, which Peggy you have from what I read. How dare you snub your nose at them. It's okay to say why you did it. It's okay to say the mistakes of it. It's okay to say how it made you feel, but when you start slinging around your opinion of why girls do it and start judging...that my dear is WRONG!

Everyone does it for different reasons. Everyone has their own life, decisions, and conscious to hold. I got into the industry to pay for surgeries. I didn't want to be thirty years old still scrimping to pay for surgeries, hate me because I was weak all you want, but thats why I did it.

Some girls do it for the attention. Some girls do it to pay their bills. Some girls do it just because they enjoy the sex and like the money. There are so many different reasons why every girl does it. I have never been so self involved with myself to guess or assume what someone else thinks and does with their lives!

That is all....

Kisses,

Kelly

[tsmandy]

nice to hear from you Kelly :)

Well said.

To get back to the OP, I have alot of friends who are trans, who are MTF and FTM who are not in the sex industry, and most of them complain to me about how they wish they had the backbone to do what I do, because working a regular job is so shitty. Many of them are unemployed, many of them come to me when rent is due because they know I will help them out. I worked regular jobs before I was in the sex industry, so I think I have a right to talk about this just as much as anyone else.

"Punch the clock, why don't you punch your boss" Dead Kennedys

[veriTaS]

thanks kelly, and you're right...this is a porn/escorting forum. And truthfully, I don't have a problem with either. I just get sick of hearing depressing stories from girls regarding the sex work industry & how it affects them. And I wanted to let girls here and girls that observe this forum, that they have a choice. But u girls know that, I apologize ladies.

And there are a lot of great ladies here. I wish you all well, but I'm gonna move on. And Kelly if u know any other good forums, like u mentioned...I'd appreciate it if u can steer me in the right direction.

Godspeed

[MrsKellyPierce]

Always lovely to talk to you too Mandy! I loved your points on Lukeisback you gave them hell girl! I also worked a 9 to 5 job for years and years and years. I attended college, and graduated. At the end of the month though I barely had enough to do much of anything, much less pay for breast implants, facial surgeries, hormones, and all that jazz.

Fellas remember the girls you look at that are so beautiful, usually got that way by doing adult work. They got the surgeries they needed and hormones they needed typically by Adult work. You are so obsessed with the beautiful girls, but then demean them. Hate on them for the choices they had to make to transition. BOYS...... being born in the wrong body is a fucked up experience, something you have to deal with everyday. The more passable you look the easier you have it of course, but it also helps the transexual feel whole inside and confident with her womanhood. You are filling a void in a way, and thats why so many girls are obsessed with surgeries. They need to see what they want to see in the mirror. SO MANY FORGET that this isn't just a FETISH its a LIFESTYLE for MANY. I find it truly pathetic how you can take part in a community, fuck us, watch us, rent us out, and then have the assumption and gull to say we are gross and vile. You are just as gross. It takes two to tango! Not to mention I know many mainstream working people that do a lot worse things than someone in the industry has ever done. Gentleman, point your fingers at yourself, before you point it at someone else!

Veritas sure dear let me help you. TSGirlfriend.com they don't allow any sex workers or adult content. They have a forum and a chatroom. TSdating.com They also offer a forum and a chatroom. TGIRLTALK I don't know if Steven still has it up, but that is more geared to transexual talk then the adult world. I am sure there are plenty more. I hope that helps! Lastly let me leave saying this to you hon. If you don't want to hear about it, don't click on those threads. There are plenty of positive threads written by the ladies on here too that you could take part of on here. I used to make quite a few what I'd like to call light-hearted threads, but others wanted to call dumb threads lol. I just enjoy the funny side of life so thats what I posted. HungAngels isn't a horrible place, and many of the girls here are quite lovely ladies. You just have to give them a chance, and see past their jobs. Good luck though!

[alyssats]

I started working in corporate world also before good income also. Escorting and porn is not even in my dictionary before.

I started meeting and dating guys whos looking for LTR with TS girls but it seems 99.99% of them are pure bulshit jeje. Theyve just wasted my time, effort, money and hurt my feelings.

Then I found out from other TS girls who emailed me and contacted me "You know girl dont let those guys used you, here in America/Europe they pay $$$ us just to meet TS girls like us. Most of them will just used you better charge them at least youll earn". And thats how I started escorting at least I dont feel being used anymore and earning ;)

[BellaBellucci]

Umm Bella and Mandy should do a scene together...their intelligence in this thread is a turn on j/k

But some of you men are hypocrites. If porn/escorts/adult industry disgusts you so much, get off HUNGANGELS it is a porn board? AND STOP JACKING OFF TO PORNO AND RENTING OUT ESCORTS...

Furthmore there are plenty of other sites that aren't porn boards that you can join that may better suit what you want cough cough since I mean of course you aren't here for the nude pics and pornstars and escorts that post here I'm sure lol

I understand the thread pertains to girls that aren't in the adult entertainment industry, and as far as that TS Success Stories Website goes. Several of the girls on there have escorted, have been part of the adult entertainment industry, but have done something to stand out and are POST OP. Some are still even actively escorting and in the adult industry world still. You have to be post op to be on that site anyways. There are plenty of pre-op ts's that have done amazing things too, but thats another issue.

If you have escorted, which Peggy you have from what I read. How dare you snub your nose at them. It's okay to say why you did it. It's okay to say the mistakes of it. It's okay to say how it made you feel, but when you start slinging around your opinion of why girls do it and start judging...that my dear is WRONG!

Everyone does it for different reasons. Everyone has their own life, decisions, and conscious to hold. I got into the industry to pay for surgeries. I didn't want to be thirty years old still scrimping to pay for surgeries, hate me because I was weak all you want, but thats why I did it.

Some girls do it for the attention. Some girls do it to pay their bills. Some girls do it just because they enjoy the sex and like the money. There are so many different reasons why every girl does it. I have never been so self involved with myself to guess or assume what someone else thinks and does with their lives!

That is all....

Kisses,

Kelly

Hey thanks sweetie. I was getting to the hypocrisy of the 'they want us to be beautiful but they don't want to contribute' thing. And that tidbit about Peggy certainly is interesting. I just thought it would be better to end it. Thanks for saying what I ended up not feeling like saying. All-around hypocrisy FAIL!

Co-sign. Totally.

~BB~

[rockabilly]

Tgirltalk is still up , and Alyssa and ladies i am so sorry that men used you in the past :( but more power to you in pursuing your goals and dreams. Just look to the future and be mindful of the present.

[MrsKellyPierce]

So glad to hear that Steven still has it up, and no Prob Bella, some of these guys burn my biscuits sometimes with their judgements.

[peggygee]

If you have escorted, which Peggy you have from what I read. How dare you snub your nose at them. It's okay to say why you did it. It's okay to say the mistakes of it. It's okay to say how it made you feel, but when you start slinging around your opinion of why girls do it and start judging...that my dear is WRONG!




[ And that tidbit about Peggy certainly is interesting. I just thought it would be better to end it.

Thanks for saying what I ended up not feeling like saying. All-around hypocrisy FAIL!

Co-sign. Totally.

~BB~

Sorry Kelz, there are no snubs to infer, and Bella there are no juicy tidbits.

I've been open and honest about my sexual past, my drug and alcohol
use and abuse, and my transition herstory since my very first post here
on Sept 15th 2006, and have also done so extensively on my own site,
and countless other sites, and it is exactly because of my past that I
write, say, and do the things I do.

For the sake of brevity, I will paraphrase, and re-iterate what I stated here. (http://www.hungangels.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=46805&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=10)


Post 3400


Many of the women that post here seem to have adopted a "victim
mentality."

They believe that society will only allow them to be second class citizens.
That it will not allow them to pursue and obtain job, housing or other
societal rights or to be in loving, caring relationships.

And no this isn't about the ethics or morality of the sex trade. I personally
think that it's empowering and important that women have control over
their bodies, be it over who she has sex with, her surgical choices, or
otherwise.

As a woman of color, who has been full time almost four decades, I do
wonder where my Sisters get the perception and acceptance that it's okay
to be discriminated against and held back.

Sure, I'm aware of "passing privilege", the ability of a transwoman to
blend in and assimilate into mainstream society.

Judging from photos, and from women that I know and have known IRL,
"passing privilege" isn't a problem for quite a few.






There are also women who aren't mad at the world, don't feel victimized,
and that life has given them the shitty end of the stick.

As I close, I want to share with you that I too once felt like many of you.

I felt that society was always going to hold me back. I felt that men only
wanted to use me for a penis receptacle and a cum bucket, and if that
was the case, then I was going to make them pay to do so.

But I've never allowed anyone to tell me where I could or couldn't work,
or live, either because of my race or my gender.

I've been in long term relationships with men, have met families, co-
workers, etc, and have never been a dirty little secret.

Am I better than anyone else, far from it.

I just realized early on that life is what you make it.

....

Now I'm aware that some of my posts can be long-winded, thus I tend
not to post frequently, well it's that and I am very, very busy in the real
world.

But I truly would appreciate if people would read my posts both for their
content and intent.

So no Bella, for me hypocrisy did not faiil, but rather truth and perserverance succeeded.

[rockabilly]

So glad to hear that Steven still has it up, and no Prob Bella, some of these guys burn my biscuits sometimes with their judgements.

That was the first forum i joined :)

[MrsKellyPierce]

Peggy: My mistake then. Thats just how it came off to me and others. Sometimes when you write something, it doesn't always come across the way you planned. It's usually better when you speak these type of issues out in voice/word.

I believe myself and many other girls in the industry will be at a place of peace also one day when they are at the part where they are completely happy with their outside appearance. Now others that enjoy and the attention will never be happy, because they are searching for something other than to look like their female self.

But again I apologize, for my misunderstanding.

[peggygee]

Peggy: My mistake then. Thats just how it came off to me and others. Sometimes when you write something, it doesn't always come across the way you planned. It's usually better when you speak these type of issues out in voice/word.

I believe myself and many other girls in the industry will be at a place of peace also one day when they are at the part where they are completely happy with their outside appearance. Now others that enjoy and the attention will never be happy, because they are searching for something other than to look like their female self.

But again I apologize, for my misunderstanding.

Kelly, thanks for that. :wink:

I realize that we have never actually met, though we have posted together
on this and other forums many times.

I would like to share with you that my words or intentions are never, ever
to hurt another woman.

If anything I try my utmost to be helpful and encouraging, be it with
medical, legal, empoyment or other useful information.

There's not a shady, or catty bone in my body, and my intentions are
altruistic and selfless.

As I shared, I once was a young woman like many of you, trying to figure
out how to transition, assimilate, and make it in the world.

I stumbled alot, made alot of mistakes, didn't really have anyone to guide
me on my path, but eventually I made it.

Thus my desire is to help any girl along that path and get her to her goal
as quickly and painlessly as possible.

So I too apolize if my words were misunderstood, but my intentions were
and are pure.

Be Blessed,
Peg.....

[cantos03]

[quote="tsmandy"]
I've shared alot of the same clients as my GG sex worker friends...And I actually think a whore is a whore...

Funny to see you switch between "sex worker" and "whore" so quickly, but it reminds me of what someone said: "only I can call me a whore."

[buckjohnson]

I know a MTF and she worked in m dept. Everyone seem to know about her transition except me...because I am the type of person who doesn't gossip...Later after the transition breast implants etc...She saw me outside the office and thanked me for speaking out about bigotry and homophobia during an office meeting. I did not know what to say because I did not even know she was going thru it but there were a lot of random ignorant remarks going around.