Too Late To Swap Obama For McCain?

[Ben]

Buyers Remorse

Is It Too Late To Swap Obama For McCain?

By Mike Whitney

May 18, 2009 "Information Clearing House" --- Anyone who has ever wasted good money on a clunker only to drop the transmission 15 minutes after leaving the car-lot, knows the feeling. It's like a swift-kick in the groin followed by weeks of fist-pounding rage. It's called buyer's remorse; "Gawd, I wish I hadn't bought that piece of dogshite!"

There are probably a lot of former-Obama supporters feeling that same agonizing sense despair now that President Rainbow has done an about-face on every campaign promise he made. So much for "truth in advertising", eh?

What a disaster. Did anyone know it was gonna be this bad?

For the record; I didn't vote for Obama because I didn't like the way he backpedaled on wiretapping and because he promised to escalate the war in Afghanistan. (Like everyone else who voted for Ralph Nader; I got loads of grief for it) But that doesn't mean I didn't want Obama to succeed. I did. The country is in too big a mess NOT to hope that he would succeed. But now...?

Let's just forget about the fact that Obama never lifted a finger to stop Israel's two week rampage through Gaza which killed 1,100 unarmed civilians and destroyed much of the critical infrastructure. And let's give him a pass for equivocating on Iran, Georgia, missile defense in East Europe, Cuba, NAFTA, FISA, torture, war crimes, the Employee free Choice Act (EFCA) and any other issue that's important to liberals, progressives, leftists or anyone else who eats with a fork or walks on two legs. And let's excuse Obama for stepping up the air war in Afghanistan even though another 140 Afghan villagers were blown to bits 10 days ago while sitting in their schools, sleeping in their beds or having dinner with their families. (After all, Obama did say he was sorry, didn't he?)

But now Obama is backing off on his promise to withdraw troops from Iraq in 16 months. And, now he's planning to restore Bush's kangaroo courts (Military tribunals) for prisoners at Guantanamo who've never even been formally charged with a crime! And, now, he's threatening to hold some prisoners indefinitely in the U.S. without trial. (http://news.antiwar.com/2009/05/14/obama-mulls-indefinite-detention-without-trial-for-detainees/)

I don't know about you, but I believe that America is based on the idea that every man has certain basic rights, and the most fundamental of all those rights is the right to know why the state has thrown your ass in jail. That's numero uno! It's called habeas corpus and the whole judicial system rests on that one foundation stone. People like Obama, who don't believe in habeas, shouldn't even call themselves "American" in my book because they don't believe in the underlying principles.

Does Khalid Sheik Mohamed--the so-called "9-11 mastermind"-- deserve his day in court?
You're damn right he does! That's how the system works. Deal with it.

Obama is an unprincipled poseur; a snake charmer; a complete phony. No wonder the gushing David Brooks has been singing his praises lately. No wonder Andrew Sullivan calls him the "Neocon in Chief". Heck, even Cheney was talking-up Obama's bloody AfPak policy a few days ago. That says it all, doesn't it?
Here's a blurp from Murdoch's far-right rag, The Wall Street Journal, that sums up Obama perfectly:

"Mr. Obama deserves credit for accepting that civilians courts are largely unsuited for the realities of the war on terror. He has now decided to preserve a tribunal process that will be identical in every material way to the one favored by Dick Cheney."

Hypocrite.

We'd be better off with that doddering old fool McCain. At least with McCain you know what you're getting.

[10th letter]

haha, gives fox news a run for their money for being "fair and balanced"

yeah those damn israeli bastards tore through gaza for the fun of it, in fact i heard obama called to say aim for the heads of the little kids, save bullets...way to give both sides...piece of shit article by a piece of shit

[Congobongo]

And, now he's planning to restore Bush's kangaroo courts (Military tribunals) for prisoners at Guantanamo who've never even been formally charged with a crime!

On the basis that they were never apprehended on US soil, no deportation notices were issued to make them travel to the US and several other western governments were complicit in illegally transferring them to Guantanamo, there is no basis to try them in a civil court, it would just be thrown out...

[BlkJewels]

Blah blah blah blah blah blah

OBAMA 4 life!!!!!!

[Congobongo]

Yeah, bring back this guy, the world was a much safer and open place before Barack :shock:

http://i39.tinypic.com/nzqh48.jpg

[Nowhere]

I am so bored with this. Blah, blah, blah, it's the same old record played forever. Bush or anything resembling him has been proven to be as bad as it gets for this country, so until I see a better alternative, this is just retarded.

I would really love for once, someone to not just regurgitate Hannity and come up with something actually using their own brain. Maybe that would actually fix the GOP, which is at it's weakest point in a very, very long time. Evolve or die.

[Congobongo]

or die.

we're praying...

[a994]

That dude can say what he wants, I'm happy with Obama. Is he perfect? Of course not. Only Jesus Christ is. And Obama has to deal with those in Congress and the Senate who disagree with his policies, same as any other President we've had (although they did roll over for Bush-League after 9/11).

Just give Obama time, and don't expect him to be a miracle-worker.

[GroobySteven]

I'm really happy with Obama so far.
Really happy.

[Trowa]

Damn...can't give a brother 5 minutes with the job before you bash him. We still have another 3 and a half years at least. This long into his first term what was Bush doing? Wasn't he playing golf or some shit?

[Congobongo]

I'm really happy with Obama so far.
Really happy.

lol is that Geordie sarcasm at work?

[GroobySteven]

I'm really happy with Obama so far.
Really happy.

lol is that Geordie sarcasm at work?

No absolutely genuine.

[Congobongo]

Just checking ;P

Yeah, I'm not sure what there is to complain about to be honest, and its amazing the ones that didn't complain through G.W's reign are now so vocal...


btw Seanchai are you a toon fan?

[GroobySteven]

btw Seanchai are you a toon fan?

Unfortunately :-(

[Congobongo]

I'm sure Shearer will cement his place in toon history by pulling it off in the last game, you never know you could send the Mackem's down :wink:

getting slightly off topic :lol:

[GroobySteven]

I'm sure Shearer will cement his place in toon history by pulling it off in the last game, you never know you could send the Mackem's down :wink:

getting slightly off topic :lol:
yeah my brothers a mackam and given their last fixture and Hull's, it could doable. Still shite though - if they go down, might get that fucker Ashley out.

[Congobongo]

Yeah its season deciding games for Sunderland and Hull, I hear Shepherd is ready to buy back from Ashley if they do go down, but thats idle chatter from the prawn sandwich munchers...

[SarahG]

haha, gives fox news a run for their money for being "fair and balanced"

yeah those damn israeli bastards tore through gaza for the fun of it, in fact i heard obama called to say aim for the heads of the little kids, save bullets...way to give both sides...piece of shit article by a piece of shit

If terrorists in Mexico kept shooting rockets at LA and Houston, kidnapping our boarder patrol agents, blowing themselves up in our shopping malls, while being elected into political offices by sympathetic mexican citizens, we'd turn the entire country into glass.

Israel has a natural right to protect themselves. If people don't like that, they should stop electing terrorist organizations like Hamas or Hezbollah into office.

Ok, so there will be and has been collateral damage when Israel strikes back. How come we never hear these mass protests when Islamic fundamentalists accidentally kill other islamic followers by accident while carrying out terrorist strikes? Arab kids have died in the middle east before because of terrorist groups causing violence, but we only ever hear of it when Israel is being blamed.

[Congobongo]

its amazing how people feel sorry for the country with the 3rd largest airforce in the world against impromptu makeshift retaliations.... and a nuclear armed airforce at that....

[SarahG]

its amazing how people feel sorry for the country with the 3rd largest airforce in the world against impromptu makeshift retaliations.... and a nuclear armed airforce at that....

A country would need to be armed to the teeth if they were in Israel's position.

Who people should really feel sorry for, are the little arab children who are killed each time Hezbollah sets off rockets from schools, suburban neighborhoods, and parks... egging the Israelis into a counter attack. They're calculated measures designed, not to kill Israelis, but to kill their own civilians so that they could be paraded around the international news as fake martyrs (http://www.zombietime.com/reuters_photo_fraud/).

[Congobongo]

But the fact the fact that Israel has 400+ nuclear warheads should start to raise questions, I mean its not as if they can nuke Palestine...

[SarahG]

But the fact the fact that Israel has 400+ nuclear warheads should start to raise questions, I mean its not as if they can nuke Palestine...

Lots of countries have nukes, only one has ever actually used them.

[Deimos]

Obama was not the right choice.. that's all I can say.

[alpha2117]

Ahh I love how the right wing is desperate to paint Obama as a failure despite the fact that all the evidence points to him being very competent and handling a very difficult time pretty well.

The truth is Reagan, Bush Snr and Clinton all had competent advisors and sound graps of poilicy. Bush Jr was a disaster whose every move will haunt the US for years to come.

Obama inhereted a disasterous economy
2 ongoing wars
A shattered international reputation for the US
Little long term planning

He has stabilised the economy
Set a path towards extricating the Us out of Iraq
somewhat improved the percepton of the US offshore.
Put in place a long term plan.

I doubt all his decisions will be good ones and he will make his share of mistakes (much as Reagan, Bush Snr and Clinton did) but unlike Bush Jnr he seems to actually understand the concept of cause and effect.

[fitz207]

Ahh I love how the right wing is desperate to paint Obama as a failure despite the fact that all the evidence points to him being very competent and handling a very difficult time pretty well.

The truth is Reagan, Bush Snr and Clinton all had competent advisors and sound graps of poilicy. Bush Jr was a disaster whose every move will haunt the US for years to come.

Obama inhereted a disasterous economy
2 ongoing wars
A shattered international reputation for the US
Little long term planning

He has stabilised the economy
Set a path towards extricating the Us out of Iraq
somewhat improved the percepton of the US offshore.
Put in place a long term plan.

I doubt all his decisions will be good ones and he will make his share of mistakes (much as Reagan, Bush Snr and Clinton did) but unlike Bush Jnr he seems to actually understand the concept of cause and effect.
:claps :claps :claps :claps

[TomSelis]

Face it, the republican party has let out it's death rattle. It's dead.

[chefmike]

Utter nonsense from a Nader ninny. A nattering nabob of negativism.

[sugdaddie69]

No its not to late,you can vote for McCain in 2012,in the meantime support your country and its leader,quit crying.

[hippifried]

Obama was not the right choice.. that's all I can say.It's true that's all you can say, but he was the choice. Right or wrong is for each individual to decide before the next collective choice in 3 1/2 years. We'll see.

Everyone has the right to speak freely.
Nobody has a right to have anyone else pay attention to them.

[fred41]

What I find interesting is that every time someone now criticizes the President people now blame the Right Wing Conservatives...just like previous criticisms were always blamed on the Left Wing Liberals...as if there are no moderates (probably a variation of most of us) in this world.

the OP is clearly not conservative...he voted for Nader...and the rest of his agenda was clearly NOT conservative.

[hippifried]

Personally, I don't buy the cookie cutter 'one size fits all' label definitions. There are left wing conservatives & right wing liberals. It changes from issue to issue. Politics & political ideology is spherical. You can't assume someone's position on an issue based on their position from another issue. Nobody's really in lockstep. Not even the "dittoheads". It doesn't work that way, despite the memes. President Obama has the best chance in decades to blow at least some of this partisan rancor out of the water. If you're going to strive for ideological purity, you're always going to be disappointed. All I ask is a coherent vision & a pragmatic approach.

[TomSelis]

What I find interesting is that every time someone now criticizes the President people now blame the Right Wing Conservatives...just like previous criticisms were always blamed on the Left Wing Liberals...as if there are no moderates (probably a variation of most of us) in this world.

the OP is clearly not conservative...he voted for Nader...and the rest of his agenda was clearly NOT conservative.

Well, see, he said McCain was the better choice.

But I'm just going to go ahead and say something with no proof or evidence at all like some people did.


Uhhhh.....no he's not.

It's ok to be critical, it's not ok to be critical with no facts or real criticisms.

[kittyKaiti]

I regret voting for Obama but the fact is, that there were no other good choices. Obama seemed to be the lesser of multiple evils, McCain team being the worst threat to national security (Sarah Palin). The last thing we need is Palin anywhere near the White House.

I regret voting Obama because he violated the 13th Amendment, a very important one. He introduced HR1388 (GIVE Act) which basically legalized slavery to the government, "compulsory volunteer corps". Not many people seem to have heard about this. All the severe violations of the Constitution seem to go unnoticed. Basically, it states that certain age groups are required to perform a certain amount of hours of MANDITORY VOLUNTEER work (WTF is Manditory Volunteer??). For example, high school kids will be required to do like 100 hours of compulsory volunteer work for a year. College aged people will be required to do like 500 hours and they even have one for senior citizens (elderly people forced into labor???).

I believe the 13th Amendment states "Neither Slavery nor INVOLUNTARY SERVITUDE except as punishment wherein a person has been duly convicted of a crime shall exist within the United States of America."

This law, proposed and introduced and written by Obama and his Administration will cause much disruption and damage to the country, especially when the protests turn to riots and police start dying (already happening). The majority of people are not going to allow the government to force them into labor, especially when they already have school, jobs and lives to deal with. This country is going to fall apart if rights keep being taken away and Obama is NOT helping the situation.

I'm also keeping my eye on the ACTA law which gives law enforcement the right to search personal electronic devices without warrants at any given moment and confiscate them if anything illegal (music, movies, games) is found on them.

[TommyFoxtrot]

McCain is washed up and his daughter is a "Useful Idiot" for the Democrats. He would have been good to have as President around 9/11, but his Time came and went well before the 2008 Primary.

I would have liked to see Mitt Romney or Ron Paul tackling this financial crisis. It seriously looked like McCain had half a platform during the general.

Foreign Policy, Foreign Policy, where the HELL was his Domestic Policy?

[hippifried]

Well I'm from Arizona, & I don't regret voting for Barack Obama at all. Not even a little bit. I knew exactly what I was getting, & my only disappointment is that he hasn't changed his mind on Afghanistan. I don't know why everybody's so wierded out about his policies. He's doing exactly what he told everybody he was going to do before November. There's been a setback or 2. & there'll be more. Nobody's perfect, & the President doesn't control Congress.


Kitty,
I ain't buying that one bit. Did you actually read that somewhere or'd you just pull it out of your ass? Got a source? How about a link? What? You don't think reinstatement of the draft would make the news somewhere? What a crock.

[Ben]

I regret voting for Obama but the fact is, that there were no other good choices. Obama seemed to be the lesser of multiple evils, McCain team being the worst threat to national security (Sarah Palin). The last thing we need is Palin anywhere near the White House.

I regret voting Obama because he violated the 13th Amendment, a very important one. He introduced HR1388 (GIVE Act) which basically legalized slavery to the government, "compulsory volunteer corps". Not many people seem to have heard about this. All the severe violations of the Constitution seem to go unnoticed. Basically, it states that certain age groups are required to perform a certain amount of hours of MANDITORY VOLUNTEER work (WTF is Manditory Volunteer??). For example, high school kids will be required to do like 100 hours of compulsory volunteer work for a year. College aged people will be required to do like 500 hours and they even have one for senior citizens (elderly people forced into labor???).

I believe the 13th Amendment states "Neither Slavery nor INVOLUNTARY SERVITUDE except as punishment wherein a person has been duly convicted of a crime shall exist within the United States of America."

This law, proposed and introduced and written by Obama and his Administration will cause much disruption and damage to the country, especially when the protests turn to riots and police start dying (already happening). The majority of people are not going to allow the government to force them into labor, especially when they already have school, jobs and lives to deal with. This country is going to fall apart if rights keep being taken away and Obama is NOT helping the situation.

I'm also keeping my eye on the ACTA law which gives law enforcement the right to search personal electronic devices without warrants at any given moment and confiscate them if anything illegal (music, movies, games) is found on them.

:claps :claps

[El Nino]

Good post Kaiti. I am very familiar with both pieces of legislature you speak of. Glad to see somebody isn't getting the wool pulled over their eyes.

[hippifried]

Oh, you're familiar? Well every piece of legislation has a number. What is it? C'mon. Back up the lie.

[El Nino]

Figure it out for yourself. Turn off CNN or Fox News and do some reading. I will not spoon feed you. And guess what, it ain't no fabrication.

[Silcc69]

Well I'm from Arizona, & I don't regret voting for Barack Obama at all. Not even a little bit. I knew exactly what I was getting, & my only disappointment is that he hasn't changed his mind on Afghanistan. I don't know why everybody's so wierded out about his policies. He's doing exactly what he told everybody he was going to do before November. There's been a setback or 2. & there'll be more. Nobody's perfect, & the President doesn't control Congress.


Kitty,
I ain't buying that one bit. Did you actually read that somewhere or'd you just pull it out of your ass? Got a source? How about a link? What? You don't think reinstatement of the draft would make the news somewhere? What a crock.

http://redgreenandblue.org/2009/03/23/hr-1388-give-act-forces-mandatory-service-requirement-on-all-young-americans/

That good enough for you?

[hippifried]

Oh I already figured that you clowns don't know what you're talking about. If this legislation you claim to be familiar with existed at all, you'd be linking to it just so you could puff yourself up like a peacock. It's a bullshit lie & you know it.

[DL_NL]

No its not to late,you can vote for McCain in 2012,in the meantime support your country and its leader,quit crying.
That is, if he's still alive by then...

From a European POV- this is the first time in years that the US is actually in the news in a positive way. There isn't a week without any good news about something being decided or done. A couple of more years of Bush and his henchmen and the US would have been a third world country.

I accept that Obama is not perfect, but he seems to be doing a bloody good job so far seeing the mountains he has to climb.

[Silcc69]

Oh I already figured that you clowns don't know what you're talking about. If this legislation you claim to be familiar with existed at all, you'd be linking to it just so you could puff yourself up like a peacock. It's a bullshit lie & you know it.

Did you not see the link I just provided?

[chefmike]

Not so fast, chicken littles!

From factcheck.org re hr 1388:

http://www.factcheck.org/askfactcheck/is_congress_creating_a_mandatory_public_service.ht ml

[chefmike]

Forced Public Service


Some Internet postings claim the bill says the government must come up with plans for a “mandatory service requirement for all able young people,” but that phrase is nowhere to be found in either the House-passed bill or the Senate version.

The bill as introduced in the House, however, did call for examining whether this would be a good idea. It called for a congressional commission to "address and analyze" several topics, including "issues that deter volunteerism" and how they can be overcome, how expanding international public service might affect diplomacy and foreign relations, and "[w]hether a workable, fair, and reasonable mandatory service requirement for all able young people could be developed, and how such a requirement could be implemented in a manner that would strengthen the social fabric of the Nation." The commission would also investigate "[t]he need for a public service academy, a 4-year institution that offers a federally funded undergraduate education with a focus on training future public sector leaders."

All of that language is now gone. To be clear, the original bill didn't call for a mandatory public service program, but called for the exploration of whether one could be established. But the entire section on creating a "Congressional Commission on Civic Service" was stripped from the bill.

It is part of a separate piece of legislation, introduced on March 11 (two days after H.R. 1388 was introduced) by Democratic Rep. Jim McDermott. H.R. 1444 was referred to a House committee. No other action has been taken on the bill. McDermott introduced a similar bill in 2007 and it died, never making it out of a subcommittee.

Furthermore, Hatch, a Republican cosponsor of the Senate's national service bill, said on the floor of the Senate that nothing in the legislation called for mandatory service:


Hatch, March 23: Consistent with our All-Volunteer Army and volunteer opportunities and individuals' choice in communities, nothing in this legislation is mandatory. This bill simply provides more Americans more choices and opportunities to give back to their neighborhoods and their country all through the means which they freely choose.


The only mention of anything being mandatory in either of the bills passed by the House or Senate is in the definition for "youth engagement zone program." Such a program is eligible for funding under the bill, and it is defined in the House bill as one that provides school-based or community-based "service learning opportunities" in which "(A) not less than 90 percent of the students participate in service-learning activities as part of the program; or (B) service-learning is a mandatory part of the curriculum in all of the secondary schools served by the local educational agency." That's not a call for making public service mandatory, but rather an explanation of one type of program that can get money under the bill. The Senate bill does not include the word "mandatory," saying instead that "service-learning is a part of the curriculum."

[chefmike]

We have received several inquiries about this bill, which has passed both the House and Senate with significant bipartisan support. Some e-mails and conservative Web sites say it requires the government to draw up plans for a “mandatory service requirement for all able young people.” Others say the bill forbids participants from attending church.

These claims are false. Neither the House-passed bill nor the Senate-passed version says these things.

[chefmike]

Careful. El Nino! These are facts! Read them at your own risk! They may just cause a crack in the fantasy world that you inhabit.

[hippifried]

The law in question is a revision of the national service act that includes selective service. We stopped drafting people into the military 30 years ago, but the selective service system didn't go away. Of course it's mentioned in the bill, but there's no corelation between mandatory & volunteer service. There's no dots to connect.

You toons are so damn gullible. Somebody posts an op/ed on the makinshitup blog & you fall all over yourselves trying to convince everybody else that it must be true because it sounds conspiratorial. The blogosphere is the worst possible source for accurate information. Get off the email list from usostupidyoubuythisbs.com.

[kittyKaiti]

I went on a government website and read the bill (HR 1388) which at the time did state manditory service and even gave the number of hours of annual service required (500 hours for college age people, 100 hours for high school students). I didn't read it on some shitty infowars site.

And ACTA is also very real and Europe is already working on instating the law.

[SarahG]

I went on a government website and read the bill (HR 1388) which at the time did state manditory service and even gave the number of hours of annual service required (500 hours for college age people, 100 hours for high school students). I didn't read it on some shitty infowars site.

And ACTA is also very real and Europe is already working on instating the law.

I am not sure on those hours, but I do remember reading the same thing.

When running Obama ran on (of several ideas) the idea of requiring students to engage in volunteer-type work in exchange for "tax credits." This plan was detailed at change.gov under the title "America Serves."

As the plan was originally described on his website of the time (change.gov), this would have REQUIRED students of middle school age and over of doing a certain amount of hours a year in approved volunteer work, the amount of hours would increase by age bracket, and for college students it would be a required part of the federal financial aid packages awarded to students.

By the last part, what this meant was if you were getting financial aid from the feds, part of that aid would be having to do a certain amount of hours of work, for up to a $4,000 tax credit. What kind of work it was, was never stated but Obama did state during the campaign that it wouldn't be like the work studies schools currently employ where students are paid to "hang out" in libraries. The current version of change.gov has reinforced this thought, saying that Obama wants a cap on the amount of money existing work study aid can be used for work in libraries, dining halls etc of colleges.

I was kind of on the fence about this when it was initially made public, because of the pay. When I was working in high school I was working the max amount of hours per week allowed by child labor laws, at $5.25/hr, and of that I lost somewhere around 20% of that to taxes, another 20% to transportation costs (gas, insurance etc for my car). I would be lucky to bring home 2800 a year, and of what I could bring home- that's what allowed me to pay for hrt while I was at college (diy and then getting it through slips after that). $4,000 tax free? I would have been jumping with joy for a job like that back then (depending on what was involved work-wise, I do have a lot of health problems to keep in mind- Obama's persistent ranting that it not be "work in libraries" makes the cynical side of me wondering if he's envisioning CCC-style manual labor with tent cities, hand tools, and outdated equipment to build parks & sidewalks).

Once the conservatives started bitching about the plan, Obama kept rephrasing it to try to keep it from becoming controversial. Back during the election period & the few weeks following it, change.gov's listing for this service plan changed several times. The current version states:


America Serves

"When you choose to serve -- whether it's your nation, your community or simply your neighborhood -- you are connected to that fundamental American ideal that we want life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness not just for ourselves, but for all Americans. That's why it's called the American dream."

As the new administration takes shape, Barack Obama and Joe Biden will call on Americans from every walk of life to serve. President-elect Obama and Vice President-elect Biden will expand national service programs like AmeriCorps and the Peace Corps and will create new service organizations to meet the nation's challenges head on:

* a Classroom Corps to help underserved schools
* a Health Corps to serve in the nation's clinics and hospitals
* a Clean Energy Corps to achieve the goal of energy independence
* a Veterans Corps to support the Americans who serve by standing in harm's way

Obama and Biden will call on citizens of all ages to serve. They'll set a goal that all middle school and high school students engage in 50 hours of community service a year, and develop a plan for all college students who engage in 100 hours of community service to receive a fully-refundable tax credit of $4,000 for their education. Obama and Biden will encourage retiring Americans to serve by improving programs available for individuals over age 55, while at the same time promoting youth programs such as Youth Build and Head Start.

The Obama-Biden administration's volunteer initiatives are still taking shape, but take a moment now to let us know that you're interested, and we'll keep you posted on all the latest developments.

Enter your information below to let us know you're interested in serving the nation -- and contributing your energy and efforts to confronting the problems we face together.


Bold added by me.

This wording is nothing like the first version of the plan posted on that website.

Unfortunately, I could not find a cached version (http://www.google.com/#q=cache+http%3A%2F%2Fchange.gov%2Famericaserves%2 F&hl=en&safe=off&sa=2&fp=cdeTYf75m8M) of the website as it appeared c-Early November 2008. Change.gov was briefly logged on archive.org's "way back machine," but it appears the feds told them to stop logging change.gov and its no longer in their databases. Some blogs have claimed to have saved the html files, but I am not sure they'd be credible...

IF using blogs as a source, this is one of the earlier descriptions for the plan:


The Obama Administration will call on Americans to serve in order to meet the nation’s challenges. President-Elect Obama will expand national service programs like AmeriCorps and Peace Corps and will create a new Classroom Corps to help teachers in underserved schools, as well as a new Health Corps, Clean Energy Corps, and Veterans Corps. Obama will call on citizens of all ages to serve America, by developing a plan to require 50 hours of community service in middle school and high school and 100 hours of community service in college every year. Obama will encourage retiring Americans to serve by improving programs available for individuals over age 55, while at the same time promoting youth programs such as Youth Build and Head Start

Bold emphasis added by me.

The pay isn't really an issue. Conscription is still conscription, even if the pay is good. I think that the original wording was a mistake in terminology, I cannot picture Obama being stupid enough to think that he could require all middle school aged students to engage in civil service. That shit my fly in places like Israeli where 2 year service starting at age 16 is a required part of citizenship, but it would be pure political suicide to try that here. I can't even imagine the backlash of telling the suburbanite highschoolers who don't have to work that the feds are demanding they do 50 hrs a year of volunteer work (nevermind at a pitiful $10 an hour). I've got a bridge to sell to anyone who'd buy that would go over well...

[hippifried]

Thanks Sarah. I was gnashing my teeth so much that I couldn't think of anything but more insults. You saved me from my own rashness.

There's no direct tuition credits? Just curious. That used to be part of the GI bill, but I don't know if it is anymore. It's one of my own personal tweaks, but it bothers me that everything is done in the form of taxes nowadays.


BTW: I still think the internet really is a big truck.

[SarahG]

Thanks Sarah. I was gnashing my teeth so much that I couldn't think of anything but more insults. You saved me from my own rashness.


Well, the original plan's terminology (albeit most likely in error) would be fairly frightful to some people. It sure sounded like civil service conscription in the original versions.

Requiring all students, no exceptions, to work 100 hours doing civil service jobs that only pay $10/hr is a hard sell, even if its tax free, to people who either don't need to work, or are already working jobs that pay above that. For instance this girl I knew the first semester of college was a bar tender and easily made 30 an hour when including tips... to tell an already time-pressed student to sacrifice time AND money they desperately need to volunteer for 100 hours a year, "just because the president says so" will come off as abrasive.

The time can be a bigger issue than the money for some majors, I briefly went for an edu cert (teaching cert) and although this varies with the state, basically they want you to go to a k-12 classroom to "observe" public schooling,* 20 hours of observation time PER edu course, which must be completed before completing each edu course during the semester... and then after you've done something in the neighborhood of 200 hours of that unpaid time "observing," they have you student teach (for hundreds of hours of unpaid "experience"). So figure a normal courseload of 15 to 18 credit hours, 20-40 hours per semester of "observation" (depending on how many EDU courses you take at once), 5-15 hours a week of work studies for the financial aid package, say 5-hours a week doing assignments/papers, 5-15 hours a week doing your normal job (be it retail, sales, bartending etc), 5 hours/day sleeping... and time starts to get tight real fast even without 100 hours/year of civil service.

When I started college I was doing no less than 24 credit hour course loads, and ultimately said "fuck this" and dropped both the edu cert, and the work studies in my financial aid package (opted to use private student loans to makeup what I lost by refusing the work study "aid") just to have enough time for everything else, and I had no social life to speak of at the time.
Basically, I was paying to have more time by refusing those work studies.


The downside to Obama's plan, as I see it:

1- We have no idea what such a proposed plan would be like, in practice. The nice thing about student employment is its usually fairly responsibility free, fairly free from thinking, and fairly easy to find. Pay might not be great, but its usually easy enough to find short term employment as a student so if an employer treats you like shit, you can always say "fuck off" and go find someone else. The problem is you can't do that if you're being forced to work for a specific employer (in this case, the feds) against your will (or because its financially impossible to refuse that employment). I have heard some people say (I don't know first hand) that the existing volunteer for pay government groups like the peace corps are very macho-oriented and not very gay-friendly, nor are they trans-friendly. Some people would have legitimate reasons not to go into the peacecorps... even if they'll aid-dependent, cash strapped college students.

2- Even if its voluntary, the plan as I understand it is nothing more than a reformed & expanded version of existing "work studies." Since it would be part of the aid packages, those who object to the work (whatever type of work it is) for whatever reason (be it time limitations, money issues, health problems, etc) would have to go further into debt to be able to turn down the aid. I would have become another 4 grand per year in debt in order to just be able to say "sorry, but I just don't have the actual time to spend 50 hours per semester doing labor for the president." That's 16 grand more debt for someone who (for whatever reason) must turn down the so-called aid.


The way I see it, Obama is looking at the billions we spend a year in financial aid so people can attend colleges, and he's seeing it as if the students are getting something for nothing. They're getting all this financial aid to help pay their way threw school, but they're not contributing much in the way of tangible "product or service." The point he's missing, is that in order to be competitive as a country we NEED college graduates, we need teachers, scientists, engineers and so on- and that financial aid is supposed to be an investment which will be paid back by college grads once they find "real work" and start paying more in taxes.


There's no direct tuition credits? Just curious. That used to be part of the GI bill, but I don't know if it is anymore. It's one of my own personal tweaks, but it bothers me that everything is done in the form of taxes nowadays.

As far as I know, nothing has yet changed, and tuition credits are still being handled the way the GI bill always has. The reason for this is because they're TUITION credits. They're only supposed to be used for attending schools (or a few other approved uses). They can't control how the money is spent if they just give everyone who qualifies a government check... and its in their best interest NOT to just pay it out like that, because most people who qualify for the program never use it- which keeps the fund from being depleted. The amount the GI bill pays out keeps increasing, because most people who qualify never take anything out of the fund. The recent change, that I've heard, is now the military has toyed with expanding the GI bill to pay out money for business ventures. Do your time, and you can take out just as much and put it into college OR starting your own business (provided your business plan gets approved).

I really don't know if this civil service plan of Obama's will work the same way or not. He has been saying tax credit, not tuition credit. IF he means tuition credits, then he really dodged a bullet by rephrasing his original version of the plan. So many Americans NEVER attend college, it would be quite a bit draconian to REQUIRE they work 50 to 100 hours per year during half of k-12, for money they'd never be able to claim.. or worse, money that will end up going to the college bound middle class instead of the poor who have no college aspirations (as the GI bill currently operates). Even for people who plan to go on to college, say they do all the volunteer work they're eligible and find that they're not going to go to college... does that mean all that money they earned they'll never see? Hopefully by tax credit he means a simple gov-check payout, so it doesn't matter if people end up not going on to college later.

The other concern I have is that what most students need in the short term is cash for textbooks, gas, clothing, food, etc. If this aid is just a big check that goes straight to the school, then students are losing 50 hours per semester that they would be working for cash, so they'll just end up INCREASING their private student loans to cover the stuff (textbooks, food, gas etc) that they would have been able to afford before using their private market jobs. And most likely, the corrupt big businesses known as universities would simply turn around and raise the tuition by 4 grand a year, making the whole thing pointless.

But, since the details aren't hammered out by any stretch of the imagination, it would be unfair to criticize a plan that doesn't yet exist for such avoidable glitches.



* "Observation." What they really meant here was that the teacher of the classroom you'd be "observing" was the observer. Although they made it look like you were going to sit in a corner to take notes on the public schooling experience, it was all lies. The college went so far as to giving the school a flier a head of time basically instructing the school to use the edu major as if they're there for student teaching. You would be required to therefore spend 20 hours student teaching per edu course, but they couldn't call it that because that would make the school liable if you said or did something stupid due to a lack of experience as a teacher... so they'd to cover their asses would say that the edu major is there to watch and find "what to do" so they'll have the experience to be a good & safe student teacher 3 years down the road...needless to say I was left more than a bit jaded by the whole thing.




BTW: I still think the internet really is a big truck.

Well, you're wrong. It's not a big truck, it's a series of tubes. Like this one (450px-6SN7russ.JPG). When assembled into The Internet, it's basically a larger version of that giant fire-hazard Spock created in that one episode where they got trapped in the 1950's.

[tstv_lover]

BTW: I still think the internet really is a big truck.

Well, you're wrong. It's not a big truck, it's a series of tubes. Like this one (450px-6SN7russ.JPG). When assembled into The Internet, it's basically a larger version of that giant fire-hazard Spock created in that one episode where they got trapped in the 1950's.

Which IMO is one of the best episodes - a real classic!

[hippifried]

I really don't see the confusion. When you sign up at myspace or porn central, there's some fields with an asterisk & there's a notation that says those fields are "MANDATORY". The word doesn't equate to slavery, even in law. You're compelled to do specific things in order to achieve specific goals. If you want the credit, a minimum number of service hours are "MANDATORY".

This isn't reaction to wording on the government website. It's fear mongering by reactionaries in the fringes of the blogosphere. Then it's spread to places like this by the terminally gullible. The parrots aren't really lying. They just don't know what they're talking about because they're parrots. For example: How long was Mancow shrieking about how torture was no big deal before his 6 second stint on the waterboard? Same difference. It's just loudmouthed wannabe entertainers trying to drum up people to pay attention to them so they can sell ads.

So now the Republicans have recruited the Birchers for source material. Curiouser & curiouser.

This program is just an expansive bolstering of the Americorps program. That was supposed to be the peace corps at home. Clinton could never get funding for it. Bush expanded it into the "private sector" by bringing in & funding faith based organizations. Obama's looking to beef it up with philanthropic organizations from all over.

This isn't internship for credit hours as far as I understand it. The general object is to get things done at minimal cost while encouraging higher education, but I don't think educational intent is a prerequisite. Tuition tax credits are an incentive to draw young energetic people into the program, but it's not really an education program per se'. It's about getting people organized, using private philanthropy, community or issue organizations, & the government as a standardized central clearing house bringing projects & volunteers together. It's complex & ambitious. We'll see. There's no requirement to join the program or perform community service in order to further one's education. The options you have now aren't going away, but the program can expedite the process. Like all government aid programs, you can take it or leave it. It all depends on how much you want that incentive.

These ideas have been around for decades. We already have experience with programs of this sort. The GI bill for instance. The problem is in the mindset. We've got multiple generations of Americans who've never conceived of "service" outside of the military. When someone brings up the idea of civilian service at home, all the cold war rhetoric comes spewing forth like a busted sewer main. The ideological rancor is disgustingly stupid. We're the most powerful nation the world has ever seen. Yet in the land of free expression, so many Americans are scared to death of buzz words. What's up with that?


Now Nicky Tesla has his place in history, & the internet is totally tubular for sure, but we have Freddy Cannon.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5HgQ8YXrmk

[SarahG]

I really don't see the confusion. When you sign up at myspace or porn central, there's some fields with an asterisk & there's a notation that says those fields are "MANDATORY". The word doesn't equate to slavery, even in law. You're compelled to do specific things in order to achieve specific goals. If you want the credit, a minimum number of service hours are "MANDATORY".

Apples to oranges. You don't have to be a member of myspace, or porn central.

The original language on the change.gov website simply put stated that students starting in middle school would be REQUIRED to do labor for the government in exchange for "tax credits."

Not "students wanting tax credits will have to do labor under this program."

There's a huge difference there, as described one way its a plan of civil service conscription of our student populations, as described the other way its a plan of voluntary civil service in exchange for tax/tuition credits.

I don't believe the intention was ever to create a civil service conscription plan, as far as what I think, I think it was simply some peon being given the task of writing the change.gov description of the plan, and doing a piss poor job of it.


This isn't reaction to wording on the government website. It's fear mongering by reactionaries in the fringes of the blogosphere. Then it's spread to places like this by the terminally gullible. The parrots aren't really lying. They just don't know what they're talking about because they're parrots.

But it's not entirely fear mongering, there can be disastrous consequences when politicians approve proposals or bills without taking the time to READ them!

Just look at the chaos and problems that occurred back when congress tried to "fix" the senior prescription drug plan under social security.

Reality is that we have more politicians than statesmen, and of those politicians- a good chunk of them have no problem passing poorly written, unclear, counter productive legislation... and when that happens, who knows what the unintended consequences of said bills could be. I honestly believe that without the spin & fear mongering, our incompetent politicians on the hill would eventually accidentally pass a piece of legislation doing something utterly stupid & crazy (for instance, accidentally making a voluntary service plan a conscription service plan).



Now Nicky Tesla has his place in history, & the internet is totally tubular for sure, but we have Freddy Cannon.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5HgQ8YXrmk

I'll call your "Transistor Sister" and raise with a twisted transistor (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b40HQve1F-E).

[hippifried]

Apples & oranges are both fruit. They have a lot more in common than this mountain of bullshit & the molehill it was created from.

Sorry, but I just can't buy the idea that the general public is stupid enough to panic over this, or even get confused. There may have been some sloppiness in the language at first, but it's not like he hasn't been talking about this incessantly for over a year & a half. His detracters comb through everything, looking for something to nail him with. It doesn't take much to get the conspiracy nuts going. They're already running around in circles, telling everybody the sky is falling.



But it's not entirely fear mongering, there can be disastrous consequences when politicians approve proposals or bills without taking the time to READ them!I don't buy that excuse for even half a second. They read the bills. Not only do they read them themselves, but every member of Congress has a staff of lawyers who read them. Each party has another pool of lawyers who read the bills. The lawyers from each party in each chamber of the Congress get together & argue every clause with the lawyers from the Whitehouse. Any politician who tells you that they don't know what's in a bill they're voting on is lying. If there's a remote possibility of a grain of truth to such a stupid statement, the only sensible retort is 'Get the fuck out of my Congress you incompetent boob!'.

It's all fear mongering. That's the simplest way to create misdirection while putting a hand in your wallet. The conspiracy nuts are just unwitting dupes in the plots they shriek about. None of the massive ripoff would be possible without the Alex Jonses & Glen Becks of the world. They're all politicians. Statesman is just a title we give lame duck politicians in their last elective stint before retirement.