Academic Discrimination. I'm gonna explode.

[BrendaQG]

:soapbox
I have not spoken or written of this publicly anywhere. This is as good a place as any.

:x :x :x

I have been egregiously discriminated against by the University of Illinois at Chicago. For three years I went there as a non-degree seeking graduate student. That is what one does when one's previous grades were not, at that moment good enough to get into graduate school. After a rough start I finished with a B+ GPA. In some subject areas I actually had straight A's.

However when It came time to apply to their PhD. program, or to similar programs at other schools a problem arose. I asked the very same professors I got A's and B's from for letters of recommendation. They would not give them. Well, actually, one did give me letters to where ever, another only gave me one for UIC ,the last one who I got A's from refused to give any letters for anywhere. I ended up getting enough letters (3) to apply to UIC. After doing this, giving me only letters to UIC. They then denied my application, the same people who gave me letters denied my application.

So I went to Lambda legal.... They could not or would not help me. :frustrated

So I went to the Illinois Department of Human rights... after some initially encouraging signs they told me that all they can do is have me sign a waiver and the department head will highly recommend that the letters be written... but I can't review them myself. You know to see if they were telling people my T, the revelation of which is no body's business but my own. *:? The person I was working with there actually had the gall to say to me "These people are professionals I have trouble believing that they would discriminate against you based on your sexual preference."

After she said that I was done. :frustrated They fundamentally did not comprehend what I was dealing with in so many ways. My personal issue or knowing the type of people involved. I'm not talking about shit kickers or teamsters here... I'm talking about the top 2% of brains. They don't call you a faggot, or a sissy, or a fruit to your face. Yet it seems that is all the systems that are supposed to protect us are equipped to handle. That and issues of a transwoman using the restroom. :-/ Fat lotta good that does me, god if that was my biggest worry...

I have student loans to pay now, I'm going to another school that cost $$$$$$$$$$$. So if you see me working don't wonder why. There are just some things our culture is willing to accept people like us doing science is not one of them. I just wanna give up. :cry: :frustrated **


*Yeah some bitches will say that my T is obvious every way. It takes one to know one sista. We always recognize a member of our club. The general population is a different story, they just don't go around thinking "is she or isn't she". Or they miss the more subtle cues.
**:frustrated I am well aware of people in science who are trans. However with only one exception that I know of, an astronomer from England, they all were scientist, then became trans. Their may be others for whom that order was reversed. But I am not lucky enough to be one of them. cest le vie.

I just had to get that off my chest to someone somewhere.

[Alyssa87]

i am so so sorry.
this almost brought me to tears : (
seriously.

i dont know what to say.
this truly has hurt my heart.

[Alyssa87]

maybe you could try to contact the transpeople in science you mentioned, and have them help you in some way.

[jaycanuck]

I'd seek legal council

[flabbybody]

was the refusal to write the recommendation letters definitely because of your t status or could it have been due to other non related factors, like the fact that you were in a non-degree program? It seems like a very difficult thing to prove. How can people in higher education be so prejudiced and judgemental when they're ultimately resposible for preaching the exact opposite?

[thx1138]

Maybe you're being a Muslim had something to do with it.

[ALYSINCLAIRxxx]

Seriously, they set themselves up for a legal mess. I highly suggest talking to a lawyer. I know there are many, many solid attorneys in Chicago. :)

Don't give up!

[ed_jaxon]

Sorry to hear about the set back Brenda.

Its cool to be pissed for a little bit but then you have to devise a game plan and get back after it.

I speak from experience. When you get the skinny envelope or go through what you just have it is natural to be real pissed and to look for people and places to (legitimately) place blame. It is important to do that to be able to clear your head.

Then you have to come up with a blueprint for getting you to where you want to be. You found the backdoor into the graduate program for those of us with not so great undergrad grades so mad props for that.

Academia (and you know this) is elitist, prejudiced and heavily protected. It might be your gender, your race or your faith but in the end it will always be something.

Personally, I have been doing my groundwork for my try at a doctorate. Great grades and my innate mf charm ain't gonna cut it. I need allies. So I am talking to people now before I apply to get the lay of the land and where the backdoors are. I am also getting others vested in my success, thanking them profusely for the smallest kindness and being constantly in the face of those who make the decisions. They know me and my backstory. And even with this prep, I am prepared for it to take a couple of tries to get to my goal.

Point being.....feel the blow, take a minute and then get at it. And don't think you won't be just as harsh a defender as the rest once you are in.

There's a reason why its hard to get there. Education is worth it.

[JohnnyWalkerBlackLabel]

Not trying to sound fucked up but have you prepared for what you will do when all of this advice you're getting does nothing to help?

Seriously, I commend you for seeking your doctorate but you KNOW the world we live in and you KNOW how fucked up individuals can be, and legal issues aside you can't force someone to sign a document to back you. You have to know that Brenda.

Have you looked into any of the online doctorate programs that are beginning to be offered by some institutions? Not saying that's an avenue you HAVE to take, but let's be honest you could find a program you want and get your doctorate without any scrutiny.

Last thing, you've accomplished alot, with the degrees you currently have the only things keeping you from having a successful career at this point are work experience and yourself.

[BrendaQG]

Thank you all for the kind words.

I did contact lawyers last year when this first came up. Lambda legal gave me a list of about 20 lawyers who might take such a case. 6 called back. Each one said that they would only take my case once I got a finding of fact in my favor from the Illinois Human Rights Commission....a court set up just for hearing discriminaton cases. Basically they did not want to touch it.

JWBL those online universities don't offer physics as one of their programs. There are experiments that need to be done, that takes access to laboratories. Even as a theoretical physicist one needs to do experiments as part of their education. Ed_jaxon is right about this being a very elitist field too, which would turn it's nose up as such a degree if it existed.

My next play is to go to this other school. Which I got into, degree status, based only on my grades, no letters. To get my MS here and get into a PhD program somewhere that they won't make me take a bunch of classes... like in Europe. But I'm not borrowing to pay for anything any more. I don't want to be another educated life long debt slave. I'd rather die.

[SarahG]

:soapbox
However when It came time to apply to their PhD. program, or to similar programs at other schools a problem arose. I asked the very same professors I got A's and B's from for letters of recommendation. They would not give them. Well, actually, one did give me letters to where ever, another only gave me one for UIC ,the last one who I got A's from refused to give any letters for anywhere. I ended up getting enough letters (3) to apply to UIC. After doing this, giving me only letters to UIC. They then denied my application, the same people who gave me letters denied my application.

Did they say why they (the ones that refused to write letters of rec) weren't going to write you one? Did the one who wrote a letter only to UIC do so intentionally or was that just a fuckup? I've had some professors that were so disorganized that if they did anything right the first time around, it was an accident....

Did you talk to the dean, your adviser, and department heads about this yet? It probably won't do anything, but if they think you're jumping straight from the specific professors you want to write letters to legal venues, they're going to get even more uncooperative. Resist the urge to just say "I'll see you in court," as it may kill any inkling they have of even coming close to helping you.


but I can't review them myself.

Nobody can review them, they need reviewers to be impartial and the only way that is even remotely possible is if the letters can't be screened by the students... the whole point on having them unreviewable is so students can't try to get vengeance from a professor who happened to not write a perfect review letter.

They're going to dig in and fight you on that until their last breath, I can't picture any university allowing a student, under any circumstance, to review a letter of recommendation. However... you might be able to get them to compromise. Propose a neutral party, like the head of the department or the dean- read the letters to make sure no one mentions that you're trans. That way, you won't be reviewing the letters- and you'll never know what they wrote. Downside is you're just going to have to trust whoever this neutral party is... and take them at their word that no one outted you. Does that suck? Very much but it will be the only way I can think of.

[smokeslv]

Thank you all for the kind words.

I did contact lawyers last year when this first came up. Lambda legal gave me a list of about 20 lawyers who might take such a case. 6 called back. Each one said that they would only take my case once I got a finding of fact in my favor from the Illinois Human Rights Commission....a court set up just for hearing discriminaton cases. Basically they did not want to touch it.

JWBL those online universities don't offer physics as one of their programs. There are experiments that need to be done, that takes access to laboratories. Even as a theoretical physicist one needs to do experiments as part of their education. Ed_jaxon is right about this being a very elitist field too, which would turn it's nose up as such a degree if it existed.

My next play is to go to this other school. Which I got into, degree status, based only on my grades, no letters. To get my MS here and get into a PhD program somewhere that they won't make me take a bunch of classes... like in Europe. But I'm not borrowing to pay for anything any more. I don't want to be another educated life long debt slave. I'd rather die.

Hi Brenda,
Sorry for your situation. If Illinois is like Massachusetts, you need to be successful at the Mass Commission Agaist Discrimination level before you can file suit. That may be why the 6 lawyers said that?? Hope things turn out for the best either way.

[SarahG]

like the fact that you were in a non-degree program?

That shouldn't make a difference, and iirc you can get a letter of rec from a professor in a different subject matter (although its more helpful to use someone from your major...).


How can people in higher education be so prejudiced and judgemental when they're ultimately resposible for preaching the exact opposite?

Seriously... the biggest myth our public schooling system is responsible for is the belief that schools are there to give our students their sense of morals.

Professors at higher levels of education are among the most prejudiced and judgmental educators around... not just because of superiority complexes (i.e. "I am the professor and I know whats what, if you disagree it means you're wrong") but because their careers depend on it. Universities need opinionated, pompous professors because their books are what sells, their ideologies are what attract donors & potential students.

Why do you think Bailey has no trouble finding employment? Writing his book was the most sure-way for him to advance his career because it made him a household name in his field, and as a result attracted like-minded religious crazies to supporting him (and by detachment, any university he is affiliated with). If he had merely wrote more of what was already written, avoided controversy, and failed to appease social conservatives Bailey would be just another unknown, ignored psyc professor. He certainly wouldn't be the go-to guy for the New York Times' coverage of lgbt science if he had just kept repeating the already established views on the field...

What it boils down to is there is schooling and then there is education. With education people are given the ability to think critically & the ability to apply it to nearly anything... and as a result they figure out their own views, morals, and ethics as they go through life. With schooling people just think what they're told/forced to think... and rarely much else. No education institution that I could think of (if that's what they're truly there for) would say "these are the morals you should follow." The conclusion, hopefully not one that is falsely optimistic, is that if people are able to think critically, they're not going to fall into the ignorance traps that lead to injustice, discrimination and oppression.

[BrendaQG]

:soapbox
However when It came time to apply to their PhD. program, or to similar programs at other schools a problem arose. I asked the very same professors I got A's and B's from for letters of recommendation. They would not give them. Well, actually, one did give me letters to where ever, another only gave me one for UIC ,the last one who I got A's from refused to give any letters for anywhere. I ended up getting enough letters (3) to apply to UIC. After doing this, giving me only letters to UIC. They then denied my application, the same people who gave me letters denied my application.

Did they say why they (the ones that refused to write letters of rec) weren't going to write you one? Did the one who wrote a letter only to UIC do so intentionally or was that just a fuckup? I've had some professors that were so disorganized that if they did anything right the first time around, it was an accident....

Did you talk to the dean, your adviser, and department heads about this yet? It probably won't do anything, but if they think you're jumping straight from the specific professors you want to write letters to legal venues, they're going to get even more uncooperative. Resist the urge to just say "I'll see you in court," as it may kill any inkling they have of even coming close to helping you.

They did say. The one that only wrote me a letter to UIC said specifically that he would write me a letter only for UIC. That he would not write me a letter for anyplace else. One of flatly refused gave a number of reasons... saying "oh you should retake calculus, and I'm on the comitte that votes on who get's in etc." Mind you this man gave me an A in Theoertical particle physics, in which we do much more complex maths than calculus. I looked to professors at this one school I attended before, but many of them have actually retired and were not able to respond quickly enough.

As for talking to an advisor, I was a non-degree student. Meaning taking classes to prove i can do the work to get a degree. Meaning no official research, meaning no advisor.

As for talking to the department head or the dean... The University of Illinois at Chicago is really really big. It's a small city unto itself. Might as well talk to Mayor Daley about the potholes. I think i'd have a better chance of getting a sitdown with him.




but I can't review them myself.

Nobody can review them, they need reviewers to be impartial and the only way that is even remotely possible is if the letters can't be screened by the students... the whole point on having them unreviewable is so students can't try to get vengeance from a professor who happened to not write a perfect review letter.

They're going to dig in and fight you on that until their last breath, I can't picture any university allowing a student, under any circumstance, to review a letter of recommendation. However... you might be able to get them to compromise. Propose a neutral party, like the head of the department or the dean- read the letters to make sure no one mentions that you're trans. That way, you won't be reviewing the letters- and you'll never know what they wrote. Downside is you're just going to have to trust whoever this neutral party is... and take them at their word that no one outted you. Does that suck? Very much but it will be the only way I can think of.[/quote]

You don't seem to understand. They wanted me to sign a waiver of liability in return for their best efforts to convince the professors to write letters of recommendation for me. No guarantee they would write the letters. That I also could not look at the letters and be sure they are not telling people who do not need to know that I am a transsexual....that I am a transsexual. It's not a matter of being impartial it's a matter of privacy in that case. What right would they have to pass on such information?

All I wanted was letters that had their neutral honest academic opions. No extra personal facts. Understand?

[trish]

I must admit to feeling somewhat conflicted here. I confessed these feelings in PM’s on various occasions to several HA regulars. The problem is that I am not out of the closet, so to speak. Only a very few people, at the institutions where I got my degrees and where I’m working now, know that I’m transgender. Certainly the professors who wrote my most recent battery of letters of recommendation have no suspicions concerning my gender. I’m conflicted because sometimes (like after I read a thread such as this one) I feel that I should come out of the closet in order to make a political statement; yet all my life I just wanted to live a normal life and pass as a woman. When I walk down the street I don’t want people to be reminded of what I am and the politics I stand for, I just want them to think, “That’s one hot babe.” Really, I just want to pass and blend.

I do think I should mention that often letters of recommendation are sent under separate cover by the authors of those letters and the subject never gets to read them. This is to allow the authors some room to write honestly and fairly and it helps to quell the prospect of “recommendation inflation”. I only read one of my letters; and that only because my advisor wanted to show it to me.

I’m very sorry to hear of your blight, Brenda. These are very tough times for everybody. Many students applying for graduate schools are finding that not only are there no assistantships available, but there are no spaces available in the program. I know many excellent students who are just getting over their initial surprise at finding themselves on shortlists just to be allowed into a graduate degree program. Students already in graduate schools are staying a little longer, figuring it’s better than entering the job market in these hard economic times. More good undergraduate students are applying to programs, figuring it’s better than entering the job market. There’s less money for grants, so fewer need for graduate assistants. There’s less federal and state money going to higher education. Higher education is always the first thing that’s sliced from State budgets in lean economic times.

Still, if you find yourself the victim of discrimination; whether it’s because of your gender, your religion, your politics, whatever…you should seek all avenues for redress, beginning with the officials at your university; e.g. the department chair, the dean, the equal opportunity officer etc. I agree with Sarah, lawyers are a last resort. Your own idea of pursuing the MA first may be a solution. Good luck.

[SarahG]

but I can't review them myself.

Nobody can review them, they need reviewers to be impartial and the only way that is even remotely possible is if the letters can't be screened by the students... the whole point on having them unreviewable is so students can't try to get vengeance from a professor who happened to not write a perfect review letter.

They're going to dig in and fight you on that until their last breath, I can't picture any university allowing a student, under any circumstance, to review a letter of recommendation. However... you might be able to get them to compromise. Propose a neutral party, like the head of the department or the dean- read the letters to make sure no one mentions that you're trans. That way, you won't be reviewing the letters- and you'll never know what they wrote. Downside is you're just going to have to trust whoever this neutral party is... and take them at their word that no one outted you. Does that suck? Very much but it will be the only way I can think of.

You don't seem to understand. They wanted me to sign a waiver of liability in return for their best efforts to convince the professors to write letters of recommendation for me. No guarantee they would write the letters. That I also could not look at the letters and be sure they are not telling people who do not need to know that I am a transsexual....that I am a transsexual. It's not a matter of being impartial it's a matter of privacy in that case. What right would they have to pass on such information?

All I wanted was letters that had their neutral honest academic opions. No extra personal facts. Understand?

I understand completely, and I am telling you they're NOT going to want you to see a single sentence from those letters, and probably will do everything they can think of to prevent that from happening. But you may be able to get them to compromise by having someone else screen them to make sure they leave personal details out of them.

Waiver or not, they're not going to want you to see the contents of those letters.

[Goldenguinea]

Do you have any proof that they declined to write you letters based on discrimination? What do you base it on? I have had people ask me to write them letters of recomendations for jobs and have declined just because I didnt want to be bothered.

[horndog]

Hang in there Brenda, some general good advice given to you here. You might also want to Google some "legal" forums and ask questions there also.

In any case, good luck and hope you give these bastardos the "high hard one"...Wink, wink.

[jjhill]

sorry brenda! an individual from the h.s i went to got denied by harvard based on the rep of the h.s. It's a lot of discrimination and politics that goes on with schools and acceptance. It pisses me off when stuff like this happens. You can be one of the trailblazers for changing this. Keep us updated on what happens

[mimiplastique]

calMate mijo...

[BrendaQG]

Why do you think Bailey has no trouble finding employment? Writing his book was the most sure-way for him to advance his career because it made him a household name in his field, and as a result attracted like-minded religious crazies to supporting him (and by detachment, any university he is affiliated with). If he had merely wrote more of what was already written, avoided controversy, and failed to appease social conservatives Bailey would be just another unknown, ignored psyc professor. He certainly wouldn't be the go-to guy for the New York Times' coverage of lgbt science if he had just kept repeating the already established views on the field...

Like minded religious crazies. I would not call him that. I would call him a drinking, cavorting, Al Bundy like character. (He really did play highschool football and if you said the wrong things he would talk about it much the way Bundy did.) Who liked to spend a good amount of his free time with gay men and transsexuals. Religious.... perhaps only for a couple hours on Sundays as he wanted a quiet place to sit for a couple hours after a hard Saturday night of drinking. (But that's probably 49% of people right there in some form or fashion.)

Oh and as for being pompus and superior acting... you do realize that my life's ambition was to be just such a college professor right? I could take that personally. lol

[BrendaQG]

Trish... I can't tell you what to do. Staying somewhat out of the closet as you work your way up would demonstrate that we as a society have moved on. On the other hand, does that change your ability? Will it change mine? no. So far as I am concerned your working your way up but keeping a lid on your past proves just as much as it would be if you were out.

The problem I see ahead is that then you have to worry that you will work your way up, get outed somehow, then because the people you work with are bigots they will make you miserable, or get you fired.

There are +'s and -'s either way.

Oh well. Life will go on. I'll find some way, maybe an unorthodox way, to get past this sort of biggotry. In theory there is nothing that says I need this or that degree to practice my kind of physics (purely theoretical, all I really need is a pen and paper). A degree is only needed to make thoughtless people listen.

Mimi. I'll see you soon right. Trust that I'll have so much to say then. :-)

[Oli]

Just a question...did you get your M.S.?

[peggygee]

A few thoughts.

At the risk of sounding naive, I don't get the sense that your former professors will
divulge your trans-status. I sincerely want to believe that your letter of recommendation
will only discuss your academic abilites.

And while you may have not been matriculating, or been accepted for a degree conferring
program, I get the sense that your exemplary grades will put you in good stead to gain
entry into a PhD program.

However, it may not be at the school of your choosing. I realize that you are fond of
Chicago, and that it is your home. But you may need to consider relocating to another
State or even country.

I've known you for qome time now, and I know that you are very committed to seeing your
dream come to fruition.

And I want you to succeed almost as much you want you to succeed. As another woman of
color working in the field of science, it truly would gladden my heart.

Thus I would hope that you are able to keep the faith, stay the course, and keep up the
good work Doctor. :wink:

[foxtonoc]

Hi,

So so sorry to hear about your struggles. Unfortunately, I can't say that I believe that you will get much traction from a legal perspective. Without a documented history of unfair treatment these types of cases rarely have a way forward. I helped a friend of mine years ago with a sexual harassment case that had what seemed to be a reasonable amount of evidence - nothing ever really happened. One thing you may try is to ask the Dean of Admissions why your application was rejected. It's unlikely that you will get a fair answer if things are as you believe but one can hope that some useful info might percolate through. In addition, after being in the program for several years, you probably know who your advocates are - you might be able to have a very frank conversation with them if you engage them with the understanding that in this situation, you probably cannot expect them to advocate for you against the institution.

Anyway, I want to suggest that your reliance on your professors for letters of support may be somewhat less important than you expect. I think that if you can find other advocates to write a letter of support and cover your application material with an emphasis on your academic performance then you might be ok if you apply to other programs.

You could gain traction by going and visiting with faculty of departments you might want to work in. This may very well turn out to be a "take the bull by the horns" kind of opportunity. Talk face to face with people and you will be able to identify those that will support your way forward. While it sounds very much like you would hope to stay in the Chicago area it may be that you will need to break out of the geographic area.

Last idea, you can always try to find the side door. Find a program that you can get into that provides a way to get connected to the program you really want. Some schools are particularly good with interdisciplinary programs where you can enter a program from a number of different departments. Get in, perform well, find your advocates, then head the direction you want.

One thing is certain, there are relatively few motivated, passionate people entering academics and I think you will be able to find people who may view your situation and recognize the kind of person you are along with the intellectual ability that you obviously have. Most people are pretty passive about education even when rising to the PhD level. Your passion will be noticed by someone, certainly!

Good luck,

Fox