What If?

[El Nino]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFcQutO5Lgs

[trish]

You may be interested in reading Fareed Zakaria's article in the current Newsweek. http://www.newsweek.com/id/187093

He is somewhat more specific than your fearless leader, but they agree Middle East policies have been wrong headed for the last decade. On the other hand Zakaria is not an isolationist.

[El Nino]

Please note that Ron Paul is not an isolationist. Non-interventionism does not equate to isolationism. Now to read the article you posted...

[hippifried]

Actually, I don't have any kind of problem with Ron Paul's stance on military intervention. I don't think we should prop up any governments militarily, especially kingdoms & autocracies. That flies in the face of what we profess to believe in.

We need to get out of Europe. We don't need a missile defence to protect NATO from Iran. NATO should be disbanded. The cold war is over. It was all bullshit anyway.

We need to get out of Korea. Get out of the way so the peninsula can reunite. It would have been easier if we hadn't waited till the transfer of power to baby Kim, but waiting for another several generations will make it all that much harder.

We definitely need to get the hell out of the middle east & central Asia. I've never seen any sense in this silliness in Afghanistan or the so-called "war on terrorism". War is terrorism. You don't conquer criminals. You arrest them. They could have zipped in & snagged binLaden, but the war got in the way. This is where I break ranks with the President. This isn't the "good war", & spreading it into Pakistan won't do anybody any good.

I think I've been clear about my feelings on the PaliIsraelistine issue. But it brings up another point. This wierd policy we've developed of promoting autonomous countries based on ethnicity. It's not just Israel. We promoted the ethnic breakup of the Soviet Union, knowing it wasn't in the best interest of any of the republics. We went out of our way to build ethnic tensions to drive wedges between the people of the Soviet Union & Yugoslavia. It was a classic divide & conquer strategy that worked, but why were we out to conquer these folks in the first place? Over some lame economic ideological difference? I don't think so. We've been searching for excuses to continue this perpetual war since 1945. Eisenhower wasn't warning us about the "military industrial complex". He was just explaining his legacy. It's all about big money.

We need a change in mindset. I have a lot of issues with Ron Paul & other so called libertarians, but this isn't one of them.

[trish]

I don't think we should prop up any governments militarily,...
Let me hear an AMEN.


We need to get out of Europe.
We need to get out of Korea.
Let me hear an AMEN BROTHER.


We definitely need to get the hell out of the middle east & central Asia. I've never seen any sense in this silliness in Afghanistan or the so-called "war on terrorism". War is terrorism. You don't conquer criminals. You arrest them.
HALLELUJAH!

Now that we've got our agreements out of the way,
I must say I don’t believe I ever heard that particular take on the Balkans and neighboring regions. The standard story (as I understand it) is the Balkan countries were always at war with each other. Ethnic and religious differences were only suppressed by the weight of Soviet Empire. With the fall of the communism, the internal pressure of those simmering differences blew Yugoslavia apart and reignited the hatred and centuries old grievances throughout the Balkan Peninsula and surrounds. The UN intervention of the 90’s, I’m told, prevented the wholesale extermination of the Muslim population in Bosnia, by the Christians; something for which the Islamic politicos rarely acknowledge.

[muhmuh]

The standard story (as I understand it) is the Balkan countries were always at war with each other. Ethnic and religious differences were only suppressed by the weight of Soviet Empire.

which is absolutely true as far as i can tell from conversations with serbs who claimed some oppression by albanians ages ago gave them a right to strike back as soon as they had the upper hand and its pretty much the same story all round

[hippifried]

Yugoslavia was never a Soviet republic or part of the Soviet bloc.

Tribal animosities go way back, but so do the ones all through Europe. The monarchies of Europe were just tribal warlords who managed to gain enough power to to pass it down to their offspring. They were no different than the tribal warlords of Afghanistan or Somalia. What we think of as European nations are just tribal confederacies. The EU is tenuous at best, & I can't help but wonder if it would have ever happened if not for the cold war & the continuing US occupation in the guise of NATO.

This is one of the reasons I keep stressing the fact that we're not European. The permanent tribal animosity is foreign. Oh we have our racial tensions, but at least there's a visible difference. There's European style ethnic tension with every immigrant wave, but it's usually gone in a couple of generations as the interbreeding takes control. Here in the US, our muttness is a point of pride. We count up the number of different ethnicities in our bloodline for bragging rights. I got a Dutch guy upset once by asking what the hell's the difference after he told me he was of mixed blood because one of his parents was German. Huh? We had a civil war over slavery & agribusiness, but when was the last time you heard of a threatened invasion or war between Utah & Colorado or Illinois & Indiana? Our ethnic (tribal) enclaves are almost strictly urban, & this is a big country. Our pissy little gang turf wars turn into world wars over there.

It was no big deal to create ethnic rifts in central Asia or Yugoslavia for the purpose of splitting them up. Those people are entrenched, & have been for many generations. It's just "turf" nonsense with deep roots. They all cut off their noses to spite their faces, & we encouraged it. My rhetorical question is "why?". Separating people & setting up separate governments along ethnic or religious lines goes against our professed ideals. "Rhetorical" because the answer is obvious. We're throwing off a lot of our core beliefs to establish hegemonic military & economic empire. That flies in the face of our core beliefs too. What did any of those currently independent little states gain by breaking off from their unions? Absolutely nothing. They'll pay for that stubbornness for generations to come. Just silly.

[trish]

Tribal animosities go way back, but so do the ones all through Europe. The monarchies of Europe were just tribal warlords who managed to gain enough power to to pass it down to their offspring. They were no different than the tribal warlords of Afghanistan or Somalia. What we think of as European nations are just tribal confederacies. The EU is tenuous at best, & I can't help but wonder if it would have ever happened if not for the cold war & the continuing US occupation in the guise of NATO.

This is one of the reasons I keep stressing the fact that we're not European. The permanent tribal animosity is foreign. Oh we have our racial tensions, but at least there's a visible difference. There's European style ethnic tension with every immigrant wave, but it's usually gone in a couple of generations as the interbreeding takes control. Here in the US, our muttness is a point of pride. We count up the number of different ethnicities in our bloodline for bragging rights. I got a Dutch guy upset once by asking what the hell's the difference after he told me he was of mixed blood because one of his parents was German. Huh? We had a civil war over slavery & agribusiness, but when was the last time you heard of a threatened invasion or war between Utah & Colorado or Illinois & Indiana? Our ethnic (tribal) enclaves are almost strictly urban, & this is a big country. Our pissy little gang turf wars turn into world wars over there.

Agreed. All the above looks right to me.




It was no big deal to create ethnic rifts in central Asia or Yugoslavia for the purpose of splitting them up. Those people are entrenched, & have been for many generations.

This last is what I'm not too sure of yet. You're saying we deliberately exasperated the divisiveness between the ethnic factions in Yugoslavia in order to establish bases there? That could be right, but before I nod affirmatively I need some evidence and argument.

[hippifried]

We don't really need bases, but by aiding Croatia, we effectively landlock Serbia & control the region. I believe the official policy of the US is still that Montenegro should be an independent nation. Turkey's a member of NATO & controls access to the Black Sea. Strategically, it was all about breaking up the Soviet Union, removing the buffer zones, & isolating Russia. Yugoslavia, as a non-aligned soviet style communistic confederation, was just a bonus.

Got a globe handy? Take a look at what we're doing. We've got a gun to Pakistan's head. We bought off Turkmen. We have naval control of the Persian Gulf. We're dumping shitpots of military & economic aid into the Caucasus. We occupy Afghanistan & Iraq. Iran is surrounded.

We're still fighting the cold war, & it's been over for 2 decades. We never went head up against the Soviets. Cuba's as close as we came. We got all worked up over those missiles, but we're trying to put missiles in the Czech Republic & Romania. Maybe Poland. Oh, it's all to protect the EU from Iran of course. Huh? The entire cold war was just pitting alliances against each other to gain strategic advantage. It was a game of risk without having to actually deploy. For decades we've been seeding dissent around the world. I'm not sure if we know how to stop. Even if there was ever a credible excuse for doing it, there isn't now. There's no nation on earth that want's to start a shooting war with the US. The only ones capable of doing any damage to us at all are the Russians, the Chinese, & the EU. The perpetual war seems a tad counterproductive.

[trish]

The perpetual war seems a tad counterproductive.


A tad; though on the other hand, since it's perpetual, it always gives us something to do. It's easier to fall into a routine than to think creatively and productively.

Thanks for the elaboration on your perspective, hippiefried. Gonna go get that globe now.

[hippifried]

The perpetual war seems a tad counterproductive.


A tad; though on the other hand, since it's perpetual, it always gives us something to do. It's easier to fall into a routine than to think creatively and productively.Well makework's always a problem, but I'm not so sure it's a mindless routine. We've put our own twist on it, but we seem to have fallen into the European hegemonic mindset. It worked. We control the world. Now what? It's like a dog chasing a car & then the car stops. "All right, I caught it! ...Uh..." What's he gonna do other than piss on the tire? We've been pissing on tires for a decade or more.

What're we doing? We already control the world's oil because the petroleum exchange runs on dollars. We're so busy pissing around that the Chinese are cutting deals all over the world without lifting a bullit. India decided they don't need to worry about Pakistan anymore, & they've gone on a development tear. Asia & South America are each looking real hard at setting up regional common markets, & maybe even common currencies. We shifted from Columbia to Venezuela as the Latin-American boogeyman, but nobody's buying it. Our military leases aren't being renewed, & our hand picked government leaders can't hold power anymore. The last 7 years have been a total disaster. We're fast turning into the crazy guys with the guns. We need to get out of war mode. We've been stuck in it since 1941. Time for a change.


Thanks for the elaboration on your perspective, hippiefried. Gonna go get that globe now.Yeah. Everybody grows up on stories. Mine came from my dad who was appalled by what he saw of the colonial powers, while in the China fleet back in the '30s. (think "Sand Pebbles") I'm also a babyboomer & was engrossed in the anarchist movement of the late '60s & early '70s. Hence the nickname.

A globe gives an entirely different perspective that you can't get from a flat map. Keep up those travels too. It keeps the mind open.