2 Convicted of Murdering Transgender Teen

[JonathanX]

2 Convicted of Murdering Transgender Teen
Sep 12 9:49 PM US/Eastern

By MICHELLE LOCKE
Associated Press Writer

HAYWARD, Calif.

Two men who had sex with a transgender teen and then discovered she was biologically male were convicted Monday of her murder, but cleared of hate crime charges.

Michael Magidson and Jose Merel, both 25, face mandatory sentences of 15 years-to-life in prison for second-degree murder in the killing of Gwen Araujo, who was beaten, tied up and strangled.

The jury was deadlocked in the case of a third man, Jason Cazares, 25, marking the second time a jury was unable to reach a verdict in his case.

Araujo, 17, was born a boy named Edward but grew up to believe her true identity was female. The defendants, who knew her as Lida, met her in the summer of 2002. Magidson and Merel had sexual encounters with her, experiences that fueled suspicions about Araujo's gender.

The issue boiled over in the early hours of Oct. 4, 2002, in a confrontation at Merel's house in the San Francisco suburb of Newark.

In the first trial, the three defendants stuck together, with their lawyers attacking the chief prosecution witness, Jaron Nabors, who was also at the house the night Araujo died but was allowed to plead guilty to manslaughter.

But in the second trial, the defendants' united front cracked, with Merel implicating Magidson.

Nabors testified at both trials that Araujo was savagely attacked after her biological identity was revealed when her underwear was pulled aside. He said he didn't see the killing but saw Magidson pull a rope toward the teen's neck.

Magidson testified that he beat and tied up Araujo, adding that while he couldn't remember large parts of the night he was sure he had not strangled her. He said Nabors was the killer.

But Merel, testifying for the first time, broke down and cried when prosecutor Chris Lamiero asked him directly if Magidson had admitted strangling Araujo. He testified that Magidson had told him "if push came to shove" Merel should identify Magidson as the killer.

An autopsy found that Araujo died of asphyxiation associated with head injuries.

Nabors testified that Merel smashed Araujo in the head with a can and also hit her with a pan. Merel said he slapped Araujo and hit her a glancing blow with the pan, but he denied seriously injuring her.

Cazares said he was outside the house when the killing took place and only helped bury the body in a shallow grave in the Sierra Nevada foothills.

Merel's attorney said he was not guilty of anything more than felony assault, if that.

Magidson's attorney asked for a manslaughter conviction.


http://www.breitbart.com/news/2005/09/12/D8CJ30KO4.html

[Kiely_Marie]

:cry:

[Kiely_Marie]

I heard this on tv awhile ago she was spanish and her mom was on some show - I forgot talking abotu it! The girl named herself after Gwen Stefani who she loved! I kinda think it was her fault cause she didnt tell them "T" ... Sad tho! :cry:

[NYCe]

This is sad, a tragedy all around.

[Fraise]

I kinda think it was her fault cause she didnt tell them "T" ... Sad tho! :cry:

It's not her fault she was beaten to death because she didn't tell them she had a dick. :(

[geekmeat]

I heard this on tv awhile ago she was spanish and her mom was on some show - I forgot talking abotu it! The girl named herself after Gwen Stefani who she loved! I kinda think it was her fault cause she didnt tell them "T" ... Sad tho! :cry:

Thats a HORRIBLE thing to say..........especially coming from a transgender woman.
Shame on you!
Its a shame how some of you girls act towards each other........Im really disgusted at your comments.
THEY DIDNT HAVE TO KILL HER!

[ARMANIXXX]

I think Kiely_Marie makes a good point.

In my opionion, Gwen is accountable for what happened to her. Obviously there are many men who are not interested in having sex with men and/or transgendered women and trying to fool them into doing so is serious business.....DEATHLY serious. Unfortunately she was only 17 and she probably was too young and unaware how serious this type of "prank" is.

I don't believe these guys should get off totally scott free, but I think lessening their punishment would help to hold Gwen accountable as well as the young men who did this.

[Kiely_Marie]

Ya'll misjudge what i said ...

[Kiely_Marie]

I think Kiely_Marie makes a good point.

In my opionion, Gwen is accountable for what happened to her. Obviously there are many men who are not interested in having sex with men and/or transgendered women and trying to fool them into doing so is serious business.....DEATHLY serious. Unfortunately she was only 17 and she probably was too young and unaware how serious this type of "prank" is.

I don't believe these guys should get off totally scott free, but I think lessening their punishment would help to hold Gwen accountable as well as the young men who did this.

Thanks ARMANIXXX ... U got my point!

[thanos]

Ya'll misjudge what i said ...

No, I agree with you.

[Ecstatic]

I think that she was partly responsible for misleading the guys and hiding the fact that she was a T, but murder is murder and that doesn't lessen their crime in my opinion. If they had beaten her for fooling them, well, that would still be heinous, but much more understandable. But getting a rope and deliberating killing her totally erodes their defense of being manipulated or tricked by her. There is no excuse for such violence. While a feeling of berayal or being tricked may anger a person, there is no justification in taking violent action against that person as as result, and absolutely no justification for murder under any circumstances. I can't believe they got off with second degree murder charges.

[Dina Delicious]

How the hell do you hold a dead girl accountable shes DEAD
man you people sometimes really make me wonder
murder is a violent crime and she was beat to death by three people ,im so surprised that anyone can say leesen the setence of the guys to hold the girl accountable
her punishment is she will never live again isnt that enough
or should the message be kill a trannie say she never told you that she was transsexual and you will get a leeser sentence
god im sick over this
cut there balls off and put them in jail forever
murder is never acceptable EVER

Dina

[NiceGuy Eddie]

I think Kiely_Marie makes a good point.

In my opionion, Gwen is accountable for what happened to her. Obviously there are many men who are not interested in having sex with men and/or transgendered women and trying to fool them into doing so is serious business.....DEATHLY serious. Unfortunately she was only 17 and she probably was too young and unaware how serious this type of "prank" is.

I don't believe these guys should get off totally scott free, but I think lessening their punishment would help to hold Gwen accountable as well as the young men who did this.

You have the right to your opinion ; I just think it is pretty sick.

That poor little girl was brutally killed by two psychos, and you say she`s "accountable" for for what happened to her???

[GroobySteven]

I agree partly with what Kiely_Marie is stating. Although there is no way to condone her murder, the fact is that she put herself into an unsafe and dangerous position by the actions she took.
I know plenty of TS's who do this - either for a kick or personal gratification of being able to pass as a female, or in the case of the working girls, for money and in my opinion, they're all putting themselves in the face of danger.
When there are homophobes (especially more than one together) and they feel like they've been tricked into having sex with a male when they thought it was a female, they're going to lash out. You drama queens who expect otherwise, aren't living in the real world.
I do think this is a hate crime and they should have been convicted of such, however I also think 15 to life is the sentence they deserve for murder and hopefully this will educate other young transgenders to be more cautious and those who perpetuate these crimes that they cannot use the excuse/defense that these idiots used.
seanchai

[rick_932]

Although there is no way to condone her murder, the fact is that she put herself into an unsafe and dangerous position by the actions she took.


yea, cosign this shit

[Dina Delicious]

i hope young and old trannies learn from this too
i would never condone this type of "tricking"
it is too dangerous
but they are still murderes and i will always be a drama queen
Dina

[NYCe]

When I volunteered at a community outreach center a few years ago, we had a powerpoint presentation we put on for the younger transsexuals. It was entitled a Hetero Guide to Dating for MtoF Transsexuals (its up on transsexual.org now):

1. If you date men, you are always in potentially fatal danger. Be aware.

2. Make certain, before you even consider a date, that your partner is FULLY aware of your status and is not significantly bothered by it. Never date anyone who does not know about you.

3. Be aware that in our society, men who are secure enough to accept you are rare. there are predators who attack transsexuals, confused sorts who seek to use and then punish transsexuals, and those who try to be accepting but fail, often violently.

4. Be honest, be aware, and be very, very cautious.

5. Some men may only like you because of your transsexuality, and may find you uninteresting post-operatively. Be sure of the attractions that occur.

6. It is not all dark, but you will have to search more carefully, and be more aware, than nontranssexual women. Even with all the above, know that it is possible to find caring partners and loving friends.

At the time it seemed a bit overboard (I did not write it) but out of the 10 girl in the group, 2 were murdered that year and 2 more within 2 years time.

[Dina Delicious]

I think thats enough to keep me a drama queen forever
when i worked in other t.s clubs i remember 2 girls that went on "dates" and never came back
it was so scary at that time in NYC cause they met the guys in ts bars
this is the reason why most post ops try to blend and leave the active transsexual scene
it is scary
Dina

[Vicki Richter]

I don't think anyone is saying she deserved what happened. Far from it. However, by having sex with guys and not telling them she put herself in a bad/dangerous situation. Lots of girls do this, but to a much lesser degree. It's probably never smart. There is a really fine line between what would make a guy embarassed versus dangerously outraged.

I think if anything, girls, including me, can learn a lesson from this. Maybe it will keep some girls alive or out of bad situations. I try to do the same thing by preaching out about silicone but something really bad usually has to happen to people before they learn.

[geekmeat]

All of you girls saying she should have told everyone about her "T" are hypocrites.
Everyone of you!
ALL OF YOU HAVE DONE THE SAME THING!
At one time or another.
All of you.
And now you judge her after she is dead?
Shameful...........

[GroobySteven]

Ass - they're not judging her, they're judging the situation she got into and from what I've read, some of the girls have indicated that they have done similar silly things.
Why has everything got to be an argument with you?
You only see in black and white?
Nobody is judging the individual - but by having some discourse on this instead of idiotic writings like "hope they burn for what they done!" and trying to understand why it could have happened, it might prevent it happenning again.
seanchai

[Angel]

i hate hearing about shit like this

[Reddman]

I think that she was partly responsible for misleading the guys and hiding the fact that she was a T, but murder is murder and that doesn't lessen their crime in my opinion. If they had beaten her for fooling them, well, that would still be heinous, but much more understandable. But getting a rope and deliberating killing her totally erodes their defense of being manipulated or tricked by her. There is no excuse for such violence. While a feeling of berayal or being tricked may anger a person, there is no justification in taking violent action against that person as as result, and absolutely no justification for murder under any circumstances. I can't believe they got off with second degree murder charges.

I agree with your take on it Ecstatic.

[Fraise]

Are you people out to lunch? She got fucking killed not have her house egged.

Next time I go to mcdonalds and buy a hamburger and they give me a cheeseburger I'm going to go back in and do some damage(maybe rape and murder?) because they tried to trick me. Because I didn't know there was cheese in it until I bit into it. When my teeth sunk into to that yellow goo I went bezerk OMGHI2Uitsfuckingch33se! I know that would be ok with some of you as they tricked me and they are "partly responsible" because they gave me a cheese burger when I was expecting a hamburger.

Or I could say "Holy shit thats fucking cheese! I hate cheese you mother fuckers it's fucking disgusting I hope you rot in hell and I never see your burgers again!"

[hillbilly]

i'm sure at that age a girl does not completely understand the consequences of her actions.

i imagine its quite intoxicating to get the attention that seemed to recieve from these guys as a girl in transition. heck its intoxicating for almost anyone at such a young age(or any age) to be liked.

i hardly think that this was some devious plan on her part. i imagine she just got too wrapped up in it and it had horrible results.

[Ecstatic]

NYCe, that was an interesting bit about the powerpoint presentation of the risks and dangers TS can expose themselves to. Thanks for posting that.

Some men are barely half a foot out of the cave, know what I mean? I know a girl who was brutally beaten by a 6'5" brute within an inch of her life. She thought she was going to die. No, she hadn't "tricked" him, and she doesn't know what set him off, but he just lashed out like an ape. Some guys are just neanderthals.

[AllanahStarrNYC]

it's horrible that she was murdered-

but she put herself in a very bad situation.

i think tellling a man that you are not a transsexual-especially pre-can out you in a great deal of danger. if you think about how most men simply react when they figure out they like ts ladies, whith all the questions they ask themselve and issues that arise, some people can become very violent if they are homophobic or can't deal with it, if they have been lied to,

it is no excuse for her death- but certainly she made a very bad choice

i know many girls who have done this as well and have been beat up and attacked when the guys find out.

its different if you are post op perharps- but i think when u have a penis
u are running a really great danger

[Scott098]

Ok... my two cents.
First of all a lie of omission is still a lie. Should she have lied to these three boys (remember one was granted a mistrail due to hung jury)? NO she should not have. For that lie she deserved a good talking to.

ANYTHING that involves violence is INEXCUSEABLE (except defense of self or another person). NO MATTER WHAT lies were told or who feels "fooled" ther is no excuse to do bodily harm or murder.

I am glad to see that the DA was willing to go ahead with a second trial and glad to see that at least the jury could see past there own likely bigotries to convict two of the three.

Anyone who blames the victim falls into the WORST category of modern humanity. Blame the victim is the easiest way to get any defendant clear of charges. It is an attitude that sickens me.

[Fraise]

Ok... my two cents.
First of all a lie of omission is still a lie. Should she have lied to these three boys (remember one was granted a mistrail due to hung jury)? NO she should not have. For that lie she deserved a good talking to.

ANYTHING that involves violence is INEXCUSEABLE (except defense of self or another person). NO MATTER WHAT lies were told or who feels "fooled" ther is no excuse to do bodily harm or murder.

I am glad to see that the DA was willing to go ahead with a second trial and glad to see that at least the jury could see past there own likely bigotries to convict two of the three.

Anyone who blames the victim falls into the WORST category of modern humanity. Blame the victim is the easiest way to get any defendant clear of charges. It is an attitude that sickens me.

Finally someone with ccommon sense.

[Vicki Richter]

Yes but it's like you don't live on this earth or something. You are doing a fantastic job of stating the obvious. Our world is not a perfect place. This is not Eden, and bad things do happen to people.

The facts are nobody should get beaten for their gender identity. Nobody should get killed for it. However, not everyone looks at a TS as a woman like people here. Nobody thinks what happened should have been the end result. However, the end result in that situation even on it's best day wouldn't be three young testosterone filled guys laughing and saying, "hahaha -he- sure fooled us".

There is cause and effect in this world and there isn't a defining line between cause and effect. If a man's wife cheats on him, in some countries she gets the death penalty. By our standards this is wrong. However, if a man's wife cheats on him and he kills her, while the punishment doesn't fit the crime, there are some who could justify the blind rage that he felt which lead him to commit such a violent act. Cause and effect. Denying it exists doesn't fix the problem or the nature of human beings. Also at what point is your argument ever valid. If someone rapes your mother and you kill him, are you the victim or is he? Societies standards might dictate that the punishment fit the crime or not. What is the crime or punishment for "tricking" a guy into giving up his sexual identity?

What is being said here is that there is a lesson here for TS to not engage in sexual activity with men who don't know about their gender. It is up to each of us to heed that warning or to ignore it. It's clearly not safe and the tragedies of such have played out again and again. Gwen is a tragedy that shouldn't have happened. But there is always cause/effect action/reaction. God bless her.

I think many of us (TS) get so intwined or wrapped up in our femininity that it becomes incomprehensible to us that the cock makes a difference at all. It's a bit of a reality check when stuff like this happens.

[Realgirls4me]

Fraise and Scott098 speak for me in this one. I can't believe what I'm reading in this thread from, up to this point, what I (had) considered intelligent, level-headed, rational thinking posters. Let me see if I have this right ? She deceived them, therefore lied to them, therefore she put herself in that position, therefore deserved what she got ... Is that the gist of it ??? Her youth notwithstanding as an excuse, no one -- NO ONE -- deserved her fate. Placing qualifiers in defense of the defendents in this case is to rationalize bigotry, homophobia, and fear, et all, in some warped way. I doubt anyone in here would condone what happened in the old south when the law looked the other way simply because the victims of a crime were black, and yet you allow these cretins off simply because they were deceived ? Unbelievable.



It should have been first degree murder all the way!

[Vicki Richter]

We live in a world where people get beaten for looking at someone wrong, scalped by punkers for verbally disrespecting women, shot/killed for wearing the wrong colors or baseball cap, raped for wearing too short a skirt... and you think suggesting that TS girls be cautious with their sexuality is bad advice?

Not one person here has said she got what she deserved. I think some rationality is in order here. This is 2005 not 2050.

[kingjohnson008]

I don't think anyone is condoning what these young men did, but I agree with those who are saying that she did put herself in the position. Why was there the need for her to disguise her identity? If she had told these boys that she was a t from the jump she may or may not have been invited to the party. KNowing boys and the way they think, it was probably assumed that she was simply promiscuous, and everybody there had something to jump on. Once it was revealed to these boys that she was indeed built just like them there was initially shock, and then group think kicked in where one person had a bbad idea, and the others in their state of shock went along with it. Of course this is all contigent on them not knowing that she was a t.
Growing up in SF I am pretty good at recognizing t's and have not been surprised yet.
However I have been in situations where I have picked up a tgirl, bar club, street however, where the girl and I were getting ready to fuck, and then she says "oh by the way", and this is after she already sucked me up. see now if I didn't want any part of this I probably would be pretty upset my damn self. I know better now than to commit a violent act on someone becsue of their deception, but when I was 17, 18, 19 I hadn't learned yet that I cannot just smack someone around becsue they did something tthat I felt was worng. and ith anger issues I used to have I may just have went too far.

[Fraise]

Ok

When I was 16 I was beat up by not 1 but 3 white guys who called me nigger while they kicked me.

All I was doing was walking home from school. Did I put myself in a "situation"?


Yes the world is not perfect , yes she should not have done that. BUT you have to know when is the right time to criticize someone for their actions. She was not beat up or spit on, she was murdered.

This is where the trans world is I think a couple of steps behind what goes on in the gay world. If that was a guy who got murdered because he was gay there would be no doubt what these kids did and why they did it. But from the first page I keep reading "she shouldn't have done that". You have to stand behind your girls better then that.

[GroobySteven]

No of coruse you didn't put yourself into a situation walking home from school but if you'd decided to walk into a Nazi Rally and disguise yourself as a white guy, only to reveal yourself as black later, then like Gwen you would have put yourself into a situation but of course, not deserved to be murdered for doing so.
What all you incited people are missing (or keep reinstating) is that nobody here is judging Gwen, they're judging the situation she put herself in, no matter how silly, how immature or how ignorant she was of the situation. Tgirls do this all the time and sitting back crying about people looking at the problem and making rational statements isn't going to stop another girl making the same mistake. If these guys had got off, it would be a different argument going on here. We're all on the same page, we all know these guys were guilty and they did get punished for murder. We all no that her murder was not right, that it was a barbarous and heinous thing to happen yet we all (should) know this wasn't any little girl or boy walking home from school. This was a young, sexually aware adult who made a concious decision not to tell these men who or what she was and ultimately, that was a contributing factor in her death - not an excuse for causing it.
Some of you guys need to
R
E
A
D

S
L
O
W
E
R

seanchai

[Realgirls4me]

No of coruse you didn't put yourself into a situation walking home from school but if you'd decided to walk into a Nazi Rally and disguise yourself as a white guy, only to reveal yourself as black later, then like Gwen you would have put yourself into a situation but of course, not deserved to be murdered for doing so.
What all you incited people are missing (or keep reinstating) is that nobody here is judging Gwen, they're judging the situation she put herself in, no matter how silly, how immature or how ignorant she was of the situation. Tgirls do this all the time and sitting back crying about people looking at the problem and making rational statements isn't going to stop another girl making the same mistake. If these guys had got off, it would be a different argument going on here. We're all on the same page, we all know these guys were guilty and they did get punished for murder. We all no that her murder was not right, that it was a barbarous and heinous thing to happen yet we all (should) know this wasn't any little girl or boy walking home from school. This was a young, sexually aware adult who made a concious decision not to tell these men who or what she was and ultimately, that was a contributing factor in her death - not an excuse for causing it.
Some of you guys need to
R
E
A
D

S
L
O
W
E
R

seanchai

Sean,

Hello-o-o-o ? It's the attitude of, Well she should have known better, blah, blah, blah ... that gets to me. This young woman wasn't just berated, ridiculed, spat on, or beaten, she was murdered. Killed.
How are the two -- judging the situation/judging the victim -- mutually exclusive in this case ? It seems to me that the two are one in the same and some in here are indeed judging, therefore blaming, the victim for the unwarranted murderous acts of the three defendants. Do you believe this 17 year old ever believed her decision not to tell them would eventually result in her death ? I don't think she did. Sorry, but murder in this case is a little bit over-reacting, don't ya think ? Point the finger solely and squarely -- SQUARELY -- where it belongs -- at the three punks who took her life. Fault them, along with the fear, bigotry, issues, and ideas that pervade their sick little minds, and not the young TG who either naively or inadvertently got caught up by it. Anything less would be equivilent to condoning the hanging of blacks at one time simply because, well, that's the way things are down here in the south.

[GroobySteven]

With respect, RG4me do you mean to say, that in no way at all was she responsible for putting herself into that situation?
While I'm sure she never expected the result to end in her death she must have known that she could have potentially caused some trouble?

I really think equating this to hanging blacks in the South, is way way off the mark and somewhat insulting to that situation and rather, we quash that side of the argument now instead of this subject turning into a racial or equating one evil for another evil argument.

Bottom line in my opinion, yes I do believe that unfortuantely, through either her ignorance, naivity or immaturity that she did put herself in potentially harms way. This does not excuse the murderers whatsoever. By stating that she should not have put herself into that situation does not take any of the guilt from the murderers.
seanchai

[Suckerpunch]

:( well the perfect end to a perfect day for me. My faith in humanity takes another blow

[Realgirls4me]

With respect, RG4me do you mean to say, that in no way at all was she responsible for putting herself into that situation?
While I'm sure she never expected the result to end in her death she must have known that she could have potentially caused some trouble?

"Trouble" is a relative term here. I'm sure that even in a fleeting moment of a 17 year old's thought processes, she expected something would come down once it was disclosed, but violence, ergo, death ? Death ? If she knew in advance that the potential for harm was there, then and only then, would she bear some responsibility, but no one in their right mind would ever think it would lead to their death.

I really think equating this to hanging blacks in the South, is way way off the mark and somewhat insulting to that situation and rather, we quash that side of the argument now instead of this subject turning into a racial or equating one evil for another evil argument.

It's not at all that different. The point I'm trying to make or equate by using what happened in the south at one time is the indifferent attitudes held by some at the time that bigotry was the way of the land, and that blacks should simply know their place. Emitt Till(sp?) in 1957 should have "known" better than to whistle at a white woman. He should have "known" he would later be dragged out of his cousin's house and later found tortured and beaten to death ... Emitt [Gwen] should have "known" his actions would lead all the way to death. It's the fear, intolerance, and bigotry that pervaded the minds of these killers, as well as the inexcusable climate of, Oh, well, that's the way things are, she should have known better ... crowd that really gets to me. Why address the myriad of issues at play here, when all we have to do is take the easy route and find fault, any fault, with the victim simply because that's the way things are ? It just seems that some in here are finding more fault with her judgement than with that of her killers, and that's what pisses me off.

Bottom line in my opinion, yes I do believe that unfortuantely, through either her ignorance, naivity or immaturity that she did put herself in potentially harms way. This does not excuse the murderers whatsoever. By stating that she should not have put herself into that situation does not take any of the guilt from the murderers.

It still shouldn't have resulted in one's harm, or worse, murder. Most of us have probably come out on the short end of the haggling when buying a new car, yet we don't go back and murder the salesman when we find out we were punked, do we ? What judge in this country would exonerate one on that ? I hate to disagree with you, Sean, because you are of sound mind and I probably agree with you 95 percent of the time in here, but in my opinion Gwen bears little if any of the fault in this case.

[Quinn]

Great posts, the two sides of which seem to boil down to what so many other things in life boil down to: responsibility. One side insists that the victim bares no responsibility whatsoever, while the other side decries the actions of those who harmed her but also insists that she bares some responsibility for putting herself in that situation.

Years ago while a teenager at the Jersey Shore, a friend and I were walking through a town called Lakewood. Lakewood has some really bad sections in it that warrant careful consideration. Anyway, my friend and I were walking to the bus station when he suggested taking a shortcut by a particular group of apartments that would shave off about 20 minutes from our walk. I argued that he was out of his mind and that two white kids like us had no business going through there. He, being from an overly liberal background, responded that I was wrong for thinking that way and that if we minded our own business we would be fine. I knew he was wrong, but I also knew he would take the short-cut by himself just to show me that I was wrong; so, I went with him.

Long story short, we were chased down like dogs for our wallets by nine guys. My friend was repeatedly stabbed in the stomach with an umbrella while I had the living shit kicked out of me until I lost consciousness. It’s something of a miracle that we weren’t killed. The casual observer might seek to blame only the mindless thugs that attacked us. I, however, disagree. If my friend and I had not taken an obviously dangerous short-cut, we would never have put ourselves in a situation where the aforementioned thugs would have had the opportunity to harm us. While our attackers are unquestionably responsible for their actions – and paid for them – in the end, my friend and I bare a considerable degree of responsibility for what happened to us.

Like it or not, the young lady whose tragic murder is the focus of this thread does bare some responsibility for what happened to her in the same way that I do for what once happened to me. By making the tragic decision to knowingly mislead and deceive those men (animals), she helped to create the situation that led to her horrific demise. This isn’t about blaming the victim; it’s about having the intelligence to realize that people have to be responsible for their part in a given tragedy.

-Quinn

[brickcitybrother]

I am simply in awe of this discussion. I cannot believe that anyone would give these murderers an excuse. Is it because they did not rape her? Is it only rape ... for which there is no excuse? I mean if a man went into a woman's apartment thinking that she was in the equation (because of the perception the woman gave) and then discovered the opposite to be true ... he is then justified in raping her? I think not.

Listen... of all people, I can understand trying to find a defensible position. But there is not a defense to every act. Yes, she lied to the young men. Yes, I believe that they were not overjoyed when they discovered this fact. But please, educate me on exactly WHY she was at fault as they BEAT HER SENSELESS. Then put a PUT A ROPE AROUND HER NECK and CHOKED HER until she stopped BREATHING. Of course, understanding the forsenics dynamics... please remember that THEY CONTINUED TO CHOKE HER for sometime AFTER SHE STOPPED BREATHING to actually cause her death by asphyxiation.

I as a man - cannot and will not - in anyway condone or lessen the act of killing another person - simply because I was incorrect as to the orifice I stuck my dick into or the sex of that person. Somehow I'd like to think that such information would be easily available as well as visibly apparent to me if I treated that person as something more than a faceless / souless / meaningless sexual object with whom I did not even take the time to remove mine much less their clothing.

Then again, perhaps it is me that is misguided. I mean why should we hold men responsible for their actions when they get a little UPSET. Why not go back to the days when men could rape their wives because they were upset that she would not have sex on command. Why not go back to the days when a black child whistling at a white woman was punishable by death - because men were a bit UPSET. Perhaps not even that far back ... let's just go back to GAY BASHING. Remember when that wasn't a crime - but something the GAYS brought upon themselves because ... well because they were GAY! I mean ... some people on this board in this post seem to think that it was the girl's fault - right. It must be the GAYS fault too. I mean they UPSET someone who beat them. And she upset someone who killed her.

Oh yea - I forgot - these upstanding examples of manhood were FOOLED by her. Yes, I understand. They stuck their dicks somewhere without knowing all the facts. Yup - sounds like its her fault.

Now again, I will say this. I don't think hiding one sex from a partner or a friend is the right thing to do. But I definitely did not know it was an offense PUNISHABLE BY DEATH.

Now let me step down...

~Brickcitybrother~

"I have learnt silence from the talkative, toleration from the intolerant, and kindness from the unkind; yet strange, I am ungrateful to these teachers."

[Realgirls4me]

Quinn,

Big difference. A bad, or tough neighborhood in itself connotes danger, or possible bodily harm. Your friend failed to heed the advice of your knowledge of the area and the alarms set off and you two unfortunately paid the price. In Gwen's case, how could she have possibly foreseen not only harm, but her murder ? Gwen, like most of us, probably thought that her deception was not punishable by murder. ...So misleading or deception are grounds for murder, or does it only apply to the nuances and situations of the transgendered world, particularly when the victim is only 17 ?

By the way, I'm glad you two got some justice from your horrific experience.

[GroobySteven]

Regardless, she should have seen that it could cause a problem whether she was advised to or not. Again, her ignorance or immaturity put herself in a bad position. Quinn's story is exactly the same - they went somewhere they shouldn't have not knowing the outcome could get so bad and when some bad people came along, they were caught in that wrong place.
It's very sad.
Hopefully, this story might help some others by educating them so they are wiser in their decisions.

Those bleating that murder is always murder and it's never the victims fault - just aren't living in the real world. If only we had such a utopian society but we don't - day to day we're constantly making decisions to our own survival, we're making judgement calls based on our experiences and knowledge - but murder does happen, this one would have been avoided if she'd made the decision not to go home with them and not to fool them into thinking she was a genetic female.
RG4Me - misleading and deception are the cause for murder on a daily basis - from a wife cheating on a husband, to a business cheat to a soldier in Iraq - of course it's not just in the transgender world.
I think some of you just have blinkers on that this was a 17 yr old tranny and read/watch stuff on a daily basis that doesn't get you as irate as this.
seanchai

[Realgirls4me]

Sean,

I don't exist in a black and white, or utopian world. I never said that if the end result of a situation is murder, that it wasn't the result of some factors the victim possibly could have done or not done differently, but I will hold my ground and once again say that in this specific case, she did not deserve to be beaten, much less murdered. I'm still confused as to how some of you want to assign her any fault at all. Assign her fault for the company she made, or for not knowing what lurked in the twisted mind of those punks, which no one would know, but placing fault with her, no matter how small in this case, is way off. Way off!

[GroobySteven]

I agree completely. She did not deserve that.
seanchai

[Quinn]

Realgirls4me,

Respectfully speaking, I do not see a difference – except maybe in the degree of the outcome. The connection, as I see it, is that the victim (Gwen) and I both engaged in behavior that could easily be foreseen to have had a dangerous outcome. Knowing that, we each chose to continue engaging in the act that could so obviously result in our being harmed. In her case, it resulted in a horrific death; in my case, I just received a relatively short hospital stay. To my mind, though, both instances have common elements of predictability – and hence responsibility.

As far as excusing her attacker's actions is concerned, to my mind, not one post on here has done so. Some are merely illustrating that Gwen is responsible for putting herself in a situation where this outcome was predictable, not justifiable. Were they to have given her attackers "the chair," I would have enjoyed flipping the proverbial switch as much as anyone.

Hope this clarifies what I was attempting to illustrate with my previous post.

-Quinn

[Realgirls4me]

Quinn,

I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree in this specific case. In your case, you knew, and your friend was warned, that you'd be risking life and limb treading in an area you knew could be dangerous to you. Its reputation preceded it, along with all the probable outcomes such a neighborhood may produce. In Gwen's case, the predictability of her actions had no such caveats in place. Yes, I'm pretty certain she expected a reaction, but I don't think that in her mind her worst case scenario ever -- EVER -- imagined such a violent response, much less murder. ...She deserved to be raped by the risque short skirt she wore that evening ... Ring a bell ?

[NiceGuy Eddie]

I am simply in awe of this discussion. I cannot believe that anyone would give these murderers an excuse. Is it because they did not rape her? Is it only rape ... for which there is no excuse? I mean if a man went into a woman's apartment thinking that she was in the equation (because of the perception the woman gave) and then discovered the opposite to be true ... he is then justified in raping her? I think not.

Listen... of all people, I can understand trying to find a defensible position. But there is not a defense to every act. Yes, she lied to the young men. Yes, I believe that they were not overjoyed when they discovered this fact. But please, educate me on exactly WHY she was at fault as they BEAT HER SENSELESS. Then put a PUT A ROPE AROUND HER NECK and CHOKED HER until she stopped BREATHING. Of course, understanding the forsenics dynamics... please remember that THEY CONTINUED TO CHOKE HER for sometime AFTER SHE STOPPED BREATHING to actually cause her death by asphyxiation.


I would also add that she was 17 (minor) at the time of her killing and from I`ve heard all 3 men were adults. That is a very aggravating factor
as far as the law is concerned.

[Ecstatic]

Those bleating that murder is always murder and it's never the victims fault - just aren't living in the real world.
These are not mutually exclusive concepts: murder is murder and I think the perpetrators deserved to be prosecuted and sentenced for first degree, not second degree, murder. But Gwen did expose herself to the danger, albeit by appearances unknowing of what the extent of that danger was.

But I hear you regarding the difference between the real world and the utopian ideal, Seanchai, in a slightly different context: while the ideal is that a TS should not have to fear potential danger or modify her actions due to that potential danger, any more than a black man, Quinn as a kid in Lakewood, or a gay man should fear potential danger simply because they are black, white, gay or whatever, the reality is that the danger exists, and girls need to be aware of it and take sensible precautions.

[Ecstatic]

Did anyone catch the Today show interview with Gwen's mother and lawyer? Nicely balanced, positive, thoughtful, not at all sensational: they got this one right. Gwen's mother said she was satisfied with the second degree murder conviction but not with the omission of a hate crime conviction which would have added four years to the sentences and, more importantly, emphasized the true nature of the crime. She (Gwen's mom) has been speaking in public schools and elsewhere raising awareness. The backstory case review also stated that, while the sentence is 15 to life, it is improbable that the convicted killers will get released early and will likely serve the full term.

[SouthoftheBorder]

Hi everybody!
This is my first post after reading this forum for a while. And actually Gwen´s dead and the comments in this thread pushed me to register and participate.
I would like to take this to the concept Seanchai stated. This happen in this world and it´s not a perfect world. However, you can reduce the posibilities of something to happen to you if you are aware of your surroundings. Unfortunattly most of us get into situations we don´t want and it´s when things could happen. Is there any assurance that if she had told the guys she was a TS they would have respect her? No.
We all run into risky situations. I would rather send send a message to everyone out there to be aware and always be carefull.

[d]

some of you live in a magical world full of unicorns and rainbows if you think people as a whole are good and virtuous. a guy who isn't in to trannys who's been tricked into thinking he was with a girl is probably the one of most dangerous persons on earth. on hungangels it ends as a hot text story, in real life it usually ends with injury or murder

[Realgirls4me]

I hope you're not referring to me ?

[ARMANIXXX]

Once again,

Its a shame what happened,

But to believe 3 young straight men/boys are gonna be ok with being tricked, well...thats enough naivety to spread several times over.

[Ecstatic]

No one believes it's ok to be tricked, but it's infinitely less acceptable to take violent, and especially lethal, action because you've been tricked.

[GMan]

No one believes it's ok to be tricked, but it's infinitely less acceptable to take violent, and especially lethal, action because you've been tricked.

I've been keeping my mouth shut on this for good reason, unlike a lot of people, I believe that if Gwen had been open, upfront, and honest about this, she'd still be alive today. Think about it this way; if you were not into transsexuals, and you were at a party, and you picked up this 'hot chick', had sex with her, and then found out...wouldn't you be pissed? Hell, I know some guys that if that ever happened to them, the body would never be found. It doesn't excuse the crime, but.....you've got to take some responsibility and protect yourself upfront.

[gfromnynowinfl]

This is my first post here and its difficult to read this thread. I agree with you all in saying that murder is of course wrong and nobody deserves what happened here, however i think that for many of you to believe that she did not put herself in harms way is a bit naive. To think that everybody in this world would not react violently to finding out that the person they were with was in fact of the opposite gender is misguided. It in no way condones the actions but it is not at all unthinkable that some may react violently. Just my opinion.

[blacktsjessica]

IM REALLY SORRY TO HEAR THIS, BUT ITS NO EXCUSE TO KILL HER YES SHE DID A VERY BAD THING, SHES A YOUNG TRANNIE HAVING FUN BEING PASSABLE. TIME AND TIME AGAIN I MAKE SURE I TELL GUYS IM TRANS EVEN IF THEY DO GET UPSET BECAUSE I ASSUME THEY NO, NOWADAYS ITS NO SECRET WHAT TO LOOK FOR IN A TRANS UNLESS YOU ARE UNDENIABLE AND IM NOT THAT IM PASSABLE TO A CERTAIN EXTAINT BUT I STILL TELL IM A TRANS.

SO PLEASE LADIES DONT PUT YOURSELF IN THAT KIND OF DANGER DICK ITS NOT WORTH LOOSING YOUR LIFE OVER.

[Realgirls4me]

I'm really getting sick and tired being labeled "naive" or living in La-La land by some in here because I felt the killers carried their rage above and beyond what a rational person would do. Is that the way you guys react ?

... Did this young woman either intentionally or inadvertently deceive these punks ? Yep. Did she deserve to be the subject of anger and rage ? Possibly. Did she deserve to die, particularly how they went about it ? Hell fuckin' no !!! Hell no!

And fuck all of you who seem to think that the manifestation of their rage was somehow justified because she should have known better, or some other irrational bullshit.

[Ecstatic]

Well said, realgirls4me. That same logic has been used to excuse rape ("she was asking for it--look at how she was dressed"), but it doesn't work there and sure doesn't work here. Yes, she put herself at risk (though at 17, even if intentional, I doubt she really understood the implications), but that does not excuse their actions. Yes, girls should take a lesson and be careful because there are guys out there who will react that way: but that's only sensible, it doesn't in any way exonerate them.

[Realgirls4me]

Thanks, Ecstatic. I grew up in the "hood' and witnessed many acts by thugs that defied common sense and reason, and I never excused their actions either, even though I knew all about the element we were all being brought up in.

What kind of animals commit such despicable acts, but worse, what kind of people simply shrug their shoulders and dismiss it as Oh, she should have known better ... thereby placing the burden of blame on the victim ?! By that reasoning, almost anything can be excused by how one internalizes it and spins it.


...I should have shot and killed that guy who deceived me in poker and took home all my $20.00. Did he not know who he was messing with ?! Do I get a pass here ?

[tsluva]

why isn't this murder case considered a capital murder charge
instead of 2nd degree ?

it sounds as premeditated of a hate-crime as they come.

[NiceGuy Eddie]

Sounds to me that that was a typical jealousy crime. Gwen decided she`d suck some other guys, and those 2 guys that murdered her they felt rejected and decided to kill her.

That story about them being "tricked", well, I don`t believe it. Sounds like the usual b.s. murder suspects make up when they`re being caught red-handed. "Your honor, its been proven beyond reasonable doubt that I`m the murderer here, but... " Well, fuck your "but`s..." I don`t wanna hear them. You`ve been found guilty of murder, so now you will go to jail for the rest of your life. End of the line. There is no "valid" reason to murder someone else.

[Vicki Richter]

Realgrls4me, I am wondering if you are just trying to provoke a response here at this point.

Question A (which you won't answer): Did she, through her actions, provoke a potentially dangerous reaction:

Answer: yes.

Question B (which you won't answer): Has anyone in this entire thread say, "she got what she deserved" or "she provoked the act of murder"?

Answer: no. - they have said she put herself in a dangerous situation

Question C (which you won't answer): Was this the first transgendered person beaten or murdered for being transgendered?

Answer: no

I'm a bit of an expert on the english language and I am wondering why you keep getting so mad at people for just stating some facts based upon the reality of the world we live in. I had some hispanic acquaintences (not friends mind you) in high school who used to take lead pipes and go out and beat transients for no reason, other than the fact that they were homeless people, and then brag about it. Kids (and adults) kill other kids (or adults) for dumb reasons. Young people do fucked up things without thinking them through. God knows why.

Transgendered people are often subjects of hate crimes. This is a high profile case, but many occur that don't get this kind of publicity. Every single TG knows this stuff happens or can happen. Just like a soldier knows that if he goes out into parts of Iraq without a weapon and alone, he very well might be killed. Would he deserve to be killed? No. Would people say he put himself in harms way. Yes.

Just admit that her actions provoked a potentially threatening response and move on. It doesn't excuse the murder. It doesn't justify the murder. It was a truly brutal, sick, and heinous crime. I will say this much, if it had been a one on one type of action and the guy found out in the heat of passion and murdered her, we would likely be talking about a case where the guy may have gotten off. Men have gotten off for murdering their cheating wives or their lovers for temporary insanity. We have a judicial system, not a justice system.

[GroobySteven]

I've got to say, I keep wondering why you keep bringing this back around to the point that people on this forum, think her actions justified her murder, I don't see anyone having made that statement, in fact, quite the opposite. The statement that seems to have been made (and the one which I've written about and agree with) is that she did have responsibility in the actions she took as we all do. The fact that they led to her death, is tragic but had she not deceived those individuals and put herself into that position, she would have probably still been alive.
This is not a way to justify or excuse what happened to her whatsoever, she was murdered and those who done the deed have been caught and punished in accordance with the laws.
The only naiviety I see is that you seem to think that a 17 year old adult is not aware of her actions and consquential reactios. I'm along way from 17 but I know I was aware enough at the time to judge situations.

The points you agree with support what people are stating on this forum - so why do you misread it, that people are excusing their actions?
seanchai

[Vicki Richter]

This is the second or third thread that Seanchi has agreed with me on. The first two were about shemaleyum being a good site.

[GroobySteven]

The 4th one might be about you spelling my name correctly?
seanchai

[chefmike]

The 4th one might be about you spelling my name correctly?
seanchaiyeah he's seanchai...isn't seanchi related to that tae-bo fella?

[sexyguyinsf]

Well actually I don't think it was about decieving anyone she had sex with two of the guys a few times before.I believe what happened was they got caught and couldn't explain why they kept going back.So ti cover up what was happening they killed her.Anyone who say's its justified is an idiot especially because the girl in question was very young and just wanted to be with guys.Anyways I hope they get beaten and raped in prison and eye for an eye.

[Realgirls4me]

Vicki.
Vicki.
Vicki.

Afford me more credit than that, will you ? I certainly feel I’m capable if not resourceful enough to post something, anything, to elicit a reaction from my brethren in here if that’s what I truly want. I simply get tired of reading another person come in and imply or directly assert that I, and possibly others who feel as I do, are either “naïve”, “ignorant”, or residing in some utopian paradise void of rage, anger and/or violence because I(we) put far – FAR -- more blame were it’s rightly deserved – with the defendents, than that of a 17 year old -- A 17 YEAR OLD.

It’s this indifferent, almost callous, shrug of the shoulder attitude toward the victim that I sense from some in here by their finger-pointing and fault finding of the girl that eats at me.

(Sean will probably roll his eyes with the coming analogy, but I use it simply to illustrate my point.)

It’s Mississippi at the turn of the 20th century and a 17 year old black youth missing for a few days was found lynched in the woods. Let’s put your questions to task now supplanting her gender in the place of his color:

Question A (which you won't answer): Did she, through her actions, provoke a potentially dangerous reaction:

Answer: yes. He shouldn’t have been born black and been wiser than his 17 years of age would dictate, right ?

Question B (which you won't answer): Has anyone in this entire thread say, "she got what she deserved" or "she provoked the act of murder"?

Answer: no. - they have said she put herself in a dangerous situation Yeah, most 17 year olds I know have this death wish, particularly following a sexual tryst [ This again places the onus of blame on the victim rather than the defendents and culture of paranoia that allows it.]

Question C (which you won't answer): Was this the first transgendered person beaten or murdered for being transgendered?

Answer: no And ??? I'm missing your "point" here ... Are you suggesting it should ?


It’s the culture, society, and climate of indifference in that region at that time that made such horrific episodes commonplace and possible. In other words, something (cognitive dissonance?) found that blaming the victim was far easier than questioning our collective souls and conscienous. Working to rid the ideology underpinning these horrific and deadly acts was beyond the imagination, comprehension, and grasp, of most, so “dealing” with it meant copping out to blaming the victim, as many are doing to Gwen it seems to me. That’s the way things were in the south for so long except for the courage of some to challenge the status quo, and because of them we are all better for it today. We can go the easy route and blame, or find some fault with Gwen, or we can place blame where it squarely belongs: with the animals and indifferent, almost permissive, culture that begets such violence.

Maybe I'm too much of a dreamer longing for a time when a guy's reaction to being freshly decieved by a TS, intentionally or unintentionally, will be a a casual shrug of the shoulder on his part and nothing more, but until the day comes when the majority of men are secure with who they are (manhood or whatever) and not out beating or killing TS women, I'll keep placing blame firmly where it belongs -- with the culture that spawns such paranoia, hatred, and violence. Not at victims like Gwen.

You want reaction ? Shock value ? I would absolutely love to wake up to your avatar for a month.

:)

[GroobySteven]

I'm off to have a conversation with my pet turnip, he may be a bit funny looking and have a funky odour but at least he doesn't answer back with pointless analogies.
:roll:
:roll:
:roll:
:roll:
seanchai

[Realgirls4me]

sean,

I forgot to send my letter today (it's on my desk here), so please put aside volumes 3, 5, and 14 aside, with volume 7(?) as a default one.


... My post was directed at Vicki, and I was being facetious mentioning your name.

[Vicki Richter]

Just consider the fact that the guys got off with worse than they would have in other parts of the country. As I said before this is not an isolated incident. It actually happens more often than we would like to think.

http://www.outinmadison.com/home/news.asp?articleid=9623

This article totally highlights my earlier points about certain practices being unsafe no matter how good you look. Girls, you're life is worth 4 years if you deceive a guy into thinking you are a GG.

[andyuk]

just read this.
poor girl
may she rest in peace.

[alphanumeric]

I kinda think it was her fault cause she didnt tell them "T" ... Sad tho! :cry:

It was in no way shape or form that INNOCENT girls fault! Maye be she should have been up front with them but there is no excuse for assault let alone MURDER!

I'm sorry to sound harsh But I'm sick and tired of poeple always blaming the victim in these circumstances.

[alphanumeric]

I kinda think it was her fault cause she didnt tell them "T" ... Sad tho! :cry:

It was in no way shape or form that INNOCENT girls fault! Maye be she should have been up front with them but there is no excuse for assault let alone MURDER!

I'm sorry to sound harsh But I'm sick and tired of poeple always blaming the victim in these circumstances.

[alphanumeric]

I think Kiely_Marie makes a good point.

In my opionion, Gwen is accountable for what happened to her. Obviously there are many men who are not interested in having sex with men and/or transgendered women and trying to fool them into doing so is serious business.....DEATHLY serious. Unfortunately she was only 17 and she probably was too young and unaware how serious this type of "prank" is.

I don't believe these guys should get off totally scott free, but I think lessening their punishment would help to hold Gwen accountable as well as the young men who did this.

Thanks ARMANIXXX ... U got my point!

and your still both wrong!

[62des]

I kinda think it was her fault cause she didnt tell them "T" ... Sad tho! :cry:

It was in no way shape or form that INNOCENT girls fault! Maye be she should have been up front with them but there is no excuse for assault let alone MURDER!

I'm sorry to sound harsh But I'm sick and tired of poeple always blaming the victim in these circumstances.

Yes it was all her fault. She should've been upfront BEFORE the sexual encounters. Don't even say it wasn't their business because once you have sex with someone you have a right to know about anything wrong (notthat anything was wrong but he definetly had a right to know she was a TG). But I agree murdering her didn't solve anything and they shouldn't have done it but those are the consequenses of doing things of that nature. That's why I don't understand why TG's do this all the time. Trying to get a guy to change for her. Its risky and would be safer to do this with so called "tranny chasers".

[alphanumeric]

I think I see the problem here and bear in mind that it is not just here but everywhere in society.

we're using euphemisms like "Biggotry" or "hate crime" when what we're talking about is Evil.

Pure and simple old fashioned Evil. and what saddnes me is how permissive we've become of Evil lately, we make excuses, keep our heads down and don't stand up for what is right anymore. it's really a case of Not My Problem. If it didn't happen to us or someone close to us. then we shake our heads cluck our tongues and go on with our day.

I think the reason is because we see it around us so much now every day. it's on tv in the news papers movies are made about it. it is pervasive and it is everywhere.

50 years ago I probably would not have heard about this. hell most people haven't heard about this crime, because it's one of thousands commited every day and simply put, not even a big deal deal. for compare it to columbine.

Now I know I'm comparing apples to oranges but in a way thats my point we've grown a little to comfortable with "personal evil" something that struck only one or two individuals. the solitary murder. The solitary rape. We only seem to react to the BIG stuff anymore. Columbine, 911, it takes a massive disp;lay of Evil for us to get worked up about it anymore.

and I think that scares me more than anything. Joseph stalin once said "a single death is a tragedy a million deaths is a statistic." and as monsterous and evil as HE was he was right.

So in the end I think we should ALL stand up more. wqe should all say this is enough! No more

And in end I offer up this last quote by Edmund Burke.

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."

[Falrune]

Wow. This thread is two years old!

I'd have to agree with those who are amazed that some would hold a 17 yo responsible for her own murder. She may be responsible for some of the disappointment that those boys had, but the murder that followed was a completely unjustifiable reaction by the perpetrators.