Scene After IDF Attack In Gaza 1/1/09

[praetor]

Dismal, take your own conclusions.


http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=3b3_1230864719

[hondarobot]

That's horrible, I made it through about a minute of the video. Israel is going to do horrible damage while still under the Bush umbrella. They won the fight, fair/unfair, just/unjust, or whatever. It was over a long time ago.

Life is ugly sometimes, and that's unfortunate. Hopefully things will improve.

[GroobySteven]

Disgusting - and sanctioned by the West?

This should be shown on mainstream media.

[fred41]

Disgusting - and sanctioned by the West?

This should be shown on mainstream media.

What would you have Israel do...they get rocket attacks constantly from these areas.

[hondarobot]

Disgusting - and sanctioned by the West?

This should be shown on mainstream media.

What would you have Israel do...they get rocket attacks constantly from these areas.

Well, short answer, those rockets are crap and only result in civilian casualties on both sides, and Israel hits back pretty hard. Regardless of the issues, at this point some common sense has to applied.

[Carlos]

Is it just me or has anyone else put this together...
Israel is doing this now because they won't be able to in less than 3 weeks. Barack will not allow the Middle East to head down this path of destruction.
Israel will be held accountable for retaliation attacks. Because these attacks are killing lots of innocent people.

Israel has tanks, jets, weapons of all sorts. And Hamas doesn't. To me Israel wants to punish Palistine. Just like other nations in Israel's biblical history punished them.

The part of Israel that the Hamas rockets can hit has early warning systems and although yes it is bad to get attacked in any way you have be balanced on what damage it is actually doing. Almost none. The reports from Israel only say how many rockets Hamas fires, They fire a lot but with a death toll of 4. If you fire 80 rockets and only kill 4 that's pretty low. You don't see pictures of homes & businesses destroyed from Hamas rockets because there isn't much damage.

Yo Fred...come on dude lets be real..

The 80 rocket attacks from Hamas has killed a total of 4 people from Israel. 4 Dude. these rockets are home made with the force of half a stick of dynamite. While Israel who does have the right to defend itself has killed 400 in just 2 days. Is that equal? The Hamas rockets aren't hitting much of anything & every now & then get lucky & does hit something. Do you go in with Air strikes & 10,000 ground troops over that? The answer is No. Its like getting a hammer to swat a fly.

I'm not on anyone's side but these folks don't have an airforce. but yet they have fighter jets raining missiles on them.
They throw rocks & bottles at Israeli troops & get gunned down. That Ain't right. The fight is no where equal & shouldn't be allowed to go on. You don't punish a whole group of people because a few are bad. Israel holds control of one of the two borders and can allow or stop aid, water, food, money from heading to Gaza. They shouldn't be subject to that as a people.

[brickcitybrother]

Three weeks is a lifetime away. Something should be done now!

[hondarobot]

Correct. The problem is most people watch the major media, and don't realize the people getting blown up in these videos are just people heading to work, not hurting anybody.

[uber_nerd]

4 deaths?

You need to put a bibliography at the end of your posts.

[hondarobot]

Bottom line, people are being attacked via people with explosives strapped to their body, walking into a pizza shack. The people of Israel react with bombing the hell out of Palestine.

Innocent people killed on both sides. I honestly have no idea what's going on over there. It's crazy.

[collegeguy21]

great... now how am i supposed to get off

[ef9hatchman]

Bottom line, people are being attacked via people with explosives strapped to their body, walking into a pizza shack. The people of Israel react with bombing the hell out of Palestine.

Innocent people killed on both sides. I honestly have no idea what's going on over there. It's crazy.
you have no idea. this video isnt shit compared what has already been happening.Dude my mother grew up in a middle eastern country. To be christian you can be beaten up because people think if your not their religion your like a devil or some shit now im kind of glad I know Arabic so if a muthereffer tryn to blow something up near me im running like woah hoe. :D.These attacks by the hamas are stepping stones to WW3. just my :2cent

[Carlos]

Hey nerd is this good enough:
reported by the associated press yes only 4 out of over 80 rocket attacks:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/ml_israel_palestinians

Israel's bruising air campaign against Gaza over the past eight days began days after a six-month truce expired. Gaza health officials say the air war has killed more than 480 Palestinians in an attempt to halt Hamas rocket attacks that were reaching farther into Israel than ever before. Four Israelis have been killed by rockets.

Israel is taking a risk by wading into intense urban warfare in densely populated Gaza that could exact a much higher toll on both sides and among civilians.

Yo Honda its like what came first the chicken or the egg? Yes folks are strapping bomb and killing people but think of it as there version of an aircraft missile attacks since they don't have any any jets. This is not due to a bomber it is in response to small bullshit home built missile attacks. They aren't even killing a lot of Hamas folks its the innocent folks.

Lol. Hilarious CollegeGuy

[hondarobot]

Hey nerd is this good enough:
reported by the associated press yes only 4 out of over 80 rocket attacks:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/ml_israel_palestinians

Israel's bruising air campaign against Gaza over the past eight days began days after a six-month truce expired. Gaza health officials say the air war has killed more than 480 Palestinians in an attempt to halt Hamas rocket attacks that were reaching farther into Israel than ever before. Four Israelis have been killed by rockets.

Israel is taking a risk by wading into intense urban warfare in densely populated Gaza that could exact a much higher toll on both sides and among civilians.

Yo Honda its like what came first the chicken or the egg? Yes folks are strapping bomb and killing people but think of it as there version of an aircraft missile attacks since they don't have any any jets. This is not due to a bomber it is in response to small bullshit home built missile attacks. They aren't even killing a lot of Hamas folks its the innocent folks.

I have no right to judge what anyone in that situation is doing, I'm not there. You do have to realize it is futile for Palestine to fight Israel, though? Right or wrong at this point. How could that battle benefit anyone? They can't win.

[Danielle Foxx]

This made me cry - I am ashamed of being a human after seeing that.

[hondarobot]

But, I hope to focus on being a better person this New Year.

[hondarobot]

Double post, doh

[Carlos]

So true they can't win.
But you must think any group that is willing to die to the very last person for their beliefs.
You must respect that.

Hmmm I've heard that somewhere in history before:
Maybe http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Revolutionary_War

By no means was the U.S. supposed to win. The British should have crushed us. But we fought anyway. Israel will crush them but the Arab nations will not allow it. There are too many nations Egypt, Syria, Jordan that would step in if it gets too far and it would be WW3. None of the Arab nations want to step in but will be forced to since their people in the streets will call for it.

Since Israel has the upper hand they need to try to come to some agreement, but if they do they don't want to look pressured or defeated. so they won't really try to resolve the issue. So it will go on till WW3. Funny the Bible starts with Israel and the 3 people left after WW3 will tell of history ending with them.

[hondarobot]

So true they can't win.
But you must think any group that is willing to die to the very last person for their beliefs.
You must respect that.

Hmmm I've heard that somewhere in history before:
Maybe http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Revolutionary_War

By no means was the U.S. supposed to win. The British should have crushed us. But we fought anyway. Israel will crush them but the Arab nations will not allow it. There are too many nations Egypt, Syria, Jordan that would step in if it gets too far and it would be WW3. None of the Arab nations want to step in but will be forced to since their people in the streets will call for it.

Since Israel has the upper hand they need to try to come to some agreement, but if they do they don't want to look pressured or defeated. so they won't really try to resolve the issue. So it will go on till WW3. Funny the Bible starts with Israel and the 3 people left after WW3 will tell of history ending with them.

Nobody really want's to crush the Arab nations, the're cool. Generally speaking, you have more beautiful women, but you guys get kinda pissed off for reasons we don't really understand.

I don't understand it.

[Carlos]

Lol.

Being from NYC I've been damn near every type of chick...I'd hit it.
The weirdest part might be
If they'd say "Ohh Allah" during sex.
I'm so used to hearing "Ohh God" or "Jesus".

lol

[hondarobot]

So true they can't win.
But you must think any group that is willing to die to the very last person for their beliefs.
You must respect that.

Hmmm I've heard that somewhere in history before:
Maybe http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Revolutionary_War

By no means was the U.S. supposed to win. The British should have crushed us. But we fought anyway. Israel will crush them but the Arab nations will not allow it. There are too many nations Egypt, Syria, Jordan that would step in if it gets too far and it would be WW3. None of the Arab nations want to step in but will be forced to since their people in the streets will call for it.

Since Israel has the upper hand they need to try to come to some agreement, but if they do they don't want to look pressured or defeated. so they won't really try to resolve the issue. So it will go on till WW3. Funny the Bible starts with Israel and the 3 people left after WW3 will tell of history ending with them.

No, I don't respect people killing other people for their convictions, because then some person who couldn't care less gets caught in the crossfire. That's what happens, it's happening today, watch the news.

[muhmuh]

lets not forget some of their great political leaders shall we
http://www.monabaker.com/quotes.htm

[Solitary Brother]

People who are saying Israel is doing this are DEAD WRONG@!

[Solitary Brother]

Israel did NOT do this.

[ef9hatchman]

Lol.

Being from NYC I've been damn near every type of chick...I'd hit it.
The weirdest part might be
If they'd say "Ohh Allah" during sex.
I'm so used to hearing "Ohh God" or "Jesus".

lol

I smell BS.

Dude,Arab nations are what keep economy going. They have all the oil they control the world.

[Solitary Brother]

We the american people did this.
Israel can do NOTHING by itself.
Without american Israel would not even exist.
Why do "they" hate us?


Exhibit A

[Border80]

Some of the responses on here disgust me. The Hamas are a bunch of animals using civilians as cover who ALLOW it to occur, then you get angry with Israel for defending itself? It's ridiculous. Try talking to someone who is actually in the IDF (Israeli Defense Forces) and learning about what the Palestinians actually do that is NOT reported in our media, you may have a different view after that.

[arnie666]

Some of the responses on here disgust me. The Hamas are a bunch of animals using civilians as cover who ALLOW it to occur, then you get angry with Israel for defending itself? It's ridiculous. Try talking to someone who is actually in the IDF (Israeli Defense Forces) and learning about what the Palestinians actually do that is NOT reported in our media, you may have a different view after that.

I agree the hypcrisy of some here would be stunning to those who have not realised that this place has a nest of rabid leftists

for instance

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/22/world/middleeast/22cnd-lebanon.html?_r=1

Can anyone who is mildly sane and not frothing at the mouth at the very idea that Israel is defending itself care to explain where was the horror condemnation and a thread devoted to the above on this site becauseI cannot remember seeing one.But then Israel is just meant to sit there and let those dirty bastards fire rockets at them. The fact is the Pallys are like the pikeys of the middle east. The only reason anyone in the middle east 'supports' them is because they are a stick to beat Israel with.

But at the end of the day it is the children of both sides who suffer because of Adults refusing to sit at a table and work things out.The British and Irish, unionist and republicans did it over Northern Ireland when there were two communities who hated each other and there is still hate and suspicion to a degree but at least the violence has stopped.Because people realised the futility of it.

[Jolt711ml]

America can't continue nor afford too keep backing Israel, world war 3 in the midst!

[GroobySteven]

Some of the responses on here disgust me. The Hamas are a bunch of animals using civilians as cover who ALLOW it to occur, then you get angry with Israel for defending itself? It's ridiculous. Try talking to someone who is actually in the IDF (Israeli Defense Forces) and learning about what the Palestinians actually do that is NOT reported in our media, you may have a different view after that.

Try talking to some of the British forces when the IRA was killing women and children (and soldiers) - and funds were being collected for the IRA on the streets of NYC.

Try talking to the German occupying army when the French Resistance were killing and bombing their soldiers.

Try talking to a Vietnam vet when the Vietcong were killing their friends.

I'm not making direct comparisons between these conflicts but my point is, obviously the IDF has a skewered view - and the Palestinians a different one. Yet many innocents are being caught in the middle and the strikes that Israel have taken seem to be taking down more innocents, than legitimate targets.
A little restraint.

Arnie, it's got ZERO to do with being leftist - that's a pathetic and sad comment for people who don't want to see innocent civilians caught in the crossfire of any war. Absolutely pathetic and shows your ignorance.

[praetor]

A question without answer i read in Vanguard News Network:

What a Jewy thing to do. Did you know that the Geneva Conventions - which Israel ratified in 1951 - prohibit using military force against civilians? But then, when you’re a Jew, rules don’t apply to you.

http://www.vanguardnewsnetwork.com/

[vicky]

I don't post much but. If Hamas laid down its rockets and quit firing, made not threat against Isreal the fighting would end. If Isreal laid down its arm and stopped fighting Hamas would kill every jew they could. I could be wrong but i doubt it.
It is sad to see civilian deaths on either side. When you have a group who dresses like the civilian and hides amongst them it is going to happen. It happens when you have two uniformed armies. God be with the wounded and their families on both sides

[hondarobot]

Well, it's 6pm Sunday right now in Jerusalem. If anyone reading this forum happens to be in Gaza (and isn't a bad guy) you should get the hell out now. I suspect in around 10 hours or so a massive beatdown is going to occur.

Adios, Hamas.

[Tepres]

It's only fair to show the other side's point of view.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6TexcGsFiBE&feature=related

[Border80]

Try talking to some of the British forces when the IRA was killing women and children (and soldiers) - and funds were being collected for the IRA on the streets of NYC.

Try talking to the German occupying army when the French Resistance were killing and bombing their soldiers.

Try talking to a Vietnam vet when the Vietcong were killing their friends.

I'm not making direct comparisons between these conflicts but my point is, obviously the IDF has a skewered view - and the Palestinians a different one. Yet many innocents are being caught in the middle and the strikes that Israel have taken seem to be taking down more innocents, than legitimate targets.
A little restraint.

Arnie, it's got ZERO to do with being leftist - that's a pathetic and sad comment for people who don't want to see innocent civilians caught in the crossfire of any war. Absolutely pathetic and shows your ignorance.

I agree there are two sides to every story, I'm not disputing that at all. And I do think it's terrible that civilians are getting caught up in the mess however to purely blame Israel for the conflict is just wrong. Israel fires sound bombs before the actual missle attacks to warn civilians, not only that, the amount of aid and emergency supplies they are sending into Gaza has increased since they started the campaign, it's Hamas taking control of the shipments and refusing to allow the civilians to have access.

Overall, I'm tired of people defending the Palestinian government who don't allow basic human rights to many members of it's population.

[dave252]

hamas has been bombing civilians since june when they violated the cease fire. where is the outrage against terrorism? if any of you think that only nazis died in german, you are niaive. war is horrible, but inevitable. isreal is not innocent either, they have treated the palestinians like dirt since the inception of isreal.

[fred41]

Right now that video link everyone is looking at (unless it was changed) shows kids blown up when a "Hamas" truck blew up during a parade several years ago.

Israel has to take the offensive here and blow up supply lines , weapons depots...and military instalations in the Gaza strip NOW...before the rockets become more and more sophisticated and targeting becomes more accurate. It's unfortunate that civilians sometimes die..but it's impossible to avoid when the enemy is so deeply entrenched in civilian areas.

If Israel were to wait until they took huge civilian losses because Hamas weapons were more sophisticated..would everyone be happy then because then you could sit back and say .."Now there's a fair fight!! go at it boys"...There isn't a single ally in the middle east that Israel could turn to for help in a war. They are surrounded by countries that for political or ideological reasons want them destroyed..or at the very least, wouldn't care less if they were.

If that was the home some of you were living in that were threatened by rockets...I don't think you'd care how strong your government response was.

[popperluv]

Raw; (2005) Hamas Weapons Parade Accident Kills 15, including kids

CLOSE [X]
Hamas parades weapons in Gaza, they blow up, killing 15, including kids
By israelinsider staff and partners September 23, 2005



Dead and wounded at the Hamas rally. Parading homemade weapons can be dangerous. (AP)

A pickup truck carrying masked militants blew up at a Hamas rally on Friday, killing at least 15 Palestinians and wounding 80, The PA Interior Ministry confirmed More...

Witnesses said the truck carried homemade weapons, and Palestinian security officials said the blast apparently was caused by the mishandling of weapons. Hamas blamed Israel, saying Israeli aircraft flew overhead during the rally. Israel denied it was involved.

Seven of the wounded were in serious condition, hospital doctors said.

The rally was held in the Jebaliya refugee camp. Witnesses said participants crowded around the pickup truck carrying militants when the explosion went off. The witnesses said the truck carried homemade weapons.

One man, who only gave his first name, Hussam, said he helped pull three men out of the pickup, two dead and one man who was still alive, but had a leg severed. The side of the pickup was charred.

The witness said he saw five dead children nearby. Dozens of children were wounded in the blast. The Hamas military wing, Izzedine al Qassam, is popular with youngsters. When the pickup with the gunmen arrived at the rally, many children crowded around the vehicle.

After the blast, men carried bloody body parts and lifeless bodies wrapped in blankets to nearby cars.

The dead and wounded were taken to nearby hospitals. Doctors initally said they had a total of 56 wounded at two hospitals, but Hamas later revised the figure to 45 wounded. The toll was later revised upward again on Saturday, to 140.

At Shifa, doctors had to treat patients on the floor of the emergency room because they ran out of beds. Masked Hamas men wheeled in casualties, including children.

[Coroner]

Since it´s obvious that both sides have nothing to offer but propaganda, hate, racism and violence, you guys shouldn´t take sides. The Hamas is a fascist movement whose ideology traces back to the early 20th century. But only the Hamas targeting Israeli civilians and soldiers is not the whole truth.

[ghostmonkey22]

The thing about it is Israel is the good guy to think that Obama is gonna do anything to stop Israel from defending itself is ridiculous Israel will do whatever it sees fit in order to defend itself have you forgotten that it is surrounded by people who see them as little more that walking sh*t and will do all in their power o take them out. Anyone who watches bodies being carried out of rubble should (1) remember that this is war although it is unfortunate the innocent do die I feel for the families of the victims but it is something that happens that is what makes war so horrible (2) question the source why are they only showing bloody children and women what about innocent men i'm sure their dying just as much it's all propaganda their showing these images because it builds support for a terrorist organization which as inflicted more than 458 (as of last night) casualties on the Israeli people. I support Israel because if you don't stand up to the bully your gonna be his b*tch the rest of your life

Ghost

[Niccolo]

Arnie, it's got ZERO to do with being leftist - that's a pathetic and sad comment for people who don't want to see innocent civilians caught in the crossfire of any war. Absolutely pathetic and shows your ignorance. - seanchai

Such emotive language and ad hominem attacks don't actually explain your position. If one's being "leftist" has "ZERO" to do with whatever you are trying to say about Israel, perhaps you ought to explain why that is so.

And let's just assume for the sake of argument that no one wants to see civilians caught in the crossfire of any war. It does not follow that war is never going to be necessary. Nor does it follow that the civilian population, in any war, is "innocent" (whatever you mean by that.)

Care to try again?

[Niccolo]

I don't post much but. If Hamas laid down its rockets and quit firing, made not threat against Israel the fighting would end. If Israel laid down its arms and stopped fighting Hamas would kill every jew they could. I could be wrong but i doubt it. - vicky


You could be wrong, but I doubt it too Vicky.

[Niccolo]

Border80 wrote:
Some of the responses on here disgust me. The Hamas are a bunch of animals using civilians as cover who ALLOW it to occur, then you get angry with Israel for defending itself? It's ridiculous. Try talking to someone who is actually in the IDF (Israeli Defense Forces) and learning about what the Palestinians actually do that is NOT reported in our media, you may have a different view after that.



Try talking to some of the British forces when the IRA was killing women and children (and soldiers) - and funds were being collected for the IRA on the streets of NYC.

Try talking to the German occupying army when the French Resistance were killing and bombing their soldiers.

Try talking to a Vietnam vet when the Vietcong were killing their friends.

I'm not making direct comparisons between these conflicts but my point is, obviously the IDF has a skewered view - and the Palestinians a different one. - seanchai

All you seem to be doing here is repeating the original poster's point, namely that the Israelis who have been subject to terrorist attacks will have a different perspective than most of the people who use this message board. In short, you haven't added anything to the debate at all.

Care to try again?

[Niccolo]

Yet many innocents are being caught in the middle and the strikes that Israel have taken seem to be taking down more innocents, than legitimate targets.
A little restraint. - seanchai

Show me where you have called for "restraint" from the other side.

And please explain clearly what you mean by the term "restraint" - I am guessing it is a pseudo-military concept, which you have invented out of thin air.

When you define this term, which you apparently want to employ in your argument about Israel, remember to give details of your own military experience, if you have any, and explain why you think your military knowledge matches that of the Israeli commanders. After all, I assume you would like anyone reading your posts to take what you're saying seriously, and not just dismiss them as the ramblings of a treasonous bleeding-heart do-gooder, who sympathises with Islamic terrorists and would like nothing better than seeing a green flag flying over their own country.

[Hannibal Lecter]

The only thing that really matters to me right now is that 59 innocent children died in those attacks so long.
And I do not blame Jews nor Palestinians for this. It's Germans. Everything is their fault. And entire Europe's
as well. They started all this shit. And if You ask me, the state of Izrael should have been placed in the heart
of Europe. Because they are european people. Unwanted european people. Don't You remember that?

[werwt22]

Right now that video link everyone is looking at (unless it was changed) shows kids blown up when a "Hamas" truck blew up during a parade several years ago.

Israel has to take the offensive here and blow up supply lines , weapons depots...and military instalations in the Gaza strip NOW...before the rockets become more and more sophisticated and targeting becomes more accurate. It's unfortunate that civilians sometimes die..but it's impossible to avoid when the enemy is so deeply entrenched in civilian areas.

If Israel were to wait until they took huge civilian losses because Hamas weapons were more sophisticated..would everyone be happy then because then you could sit back and say .."Now there's a fair fight!! go at it boys"...There isn't a single ally in the middle east that Israel could turn to for help in a war. They are surrounded by countries that for political or ideological reasons want them destroyed..or at the very least, wouldn't care less if they were.

If that was the home some of you were living in that were threatened by rockets...I don't think you'd care how strong your government response was.

/Cosign

[Caff_Racer]

I fully approve of the Israeli military operation in the Gaza Strip. And I hope they won't stop until they've taken out every last Palestinian. Let's get one thing straight: there are no "innocent Palestinian civilians". Each Palestinian man, woman and child is a suicide terrorist waiting to to blow up on a bus/in a crowded market/in a busy street full of people shopping and relaxing in cafés. Palestinian parents are proud to dress their little toddlers up with military uniforms and suicide belts.

Right now a childhood friend of mine is somewhere out there in the Gaza Strip as part of the Israeli "offensive" (defensive would be nearer the mark)... I just hope that this Hero of Israel will come home safe and make his family and his friends proud for having taken out a whole load of Palestinian scum and having helped to ensure that no more Israeli babies will be blown up by Palestinian suicide bombers...

[Silcc69]

They have been fighting for thousands of years so why are people acting so surprised with what is going on. The only thing that amazes me is even though every sinlge one of these arab countries hate Israel they can't seem to wipe them off the face of the earth.

[Silcc69]

They have been fighting for thousands of years so why are people acting so surprised with what is going on. The only thing that amazes me is even though every sinlge one of these arab countries hate Israel they can't seem to wipe them off the face of the earth.

[Niccolo]

Right now that video link everyone is looking at (unless it was changed) shows kids blown up when a "Hamas" truck blew up during a parade several years ago. - fred41

That's worth repeating, given the knee-jerk reaction of some on this board. Did they even watch the video? If they did, then did they understand what they were seeing? The stupid fuckers had a load of kiddies swarming round a load of explosives, then had an ND of some kind which set the lot off. To put it bluntly, that particular incident was no one's fault but their own. Here's the key quote from the article accompanying the video:


The Hamas military wing, Izzedine al Qassam, is popular with youngsters. When the pickup with the gunmen arrived at the rally, many children crowded around the vehicle. - Liveleak (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=3b3_1230864719)


Let's play pretend. (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=I5eKXOBf5_w)

[porcazio]

I am fucking tired of paying taxes, knowing that part will be devolved to support Israel. The US sends lots of free help to Israel; that is not in my interest, nor that of most all Americans; and I really am against the support of Israel, anyhow. I believe Israel breaks every moral and legal basis that a citizen of a civilized world was brought up to expect.

[HP1000]

Israel has every right to defend themselves! What would America do if Canada or Mexico rained rockets into our cities?

Hamas has done nothing for it's people, all the funds they recieve for schools, roads and civil projects they invest in rockets and armament to support terrorism.

Israel has been soft on these idiots and are tired of biting their tounges..

Go Israel!

[EyeCumInPiece]

Personally, i dont give a shit about either side. I say we (as in the U.S.) just stay out of it and let the barbarians kill eachother. But i dont understand why (or how) Hamas continues to portray themselves as the victims in all this. I guess i was mistaken that theyve been shooting rockets at Israeli civilians for years. Oh, and i guess i was hallucinating when i seen Palestinians dancing in the streets on 9/11/01.

[rick_932]

let the barbarians kill eachother

the problem is, the "barbarians" arent just killing each other, they're killing innocent civilians also. Israel already proved its point yet it's continuing with the assault and innocent palestinians civilians are dying/being affected the most. So just because you saw a few palestinians dancing after 9/11 you think we should just say "fuck palestine" in general? Yea, i'm sure all palestinians don't give a fuck about the US...

[phobun]

I guess i was mistaken that theyve been shooting rockets at Israeli civilians for years. Oh, and i guess i was hallucinating when i seen Palestinians dancing in the streets on 9/11/01.
I have no respect for religious people of any ilk, but I detest whiny losers that start stupid wars by firing rockets into civilian areas, and I especially detest cowards that then hide among civilians.

And this whole bit about restraint and proportionate response is BS. War is all about disproportionate results... somebody loses. If the Allies had fought the Nazis proportionately, or the North had fought the South proportionately, the outcome would have been different and the world would be worse off.

This is really a dumb topic that belongs in the Politics and Religion forum. Argue all you want, but nobody is suddenly going to have an epiphany and find enlightenment. This is not what a transsexual porn forum is about.

[Silcc69]

I am fucking tired of paying taxes, knowing that part will be devolved to support Israel. The US sends lots of free help to Israel; that is not in my interest, nor that of most all Americans; and I really am against the support of Israel, anyhow. I believe Israel breaks every moral and legal basis that a citizen of a civilized world was brought up to expect.

Well of all of the countries that we send aid to Israel is one of the rare countries that actually happens to like us. We are gonna send out money regardless but i'd rather it go to countries that like us rather than ones that hate us.

[GroobySteven]

Let's get one thing straight: there are no "innocent Palestinian civilians". Each Palestinian man, woman and child is a suicide terrorist waiting to to blow up on a bus/in a crowded market/in a busy street full of people shopping and relaxing in cafés. Palestinian parents are proud to dress their little toddlers up with military uniforms and suicide belts.

I've seen Americans dress their kids up in Ku Klux Klan outfits. Does that mean all Americans think the same way?

So much hate in this post. It's really pathetic although I was taken in by the original post and didn't realize where that was an old video and not from the current situation, so I'm irritated at that - although my original points stand. Niccolo your hate doesn't isn't even worthy of a response. In fact the only appropriate post on here ...


This is really a dumb topic that belongs in the Politics and Religion forum. Argue all you want, but nobody is suddenly going to have an epiphany and find enlightenment. This is not what a transsexual porn forum is about.

... apart from showing me how many hateful, un-insightful people there are on this board. I'm realistic, I know innocent people are going to get hurt in any war, but one side committing atrocities doesn't justify another - or the rest of the world condoning it.

[Mugai_hentaisha]

Is it just me or has anyone else put this together...
Israel is doing this now because they won't be able to in less than 3 weeks. Barack will not allow the Middle East to head down this path of destruction.
Israel will be held accountable for retaliation attacks. Because these attacks are killing lots of innocent people.



LMAO

Maybe in your world where Cats have human pets and birds talk


TES

[EyeCumInPiece]

Yea, i'm sure all palestinians don't give a fuck about the US...


Yea, Precisely why i dont give a fuck about them.

[kittyKaiti]

Dismal, take your own conclusions.


http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=3b3_1230864719

HOLY SHIT

1. This belongs in the Politics and Religion section.
2. This video is NOT Israel. Read the goddamn description you retard. That is video footage of a Hamas parade in which Hamas weapons accidentally went off and blew up in a crowd of people. This has NOTHING to do with Israel. Stop being a fucking Nazi Jew hater.
3. Israel has the fucking right to defend itself and I fully support their actions. I bet you wouldn't be bitching if terrorists were launching rockets into your neighborhood, killing your family and neighbors. You'd want the government to stop them. Stupid people enrage me. How is Israel supposed to combat people that fire rockets from the roof tops of schools and hospitals? Stop bitching about Israel.

This picture accurately depicts my mood now that I just read through the stupidity in this thread.

[ef9hatchman]

Dismal, take your own conclusions.


http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=3b3_1230864719

HOLY SHIT

1. This belongs in the Politics and Religion section.
2. This video is NOT Israel. Read the goddamn description you retard. That is video footage of a Hamas parade in which Hamas weapons accidentally went off and blew up in a crowd of people. This has NOTHING to do with Israel. Stop being a fucking Nazi Jew hater.
3. Israel has the fucking right to defend itself and I fully support their actions. I bet you wouldn't be bitching if terrorists were launching rockets into your neighborhood, killing your family and neighbors. You'd want the government to stop them. Stupid people enrage me. How is Israel supposed to combat people that fire rockets from the roof tops of schools and hospitals? Stop bitching about Israel.

Why fight...People have been fighting before if you believe in christ well Before christ. It get tiring. People fight over look,religion,etc... This thread is somewhat worthless because if your an adult and understand the reality of a HUMAN life then you would see that fighting to KILL others is just wrong,why make the mistake of others be the MORAL person Yaaaameeen....Kaiti Israel does have the right to protect themselves, But the its the United Nations job to protect countries that cannot protect themselves...Its a International committee basically who tries to come to reasonable outcomes to horrific crimes such the hamas have made.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations

[EyeCumInPiece]

Dismal, take your own conclusions.


http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=3b3_1230864719

HOLY SHIT

1. This belongs in the Politics and Religion section.
2. This video is NOT Israel. Read the goddamn description you retard. That is video footage of a Hamas parade in which Hamas weapons accidentally went off and blew up in a crowd of people. This has NOTHING to do with Israel. Stop being a fucking Nazi Jew hater.
3. Israel has the fucking right to defend itself and I fully support their actions. I bet you wouldn't be bitching if terrorists were launching rockets into your neighborhood, killing your family and neighbors. You'd want the government to stop them. Stupid people enrage me. How is Israel supposed to combat people that fire rockets from the roof tops of schools and hospitals? Stop bitching about Israel.

Praetor is from Brazil. I guess if Bolivian terrorists started shooting rockets at Rio de Janeiro, Brazil would have to sit around and do nothing, hoping the problem will just go away because they dont wanna hurt any Bolivian civilians. Or perhaps we shouldve made a pact with the nazis, sparing the lives of all the civilians we bombed the shit out of in Dresden, Berlin, ect.

The logic that some of you guys/gals possess is beyond me.

[fred41]

Let's get one thing straight: there are no "innocent Palestinian civilians". Each Palestinian man, woman and child is a suicide terrorist waiting to to blow up on a bus/in a crowded market/in a busy street full of people shopping and relaxing in cafés. Palestinian parents are proud to dress their little toddlers up with military uniforms and suicide belts.

I've seen Americans dress their kids up in Ku Klux Klan outfits. Does that mean all Americans think the same way?

So much hate in this post. It's really pathetic although I was taken in by the original post and didn't realize where that was an old video and not from the current situation, so I'm irritated at that - although my original points stand. Niccolo your hate doesn't isn't even worthy of a response. In fact the only appropriate post on here ...


This is really a dumb topic that belongs in the Politics and Religion forum. Argue all you want, but nobody is suddenly going to have an epiphany and find enlightenment. This is not what a transsexual porn forum is about.

... apart from showing me how many hateful, un-insightful people there are on this board. I'm realistic, I know innocent people are going to get hurt in any war, but one side committing atrocities doesn't justify another - or the rest of the world condoning it.

You would have been perfectly alright in just leaving with the quote that this doesn't really belong in this forum..but then you had to add some really unfair comments. I re-read all of Niccolo's quotes..and I couldn't find anything hateful..just sound ,logical questions, as you would have in any reasonable debate. It's immature to label something - choose any of these: uncompassionate, stupid, hateful..whatever..and then dismiss it with the swipe of a hand..and declare that it isn't worthy of a comment. That's called a cop-out!!

Also ..most of the world has never condoned anything Israel ever did. Every year the U.N. council condemns Israel for human rights violations...while human garbage like Robert Mugabe gets to starve his country to death relatively unscathed.

[GroobySteven]

Dismal, take your own conclusions.


http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=3b3_1230864719

HOLY SHIT

1. This belongs in the Politics and Religion section.
2. This video is NOT Israel. Read the goddamn description you retard. That is video footage of a Hamas parade in which Hamas weapons accidentally went off and blew up in a crowd of people. This has NOTHING to do with Israel. Stop being a fucking Nazi Jew hater.
3. Israel has the fucking right to defend itself and I fully support their actions. I bet you wouldn't be bitching if terrorists were launching rockets into your neighborhood, killing your family and neighbors. You'd want the government to stop them. Stupid people enrage me. How is Israel supposed to combat people that fire rockets from the roof tops of schools and hospitals? Stop bitching about Israel.

Praetor is from Brazil. I guess if Bolivian terrorists started shooting rockets at Rio de Janeiro, Brazil would have to sit around and do nothing, hoping the problem will just go away because they dont wanna hurt any Bolivian civilians. Or perhaps we shouldve made a pact with the nazis, sparing the lives of all the civilians we bombed the shit out of in Dresden, Berlin, ect.

The logic that some of you guys/gals possess is beyond me.

Yet who did the American public side with when the IRA was launching attacks on the mainland UK?
Hypocrisy.

The caveat is I happened to agree somewhat with some of what the IRA wanted, just not the means by which they were doing it.

[El Nino]

...

[kittyKaiti]

Yet who did the American public side with when the IRA was launching attacks on the mainland UK?
Hypocrisy.

The caveat is I happened to agree somewhat with some of what the IRA wanted, just not the means by which they were doing it.

All I can say is that only stupid people support terrorists of any kind, no matter what they stand for. Only a fucking moron would support a terrorist group, Hamas for example, as we have seen all across Europe and the Middle East (figures, its all Muslim infected land). All these protesters make me so angry. Why are you supporting terrorists? How could you? Had Hamas not fired rockets, this situation would not have occurred. Idiots are everywhere lately.



Why fight...People have been fighting before if you believe in christ well Before christ. It get tiring. People fight over look,religion,etc... This thread is somewhat worthless because if your an adult and understand the reality of a HUMAN life then you would see that fighting to KILL others is just wrong,why make the mistake of others be the MORAL person Yaaaameeen....Kaiti Israel does have the right to protect themselves, But the its the United Nations job to protect countries that cannot protect themselves...Its a International committee basically who tries to come to reasonable outcomes to horrific crimes such the hamas have made.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations

I know what the United Nations is and I don't know what you're referring to because Israel is defending itself from a culture of terrorism and genocide. Gaza is not a country, it is a chunk of land controlled by a terrorist regime. Israel has the full right to do what is necessary to stop these terrorist attacks (that happen non-stop from multiple organizations and countries). Hamas derseves death and anyone who supports them should die too.

[kittyKaiti]

Israel has been practicing this for 60 years. Zionists have uprooted the Palestenians first, confiscated their land, and are killing the rest who refuse to leave their homeland. Only a couple of months ago, 200 Indian jews were welcomed into Israel as citizens whereas more than 5 millions Palestenians are refugees across the world. Israel is sucking the West and the USA to the last drop to fulfill its evil project. Zionist Israel is a racist, criminal and colonial entity.

The Israeli Invasion of Gaza is an act of genocide. Can you say "Ethnic Cleansing"?

www.whatreallyhappened.com

Oh shut the fuck up you Nazi. Don't be sucked into the Neo Nazi propaganda. Learn some history before you spout hatred.

[EyeCumInPiece]

Israel has been practicing this for 60 years. Zionists have uprooted the Palestenians first, confiscated their land, and are killing the rest who refuse to leave their homeland. Only a couple of months ago, 200 Indian jews were welcomed into Israel as citizens whereas more than 5 millions Palestenians are refugees across the world. Israel is sucking the West and the USA to the last drop to fulfill its evil project. Zionist Israel is a racist, criminal and colonial entity.

The Israeli Invasion of Gaza is an act of genocide. Can you say "Ethnic Cleansing"?

www.whatreallyhappened.com

Actually the West is responsible for creating this state, but are now powerless to stop it. Israel is not going anywhere, whether any of us like it or not. They are the bully of the region and any attempt to antagonize them (like shooting rockets at their civilians) will be met with a strong response. And Rightfully so. ElNino there are refugees all over the world. People displaced and broken from wars over religion, land, greed, ect. If you think the Palestinians are innocent in all this, you are out of your mind. I feel sorry for any innocent person displaced by war,its an unfortunate consquence of battle. But this kinda shit was happening thousands of years b4 any of us were born. And it will continue when we are all gone. Some of you assholes on here sound as racist as this so-called country that you R against. I honestly believe that some of you on here would be overjoyed if Ahmedijad got his wish and wiped Israel, and all its men, women, and children, off the map. And even after that, mark my words the Jews are there to stay, plain and simple. Palestinians either better get use 2 it or pick up there guns and continue to fight. But if they are looking for sympathy in this cold world, theyll get none.

[El Nino]

Kaiti, stop being ingnorant. You are confusing two seperate things, that is Zionism and being an Israeli. One can be against the political movement of zionism and not be racist. The map tells the true story. http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/mapstellstory.html?q=mapstellstory.html

Get educated dummy

[GroobySteven]

Hamas for example, as we have seen all across Europe and the Middle East (figures, its all Muslim infected land).

Didn't take you long to raise your racism did it? So it's nothing to do with terrorism ... just Muslims that you hate?

[El Nino]

Israel has been practicing this for 60 years. Zionists have uprooted the Palestenians first, confiscated their land, and are killing the rest who refuse to leave their homeland. Only a couple of months ago, 200 Indian jews were welcomed into Israel as citizens whereas more than 5 millions Palestenians are refugees across the world. Israel is sucking the West and the USA to the last drop to fulfill its evil project. Zionist Israel is a racist, criminal and colonial entity.

The Israeli Invasion of Gaza is an act of genocide. Can you say "Ethnic Cleansing"?

www.whatreallyhappened.com

Oh shut the fuck up you Nazi. Don't be sucked into the Neo Nazi propaganda. Learn some history before you spout hatred.

haha, you are TOO MUCH... You are in the dark about the whole situation. I am not a "Nazi", Nor do I support terrorists. From an objective point of view, it is clear that this is a genocide. Again... http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/mapstellstory.html?q=mapstellstory.html

[El Nino]

Here are pictures that the mainstream media probably won't beshowing you... http://www.flickr.com/photos/effarania/

[kittyKaiti]

Kaiti, stop being ingnorant. You are confusing two seperate things, that is Zionism and being an Israeli. One can be against the political movement of zionism and not be racist. The map tells the true story. http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/mapstellstory.html?q=mapstellstory.html

Get educated dummy

Learn history you moron. Stop believing that Nazi propaganda. Israel gained more land through wars. The Arabs constantly attacked Israel. They responded by invading the terrorist territory of "Palestine". Israel gained all that land through war conquests, which is completely legal (you don't have to give the land back). If the Palestinians wanted to be left alone, they shouldn't have started bombing Jews. Not to mention that there is no such thing as a Palestinian. The land was always Jewish territory but was conquered and re-conquered repeatedly. Jerusalem was built by Jews and is a Jewish city. Most Palestinians came from Jordan. The land of Israel was Jewish territory long before there was a Jordan.

[kittyKaiti]

Hamas for example, as we have seen all across Europe and the Middle East (figures, its all Muslim infected land).

Didn't take you long to raise your racism did it? So it's nothing to do with terrorism ... just Muslims that you hate?


Islam is not a religion. It was founded by Muhammed, a known pedophile and terrorist. He lead wars against neighboring countries to force Islam upon everyone. Everyone that refused was slaughtered. Islam is a cult of violence and genocide. In my book, it isn't racist. You can't be racist against terrorism.

[El Nino]

...

[AllanahStarrNYC]

Let us all remember that PEACE can be achieved, and is really the only answer.



Anwar Sadat, Jimmy Carter, and Menachem Begin
Israel-Egypt Peace Agreement of 1979

[GroobySteven]

Hamas for example, as we have seen all across Europe and the Middle East (figures, its all Muslim infected land).

Didn't take you long to raise your racism did it? So it's nothing to do with terrorism ... just Muslims that you hate?


Islam is not a religion. It was founded by Muhammed, a known pedophile and terrorist. He lead wars against neighboring countries to force Islam upon everyone. Everyone that refused was slaughtered. Islam is a cult of violence and genocide. In my book, it isn't racist. You can't be racist against terrorism.
Bwah Bwah Bwah....
So what religion are you? Please tell - and what religions do you consider "a religion".

[kittyKaiti]

Telling the History of the Twenty-First Century as it Really Is
http://lataan.blogspot.com/2009/01/mainstream-press-beginning-to-reveal.html

LOL, you really believe this crap? Some random Jew hater's blog and some retard newspaper writer?

[ef9hatchman]

Hamas for example, as we have seen all across Europe and the Middle East (figures, its all Muslim infected land).

Didn't take you long to raise your racism did it? So it's nothing to do with terrorism ... just Muslims that you hate?


Islam is not a religion. It was founded by Muhammed, a known pedophile and terrorist. He lead wars against neighboring countries to force Islam upon everyone. Everyone that refused was slaughtered. Islam is a cult of violence and genocide. In my book, it isn't racist. You can't be racist against terrorism.
Bwah Bwah Bwah....

And for calling people nazis what justification do you have?. you little lady need to So what religion are you? Please tell - and what religions do you consider "a religion".

Shes a BIGOT. wow horrible explaination of the Islam religion.
Islam is A PEACEFUL religion FYI,fuckfaces like radicalist gives islam a bad name.
get ya facts before being a racist hypocrite=BIGOT.
:)

And for calling people nazis what justification do you have?. you little lady need to read about religions before showing your lowly educated mind :D

My mother and myself are Christian she grew up in the middle east her best friend who happened to be her neighbor OMFG was MUSLIM. People are good in their hearts who cares what religion they believe in. As long as they are MORAL people. kaiti your comment about racist againt terrorists, I understand your point but we do not have the right to kill someone if we/government does so we make ourselves as low as they are.

[El Nino]

The truth of the situation is reverborating throughout the blogosphere despite the the (heavily biased) mainstream media's attempts to squander any alternative opinion and release of information.

[kittyKaiti]

Hamas for example, as we have seen all across Europe and the Middle East (figures, its all Muslim infected land).

Didn't take you long to raise your racism did it? So it's nothing to do with terrorism ... just Muslims that you hate?


Islam is not a religion. It was founded by Muhammed, a known pedophile and terrorist. He lead wars against neighboring countries to force Islam upon everyone. Everyone that refused was slaughtered. Islam is a cult of violence and genocide. In my book, it isn't racist. You can't be racist against terrorism.
Bwah Bwah Bwah....
So what religion are you? Please tell - and what religions do you consider "a religion".

I am atheist because I am intelligent enough to understand that all religion is a lie. There is no God and if there was, he/she wouldn't be a dick as depicted in the bible. Religion is mass conspiracy against the people to gain control over the masses. It was created by ancient civilizations to explain all the weird shit we couldn't understand or explain. Religion evolved into what it is today and has caused nothing but destruction and war. Islam is just the worst of it, invented by a homicidal, pedophilic, terrorist. I could name many other "religions" that are just money scams and evil organizations, like the Catholic Church (who supported the Nazis in WWII) and Scientology (probably the largest money scam in U.S. history).

[FruitTree]

Over here in the UK I think the general consensus has been that Israel are over stepping the mark but the BBC has been a bit biased, always mentioning terrorism when talking about the Palestinians

As Allanah says peace is the only good outcome and even though I don't think policy will change it will be better having diplomatic Obama working with it than war mongering Bush

[GroobySteven]

Hamas for example, as we have seen all across Europe and the Middle East (figures, its all Muslim infected land).

Didn't take you long to raise your racism did it? So it's nothing to do with terrorism ... just Muslims that you hate?


Islam is not a religion. It was founded by Muhammed, a known pedophile and terrorist. He lead wars against neighboring countries to force Islam upon everyone. Everyone that refused was slaughtered. Islam is a cult of violence and genocide. In my book, it isn't racist. You can't be racist against terrorism.
Bwah Bwah Bwah....
So what religion are you? Please tell - and what religions do you consider "a religion".

I am atheist because I am intelligent enough to understand that all religion is a lie. There is no God and if there was, he/she wouldn't be a dick as depicted in the bible. Religion is mass conspiracy against the people to gain control over the masses. It was created by ancient civilizations to explain all the weird shit we couldn't understand or explain. Religion evolved into what it is today and has caused nothing but destruction and war. Islam is just the worst of it, invented by a homicidal, pedophilic, terrorist. I could name many other "religions" that are just money scams and evil organizations, like the Catholic Church (who supported the Nazis in WWII) and Scientology (probably the largest money scam in U.S. history).

Ok, fair enough answer. You either see the whole thing as shit - or you accept all reglions.
However, stating that the area was "infected" by Muslims (paraphrased) is akin to stating that Israel is "infected" by Jews or Judaism, is it not? Or have you chosen to side with one conspiracy over another?

[ef9hatchman]

Over here in the UK I think the general consensus has been that Israel are over stepping the mark but the BBC has been a bit biased, always mentioning terrorism when talking about the Palestinians

As Allanah says peace is the only good outcome and even though I don't think policy will change it will be better having diplomatic Obama working with it than war mongering Bush
uhm ouch.....
Bush isnt war mongering in my mind hes just arrogant.He disobeyed UN orders but now a country is free of a dictator. Although we did more harm then needed.
But I do credit bush since the 9-11 attack not one attack has happened on US soil. Obama has a good plan BUT iI doubt it will go in affect his first term if allowed two terms.

[FruitTree]

I meant his rather gung-ho attitude

[El Nino]

...

[tsmandy]

I don't really have the energy to debate this subject, but I will say that I think the situation is utterly deplorable, and that Israel should adhere to international law.

I realize that the news coverage in the states is blatantly pro-Israel (and by pro Israel I do not mean to imply that all Israeli's support the policies of the hawkish Israeli government) Ignoring the siege of Gaza and other grievous human rights violations would most certainly allow one to think that the invasion of Gaza is a response to rocket attacks, however the reality of the situation is infinitely more complicated, and infinitely more despicable than that self-serving narrative depicts. The numerous atrocities committed by both sides have been well documented by human rights organizations within Israel such as B'tselem (
http://www.btselem.org/English/index.asp) and by the United Nations. (of course as an IDF agent correctly pointed out to an American Jewish friend of mine who was working as a human rights observer during the destruction of Jenin, the actions of the US in Iraq tend to make Israel's actions pale in comparison)

Referring to all Palestinians as terrorist scum has eerie historical precedents (the North American genocide of indigenous peoples and the Nazi regime to name a few), and should cause anyone to seriously think about the decency of those who would say such things.

[El Nino]

True dat homie

[russtafa]

hey whats the big deal they are only muslims

[kittyKaiti]

Hamas for example, as we have seen all across Europe and the Middle East (figures, its all Muslim infected land).

Didn't take you long to raise your racism did it? So it's nothing to do with terrorism ... just Muslims that you hate?


Islam is not a religion. It was founded by Muhammed, a known pedophile and terrorist. He lead wars against neighboring countries to force Islam upon everyone. Everyone that refused was slaughtered. Islam is a cult of violence and genocide. In my book, it isn't racist. You can't be racist against terrorism.
Bwah Bwah Bwah....
So what religion are you? Please tell - and what religions do you consider "a religion".

I am atheist because I am intelligent enough to understand that all religion is a lie. There is no God and if there was, he/she wouldn't be a dick as depicted in the bible. Religion is mass conspiracy against the people to gain control over the masses. It was created by ancient civilizations to explain all the weird shit we couldn't understand or explain. Religion evolved into what it is today and has caused nothing but destruction and war. Islam is just the worst of it, invented by a homicidal, pedophilic, terrorist. I could name many other "religions" that are just money scams and evil organizations, like the Catholic Church (who supported the Nazis in WWII) and Scientology (probably the largest money scam in U.S. history).

Ok, fair enough answer. You either see the whole thing as shit - or you accept all reglions.
However, stating that the area was "infected" by Muslims (paraphrased) is akin to stating that Israel is "infected" by Jews or Judaism, is it not? Or have you chosen to side with one conspiracy over another?

I don't mind if someone wants to believe in God. That is your choice, you're completely wrong, but it's your choice. But when you take your beliefs and force them on people, I hate you for it. I keep saying this, Islam was founded on genocide and terrorism. There is nothing peaceful about it. The Qur'an repeatedly states to kill those that don't follow Islam. Spread it to everyone and convert or die. Judaism on the other hand was founded peacefully and does not promote mass murder. The Jews are a peaceful people and have always been the target of eradication. They don't force their views on anyone. Muslims though, force their views on everyone. They still do it today.

To explain my use of the term "infect", Islam is like no other religion.

The sole purpose of Islam is to infect and destroy. That's how it's been since it's beginning. They spread from place to place and force Islam on everyone. Europe has a massive Muslim population now. They have all been moving over there, flooding the UK, France, pretty much all of western and southern Europe. They riot (France a few years ago) and force the governments of said nations, such as the UK, to enact Sharia Law (Muslim Law). They force the construction of mosques and neighborhoods and just keep rioting, protesting and demanding more. Look at how many of them have entered Europe lately. It's an invasion. In about 15 years, Europe will be under Islamic control. Russia is flooded with them. We cannot allow Islam to take over the free world. It is a terrorist cult and it's spreading. I view Islam as a virus or cancer. Now they're in Canada. They are subverting our countries into becoming Islamic states. This is why I hate them. I refuse to live under Sharia Law. I hate terrorists and Islam is terrorism. It has to stop.

[ef9hatchman]

Hamas for example, as we have seen all across Europe and the Middle East (figures, its all Muslim infected land).

Didn't take you long to raise your racism did it? So it's nothing to do with terrorism ... just Muslims that you hate?


Islam is not a religion. It was founded by Muhammed, a known pedophile and terrorist. He lead wars against neighboring countries to force Islam upon everyone. Everyone that refused was slaughtered. Islam is a cult of violence and genocide. In my book, it isn't racist. You can't be racist against terrorism.
Bwah Bwah Bwah....
So what religion are you? Please tell - and what religions do you consider "a religion".

I am atheist because I am intelligent enough to understand that all religion is a lie. There is no God and if there was, he/she wouldn't be a dick as depicted in the bible. Religion is mass conspiracy against the people to gain control over the masses. It was created by ancient civilizations to explain all the weird shit we couldn't understand or explain. Religion evolved into what it is today and has caused nothing but destruction and war. Islam is just the worst of it, invented by a homicidal, pedophilic, terrorist. I could name many other "religions" that are just money scams and evil organizations, like the Catholic Church (who supported the Nazis in WWII) and Scientology (probably the largest money scam in U.S. history).

Ok, fair enough answer. You either see the whole thing as shit - or you accept all reglions.
However, stating that the area was "infected" by Muslims (paraphrased) is akin to stating that Israel is "infected" by Jews or Judaism, is it not? Or have you chosen to side with one conspiracy over another?

I don't mind if someone wants to believe in God. That is your choice, you're completely wrong, but it's your choice. But when you take your beliefs and force them on people, I hate you for it. I keep saying this, Islam was founded on genocide and terrorism. There is nothing peaceful about it. The Qur'an repeatedly states to kill those that don't follow Islam. Spread it to everyone and convert or die. Judaism on the other hand was founded peacefully and does not promote mass murder. The Jews are a peaceful people and have always been the target of eradication. They don't force their views on anyone. Muslims though, force their views on everyone. They still do it today.

The sole purpose of Islam is to infect and destroy. They spread from place to place and force Islam on everyone. Europe has a massive Muslim population now. They have all been moving over there, flooding the UK, France, pretty much all of western and southern Europe. They riot (France a few years ago) and force the governments of said nations, such as the UK, to enact Sharia Law (Muslim Law). They force the construction of mosques and neighborhoods and just keep rioting, protesting and demanding more. Look at how many of them have entered Europe lately. It's an invasion. In about 15 years, Europe will be under Islamic control. Russia is flooded with them. We cannot allow Islam to take over the free world. It is a terrorist cult and it's spreading. I view Islam as a virus or cancer. Now they're in Canada. They are subverting our countries into becoming Islamic states. This is why I hate them. I refuse to live under Sharia Law. I hate terrorists and Islam is terrorism. It has to stop.

I could not find a nice way to say this so. You need to go back to school Take a religion class for all I care. You have no Moral beliefs your arguements sound like you think that (you[kaiti] are right and we the people who justify our arguements are wrong.)
your atheist thats fine,you are given that right as a human being(American) to choose your religion. Some poeple DO NOT let me repeat myself DO NOT have the right to choose their religion many ARAB countries do not have our rights. So have you ever taken that into consideration? On a personal note your too involved on tellng people what is right and wrong based on your beliefs.

Your saying there isnt a god,Islam is wrong follow me...basically, I just want to point out what you hate is what your doing.

[muhmuh]

how about we remind ourselfs how terrorism started in that region?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing

[ef9hatchman]

how about we remind ourselfs how terrorism started in that region?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombingdisagree on thats when it started. there have been terrorist for thousands of years.

From Kaitis comments...Im guessing she thinks anyone who thinks Islam is a GOOD religion is a terrorist...I think the religion is Great for those who actually go by the book and not these radicalist fuckfaces. O shit am I a terrorist?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam

[GroobySteven]

Hamas for example, as we have seen all across Europe and the Middle East (figures, its all Muslim infected land).

Didn't take you long to raise your racism did it? So it's nothing to do with terrorism ... just Muslims that you hate?


Islam is not a religion. It was founded by Muhammed, a known pedophile and terrorist. He lead wars against neighboring countries to force Islam upon everyone. Everyone that refused was slaughtered. Islam is a cult of violence and genocide. In my book, it isn't racist. You can't be racist against terrorism.
Bwah Bwah Bwah....
So what religion are you? Please tell - and what religions do you consider "a religion".

I am atheist because I am intelligent enough to understand that all religion is a lie. There is no God and if there was, he/she wouldn't be a dick as depicted in the bible. Religion is mass conspiracy against the people to gain control over the masses. It was created by ancient civilizations to explain all the weird shit we couldn't understand or explain. Religion evolved into what it is today and has caused nothing but destruction and war. Islam is just the worst of it, invented by a homicidal, pedophilic, terrorist. I could name many other "religions" that are just money scams and evil organizations, like the Catholic Church (who supported the Nazis in WWII) and Scientology (probably the largest money scam in U.S. history).

Ok, fair enough answer. You either see the whole thing as shit - or you accept all reglions.
However, stating that the area was "infected" by Muslims (paraphrased) is akin to stating that Israel is "infected" by Jews or Judaism, is it not? Or have you chosen to side with one conspiracy over another?

I don't mind if someone wants to believe in God. That is your choice, you're completely wrong, but it's your choice. But when you take your beliefs and force them on people, I hate you for it. I keep saying this, Islam was founded on genocide and terrorism. There is nothing peaceful about it. The Qur'an repeatedly states to kill those that don't follow Islam. Spread it to everyone and convert or die. Judaism on the other hand was founded peacefully and does not promote mass murder. The Jews are a peaceful people and have always been the target of eradication. They don't force their views on anyone. Muslims though, force their views on everyone. They still do it today.

Islam is like no other religion.

The sole purpose of Islam is to infect and destroy. That's how it's been since it's beginning. They spread from place to place and force Islam on everyone. Europe has a massive Muslim population now. They have all been moving over there, flooding the UK, France, pretty much all of western and southern Europe. They riot (France a few years ago) and force the governments of said nations, such as the UK, to enact Sharia Law (Muslim Law). They force the construction of mosques and neighborhoods and just keep rioting, protesting and demanding more. Look at how many of them have entered Europe lately. It's an invasion. In about 15 years, Europe will be under Islamic control. Russia is flooded with them. We cannot allow Islam to take over the free world. It is a terrorist cult and it's spreading. I view Islam as a virus or cancer. Now they're in Canada. They are subverting our countries into becoming Islamic states. This is why I hate them. I refuse to live under Sharia Law. I hate terrorists and Islam is terrorism. It has to stop.

Your so so wrong in so many places it's unbelievable.
You need to stop reading wherever you are getting this nonsense and read some real papers or books.
It's just too much to respond to ...
If Islam is a virus - then Christianity is another one. Judaism while it doesn't spread like the other religions was hardly founded on peace and love - read the Old Testement. Islam does not state to kill those who don't believe in their religion. Their are zealots in all regions who have picked up and twisted the religion to their own means - but most Muslims's do not want Sharia law either. Have you ever visited a Muslim country? Met and seriously talked with a Muslim person?

I'm no fan of religion but your hatred, ignorance and blind ire is based on rubbish and in my eyes, your no different from those bigots and zealots in Hamas or other terrorist organisations as you condone the violence.

[kittyKaiti]

I could not find a nice way to say this so. You need to go back to school Take a religion class for all I care. You have no Moral beliefs your arguements sound like you think that (you[kaiti] are right and we the people who justify our arguements are wrong.)
your atheist thats fine,you are given that right as a human being(American) to choose your religion. Some poeple DO NOT let me repeat myself DO NOT have the right to choose their religion many ARAB countries do not have our rights. So have you ever taken that into consideration? On a personal note your too involved on tellng people what is right and wrong based on your beliefs.

Your saying there isnt a god,Islam is wrong follow me...basically, I just want to point out what you hate is what your doing.

Of course they don't have rights. They follow Islam.

I'm committing acts of terrorism and genocide? I'm holding a gun to your head telling you to believe or die? No.

[ef9hatchman]

I could not find a nice way to say this so. You need to go back to school Take a religion class for all I care. You have no Moral beliefs your arguements sound like you think that (you[kaiti] are right and we the people who justify our arguements are wrong.)
your atheist thats fine,you are given that right as a human being(American) to choose your religion. Some poeple DO NOT let me repeat myself DO NOT have the right to choose their religion many ARAB countries do not have our rights. So have you ever taken that into consideration? On a personal note your too involved on tellng people what is right and wrong based on your beliefs.

Your saying there isnt a god,Islam is wrong follow me...basically, I just want to point out what you hate is what your doing.

Of course they don't have rights. They follow Islam.

I'm committing acts of terrorism and genocide? I'm holding a gun to your head telling you to believe or die? No.

Admins im sorry she needs this......
What a FUCKING idiot. :lol:
your bigotry lowered my IQ.
Your racist you need to listen to what were telling you.....

If god chooses me to die then I die. Everything happens for a reason Kaiti im christian if that offends you then leave I have the god given right to talk about my religion and my beliefs openly. you on the other hand believe in nothing, but Racism.....

[phobun]

You are all fools.



.



.

[El Nino]

Some people WILL NOT listen, even inthe face of hard evidence

[phobun]

Some people WILL NOT listen, even inthe face of hard evidence



.

[ef9hatchman]

Some people WILL NOT listen, even inthe face of hard evidenceIt called being a hardcore arrogant person....Some people need help to admit their arrogance.

[kittyKaiti]

I'm done arguing. I'm sure there are good Muslims in the world but I will never respect Islam. It was founded on terrorism and genocide and will always be evil in my eyes.

[ef9hatchman]

I'm done arguing. I'm sure there are good Muslims in the world but I will never respect Islam. It was founded on terrorism and genocide and will always be evil in my eyes. :banghead :trolls

[phobun]

Some people WILL NOT listen, even inthe face of hard evidenceIt called being a hardcore arrogant person....Some people need help to admit their arrogance.

[ef9hatchman]

Some people WILL NOT listen, even inthe face of hard evidenceIt called being a hardcore arrogant person....Some people need help to admit their arrogance.Egangster Phobun dont add unintelligent things makes yourself look like a douchebag.

[phobun]

Some people WILL NOT listen, even inthe face of hard evidenceIt called being a hardcore arrogant person....Some people need help to admit their arrogance.
I'm sure you'll get results.

[El Nino]

Last from me...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXdle7Ltw0s&feature=channel_page

[the_corner]

Hamas for example, as we have seen all across Europe and the Middle East (figures, its all Muslim infected land).

Didn't take you long to raise your racism did it? So it's nothing to do with terrorism ... just Muslims that you hate?


Islam is not a religion. It was founded by Muhammed, a known pedophile and terrorist. He lead wars against neighboring countries to force Islam upon everyone. Everyone that refused was slaughtered. Islam is a cult of violence and genocide. In my book, it isn't racist. You can't be racist against terrorism.
Bwah Bwah Bwah....
So what religion are you? Please tell - and what religions do you consider "a religion".

I am atheist because I am intelligent enough to understand that all religion is a lie. There is no God and if there was, he/she wouldn't be a dick as depicted in the bible. Religion is mass conspiracy against the people to gain control over the masses. It was created by ancient civilizations to explain all the weird shit we couldn't understand or explain. Religion evolved into what it is today and has caused nothing but destruction and war. Islam is just the worst of it, invented by a homicidal, pedophilic, terrorist. I could name many other "religions" that are just money scams and evil organizations, like the Catholic Church (who supported the Nazis in WWII) and Scientology (probably the largest money scam in U.S. history).

Ehmm, sorry to disapoint you but, nop, you are not intelligent enough to understand religion... apparently you are not well informed either about the things that you say.

You are the reason the world hates the USA.... people like you... that make statements like that, without taking a minute to realize that what you say is a bunch of bullcrap.... if you don't know what you are talking about, please do all of us a favor and SHUT UP... then get informed (as in real information), read, get some descent education... and then, maybe just maybe you can open your mouth and say something worth.

Everyone is entitled their own opinion... and you are entitled yours too, as long as you know what the hell you're saying... and as long as you don't use that opinion as an excuse to insult other people.

In the end, the only one looking like an ignorant is you.

[tsmandy]

I'm done arguing. I'm sure there are good Muslims in the world but I will never respect Islam. It was founded on terrorism and genocide and will always be evil in my eyes.

One could say the same thing about the United States for that matter, being founded on terrorism and genocide. But it would be an utter absurdity to suggest that all Americans are evil.

There are millions of Palestinians, and not all of them are Muslims, and for years there was a strong secular resistance to the Israeli occupation, which incidentally was purposefully destroyed. If one were prone to digging into recent activities on behalf of the state of Israel it would be reasonable to assume that the secular Palestinian resistance was crushed so that Hamas and other Islamist factions would rise to power, and thus provide easy justifications for further land grabs and demolition of Palestinian infrastructure.

[phobun]

In the end, the only one looking like an ignorant is you.
Is this a Bushism?

[fred41]

Question 911

What a surprise.

[El Nino]

Question 911

What a surprise. Norad just happened to stand down for an hour and watch theplane smack into the Pentagon?? What a surprise. You see, its all about rallying the masses for war; always has been

[fred41]

Question 911

What a surprise. Norad just happened to stand down for an hour and watch theplane smack into the Pentagon?? What a surprise. You see, its all about rallying the masses for war; always has been

Of course...you're right. That's the only possible explanation. I don't know why I didn't see that before. Glad you cleared that up. :roll:

[arnie666]

Some of the responses on here disgust me. The Hamas are a bunch of animals using civilians as cover who ALLOW it to occur, then you get angry with Israel for defending itself? It's ridiculous. Try talking to someone who is actually in the IDF (Israeli Defense Forces) and learning about what the Palestinians actually do that is NOT reported in our media, you may have a different view after that.

Try talking to some of the British forces when the IRA was killing women and children (and soldiers) - and funds were being collected for the IRA on the streets of NYC.

Try talking to the German occupying army when the French Resistance were killing and bombing their soldiers.

Try talking to a Vietnam vet when the Vietcong were killing their friends.

I'm not making direct comparisons between these conflicts but my point is, obviously the IDF has a skewered view - and the Palestinians a different one. Yet many innocents are being caught in the middle and the strikes that Israel have taken seem to be taking down more innocents, than legitimate targets.
A little restraint.

Arnie, it's got ZERO to do with being leftist - that's a pathetic and sad comment for people who don't want to see innocent civilians caught in the crossfire of any war. Absolutely pathetic and shows your ignorance.

Don't make me out to be the bad guy son, . I read the post you made three down on the first page . I find it cringeworthy that after your inital polarising comment , you then make that statement above too me.Doesn't show you in a good light at all.

And it is relevant mentioning the left. The left certainly in the UK have the Pallys as some kind of cause celebre which I find 'ignorant' and 'pathetic'. You only have to read some of the other threads in the Politics section on this forum to see the majority of posters are of the left wing persuasion.Those who are of the centre to right wing are shouted down and called stupid and ignorant on a regular basis. I would have thought it would be welcomed to have people of different viewpoints posting there but sadly as is common with those of left or fascist beliefs the people of your ilk just cannot tolerate it mentally.

Speaking of the Politics and religion section why isn't this load of drivvel in there? Don't seem much mention of arses and penis's.

[ILuvGurls]

Israel is doing this now because they won't be able to in less than 3 weeks. Barack will not allow the Middle East to head down this path of destruction.

you are kidding right? they have been killing each other for a lot longer than the USA has even been around. :roll:

[muhmuh]

how about we remind ourselfs how terrorism started in that region?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombingdisagree on thats when it started. there have been terrorist for thousands of years.

iirc it was at the time the deadliest terrorist attack in history and certainly set the tone for the future of that region
either way the point is both sides are terrorists one fighting with modern military equipment funded by us tax dollars and the other side fighting with sticks and stones

[needsum]

Fuck Religion. This shit is all over holy land, God, and who's version is better. Two assholes in a backlot arguing over something stupid and one of them gets killed. Same shit, different back lot.

It made me sick to see those little kids laying there dead or wounded. All for what? Because his god is better that yours? Fuck you all. I'm so fed up with these pre-historic asshole countries continuing to live like this, and whats worse, I'm totally sick of the US taking sides. I don't care if Hamas is in one Town and it makes us feel justified to fight against them. If we want Hamas gone, we can go in there with Intel and ground troops, smart bombs and real targets and do it ourselves. Lets get the fuck out of Iraq already and go do something worthwhile overthere.

Or better yet, bring our boys the fuck home and let those assholes deal with themselves. I'm going to mirror a bit of what Danielle said early in this thread. I feel sick to be a human being when stuff like this comes to light. And being an american, I'm tired of the government sending aid to people and places that have no merit or bearing on how we as americans need to live.

Send aid to africa and other regions where people are starving and cannot help themselves. Go fight warlords who are practicing genocide on a daily basis. Do something real, take back peace for those who desire it, who just want to live and raise their families without fear.

But for those who fight with religion in their hearts and god on their shoulder, I say let them play by themselves. They'll all either kill each other off, or maybe, just maybe, when enough of their babies have died, and the craziest of their zealots have been killed, reason, NOT religion, will take over. One never knows, do one . . .

[Tepres]

that video says from 2005! why is everyone blaming israel.

It's already been pointed out that the original deaths in the opening video, were caused by the stupidity of Hamas. Not Israel. I didn't notice it at first either, because I skimmed through the video real quick. praetor seemed to present it as an Israeli attack. (Probably by mistake) That's what's causing a lot of confusion in this thread.

[chefmike]

Question 911

What a surprise. Norad just happened to stand down for an hour and watch theplane smack into the Pentagon?? What a surprise. You see, its all about rallying the masses for war; always has been

Of course...you're right. That's the only possible explanation. I don't know why I didn't see that before. Glad you cleared that up. :roll:

LMAO at a certain truther and conspiracy wingnut who spews ridiculous paranoid theories and links in each and every thread about current events... :roll:

[ef9hatchman]

how about we remind ourselfs how terrorism started in that region?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombingdisagree on thats when it started. there have been terrorist for thousands of years.

iirc it was at the time the deadliest terrorist attack in history and certainly set the tone for the future of that region
either way the point is both sides are terrorists one fighting with modern military equipment funded by us tax dollars and the other side fighting with sticks and stonesOk now I understand why you posted :lol:

[ef9hatchman]

Fuck Religion. This shit is all over holy land, God, and who's version is better. Two assholes in a backlot arguing over something stupid and one of them gets killed. Same shit, different back lot.

It made me sick to see those little kids laying there dead or wounded. All for what? Because his god is better that yours? Fuck you all. I'm so fed up with these pre-historic asshole countries continuing to live like this, and whats worse, I'm totally sick of the US taking sides. I don't care if Hamas is in one Town and it makes us feel justified to fight against them. If we want Hamas gone, we can go in there with Intel and ground troops, smart bombs and real targets and do it ourselves. Lets get the fuck out of Iraq already and go do something worthwhile overthere.

Or better yet, bring our boys the fuck home and let those assholes deal with themselves. I'm going to mirror a bit of what Danielle said early in this thread. I feel sick to be a human being when stuff like this comes to light. And being an american, I'm tired of the government sending aid to people and places that have no merit or bearing on how we as americans need to live.

Send aid to africa and other regions where people are starving and cannot help themselves. Go fight warlords who are practicing genocide on a daily basis. Do something real, take back peace for those who desire it, who just want to live and raise their families without fear.

But for those who fight with religion in their hearts and god on their shoulder, I say let them play by themselves. They'll all either kill each other off, or maybe, just maybe, when enough of their babies have died, and the craziest of their zealots have been killed, reason, NOT religion, will take over. One never knows, do one . . .
WOW you sir need to read up more you sound alot like Kaiti....They have been fighting over LAND for thousands of years. If you think about it, The british government can be to blame.I only say this because when they took the land from the TURKS in 1917 its when the conflict over LAND started between these indivuals.

[porcazio]

The study [by Israeli doctoral student and clinical psychologist Nufar Yishai-Karin] . . . included interviews with 18 soldiers and three officers who served with her in two armored infantry units. She knew most of them from her military service. She interviewed each of them personally in his home for a few hours and recorded the interviews; she still has the tapes. Her prior acquaintance with the soldiers led them to trust her implicitly, and they opened up fully, readily telling her about crimes they themselves had committed: murder and killing, BREAKING THE BONES OF LITTLE CHILDREN, inflicting humiliation, destroying property, stealing . . . The article describes the brutalization of some of the soldiers . . . Among the brutalized group was the impulsive type of soldier, who used the opportunity to let off steam, sometimes enthusiastically. Testimony: “I went out on my first patrol . . . Others on the patrol were just shooting like crazies . . . I also started shooting like all the others . . . Look, I WON’T TELL YOU IT WASN’T COOL . . . suddenly you are responsible for what you are doing. You take the gun. You shoot. You do what you want.”

(‘Parallel Lives’ , Dalia Karpel, article in Haaretz. http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/909589.html).

[porcazio]

We Jews, we are the destroyers and will remain the destroyers. Nothing you can do will meet our demands and needs. WE WILL FOREVER DESTROY because we want a world of our own.

(Maurice Samuel, Zionist author, ‘You Gentiles’, p. 155).

[porcazio]

There is a huge gap between us Jews and our enemies not just in morality, sanctity of life, and conscience . . . they do not belong to our continent, to our world, but actually belong to a different galaxy.

(Moshe Katsav, former Israeli President, Jerusalem Post, May 10, 2001).

[porcazio]

One million Arabs are NOT WORTH A JEWISH FINGERNAIL.

(Rabbi Yaacov Perrin, quoted in New York Times, February 28, 1994).

[porcazio]

Some junior commanders encouraged the brutality and even endorsed it. “After two months in Rafah a new commanding officer arrived … So we do a first patrol with him. It’s 6 A.M., Rafah is under curfew, there isn’t so much as a dog in the streets. Only a little boy of four playing in the sand. He is building a castle in his yard. He [the officer] suddenly starts running and we all run with him . . . He grabbed the boy. I am a degenerate if I am not telling you the truth: HE BROKE HIS HAND AT THE WRIST . . . BROKE HIS LEG . . . AND STARTED TO STOMP ON HIS STOMACH . . . We are all there, jaws dropping, looking at him in shock . . . The next day I go out with him on another patrol, and the soldiers are ALREADY STARTING TO DO THE SAME THING.”

(Dalia Karpel, op.cit.).

[porcazio]

The Palestinians are BEASTS WALKING ON TWO LEGS.

(Israeli President Menahim Begin, speech quoted in the New Statesman, 25 June 1982).

[ef9hatchman]

Learn to put it in one post dude....

[porcazio]

The Jews ordered us to line up against the wall started shooting. All were killed: my father, mother, grandfather, grandmother, uncles, aunts and some of their children. Halim Eid saw a man shoot a bullet into the neck of my [pregnant] sister. THEN HE CUT HER STOMACH OPEN WITH A BUTCHER’S KNIFE.

(Fahimi Zidan, a Palestinian child survivor of the infamous Deir Yassin massacre of 1948).

[porcazio]

There is no doubt that many SEXUAL ATROCITIES were committed by the attacking Jews. Many young school girls were raped and later slaughtered. Many infants were also butchered and killed. I also saw one old woman who had been severely beaten about the head with rifle butts.

(Richard Catling, British army officer, recalling the Deir Yassin massacre).

[porcazio]

“We have to do everything to MAKE THE PALESTINIANS SO MISERABLE that they will leave.”

(Rafael Eitan, Israeli general and politician, 1980).

[ef9hatchman]

PORCAZIO wtf dude do you not know how to put in one POST...fucking waste of time to read all your random quotes.

[porcazio]

Whoever [i.e. Arab at checkpoint] does not act nicely gets beaten. We have clubs for that. Sometimes I might just not like his face. And then he gets one too. JUST A WAY OF PASSING THE TIME.

(Israeli policewoman, quoted in Haaretz, 16 January 2004).

[porcazio]

We have to KILL ALL THE PALESTINIANS unless they are resigned to live here as SLAVES.

(Chairman Heilbrun of the Committee to re-elect Shlomo Lahat, mayor of Tel-Aviv, 1983).

[porcazio]

I ran toward them and PUNCHED THE ARAB RIGHT IN THE FACE, never before did I do such a thing, he collapsed on the road. I dragged him over behind the jeep, pushed him in. We sat in the back seat. Our Arab lay down there and just wept quietly to himself. He bled and made a puddle of blood and saliva, which angered and disgusted me, so I grabbed him by the hair and twisted his head to the side. He cried out loud. He didn’t stop crying and someone said his hands hurt from the handcuffs. One of the soldiers approached him and punched him in the stomach. THE ARAB SUFFERED FROM PAIN AND GRUNTED, WE ALL GIGGLED, IT WAS FUNNY. I KICKED HIM REAL HARD on the bottom and he whirled inside, just as I planned. They shouted that I am crazy and laughed – AND I FELT GREAT.

(Liran Ron-Forer, December 2003. http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/palestinians.html?q=palestinians.html)

[porcazio]

We declare openly that the Arabs have no right to settle on even one centimeter of Eretz Israel. Force is all they understand. We shall use the ultimate force until the Palestinians come crawling to us on all fours . . . When we have settled the land, all the Arabs will be able to do about it will be to SCURRY AROUND LIKE DRUGGED COCKROACHES IN A BOTTLE.

(Rafael Eitan, Chief of Staff of IDF, New York Times, 14 April 1983).

[porcazio]

THERE ARE NO SUCH THINGS AS PALESTINIANS. THEY NEVER EXISTED.

(Israeli Prime Minister Golda Meir, June 15, 1969).

[ef9hatchman]

BAH!!!!!

[porcazio]

There are good and bad Israeli, as well as Jews, just like for any other group there are good and the bad individual in its composition. But one's allegiance must be to justice and righteousness to be called good; and when one’s own country strays from the acceptable, then, dissent, or at least silence, is required. I am enraged and disgusted to view the ignorant, on the most part, and hypocritical support of Israel’s policies against the Palestinians.
I have been following the issue for years, and for years Israel provoked the Palestinians in many cruel and creative ways. Israel would enter occupied territories and beat up Palestinians; the Palestinians would react throwing rocks; the Israeli would shoot live ammo, killing and wounding scores of Palestinians; the Palestinians would launch missiles (or, "big fireworks") into near Israeli cities, killing none, or maybe one or two Israeli; Israel would use its full fledged military force killing hundreds of Palestinians.
This went on and on, since I'm old enough to read news. Before that, I did some research, and KittyKaiti, you are not ignorant: you are a liar and hypocrite; history, true history, is a compendium of Israel's cruelty and blatant disregard for international laws and human rights.
The media is strongly influenced and molded by its Jewish ownership; none-the-less, it is easy to condemn the conditions the Palestinians endure at the hands of Israel. As of 2006, 267,163 Israelis live within the West Bank and East Jerusalem. The establishment and expansion of these settlements in the West Bank and (at the time) the Gaza Strip have been described as violations of the fourth Geneva Convention by the UN Security Council in several resolutions. The European Union and the General Assembly of the United Nations consider the settlements to be illegal. I find it hard to chastise the Palestinians when they react to these abuses; even more so when Israel, in contrast, uses substantial excess of force, not short of genocide.
The Palestinians seem to me like a toddler from the kindergarten, who left famished and rebuffed, cries and moves frantically to be acknowledged; Israel is a brute that replies to the toddler with a punch in the face; in the news you would read that the kid was moving erratically in his nuisance becoming a security issue, therefore needing to be thwarted with swift and firm resolve.
Ignorant and blatantly hypocritical are those who support Israel. Mostly, they know very well that, being few, they must rally together to uphold their horrid mischiefs, tapping all their resources, media and political puppeteering, to brainwash the world in agreeing to their unlikely righteousness.
KittyKaiti, you are right, people should research more the Israeli-Palestinian issue; but people like you would be sorry then, for none would like Israel anymore.
Once again, many Israeli do not approve the policies of violence of their present government, and my spite is vented only towards those that do.

[phobun]

This thread is bait for stupid people.


.

[El Nino]

Reports are coming out (even in the face of Israeli media suppression), that they are using depleted uranium and white phosphorus weaponry against Gaza victims.
http://www.prisonplanet.com/israel-using-depleted-uranium-against-gaza-victims.html

London Times Reports: http://www.prisonplanet.com/israel-rains-fire-on-gaza-with-phosphorus-shells.html

[phobun]

Reports are coming out (even in the face of Israeli media suppression), that they are using depleted uranium and white phosphorus weaponry against Gaza victims.
http://www.prisonplanet.com/israel-using-depleted-uranium-against-gaza-victims.html

London Times Reports: http://www.prisonplanet.com/israel-rains-fire-on-gaza-with-phosphorus-shells.html

Prisonplanet.com? Of course. This thread IS bait for the stupid.

Here's a good one for you, and on a forum right up your alley, and yes it's a toughie too:

"Who is crazier: David Icke or Alex Jones?"
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread229827/pg1

[ef9hatchman]

Reports are coming out (even in the face of Israeli media suppression), that they are using depleted uranium and white phosphorus weaponry against Gaza victims.
http://www.prisonplanet.com/israel-using-depleted-uranium-against-gaza-victims.html

London Times Reports: http://www.prisonplanet.com/israel-rains-fire-on-gaza-with-phosphorus-shells.html

Prisonplanet.com? Of course. This thread IS bait for the stupid.

Here's a good one for you, and on a forum right up your alley, and yes it's a toughie too:

"Who is crazier: David Icke or Alex Jones?"
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread229827/pg1
Caught you right.Unintelligent Douche.

[El Nino]

Reports are coming out (even in the face of Israeli media suppression), that they are using depleted uranium and white phosphorus weaponry against Gaza victims.
http://www.prisonplanet.com/israel-using-depleted-uranium-against-gaza-victims.html

London Times Reports: http://www.prisonplanet.com/israel-rains-fire-on-gaza-with-phosphorus-shells.html

Prisonplanet.com? Of course. This thread IS bait for the stupid.

Here's a good one for you, and on a forum right up your alley, and yes it's a toughie too:

"Who is crazier: David Icke or Alex Jones?"
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread229827/pg1
Caught you right.Unintelligent Douche.

Actually the article came from the conservative London Times, PP just reported that. Don't kill the messengers, Losers

[Niccolo]

Niccolo your hate doesn't isn't even worthy of a response. In fact the only appropriate post on here ... seanchi

What "hate" would that be then? Be specific. And if you choose to respond, please try to respond to the points I actually made regarding what you had already said. Because throwing out a vague ad hominem insult then ignoring what's been said is what's ... well ... to use your own term ... pathetic.

[Niccolo]

Dismal, take your own conclusions.


http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=3b3_1230864719

HOLY SHIT

1. This belongs in the Politics and Religion section.
2. This video is NOT Israel. Read the goddamn description you retard. That is video footage of a Hamas parade in which Hamas weapons accidentally went off and blew up in a crowd of people. This has NOTHING to do with Israel. Stop being a fucking Nazi Jew hater.
3. Israel has the fucking right to defend itself and I fully support their actions. I bet you wouldn't be bitching if terrorists were launching rockets into your neighborhood, killing your family and neighbors. You'd want the government to stop them. Stupid people enrage me. How is Israel supposed to combat people that fire rockets from the roof tops of schools and hospitals? Stop bitching about Israel.

This picture accurately depicts my mood now that I just read through the stupidity in this thread.

Amen sister!

[Niccolo]

Hamas for example, as we have seen all across Europe and the Middle East (figures, its all Muslim infected land).

Didn't take you long to raise your racism did it? So it's nothing to do with terrorism ... just Muslims that you hate?

Islam is an ideology, not a race. That's simple enough for anyone to grasp, surely. If you don't believe me ask Christopher Hitchens, who shot down some ignoramus who tried that one with him just the other week.

Another pointless ad hominem insult from seanchi there.

[El Nino]

Yahoo News:
Israeli strike hits 'outside' UN school, 34 dead

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090106/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_palestinians

http://whatreallyhappened.com/

[Niccolo]

Hamas for example, as we have seen all across Europe and the Middle East (figures, its all Muslim infected land).

Didn't take you long to raise your racism did it? So it's nothing to do with terrorism ... just Muslims that you hate?


Islam is not a religion. It was founded by Muhammed, a known pedophile and terrorist. He lead wars against neighboring countries to force Islam upon everyone. Everyone that refused was slaughtered. Islam is a cult of violence and genocide. In my book, it isn't racist. You can't be racist against terrorism.
Bwah Bwah Bwah....
So what religion are you? Please tell - and what religions do you consider "a religion".

I am atheist because I am intelligent enough to understand that all religion is a lie. There is no God and if there was, he/she wouldn't be a dick as depicted in the bible. Religion is mass conspiracy against the people to gain control over the masses. It was created by ancient civilizations to explain all the weird shit we couldn't understand or explain. Religion evolved into what it is today and has caused nothing but destruction and war. Islam is just the worst of it, invented by a homicidal, pedophilic, terrorist. I could name many other "religions" that are just money scams and evil organizations, like the Catholic Church (who supported the Nazis in WWII) and Scientology (probably the largest money scam in U.S. history).

Ok, fair enough answer. You either see the whole thing as shit - or you accept all reglions.
However, stating that the area was "infected" by Muslims (paraphrased) is akin to stating that Israel is "infected" by Jews or Judaism, is it not? Or have you chosen to side with one conspiracy over another?

I don't mind if someone wants to believe in God. That is your choice, you're completely wrong, but it's your choice. But when you take your beliefs and force them on people, I hate you for it. I keep saying this, Islam was founded on genocide and terrorism. There is nothing peaceful about it. The Qur'an repeatedly states to kill those that don't follow Islam. Spread it to everyone and convert or die. Judaism on the other hand was founded peacefully and does not promote mass murder. The Jews are a peaceful people and have always been the target of eradication. They don't force their views on anyone. Muslims though, force their views on everyone. They still do it today.

The sole purpose of Islam is to infect and destroy. They spread from place to place and force Islam on everyone. Europe has a massive Muslim population now. They have all been moving over there, flooding the UK, France, pretty much all of western and southern Europe. They riot (France a few years ago) and force the governments of said nations, such as the UK, to enact Sharia Law (Muslim Law). They force the construction of mosques and neighborhoods and just keep rioting, protesting and demanding more. Look at how many of them have entered Europe lately. It's an invasion. In about 15 years, Europe will be under Islamic control. Russia is flooded with them. We cannot allow Islam to take over the free world. It is a terrorist cult and it's spreading. I view Islam as a virus or cancer. Now they're in Canada. They are subverting our countries into becoming Islamic states. This is why I hate them. I refuse to live under Sharia Law. I hate terrorists and Islam is terrorism. It has to stop.

I could not find a nice way to say this so. You need to go back to school Take a religion class for all I care. You have no Moral beliefs your arguements sound like you think that (you[kaiti] are right and we the people who justify our arguements are wrong.)
your atheist thats fine,you are given that right as a human being(American) to choose your religion. Some poeple DO NOT let me repeat myself DO NOT have the right to choose their religion many ARAB countries do not have our rights. So have you ever taken that into consideration? On a personal note your too involved on tellng people what is right and wrong based on your beliefs.

Your saying there isnt a god,Islam is wrong follow me...basically, I just want to point out what you hate is what your doing.
What the fuck are you even talking about?

[Niccolo]

I'm sure there are good Muslims in the world but I will never respect Islam. It was founded on terrorism and genocide and will always be evil in my eyes. - kittyKaiti[

Amen sister (again)!

[Niccolo]

Hamas for example, as we have seen all across Europe and the Middle East (figures, its all Muslim infected land).

Didn't take you long to raise your racism did it? So it's nothing to do with terrorism ... just Muslims that you hate?


Islam is not a religion. It was founded by Muhammed, a known pedophile and terrorist. He lead wars against neighboring countries to force Islam upon everyone. Everyone that refused was slaughtered. Islam is a cult of violence and genocide. In my book, it isn't racist. You can't be racist against terrorism.
Bwah Bwah Bwah....
So what religion are you? Please tell - and what religions do you consider "a religion".

I am atheist because I am intelligent enough to understand that all religion is a lie. There is no God and if there was, he/she wouldn't be a dick as depicted in the bible. Religion is mass conspiracy against the people to gain control over the masses. It was created by ancient civilizations to explain all the weird shit we couldn't understand or explain. Religion evolved into what it is today and has caused nothing but destruction and war. Islam is just the worst of it, invented by a homicidal, pedophilic, terrorist. I could name many other "religions" that are just money scams and evil organizations, like the Catholic Church (who supported the Nazis in WWII) and Scientology (probably the largest money scam in U.S. history).

Ehmm, sorry to disapoint you but, nop, you are not intelligent enough to understand religion... apparently you are not well informed either about the things that you say.

You are the reason the world hates the USA.... people like you... that make statements like that, without taking a minute to realize that what you say is a bunch of bullcrap.... if you don't know what you are talking about, please do all of us a favor and SHUT UP... then get informed (as in real information), read, get some descent education... and then, maybe just maybe you can open your mouth and say something worth.

Everyone is entitled their own opinion... and you are entitled yours too, as long as you know what the hell you're saying... and as long as you don't use that opinion as an excuse to insult other people.

In the end, the only one looking like an ignorant is you.
If you are an expert on religious studies, on Islam in particular, then please go ahead and make your case and explain exactly why the other poster is wrong. For this ad hominem diatribe of yours speaks to your own intellectual limitations, and that's all it does. You have said nothing at all about the matter at hand.

[Niccolo]

I'd really like all those people who insulted kittyKaiti when she spoke about Islam to reveal what they know about Islam. Because there were precious little comments addressing what she actually said about Islam. Who's actually done any serious study here? Anybody? As for the comments about kittyKaiti's likening Islam to a virus, well that's an old, old idea. Surely someone here has read Richard Dawkins?

http://richarddawkins.net/article,106,Root-of-All-Evil-Part-2-The-Virus-of-Faith,Richard-Dawkins---Channel-4

[Niccolo]

Actually the article came from the conservative London Times, PP just reported that. Don't kill the messengers, Losers - El Nino
But the article didn't say what you claimed now, did it? At the very beginning of this thread people either didn't bother watching a video, which was also under a misleading heading btw, or else they misunderstood it entirely, and automatically began knocking Israel. Here's an article which does not say that Israel is using that outlawed weapon against "Gaza victims" at all. I wonder how many people actually read the article. You obviously didn't. Or, like so many people with the original video, if you did read it, then you didn't understand it.

[KirstenH]

Make LOVE not WAR!

How stupid can a human being be to fight and
make war nowadays?

Jesus, do these people never grow up??? :roll:

[El Nino]

"Whiskey Pete" is being dropped over there...

[fred41]

I'd really like all those people who insulted kittyKaiti when she spoke about Islam to reveal what they know about Islam. Because there were precious little comments addressing what she actually said about Islam. Who's actually done any serious study here? Anybody? As for the comments about kittyKaiti's likening Islam to a virus, well that's an old, old idea. Surely someone here has read Richard Dawkins?

http://richarddawkins.net/article,106,Root-of-All-Evil-Part-2-The-Virus-of-Faith,Richard-Dawkins---Channel-4

They probably know precious little. They should read Robert Spencer's books: "The Truth About Muhammad" and "The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam (and the Crusades)". they are very eyeopening. Seems a lot of what the young lady said was true. But if it doesn't mesh with people's idea of -"we're all the same and if we could just talk..all our problems would be solved"..views of the world..then it's automatically hate speech and can't be listened to even if it's factual. Ask all the people who have death decrees put on their heads because the good people of Islam didn't like what they said or wrote or drew or acted improperly, etc. These things weren't done by a "small meaningless, Muslim minority..they were declared by Islamic religious leaders of "whole countries"..like Iran.
I love people who like to say Christianity and Islam are the same (or the Bible versus the Koran)..I can't remember someone in modern times who was threatened to be put to death for criticizing christianity or the bible. try that with the Koran....and NO I'm not religious at all.

[Solitary Brother]

A question without answer i read in Vanguard News Network:

What a Jewy thing to do. Did you know that the Geneva Conventions - which Israel ratified in 1951 - prohibit using military force against civilians? But then, when you’re a Jew, rules don’t apply to you.

http://www.vanguardnewsnetwork.com/

This statement is quite racist.
You need to make a distinction here.
ZIONIST's are the people that support whats going on in Israel today NOT Jews.
Many jews do NOT support the occupation.
Go do some research and by the way the vanguard network is a RACIST network.....you can look it up they arent objective and VERY white racist orientated.

[Solitary Brother]

Hamas for example, as we have seen all across Europe and the Middle East (figures, its all Muslim infected land).

Didn't take you long to raise your racism did it? So it's nothing to do with terrorism ... just Muslims that you hate?


Islam is not a religion. It was founded by Muhammed, a known pedophile and terrorist. He lead wars against neighboring countries to force Islam upon everyone. Everyone that refused was slaughtered. Islam is a cult of violence and genocide. In my book, it isn't racist. You can't be racist against terrorism.

Wow.
I started to side with you a little until you started writing evil hateful stuff like this.
You sound like an Israeli settler.
I hope its just the anger speaking instead of your true feelings.

[maximilian]

Dismal, take your own conclusions.


http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=3b3_1230864719

You need to correct the title of this thread. It's not a scene of an IDF attack in Gaza on1/1/09, but of an explosion during a Hamas parade in 2005.

[deadlyray]

Horrifying. Couldn't watch it.

[worldbro]

Its funny how we look at despicable acts in the middle East and tie it to Islam;
funny I wonder if the people over there look at the acts the the Ku Klux Klan do and base their judgment of Christianity off of that.

[the_corner]

Hamas for example, as we have seen all across Europe and the Middle East (figures, its all Muslim infected land).

Didn't take you long to raise your racism did it? So it's nothing to do with terrorism ... just Muslims that you hate?


Islam is not a religion. It was founded by Muhammed, a known pedophile and terrorist. He lead wars against neighboring countries to force Islam upon everyone. Everyone that refused was slaughtered. Islam is a cult of violence and genocide. In my book, it isn't racist. You can't be racist against terrorism.
Bwah Bwah Bwah....
So what religion are you? Please tell - and what religions do you consider "a religion".

I am atheist because I am intelligent enough to understand that all religion is a lie. There is no God and if there was, he/she wouldn't be a dick as depicted in the bible. Religion is mass conspiracy against the people to gain control over the masses. It was created by ancient civilizations to explain all the weird shit we couldn't understand or explain. Religion evolved into what it is today and has caused nothing but destruction and war. Islam is just the worst of it, invented by a homicidal, pedophilic, terrorist. I could name many other "religions" that are just money scams and evil organizations, like the Catholic Church (who supported the Nazis in WWII) and Scientology (probably the largest money scam in U.S. history).

Ehmm, sorry to disapoint you but, nop, you are not intelligent enough to understand religion... apparently you are not well informed either about the things that you say.

You are the reason the world hates the USA.... people like you... that make statements like that, without taking a minute to realize that what you say is a bunch of bullcrap.... if you don't know what you are talking about, please do all of us a favor and SHUT UP... then get informed (as in real information), read, get some descent education... and then, maybe just maybe you can open your mouth and say something worth.

Everyone is entitled their own opinion... and you are entitled yours too, as long as you know what the hell you're saying... and as long as you don't use that opinion as an excuse to insult other people.

In the end, the only one looking like an ignorant is you.
If you are an expert on religious studies, on Islam in particular, then please go ahead and make your case and explain exactly why the other poster is wrong. For this ad hominem diatribe of yours speaks to your own intellectual limitations, and that's all it does. You have said nothing at all about the matter at hand.

Hmm... well... I have not stated in anyway that I am an expert in religious studies, or Islam... fact is your argument is "ad hominem" since you are trying to disprove me and basically appeal at the the hypothetical fact that "I am an expert", and therefore I should prove... does that makes your argument also an argumentum ad ignorantiam?.... I should not need to disprove anything that Kaiti has said... it is clearly filled with over exaggerations on things that are not completely true... how do you call that? an association fallacy?.... "Catholic Church (who supported the Nazis in WWII)" <-- Reductio ad Hitlerum?... association fallacy?

Apart, this thread is not about atheism or religion or darwinism, and is not about formal or informal fallacies, and is not about Richard Dawkins either... why can't I agree with Kaiti?

Simply put... there is no way that she, or you, or anyone can justify... based on fallacies... the killing and murdering of civilian people on an armed conflict.... or use an armed conflict as excuse to bring up an atheism discussion (does that make you guilty of association fallacy again?)....

And well, the fact that she tries to prove a point... by association fallacy...
insulting everyone in the process, calling people from other religious groups a bunch of derogatory things, just proves a great deal of ignorance, so my point remains.

And you... trying to justify her.... you are just a boot licker... better yet... to put it on HA terms... a brown-noser :wink:

[ef9hatchman]

BAN FOR NICCOLO. Dumbass Nutswinger....your what we call a dickrider no not Literally. Dickrider is like a brown noser who is one to an extreme.
Btw Kaiti if you hate people on the fact of being MUSLIM you might as well hate the whole world or at least those who arent atheist.

[needsum]

Hamas for example, as we have seen all across Europe and the Middle East (figures, its all Muslim infected land).

Didn't take you long to raise your racism did it? So it's nothing to do with terrorism ... just Muslims that you hate?


Islam is not a religion. It was founded by Muhammed, a known pedophile and terrorist. He lead wars against neighboring countries to force Islam upon everyone. Everyone that refused was slaughtered. Islam is a cult of violence and genocide. In my book, it isn't racist. You can't be racist against terrorism.

Not that I disagree with you regarding radical islamism (and I stress RADICAL) as not being a religion, but the rest of your description rings of Catholicism as well. Crusades, the witch hunts, the inquisition, all acts of horriffic brutality in the name of Jesus Christ against those who did not follow the forced religion.

When religion preaches things like seperatism, hatred, and violence, it no longer becomes a religion--it becomes a cult. Religion is supposed to be about faith, peace, love and understanding. But there are those who have none of that in their hearts, but use the faith of others to do their own bidding. And so we have the Catholic Church, and the Shool of Mohammed, using "God" as their justification for all their actions.

[Silcc69]

My take on religion. There's probably multiple god's and one main God that use us for entertainment purposes. Because let's face it humans being's are entertaining creatures.

[phobun]

BAN FOR NICCOLO. Dumbass Nutswinger....your what we call a dickrider no not Literally. Dickrider is like a brown noser who is one to an extreme.
Btw Kaiti if you hate people on the fact of being MUSLIM you might as well hate the whole world or at least those who arent atheist.

This thread is catnip for stupid hissing felines.

[Niccolo]

And you... trying to justify her....

I asked you why you thought she was wrong in her assessment of Islam, and I'm still waiting for a response to that. Where exactly has she uttered an untruth? Point it out. Be specific. If you think you know enough about Islam to comment on it, then please share your knowledge with us all. But well, I asked if you actually know anything about Islam, and apparently you don't. So why should anyone take your opinion of what anyone else says about Islam seriously?

[Niccolo]

"Whiskey Pete" is being dropped over there...

Actually the article came from the conservative London Times, PP just reported that. Don't kill the messengers, Losers - El Nino

But the article didn't say what you claimed now, did it? At the very beginning of this thread people either didn't bother watching a video, which was also under a misleading heading btw, or else they misunderstood it entirely, and automatically began knocking Israel. Here's an article which does not say that Israel is using that outlawed weapon against "Gaza victims" at all. I wonder how many people actually read the article. You obviously didn't. Or, like so many people with the original video, if you did read it, then you didn't understand it.

[Niccolo]

I'd really like all those people who insulted kittyKaiti when she spoke about Islam to reveal what they know about Islam. Because there were precious little comments addressing what she actually said about Islam. Who's actually done any serious study here? Anybody? As for the comments about kittyKaiti's likening Islam to a virus, well that's an old, old idea. Surely someone here has read Richard Dawkins?

http://richarddawkins.net/article,106,Root-of-All-Evil-Part-2-The-Virus-of-Faith,Richard-Dawkins---Channel-4

They probably know precious little. They should read Robert Spencer's books: "The Truth About Muhammad" and "The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam (and the Crusades)". they are very eyeopening. Seems a lot of what the young lady said was true. But if it doesn't mesh with people's idea of -"we're all the same and if we could just talk..all our problems would be solved"..views of the world..then it's automatically hate speech and can't be listened to even if it's factual. Ask all the people who have death decrees put on their heads because the good people of Islam didn't like what they said or wrote or drew or acted improperly, etc. These things weren't done by a "small meaningless, Muslim minority..they were declared by Islamic religious leaders of "whole countries"..like Iran.
I love people who like to say Christianity and Islam are the same (or the Bible versus the Koran)..I can't remember someone in modern times who was threatened to be put to death for criticizing christianity or the bible. try that with the Koran....and NO I'm not religious at all.

There are some strange characters using this board, that's for sure. I see no attempt being made to actually defend Islamic teachings; to say (for example) that the Islamic prophet did not marry Aisha when she was six, and initiate sexual relations with her when she was nine years old. Nor does anyone attempt to explain how this event can be reconciled with the Islamic belief that their prophet is the "ideal man" whose behaviour is something to be emulated by all good Muslims everywhere. And there has been no mention at all of any of the atrocities committed by Islamic forces throughout history, not least by Mohammad, who unquestionably had a ruthless streak about him. (To put it mildly!)

What happens is that people are attacked personally if they say anything critical of Islam. It's a very curious phenomenon.

I don't know if you have ever read Bruce Bawer's book, "While Europe Slept," or any of his articles on Islam. He's written a lot of good stuff on this topic, and if you're already familiar with Robert Spencer's work, then I think you might enjoy Bruce Bawer too.

[yosi]

just to remind you : the palestinians in Gaza had a great celebration on the 9/11.

if Los Angeles was bombed on a daily basis from accross the border in Mexico for the last 8 years , do you think that the american army won't hit back ?

and after all of that the American army will be accused for attacking inocent Mexicans , how will you react than?

[Hannibal Lecter]

just to remind you : the palestinians in Gaza had a great celebration on the 9/11.

if Los Angeles was bombed on a daily basis from accross the border in Mexico for the last 8 years , do you think that the american army won't hit back ?

and after all of that the American army will be accused for attacking inocent Mexicans , how will you react than?

Yes, but put in special police squads instead, not an entire army, for God's sake. Izrael have to deal with a group of terrorists in Gaza, not a "real" army. What we see right now is quite an unproportional reaction and seems to be ment to target civilians as much as possible. Children, schools, entire families, etc..

[ef9hatchman]

BAN FOR NICCOLO. Dumbass Nutswinger....your what we call a dickrider no not Literally. Dickrider is like a brown noser who is one to an extreme.
Btw Kaiti if you hate people on the fact of being MUSLIM you might as well hate the whole world or at least those who arent atheist.

This thread is catnip for stupid hissing felines.PHOBUN worst poster ever...

[yosi]

just to remind you : the palestinians in Gaza had a great celebration on the 9/11.

if Los Angeles was bombed on a daily basis from accross the border in Mexico for the last 8 years , do you think that the american army won't hit back ?

and after all of that the American army will be accused for attacking inocent Mexicans , how will you react than?

Yes, but put in special police squads instead, not an entire army, for God's sake. Izrael have to deal with a group of terrorists in Gaza, not a "real" army. What we see right now is quite an unproportional reaction and seems to be ment to target civilians as much as possible. Children, schools, entire families, etc..

Al Quaida of Bin Laden is also a terorist organization , not an army......

the goal of these terorist Islamic groups is "Jihad" - holy war , to make the whole world muslim , doing it by killing innocent poeple like the 9/11 in America , or like the latest attack in Mumbay India.

these terorists in Gaza, hide in schools , in Shifa hospital in Gaza , forcing innocent palestinians at gunpoint to shoot missiles on Israeli teritory for the last 8 years , and you are talking about inhumanity on the Israeli side.........

[fred41]

just to remind you : the palestinians in Gaza had a great celebration on the 9/11.

if Los Angeles was bombed on a daily basis from accross the border in Mexico for the last 8 years , do you think that the american army won't hit back ?

and after all of that the American army will be accused for attacking inocent Mexicans , how will you react than?

Yes, but put in special police squads instead, not an entire army, for God's sake. Izrael have to deal with a group of terrorists in Gaza, not a "real" army. What we see right now is quite an unproportional reaction and seems to be ment to target civilians as much as possible. Children, schools, entire families, etc..

Please define what a "proportional reaction" in a war is?? ..and while you're at it - please explain to me how you can completely avoid killing innocent civilians when the enemy hides , and yes, shoots at you from their midst. Has it ever occured to any of you that if Israel just wanted to wipe out or "target" as many civilians as possible..there would be a helluva lot more casualties than there already are.

Perhaps..some of you could also tell me what Israel's reaction should be after Hamas first violates ..and then refuses to extend a cease fire...(and please don't answer with "they should react proportionally"without defining what that should be) ??

[fred41]

I'd really like all those people who insulted kittyKaiti when she spoke about Islam to reveal what they know about Islam. Because there were precious little comments addressing what she actually said about Islam. Who's actually done any serious study here? Anybody? As for the comments about kittyKaiti's likening Islam to a virus, well that's an old, old idea. Surely someone here has read Richard Dawkins?

http://richarddawkins.net/article,106,Root-of-All-Evil-Part-2-The-Virus-of-Faith,Richard-Dawkins---Channel-4

They probably know precious little. They should read Robert Spencer's books: "The Truth About Muhammad" and "The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam (and the Crusades)". they are very eyeopening. Seems a lot of what the young lady said was true. But if it doesn't mesh with people's idea of -"we're all the same and if we could just talk..all our problems would be solved"..views of the world..then it's automatically hate speech and can't be listened to even if it's factual. Ask all the people who have death decrees put on their heads because the good people of Islam didn't like what they said or wrote or drew or acted improperly, etc. These things weren't done by a "small meaningless, Muslim minority..they were declared by Islamic religious leaders of "whole countries"..like Iran.
I love people who like to say Christianity and Islam are the same (or the Bible versus the Koran)..I can't remember someone in modern times who was threatened to be put to death for criticizing christianity or the bible. try that with the Koran....and NO I'm not religious at all.

There are some strange characters using this board, that's for sure. I see no attempt being made to actually defend Islamic teachings; to say (for example) that the Islamic prophet did not marry Aisha when she was six, and initiate sexual relations with her when she was nine years old. Nor does anyone attempt to explain how this event can be reconciled with the Islamic belief that their prophet is the "ideal man" whose behaviour is something to be emulated by all good Muslims everywhere. And there has been no mention at all of any of the atrocities committed by Islamic forces throughout history, not least by Mohammad, who unquestionably had a ruthless streak about him. (To put it mildly!)

What happens is that people are attacked personally if they say anything critical of Islam. It's a very curious phenomenon.

I don't know if you have ever read Bruce Bawer's book, "While Europe Slept," or any of his articles on Islam. He's written a lot of good stuff on this topic, and if you're already familiar with Robert Spencer's work, then I think you might enjoy Bruce Bawer too.

Thanks, I'll give it a read. I find it interesting how a member here even wants to ban you and calls you "brown noser" just because he has no actual answers to your statements (or doesn't like what you have to say). You therefore must be a brownnoser because the person you're defending (or her statements) happens to be a TS...and therefore that must logically be the only reason you would possibly defend her.

So lets ban you and everyone else we don't like the answers of ..until we only have people here that agree completely with each other . You must be a right wing nut bag..so you have to go. .......of course,..little to no criticism of the conspiracy theory, left wing nut bags that are allowed to run unchecked.......yeah that's fair.[/i][/b]

[pittpanther2010]

Why did everyone immediately start talking about how awful it was for Israel to do this? Doesn't the description say that Hamas was parading the weapons and they went off? Maybe I'm reading it wrong but I took it as an accident. (And for the record, I think both sides are wrong).

[alyssats]

Goshhh I wasnt able to finish the video I cant take it anymore :(

I think this thread should be locked or should be in the pit

Salaam/Shalom to all!

[trish]

Hamas, once a religiously inspired terrorist organization, is now also an elected political party. Palestinian elections are coming up again soon. Could it be that Hamas’s renewed provocation of Israel’s wrath is a political ploy to stir up hatred for Israel and votes for the party?

This morning NPR aired a brief discussion touching on the military definition of the phrase “acceptable civilian losses.” It seems the losses are acceptable if their sum doesn’t outweigh the benefits of military action. Which accountants are to be hired to make the assessment wasn’t mentioned. I’m sure military and political minds can easily weigh civilian deaths against troop advancements and other sorts of strategic or political gains. Hamas, for example, fires their mortars from within Palestinian schools and hospitals gambling that the children and patients will function as a kind of repellant against retaliation. Not only is this odious practice itself repellant, it’s paradoxical. By Hamas’s own reckoning, a school full of Palestinian children is worth only the one or two Israeli’s their entire mortar barrage is likely to injure. Of course Israel is inclined to agree with such an assessment and take out the school. Big tit for little tat has been Israel’s modus operandi for decades. It’s predicable.

Personally, I don’t think Israel has a right to exist and neither does Palestine nor Iran nor any other religious form of government. Israeli’s and Palestinians living together with equal citizenship under a secular government would be another story. If Israel could transform itself into a modern, 21st century, secular government and grant equal citizenship and uniform rights to Israeli’s and Palestinians alike, then it might be able to establish its right to exist in the Middle East.

[Hannibal Lecter]

Al Quaida of Bin Laden is also a terorist organization , not an army......

True. I could not agree more.


the goal of these terorist Islamic groups is "Jihad" - holy war , to make the whole world muslim , doing it by killing innocent poeple like the 9/11 in America , or like the latest attack in Mumbay India.

Is it? How do you know that? Have you talked to them? To me, "making whole world muslim" is a pretty optimistic goal to achieve from a sieged little shit hole called Gaza. Sounds like an eutopia to me. But now again, could you please explain to me, how Gaza became a sieged little shit hole?
How came that all those innocent people managed to put more than 1.5 milion other people in the shit hole called Gaza? Oh, well, it does not matter, i guess. The most important thing is that they are - like you said - innocent.


these terorists in Gaza, hide in schools , in Shifa hospital in Gaza , forcing innocent palestinians at gunpoint to shoot missiles on Israeli teritory for the last 8 years , and you are talking about inhumanity on the Israeli side.........

Ok, and that is a perfect excuse to you for killing all those civilians. I think that Izrael's military force also is supposed to defend even those innocent palestinians held as hostages, but not kill them as well along with terrorists. That is definitely the wrong way of defeating terrorism, don't you think so? It gives me a totaly wrong picture of that "human" side of Izrael.

[Hannibal Lecter]

just to remind you : the palestinians in Gaza had a great celebration on the 9/11.

if Los Angeles was bombed on a daily basis from accross the border in Mexico for the last 8 years , do you think that the american army won't hit back ?

and after all of that the American army will be accused for attacking inocent Mexicans , how will you react than?

Yes, but put in special police squads instead, not an entire army, for God's sake. Izrael have to deal with a group of terrorists in Gaza, not a "real" army. What we see right now is quite an unproportional reaction and seems to be ment to target civilians as much as possible. Children, schools, entire families, etc..

Please define what a "proportional reaction" in a war is?? ..and while you're at it - please explain to me how you can completely avoid killing innocent civilians when the enemy hides , and yes, shoots at you from their midst. Has it ever occured to any of you that if Israel just wanted to wipe out or "target" as many civilians as possible..there would be a helluva lot more casualties than there already are.

Perhaps..some of you could also tell me what Israel's reaction should be after Hamas first violates ..and then refuses to extend a cease fire...(and please don't answer with "they should react proportionally"without defining what that should be) ??

With all the technology that Izrael's army posess, I consider it to be a shame not being able to spot all those terrorists inside so small area as Gaza is. Believe me or not, but this reaction is more than unproportional.

[fred41]

just to remind you : the palestinians in Gaza had a great celebration on the 9/11.

if Los Angeles was bombed on a daily basis from accross the border in Mexico for the last 8 years , do you think that the american army won't hit back ?

and after all of that the American army will be accused for attacking inocent Mexicans , how will you react than?

Yes, but put in special police squads instead, not an entire army, for God's sake. Izrael have to deal with a group of terrorists in Gaza, not a "real" army. What we see right now is quite an unproportional reaction and seems to be ment to target civilians as much as possible. Children, schools, entire families, etc..

Please define what a "proportional reaction" in a war is?? ..and while you're at it - please explain to me how you can completely avoid killing innocent civilians when the enemy hides , and yes, shoots at you from their midst. Has it ever occured to any of you that if Israel just wanted to wipe out or "target" as many civilians as possible..there would be a helluva lot more casualties than there already are.

Perhaps..some of you could also tell me what Israel's reaction should be after Hamas first violates ..and then refuses to extend a cease fire...(and please don't answer with "they should react proportionally"without defining what that should be) ??

With all the technology that Izrael's army posess, I consider it to be a shame not being able to spot all those terrorists inside so small area as Gaza is. Believe me or not, but this reaction is more than unproportional.

What kind of technology does that. We don't have it . If a Hamas terrorist takes off that silly ski mask he always seems to wear in photos...then he's just a Palestinian civilian....terrorists don't glow in the dark..or have a floating "T" over their heads.

You can't expect a military to use weapons that don't exist yet..and if they don't ..claim they should.

[smart]

How many Japanese did we kill in World War 2 compared to Americans killed? How many Arabs got killed in Iraq and Afghanistan compared to Americans in the Trade Centers? If some one punches me in the face I am only suppose to hit them once back???

War is nasty business, civilians always get hurt and killed. These countries declared war on Israel not the other way around. Should they wait until Hamas gets some better weapons from Iran like a dirty bomb before they hit back hard.

Just remember they are fighting over the Promise Land that was given to them by God in the Bible. This is more humane then what the Americans did to the native people here or any other Europeans did to any area they went to. I know its disturbing see this on Utube. Imagine watching everything that happened in the past on Utube and not just reading about it. Or imagining it through movies and books.

Americans need to grow up and understand that we are a country at War with people we do not know to much about. If Iran was are neighbor think of the fun we would be having.

[Niccolo]

Al Quaida of Bin Laden is also a terorist organization , not an army...... the goal of these terorist Islamic groups is "Jihad" - holy war , to make the whole world muslim , doing it by killing innocent poeple like the 9/11 in America , or like the latest attack in Mumbay India. - yosi


Is it? How do you know that? Have you talked to them? To me, "making whole world muslim" is a pretty optimistic goal to achieve from a sieged little shit hole called Gaza. Sounds like an eutopia to me. - Hannibal

I submit to you that yosi holds that view because he has done a little reading on the subject. It is not at all hard nowadays to study the views of Islamic terrorists. They're not shy about telling you exactly what they think. Or one can go straight to the source and study the Koran, and the life of the Islamic prophet (the "ideal man").

I visited Malta recently, and saw with my own eyes where the Knights of St. John and the Maltese people fought off the Islamic forces of Sulieman the Magnificent in 1565 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Malta_(1565)). I was there for a holiday, but when those bastards sailed for Malta, they were trying to bring Europe under the rule of Islam. As Ernle Bradford, author of "The Great Siege" notes, their aim was to do what we did in WWII - from Malta, take Sicily, and from Sicily, invade Italy and the rest of mainland Europe.

If you're at all interested in the way Islam has driven its followers to conquer other nations throughout history, then I can recommend Bradford's book, as well as "Empires of the Sea (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Empires-Sea-Battle-Mediterranean-1521-1580/dp/0571232302)" by Roger Crowley - a thumping good read, if ever there was one. If you want a decent background to Al Qaeda, then Lawrence Wright's "The Looming Tower (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Looming-Tower-Al-Qaedas-Road/dp/0141029358/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1231378641&sr=1-1)" is probably your best bet. (Wright talks about writers like Sayyid Qutb (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sayyid_Qutb) as well, who could be said to have paved the way for what was to follow.) If you are interested in the way in which Islamic rulers (and pirates!) have treated non-Muslims, then I would have to point you towards "White Gold (http://www.amazon.co.uk/White-Gold-Giles-Milton/dp/0340794704/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1231379016&sr=8-2)" by Giles Milton. Another excellent read. Well, that's enough of me talking about books; I'll happily do so all day and all night. The point I was making was simply that there is a lot of material out there on Islam: what it's like, and what it's always been like. It seems to me that yosi has read some of it, that's all. (kittyKaiti has probably done so too btw.)

[phobun]

Goshhh I wasnt able to finish the video I cant take it anymore :(

I think this thread should be locked or should be in the pit

Salaam/Shalom to all!
I agree. You're sharp.

[Niccolo]

Goshhh I wasnt able to finish the video I cant take it anymore :(

I think this thread should be locked or should be in the pit

Salaam/Shalom to all!
I agree. You're sharp.

Nah, it's just getting interesting. Let's see what people are really made of, & what they really think. It could be quite revealing .. to paraphrase the late, great Bill Hicks, we can look at cock photos later ...

[SugaSweet]

Obama will not give a damn about what Israel is doing.He will kiss the ass of Israel and the most powerful lobbying group in the US,the Israeli lobby.Strange how so few of those peace loving Hollywood yentas do not open their mouths when Palestinians are being killed and mained.However,I do not blame Israel.After all,they could wait for the UN to resolve everything to the favor of the Palestinian rats.Thinking back to 9/11 when the Palestinians were cheering in the streets,I can only open a cold Samuel Adams and say "Hope you like the fireworks,ragheads"!

[tsmandy]

Hamas, once a religiously inspired terrorist organization, is now also an elected political party. Palestinian elections are coming up again soon. Could it be that Hamas’s renewed provocation of Israel’s wrath is a political ploy to stir up hatred for Israel and votes for the party?

This morning NPR aired a brief discussion touching on the military definition of the phrase “acceptable civilian losses.” It seems the losses are acceptable if their sum doesn’t outweigh the benefits of military action. Which accountants are to be hired to make the assessment wasn’t mentioned. I’m sure military and political minds can easily weigh civilian deaths against troop advancements and other sorts of strategic or political gains. Hamas, for example, fires their mortars from within Palestinian schools and hospitals gambling that the children and patients will function as a kind of repellant against retaliation. Not only is this odious practice itself repellant, it’s paradoxical. By Hamas’s own reckoning, a school full of Palestinian children is worth only the one or two Israeli’s their entire mortar barrage is likely to injure. Of course Israel is inclined to agree with such an assessment and take out the school. Big tit for little tat has been Israel’s modus operandi for decades. It’s predicable.

Personally, I don’t think Israel has a right to exist and neither does Palestine nor Iran nor any other religious form of government. Israeli’s and Palestinians living together with equal citizenship under a secular government would be another story. If Israel could transform itself into a modern, 21st century, secular government and grant equal citizenship and uniform rights to Israeli’s and Palestinians alike, then it might be able to establish its right to exist in the Middle East.

Not like anyone is going to respond to your post Trish, because its inconvenient to adress any relavent points. Israel is defined as a Jewish state. One that any jew in the world (or person claiming Jewish heritage be they Russian, Ethiopian or Argentine) can move to and instantly be granted more rights (such as the right to build a home once its been demolished, vote, etc...) than non Jewish residents who were born in Jerusalem, whose parents and grandparents, and great-grandparents have consistently lived in the same city for the last 150 years. 1 million russian Jews emigrated to Israel after the collapse of the soviet Union and took up residence as settlers in the occupied territories of Gaza and the West Bank. When Settlers shoot Palestinian children who are trying to harvest olives nobody takes notice, when Islamic Militants fire rockets and kill no one, it is seen as justification for full scale assaults on civilian populations.

Obviously the propaganda system in the United States has been extraordinarily successful at convincing the American public that all Arabs are Muslim, and all Arabs are terrorists. It's a shameful thing to read such vituperative racism, makes me sick to my stomach. Not all Palestinians are Muslims, not all Palestinians hate Americans.

After the outbreak of the Second intifada I had a friend who was volunteering (an white guy from New York) for the Palestinian Red Crescent Society (the Palestinian Red Cross) driving an ambulance. The idea was that Americans were less likely to get blown up driving pregnant women to the hospital than Arabs were. It was a terrifying time when we stopped hearing from him: he had been kidnapped by the IDF and they proceeded to use him as a human shield brutally beating him and denying him food, water, or access to the Red Cross or the UN. So those were the good guys, kidnapping Medics, running over peace activists with bulldozers, running over children and the elderly in wheelchairs with Caterpillars....etc.. Or as of yesterday bombing a UN shelter full of civilians and United Nations volunteers.

It is easy to ignore the reality of the Israeli occupation one that has been repeatedly condemned by the entire international community (save for the US and Israel), likened by Archbishop Desmond Tutu to Apartheid South Africa. It is also easy enough for the media to equate Zionism with Israel and ignore the many Jews within the United States, around the world, and in Israel who are absolutely disgusted by the brutality and racism of the Israeli state.

Appalling. Not surprising. Appalling nonetheless.

Everyone knows Hamas sucks, Palestinians know Hamas sucks. But Hamas was the only alternative to the worthless institutions created by Arafat (worthless because the state of Israel made sure Arafat never left his compound, and made sure that there would never be an effective Secular Palestinian state). The whole point all along was to drive the Palestinian population further into the arms of a radicalized Islamic state, and thus provide a pretext to extend military control and illegal settlements. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out, just a smidgen of intelligence and a reasonable understanding of history.

I've said my piece, and I'll go back to making porn. Continue on with the next 100 posts calling Arabs ragheads, and equating Islam with terrorism....Fucking imbeciles.

[JamesHunt]

Well at least Hamas don't need a recruitment agency, the Israelis do it for em :roll:

[ef9hatchman]

how the fuck did Osama Laden get put into this?
Hes Yemenian.
And for those who dont know asking why I didnt put BIN in there. Bin in arabic just mean "Son of"

[Niccolo]

I've said my piece, and I'll go back to making porn. Continue on with the next 100 posts calling Arabs ragheads, and equating Islam with terrorism....Fucking imbeciles. - Mandy

You seem quite well read Mandy, and reasonably up to speed on history and so forth, so I wonder if you have read any of the books I mentioned in my previous post? As for "equating Islam with terrorism", that's something of a straw man, surely? I wouldn't argue that they are one and the same, equal to one another, inside and out. It's more complex than that. However one could certainly argue that throughout history Islam has tried to bring the House of War under Islamic rule, I mean the facts speak for themselves there. And if one considers the principle of abrogation (later passages in the Koran override any contradictory passages that were written earlier), then one can see how Ayaan Hirsi Ali reached her conclusion, post 9/11, that when the bin Ladens and Mohammad Attas of the world say they are acting in accordance with Islamic teachings, they are telling the truth. Because the Islamic prophet certainly became more of a warlord, and committed some rather nasty acts, later on in his career. And there's always the quaint little story of his marrying a six year old girl ... (Have you ever read Bukowski's "The Fiend"?)

Can I just add that I certainly do not consider myself to be an imbecile; I just don't see where you get that from. The issue of Islamic terrorism is a deeply troubling one, and yes, like many people I have cracked open the books, and done a little research on the subject - does this signify an abnormally low intelligence? I think not. I may draw different conclusions from you sometimes, but that's just the way of the world. And that's a good thing. I'm thinking here of one of John Stuart Mill's arguments for freedom of speech, the "partially true" argument put forward in "On Liberty" which claims that "since the general or prevailing opinion on any subject is rarely or never the whole truth, it is only by the collision of adverse opinions that the remainder of the truth has any chance of being supplied." (Mill, On Liberty, Penguin Classics p. 116.)

I enjoy participating in this kind of thread not because I think I'm right and I know more than anyone else (hardly!) but because I know that other people will bring their own knowledge of the subject to the table, and I might find out something that I didn't know before. John Stuart Mill was a very clever fellow!

Finally I will bring up "The Great Siege" again and say that when I was travelling to Malta last year I read up on the island's history before I went. I don't know if you've ever seen the movie "The Malta Story" but that is pretty accurate. "Operation Pedestal" was a last ditch effort by the Allied forces to re-supply Malta, and although the sailors on that convoy knew that the Germans would try to sink them, still they set sail (from the West coast of my own country). Hardly any of them made it through, but enough of them did to save Malta from starvation. Having endured one "great siege" already, there was no way the Maltese (or the Brits!) were going to give in to the Nazis. The island of Malta was actually awarded the George Cross for bravery in the face of the enemy. During the first "great siege" in 1565 they showed similar pluck in the face of an overwhelming military force - the Islamic forces assembled by Sulieman the Magnificent. Slavery, torture, the desecration of corpses - these were to be expected if any of the Knights fell into Islamic hands - alive or dead. Again I would have to recommend "Empires of the Sea" by Roger Crowley, if you like reading popular/accessible history books. It's a fantastic read - and something of an eye-opener too.

[Angel17TS]

Im biting my tongue for now. Ill go back and read all the posts, haven't done that yet. Then I'll comment.

For now I just say one this: What you have seen on Youtube is one video. The western media will not show the things I see everyday. This morning I saw a man, holding a baby who has clearly been dead for over a week. He wont let it go because his wife and other kids are dead.

Two aid workers go to help a man laying in the street dieing. A sniper, hits the dieing man and the aid worker. The workers run for a van, and take off leaving the dead man.

Another man sits next to his 2 kids, both dead, one about 8, the other maybe 4. Both have what are obvious to be bullet wounds maybe from a sniper, bullseye shots in the forehead, the other in the heart.

[Niccolo]

Angel17TS

Hi,

Did you watch the video at the top of the thread? What did you make of it?

And I take it by "see every day" you mean on TV? (Since you are apparently in the UAE, so unless you have a fantastically powerful pair of binoculars ... ;-) )

[needsum]

Hamas, once a religiously inspired terrorist organization, is now also an elected political party. Palestinian elections are coming up again soon. Could it be that Hamas’s renewed provocation of Israel’s wrath is a political ploy to stir up hatred for Israel and votes for the party?

This morning NPR aired a brief discussion touching on the military definition of the phrase “acceptable civilian losses.” It seems the losses are acceptable if their sum doesn’t outweigh the benefits of military action. Which accountants are to be hired to make the assessment wasn’t mentioned. I’m sure military and political minds can easily weigh civilian deaths against troop advancements and other sorts of strategic or political gains. Hamas, for example, fires their mortars from within Palestinian schools and hospitals gambling that the children and patients will function as a kind of repellant against retaliation. Not only is this odious practice itself repellant, it’s paradoxical. By Hamas’s own reckoning, a school full of Palestinian children is worth only the one or two Israeli’s their entire mortar barrage is likely to injure. Of course Israel is inclined to agree with such an assessment and take out the school. Big tit for little tat has been Israel’s modus operandi for decades. It’s predicable.

Personally, I don’t think Israel has a right to exist and neither does Palestine nor Iran nor any other religious form of government. Israeli’s and Palestinians living together with equal citizenship under a secular government would be another story. If Israel could transform itself into a modern, 21st century, secular government and grant equal citizenship and uniform rights to Israeli’s and Palestinians alike, then it might be able to establish its right to exist in the Middle East.

Very very well put Trish. Of course we all know that its a BIG "if", but nonetheless, what you said is what is needed in the world. We can't base government and law on religion--it soooo obviously doesn't work and has been proven time and time again.

[fred41]

Personally, I don’t think Israel has a right to exist and neither does Palestine nor Iran nor any other religious form of government. Israeli’s and Palestinians living together with equal citizenship under a secular government would be another story. If Israel could transform itself into a modern, 21st century, secular government and grant equal citizenship and uniform rights to Israeli’s and Palestinians alike, then it might be able to establish its right to exist in the Middle East.

A completely secular government..in the Middle east??? Well..if they could achieve that , then they'd be one of.......hmm..lets see...well there's ..no...maybe..no..not them either..Okay..that would pretty much make them the ONLY one. At least they're the closest thing you have to a modern democratic society.

They're always gonna be the ONLY one of something anyway. In the world you have tons of Islamic gov'ts , Christian gov'ts (usually secular)..why NOT have ONE mostly Jewish state...it's not like you're gonna live there anytime soon...can't they have their one?

[fred41]

Very very well put Trish. Of course we all know that its a BIG "if", but nonetheless, what you said is what is needed in the world. We can't base government and law on religion--it soooo obviously doesn't work and has been proven time and time again.

I don't know what you mean by "we"...we're not a global government yet.If the overly predominant population of a country is one religion..your not going to have a completerly secular government. Even if you do - that would make it secular in name only. That's just simple logic.

I would settle for governments with secular laws. You're never going to enter the modern age if you base your laws and punishments on the stone age..(or on the medieval drivel written in most "holy books")

[trish]

fred suggests:
They're always gonna be the ONLY one of something anyway. In the world you have tons of Islamic gov'ts , Christian gov'ts (usually secular)..why NOT have ONE mostly Jewish state...it's not like you're gonna live there anytime soon...can't they have their one?

Sure why not? It's not like it's costing anyone their lives or anything, right?
I'm not sure what you mean though when you write "Christian gov'ts (usually secular)". Do you mean a nation peopled largely by Christians but with a form of government that treats people of all religious faiths (or lack of religious faith[]) as equal citizens, and endeavors to recognize no particular faith as privileged under the law? When you ask, "...why NOT have ONE mostly Jewish state?" do you mean a nation with a predominate[ly] Jewish population but w[ith] a government that extends equal citizenship rights to people [of] all religious faiths? If so, I think we agree, there can be one of those. You do realize, as Mandy points out, such a thing does not currently exist.

[edited for spelling and grammar]

[tsmandy]

You seem quite well read Mandy, and reasonably up to speed on history and so forth, so I wonder if you have read any of the books I mentioned in my previous post? As for "equating Islam with terrorism", that's something of a straw man, surely? I wouldn't argue that they are one and the same, equal to one another, inside and out. It's more complex than that. However one could certainly argue that throughout history Islam has tried to bring the House of War under Islamic rule, I mean the facts speak for themselves there.

Sure. So has Catholicism and Protestantism. Should we even discuss the barbarisms that were committed in the name of sanctifying lands in the name of Christ? Cutting off the hands of Arawak Indians for failing to find gold for the church? Should we talk about the inquisition? The witch trials? Manifest destiny? Colonialism? Slavery? All done in the name of Christ..Give me a fucking break. If its a comparison of religions, certainly the violence and callousness of Christianity compares when it comes to sheer brutality.

I understand that post 9/11 there has been a strong push amongst the liberal intelligentsia in the US and Europe to paint radical Islam as something that is unique and separate from all other forms of radical religion and totalitarian belief, and not connected in any way to the pervasive injustice which its adherents live with; quite convenient since the old bogeyman of communism had collapsed and something was needed to justify insane military budgets and bellicose foreign policies.

So on the right you had plain old racism and ignorance, and on the left you had whiney little shits like Christopher Hitchens screaming about the dangers of Islam. Right around that time I had a number of friends, many who were Jews, who spent a considerable amount of time working as human rights observers in the occupied territories, and what they reported was vastly different from what the media was reporting. First hand accounts all seemed to say the same thing; as hopes and dreams of a viable Palestinian state, and a semblance of democracy dissapeared people clung to fundamentalist religion as an answer, just as they have clung to fundamentalist religion or totalitarian leaders in the past. If you are raised in a prison camp with no hope of a normal life, no expectation of being able to support a family, raise kids (who don't get maimed or murdered simply for living) and do all the other things that in essence define being human, you tend to go off the deep end with religion. Regardless all my friends had the same story upon their return, one of friendship and hospitality from their Palestinian contacts (because hospitality is an important part of Palestinian life) and one of intense sadness at the growing hopelessness that existed in the younger generations.

In Palestine that religion happens to be Islam, but I think it is more a show of historical blindness and internalized racism for one to scream about the dangers of Islam while ignoring the wackos in the US and Europe who would happily turn our country into a totalitarian religious state, and who pray and yearn for the apocalypse with their every passing breath. Is radical Islam as an ideology any worse than millenarian evangelicalism and its predication on Christain Zionism? Doubtful.

But sure, you demonize 4 million Palestinians based on their religion and ignore the horrifying injustices and violence being forced upon them by the Israeli state with US weaponry. It's their religion, not the fact that they were forcefully expelled from their homes, locked in prison camps, and repeatedly tortured and abused for the past 60 years....No way, its just their crazy religion, because those crazy Arabs don't share our enlightened way of thinking. Why do you think I refer to that line of thinking as imbecilic? Because without a heavy stream of indoctrination any adult, and certainly any child could easily see that as racist drivel.

[deepthroater]

Sorry if this has been pointed out already, I've only read the first 4 pages and didn't want to filter through the rest.

The video posted to start this thread has nothing to do with the current conflict at all, it wasn't even the result of an IDF attack or strike.

The explosion was caused by Hamas during a parade in Gaza in 2005, when their own explosives accidently detonated!

[tiramisu]

Why Israel is killing everybody???!! why why why

[needsum]

Very very well put Trish. Of course we all know that its a BIG "if", but nonetheless, what you said is what is needed in the world. We can't base government and law on religion--it soooo obviously doesn't work and has been proven time and time again.

I don't know what you mean by "we"...we're not a global government yet.If the overly predominant population of a country is one religion..your not going to have a completerly secular government. Even if you do - that would make it secular in name only. That's just simple logic.

I would settle for governments with secular laws. You're never going to enter the modern age if you base your laws and punishments on the stone age..(or on the medieval drivel written in most "holy books")

I think you just reinstated my point. All I was trying to say is that religion needs to stay out of politics, regardless of the country you're in. I'm not trying to make a statement for a world government. Just solidifying my position that religion and politics together tend to do nothing more than cause the shit that this topic is covering.

[worldbro]

Yeah the conflict is getting bad, I saw this one video where this young man was handcuffed on the ground and then he was executed by the government!

Oh shit my bad; it wasnt a video of Gaza, it was America!

[hippifried]

Kick 'em all out. When children refuse to play nice, you take away the toy. There is no kind of adult thinking going on in Palisraelistine. They want to act like brats, treat 'em like brats. This joint tantrum has been going on throughout recorded history, it's disrupting the entire world, & it's long past time to stick them in the corner.

[El Nino]

Yeah the conflict is getting bad, I saw this one video where this young man was handcuffed on the ground and then he was executed by the government!

Oh shit my bad; it wasnt a video of Gaza, it was America!

True Dat, homie

[fred41]

I'm not sure what you mean though when you write "Christian gov'ts (usually secular)".
[edited for spelling and grammar]

I've had some answers to this..and because I think you already know what some of those answers are ..and you probably are already prepared to argue otherwise..and since that could be a thread on it's own..i'm gonna have to cop-out on this one.. :)




When you ask, "...why NOT have ONE mostly Jewish state?" do you mean a nation with a predominate[ly] Jewish population but w[ith] a government that extends equal citizenship rights to people [of] all religious faiths? If so, I think we agree, there can be one of those. You do realize, as Mandy points out, such a thing does not currently exist.
[edited for spelling and grammar]

If you believe none of those countries already exist and that, in fact - they are all secular governments- then it would seem to me that there are no other secular governments that are comprised of the Jewish faith (all other major faiths seem mostly represented).Again..why not let Israel have theirs....why would they then have to be represented by a non-secular government..when according to you- none of the other existing governments in the world are non-secular. That would mean that they would have to be held to a higher standard than any other country, just to have a right to exist. Sure, it's costing lives...but it cost lives to create almost all of the other nations of the world also.

[trish]

Sorry if I was unclear Fred. I didn't say none of those countries exist. I said the one that's predominately Jewish and grants equal citizenship rights under the law to persons of all faith does not exist; i.e. Israel is not such a nation.

[yosi]

have you ever heard about a palestinian terrorist , who killed a mother and her two 8 and 5 old kids in her bed while she tried to protect them?

you probably never heard of it , why? the answer smells like..........oil.

I know it did happen because my ex wife was next door with MY 2 kids, they were very lucky to stay alive , lucky me.

I am also against loss of life , innocent life , so instead of saying what is wrong , try to give a practical solution.

try not to forget that for them suicide bombing , killing as many non muslims as possible , even by flying airplanes on tall buildings, are promised a place in heaven for doing it , with 100 young female virgins....

did you ever ask yourself why all the arab countries with billions of oil $ never help their poor palestinians brothers?

thank god that you are so far away from these radical muslims..........oops , not anymore after the 9/11

[ted naves]

Well , those of you that believe that Obama will fix said problems that coincide with the conflict between Isreal and Palistine, wait until you see results. Don't just start saying that he will fix them.

Change is great, when it happens.

[fred41]

Sorry if I was unclear Fred. I didn't say none of those countries exist. I said the one that's predominately Jewish and grants equal citizenship rights under the law to persons of all faith does not exist; i.e. Israel is not such a nation.

Okay.I understand now...I thought you were going into another direction there.. :wink:

[yosi]

Hamas terrorists kill innocent 'Palestinians' in Gaza.........
see the big celebration on the 9/11....

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=a5e_1231434273

[Niccolo]

I've said my piece, and I'll go back to making porn. Continue on with the next 100 posts calling Arabs ragheads, and equating Islam with terrorism....Fucking imbeciles. - Mandy

You seem quite well read Mandy, and reasonably up to speed on history and so forth, so I wonder if you have read any of the books I mentioned in my previous post? As for "equating Islam with terrorism", that's something of a straw man, surely? I wouldn't argue that they are one and the same, equal to one another, inside and out. It's more complex than that. However one could certainly argue that throughout history Islam has tried to bring the House of War under Islamic rule, I mean the facts speak for themselves there. And if one considers the principle of abrogation (later passages in the Koran override any contradictory passages that were written earlier), then one can see how Ayaan Hirsi Ali reached her conclusion, post 9/11, that when the bin Ladens and Mohammad Attas of the world say they are acting in accordance with Islamic teachings, they are telling the truth. Because the Islamic prophet certainly became more of a warlord, and committed some rather nasty acts, later on in his career. And there's always the quaint little story of his marrying a six year old girl ... (Have you ever read Bukowski's "The Fiend"?)

Can I just add that I certainly do not consider myself to be an imbecile; I just don't see where you get that from. The issue of Islamic terrorism is a deeply troubling one, and yes, like many people I have cracked open the books, and done a little research on the subject - does this signify an abnormally low intelligence? I think not. I may draw different conclusions from you sometimes, but that's just the way of the world. And that's a good thing. I'm thinking here of one of John Stuart Mill's arguments for freedom of speech, the "partially true" argument put forward in "On Liberty" which claims that "since the general or prevailing opinion on any subject is rarely or never the whole truth, it is only by the collision of adverse opinions that the remainder of the truth has any chance of being supplied." (Mill, On Liberty, Penguin Classics p. 116.)

I enjoy participating in this kind of thread not because I think I'm right and I know more than anyone else (hardly!) but because I know that other people will bring their own knowledge of the subject to the table, and I might find out something that I didn't know before. John Stuart Mill was a very clever fellow!

Finally I will bring up "The Great Siege" again and say that when I was travelling to Malta last year I read up on the island's history before I went. I don't know if you've ever seen the movie "The Malta Story" but that is pretty accurate. "Operation Pedestal" was a last ditch effort by the Allied forces to re-supply Malta, and although the sailors on that convoy knew that the Germans would try to sink them, still they set sail (from the West coast of my own country). Hardly any of them made it through, but enough of them did to save Malta from starvation. Having endured one "great siege" already, there was no way the Maltese (or the Brits!) were going to give in to the Nazis. The island of Malta was actually awarded the George Cross for bravery in the face of the enemy. During the first "great siege" in 1565 they showed similar pluck in the face of an overwhelming military force - the Islamic forces assembled by Sulieman the Magnificent. Slavery, torture, the desecration of corpses - these were to be expected if any of the Knights fell into Islamic hands - alive or dead. Again I would have to recommend "Empires of the Sea" by Roger Crowley, if you like reading popular/accessible history books. It's a fantastic read - and something of an eye-opener too.


Sure. So has Catholicism and Protestantism. Should we even discuss the barbarisms that were committed in the name of sanctifying lands in the name of Christ? Cutting off the hands of Arawak Indians for failing to find gold for the church? Should we talk about the inquisition? The witch trials? Manifest destiny? Colonialism? Slavery? All done in the name of Christ..Give me a fucking break. If its a comparison of religions, certainly the violence and callousness of Christianity compares when it comes to sheer brutality. - Mandy


But sure, you demonize 4 million Palestinians based on their religion and ignore the horrifying injustices and violence being forced upon them by the Israeli state with US weaponry. It's their religion, not the fact that they were forcefully expelled from their homes, locked in prison camps, and repeatedly tortured and abused for the past 60 years....No way, its just their crazy religion, because those crazy Arabs don't share our enlightened way of thinking. Why do you think I refer to that line of thinking as imbecilic? Because without a heavy stream of indoctrination any adult, and certainly any child could easily see that as racist drivel. - Mandy


I'm not sure why you think I have advanced the notion that "its a comparison of religions." I don't think I've put forward that idea, and I'm not too sure why current events should be thought of in that way. Okay, it would be interesting to talk about the many horrible acts that have been committed in the name of other religions throughout history (Have you ever read Ludovic Kennedy's "All In The Mind: A Farewell to God (http://www.amazon.com/All-Mind-Farewell-Ludovic-Kennedy/dp/0340680636)"? He's excellent on this topic.) and I'll happily do so. But why bring that up here - unless one is arguing that horrible things have been done in the name of other religions, things which compare (to use your term) to those done in the name of Islam. Well, okay then. Islam's just as bad as Christianity ever was. You'll get no argument from me on that score. The question is: is it any worse - are such things still happening today in the name of Islam?

We appear to agree then, that Islamic forces have, throughout history, tried to bring dar al-harb - the House of War - under Islamic rule, and that some horrific things have been done in the name of Islam. Can I just add here that I do not consider myself to have been "indoctrinated" in any way, nor do I think that I have "demonized" anyone. As I said earlier, I've become interested in Islam in recent years, so I've gone to the trouble of reading a little bit about that ideology (Islam is obviously not a race, and any accusations of racism fall flat for this reason). I mentioned the attempt by Sulieman the Magnificent to take Malta, and from there, invade mainland Europe. I mentioned the slavery practiced by Muslim rulers and pirates which, let me tell you, matches anything in the history of the world for brutality and inhumanity. (See Giles Milton's "White Gold." It's just mind-blowing!) There is much more that could be said on this topic, obviously - it's just as interesting as the witch trials - which occurred in my country too btw. Oh aye! (See link.) (http://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryUK/Scotland-History/PittenweemWitchTrials.htm)

I'm interested in the connection (if there is one) between Islamic teachings and the use of "terrorism" such as suicide attacks in order to achieve certain goals - and I am interested in what those goals might be, and to what extent (if any) they tie in with Islamic teachings. I think this is a reasonable (and understandable) position to take. I certainly don't see how being interested in what's happening in the world around you, being quite well-read (I'll blow my trumpet a little bit here) and actually visiting some of the historical sites one has read about in order to help put what you've read in context equates (to use your term) to indoctrination or imbecility. (I had to throw that in there. :wink: )

There many be several necessary conditions for one's becoming a suicide bomber/terrorist. There have been enough well-off, well-educated people who have done so now, to make any simple connection between poverty or lack of education and terrorism highly unlikely. Nevertheless, these may be a factor of some kind, in some situations. I wouldn't shut the door on that notion altogether. Maybe, as you suggested, poverty and lack of education or opportunity plays a part in some people "going off the deep end" for Islam. I refer again to Ayaan Hirsi Ali (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/profiles/ayaan-hirsi-ali-my-life-under-a-fatwa-760666.html), who in her book "Infidel" says that after Sept. 11th she looked at what Islam actually taught and she found that when Mohammad Atta (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammed_Atta) and the likes of Osama bin Laden or Ayman al-Zawahiri (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayman_al-Zawahiri) say they are acting in accordance with Islamic teachings, they are telling the truth. (Atta was a blatant misogynist btw: see Jane Corbin's "The Base.") (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7746029.stm)

As everyone knows, Ayaan Hirsi Ali is living under the threat of death, because she has spoken out against Islam. She is not the only person who has been persecuted for doing so: Robert Redeker (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article655333.ece), Oriana Fallaci (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4576663.stm), Michel Houllebecq (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/arts/2209121.stm), Channel 4 (http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/media/article2223340.ece), there's quite a list. We all know that Theo van Gogh was murdered by a religious fanatic for criticising Islam - and have you seen what Mohammad B has said since? He's definitely (to use your phrase) gone off the deep end with his religion. And his religion, the same as everyone else who would like to see Ayaan Hirsi Ali lying in the street with a knife in her, is ... well, we all know what his religion is, don't we?

I was at work one day not long ago and one of my colleagues ran into the room and said that "they" had bombed Glasgow Airport, "they" had driven a jeep filled with gas bottles and nails into the front door and tried to blow it up. No one needed to ask who "they" were. We all knew.


When you have things like that happening, together with the many other acts of Islamic terrorism that have occurred in Europe post-9/11, I think it is perfectly reasonable for any citizen of a Western European country to wonder what is happening, and to try to find out.

And although there have been many Islamic terrorist attacks throughout Europe, and throughout the world too, since that one incident in America seven years ago, I wonder how people would think if they had to endure such terrorist attacks every day. I try to imagine that .. every day ... then I think what it would be like to live in Israel.

[ef9hatchman]

I've said my piece, and I'll go back to making porn. Continue on with the next 100 posts calling Arabs ragheads, and equating Islam with terrorism....Fucking imbeciles. - Mandy

You seem quite well read Mandy, and reasonably up to speed on history and so forth, so I wonder if you have read any of the books I mentioned in my previous post? As for "equating Islam with terrorism", that's something of a straw man, surely? I wouldn't argue that they are one and the same, equal to one another, inside and out. It's more complex than that. However one could certainly argue that throughout history Islam has tried to bring the House of War under Islamic rule, I mean the facts speak for themselves there. And if one considers the principle of abrogation (later passages in the Koran override any contradictory passages that were written earlier), then one can see how Ayaan Hirsi Ali reached her conclusion, post 9/11, that when the bin Ladens and Mohammad Attas of the world say they are acting in accordance with Islamic teachings, they are telling the truth. Because the Islamic prophet certainly became more of a warlord, and committed some rather nasty acts, later on in his career. And there's always the quaint little story of his marrying a six year old girl ... (Have you ever read Bukowski's "The Fiend"?)

Can I just add that I certainly do not consider myself to be an imbecile; I just don't see where you get that from. The issue of Islamic terrorism is a deeply troubling one, and yes, like many people I have cracked open the books, and done a little research on the subject - does this signify an abnormally low intelligence? I think not. I may draw different conclusions from you sometimes, but that's just the way of the world. And that's a good thing. I'm thinking here of one of John Stuart Mill's arguments for freedom of speech, the "partially true" argument put forward in "On Liberty" which claims that "since the general or prevailing opinion on any subject is rarely or never the whole truth, it is only by the collision of adverse opinions that the remainder of the truth has any chance of being supplied." (Mill, On Liberty, Penguin Classics p. 116.)

I enjoy participating in this kind of thread not because I think I'm right and I know more than anyone else (hardly!) but because I know that other people will bring their own knowledge of the subject to the table, and I might find out something that I didn't know before. John Stuart Mill was a very clever fellow!

Finally I will bring up "The Great Siege" again and say that when I was travelling to Malta last year I read up on the island's history before I went. I don't know if you've ever seen the movie "The Malta Story" but that is pretty accurate. "Operation Pedestal" was a last ditch effort by the Allied forces to re-supply Malta, and although the sailors on that convoy knew that the Germans would try to sink them, still they set sail (from the West coast of my own country). Hardly any of them made it through, but enough of them did to save Malta from starvation. Having endured one "great siege" already, there was no way the Maltese (or the Brits!) were going to give in to the Nazis. The island of Malta was actually awarded the George Cross for bravery in the face of the enemy. During the first "great siege" in 1565 they showed similar pluck in the face of an overwhelming military force - the Islamic forces assembled by Sulieman the Magnificent. Slavery, torture, the desecration of corpses - these were to be expected if any of the Knights fell into Islamic hands - alive or dead. Again I would have to recommend "Empires of the Sea" by Roger Crowley, if you like reading popular/accessible history books. It's a fantastic read - and something of an eye-opener too.


Sure. So has Catholicism and Protestantism. Should we even discuss the barbarisms that were committed in the name of sanctifying lands in the name of Christ? Cutting off the hands of Arawak Indians for failing to find gold for the church? Should we talk about the inquisition? The witch trials? Manifest destiny? Colonialism? Slavery? All done in the name of Christ..Give me a fucking break. If its a comparison of religions, certainly the violence and callousness of Christianity compares when it comes to sheer brutality. - Mandy


But sure, you demonize 4 million Palestinians based on their religion and ignore the horrifying injustices and violence being forced upon them by the Israeli state with US weaponry. It's their religion, not the fact that they were forcefully expelled from their homes, locked in prison camps, and repeatedly tortured and abused for the past 60 years....No way, its just their crazy religion, because those crazy Arabs don't share our enlightened way of thinking. Why do you think I refer to that line of thinking as imbecilic? Because without a heavy stream of indoctrination any adult, and certainly any child could easily see that as racist drivel. - Mandy


I'm not sure why you think I have advanced the notion that "its a comparison of religions." I don't think I've put forward that idea, and I'm not too sure why current events should be thought of in that context. Okay, it would be interesting to talk about the many horrible acts that have been committed in the name of other religions throughout history (Have you ever read Ludovic Kennedy's "All In The Mind: A Farewell to God (http://www.amazon.com/All-Mind-Farewell-Ludovic-Kennedy/dp/0340680636)"? He's excellent on this topic.) and I'll happily do so. But why bring that up here - unless one is arguing that horrible things have been done in the name of other religions, things which compare (to use your term) to those done in the name of Islam. Well, okay then. Islam's just as bad as Christianity ever was. You'll get no argument from me on that score.

So moving on, we can agree that Islamic forces have, throughout history, tried to bring dar al-harb - the House of War - under Islamic rule, and that some horrific things have been done in the name of Islam. Can I just add that I do not consider myself "indoctrinated" in any way, nor do I think that I have "demonized" anyone. As I said earlier, I've become interested in Islam in recent years, so I have gone to the trouble of reading a little bit about that ideology (Islam is obviously not a race, and any accusations of racism fall flat for this reason). I mentioned the attempt by Sulieman the Magnificent to take Malta, and from there, invade mainland Europe. I mentioned the slavery practiced by Muslim rulers and pirates which, let me tell you, matches anything in the history of the world for brutality and inhumanity. (See Giles Milton's "White Gold." It's just mind-blowing!) There is much more that could be said on this topic, obviously - it's just as interesting as the witch trials - which occurred in my country too btw. Oh aye! (See link.) (http://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryUK/Scotland-History/PittenweemWitchTrials.htm)

I'm interested in the connection (if there is one) between Islamic teachings and the use of "terrorism" such as suicide attacks in order to achieve certain goals - and I am interested in what those goals might be, and to what extent (if any) they tie in with Islamic teachings. I think this is a reasonable (and understandable) position to take. I certainly don't see how being interested in what's happening in the world around you, being quite well-read (I'll blow my trumpet a little bit here) and actually visiting some of the historical sites one has read about in order to help put what you've read in context equates (to use your term) to indoctrination or imbecility. (I had to throw that in there. :wink: ) What I've been thinking about recently is that there many be several necessary conditions for one's becoming a suicide bomber/terrorist. There have been enough well-off, well-educated people who have done so now, to make any simple connection between poverty or lack of education and terrorism highly unlikely. Nevertheless, it may be a factor of some kind, in some situations. I wouldn't shut the door on those ideas altogether. Maybe, as you suggested, it plays a part in one's "going off the deep end" for Islam. I refer again to Ayaan Hirsi Ali (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/profiles/ayaan-hirsi-ali-my-life-under-a-fatwa-760666.html), who in here book "Infidel" says that after Sept. 11th she looked at what Islam actually taught and she found that when Mohammad Atta (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammed_Atta) and the likes of Osama bin Laden or Ayman al-Zawahiri (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayman_al-Zawahiri) say they are acting in accordance with Islamic teachings, they are telling the truth. (Atta was a blatant misogynist btw: see Jane Corbin's "The Base.") (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7746029.stm)

As everyone knows, Ayaan Hirsi Ali is living under the threat of death, because she has spoken out against Islam. She is not the only person who has been persecuted for doing so: Robert Redeker (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article655333.ece), Oriana Fallaci (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4576663.stm), Michel Houllebecq (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/arts/2209121.stm), Channel 4 (http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/media/article2223340.ece), there's quite a list. We all know that Theo van Gogh was murdered by a religious fanatic for criticising Islam - and have you seen what Mohammad B has said since? He's definitely (to use your phrase) gone off the deep end with his religion. His religion, naturally, the same as everyone else who would like to see Ayaan Hirsi Ali lying in the street with a knife in her, is ... well, we all know what his religion is, don't we?

I was at work on day not long ago and one of my colleagues ran into the room and said that "they" had bombed Glasgow Airport, "they" had driven a jeep filled with gas bottles and nails into the front door and tried to blow it up. No one needed to ask who "they" were. We all knew.


When you have things like that happening, together with the many acts of Islamic terrorism that have occurred in Europe post-9/11, I think it is perfectly reasonable for any citizen of a Western European country to wonder what is happening, and to try to find out.

And although there have been many Islamic terrorist attacks throughout Europe, and throughout the world too, since that one incident in America seven years ago, I wonder how people would think if they had to endure such terrorist attacks every day. I try to imagine that .. every day ... then I think what it would be like to live in Israel.
Reread this CLUSTERFUCK I think you embarrassed yourself.

[Niccolo]

Another informative and helpful post from what's-his-name there.

[tsmandy]

I'm not sure why you think I have advanced the notion that "its a comparison of religions." I don't think I've put forward that idea, and I'm not too sure why current events should be thought of in that context. Okay, it would be interesting to talk about the many horrible acts that have been committed in the name of other religions throughout history (Have you ever read Ludovic Kennedy's "All In The Mind: A Farewell to God (http://www.amazon.com/All-Mind-Farewell-Ludovic-Kennedy/dp/0340680636)"? He's excellent on this topic.) and I'll happily do so. But why bring that up here - unless one is arguing that horrible things have been done in the name of other religions, things which compare (to use your term) to those done in the name of Islam. Well, okay then. Islam's just as bad as Christianity ever was. You'll get no argument from me on that score. The question is: is it any worse? Are such things still happening today in the name of Islam?

Moving on, we can agree that Islamic forces have, throughout history, tried to bring dar al-harb - the House of War - under Islamic rule, and that some horrific things have been done in the name of Islam. Can I just add that I do not consider myself "indoctrinated" in any way, nor do I think that I have "demonized" anyone. As I said earlier, I've become interested in Islam in recent years, so I have gone to the trouble of reading a little bit about that ideology (Islam is obviously not a race, and any accusations of racism fall flat for this reason). I mentioned the attempt by Sulieman the Magnificent to take Malta, and from there, invade mainland Europe. I mentioned the slavery practiced by Muslim rulers and pirates which, let me tell you, matches anything in the history of the world for brutality and inhumanity. (See Giles Milton's "White Gold." It's just mind-blowing!) There is much more that could be said on this topic, obviously - it's just as interesting as the witch trials - which occurred in my country too btw. Oh aye! (See link.) (http://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryUK/Scotland-History/PittenweemWitchTrials.htm)

I'm interested in the connection (if there is one) between Islamic teachings and the use of "terrorism" such as suicide attacks in order to achieve certain goals - and I am interested in what those goals might be, and to what extent (if any) they tie in with Islamic teachings. I think this is a reasonable (and understandable) position to take. I certainly don't see how being interested in what's happening in the world around you, being quite well-read (I'll blow my trumpet a little bit here) and actually visiting some of the historical sites one has read about in order to help put what you've read in context equates (to use your term) to indoctrination or imbecility. (I had to throw that in there. :wink: )

There many be several necessary conditions for one's becoming a suicide bomber/terrorist. There have been enough well-off, well-educated people who have done so now, to make any simple connection between poverty or lack of education and terrorism highly unlikely. Nevertheless, these may be a factor of some kind, in some situations. I wouldn't shut the door on that notion altogether. Maybe, as you suggested, poverty and lack of education or opportunity plays a part in some people "going off the deep end" for Islam. I refer again to Ayaan Hirsi Ali (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/profiles/ayaan-hirsi-ali-my-life-under-a-fatwa-760666.html), who in here book "Infidel" says that after Sept. 11th she looked at what Islam actually taught and she found that when Mohammad Atta (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammed_Atta) and the likes of Osama bin Laden or Ayman al-Zawahiri (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayman_al-Zawahiri) say they are acting in accordance with Islamic teachings, they are telling the truth. (Atta was a blatant misogynist btw: see Jane Corbin's "The Base.") (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7746029.stm)

As everyone knows, Ayaan Hirsi Ali is living under the threat of death, because she has spoken out against Islam. She is not the only person who has been persecuted for doing so: Robert Redeker (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article655333.ece), Oriana Fallaci (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4576663.stm), Michel Houllebecq (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/arts/2209121.stm), Channel 4 (http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/media/article2223340.ece), there's quite a list. We all know that Theo van Gogh was murdered by a religious fanatic for criticising Islam - and have you seen what Mohammad B has said since? He's definitely (to use your phrase) gone off the deep end with his religion. And his religion, the same as everyone else who would like to see Ayaan Hirsi Ali lying in the street with a knife in her, is ... well, we all know what his religion is, don't we?

I was at work on day not long ago and one of my colleagues ran into the room and said that "they" had bombed Glasgow Airport, "they" had driven a jeep filled with gas bottles and nails into the front door and tried to blow it up. No one needed to ask who "they" were. We all knew.


When you have things like that happening, together with the many other acts of Islamic terrorism that have occurred in Europe post-9/11, I think it is perfectly reasonable for any citizen of a Western European country to wonder what is happening, and to try to find out.

And although there have been many Islamic terrorist attacks throughout Europe, and throughout the world too, since that one incident in America seven years ago, I wonder how people would think if they had to endure such terrorist attacks every day. I try to imagine that .. every day ... then I think what it would be like to live in Israel.

You focus on minutae and misread the posts that I've written. I don't see the struggle in Israel/Palestine as a religious one, I see it primarily as an anti-colonial struggle. One with settlers, classic racial disparities, and severe human rights violations. And just like other anti-colonial struggles, when a modicum of justice is never achieved for oppressed peoples, the result is religious fanaticism.

As for the term imbecilic, that was used in reference to the racist terminology that was used to describe Palestinian people, and even more so for those who would lump 4 million men women and children all together as terrorists.

If you wish to endlessly show us all how much history and philosophy you've read, thats fine, but perhaps you should just address the brunt of my arguments rather than trying to set up straw arguments. I'm an atheist, I've suffered tremendously at the hands of religious zealots, and I certainly have no wish to defend any religious system. But I think that reducing the conflict in the occupied territories to a religious struggle is deceitful and immoral.

No one has yet to address any of the things I wrote, perhaps because they are not really in dispute, rather it would be easier for people to endlessly talk about the horrors of suicide bombers and the evils of Islam (both of which are certainly many).

[Niccolo]

You focus on minutae and misread the posts that I've written. I don't see the struggle in Israel/Palestine as a religious one, I see it primarily as an anti-colonial struggle. One with settlers, classic racial disparities, and severe human rights violations. And just like other anti-colonial struggles, when a modicum of justice is never achieved for oppressed peoples, the result is religious fanaticism.

As for the term imbecilic, that was used in reference to the racist terminology that was used to describe Palestinian people, and even more so for those who would lump 4 million men women and children all together as terrorists.

If you wish to endlessly show us all how much history and philosophy you've read, thats fine, but perhaps you should just address the brunt of my arguments rather than trying to set up straw arguments. I'm an atheist, I've suffered tremendously at the hands of religious zealots, and I certainly have no wish to defend any religious system. But I think that reducing the conflict in the occupied territories to a religious struggle is deceitful and immoral.

No one has yet to address any of the things I wrote, perhaps because they are not really in dispute, rather it would be easier for people to endlessly talk about the horrors of suicide bombers and the evils of Islam (both of which are certainly many). - mandy

Okay then, that's fair enough, why don't we just set aside the "imbecile" thing as your response to the "raghead" kind of thing that was going on elsewhere in the thread.

For my own part, I deliberately mentioned some of the books I've been reading on this topic to address the comments you made, so far as I was concerned, and also, to see if you had read any of those books, because you do, as I already said, appear to be quite well read, and I just wondered if you might have actually read any of them. You never know - Roger Crowley's one in particular is quite recent, and has had some good reviews. As a matter of fact I saw it on the shelf in my local bookshop yesterday (and thought of you, awww ..)

I'll just respond quickly here to the rest of your post, because I've got to be heading out the door in a minute: I'm thinking again of Mill's argument for freedom of speech: as you say, you and I appear to be coming at this current situation from different angles, and that's fine. As I've said before, that's partly why I enjoy taking part in threads like this: other people bring what they know to the table, and you (hopefully) learn something that you didn't know about before. And (back to Mill) if different people put forward different views, then a larger, usually more complex picture can begin to emerge, and who knows, maybe the truth is out there in that larger, complex picture ... somewhere.

Edit: Got back home again & thought I'd add something to this post. I notice you mentioned earlier that there were loads of Christians who wanted to turn their countries into theocratic states, but I would have to say that isn't an issue so far as European countries are concerned. America I'm not so sure about! (Could one not turn your original argument around, and say that it is folly to scream about the "wackos" in the US who would like to turn your country into a theocracy, while ignoring the very real dangers posed by Islam in the world today?)

I'm not clear about your position on Islam: you agree that if one looks back through history, one will find plenty bad things to be said about Islam, as bad as anything that could be said about Christianity, and you argue that "going off the deep end with religion" leads to people carrying out acts of "religious fanaticism." Or as we tend to say, terrorism. Well, ok then.

Wouldn't it be correct to say "going off the deep end" of Islam? And to talk of "Islamic fanaticism"? After all, the people you are talking about don't become (for example) Buddhists, and like many of the Tibetan monks who have been jailed by the Chinese, try to find compassion for others, no matter what their behaviour is like.

We've all seen plenty examples in recent years of people going off the deep end of Islam. We all know what that can lead to. Again I'll say that there might have been one big terrorist attack in America seven years ago, but there have been many more around the world since, and one can only imagine what it would be like having to deal with terrorist attacks every day.

On one hand then, you seem to be arguing that Islam can be as cruel and evil as any other religion has ever been, and that Israelis have had to deal with people "going off the deep end" of Islam, which leads to "fanatical" Muslims committing terrorist attacks upon Israeli citizens.

On the other you seem terribly reluctant to acknowledge that Islam has anything to do with the whole situation.

Isn't it possible that it just might be a factor here? And how can one say for sure until one looks at what Islam actually teaches? And at what it's followers have said, and done, in the past?

[Niccolo]

Hamas terrorists kill innocent 'Palestinians' in Gaza.........
see the big celebration on the 9/11....

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=a5e_1231434273

That's an interesting video, yosi.

Mandy, you spoke about how one's opportunities are reduced in Hamas controlled territory, and that this leads to people going off the deep end with Islam. I wonder to what extent Hamas limits the opportunites of the people it "represents"?

I wouldn't just take that video as authoritative, I don't know who made it or anything, although the events seem to be real enough, Israelis certainly wouldn't be shouting out the Takbir as they round up their own citizens. It raises a good question though - if as you say povery and lack of opportunity are necessary conditions for one's going on to become a suicide bomber, then to what extent is Hamas responsible for creating those conditions?

What do you think?

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=a5e_1231434273

[zukkobaby]

If Russia was shooting rockets into Alaska I bet it wouldn't be more than a few hours before we were at war, but if Israel defends itself the antisemites come out of the woodwork.

[Nooksack]

I don't have time to reply to this entire thread, nor am I going to attempt to do so, but I iwll respond to the last post I've read...

Give me a fucking break, zukkobaby. The world is decrying Israeli actions for a number of reasons, chief amongst them being:

1. Israel's heavy-handed retaliation - The Israelis have come out and said that enough is enough and that they are tired of being shot at and bombed by militant factions within Palestine and even Lebanon for the last umpteen years. Israel has responded to rockets with a veritable cornucopia of weaponry in an attempt to "punish" Palestinians for a) supporting Hamas b) continuing to lob rockets into Israel despite the significantly more deadly retaliatory strikes and c) a ground invasion to root out the enemy on an effective level.

2. Israel has not only stopped aid organizations from reaching the imperiled civilians in this conflict, they have cut off supplies and power to a number of clinics and hospitals. Additionally, after they DID set up three-hour ceasefire agreements in order to facilitate care of the injured, they then struck numerous buildings with foreign aid workers inside of them as well as a UN aid convoy.

3. Israel has flat out ignored the UN's most recent call for a cease-fire and some kinda of agreement, truce. They are hard-lining their stance with (what seems reasonable to me) a general view that so long as the enemy keeps attacking, they will do the same. Furthermore, Hamas, while being part of Palestinian governance, is recognized as a terrorist organization by a number of countries and has not only called for the destruction of the Zionist state, but is also would only seem to gain from any concessions that Israel would have to make which is unfortunate...negotiating with terrorists never ends up well.

4. OVERKILL! The Israelis subscribe to the belief that if you wrong them, they will visit that hurt back upon you that you will remember the last time they fucked you up and made you their bitch. A few rockets over the last few months with some suicide bombings (which all violated a cease-fire agreement) has brought them to the brink of flattening everything Palestinian and they WILL pay back the damages visited upon them tenfold.


It's not like Israel is playing with kid gloves, so they're not wholly innocent here. They also aren't wholly guilty as they have shown tremendous restraint up until now and it seems that they've had enough. THAT is why the world is pissed, not because they are retaliating, but HOW they are retaliating

[fred41]

... then I think what it would be like to live in Israel.


here's a recent perspective: http://www.nypost.com/seven/01092009/postopinion/opedcolumnists/in_israel__under_rockets_red_rain_149286.htm

[Niccolo]

People who call Israel's actions "disproportionate" upset me - they just don't have a clue. What would be a proportionate response? For us to shoot unmanned missiles targeted at civilians every day? (NY Post article)

Interesting article, fred. The author made a good point there. I saw an Israeli politician on Sky News last night saying that Hamas is not a nationalist organisation, it is a jihadist organisation. I also read an article by Andrew Bostom, a doctor who started to research Islam and its history after 9/11. (Here's his website.) (http://www.andrewbostom.org/) He quotes a Hamas MP called Yunis al-Astal as saying, "Very soon, Allah willing, Rome will be conquered, just like Constantinople was, as was prophesized by our prophet Muhammad. Today, Rome is the capital of the Catholics, or the Crusader capital, which has declared its hostility to Islam, and has planted the brothers of apes and pigs in Palestine in order to prevent the reawakening of Islam - this capital of theirs [Rome] will be an advanced post for the Islamic conquests, which will spread through Europe in its entirety, and then will turn to the two Americas, and even Eastern Europe. I believe that our children or our grandchildren will inherit our Jihad... " (Source.) (http://www.jewcy.com/post/understanding_islam_islamic_antisemitism)

If what that Israeli politician and Dr. Bostom say is true, then some important questions arise, which ought to be considered: What kind of enemy is Israel facing? What do they want? What are they capable of? Who supports them? Have we in the West ever faced a similar enemy, and if we did, then what measures did we employ in order to defeat them?

It's worth mentioning again that so far, although plenty people attacked kittyKaiti personally for claiming that Muhammad was a warlord, a paedophile, and had committed terrorist acts - not one person has attempted to disprove those assertions. And we all know why - they can't.

Again I'll say that so far as Muslims are concerned, Muhammad is "the ideal man" and they are bound to imitate him if they wish to live what they consider to be a moral life.

Again I'll say that although the earlier parts of the Koran contain some verses apparently promoting tolerance, once Muhammad went to Medina he showed that he had a real bloodthirsty streak, and showed no mercy at all to those who crossed him.

And again, I'll say that the principle of abrogation means that the later verses of the Koran override the earlier verses, meaning that Muslims are bound to follow those verses of the Koran which tell Muhammad's followers to do all kinds of nasty things to nonbelievers. As Muhammad himself did after the [i]Hijra.

I noticed in one of her posts Mandy said that the religion which people were "going off the deep end" of just "happened to be Islam" as if it didn't really matter much if one became a Buddhist or a Muslim, but of course it does matter - it matters a great deal. Just read the holy texts of each of those two religions, and that's painfully clear for anyone to see.

And if Hamas is not just a nationalist organisation but a jihadist organisation, then obviously, that matters too.

It matters a great deal.

[praetor]

:arrow:

[scorpion]

Sorry to say it.. But I am so into the hell of tired of those Abda labbas...

They have been fighting there since?????? Anyone whos remember ???

[russtafa]

it is a glorious thing to rid the world of muslims =they are the cockroaches of humanity.another holy crusade is needed and to scour the middle east clean would be a a great deed in gods eyes praise allah. or our house[world] will be over run with cockroaches

[SXFX]

Didn't Hitler say that about the Jews?

[Angel17TS]

it is a glorious thing to rid the world of muslims =they are the cockroaches of humanity.another holy crusade is needed and to scour the middle east clean would be a a great deed in gods eyes praise allah. or our house[world] will be over run with cockroaches

Unbelievable.

[ef9hatchman]

it is a glorious thing to rid the world of muslims =they are the cockroaches of humanity.another holy crusade is needed and to scour the middle east clean would be a a great deed in gods eyes praise allah. or our house[world] will be over run with cockroaches

Unbelievable.
Hes only dickriding so kaiti will like him.Hes a lowlife.For those who are muslim stay strong. I personally am christian but the hate people of islam tradition take more redicule than SOME jewish people have from WW2

[hippifried]

Whether it's parked on the street, dropped from an airplane, fastened to a rocket, shot from a cannon, or strapped to someone's chest, detonating a bomb in a populated area is an act of terrorism. The motive is always political. The rhetoric surrounding the act is irrelevant. The beliefs or even the identities of the perpetrator & victims are irrelevant. The political objective is irrelevant. The past acts of anyone are irrelevant. Retaliation is just a fancy word for vengeance, & it's self-perpetuating.

This intrafamily feud between the Israelis & Palistinians dates back to the argument over which son of Isaac should rule the cave they were living in & whether the elder son had sold that birthright to the younger for a bowl of soup. 5000+ years of mindless bickering & bloodshed over who Mom liked better. This would be entertaining if these fucks weren't constantly dragging everybody else into their personal squabble.

Just kick 'em out. All of 'em. Bring in the bulldozers & make the whole place uninhabitable. All claims to the land of Abraham are hereby revoked in perpetuity. It doesn't matter where they go, as long as they go. The Sea of Galilee is 1000 ft below sea level & the Jordan River flows downhill to the Dead Sea from there. Sounds like a great place to store the world's toxic & nuclear wastes. Right of return? Only if you like the idea of your kids being born with flippers instead of limbs, & sterile.

Fuck 'em. Fuck 'em all. There's no clean hands anywhere over there, & I'm sick of listening to all the sniveling about which bad guy is the bad guy.

[hippifried]

Didn't Hitler say that about the Jews?
Actually, you can take Hitler's speeches & swap out the interchangeable target, Jews, with Mexicans, blacks, homosexuals, Irish, Italians, Chinese, Japanese, Armenians, Kurds, Muslims, or even Christians from a Roman point of view. Dollars to donuts it's word for word the same speech that Agamemnon used to get the Greeks all worked up against the Trojans or the one that the Pope used to kick off the crusades. It's the same rhetoric used by Bill the Butcher. A hate campaign is a hate campaign through the ages. They're all the same. Just pick your paranoia of the week.

[zukkobaby]

"If Mexican drug violence spills across the U.S. border, Homeland Security officials say they have a contingency plan to help border areas that includes bringing in the military."

I wonder if the US will be just as criticized as Israel... probably not. People are much more interested in being antisemitic than being pro Palestinean.

Hamas just like Hezbollah in Lebanon a few years ago are monsters. Why do you think there are as many civilians casualties as there are. They care nothing for human life, not even their people, so they operate near the schools and hospitals and neighborhoods so those people will be shields. People here criticize without knowing how miserable it is to live in South Israel in range of the rockets, and the attacks were brought on by the addition of newer rockets that have longer range and create more damage, now 1/8 of the population are in the range of the rockets.

[BlackAdder]

I hope the Israelis reduce them to Ash.....years of putting up with the Hamas bullshit would deserve some serious payback I reckon.

[russtafa]

ill ad another thought.every country where muslims are is a dump .every western country where there are there is a high percentage of muslims there is a high crime rate ,riotes,protests and a belief that they can inflict there customs and religion on that country.the jews dont do that. i live in australia and we have indonesia,malaysa right up the top of australia and laying claim to half of australia as a greater islamic state. australian jails are full of lebanese muslim criminals at a dispraportionaly percentage=usualy for crimes of violence,and they love rapeing aussie women "giveing it to them leb style".and no im not a lowlife i dont break the law or harass women and call them sluts becawse they dont wear a burka or insist on the swiming pools being segragated so their women can swim alone

[ef9hatchman]

ill ad another thought.every country where muslims are is a dump .every western country where there are there is a high percentage of muslims there is a high crime rate ,riotes,protests and a belief that they can inflict there customs and religion on that country.the jews dont do that. i live in australia and we have indonesia,malaysa right up the top of australia and laying claim to half of australia as a greater islamic state. australian jails are full of lebanese muslim criminals at a dispraportionaly percentage=usualy for crimes of violence,and they love rapeing aussie women "giveing it to them leb style".and no im not a lowlife i dont break the law or harass women and call them sluts becawse they dont wear a burka or insist on the swiming pools being segragated so their women can swim aloneOnly a lowly educated person like yourself would say such things about a religion BASED on PEACE.
religions are NOT bad. People choose to be bad on their own accord.

[trish]

Actually religions ARE bad: they encourage people to act without question, to believe without reason and to propagate and displace all other ways of knowing. Some religions claim to be based on peace, but every religion known to man has been based on intolerance. It's time the human race grows up and throws away old superstitions.

[kittyKaiti]

it is a glorious thing to rid the world of muslims =they are the cockroaches of humanity.another holy crusade is needed and to scour the middle east clean would be a a great deed in gods eyes praise allah. or our house[world] will be over run with cockroaches

Unbelievable.
Hes only dickriding so kaiti will like him.Hes a lowlife.For those who are muslim stay strong. I personally am christian but the hate people of islam tradition take more redicule than SOME jewish people have from WW2

GTFO you underage piece of shit. You're an idiot, like alot of the people in this thread. I was refraining from posting anymore in this thread but your bullshit needed to be addressed. I never said we should kill all the Muslims. All I fucking said, out of this entire thread, was that I hate all religion and hate Islam the most because it is the only religion that hasn't learned to STFU and leave people the fuck alone.

For the fucktard that called me racist. I never said I hate Arabs. Arab is a race. I have no problem with them. Islam is an ideology. It is not racist to hate an ideology. Otherwise, I'd be racist for hating Communists and totalitarianists. Fuck off you uneducated fuck. Stop bitching because I hate religion.

Religion is a cancer and has been proven evil and the cause of all the world's problems. If you don't see how organized religion is destructive and corrupt, you are an idiot. You are brainwashed. All religion is evil. Islam is just the worst of it, up there with Christianity and Scientology.

[ef9hatchman]

Actually religions ARE bad: they encourage people to act without question, to believe without reason and to propagate and displace all other ways of knowing. Some religions claim to be based on peace, but every religion known to man has been based on intolerance. It's time the human race grows up and throws away old superstitions.Your opinion to say religion is bad, I understand what ya mean about intolerance I think Kaiti took my tolerance over with her Grammar and shitty life beliefs (Hooked on phonics) it works.

Trish, its not just people believing things.Hopefully people have good Morals, and the willpower to think things through correctly.

[russtafa]

im sorry for being lowly educated and not understanding about this so called religion based on peace=in malaysa sodomy is a jail sentence,the woman usually not the man is stoned for adultry and the word jihad is commonly used.i dont dislike other religions=budhist,jewish,hindu ,oh and all those religions seem to be haveing trouble with islam. but its always islam that seems to be suffering predudice from the others. PEACE=BULLSHIT

[kittyKaiti]

Actually religions ARE bad: they encourage people to act without question, to believe without reason and to propagate and displace all other ways of knowing. Some religions claim to be based on peace, but every religion known to man has been based on intolerance. It's time the human race grows up and throws away old superstitions.Your opinion to say religion is bad, I understand what ya mean about intolerance I think Kaiti took my tolerance over with her Grammar and shitty life beliefs (Hooked on phonics) it works.

Trish, its not just people believing things.Hopefully people have good Morals, and the willpower to think things through correctly.

LOL grammar? My grammar is near perfect. I can't say the same about yours though. And shitty life beliefs? What belief is that? That all religion is evil? How is that shitty? You're the one that believes in a magical sky man that created everything and watches the world tear itself a part because of his own bullshit mistake, every so often stepping in to commit genocide. Keep on worshipping your magical terrorist man and keep giving away all your money to the Pope. I hope you feel special.

[trish]

Your opinion to say religion is bad

Not my opinion, it's the conclusion to be drawn from the content found in all the religious texts of the world, and from the actions throughout history (including the present day) of those who practice religion. I hope people have "good morals" too. But belief in a religion is not requisite for being a moral person. Too often religion justifies immoral behaviors and this is precisely because religion is antithetical to reason and thinking "things through". Religion teaches faith, the opposite of reasoned, critical thinking, the opposite of subjecting one's beliefs to openly verifiable tests. Religion is the bane of civilization and if we do not put away our silly superstitious religions they will eventually destroy us.

[El Nino]

Flying Spaghetti monster

[russtafa]

hey sorry about my spelling . i wish muslims didnt exist but then i suppose some other bunch of nasty violent intolerant bastards would replace them

[Angel17TS]

Its very interesting to simply remain silent and let others speak their mind. They often do more damage to themselves and expose their own ignorance, bias or downright stupidity then I ever could by engaging in debate.

So please continue, thankfully the views expressed are not that of most Americans or Westerners I know, regardless of their religions.

"The kindest word in all the world is the unkind word, unsaid."

[curious4TS07]

Too often religion justifies immoral behaviors...

Too often the choice to not follow religion is the justification of immoral behaviors as well. I've met many non-religious people that did something immoral to--more or less--prove the point that God doesn't exist. Not all, of course, but it's one example. My point is just that it goes both ways.


...and this is precisely because religion is antithetical to reason and thinking "things through".

That's not at all true. Religion at its core teaches one to think things through, to be reasonable, because at the opposite end of the spectrum is consequence, good and bad. Good consequence can come from thinking things through and bad consequence can come from not thinking things through. Good consequence can also come from not thinking things through and bad consequence can come from thinking things through too much. But consequence is only found in morality (those who are immoral...for example, serial murderers...serial rapists...do not fear consequence because they subscribe to a different set of morals, or have none at all).


Religion teaches faith, the opposite of reasoned, critical thinking, the opposite of subjecting one's beliefs to openly verifiable tests.

Absolutely. But "love" also teaches faith, the opposite of reasoned, critical thinking. My ex was a manipulative, egotistical, drunk slut with the tendencies of a pedophile. She broke my heart like no woman imaginable. Critical, reasonable thinking should lead me to the decision to not let this new person in my life because based on my own openly verifiable testing (i.e. my relationship history), I have a habit of picking women with the absolute worst possible qualities. I've known this new person for eight years and hadn't seen her in five. I've been in love with her since the moment I met her, but now that we're both grown and have seemingly put away childish things, I'm ready to take what we both acknowledged we never should've let go of in the first place (each other). And I'm ready to do so without the baggage of what any sane, rational person would guard themselves from because I'm going on the faith of what I know about her and what I've always known about her. She is completely unlike any woman I've ever known and she makes me better and I have faith she will continue to make me better. And I, to her.

My point here is just that love teaches faith, but you don't have to believe in religion to believe in love. However, in some ways, love itself is a religion. You submit yourself to the idea of something unseen, something that, to this day, has not really been scientifically proven beyond much more of anything than several theories and mostly unverifiable "tests". We choose believe in it when things are good, when things are bad and everything else in between. I suppose it is then fair to call love a "silly superstition" also, but 'tis one I am okay with believing in if for no other reason than, it makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside. Seriously. :)


Religion is the bane of civilization and if we do not put away our silly superstitious religions they will eventually destroy us.

Religion isn't the bane of civilization. Intolerance and non-compassion toward differing opinions is. That's what has always separated us as a society and that is what will continue to separate us. You'll find intolerance and non-compassion in the religious and non-religious alike.

Please please please do not think I'm trying to tear you down or pick on you. I'm just speaking from my own experiences. Others are more than welcome to disagree, but if I've been disrespectful in anyway, my sincerest apologies as that was not my intention. Also, I apologize for going off topic but I thought the idea of compassion and tolerance was relative to what's not happening in Gaza/Israel.

[Niccolo]

But consequence is only found in morality (those who are immoral...for example, serial murderers...serial rapists...do not fear consequence because they subscribe to a different set of morals, or have none at all). Curious4TS07

I'm not sure what to make of this statement of yours. You seem to be reaching for something, but I don't think you quite got your hands around it. One can certainly think about the consequences of one's actions without being a practicing Christian, that's just beyond question. Perhaps an argument could be made that thinking about the consequences of one's actions is part of what it is to make moral choices?

What is one to think, though, of the many theists who insist that the thought of a deity inflicting punishment on them in the afterlife is what stops people from being serial murderers and serial raptists? As in: if their deity wasn't going to punish them for doing it, thern that's what they would be doing all day and every night?

Whereas you will find many nonbelievers who would never even consider commiting such appalling crimes, and they don't need to have the pants scared off them by an imaginary all-powerful being to live as they do either!

You mentioned that there have been people who have committed immoral acts in order to demonstrate that God does not exist. I'm not sure if I've ever come across any record of people behaving in that way simply to prove that particular point. If you could give some examples of that, I'd be interested to read about it. (If God existed, why would he let them do that?)

You have brought up what's usually called "the problem of evil" (as I'm sure you know) which asks the theist to explain why, if his deity is in fact all powerful and desires what is good, there is so much evil in the world. Not only acts committed by human beings, but also events such as tsunamis, cancer, etc. I've yet to read a decent response to that particular problem.

And I've asked plenty theists over the years. I even engaged my local reverend in a little debate in the local press a while back, and all he had to say is that sometimes we are left with "puzzles and perplexities" as we consider God's work. Which obviously, is not an adequate answer. (Rather, it's an admission that he doesn't have one.)

You also don't address the issue of people committing immoral acts because they believe there is a God, and He wants them to do it. Some terrible crimes have been committed by the most religious of people.

[Niccolo]

Only a lowly educated person like yourself would say such things about a religion BASED on PEACE. People choose to be bad on their own accord. - ef9hatchman


It's worth mentioning again that so far, although plenty people attacked kittyKaiti personally for claiming that Muhammad was a warlord, a paedophile, and had committed terrorist acts - not one person has attempted to disprove those assertions. And we all know why - they can't.

Again I'll say that so far as Muslims are concerned, Muhammad is "the ideal man" and they are bound to imitate him if they wish to live what they consider to be a moral life.

Again I'll say that although the earlier parts of the Koran contain some verses apparently promoting tolerance, once Muhammad went to Medina he showed that he had a real bloodthirsty streak, and showed no mercy at all to those who crossed him.

And again, I'll say that the principle of abrogation means that the later verses of the Koran override the earlier verses, meaning that Muslims are bound to follow those verses of the Koran which tell Muhammad's followers to do all kinds of nasty things to nonbelievers. As Muhammad himself did after the Hijra.

I noticed in one of her posts Mandy said that the religion which people were "going off the deep end" of just "happened to be Islam" as if it didn't really matter much if one became a Buddhist or a Muslim, but of course it does matter - it matters a great deal. Just read the holy texts of each of those two religions, and that's painfully clear for anyone to see. - Niccolo

[Niccolo]

I hope people have "good morals" too. But belief in a religion is not requisite for being a moral person. Too often religion justifies immoral behaviors and this is precisely because religion is antithetical to reason and thinking "things through". Religion teaches faith, the opposite of reasoned, critical thinking, the opposite of subjecting one's beliefs to openly verifiable tests. Religion is the bane of civilization and if we do not put away our silly superstitious religions they will eventually destroy us. - trish


That's not at all true. Religion at its core teaches one to think things through, to be reasonable, because at the opposite end of the spectrum is consequence, good and bad. Good consequence can come from thinking things through and bad consequence can come from not thinking things through. Good consequence can also come from not thinking things through and bad consequence can come from thinking things through too much. But consequence is only found in morality (those who are immoral...for example, serial murderers...serial rapists...do not fear consequence because they subscribe to a different set of morals, or have none at all). - Curious4TS07


All pretensions to theological knowledge should now be seen from the perspective of a man who was just beginning his day on the one hundredth floor of the World Trade Center on the morning of September 11, 2001, only to find his meandering thoughts — of family and friends, of errands run and unrun, of coffee in need of sweetener — inexplicably usurped by a choice of terrible starkness and simplicity: between being burned alive by jet fuel or leaping one thousand feet to the concrete below. [...]

The men who committed the atrocities of September 11 were certainly not "cowards," as they were repeatedly described in the Western media, nor were they lunatics in any ordinary sense. They were men of faith —perfect faith, as it turns out — and this, it must finally be acknowledged, is a terrible thing to be. - Sam Harris. (http://www.samharris.org/)

[tiramisu]

Israelis want the land of Palestine any how, and Hamas want theire land back.

To finish this war Israel must withdraw and unite with all Arab countries.


Kids are dyeing everyday in Gaza by American weapons and you guys still say islam is bad. Juish is worst

[Niccolo]

tiramisu,

If you believe that you can somehow persuade "all" Muslim countries to "unite" with Israel, then please take over from Tony Blair, fly out to Iran immediately, and get to work.

Before you do, please address Dr. Andrew Bostom's work (http://www.andrewbostom.org/) on this particular topic.

Niccolo.

[trish]

TS Curious writes:

I've met many non-religious people that did something immoral to--more or less--prove the point that God doesn't exist…My point is just that it goes both ways.

My point is that religion justifies immorality far more often. It inhibits people, forces them into molds, isolates, justifies cruelty, torture, expansionism, wars and even justifies the destruction of [the] planet as some joyously await the “end times”.


Religion at its core teaches one to think things through, to be reasonable, because at the opposite end of the spectrum is consequence…
Utter nonsense. Religions teach one to follow the rules, in spite of the consequences. Faith is belief in spite of reason. Religion is the bane of civilization because it is the very expression of intolerance. How can one, for example, celebrate a god who flooded the entire Earth and saved only one family as a god of compassion? How can one, for example, claim that a God who wiped out a city of sodomites (their children and families included) is a God of tolerance? How can we say such a religion teaches love?

But "love" also teaches faith…

Critical, reasonable thinking should lead me to the decision to not let this new person in my life because based on my own openly verifiable testing (i.e. my relationship history), I have a habit of picking women with the absolute worst possible qualities.
First of all, that last is not an example of critical thinking and openly verifiable testing. Secondly, what you’re talking about here is trust, not faith. There are reasons to trust and reasons not to trust. Trust is testable, faith is not. If you’re not sure you can trust someone to do X, one way of testing them is to trust them and see if they do X or not. Trust builds over time as people come through for each other over and over again on a daily basis. This cannot be done with religious faith, because the gods never predictably deliver. Modern gods know better than to make promises for this life time. Your reward is in eternity: life everlasting, virgins etc. To test those sorts of promises you have to wait a long time.

Religious ten[e]nts are held to be the ultimate truth, known absolutely to be true because they are handed down by the gods. They cannot be questioned. They must not be questioned. To question them is to affront the gods and incur their wrath. When the gods start dropping anvils from the heavens anybody and everybody gets hurts. Witness Noah's neighbors. Witness Sodom. No, there is no room for anyone to question the ten[e]nts of religion. It’s too fucking dangerous. Religion tolerates no tolerance. And so one religion battles another and the work of the gods is done by man.

[Edited for spelling and grammar]

[Angel17TS]

Israel will never learn.

Dont they know gas chambers are far more efficient to exterminate a race, than bullets? The Nazi's in their all consuming search for efficiency learned this early on.

Ohh Jews, look to the past, and you will find such good ways to get rid of them, Didnt you learn anything in the camps?

[El Nino]

The Israeli's certainly did learn something from the holocaust; how to commence one of their own...

[Niccolo]

"Go back to the oven," the woman in her hijab in Fort Lauderdale, Fla., yelled to the Jewish Americans demonstrating their support for Israel. "You need a big oven, that's what you need."

This is why I love Israel and always have. It is because Israel will never surrender to their hatred.

Israel is tiny. If you live in Massachusetts, as I did when I traveled there two decades ago, imagine Rhode Island being in the hands of those who are committed to destruction, sending rockets over your common border. If you live in Los Angeles, as I do now, imagine San Diego being not only a different state, but a committed enemy whose official government has long been listed as a terrorist organization.

How do you live like that? How do you raise your children knowing that, when they graduate from high school, they will go to war against those who do not place the same value on human life as you do, fighting people who send their children to be suicide bombers?

Amid the violence in Gaza, Israel stopped shooting for three hours yesterday to allow the people to get food and supplies, to allow trucks with medical supplies to deliver them in safety. Imagine Hamas doing the same thing to help Israeli civilians. I cannot. Not for a minute.

I do not always like everything Israel does. I do not always like everything my own country does. But I love Israel for the determination and courage of its people in standing up to the terrorists who would destroy it. And I detest those who traffic in anti-Semitism and then seek to excuse their hatred of me by saying no, it isn't Jews they hate. Just Israel. Liars.

The world is busy condemning Israel. The media are busy doubting its future. Time magazine goes on for pages about why Israel can't win. Maybe it can't, but it also can't lose.

Dick Morris says this is the doves' war, the last chance for the left-leaning government of Prime Minister Olmert and Defense Minister Barak to beat back the prospect of defeat by the more hard-line Binyamin Netanyahu. Politics is relative. From what I know, there are no doves in Israel. How can you be a dove when the rockets are landing 17 miles outside of Tel Aviv? You can fight or you can fight more. If Hamas can get away with murder, why should Iran fear at all?

No one likes seeing civilians suffer and die. No one likes seeing hospitals overrun, supplies running out, doctors near exhaustion. But terrorists who use schools and hospitals as launching pads for attacks should not complain when the bombs hit the targets they have created. No one likes to see children die, but so-called leaders who use their children as pawns and train them to kill should not expect sympathy when the lives they risk so carelessly are then lost.

If I knew the answer, I would tell you. I don't. But I know what isn't the answer. It is not the answer to sit back and let the rockets rain down. It is not the answer to let terrorists attack you and not fight back.

We will not go back to the ovens. Israel was the answer to the ovens, and if Israel is your enemy, so am I.

Susan Estrich @ creators dot com (http://www.creators.com/opinion/susan-estrich.html?columnsName=ses)

[Niccolo]

Angel17TS and El Nino,

I feel obliged to tell you that if you make any remarks similar to those in your previous posts, I will send a report containing screen captures of your comments, links, dates etc. to the CFCA (http://www.antisemitism.org.il/eng/), and well, we'll see what happens after that. Apart from anything else, I somehow don't think the board's owners will want to get into any kind of trouble, or have to explain themselves to anyone else, for something that you have said.

yours,

Niccolo.