I'm a Black Man, and Obama's Gonna Give Me Your Money!

[dafame]

This blog was inspired by the racist celtic pride. After reading some of his comments on a blog about the privilege that whites enjoy in America I started thinking about how scared some whites must be about the prospect of an African American man being our country's President.

I was watching the GOP convention and at the end after John McCain made his speech some CNN correspondents were interviewing some of the delegates in attendance. They were asking people what was there biggest fear about an Obama presidency. Most of the people there were saying that he wouldn't protect us from “the evil doers”, but there was one guy who gave a really telling answer. What he said was "if Barrack Obama becomes president he will re-distribute wealth within this nation".

What that means plainly is that if Obama becomes president whites will see there wealth stripped from them and transferred to blacks. The only way this could conceivably be done is through tax instituted reparations.

Let's talk about reparations or "40 acres and a mule" for a second.

40 acres and a mule is a term for compensation that was promised to be awarded to freed African American slaves after the Civil War— 40 acres (16 ha) of land to farm, and a mule with which to drag a plow so the land could be cultivated. The award—a land grant of a quarter of a quarter section (one square mile) deeded to heads of households presumably formerly owned by land-holding whites—was the product of Special Field Orders, No. 15, issued January 16, 1865 by Maj. Gen. William T. Sherman, which applied to black families.

This was deemed necessary as compensation for the 100's of years of free labor or more commonly put, slavery, and for the sacrifices that African Americans made during the Civil War. Since it was ofcourse through slavery that this nation attained it's wealth.

After the assassination of Abraham Lincoln, Shermans order was revoked by Lincoln’s successor (Andrew Johnson).

This is not meant to be a debate about whether or not reparations are appropriate but here's some food for thought. Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, and Larry Ellison are the three wealthiest men in America. Can you imagine how much wealthier they'd be if the hundreds of thousands of people they employ didn't have salaries? Then fast forward 100 or even 200 years and take a peak at the descendants of these three men and compare them with those of the people they employed 200 years earlier. What you'd find is that this isn't a fair comparison.

Now let me assure you my white brothers and sisters, if African Americans are to ever receive reparations for slavery it will not come from a black president and assuredly not Barack Obama. Here's why.

First of all anything that the president wants to push into effect must first become a bill that goes before Congress. One could argue that a Democratic led Congress would be exactly what would be needed to pass such a bill through. If you have that thought what you're missing is that a Democratic led Congress is still a majority white Congress. They are also elected to office by majority white districts.

If that wasn't reason enough then there the Jackie Robinson Syndrome. Jackie Robinson being the FIRST African American to be allowed to play in the Major Leagues had to make unquestionable sacrifices. He was racially heckled everywhere he went and initially by most of his teammates. He was refused entry into restaurants and hotels that his teammates had the privilege to stay and dine in. He received more death threats than imaginable. But here's the kicker, he couldn't speak a word back to his hecklers, he couldn't protest any refusal to be accepted into any establishment, he couldn't punch the given teammate that may have called him "nigger" that day, he couldn't give the slightest notion that he was unhappy with any of the treatment he was receiving. If he had he would have been deemed the "angry negro" and would have been cited as the prime example as to why blacks shouldn't be in the Major Leagues, or why they shouldn't go to the same schools with whites, or why they shouldn't be allowed to live in majority white neighborhoods, or sit on the front of the bus, or drink out of the same water fountain..etc..

Barack Obama finds himself in the same situation that Jackie Robison did in the sense that he will be the FIRST. As black people we're not thinking that were going to receive a check in the mail if Obama is elected. The effect an Obama presidency will have on the African American community will be far greater than what money can buy. What it will mean is that as a black man I can now look my son in the face and tell him that he can become anything he wants to become in life and mean it. As a child my son will grow up in a world where he knows this to be true. You will see far more African Americans in the future in leadership roles in every aspect of society. You will see far more in leadership roles of politics, as C.E.O's of major corporations, and you will again see an African American President of the United States one day.

Now let's assume for a second that if he chose to he would actually be able to re-distribute wealth in this county from white to black. Black's would receive a check in the mail paid for by the Fed that would be placed as tax on whites who are the descendants of people who lived in this country during the time of slavery and therefore benefited from it. If this were to happen there would never be another African American President again. Infact, there would be such a backlash from this that you would see far fewer African Americans in leadership roles in politics, corporations, and in every other facet of society.
Hate groups would grow to unprecedented proportions. Blacks being denied opportunity would be great and largely accepted. It would basically knock us back 50 years. The end result would be one that would hurt black people far more than it would help.

Barack Obama understands this and thus you have nothing to worry about.

[SarahG]

Now let's assume for a second that if he chose to he would actually be able to re-distribute wealth in this county from white to black. Black's would receive a check in the mail paid for by the Fed that would be placed as tax on whites who are the descendants of people who lived in this country during the time of slavery and therefore benefited from it. If this were to happen there would never be another African American President again. Infact, there would be such a backlash from this that you would see far fewer African Americans in leadership roles in politics, corporations, and in every other facet of society.
Hate groups would grow to unprecedented proportions. Blacks being denied opportunity would be great and largely accepted. It would basically knock us back 50 years. The end result would be one that would hurt black people far more than it would help.

Barack Obama understands this and thus you have nothing to worry about.

Bold isn't logistically feasible for other reasons, our databases aren't accurate enough to figure out which of our citizens the tax would apply to (if it was done that way), and then there would be figuring out how to tax people who had only half their family tree in America during those years, or only one branch, or... well you get the idea. Assuming that existing records wouldn't then be "misplaced" to avoid the tax, I can foresee the genealogical records that aren't already on sites like ancestry or the mormon's being "lost" to avoid that kind of a tax.

As is there are plenty of people who research their family trees who can't get far enough back to the civil war era, let alone earlier, and then some may only ever know where one branch was in those years and not the rest.

This gets worse in unusual circumstances (like adoptees).

[dafame]

Now let's assume for a second that if he chose to he would actually be able to re-distribute wealth in this county from white to black. Black's would receive a check in the mail paid for by the Fed that would be placed as tax on whites who are the descendants of people who lived in this country during the time of slavery and therefore benefited from it. If this were to happen there would never be another African American President again. Infact, there would be such a backlash from this that you would see far fewer African Americans in leadership roles in politics, corporations, and in every other facet of society.
Hate groups would grow to unprecedented proportions. Blacks being denied opportunity would be great and largely accepted. It would basically knock us back 50 years. The end result would be one that would hurt black people far more than it would help.

Barack Obama understands this and thus you have nothing to worry about.

Bold isn't logistically feasible for other reasons, our databases aren't accurate enough to figure out which of our citizens the tax would apply to (if it was done that way), and then there would be figuring out how to tax people who had only half their family tree in America during those years, or only one branch, or... well you get the idea. Assuming that existing records wouldn't then be "misplaced" to avoid the tax, I can foresee the genealogical records that aren't already on sites like ancestry or the mormon's being "lost" to avoid that kind of a tax.

As is there are plenty of people who research their family trees who can't get far enough back to the civil war era, let alone earlier, and then some may only ever know where one branch was in those years and not the rest.

This gets worse in unusual circumstances (like adoptees).

Good point.

[Hostile]

lol, Obama came out of a white pussy and was raised by white grand parents, he is only half black, how can you compare him with Jackie Robinson, that's assinine! Robinson was from a time that couldn't compare with today's racists bullshit. Wake up bro, its not whites killing blacks its other blacks and at the level Obama is at the only color he and all political powers see is is green. There is no black & white at that level, there is only green. I judge a man by his heart , not because of his color , his sexuality or by his political party. If you are a good human being than who cares if your black or white or if you dress up , suck dick , whatever! If you aint hurting no body then that's all good in my book. All politicians say the same shit, only time will tell who is real and who is a fake. I love all the colors of the rainbow including the rainbow its self.

[dafame]

lol, Obama came out of a white pussy and was raised by white grand parents, he is only half black, how can you compare him with Jackie Robinson, that's assinine! Robinson was from a time that couldn't compare with today's racists bullshit. Wake up bro, its not whites killing blacks its other blacks and at the level Obama is at the only color he and all political powers see is is green. There is no black & white at that level, there is only green. I judge a man by his heart , not because of his color , his sexuality or by his political party. If you are a good human being than who cares if your black or white or if you dress up , suck dick , whatever! If you aint hurting no body then that's all good in my book. All politicians say the same shit, only time will tell who is real and who is a fake. I love all the colors of the rainbow including the rainbow its self.

It's great that you feel that way but unfortunately that's not the reality of the society we live in. If it were true that a black man stops being black and is seen in terms of green at that level then we would have seen a black President by now or atleast on that has gotten as close as Obama has to this point. I appreciate the fact that you say you don't see color but you kinda lost me with the black are killing blacks part. Good topic for discussion but it just seems a little out of place in comparison to what I was talking about. Perhaps you just needed to get that off your chest?

[Hostile]

At that level its a chess game for both parties, just like McCain picking a woman to counter the dem party picking a light skinned likable black male. Its all about the green, don't you fool yourself. I have no problem with a black president or a woman president but I do not root by race or political party, this is one giant chess game, trust that! There are plenty of black politicians who have accomplished a lot more than the whopping 2 years Obama has been around, but the party feels Obama's charisma and gift of speaking along with the old "It's time for change speach" has made him a good front person. Obama is a very likable guy, good looking, great sense of humor , the poster boy for getting a dem in the oval office. But do not be fooled, its all about the green.

I need nothing off my chest, I told you, i love all colors of the rainbow and the rainbow it's self

[Legend]

What that means plainly is that if Obama becomes president whites will see there wealth stripped from them and transferred to blacks. The only way this could conceivably be done is through tax instituted reparations.

I'm not a political person and i know that comment meant distribute money to the middle class not specially black people,i doubt those guys want their money distributed to anyone.

[underdog6]

Not trying to be mean. But this is the stupidest thread i ever read.

[HP1000]

If you want to see what kind of disgusting ethnic sewer America will be in twenty years (assuming we sit by and do nothing) take a good look at Latin America and the black culture on welfare!
White people ought to stop deluding themselves. Hispanics, Asians and blacks just come here to jump on the welfare system. They're voting themselves money out of the public treasury (whites pay for it) and then they call us racial names like "gringo and cracker." And then when we stand up and defend ourselves they, with the support of the anti-American Left, have the nerve to call us racist and treat the White Man like a second class citizen in his own country.
The other races just hate us. Face it. They're jealous because they can't build civilizations like we can and when they try to they just build another ghetto ruled by crime and violence. They're hustlers who come here to raid our pockets, destroy our natural resources, bankrupt our economy, dumb-down our educational system, and finally ruin everything that we've worked for.
You'll notice that after we started granting voting rights to minorities in the 60's that this country has slid downward ever since. We need to clean house in this country.

America was founded and built up by the blood, sweat, sacrifice and determination of White Christians. May God have mercy on anyone who attempts to turn this country into an international welfare office with a flag

Where are all these black dope selling crack people going to get a job if Obama is elected?

[NYBURBS]

If you want to see what kind of disgusting ethnic sewer America will be in twenty years (assuming we sit by and do nothing) take a good look at Latin America and the black culture on welfare!
White people ought to stop deluding themselves. Hispanics, Asians and blacks just come here to jump on the welfare system. They're voting themselves money out of the public treasury (whites pay for it) and then they call us racial names like "gringo and cracker." And then when we stand up and defend ourselves they, with the support of the anti-American Left, have the nerve to call us racist and treat the White Man like a second class citizen in his own country.
The other races just hate us. Face it. They're jealous because they can't build civilizations like we can and when they try to they just build another ghetto ruled by crime and violence. They're hustlers who come here to raid our pockets, destroy our natural resources, bankrupt our economy, dumb-down our educational system, and finally ruin everything that we've worked for.
You'll notice that after we started granting voting rights to minorities in the 60's that this country has slid downward ever since. We need to clean house in this country.

America was founded and built up by the blood, sweat, sacrifice and determination of White Christians. May God have mercy on anyone who attempts to turn this country into an international welfare office with a flag

Where are all these black dope selling crack people going to get a job if Obama is elected?

Well by your second post you have confirmed yourself as a fucking idiot. Congratulations!

[HP1000]

If you want to see what kind of disgusting ethnic sewer America will be in twenty years (assuming we sit by and do nothing) take a good look at Latin America and the black culture on welfare!
White people ought to stop deluding themselves. Hispanics, Asians and blacks just come here to jump on the welfare system. They're voting themselves money out of the public treasury (whites pay for it) and then they call us racial names like "gringo and cracker." And then when we stand up and defend ourselves they, with the support of the anti-American Left, have the nerve to call us racist and treat the White Man like a second class citizen in his own country.
The other races just hate us. Face it. They're jealous because they can't build civilizations like we can and when they try to they just build another ghetto ruled by crime and violence. They're hustlers who come here to raid our pockets, destroy our natural resources, bankrupt our economy, dumb-down our educational system, and finally ruin everything that we've worked for.
You'll notice that after we started granting voting rights to minorities in the 60's that this country has slid downward ever since. We need to clean house in this country.

America was founded and built up by the blood, sweat, sacrifice and determination of White Christians. May God have mercy on anyone who attempts to turn this country into an international welfare office with a flag

Where are all these black dope selling crack people going to get a job if Obama is elected?

Well by your second post you have confirmed yourself as a fucking idiot. Congratulations!



Are you on WELFARE?

[NYBURBS]

If you want to see what kind of disgusting ethnic sewer America will be in twenty years (assuming we sit by and do nothing) take a good look at Latin America and the black culture on welfare!
White people ought to stop deluding themselves. Hispanics, Asians and blacks just come here to jump on the welfare system. They're voting themselves money out of the public treasury (whites pay for it) and then they call us racial names like "gringo and cracker." And then when we stand up and defend ourselves they, with the support of the anti-American Left, have the nerve to call us racist and treat the White Man like a second class citizen in his own country.
The other races just hate us. Face it. They're jealous because they can't build civilizations like we can and when they try to they just build another ghetto ruled by crime and violence. They're hustlers who come here to raid our pockets, destroy our natural resources, bankrupt our economy, dumb-down our educational system, and finally ruin everything that we've worked for.
You'll notice that after we started granting voting rights to minorities in the 60's that this country has slid downward ever since. We need to clean house in this country.

America was founded and built up by the blood, sweat, sacrifice and determination of White Christians. May God have mercy on anyone who attempts to turn this country into an international welfare office with a flag

Where are all these black dope selling crack people going to get a job if Obama is elected?

Well by your second post you have confirmed yourself as a fucking idiot. Congratulations!

Are you on WELFARE?

I've never been on any government assistance, and I am also white in case you were wondering. I payed the top income tax percentage last year also. What bracket did you pay? I'm no fan of the race baiting posts by some people, but the ignorance you just spewed is unacceptable.

[HP1000]

If you want to see what kind of disgusting ethnic sewer America will be in twenty years (assuming we sit by and do nothing) take a good look at Latin America and the black culture on welfare!
White people ought to stop deluding themselves. Hispanics, Asians and blacks just come here to jump on the welfare system. They're voting themselves money out of the public treasury (whites pay for it) and then they call us racial names like "gringo and cracker." And then when we stand up and defend ourselves they, with the support of the anti-American Left, have the nerve to call us racist and treat the White Man like a second class citizen in his own country.
The other races just hate us. Face it. They're jealous because they can't build civilizations like we can and when they try to they just build another ghetto ruled by crime and violence. They're hustlers who come here to raid our pockets, destroy our natural resources, bankrupt our economy, dumb-down our educational system, and finally ruin everything that we've worked for.
You'll notice that after we started granting voting rights to minorities in the 60's that this country has slid downward ever since. We need to clean house in this country.

America was founded and built up by the blood, sweat, sacrifice and determination of White Christians. May God have mercy on anyone who attempts to turn this country into an international welfare office with a flag

Where are all these black dope selling crack people going to get a job if Obama is elected?

Well by your second post you have confirmed yourself as a fucking idiot. Congratulations!

Are you on WELFARE?

I've never been on any government assistance, and I am also white in case you were wondering. I payed the top income tax percentage last year also. What bracket did you pay? I'm no fan of the race baiting posts by some people, but the ignorance you just spewed is unacceptable.



I bet you love the fact that 30 million Illegal Aliens are in this country taking your jobs also?

[PapaGrande]

I think its telling that you hear someone say "redistribution of wealth" and assume that is somehow code words about black people. What these people are talking about is the fact that the top 50% pay almost all the taxes and it will get even worse under Obama. It has nothing to do with skin color and everything to do with the fact that some people have to pay 40% of their income as taxes while others pay almost nothing or nothing at all.

[NYBURBS]

I bet you love the fact that 30 million Illegal Aliens are in this country taking your jobs also?

No I don't like the fact that anyone is here illegally, nor do I enjoy the fact that many of them are given government support services. However, that does not mean I think they are the root of all of our problems. You seem to think they have fangs and sacrifice young children to the devil. Your ignorance (and those like you) only make it harder for logical and rational people to make legitimate arguments against certain government policies. Please go crawl back under that rock from whence you came and don't ever come back out.

[Whatisthedeal]

HP1000 sounds like a delousional republican that can't admit the truth about anything. I'm glad you want to blame the minorities for taking everything that you feel you deserved. Realize one thing you DUMBASS!; America was built by stealing a land that wasn't there's (Native Americans owned the land), building there economy off of free labor from the Africans and putting them into complete misery, and making sure no one succeeds other than the whites that don't want to see someone else succeed then themselves (Not every white is like that, there actually good whites in this world).

You are so extreme in your thought you remind me of Sarah Palin. Some food for thought: 1. Troopergate; the guy she fired for not firing her brother- in- law which wasn't the real case for the firing....she fired him because he wanted more state money to stop rapes in the state (alaska the number 1 state for rapes) SP=SICK!
2. Before she had a special needs baby she cut funding in her state for the special olympics, who the hell does that!? And now we must be proud of her because has a special needs baby! SP=SICK!

Yeah I know I was off topic, but I had to say something about it. It was killing me inside... I'm sure I will catch hell for my comments and you know what?...I don't give a F***!

[Justawannabe]

Slightly more on topic...

The line 'he will redistribute the wealth of America' is actually probably not related to him being black in this case. The political right in this country thinks of the graduated income tax (and taxes in general) as a plot to redistribute wealth from the rich to the poor, and is a pretty standard line. It is part of the socialist accusations, fear of the cost of universal health care, etc.

There is little to no nod to the concept that the wealthy tend to get more out of this society than the poor, as long as peace and infrastructure are maintained, and that a heavier tax burden proportionally helps balance that.

Anyway, just wanted to say, it's not all about the reparations argument, though that may come up. You can find the same lines from almost every election in which there is a right/left conflict.

Sean

[dafame]

I think its telling that you hear someone say "redistribution of wealth" and assume that is somehow code words about black people. What these people are talking about is the fact that the top 50% pay almost all the taxes and it will get even worse under Obama. It has nothing to do with skin color and everything to do with the fact that some people have to pay 40% of their income as taxes while others pay almost nothing or nothing at all.

It has everything to do with skin color in the sense that yes the assumption I made about the select individual I was referring to was coded. No one wants to talk about it, it makes everyone uncomfortable but it is indeed a fact. He's not the only person that has made comments as such. Some people have come right on out and said it.

[tsmandy]

Welfare? You mean the 700 billion that is about to be handed over to those guys in suits on Wall Street? The 1.6 trillion and counting piggout handed over to the defense industry for the war in Iraq? Or the 1.8 percent of US discretionary spending that goes towards Food Stamps, Welfare, etc?

Come on, I have dial up internet and it only took me 2 minutes to figure that shit out.

Obama will shovel money towards wall St just like any other president would.

If I believed he would invest in reperations I would maybe vote for the guy.

[SarahG]

White people ought to stop deluding themselves. Hispanics, Asians and blacks just come here to jump on the welfare system. They're voting themselves money out of the public treasury (whites pay for it) and then they call us racial names like "gringo and cracker."

Actually blacks weren't here by choice, in case you've forgotten.... there wasn't some big evil conspiracy to migrate here "for all the wonderful things America has to offer."

As to the national debt, both sides agree that our biggest commitments in the future come from the birth surge of the babyboomer era, and DOW spending (like Iraq). And when talking about the babyboomers, I mean all those white WW2 veterans who returned from WW2, got rich (by prewar standards) in the 50s and started surburbia by having 5+ kids in a small 15 year period. It were these white Americans who redid FDR's social welfare programs in the 60s to cure poverty, not minorities- and its this population of middle class America that expects to be able to spend the last 20 years or more of their lives as retirees, not working and living off of the country's dollar.



America was founded and built up by the blood, sweat, sacrifice and determination of White Christians.


No, it was founded by a group of religious extremists who were so radical, so authoritarian that they had to leave Europe to find a place to exist, a group that when combined with the blood thirsty Spanish, went on a quest to pillage, rape, murder and torture millions of native populations for personal gain through brutality, deception, and the banner of religious superiority. You can draw a line through Spanish America of missionaries from central America up the western United States erected strictly to force-convert native populations after the bid to enslave them failed.


I bet you love the fact that 30 million Illegal Aliens are in this country taking your jobs also?

Our jobs? Bullshit, the reason why illegals come here is because white Americans will hire them at meager pay in order to profit from the cheap labor. No white Americans are willing to work fields, meat packing factories, or clean toilets in office buildings at such low pay, so the employers find someone who will.


It has nothing to do with skin color and everything to do with the fact that some people have to pay 40% of their income as taxes while others pay almost nothing or nothing at all.

Very few Americans pay "almost nothing or nothing at all" when it comes to taxes. The lower SECs pay a far greater portion of their income to taxes because they're losing such a big chunk right out of their pay to social security, and what's left over gets quickly eaten up through stuff like sales tax, gas taxes, and the math illiteracy tax* Sure, the dollar amount may not be as high, but that doesn't mean they get a free ride.


* In a way the government is the ultimate organized crime syndicate. In the great depression the lotto was run by organized crime- same groups that were bootleggers, who would pray on the desperate impoverished by running 'the numbers'- a practice that was heavily illegal back then. In realizing there was great potential for using that for raising revenue, the states started doing state-run gambling programs along side laws prohibiting anyone else from doing so. It is a gov run monopoly, knowing full well the only types of people who would dump significant portions of their income on it would be the same types of people who were preyed upon in the 20s-30s. Meanwhile if you don't pay your protection money- you're gonna lose your property or liberty.

[trish]

top 50% pay almost all the taxes


The top 50% of what? And what to you mean by top? Did you know that 50% of the tax revenue is collected from those who pay the “bottom” 50%? Nobody makes money on their own. The CEO of Lehman Brothers made $17000 an hour 24/7 last year. John McCain wants his tax break to be made permanent! If you’re wealthy and you use the financial and legal infrastructure provided by the tax payers. If you have more, you should pay more. Before the current banking debacle Obama laid out plans to cut taxes for 90% of the middle and lower class tax payers. Now, nobody can make promises, except McCain who still says we need to make those tax breaks for the wealthiest 1% permanent.

[El Nino]

Commie Trish at it again...

[trish]

Nazi, El Nino at it again...

[El Nino]

haha, yeah Nazi... sure Trish. Is that the best you can come up with. How can you even relate me to that of Nazi sentiments?

[trish]

My point exactly, idiot!

[El Nino]

no no, my statement did have direct relevance. Don't you see?

[yodajazz]

If you want to see what kind of disgusting ethnic sewer America will be in twenty years (assuming we sit by and do nothing) take a good look at Latin America and the black culture on welfare!
White people ought to stop deluding themselves. Hispanics, Asians and blacks just come here to jump on the welfare system. They're voting themselves money out of the public treasury (whites pay for it) and then they call us racial names like "gringo and cracker." And then when we stand up and defend ourselves they, with the support of the anti-American Left, have the nerve to call us racist and treat the White Man like a second class citizen in his own country.
The other races just hate us. Face it. They're jealous because they can't build civilizations like we can and when they try to they just build another ghetto ruled by crime and violence. They're hustlers who come here to raid our pockets, destroy our natural resources, bankrupt our economy, dumb-down our educational system, and finally ruin everything that we've worked for.
You'll notice that after we started granting voting rights to minorities in the 60's that this country has slid downward ever since. We need to clean house in this country.

America was founded and built up by the blood, sweat, sacrifice and determination of White Christians. May God have mercy on anyone who attempts to turn this country into an international welfare office with a flag

Where are all these black dope selling crack people going to get a job if Obama is elected?

That is right out of the Ayran Nation playbook. What gets me most is the term "White Christians". People like this claim to be Christian, but his post violates key things taught by Christ. Jesus reserved his harshest criticism for people that claimed to be religious but practiced otherwise.
I don't recall reading anywhere in the Bible that 'White Christians' were better than any other Christians. But maybe I missed that passage.

One point Grand Wizzard, The US was at it's highest prosperity around 2000, not 1960. But don't worry, as we speak there are forces at work trying to deny Black the right to vote, or otherwise cancel out the Black vote.

I do want to thank HP1000 for being honest about his feelings. But you are honestly way out there. Blacks have given thier lives in every single American war. I served two years my self in the army. And to think that there are people out there who think that denying me the right to vote is cool. Sad, sad, sad. May God have mercy on your soul, and our nation.

[trish]

Yes, yes, you really are an idiot, el nino. If you cannot distinguish mainstream American political thought from communism why should we listen to any of your hair-brained political opinions? You've shown yourself once again to be intellectually ill-prepared and lost within the grip of a faded socio-politico Darwinian ideology that is more than a little reminiscent of the early to mid-twentieth century Teutonic fascination with the ubermensch and the corresponding theory that the poor are poor because of their moral inferiority.

[hippifried]

Well I'm starting to think that this fight between the commies & the Nazis is what's causing the oppression of Christians by negroes. But never fear. As soon as we arbitrate our way into a takeover by Sharia law, the illegal Mexican Catholics will be able to divvy up the country with the Chinese & force whites & jews to interbreed each other out of existence. That will allow the Mormons to decide who lives where until a consortium of British Pakistanis, Kurds, & Albanians can move in & establish itself as the new majority.
:roll:

[yodajazz]

Well I'm starting to think that this fight between the commies & the Nazis is what's causing the oppression of Christians by negroes. But never fear. As soon as we arbitrate our way into a takeover by Sharia law, the illegal Mexican Catholics will be able to divvy up the country with the Chinese & force whites & jews to interbreed each other out of existence. That will allow the Mormons to decide who lives where until a consortium of British Pakistanis, Kurds, & Albanians can move in & establish itself as the new majority.
:roll:

The New World..., I mean the Cleveland Rotary Club is watching you.

[tubgirl]

top 50% pay almost all the taxes


The top 50% of what? And what to you mean by top? Did you know that 50% of the tax revenue is collected from those who pay the “bottom” 50%? .

uh, what?


The Top 50% pay 96.54% of All Income Taxes

(The top 1% pay more than a third: 34.27%)



October 4, 2005

This is the data for calendar year 2003 just released in October 2005 by the Internal Revenue Service. The share of total income taxes paid by the top 1% of wage earners rose to 34.27% from 33.71% in 2002. Their income share (not just wages) rose from 16.12% to 16.77%. However, their average tax rate actually dropped from 27.25% down to 24.31%


http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/menu/cy2003.guest.html

http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/menu/nyt.guest.html

[trish]

Those who reap 90% of the wealth of this country pay 50% of the taxes. Time for a change: put an end to the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy.

[PapaGrande]

Those who reap 90% of the wealth of this country pay 50% of the taxes. Time for a change: put an end to the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy.


Everyone is entitled to 100% of the money they earn.

The top 50% of taxpayers (AGI) paid 97% of all Federal Income taxes collected. The top 25%, which includes myself and many other middle class people paid 86%
http://www.ntu.org/main/page.php?PageID=6

[Cuchulain]

"...today the wealthiest one-tenth of 1 percent earns more income than the bottom 50 percent. The top 1 percent owns more wealth than the bottom 90 percent. And the wealthiest 400 Americans in this country have not only seen their incomes double, their net worth has increased by $640 billion since George W. Bush has been in office.

Can you believe that? Four hundred families, four hundred people, less than the Congress, have seen a $640 billion increase in their wealth since President Bush has been in office. And, amazingly, these 400 families are now worth over $1.5 trillion--400 families. On average, they earn over $214 million a year.

As a result of President Bush's policies, amazingly enough, their tax rates have been cut almost in half to only 18 percent on average. Amazingly, the wealthiest 400 Americans pay a lower tax rate than most police officers, teachers, firefighters, and nurses. So if you are one of the very wealthiest people in this country, if you are earning $214 million a year on average, you pay a lower tax rate than somebody who is a police officer, a teacher, a firefighter, or a nurse.

That may make sense to somebody; it does not make sense to me. What does it say about us as a nation when the middle class pays a greater percentage of their income in taxes than the wealthiest 400 Americans?

It is this very small segment of our population that has made out like bandits--frankly, some of them are bandits--during the Bush administration." http://sanders.senate.gov/news/record.cfm?id=303188

Hmm, the top 400 have gained $640 billion since Dubya has been in? Sounds like almost enough to cover the bail out....

[InHouston]

I saw an interview where Obama talked of observing his waitress while eating his meal, and how he thought that she deserved a "leg up" and assistance from the more fortunate people of this nation. My first job was at Baskin Robbins serving people ice cream for $1.75, and I had to walk to and from work rain or shine. I didn't sit around wanting money from other people. I got a better wage at Hartz Chicken, then Burger King, then courier driving, then a file clerk job, then data entry, then some night school. Within 6 years from a teenage age, I went from $1.75 an hour to $35,000 a year. Later throughout my career, in some years I've earned up to seven times that amount. If that waitress wants a leg up, get a skill, or marry a doctor.

Fuck Obama.

[chefmike]

Yes, yes, you really are an idiot, el nino. If you cannot distinguish mainstream American political thought from communism why should we listen to any of your hair-brained political opinions? You've shown yourself once again to be intellectually ill-prepared and lost within the grip of a faded socio-politico Darwinian ideology that is more than a little reminiscent of the early to mid-twentieth century Teutonic fascination with the ubermensch and the corresponding theory that the poor are poor because of their moral inferiority.

Yeah, what she said.

[trish]

PapaGrande asserts, as if it settled everything, that:


Everyone is entitled to 100% of the money they earn.

Perhaps, but not everyone earns 100% of the money they reap. And many people aren’t paid 100% for the worth of their labors. If you’re “earning” stock dividends you must realize that income would be impossible without the supporting monetary and legal infrastructures provided by other taxpayers besides yourself. Try surviving alone on an island and see how much money you accumulate.

InHouston writes:


…I went from $1.75 an hour to $35,000 a year. Later throughout my career, in some years I've earned up to seven times that amount. If that waitress wants a leg up, get a skill, or marry a doctor.

Again the theory that the poor are poor because of their own inferiority.

So eventually you found yourself earning $245,000/year. Good for you. With luck your hard work and perseverance paid off. It hardly follows that every waiter or waitress with equal persistence will have equal luck and opportunity. There are plenty of people with skills but no jobs and not because they don’t want to work. It’s not surprising that the man who makes $245,000 a year is telling waitresses to marry wealthy doctors. Perhaps we should institute polygamy, so people of your great financial and moral stature could support more than one waitress-turned-wife at a time.


Fuck Obama.

Fuck McBush. Fuck McCain (who insists the “fundamentals of our economy are strong” during the worst economic collapse since the great depression) and fuck that anti-science bitch, McPalin, (who wants creationism taught in our schools, would see the supreme court overturn Roe vs Wade, and who can see Russia from her back porch).

[InHouston]

With luck your hard work and perseverance paid off.

Luck had nothing to do with it. My hard work and perseverance paid off because I care. If I didn’t care about my future, I would have never worked hard nor persevered. Working at Burger King was hard at times. Yet, when you’re really inspired to make a significant difference in your future, then the hard work really begins. My hardest work began with my full time job as a data entry clerk ($5.00 an hour), attending classes at night, doing homework at night, studying beyond the scope of what was required by my classes until sunup on many occasions. Then the doors of opportunity begin to open all around you, and thus the saying “Preparation meets opportunity”. Suddenly, you find yourself able to answer questions and solve problems for a company that your peers around you cannot, and you’re upward mobile as a result.

It’s simple. Get a position in a large and established company, and make yourself as valuable as possible. People naturally depend on you with such a work ethic. And that dependability will grant you promotion after promotion because dependability is in high demand and experience is the fruit of all your labors.

[NYBURBS]

Everyone has to pay into the tax system. The questions at hand are what is the fairest and most equitable means of doing so and how much government is too much?

There is a racket going with the super rich and the loopholes they have installed to avoid paying these taxes. However, if you think the democratic or republican parties are going to change that then you've been sadly deluded. It costs millions or tens of millions to run for office and both parties will do whatever is necessary to obtain that money and keep power/office.

When they get together and talk about leveling the playing field that is political speak for "we'll take it from the upper-middle class and give it to some lower class". Then we all fight with each other and avoid the big issue.

Real reform would involve diluting the power of parties to choose candidates, reforming the commerce clause in order to return more power to local levels, and addressing the very real issue of the federal reserve/central baking system.

To Trish: The idea of an ubermensch is valid and much of what Nietzsche wrote is correct. You can see the sleep walkers all around you everyday, reading people magazine for the latest pointless gossip or engaging in the same behaviors that have lead them to fail in the past.

I am of the opinion that the most limited form of government is the best form of government. Not because I am callous or uncaring of others, but rather because I want to the freedom to excel and do my best. There is a very short list of things we need from the governments we form, the rest we should endeavor to achieve by other means. At the end of the day socialism is a noble idea but not one that works well with the practice of freedom and excellence.

[trish]

…much of what Nietzsche wrote is correct.

In the Will to Power, Nietzsche wrote that one with true personal power is magnanimous to a fault. The powerful are overflowing and have power to waste. Nietzsche was in fact very critical of social Darwinism and warned against attempts to apply “survival of the fittest” to socio-economics. Like the Nazi political philosophy that came before it, objectivism is a watered down misunderstanding of Nietzschean ideals. But then Frederick always said he would be misunderstood.

[hippifried]

…much of what Nietzsche wrote is correct.

In the Will to Power, Nietzsche wrote that one with true personal power is magnanimous to a fault. The powerful are overflowing and have power to waste. Nietzsche was in fact very critical of social Darwinism and warned against attempts to apply “survival of the fittest” to socio-economics. Like the Nazi political philosophy that came before it, objectivism is a watered down misunderstanding of Nietzschean ideals. But then Frederick always said he would be misunderstood.
Of course he's misunderstood. That happens to anybody who talks in circles. Nietzsche was a putz. So was Ayn Rand & her little egoist... (Oh excuse me, I forgot about the name change.) ..."objectivist" club. I came to the conclusion a long time ago that professional "philosophers" are crackpots skating through life on bullshit. Everybody has a philosophy. Writing it down & getting it published doesn't make it more valid. One can have as meaningful a discussion on the meaning of life with Dick the bartender, Babs the beautician, & Ahkmed the cab driver as sitting with academic snobs discussing Kierkegaard or Thomas Aquinas. At least they're up to date.

[tubgirl]

Those who reap 90% of the wealth of this country pay 50% of the taxes. Time for a change: put an end to the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy.

and how many job cuts do you think that will lead to? the "wealthy" are the employers of this country. why do you think that you can take more money from them, in the form of higher taxes, and not have it trickle down?

[trish]

None, Nada, No job cuts. Small businesses are the employers of this country and they're being stifled by the huge conglomerates. I can't count how many mom&pop stores have closed in my town simply because large distributors don't want to be bothered with small scale deliveries to supply small businesses. Everyone can see now where Big Banking got us. Once upon a time, when you took out a mortgage you took your monthly check to the savings and loan company just down the street. The execs in that company knew who they were loaning money to and what their financial circumstances were. Now you send your check across the country while the person who approved your loan collects his commission.

Trickle down represents a poor understanding of how gravity actually works. Money doesn't fall down, it falls up, from the pockets of the poor and middle class into those of the rich. Money attracts money. It accumulates in the pockets of the greedy. Black-holes don't give up what's dropped into them, and neither do the greedy give up "their" money.

[NYBURBS]

In the Will to Power, Nietzsche wrote that one with true personal power is magnanimous to a fault. The powerful are overflowing and have power to waste. Nietzsche was in fact very critical of social Darwinism and warned against attempts to apply “survival of the fittest” to socio-economics. Like the Nazi political philosophy that came before it, objectivism is a watered down misunderstanding of Nietzschean ideals. But then Frederick always said he would be misunderstood.

I'm not here to defend the wealthy aristocratic dynasties in this country and I certainly do not support this 3 quarter of a trillion dollar welfare program they are trying to push through for them. Tbh many of these super rich thrive simply because they have inherited money and estates from those before them. However, this whole idea that we all need to subjugate ourselves to the masses is also mistaken. Communism is a nice theory in some ways but does not pan out in actual practice. Socialism requires extreme amounts of government interference into people's lives.

I have zero use for the social conservatives that would use the police power of the state to enforce their moral/religious code upon everyone, and also no use for the liberals that would enforce their imagined economic equality through heavy taxes and big government programs.

Oh and Nietzsche did believe in a fair start, such as quality education (as do I), but he most certainly understood that some would rocket ahead while others go moo from their spot in the back of the herd. As for Ayn Rand she is a bit rough around the edges but the truth of her position does generally hold true. Some ppl excel, while others self-destruct. There is a difference between egoism and cynical/destructive egoism.

[qeuqheeg222]

the ubermensch!!!!!!! trish i just spat out my beer laughing..i ho[pe i didnt wreck my keyboard......

[yodajazz]

In the Will to Power, Nietzsche wrote that one with true personal power is magnanimous to a fault. The powerful are overflowing and have power to waste. Nietzsche was in fact very critical of social Darwinism and warned against attempts to apply “survival of the fittest” to socio-economics. Like the Nazi political philosophy that came before it, objectivism is a watered down misunderstanding of Nietzschean ideals. But then Frederick always said he would be misunderstood.

I'm not here to defend the wealthy aristocratic dynasties in this country and I certainly do not support this 3 quarter of a trillion dollar welfare program they are trying to push through for them. Tbh many of these super rich thrive simply because they have inherited money and estates from those before them. However, this whole idea that we all need to subjugate ourselves to the masses is also mistaken. Communism is a nice theory in some ways but does not pan out in actual practice. Socialism requires extreme amounts of government interference into people's lives.

I have zero use for the social conservatives that would use the police power of the state to enforce their moral/religious code upon everyone, and also no use for the liberals that would enforce their imagined economic equality through heavy taxes and big government programs.

Oh and Nietzsche did believe in a fair start, such as quality education (as do I), but he most certainly understood that some would rocket ahead while others go moo from their spot in the back of the herd. As for Ayn Rand she is a bit rough around the edges but the truth of her position does generally hold true. Some ppl excel, while others self-destruct. There is a difference between egoism and cynical/destructive egoism.

I disagree with your statements like “subugate ourselves to the masses”. The more people that are helped by government social policies, means more productive people who are consumer spenders. The more consumer spenders there are means greater demands for products and services and everybody benefits, even the rich. When you have companies like the big auto companies not doing well, it generally means that not enough people are making the kind of money to buy new cars.
Poor people spend all of their money and it goes right back into the economy. Middle class people buy homes, cars and everything else.

Black people have a higher percentage of poor and are often thought of as benefiting from social programming. But here’s something I heard: Black women make up over half the women in Iraq. Regardless or not if you agree with the mission, they are there putting their lives on the line to serve our government military objectives. So I am saying that whatever has been invested in these women in the past is being paid back as increased military personnel strength.

But I look at other things such as the US military aid to the republic of Georgia, and I don’t see the investment return as that high. Most of the women over in Iraq, will come home and hopefully their military experience will propel them into middleclass jobs, where they will be circulating the moneys earned from their careers directly in the US economy. Hopefully they could afford to pay back thier credit, etc.

[NYBURBS]

1) It has nothing to do with black/white/tan/purple/pink/etc. It has to do with those that make something of themselves and those that don't. I have met extraordinary people in my life of all different colors, along with massive fuck ups from each race.

2) It is not the "goal" of social programs that I disagree with. My big problem lies in two things. First the government does not run anything well and the waste is unimaginable. Second of all a heavy tax burden means that people have less freedom to pursue their own interests. However, what social programs there are should be decided and controlled on a State/local level and not by the federal government.

You seem to think my distaste for heavy social spending somehow has something to do with blacks. It does not, nor does it translate into a dislike for the working poor (which I have been in my life). I also have a strong distaste for the foreign policy we engage in and our military spending abroad. I simply believe that the government should have a very limited role in our lives.

[hippifried]

I don't have an economically ideological problem with social spending. It just keeps money in circulation. Poor people spend all their money. If it opens more opportunities to people who wouldn't have them otherwise because of the accident of their birth, it's worth it. So much of it would be totally unnecessary if we'd just concentrate more of our resources on our own infrastructure instead of wasting our time & energies chasing the specters of imaginary problems & threats.

Socialism is just pooling resources to accomplish things that individuals can't. Capitalism is privatized socialism with a narrowed scope. You're either a socialist or a hermit. Everything else is just degrees.

[trish]

I’m not a fan of communism either, NYBURBS; but not because it doesn’t work. It certainly does. Sparta was a communistic form of society that was quite efficient. Most military ways of life and also the corporate way of life are communistic. The military expects from each soldier everything he or she can give, and provides each with their needs. The corporation expects from each employee everything they can get and pays each employee only what is required in the interest of the bottom line. There’s very little freedom in the military and very little within the corporation. Certainly there’s very little room for dissent. I don’t particularly like any of these examples of communistic life.

If you haven’t noticed big government programs (like the program for regime change in Iraq) are not of liberal origin. The federal government expanded under Reagan, then Bush I, shrunk under Clinton, expanded again under Bush II. There’s always going to be government programs. In a government of the people, by the people and FOR the people it would seem fitting that there be some major program FOR the people; e.g. social security and health care for starters. I have no doubt that given time, we will have both. Americans, though some less consciously than others, all see [a] modicum of economic security as one of the functions to be provided by government. When they get nervous, people start looking for the [safety] net. Yeah, yeah, why should we build an expensive to net to catch those ne’er do wells who are just inferior in moral fiber and self-destruct? Well it's not [for those few] for whom the net is [proposed]. The net’s for you, you and your family.



Socialism is just pooling resources to accomplish things that individuals can't. Capitalism is privatized socialism with a narrowed scope. You're either a socialist or a hermit. Everything else is just degrees. nice summation, hippiefried.

[SarahG]

If you haven’t noticed big government programs (like the program for regime change in Iraq) are not of liberal origin.

Adding to that, FDR's social welfare programs were taken, nearly verbatim, from Otto Von Bismarck.

Bismarck was a neocon, he would have laughed at anyone who called him a liberal.

Alfried Krupp was hugely in favor of some social welfare programs on federal and corporate levels, and he was even more conservative than the Kaiser. To him, giving the poor some social welfare programs keeps them content and stabilized so that they won't go and rebel against the social-economic power structure. His corporate social welfare programs were more advanced, efficient, and large than what most communist countries have historically implemented- with the exception of the postWW1 years it worked flawlessly (and the size of this system in the Rhine can be compared to some small countries).

Charles Schwab, one of our larger steel giants, saw things pretty much the same way, but didn't go nearly as far as Krupp had. Krupp's corporate support had everything imaginable, daycare, hospitals, social welfare programs, paid retirement, retirement homes, schools, disability- and even the Krupp family would personally go out and console employees' families when someone was killed or severely injured on the job.

In return, this not only curbed employee's support of the liberal political party, but in most years, allowed the company to keep people from voting for anyone other than the neo-cons Krupp wanted in office. After WW1 ended and Krupp's workers went violent, it wasn't to bring Russian-flavored socialism or communism to Germany, but actually to go around assassinating public officials who they thought hadn't fulfilled their neo-con duties to the fatherland (returning veterans were also known for this).

But you know how revisionist history goes, now everything that is wrong and evil in America is "all fdr's fault" even when FDR didn't come up with the ideas that are attributed to him :roll: Sigh...

[NYBURBS]

But you know how revisionist history goes, now everything that is wrong and evil in America is "all fdr's fault" even when FDR didn't come up with the ideas that are attributed to him :roll: Sigh...

I don't attribute all of our problems to FDR. There's plenty of others to bang around, especially in the area of foreign policy. I also don't see FDR as the savior that some do. Modern day I see the neo-con and religious wing of the republican party as enemy #1. What I will say about FDR is that he had a big hand in the federal government's transformation from a small minor role in day to day life to a huge influence in all aspects of our lives. Spending a great deal of my time studying constitutional case law for my degree I can tell you that I see that transformation as an unfortunate event for our democracy.

To Trish: The issue with communism now is that the true form requires people to shun their desire for modern amenities and return to a simpler lifestyle (At least from Marx's view of it). This is done so that people may engage in work that brings out their true creativity and passion, something that can not happen if you stay industrialized and people are working on assembly lines. It defeats a basic tenet of what Marx spoke to and is a prime reason why that little social experiment went belly up in the USSR. Industrialization is not going anywhere any time soon.

[trish]

Actually, as you put it, that doesn't sound like the issue with communism now. After all, the communism you describe is belly up. The issue now seems to be the forms that persist; i.e. large corporations and their satellite subsidiaries subsuming the sovereignty of nations, subjugating laborers and middle management alike, milking the planet of its wealth claiming all rights belong to the fittest corporation while demanding of each employee all they can produce and paying each as little as possible.

[hippifried]

Marx was a crackpot. His view comes from a time & place when class was still dictated by birthright & before the rise of the superpowers, which never included Europe. The problem with prognostication is that nobody has a reference point in the future. Same goes for any kind of economic or social preplan. The dynamics always change. That's the only thing you can count on. No matter what the philosophical nonsense, in order to bring any of it to fruition, you always end up with some group of elitists telling you that they could fix everything if they were just installed as rulers.

I can't speak for anyone else, & wouldn't presume to know anyone's mind, but I don't need to be ruled & I'm really getting tired of all the attempts. Hey sheep! That goat with the bell isn't any smarter than you are. Does anyone really believe that folks on the left, aside from the various handfuls that call themselves socialist & both members of the communist party, actually follow Marxist dogma? How many people do you think have ever actually read the Communist Manifesto? I can count 4 or 5 that I've met personally, & I've been around for a while. I can't think of a single "anti-communist".

[NYBURBS]

Actually, as you put it, that doesn't sound like the issue with communism now. After all, the communism you describe is belly up. The issue now seems to be the forms that persist; i.e. large corporations and their satellite subsidiaries subsuming the sovereignty of nations, subjugating laborers and middle management alike, milking the planet of its wealth claiming all rights belong to the fittest corporation while demanding of each employee all they can produce and paying each as little as possible.

Actually I'd refer to that as corporatism but I can understand the comparison. I agree that all of that is an issue, an issue that requires separating the money from the politics which as of yet I don't know of any nation which has succeeded. They use the government as a tool to stifle competition and thus can pull off much of what you wrote. They have altered the ground rules by which we "play" and many people have been hurt by that.

[celticgrafix]

yeh, cause you are too lazy to go out and get a job

[PapaGrande]

But you know how revisionist history goes, now everything that is wrong and evil in America is "all fdr's fault" even when FDR didn't come up with the ideas that are attributed to him :roll: Sigh...

I don't attribute all of our problems to FDR. There's plenty of others to bang around, especially in the area of foreign policy. I also don't see FDR as the savior that some do. Modern day I see the neo-con and religious wing of the republican party as enemy #1. What I will say about FDR is that he had a big hand in the federal government's transformation from a small minor role in day to day life to a huge influence in all aspects of our lives. Spending a great deal of my time studying constitutional case law for my degree I can tell you that I see that transformation as an unfortunate event for our democracy.

To Trish: The issue with communism now is that the true form requires people to shun their desire for modern amenities and return to a simpler lifestyle (At least from Marx's view of it). This is done so that people may engage in work that brings out their true creativity and passion, something that can not happen if you stay industrialized and people are working on assembly lines. It defeats a basic tenet of what Marx spoke to and is a prime reason why that little social experiment went belly up in the USSR. Industrialization is not going anywhere any time soon.

There are numerous books explaining how FDR's New Deal policies made the Great Depression worse and longer than it would have been if things were allowed to correct themselves naturally. He is definitely one of the worst Presidents of all time. That being said Bush has given us the biggest dose of Socialism since FDR, and at least FDR had Nazis to fight in his war, what did Bush give us, two bit thugs like Sadam to waste our money and human lives on.

[PapaGrande]

Actually, as you put it, that doesn't sound like the issue with communism now. After all, the communism you describe is belly up. The issue now seems to be the forms that persist; i.e. large corporations and their satellite subsidiaries subsuming the sovereignty of nations, subjugating laborers and middle management alike, milking the planet of its wealth claiming all rights belong to the fittest corporation while demanding of each employee all they can produce and paying each as little as possible.

Trish, people that advocate true free markets are against Corporatism. Almost every single case when someone is talking about the failure of the "free market" is not really free markets, you will find the hand of government involved one way or another.

Free, as in non-coerced trade is always beneficial to both parties, by definition it cannot be otherwise. Now we may want the deal to be better in our favor, ie, I wish I paid less, or I wish I got more, or in hindsight wish we hadn't made the deal; but that does not change the fact that at the time of the trade we valued A (whatever we got) more than B (whatever we gave up).

[Cuchulain]

Let's see...FDR's New Deal gave us Social Security, the FDIC, The NLRB, which protected workers who wanted to organize for better wages and conditions, Unemployment Insurance, the Rural Electrification Administration, the TVA, the WPA and the CCC at a time when people deperately needed work. He was so beloved that he was elected FOUR times. Yes, he must have been a terrible president.

Oh, and he ended Prohibition :)

[hippifried]

There are numerous books explaining how FDR's New Deal policies made the Great Depression worse and longer than it would have been if things were allowed to correct themselves naturally.
There's always a bunch of books that talk all kinds of smack.

So uh... When exactly was this "correction" going to happen? FDR didn't get elected till 3 years after the crash. Things got worse after that? The crash itself was a correction. While the Wall Streeters & those that pay attention to them exclusively were pretending that everything was peaches 'n cream, the rest of the nation's economy had been depressed for several years before the crash. The "market" was being manipulated. It's being manipulated now.

There's no free market if it's all enslaved to manipulators at the top. Cliche's have their place. But as policy? As the theoretical ideology that drives policy? That doesn't seem to be working. We need a rethink of all the crap we keep getting told.

[NYBURBS]

There are numerous books explaining how FDR's New Deal policies made the Great Depression worse and longer than it would have been if things were allowed to correct themselves naturally.
There's always a bunch of books that talk all kinds of smack.

So uh... When exactly was this "correction" going to happen? FDR didn't get elected till 3 years after the crash. Things got worse after that? The crash itself was a correction. While the Wall Streeters & those that pay attention to them exclusively were pretending that everything was peaches 'n cream, the rest of the nation's economy had been depressed for several years before the crash. The "market" was being manipulated. It's being manipulated now.

There's no free market if it's all enslaved to manipulators at the top. Cliche's have their place. But as policy? As the theoretical ideology that drives policy? That doesn't seem to be working. We need a rethink of all the crap we keep getting told.

I think the manipulation he was referring to was keeping prices artificially high at a time when they needed to come down.

[NYBURBS]

Let's see...FDR's New Deal gave us Social Security, the FDIC, The NLRB, which protected workers who wanted to organize for better wages and conditions, Unemployment Insurance, the Rural Electrification Administration, the TVA, the WPA and the CCC at a time when people deperately needed work. He was so beloved that he was elected FOUR times. Yes, he must have been a terrible president.

Oh, and he ended Prohibition :)

Yes and those are all gross expansions of Federal power. Some might have even been a good idea in one form or another but it wasn't really the place for the national government to do so. Most however really just took money away from you by force of law and gave it to others. Social Security for example, it should be solvent for a long time but it was mismanaged and spent on things other than SS checks for those who paid into the system. There were other policy changes that also damaged that program.

With a few exceptions such as national defense and foreign policy, most things should be handled on a State by State basis. There is much greater democracy the lower in the chain you go and thus people have a much bigger say in which policies are brought to fruition.

[hippifried]

I think the manipulation he was referring to was keeping prices artificially high at a time when they needed to come down.
:?: :?: :?: :?: :?:
Prices were down. The dollar was deflated by the crash. It was taken out of circulation through hoarding at the top. The purchasing power of the dollar went up, but nobody had any money. To circumvent that, FDR devalued the dollar & browbeat businesses to follow the Ford example of raising wages. All the programs he started were geared to getting & keeping money circulating throughout the economy. That's swhat brought us out of the depression.

Prices are artificially high now.

[El Nino]

Obama, continuing to galvanize the warfare/welfare state on the American People.

[Cuchulain]

Let's see...FDR's New Deal gave us Social Security, the FDIC, The NLRB, which protected workers who wanted to organize for better wages and conditions, Unemployment Insurance, the Rural Electrification Administration, the TVA, the WPA and the CCC at a time when people deperately needed work. He was so beloved that he was elected FOUR times. Yes, he must have been a terrible president.

Oh, and he ended Prohibition :)

Yes and those are all gross expansions of Federal power. Some might have even been a good idea in one form or another but it wasn't really the place for the national government to do so. Most however really just took money away from you by force of law and gave it to others. Social Security for example, it should be solvent for a long time but it was mismanaged and spent on things other than SS checks for those who paid into the system. There were other policy changes that also damaged that program.

With a few exceptions such as national defense and foreign policy, most things should be handled on a State by State basis. There is much greater democracy the lower in the chain you go and thus people have a much bigger say in which policies are brought to fruition.

You and I have a fundamental disagreement on the role/purpose of government. That's fine, you seem to be a true conservative and not one of these "Im rich, fuck everybody else" Rethugnicans.

So would you get rid of SS and UC benefits? Disband the NLRB? It still protects workers, at least in a Democratic admin. Would you tear down all the power lines the REA put up? Blow up the TVA dams? I'm not trying to start a fight here; as I said, you seem like a reasonable guy and I'm curious what you think.

I never really got the 'states do things better' thing. They don't have the resources of the national govt. Although I guess if the feds had a lot less money, the states would have more if they raised taxes.

[beandip]

"
What that means plainly is that if Obama becomes president whites will see there wealth stripped from them and transferred to blacks. The only way this could conceivably be done is through tax instituted reparations. "

Actually.... the (bad) joke is on the taxpayers, black and white, brown....all colors.

[beandip]

...but hey, race baiting is so much more fun ;)