Palin Says "Pray Away The Gay"

[chefmike]

There may be hope for you GOP cock weasels out there after all.

You know who you are.

So just keep on praying and voting repug...hopefully things will work out for you hypocrites better than they did for Ted Haggard...


Gov. Sarah Palin's church is promoting a conference that promises to convert gays into heterosexuals through the power of prayer.

"You'll be encouraged by the power of God's love and His desire to transform the lives of those impacted by homosexuality," according to the insert in the bulletin of the Wasilla Bible Church, where Palin has prayed for about six years.

Palin's conservative Christian views have energized that part of the GOP electorate, which was lukewarm to John McCain's candidacy before he named her as his vice presidential choice. She is staunchly anti-abortion, opposing exceptions for rape and incest, and opposes gay marriage and spousal rights for gay couples.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/06/palins-church-promotes-co_n_124536.html

[vietboy]

There may be hope for you GOP cock weasels out there after all.

You know who you are.

So just keep on praying and voting repug...hopefully things will work out for you hypocrites better than they did for Ted Haggard...
BM's are called gay if they do not share the right political opinions.

What a shame.

[AllanahStarrNYC]

There may be hope for you GOP cock weasels out there after all.

You know who you are.

So just keep on praying and voting repug...hopefully things will work out for you hypocrites better than they did for Ted Haggard...
BM's are called gay if they do not share the right political opinions.

What a shame.

Not gay- HYPOCRITES!

WASH THE GAY AWAY, WASH THE GAY AWAY! lmao

That lunatic , fundamentalist Palin. Example of another bush that does need to be in thr white house.

I wish someone would pray for her sanity.

[chefmike]

There may be hope for you GOP cock weasels out there after all.

You know who you are.

So just keep on praying and voting repug...hopefully things will work out for you hypocrites better than they did for Ted Haggard...
BM's are called gay if they do not share the right political opinions.

What a shame.

Not gay- HYPOCRITES!

WASH THE GAY AWAY, WASH THE GAY AWAY! lmao

That lunatic , fundamentalist Palin. Example of another bush that does need to be in thr white house.

I wish someone would pray for her sanity.

Pay no attention to vietboy, Allanah...he's still lamenting the fact that his heroic leader, the right wing religious fanatic Ron Paul, is history.

Boo fucking hoo...

[lumberjack]

Let's see, you pull a story from the Huffington Post, well then it's gotta be true. The Enquirer has more credibility.

[hippifried]

Well here's one for all those republican evangelicals who swear they're straight while hanging out in here.
http://www.narth.com/

[chefmike]

Let's see, you pull a story from the Huffington Post, well then it's gotta be true. The Enquirer has more credibility.

Are you saying the story is false? Maybe you should check the news wires before you do, Jimmy Olsen. Or is it Nancy Drew?

Or are you just worried that your right wing dream gal is a soon to be exposed for the prevaricating wingnut that people in Alaska are already familiar with?

Well?

Enquiring minds want to know...

[Minutemouse9]

http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/index.jhtml?videoId=184084&title=The-Best-F**king-News-Team-Ever---Larry-Craig-Bathroom

[lumberjack]

Are you saying the story is false? Maybe you should check the news wires before you do, Jimmy Olsen. Or is it Nancy Drew?

Or are you just worried that your right wing dream gal is a soon to be exposed for the prevaricating wingnut that people in Alaska are already familiar with?

Well?

Enquiring minds want to know...


Since when did AP not tilt a story?
Now let's apply the same bias to Barack Obama, he's a member of a church where the reverend is an afro centrist hate inciter, well therefore Barack must be a true believer, planning the overthrow of the evil white man.


Chefmike, you are such a true believer, you can't see that both dems & repubs are full of it. Try taking in all sources of news for once and then make up your mind.

The one thing I like about Sarah Palin is she pisses feeble minded fools like you off. Love seeing you work yourself into a lather.

[Stoked]

There may be hope for you GOP cock weasels out there after all.

You know who you are.

So just keep on praying and voting repug...hopefully things will work out for you hypocrites better than they did for Ted Haggard...


Gov. Sarah Palin's church is promoting a conference that promises to convert gays into heterosexuals through the power of prayer.

"You'll be encouraged by the power of God's love and His desire to transform the lives of those impacted by homosexuality," according to the insert in the bulletin of the Wasilla Bible Church, where Palin has prayed for about six years.

Palin's conservative Christian views have energized that part of the GOP electorate, which was lukewarm to John McCain's candidacy before he named her as his vice presidential choice. She is staunchly anti-abortion, opposing exceptions for rape and incest, and opposes gay marriage and spousal rights for gay couples.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/06/palins-church-promotes-co_n_124536.html

Hey, angry dude...

Looks likes NObama is anti gay also!. By your standards, NObama's religious mentors should have you bashing him too, but you wont, or will you? ... at least Palin is up front about it.

"Described in a 2004 Chicago Sun Timesarticle as someone Barack Obama regularly seeks out for “spiritual counsel”, James Meeks, who will serve as an Obama delegate at the 2008 Democratic convention in Denver, is a long-time political ally to the democratic frontrunner.

When Obama ran for the U.S. Senate in 2003, he frequently campaigned at Salem Baptist Church while Rev. Meeks appeared in television ads supporting the Illinois senator’s campaign. Later, according to the same Chicago Sun Timesarticle, on the night after he won the Democratic primary, Sen. Obama attended bible study at Meeks’ church ‘for prayer’ and ‘to say thank you.’

Since that time, not only has Meeks himself served on Obama’s exploratory committee for the presidency and been listed on the Obama’s campaign website as one of the senator’s ‘influential black supporters’, but his church choir was called on to raise their voices in praise at a rally the night Obama announced his run for the White House back in 2007.

…

In the course of July 5, 2006 attack, Rev. James Meeks ranted:

“We don’t have slave masters. We got mayors. But they still the same white people who are presiding over systems where black people are not able, or to be educated.”

“You got some preachers that are house niggers. You got some elected officials that are house niggers. And rather than them trying to break this up, they gonna fight you to protect this white man,” Meeks said in a sermon tape which he later defended in an interview with Chicago CBS2 reporter, Mike Flannery.

…

A spring 2007 newsletter from the Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC) named Meeks one of the “10 leading black religious voices in the anti-gay movement”. The newsletter cites him as both “a key member of Chicago’s ‘Gatekeepers’ network, an interracial group of evangelical ministers who strive to erase the division between church and state” and “a stalwart anti-gay activist… [who]… has used his House of Hope mega-church to launch petition drives for the Illinois Family Institute (IFI), a major state-level ‘family values’ pressure group that lauded him last year for leading African Americans in ‘clearly understanding the threat of gay marriage.’”

[PapaGrande]

There may be hope for you GOP cock weasels out there after all.

You know who you are.

So just keep on praying and voting repug...hopefully things will work out for you hypocrites better than they did for Ted Haggard...


Gov. Sarah Palin's church is promoting a conference that promises to convert gays into heterosexuals through the power of prayer.

"You'll be encouraged by the power of God's love and His desire to transform the lives of those impacted by homosexuality," according to the insert in the bulletin of the Wasilla Bible Church, where Palin has prayed for about six years.

Palin's conservative Christian views have energized that part of the GOP electorate, which was lukewarm to John McCain's candidacy before he named her as his vice presidential choice. She is staunchly anti-abortion, opposing exceptions for rape and incest, and opposes gay marriage and spousal rights for gay couples.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/06/palins-church-promotes-co_n_124536.html

Hey, angry dude...

Looks likes NObama is anti gay also!. By your standards, NObama's religious mentors should have you bashing him too, but you wont, or will you? ... at least Palin is up front about it.

"Described in a 2004 Chicago Sun Timesarticle as someone Barack Obama regularly seeks out for “spiritual counsel”, James Meeks, who will serve as an Obama delegate at the 2008 Democratic convention in Denver, is a long-time political ally to the democratic frontrunner.

When Obama ran for the U.S. Senate in 2003, he frequently campaigned at Salem Baptist Church while Rev. Meeks appeared in television ads supporting the Illinois senator’s campaign. Later, according to the same Chicago Sun Timesarticle, on the night after he won the Democratic primary, Sen. Obama attended bible study at Meeks’ church ‘for prayer’ and ‘to say thank you.’

Since that time, not only has Meeks himself served on Obama’s exploratory committee for the presidency and been listed on the Obama’s campaign website as one of the senator’s ‘influential black supporters’, but his church choir was called on to raise their voices in praise at a rally the night Obama announced his run for the White House back in 2007.

…

In the course of July 5, 2006 attack, Rev. James Meeks ranted:

“We don’t have slave masters. We got mayors. But they still the same white people who are presiding over systems where black people are not able, or to be educated.”

“You got some preachers that are house niggers. You got some elected officials that are house niggers. And rather than them trying to break this up, they gonna fight you to protect this white man,” Meeks said in a sermon tape which he later defended in an interview with Chicago CBS2 reporter, Mike Flannery.

…

A spring 2007 newsletter from the Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC) named Meeks one of the “10 leading black religious voices in the anti-gay movement”. The newsletter cites him as both “a key member of Chicago’s ‘Gatekeepers’ network, an interracial group of evangelical ministers who strive to erase the division between church and state” and “a stalwart anti-gay activist… [who]… has used his House of Hope mega-church to launch petition drives for the Illinois Family Institute (IFI), a major state-level ‘family values’ pressure group that lauded him last year for leading African Americans in ‘clearly understanding the threat of gay marriage.’”

Obama is the second coming, he can do no wrong. Plus he is going to give us all free money!!!!!

[chefmike]

My mind is made up, slick. Anyone who hasn't decided to vote for Obama by now is either totally clueless or a hopeless right wing stooge. Which are you?

[Stoked]

Obama is the second coming, he can do no wrong. Plus he is going to give us all free money!!!!![/b]

Thats the truth of the dems. It's all about the freebies. They want everything given to them, they like being, well... the bottoms, so to speak.

And who can blame them, it easier to be lazy and ask for something from someone who is willing to give it to them. Hence the popularity of the Democratic party.

They become angry and belligerent when someone says no, be responsible for yourself.. be self sufficient, make yourself better, pull yourself out of the bad situation you were dealt, or the shit-hole you made of your life... aspire to live with higher ideals.

And thats where it really falls apart for them... aspiring to higher ideals. They just cant do it. If they did, they wouldnt have any excuses for their poor behavior. Someone would have to hold themselves accountable for their own actions, and we know the liberals dont want to be accountable for anything except taking money away from those who earn it, and redistribute it to themselves. They SAY is for the good of everybody, but in truth, its just to satisfy their lazy asses.

Its like dealing with teenagers, its all about themselves.

[trish]

Thats the truth of the dems. It's all about the freebies.

That's a headscratcher :? It's the republicans who are squealing for tax cuts and tax breaks and no new taxes (all the while we spending money like crazy in Iraq, going in deeper and deeper into multi-trillion dollar debt to communist China). It's Exxon and the lumber companies who have asked for royality free use of public lands; i.e. our lands. Oh and BTW, the first thing Palin did as Gov. was hire a lobbyist to go to Washington and ask for earmarks. She asked for Federal funding for the bridge to nowhere, until it became a national joke. Then she just ask for the money. So the money for the bridge to nowhere actually did wind up in Alaska, but no one had to account for how it was spent. Yep. That's the truth of the repubs. It's all about the freebies.

[Stoked]

Thats the truth of the dems. It's all about the freebies.

That's a headscratcher :? It's the republicans who are squealing for tax cuts and tax breaks and no new taxes (all the while we spending money like crazy in Iraq, going in deeper and deeper into multi-trillion dollar debt to communist China). It's Exxon and the lumber companies who have asked for royality free use of public lands; i.e. our lands. Oh and BTW, the first thing Palin did as Gov. was hire a lobbyist to go to Washington and ask for earmarks. She asked for Federal funding for the bridge to nowhere, until it became a national joke. Then she just ask for the money. So the money for the bridge to nowhere actually did wind up in Alaska, but no one had to account for how it was spent. Yep. That's the truth of the repubs. It's all about the freebies.

Tax cuts and tax breaks end up in YOUR pocket Trish, not the governments. It means YOU Trish get to decide where YOUR money goes.

Tell us Trish, would rather have a POLITICIAN decide where to spend YOUR cash? Are you not CAPABLE of deciding HOW to spend YOUR money?

[trish]

It's you guys shouting:

PROTECT ME, PROTECT ME, FROM THE BIG BAD MUSLIMS. BUT FOR GOD'S SAKE DO IT FOR FREE, DON'T TAX ME!!!

Look. Government provides us with the infrastructure that makes modern commerce and modern life possible. Business would be impossible to conduct without the federal highway system, the monetary system, the judicial system to settle contract disputes etc. etc. I pay taxes patriotically. It’s not my money, it’s money I owe to my country to keep it one among the best nations in the world.

[yodajazz]

Obama is the second coming, he can do no wrong. Plus he is going to give us all free money!!!!!

Thats the truth of the dems. It's all about the freebies. They want everything given to them, they like being, well... the bottoms, so to speak.

And who can blame them, it easier to be lazy and ask for something from someone who is willing to give it to them. Hence the popularity of the Democratic party.

They become angry and belligerent when someone says no, be responsible for yourself.. be self sufficient, make yourself better, pull yourself out of the bad situation you were dealt, or the shit-hole you made of your life... aspire to live with higher ideals.

And thats where it really falls apart for them... aspiring to higher ideals. They just cant do it. If they did, they wouldnt have any excuses for their poor behavior. Someone would have to hold themselves accountable for their own actions, and we know the liberals dont want to be accountable for anything except taking money away from those who earn it, and redistribute it to themselves. They SAY is for the good of everybody, but in truth, its just to satisfy their lazy asses.

Its like dealing with teenagers, its all about themselves.

So Democrats are lazy!? Listen to yourself.

Popular vote, 62040610, 59028444. Percentage, 50.7%, 48.3%. United States presidential election, 2004. Presidential election

One of the Democratic party's constituencies is labor. So are you saying that American labor is lazy? I don't think you mean that they are. "Lazy" is another one of those code words which is really directed at a certain ethnic group.

But parties and ethnic groups aside; why do lobbyists exist? Is it because major institutions, like the banking industry for example are lazy? I believe that they lobby for all kinds of things like tax breaks for certain activities and favorable legislation. But I don't believe that you are talking about the lobbyist who have direct access to our government officials.

Stoked, you seem to have a lot of negative energy directed toward the poor. More than half of each tax dollar goes to war and military expenditures, but I don't recall you complaining about the effects of war. When you applauded the person that said, "that money was being taking from the brgihtest and the best and given to those who don't deserve it", I have a strong feeling that you were thinking about a certain ethnic group and not the 1/2 trillion plus we have spent 'on the people of Iraq'.

I would bet my life that someone whose family once received food stamps grew up and is now in Iraq putting their lives on the line and dying for you. African American women, make up over half of the women in the arm forces, I heard the late Stephanie Tubbs Jones say. I would bet that some of those women came from poor backgrounds given the percentages of African Americans below the poverty line. Yet you begrudge what may have been given to any them, if they were poor, referring to the parents as "lazy assed".

I didn't call you a racist becuase I wanted to insult you. I'm just calling it as I see it, and I have seen a lot of life.

By the way, I don't think that anyone is saying that Obama can do no wrong. Most people would say they believe that he, and a Democratic aministration can do a better job than the one done previous eight years. It's not just about George Bush and Dick Cheney. It's a whole Republican adminstration and party which supported him, until evidence of disaster was overwhelming.

[hangman]

There may be hope for you GOP cock weasels out there after all.

You know who you are.

So just keep on praying and voting repug...hopefully things will work out for you hypocrites better than they did for Ted Haggard...


Gov. Sarah Palin's church is promoting a conference that promises to convert gays into heterosexuals through the power of prayer.

"You'll be encouraged by the power of God's love and His desire to transform the lives of those impacted by homosexuality," according to the insert in the bulletin of the Wasilla Bible Church, where Palin has prayed for about six years.

Palin's conservative Christian views have energized that part of the GOP electorate, which was lukewarm to John McCain's candidacy before he named her as his vice presidential choice. She is staunchly anti-abortion, opposing exceptions for rape and incest, and opposes gay marriage and spousal rights for gay couples.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/06/palins-church-promotes-co_n_124536.html

I assume you didn't tell the whole story because (i) it contradicts the point you were trying to make, and (ii) you counted on no one to read what the story actually said. To assist everyone I have quoted part of the cited story:

"Palin, campaigning with McCain in the Midwest on Friday, has not publicly expressed a view on the so-called "pray away the gay" movement. Larry Kroon, senior pastor at Palin's church, was not available to discuss the matter Friday, said a church worker who declined to give her name.

Gay activists in Alaska said Palin has not worked actively against their interests, but early in her administration she supported a bill to overrule a court decision to block state benefits for gay partners of public employees. At the time, less than one-half of 1 percent of state employees had applied for the benefits, which were ordered by a 2005 ruling by the Alaska Supreme Court.

Palin reversed her position and vetoed the bill after the state attorney general said it was unconstitutional."

Quit spreading such misinformation.

[chefmike]

There may be hope for you GOP cock weasels out there after all.

You know who you are.

So just keep on praying and voting repug...hopefully things will work out for you hypocrites better than they did for Ted Haggard...


Gov. Sarah Palin's church is promoting a conference that promises to convert gays into heterosexuals through the power of prayer.

"You'll be encouraged by the power of God's love and His desire to transform the lives of those impacted by homosexuality," according to the insert in the bulletin of the Wasilla Bible Church, where Palin has prayed for about six years.

Palin's conservative Christian views have energized that part of the GOP electorate, which was lukewarm to John McCain's candidacy before he named her as his vice presidential choice. She is staunchly anti-abortion, opposing exceptions for rape and incest, and opposes gay marriage and spousal rights for gay couples.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/06/palins-church-promotes-co_n_124536.html


Gay activists in Alaska said Palin has not worked actively against their interests, but early in her administration she supported a bill to overrule a court decision to block state benefits for gay partners of public employees. At the time, less than one-half of 1 percent of state employees had applied for the benefits, which were ordered by a 2005 ruling by the Alaska Supreme Court.

Palin reversed her position and vetoed the bill after the state attorney general said it was unconstitutional."

So Palin the bible-banging book-banning right wing wet dream was forced to veto the bill after she found out it was unconstitutional? How very enlightened of her. :roll:

McCain Selects Anti-Gay Palin as VP Running Mate
http://www.gayagenda.com/2008/08/mccain-selects-anti-gay-palin-as-vp-running-mate/

Palin's Church May Have Shaped Controversial Worldview
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/02/palins-church-may-have-sh_n_123205.html

[hangman]

There may be hope for you GOP cock weasels out there after all.

You know who you are.

So just keep on praying and voting repug...hopefully things will work out for you hypocrites better than they did for Ted Haggard...


Gov. Sarah Palin's church is promoting a conference that promises to convert gays into heterosexuals through the power of prayer.

"You'll be encouraged by the power of God's love and His desire to transform the lives of those impacted by homosexuality," according to the insert in the bulletin of the Wasilla Bible Church, where Palin has prayed for about six years.

Palin's conservative Christian views have energized that part of the GOP electorate, which was lukewarm to John McCain's candidacy before he named her as his vice presidential choice. She is staunchly anti-abortion, opposing exceptions for rape and incest, and opposes gay marriage and spousal rights for gay couples.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/06/palins-church-promotes-co_n_124536.html


Gay activists in Alaska said Palin has not worked actively against their interests, but early in her administration she supported a bill to overrule a court decision to block state benefits for gay partners of public employees. At the time, less than one-half of 1 percent of state employees had applied for the benefits, which were ordered by a 2005 ruling by the Alaska Supreme Court.

Palin reversed her position and vetoed the bill after the state attorney general said it was unconstitutional."

So Palin the bible-banging book-banning right wing wet dream was forced to veto the bill after she found out it was unconstitutional? How very enlightened of her. :roll:

McCain Selects Anti-Gay Palin as VP Running Mate
http://www.gayagenda.com/2008/08/mccain-selects-anti-gay-palin-as-vp-running-mate/

Palin's Church May Have Shaped Controversial Worldview
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/02/palins-church-may-have-sh_n_123205.html

You come across as if you think yourself intelligent. You aren't.

As governor she supported the enactment of a bill that would have superceded a court ruling that struck down a gay partner's rights to state benefits. However, after the state attorney general informed her the bill was unconstitutional she vetoed it. It is wrong for a governor to approve a bill she knows to be unconstitutional. What can't you understand?

[trish]

As governor she supported the enactment of a bill that would have superceded a court ruling that struck down a gay partner's rights to state benefits.

I thought you said gays have all the rights you do?

[chefmike]

You come across as if you think yourself intelligent. You aren't.

She vetoed the bill because she realized she had to. It doesn't change the fact that she's a batshit crazy bible-banging book-banning backwoods bitch.

You also come across as someone who doesn't realize that your BS talking points from Limbaugh, Hannity et al are an obviously desperate attempt to prop up McSame's pathetic wingnut of a VP choice. Lots of luck, zippy.

[hangman]

As governor she supported the enactment of a bill that would have superceded a court ruling that struck down a gay partner's rights to state benefits.

I thought you said gays have all the rights you do?

What I said is that gays have the same Constitutional rights that all other persons have. There is a difference between rights provided under the federal Constitution and rights provided by state law. Although I am not familiar with this case, presumably an Alaska state court held that a partner of a gay state employee was not entitled to state funded benefits.

[hangman]

You come across as if you think yourself intelligent. You aren't.

She vetoed the bill because she realized she had to. It doesn't change the fact that she's a batshit crazy bible-banging book-banning backwoods bitch.

You also come across as someone who doesn't realize that your BS talking points from Limbaugh, Hannity et al are an obviously desperate attempt to prop up McSame's pathetic wingnut of a VP choice. Lots of luck, zippy.

Hey Brainiac -

Try to read more critically. She wanted to enact the legislation that HELPED the partner of a gay state employee. She reluctantly vetoed the bill on the advice of Alaska's attorney general.

Who needs to listen to Rush Limbaugh or Sean Hannity? Think critically and you will see that the Republican party's platform provides the best path to success for you and your family.

Thanks for you offer of luck, but I don't need it. Neither do McCain or Palin. They will be your next president and vice-president.

[trish]

think critically.
the Republican party's platform provides the best path to success for you and your family.
think critically.
the Republican party's platform provides the best path to success for you and your family.
think critically.
think critically.
the Republician party's platform provide the best path.
the best path.
the very best path,
for you
and your family.
you and your family.

[Stoked]

think critically.
the Republican party's platform provides the best path to success for you and your family.
think critically.
the Republican party's platform provides the best path to success for you and your family.
think critically.
think critically.
the Republician party's platform provide the best path.
the best path.
the very best path,
for you
and your family.
you and your family.

Nice trish... a baby step but a step just the same.

[InHouston]

And then you have Obama's pastor promoting the following "Black Value System". This is straight off their website.
************************************************** ******
http://www.trinitychicago.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=114
************************************************** ******

Disavowal of the Pursuit of "Middleclassness."

Classic methodology on control of captives teaches that captors must be able to identify the "talented tenth" of those subjugated, especially those who show promise of providing the kind of leadership that might threaten the captor's control.

Those so identified are separated from the rest of the people by:

Killing them off directly, and/or fostering a social system that encourages them to kill off one another.

Placing them in concentration camps, and/or structuring an economic environment that induces captive youth to fill the jails and prisons.

Seducing them into a socioeconomic class system which, while training them to earn more dollars, hypnotizes them into believing they are better than others and teaches them to think in terms of "we" and "they" instead of "us."

So, while it is permissible to chase "middleclassness" with all our might, we must avoid the third separation method - the psychological entrapment of Black "middleclassness." If we avoid this snare, we will also diminish our "voluntary" contributions to methods A and B. And more importantly, Black people no longer will be deprived of their birthright: the leadership, resourcefulness and example of their own talented persons.
Pledge to Make the Fruits of All Developing and Acquired Skills Available to the Black Community.

Pledge to Allocate Regularly, a Portion of Personal Resources for Strengthening and Supporting Black Institutions.
Pledge Allegiance to All Black Leadership Who Espouse and Embrace the Black Value System.
Personal Commitment to Embracement of the Black Value System. To measure the worth and validity of all activity in terms of positive contributions to the general welfare of the Black Community and the Advancement of Black People towards freedom.

[trish]

If you believe in guilt by association don't forget about the McCain endorsed pastors who prayed for rain to drench the democratic convention. Not that it's such a despicable prayer, as much it shows how ridiculous McCain's supporters and by association McCain himself is.

[InHouston]

If you believe in guilt by association don't forget about the McCain endorsed pastors who prayed for rain to drench the democratic convention. Not that it's such a despicable prayer, as much it shows how ridiculous McCain's supporters and by association McCain himself is.

I don't believe in guilt by association. What I do believe is that Palin and Obama's churches are two classic examples of how silly and ignorant religion is. You have Palin's church, with young and able-minded teenagers looking rather medieval flopping around the floor possessed by the Holy Spirit. Then you have Jeremiah Wright’s flock that appear post-medieval, yet seem stuck in a 1968 civil rights mentality.

[trish]

True enough. You never heard me criticize Palin for the views of her church. Just those views she herself espouses. Her views on creationism, stem cell research, a woman's right to choose (all intimately related issues) are on record. They just happen to also be the views of her silly church.

[InHouston]

True enough. You never heard me criticize Palin for the views of her church. Just those views she herself espouses. Her views on creationism, stem cell research, a woman's right to choose (all intimately related issues) are on record. They just happen to also be the views of her silly church.

For the record.

I support stem cell research.

I believe in a woman's right to choose.

Creationism should not be taught in schools. Evolution and Natural Selection address the origins of life. They do teach students about the Big Bang Theory, and in my opinion with not enough emphais on the fact that it is a 'theory'. I believe the Big Bang is science's own form of creationism, and that it is probably dead wrong.

[trish]

I disagree with you about the Big Bang being a kind of "creationism". We'll have to do that in another thread sometime.

[PapaGrande]

If you believe in guilt by association don't forget about the McCain endorsed pastors who prayed for rain to drench the democratic convention. Not that it's such a despicable prayer, as much it shows how ridiculous McCain's supporters and by association McCain himself is.

You mean to tell me you don't see any difference in some pastor from a church that McCain doesn't go to, that McCain doesn't have strong ties too endorsing him is the same thing as Obama Church and pastor? A church Obama actually attended for how many years? A pastor that Obama called a close friend and spiritual mentor. Obama's church and pastor didnt turn radical overnight.

Let me stop here and say I think all religion is bunk, but anyone with an ounce of objectivity can see these two situations are not remotely similar.

[trish]

Who here has the same political perspectives as their preacher, pastor, reverend etc.? Who here gives a damn whether their pastor is a democrat, a republican or a some kind of nutcase libertarian? Who here has chosen the church they attend every Sunday because of the pastor who preaches there? Who chose their particular place of worship because of the programs and works it performs? Who chose the their place of worship based on denomination and proximity to home? Who honestly and truely thinks there is any connection between a person's politics and the politics of that person's pastor?

While we're on the subject of religion, does anyone know why at the ripe age of seventy two, McCain had a spiritual revelation and changed his faith from Episcopalian to Southern Baptist? That's no trivial switcheroo. Was it an honest conversion, or a conversion of political convenience? Does religion really matter to McCain or is he just another asshole exploiting the idiots who still believe in MiddleEastern desert gods?

[PapaGrande]

Who here has the same political perspectives as their preacher, pastor, reverend etc.? Who here gives a damn whether their pastor is a democrat, a republican or a some kind of nutcase libertarian? Who here has chosen the church they attend every Sunday because of the pastor who preaches there? Who chose their particular place of worship because of the programs and works it performs? Who chose the their place of worship based on denomination and proximity to home? Who honestly and truely thinks there is any connection between a person's politics and the politics of that person's pastor?

While we're on the subject of religion, does anyone know why at the ripe age of seventy two, McCain had a spiritual revelation and changed his faith from Episcopalian to Southern Baptist? That's no trivial switcheroo. Was it an honest conversion, or a conversion of political convenience? Does religion really matter to McCain or is he just another asshole exploiting the idiots who still believe in MiddleEastern desert gods?

Come on, its not like Obama was just going down to the local church on the corner. People do pick churches based on the pastors, thats a large part how these mega churches and influential religious leaders gain power.
Trinity Union Church did/does have what I consider some non-mainstream views, and its a large church, so again, its not just like Obama was going down to the local church on the corner, and to suggest his 20 year membership at this church is just the same as some right wing pastor, from a church McCain doesn't attend, endorsing McCain. If you went to church and continuously heard things you disagreed with, wouldn't you find another church, or question your religion in general? Obama's story on this just doesn't make sense to me. Maybe I'm a total cynic, but it seems to me Obama chose this church partially to gain credibility within the black community in Chicago. From a Time article:
"With his charismatic leadership, and unapologetic (sometimes angry) rhetoric, Wright struck a chord with many of this city's growing black middle class. One of them, a young, relatively unknown community organizer named Barack Obama, joined Trinity in the mid-1980s, finding both a spiritual home and a useful entree into Chicago's black political elite. Obama soon came to view Wright as something of a father figure. Wright ended up consecrating Obama's wedding to Michelle Robinson, baptizing the couple's children, and even provided the title to his best-selling memoir, The Audacity of Hope."

Personally I think the attacks on Obama for Trinity were somewhat overblown, but I would have had more respect for him if he would have stuck by his church, if it was so important to him.

I don't know enough about the various Christian sects to know if McCains change is a big deal, but it very well could be politically motivated. So McCain and Obama both switched churches when it was politically convenient for them. What this tells us is they are both politicians first.
Politicians on both side use religion, in the positive and negative context to either gain favor, or spread fear with voters.

[trish]

Some people pick their church for the pastor, I'll agree. But most don't. Some people pick their church for because they wish to support the particular missions of that church (i.e. the soup kitchens, providing clothes and shelter for the poor of a particular set of neighborhoods). Obama did. But most people don't. Most people choose their church based on denomination and proximity. Their pastors are their "spiritual leaders" but given how pastors are chosen, the phrase is rather lacking in meaning. Most people are married by their pastors and buried by them. But they don't necessarily vote like them.

Obama, a top graduate of Harvard Law, gave up a dozen dozen top paying job offers to go to Chicago to do community organizing after a multitude of plant closings there. He chose his church for the works it was performing. No "editorialist", whether they're run in the Times or not, is in a position to contradict Obama's stated motivations.

Obama quit trinity for two reasons. He disliked much of what Wright was spewing and he was under enormous political pressure to sever that tie. No one reason would've sufficient. He left Trinity church, but as far as I know that's not the same as changing denominations which is what McCain did. People leave their churches for lots of reasons (greater or lesser) all the time. They get a job and they move, for just one example. Leaving your church is no big deal. Changing your denomination, say from Episcopalian to Southern Baptist would require more of a spiritual journey. Did McCain take that journey? Or did he fake that journey?

[PapaGrande]

Some people pick their church for the pastor, I'll agree. But most don't. Some people pick their church for because they wish to support the particular missions of that church (i.e. the soup kitchens, providing clothes and shelter for the poor of a particular set of neighborhoods). Obama did. But most people don't. Most people choose their church based on denomination and proximity. Their pastors are their "spiritual leaders" but given how pastors are chosen, the phrase is rather lacking in meaning. Most people are married by their pastors and buried by them. But they don't necessarily vote like them.

Obama, a top graduate of Harvard Law, gave up a dozen dozen top paying job offers to go to Chicago to do community organizing after a multitude of plant closings there. He chose his church for the works it was performing. No "editorialist", whether they're run in the Times or not, is in a position to contradict Obama's stated motivations.

Obama quit trinity for two reasons. He disliked much of what Wright was spewing and he was under enormous political pressure to sever that tie. No one reason would've sufficient. He left Trinity church, but as far as I know that's not the same as changing denominations which is what McCain did. People leave their churches for lots of reasons (greater or lesser) all the time. They get a job and they move, for just one example. Leaving your church is no big deal. Changing your denomination, say from Episcopalian to Southern Baptist would require more of a spiritual journey. Did McCain take that journey? Or did he fake that journey?

How different can it be? Its not like he changed to Jehovah's Witness or Mormonism, or something that has a significant difference from other Christian branches. Are Episcopalian and Southern Baptist that different?

Anyway it all seems very convenient for Obama to just happened to chose that church, as if that was the only church doing social work, and then quit the church when it became a political liability. Like I said I would have more respect for Obama if he would have stayed and defended his church, but obviously his move wasn't aimed at someone like me, but mainstream voters that actually think a Pastor saying 9-11 was a result of our foreign policy is "radical", and get scared by all the black people talk.

I'm not suggesting Obama didn't care about the work the church was doing, or his community organizing, just that he may have also chosen it to help further his political career.

I think its sad that religion plays such an important role in our politics, personally I think Romney would have made a better president than McCain, but I guess Mormon aint Christian enough for a large chunk of Republican primary voters.

[trish]

The Episcopal Church is the direct American offshoot of the Anglican Church. In creed, ritual and belief they are as close to Catholic as protestantism gets. The Southern Baptists are of the Anabaptist lineage. My understanding is that for Souther Baptists, belief in the Apostles' Creed is not necessary for the salvation. Those born into Southern Baptism probably never really think about the creed and what's in it. But I would presume that someone who switches from the Episcopal Denomination to Southern Baptism (for reasons other than marriage) has a intellectual or spiritual objection to the content of the Apostles' Creed.

I believe in God, the Father Almighty,

maker of heaven and earth.

And in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord,

who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died and was buried.
He descended into hell.
The third day He rose again from the dead.
He ascended into heaven
and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty.
From thence He will come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit,

the holy Christian Church,

the communion of saints,

the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting. Amen.

I'd be curious to know to what in the creed McCain objects.

As I've said above: leaving one's place of worship is not at all like leaving one's denomination.

[LIYankees]

lol. gotta love creationists

[LIYankees]

True enough. You never heard me criticize Palin for the views of her church. Just those views she herself espouses. Her views on creationism, stem cell research, a woman's right to choose (all intimately related issues) are on record. They just happen to also be the views of her silly church.

For the record.

I support stem cell research.

I believe in a woman's right to choose.

Creationism should not be taught in schools. Evolution and Natural Selection address the origins of life. They do teach students about the Big Bang Theory, and in my opinion with not enough emphais on the fact that it is a 'theory'. I believe the Big Bang is science's own form of creationism, and that it is probably dead wrong.

lol the big bang theory isn't the issue, its evolution. It is ridiculous how much religion comes into play. It is so damn useless. Any notions on our creation that started prior to darwinian theories are moot. It is evolution that should be taught in detail.

[LIYankees]

While we're on the subject of religion, does anyone know why at the ripe age of seventy two, McCain had a spiritual revelation and changed his faith from Episcopalian to Southern Baptist? That's no trivial switcheroo. Was it an honest conversion, or a conversion of political convenience? Does religion really matter to McCain or is he just another asshole exploiting the idiots who still believe in MiddleEastern desert gods?
You hit the nail on the head. Fact of the matter is, a large number of politicians are atheist, agnostic at the very least. It is astounding how religion plays such a major role in our "secular" nation. Our founding fathers did not believe in a deity, and I am sure they are turning in their graves.

Food for thought: A persons religiosity is negatively correlated with education (more educated people are less likely to be religious). Religiosity is also negatively correlated with interest in science and political liberalism.

[chefmike]

Bottom line. The GOP has sold it's political soul to the Religious Wrong. They forbade McSame from giving Ridge or Lieberman the nod due to their pro-choice views.

[LIYankees]

Bottom line. The GOP has sold it's political soul to the Religious Wrong. They forbade McSame from giving Ridge or Lieberman the nod due to their pro-choice views.
lol again, the sweet irony of what our supposed secular state has turned into.

drafted and signed by Washington and Adams:
"As the government of the united states of america is not, in any sense, founded on the christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Musselmen; and as the said states never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."
The opening words of this quote would cause uproar in today's washington.


The paradox is how the United states, foudned in secularism, is now the mos religious country in Christendom while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least. There are theories as to why this is. One is that we are a country of immigrants who could have embraced a church as a kind of kin-substitute on alien soil. The other major theory is since America is legally secular, religion has become free enterprise. Rival churches compete for congregations with all the aggressive hard-sell techniques of the marketplace. What works for anything else in our free market works for religion.

[chefmike]

Rival churches compete for congregations with all the aggressive hard-sell techniques of the marketplace. What works for anything else in our free market works for religion.

It's a license to steal and it always has been. Even the cult of scientology is tax-exempt. WTF?

[trish]

By exempting religious institutions from paying taxes, the State, in effect, establishes what counts as a religion and what does not. The State establishes a religion whenever it grants tax exemption status to a church. This, to my mind, is against the establishment clause. Tax churches.

[hippifried]

By exempting religious institutions from paying taxes, the State, in effect, establishes what counts as a religion and what does not. The State establishes a religion whenever it grants tax exemption status to a church. This, to my mind, is against the establishment clause. Tax churches.
This is a common misconception. You don't get exempt just by being a religious institution. You have to prove your non-profit status. The various churches would love it if that was the case, but it just isn't. Churches get nailed for tax infractions all the time. You also don't have to be a religious institution to get the exemption.

[trish]

Good to know. I take it you're claiming that being a religious institution is absolutely irrelevant to the IRS's considerations of a church's tax status?

[hippifried]

Good to know. I take it you're claiming that being a religious institution is absolutely irrelevant to the IRS's considerations of a church's tax status?
Quote me all you like. I don't mind. Just don't put words in my mouth.

So... No! That's not my claim at all. Being a religious institution gives you a leg up because the finances of the entire religious community are geared to working the exemption. If you call the IRS & say "Hi, we're starting up a new church...", they'll automatically make an assumption & send you everything you need to file for tax exempt status. Why else would you call? They don't care who you are or what you worship. They only care that the forms are filled out properly & all the rules are followed, & the forms showing that you're following the rules are filed on time. There's lots of rules. Volumes of rules. Tomes of rules. The assumption of you're desire is automatic. The exemption is not. It's always nice to have some lawyers & accountants among the parishioners.