Barack Oboma or Noboma which do you choose?

[strokeitnow]

After reviewing the new Oboma tax proposal plan I am left with the feeling that it no longer makes sense for myself to work. Granted I am fortunate in that my working passion provides a very comfortable living. However, under the new tax proposals outlined by Oboma my federal tax rate would be somewhere near 60%. That is federal tax only. With state and social security I would be taking home roughly 25% of my gross income. Are others on this board feeling the same? If so let me hear your thoughts.

At this point in time my vote is Noboma.

[strokeitnow]

wow, i guess the mods are into paying a lot of taxes

[trish]

25% of what, strokie?

[El Nino]

Obama= the Neo-Tyranny, with a fresh face. He is Pathological, over-joyed in immense power and worldly fame and could care less about what the Constitution, so clearly states. He would be better off applying to clown school than for the President of the USA. Oh yeah, McCain's no better.

NOBOMBA.

[strokeitnow]

All, I am pretty much in agreement that the last 8 years could have gone a little smoother. As for Mc Cain I am not really a fan either. I guess for me is comes down to the lesser of two evils. Maybe a vote for Johnny Walker Black Label is in order.

Trish, as for the 25% I don't really like to share my personal finances. But having said that I could still do pretty much anything I wanted to do at anytime...

Let's keep the thoughts coming.. this is interesting stuff at least for me..

[trish]

But having said that I could still do pretty much anything I wanted to do at anytime...

Good for you. Glad you're set. That's all that counts after all.

[El Nino]

The value of the dollar is depleting at a significant rate. This is not good for anybody financially in this country unless you have invested in other commodities. Because of this, our savings are being stolen from us in large part due to federal reserve (nothing federal about it) induced inflation and a FIAT monetary system gone awry. Even all those Wall St. yuppies who think they are doing great right now ought to be concerned when the final plunge ensues and their millions become worthless, the banks cave in and people are standing in bread lines half a mile long. Think it can't happen again? Look at the latest financial trends and inflation rates. Demand that the government start printing their own money again! Save your commodities and abolish private banking cartels.

[chefmike]

It's about time that the BushInc. crowd lost their undeserved tax cuts and started paying their fair share. Go whine to Rush. I'm sure he feels your pain.

[strokeitnow]

With all due respect chefmike I have been paying my fair share for years. the gov't takes 40% of mine up front and I still have to kick in well over $100K in april.. what do i get for that? security knowing that some lazy ass has food on their plate because I work like a dog... now barack says even that is not enough.. i don't think so.. he thinks he knows how to spend my money better that I do. I got news for Noboma... get your money from the people on govt subsidy that sit around all day on their dead asses and wait for the checks to roll in

taxes should be a flat rate for all.. that is equality and change... the only thing Noboma knows about change is that after all he takes from me he still wants the change left in my pocket...

[trish]

what do i get for that?

You get government mints and a monetary system without which business would be very difficult to conduct. You get a court system that guarantees the contracts you make with other businesses are binding. You get a federal transportation system without which it would be difficult for most businesses to make a dime. You get a food and drug administration that makes sure the food you eat isn’t loaded with carcinogens and the pharmaceuticals you buy are safe and effective. You get a military that’s second to none. You get an energy commission that regulates power and nuclear wastes. Etc.

For you local dollar you get judges, police, a fire department, a zoning commission, schools, parks etc.

First let’s just look at police and fire. If your house is robbed or if your house burned down, you’d lose (given what you tell us) considerably more than the average citizen. If your home is worth more than just the average home times the ratio of your income to the average income, then you should pay more than the average Joe in taxes. You get more protection, you pay more for it.

Next, businesses and corporations depend on and use, more than anyone else, the monetary system, the judicial system and the federal highway system to name just three. That's all right. One of the purposes of government is to encourage and maintain a healthy economy. Corporate lobbies are constantly vigilent that government lives up to that responsibility. But the taxes corporations pay should reflect both their use of those public services and the benefits they gain from those uses. There are no "self made men". Without government no one would make a dime.

[strokeitnow]

Trish, all well and good but everyone who is a US citizen gets those same benefits.

Why should I have to pay more for the benefits?

Simply unfair to charge myself more because I can afford to pay it.

Noboma in 208

[trish]

Trish, all well and good but everyone who is a US citizen gets those same benefits.

Of course that's just false. Read my post above more carefully, or just think about it. Businesses benefit much more from having a stable monetary system in place than a job hold below the poverty line. Businesses and corporations not only use but depend for their survival on the federal highway system and other infrastructure provided by government agencies. Their use and benefits do not equal that of an average citizen.

If you're a business owner or a stock owner, my tax dollar subsidizes your business and the business in which you're invested.

By supporting the flat tax you've already conceded it's fair for you to pay more than someone with less taxable income. Why should you think its fair? Because you make larger use of government services and gain larger benefits.

To argue that a flat tax is most equitable, you have to prove the unlikely proposition that generally uses, benefits and cost to the commons are proportional to taxable ncome.

[Gh0strider]

How are you figuring a tax rate of 75%. I have looked at is tax plan and even though it is repressive even for the top income bracket, I do not calculate a tax rate of 75%

[Cuchulain]

The flat tax is just another Reichwing scam. It's effectively regressive. People who make less can't afford to pay the same % of income in tax as their wealthier fellow citizens. Let's set the rate at an arbitrary 50%: If you make $1 million and pay $500k in taxes, you still have $500k. If you make $50k and pay $25k in tax, you're left with $25k. Get the picture?

"The man of great wealth owes a peculiar obligation to the State because he derives special advantages from the mere existence of government--not the least of which is the protection the State gives him." - Teddy Roosevelt

"Another means of silently lessening the inequality of property is to exempt all from taxation below a certain point, and to tax the higher portions of property in geometrical progression as they rise." - Thomas Jefferson

[NYBURBS]

The flat tax is just another Reichwing scam. It's effectively regressive. People who make less can't afford to pay the same % of income in tax as their wealthier fellow citizens. Let's set the rate at an arbitrary 50%: If you make $1 million and pay $500k in taxes, you still have $500k. If you make $50k and pay $25k in tax, you're left with $25k. Get the picture?

It's not really quite so simple. First of all, what is your definition of wealthy? With the federal tax set as it is, a person living in suburban NY tends to pay more in income tax than a similarly situated person in say the suburbs of a mid-western state. The wages tend to be quite a bit higher in NY, but the cost of living is also tremendously higher. Person (A) in NY makes 90,000 dollars a year and has to now pay a larger percentage in taxes than Person (B) from the Mid-West who made 70,000 dollars, even though their standard of living is relatively the same.

I don't know that a flat tax is the answer, but I do know that this current system is far from equitable. Further, this notion that we need to hammer people that we consider wealthy is just downright silly. There are a lot of loopholes and tax breaks that the mega-rich get, and that should be addressed. However, most people that get hit over the head by the current tax system are simply hard working people trying to achieve something worthwhile. That should be encouraged, not punished.

[Cuchulain]

Person (A) in NY makes 90,000 dollars a year and has to now pay a larger percentage in taxes than Person (B) from the Mid-West who made 70,000 dollars, even though their standard of living is relatively the same.
A reasonable point, but it doesn't change the fact that a flat tax is regressive in application.


I do know that this current system is far from equitable
Agreed. It needs a lot of work from calm, sensible people (dunno where we'll find THEM ) to make it fair to all and balance the needs of society.


this notion that we need to hammer people that we consider wealthy
I'm not looking to hammer anybody (well, I'd gleefully 'hammer' Hannity, Billo or Limbaugh until they were bloody pulp, but I digress...). Those who get more from society should give more back, but not to the point of unfairness. A sane progressive income tax is a building block for the middle class, a hand up to the poor and fair to the luckiest among us.

Do we want to live in a 'we' society, where we're all in this together or in a 'me' society where it's every man for himself and devil take the hindmost?

[hippifried]

Do we want to live in a 'we' society, where we're all in this together or in a 'me' society where it's every man for himself and devil take the hindmost?
There's no such thing as a "me society". It's an either/or thing. Even in a pride, the lion (who did nothing to make the kill) eats first because he's bigger & badder. But he doesn't take or hoard it all, & he doesn't let the hyenas interfere with the feeding by the rest of the pride. Everybody does what they're supposed to & everybody shares in the reward. That's society at its most basic. Singular egoism is anathema to social order.

[Cuchulain]

Even in a pride, the lion (who did nothing to make the kill) eats first because he's bigger & badder. But he doesn't take or hoard it all, & he doesn't let the hyenas interfere with the feeding by the rest of the pride. Everybody does what they're supposed to & everybody shares in the reward. That's society at its most basic.
So to follow your pride of lions analogy, human society at its most basic would be the serfs eating the scraps from the king's table?


Singular egoism is anathema to social order.
Tell that to Dubya.

[hippifried]

So to follow your pride of lions analogy, human society at its most basic would be the serfs eating the scraps from the king's table?
But they still get the scraps, & the king protects them while they eat. When you disolve the responsibilities, there's no more society at all. Without social order of some sort, we don't even survive as a species. The egoist mindset isn't just antisocial. It's self destructive, & therefore, insane by definition.


Tell that to Dubya.
Why? Been trying, but he doesn't seen to be listening. He's gone in a few months any, so he's become irrelevant.

[Cuchulain]

But they still get the scraps, & the king protects them while they eat. When you disolve the responsibilities, there's no more society at all.
You may be right technically. Seems like just semantics in the context of my 'we' and 'me' society comment. I'd call a feudal society where the top dog get's his pick of everything and the majority gets his leftovers a 'me' society...and the CONservatives' idea of heaven.


The egoist mindset isn't just antisocial. It's self destructive, & therefore, insane by definition.

Immoral, crazy and ultimately self-defeating, which is what I've always felt about the CONs philoshophy. Most people tend to agree with Progressive ideas if you present them w/out the demonized term 'Liberal' attached to them.


He's gone in a few months any, so he's become irrelevant
That malignant little prick will be doing damage up until the moment they usher him out the WH door. A perfect example would be his recent endangered species shenanigans: http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5i2F97uCf9YoAJSUUjqv499epbLVAD92HL5R00
I also fully expect him to preemptively pardon Cheney and the other thugs in his administration to w/ever degree he can before he leaves.

[yodajazz]

With all due respect chefmike I have been paying my fair share for years. the gov't takes 40% of mine up front and I still have to kick in well over $100K in april.. what do i get for that? security knowing that some lazy ass has food on their plate because I work like a dog... now barack says even that is not enough.. i don't think so.. he thinks he knows how to spend my money better that I do. I got news for Noboma... get your money from the people on govt subsidy that sit around all day on their dead asses and wait for the checks to roll in

taxes should be a flat rate for all.. that is equality and change... the only thing Noboma knows about change is that after all he takes from me he still wants the change left in my pocket...

I live in an area that was once rich in working class manufacturing jobs, such as steel and auto parts manufacturing. Those people working in those jobs were not lazy. Now the zip code next to my own leads the nation in home foreclosures.

As for taxes, somebody needs to help pay for the wars. Maybe we should be looking more closely at government policies, such as paying off Sunni tribesman. Security operations which were once handled by the military are now going to private contractors which make, many times what the soldiers make. And it is at least doubling the administration cost as these private contracting agencies have their own administrations, through which the moneys are funneled.

I would say you have a lot to be thankful for. You can be thankful that the government is paying for safety forces. But other services, like mental health programs provide safety in a more indirect way. You have an interstate highway system that gives you freedom to get to places you want. The list could go on and on to include such things as food safety, etc.

You may call them lazy, but the impact of more starving people in the US is going to effect you more directly than security issues in Iraq. Plus the benefits of supporting the the poor are greater, because people can move into productive jobs which benefit the whole economy.

Rather than blaming poor people, you would be better off looking at the Dept of Defense. On Sept 10th, 2001, Donald Rumfield held a press conferences and said something like 2.5 TRILLION dollars of Pentagaon spending was unaccounted for. The issue was forgotten as Congress went on to approve more billions in funding.

[strokeitnow]

yodajazz, I am not blaming the poor. I am blaming the lazy people who can work but prefer to let the govt give them money instead. I agree that our own govt wastes so much of everyones tax dollars it makes me sick. My current gripe is that Oboma wants to take more from me. If he told us how he intends to reduce govt spending and waste it might make me feel a bit better.

[Gh0strider]

Look you are being played whether you vote democrat or republican. Neither party is for reducing the size of the govt. With control of two of the branches of govt the republicans expanded the govt more in 8yr of GW than any other president in history including Roosevelt. Look there is a dynamic of the have more and the have nots. Both parties are puppets of Industrial/Military complex that Eisenhower warned us about. Truly rich people never pay the taxes that they are supposed to pay...with a good attorney and lawyer there are lots of ways to avoid paying your true tax rate.

[yodajazz]

Look you are being played whether you vote democrat or republican. Neither party is for reducing the size of the govt. With control of two of the branches of govt the republicans expanded the govt more in 8yr of GW than any other president in history including Roosevelt. Look there is a dynamic of the have more and the have nots. Both parties are puppets of Industrial/Military complex that Eisenhower warned us about. Truly rich people never pay the taxes that they are supposed to pay...with a good attorney and lawyer there are lots of ways to avoid paying your true tax rate.

I think that Eisenhower’s farewell address is worth revisiting. I read somewhere that his warning was actually about “the military/industrial/political complex. I see a problem in that legislators are hired by the corporations that are doing business with the government, when they leave office. To me Dick Cheney is the biggest offender, but it is the whole system.

To me it is not the size of the government, it is about efficiency. I think the theory that private enterprise is always more efficient than government is in question these days in light of the amount of fraud cases from private contractors. But an example of efficiency, I remember reading on a page 4 of our daily newspaper that 18 million dollars of weapons were unaccounted for in Iraq. In a war zone that could have potentially deadly consequences. I never heard anything else about the story. Yet the story on whether Obama was wearing a flag pin got more coverage than that. I don’t think that anyone could die because Obama was not wearing flag pin. And what about our tax money? ‘Dope boys’ are thrown into jail for years for having a few hundred dollars worth of crack, but I read that something like 14 millions dollars had been returned to the government in fraud cases since Bush has been in office, and there are hundreds of cases pending. I question how much jail time was given out for misusing public funds?

There is a lot wrong with the system, but our only viable alternative is to vote against people or parties, in order to seek greater accountability.

[El Nino]

what do i get for that?

You get government mints and a monetary system without which business would be very difficult to conduct. You get a court system that guarantees the contracts you make with other businesses are binding. You get a federal transportation system without which it would be difficult for most businesses to make a dime. You get a food and drug administration that makes sure the food you eat isn’t loaded with carcinogens and the pharmaceuticals you buy are safe and effective. You get a military that’s second to none. You get an energy commission that regulates power and nuclear wastes. Etc.

For you local dollar you get judges, police, a fire department, a zoning commission, schools, parks etc.

First let’s just look at police and fire.


HAHAHA... wow, somebody is happily living in the matrix!

[trish]

That's right Neo. You're the one. You're the god of the matrix and the hero of the real world made of earth and grit. :roll:

So which one of those agencies doesn't really exist? Granted some work more efficiently than others. It didn't help FEMA to put someone in charge who didn't believe that government should be in the business of helping people in need or in times of disaster. It didn't help the justice department to put someone in charge of it who thought torture (by some other name) could be justified.

But government can, has and does work when the elected leaders actually believe in government OF the people, BY the people and FOR the people.