WAR IN GEORGIA... SHOULD WE START DIGGIN OUR SHELTERS?

[BrendaQG]

As you likely know Russia has invaded the rest of Georgia (the former Soviet Socialist Republic.) Putin says it was the Georgians being aggressive. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6083644.stm) :-? Right.... The reason they are supposed to have been so aggressive was that their gaining control over certain break away regions was a pre condition for NATO membership. Do you all know what we would have needed to do if this happend after they were in NATO? (See article 5 of the Atlantic Charter (http://www.nato.int/docu/basictxt/treaty.htm)) We would have to respond to this as if the Russians had attacked the USA! A scenario like this could happen in the future as Latvia and Lithuania are already in NATO! I wouldn't want to trade Chicago for Tbilsi! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DohFN6lHm4c)

What do you all make of this? Should we all start digging our fallout shelters and whording canned food and bottled water? (http://www.oism.org/nwss/s73p916.htm)


Not to mention needing your firearms to shoot the poor half dead irradiated bastards who did not prepare who now think they have a rite to break into your shelter kill you and eat you.

[El Nino]

Actually Putin is correct. The Georgians drew first blood. Out of the blue, as it were.

[trish]

Brenda says:

The reason they are supposed to have been so aggressive was that their gaining control over certain break away regions was a pre condition for NATO membership. Do you all know what we would have needed to do if this happend after they were in NATO? (See article 5 of the Atlantic Charter) We would have to respond to this as if the Russians had attacked the USA!...

I don’t have a full understanding of what’s going on there. So here’s just my current take on the situation.

Control of the break away regions is a precondition for Georgia’s membership in NATO. If Georgia met the precondition (i.e. if it had control of the break away regions), it would not have needed to attempt to regain control. Hence if Georgia had met the precondition, then we would not have to come to their aid (since there would’ve been no attempt to regain control and consequently there would’ve been no response from Russia). However, Georgia doesn’t meet the precondition, hence they aren’t a NATO member and consequently we still don’t have to come to their aid. It seems like NATO chose just the right preconditions.

What can Georgia do? Negotiate with Russia and the breakaways, or renegotiate with NATO. Trying to take the breakaways by force was stupid.

[hippifried]

Georgia IS a breakaway.

NATO should have been disbanded a long time ago.

Oh... & are y'all trying to tell me that you don't already have a bomb shelter?

[BrendaQG]

Trish

I was thinking of how this would be if we had not requiered that they have full control before being admitted to NATO. If that had been the case...well... we'd all be water vapor and carbon by now if we were lucky.

@hippie.

Are you saying it's ok for Russia to invade Georgia which broke away from the Soviet Union?

Either way it's ironic that after talking about freedom and self determination Georgia would deny that to a group within it's own borders....trying to crush them by sending in their tanks. I suppose we in the west would not have heard boo about it if Russia had not reacted like it did.

I thought of this in the car today. Because George Bush is a man of principles. If we have made earnest promises for security to them his principles dictate we back them up. He would push that red button. Guaranteed.

[NYBURBS]

NATO is a dinosaur that has outlived its purpose, and as such needs to be disbanded. This whole notion that one Nation is obligated to go to war for another is insanity. I'll give you that there were special circumstances in the mid 20th century that made this a viable option; however, that is no longer the case.

We also made a mistake not embracing the Russians more after the end of the cold war, and in not doing more to encourage real reforms (both economically and politically). They are now sliding backwards in their political reforms.

Honestly if the roles were reversed we would absolutely be outraged if the Russians were trying to place bases and missile components in our backyard. Shit we went to DEFCON 2 the last time they tried something like that. So this whole NATO expansion is a touchy issue for them.

Every region has its particular history of political struggles and disagreements. From what I have read this dispute has quite a bit of history to it; the argument goes back at least to the early 1900's. We should encourage diplomatic solutions and embrace emerging democracies, but going into WWIII over a dispute most of us know nothing or little about would be lunacy.

[trish]

Hey, Brenda. I agree we’d be in a hell of a mess were we obligated to come to Georgia’s aid. We can’t even implement a decent surge in Iraq without extending our troops’ tours of duty. It seems to me NATO chose that particular precondition deliberately and wisely. (I’ve already admitted that I know next to nothing about Georgia and I’m assuming you’re correct about the precondition placed on Georgia by NATO’s membership action plan.) The precondition essentially bars Georgia’s membership in NATO unless it can guarantee the stability of the region; i.e. guarantee that NATO won’t be dragged into needless confrontation with Russia.

I think I’m also agreeing with you, and hippiefried and NYBURBS in observing that NATO is was cold war artifice which functioned reasonably well in the era of MAD. But today it may create more uncertainty than stability (the present situation being an example).

It remains to be seen if NATO can redefine its function and purpose to meet modern challenges.

[hippifried]

Are you saying it's ok for Russia to invade Georgia which broke away from the Soviet Union?
I'm saying there's too many conflicting stories as to what this is all about, so I'm not willing to rekindle the cold war over it. I think it's always stupid to try & settle disputes with bombs & bullets. All it shows is a lack of imagination. It never ceases to amaze me that the dumbest people anywhere are usually the so-called "leaders"

[El Nino]

Trish, we've had special ops in Georgia for the past 2 months, and have been overtly transporting their troops from Iraq back to Georgia the past 5 days. We are already directly involved. I do not have the time to explain this game of chess, but the information is available if you seek it out. One hint, don't believe anything the MSM is spitting out. Its all falsehoods and smokescreens. Keywords: Tel Aviv, BP, Pipeline, NATO, CFR, 08/08/08/...

[BrendaQG]

Trish, we've had special ops in Georgia for the past 2 months, and have been overtly transporting their troops from Iraq back to Georgia the past 5 days. We are already directly involved. I do not have the time to explain this game of chess, but the information is available if you seek it out. One hint, don't believe anything the MSM is spitting out. Its all falsehoods and smokescreens. Keywords: Tel Aviv, BP, Pipeline, NATO, CFR, 08/08/08/...

IF so then we got our asses kicked because Russia has basically declared victory and is in possession of South Ossetia and has demonstrated that it still dominates it's border region.

@ Trish

Yes I agree that NATO as now constituted makes little sense. We should give the Baltic states Poland and such places the boot. Perhaps make a different less strong alliance with them.

[hippifried]

NATO is was cold war artifice which functioned reasonably well in the era of MAD. But today it may create more uncertainty than stability
It's always created more uncertainty than stability. "MAD" was just that & still is.

I grew up in the days of conelrad & "duck & cover". I don't want to go back. I don't want my grandchildren to have to deal with that crap. I don't even wish that BS on Niño.

As a babyboomer, I'm a member of the first generation of humans capable of their own total annihilation. I'm also in the first generation of Americans expected (just because I was born here) to continue my education past the elementary level. We take a lot for granted. I'm just sick & tired of jackasses trying to return the country to the bad old days of the past just because they have some bogus rosy picture of what it was. It's sad that we're constantly warned about repeating history by the people who are working tirelessly to make it repeat, & that so many people buy the bullshit.

[trish]

Never heard of conelrad before. Had to google it.

[BrendaQG]

@ hippie

I grew up in the age of "the day after". The age of Ronald Regan and the idea of acceptable nuclear casualties. The age of talk of 2nd and third strike weapons (Nukes that would survive after the first and second counter force attacks.) Basically an era where I could be almost certain I would die in nuclear warfare....preferably quickly and not from radiation.

Trust me on this end of the Cold war generations it's not much better. At least you had "Duck and Cover". All we had was kiss your ass goodbye.

[chefmike]

. I do not have the time to explain this game of chess, but the information is available if you seek it out.

LMAO...most here are already familiar with the batshit crazy sources where you obtain your secret "information." If you ever did post a legit source it would be just like the little boy who cried wolf. No one would listen.

[hippifried]

Never heard of conelrad before. Had to google it.
Well... I was going to make a snide remark about your age, but I forgot what I was going to say. Brenda,

At least you had "Duck and Cover". All we had was kiss your ass goodbye.
Us too. We knew. Even in the 3rd grade while we were crouched in the hall against the interior wall, the question was: Why bother if the bomb's going to vaporize the building anyway? I don't know how many people actually believed Reagan's bullshit that global thermonuclear war was winnable, but that's all it was. The strange thing about MAD is that it only works when some sense of sanity controls both sides. Reagan broke that.

[trish]

Well... I was going to make a snide remark about your age, but I forgot what I was going to say. :)

I've always been a fan of the B-grade sci-fi movies and spy films of the 50's, as well as a fan of the Twilight Zone. It's not difficult to see in these expressions the stress of living in a politically unstable world stocked with enough fusion bombs to vaporize the entire biosphere ten times over and poison it for several hundred thousand years to boot. I can't imagine what goes through a child's head when he's under his desk in anticipation of such horror. It's a mad mad mad mad mad mad world!

[Tomfurbs]

Russia and the US are never going to engage in Nuclear war.

Brenda I suggest you use that garden space you set aside for your air-raid shelter as a nice shrubbery, or maybe a pond.

[bartholomeus]

poland already signed the agreement to put missles there and we have one with turkey the u.s wants to work one with the Czech Republic....

http://therealnews.com/id/2061/August 16, 2008/US+missile+deal+enrages+Russia

[bartholomeus]

Russia is doing almost the same thing the U.S did with Yugoslavia, separating a sovereign nation and also similar to the kosovo situation were the U.S supported the separatist movement of the kosovo people from Serbia.

Now that Russia supports the separatist movement of the ossetian people Bush and McCain condemn them saying its immoral to invade a country in the 21st century(forgetting about the occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan)..... they are trying to make a double standard, and because of them we as a nation lose the moral and ethical right to tell them not to do it. This coupled with the overstretch of the troops all over the world(korea border, iraq, afghanistan, somalia.....) made the U.S unable to respond to this.

They will never get in a direct shooting war with russia due to the nuclear arsenal so they rushed the signature of the missile treaties in the region, despite the threats that Putin has made since last year (even before) that it would provoke an arms race in the region.

[BrendaQG]

Russia and the US are never going to engage in Nuclear war.

Brenda I suggest you use that garden space you set aside for your air-raid shelter as a nice shrubbery, or maybe a pond.

Oh really. Look who has faith in the sanity of G. W. Bush all of the sudden. I don't blame you. I mean supposedly we have a ceasefire in Georgia and we can all breath easily. Or do we?

NATO agrees to censure Russia

Peter O’Neil, Europe Correspondent, Canwest News Service Published: Tuesday, August 19, 2008 (http://www.reuters.com/article/vcCandidateFeed2/idUSN1947796120080819)

BRUSSELS -- The North Atlantic Treaty Organization has agreed to formally condemn Russia for refusing to adhere to its ceasefire commitment aimed at ending its occupation of large chunks of neighbouring Georgia.

"What is a promise worth, made on paper... when the promise is not fulfilled?" NATO Secretary General Jaap de Hoop Scheffer demanded at a news conference in the Belgian capital Tuesday.

The comments came even as the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe announced earlier in the day that Russia had agreed to allow an increase in the number of unarmed military observers into Georgia to verify whether Moscow's ceasefire commitments are being honoured.

The OSCE, a 56-member alliance of countries in Europe, North America, and Central Asia, still needs Georgia's approval before it sends 20 foreign observers along the border area -- but not yet inside -- the disputed region of South Ossetia, said Finnish Foreign Minister Alexander Stubb, the organization's chairman.

The decision coincides with conflicting reports about whether Russia has followed through on its promise to start moving troops out of the conflict zones, as promised in a France-brokered ceasefire deal struck last week.

"We need those observers there and we need them now, because there is so much disinformation about what's going on in the war zone," Mr. Stubb told reporters. Disinformation, he added, "can lead to disastrous things."

The pending agreement comes as foreign ministers gathered here for an emergency meeting of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization.

Canadian Foreign Minister David Emerson didn't speak to reporters as he entered NATO headquarters, but Canada's ambassador to Belgium was expected to brief journalists later in the day.

NATO members are split, according to reports, with the U.S. and the British eager to take a hard line against Moscow. Countries such as Germany and Italy are said to be more reluctant to provoke Russia, which has been enraged by what it sees as U.S. and European interference in countries along its border.

U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said Monday she won't press her counterparts to accelerate Georgia's entry into NATO, an alliance that requires all members, including Canada, to come to the aid of any member under attack.

There are already nine OSCE military observers in Georgia, with a mandate to report on events in the breakaway, Russian-backed South Ossetia region.

But their access to conflict zones has been severely restricted since Georgia's Aug. 7 military assault against separatists in South Ossetia, which resulted in Russia's invasion the next day.

Stubb said Tuesday's agreement allows the number of observers to increase to 100. He said the initial 20 would be stationed along the unofficial border that separates South Ossetia from the rest of Georgia, which was penetrated by Russian troops and armour during the invasion.

He said he hopes Russia will allow the observers to go into South Ossetia and Abkhazia, the other Russian-backed separatist region now controlled by Russian troops.

The pending agreement is necessary for negotiations to begin on a long-term resolution regarding the status of the two regions, the Finnish minister said.

But Mr. Stubb acknowledged he could only hope there will eventually be an international peacekeeping force in Georgia's disputed territories.

"I have to be realistic."

________________

My friends WWIII would not come as Hollywood and TV movies would have us believe. Just suddenly one day without warning the button is pushed. Tensions would rise slowly. Until in a matter of month's the unthinkable becomes imaginable and the improbable is done.

I'm still slowly building a stockpile of imperishable provisions. Though I have not yet dug up my garden... (I think if I really thought warfare was eminent I would pack up my immediate family drive way out to the country side and make a deal with a farmer. Let us dig our shelter on your land and in the aftermath we will work for you in exchange for food sort of a deal. Oh and being a MTF TS after that point would basically require physical castration... ouch! I think about this stuff too much. )

[Tomfurbs]

Russia and the US are never going to engage in Nuclear war.

Brenda I suggest you use that garden space you set aside for your air-raid shelter as a nice shrubbery, or maybe a pond.

Oh really. Look who has faith in the sanity of G. W. Bush all of the sudden. I don't blame you. I mean supposedly we have a ceasefire in Georgia and we can all breath easily. Or do we?

NATO agrees to censure Russia

Peter O’Neil, Europe Correspondent, Canwest News Service Published: Tuesday, August 19, 2008 (http://www.reuters.com/article/vcCandidateFeed2/idUSN1947796120080819)

BRUSSELS -- The North Atlantic Treaty Organization has agreed to formally condemn Russia for refusing to adhere to its ceasefire commitment aimed at ending its occupation of large chunks of neighbouring Georgia.

"What is a promise worth, made on paper... when the promise is not fulfilled?" NATO Secretary General Jaap de Hoop Scheffer demanded at a news conference in the Belgian capital Tuesday.

The comments came even as the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe announced earlier in the day that Russia had agreed to allow an increase in the number of unarmed military observers into Georgia to verify whether Moscow's ceasefire commitments are being honoured.

The OSCE, a 56-member alliance of countries in Europe, North America, and Central Asia, still needs Georgia's approval before it sends 20 foreign observers along the border area -- but not yet inside -- the disputed region of South Ossetia, said Finnish Foreign Minister Alexander Stubb, the organization's chairman.

The decision coincides with conflicting reports about whether Russia has followed through on its promise to start moving troops out of the conflict zones, as promised in a France-brokered ceasefire deal struck last week.

"We need those observers there and we need them now, because there is so much disinformation about what's going on in the war zone," Mr. Stubb told reporters. Disinformation, he added, "can lead to disastrous things."

The pending agreement comes as foreign ministers gathered here for an emergency meeting of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization.

Canadian Foreign Minister David Emerson didn't speak to reporters as he entered NATO headquarters, but Canada's ambassador to Belgium was expected to brief journalists later in the day.

NATO members are split, according to reports, with the U.S. and the British eager to take a hard line against Moscow. Countries such as Germany and Italy are said to be more reluctant to provoke Russia, which has been enraged by what it sees as U.S. and European interference in countries along its border.

U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said Monday she won't press her counterparts to accelerate Georgia's entry into NATO, an alliance that requires all members, including Canada, to come to the aid of any member under attack.

There are already nine OSCE military observers in Georgia, with a mandate to report on events in the breakaway, Russian-backed South Ossetia region.

But their access to conflict zones has been severely restricted since Georgia's Aug. 7 military assault against separatists in South Ossetia, which resulted in Russia's invasion the next day.

Stubb said Tuesday's agreement allows the number of observers to increase to 100. He said the initial 20 would be stationed along the unofficial border that separates South Ossetia from the rest of Georgia, which was penetrated by Russian troops and armour during the invasion.

He said he hopes Russia will allow the observers to go into South Ossetia and Abkhazia, the other Russian-backed separatist region now controlled by Russian troops.

The pending agreement is necessary for negotiations to begin on a long-term resolution regarding the status of the two regions, the Finnish minister said.

But Mr. Stubb acknowledged he could only hope there will eventually be an international peacekeeping force in Georgia's disputed territories.

"I have to be realistic."

________________

My friends WWIII would not come as Hollywood and TV movies would have us believe. Just suddenly one day without warning the button is pushed. Tensions would rise slowly. Until in a matter of month's the unthinkable becomes imaginable and the improbable is done.

I'm still slowly building a stockpile of imperishable provisions. Though I have not yet dug up my garden... (I think if I really thought warfare was eminent I would pack up my immediate family drive way out to the country side and make a deal with a farmer. Let us dig our shelter on your land and in the aftermath we will work for you in exchange for food sort of a deal. Oh and being a MTF TS after that point would basically require physical castration... ouch! I think about this stuff too much. )

What the hell? Saying the USofA and Russia will never enter into a nuclear war has fuckall to do with trusting the Shrub!

No, the US and Russia will never engage in Nuclear War with each other. I know this because I am a sane individual. It would be catastrophic for both Nations and cause the end of the CIVILISED (yes I do not think that Iran, Yemen, Oman, Egypt and Saudi Arabia are civilised...sue me) WORLD.

I know this because I live in the real world and have a clean bill of mental health. You sleep with a knife under your pillow and beat people with car doors when you get your rage on, meanwhile muttering such insanities as ''freedom is guaranteed only by cold steel'.

It would be a better expenditure of your time and effort to start worrying about crazy nations like Israel packing Nuclear arms. Now that gives me the fear.

How's that pond coming along?





p.s: I just want to quote this little nugget, for posterity's sake.

From BrendaGQ(GQ LMAO)'s last post:

I'm still slowly building a stockpile of imperishable provisions. Though I have not yet dug up my garden... (I think if I really thought warfare was eminent I would pack up my immediate family drive way out to the country side and make a deal with a farmer. Let us dig our shelter on your land and in the aftermath we will work for you in exchange for food sort of a deal. Oh and being a MTF TS after that point would basically require physical castration... ouch! I think about this stuff too much. )
_________________

[hippifried]

Why would Russia care about a censure by NATO? Isn't that the whole purpose of NATO in the first place?

[BrendaQG]

Why would Russia care about a censure by NATO? Isn't that the whole purpose of NATO in the first place?

Exactly. The last I hear on the news was crazy GWB talking about the west guarnateeing Georgia's territorial integrity and independence. I also heard right wingers talking about how much Georgia should join "the west". I would think that geography has placed Georgia firmly in Russia's sphere of influence.

I have no faith that this insanity would stay contained.

@Tomfurbs.

I never said you weren't sane. But I will ask you this now. Is it not insane to live in total denial of the fact that thermonuclear war is at least a remote possibility. (A possibility which seems to come closer with every utterance of GWB on this topic. )

[muhmuh]

Is it not insane to live in total denial of the fact that thermonuclear war is at least a remote possibility.

no its not and if anything its completely insane not to buy a house right next to a missile base or other high probability target if you think that a nuclear war is a real possibility

[bartholomeus]

Actually they have about 10 minutes from what i remember to react to an ICBM launched from the other side of the globe.

Russia protests because these missiles would intercept their ICBMs and can also serve as nuclear war heads... in which case THEY would have a much smaller reaction time smaller than 10 minutes.... under such pressure they have to identify the launch and find out if its a test, a rocket to go to space, were its going (if its heading to them) etc etc.... if they have less than 10 minutes for this its very likely that they would just launch their missiles in an offense.....

This is the same reason the U.S didn't want missiles in Cuba, and the same reason why NUCLEAR war is a possibility. The U.S alone has 7,000 war heads, also the russians have incremented their arsenal of TNW(tactical nuclear weapons---.1 kiloton of power upwards to 1 megaton) to make up for the gap between the more modern U.S smart bombs and all that sort of technology.

Using a TNW even of .1 kiloton would be a threshold to nuclear war BUT more feasible because its power is smaller taking out a few entire blocks or kilometers squared. After a country uses these its likely the other one (U.S or other with TNWs) will use them too and also escalate the power of these.

That Said if Russia is pushed against the wall they can always use these and eventually the higher power ones.

I know war can start when a crazy man like GWB tries to encircle a nuclear power with a missile shield which can serve as both nuclear defense and offense.... Its just crazy.

[bartholomeus]

Why would Russia care about a censure by NATO? Isn't that the whole purpose of NATO in the first place?

No NATO was created to stop the USSR not russia itself.... :roll:

[Tomfurbs]

Is it not insane to live in total denial of the fact that thermonuclear war is at least a remote possibility. (A possibility which seems to come closer with every utterance of GWB on this topic. )

Many things are remote possibilities. There is a remote possibility that God exists, for example. Does that mean I believe? Nope.

Meanwhile, life goes on. You can continue stockpiling your provisions, and I will continue living unencumbered by irrational fear.

When armageddon comes, we will both burn, only you will own more cans of baked beans than me. So I guess you win.

[hippifried]

Why would Russia care about a censure by NATO? Isn't that the whole purpose of NATO in the first place?

No NATO was created to stop the USSR not russia itself.... :roll:
Nah. It's always been about the Russians. The only reason anybody has ever cared about the other SSRs is because they created a buffer around the Russians. USSR & Russia have always been interchangable in word & thought process. Russia's a capitalist country now, but nobody cares. They're still those godless commie Tsarists that have always been our ally in war & our enemy in peace.

[bartholomeus]

Why would Russia care about a censure by NATO? Isn't that the whole purpose of NATO in the first place?

No NATO was created to stop the USSR not russia itself.... :roll:
Nah. It's always been about the Russians. The only reason anybody has ever cared about the other SSRs is because they created a buffer around the Russians. USSR & Russia have always been interchangable in word & thought process. Russia's a capitalist country now, but nobody cares. They're still those godless commie Tsarists that have always been our ally in war & our enemy in peace.

No it hasn't. Before WWI and WWII it was about many different powers.... by WWI it was about the Germans and no body did anything about the Russian revolution after WWII it was about the NAZI, now its about Russia. The fact remains that the U.S wants to become the only power in the world. The European powers already bow to them in many ways; they haven't completely bent over and taken it in the ass for the U.S because Russia provides them with natural gas as well as crude....

Still the possibility for nuclear war remains, specially with countries like north Korea and Iran seeking these. No body cares about the war on terror anymore because not everyone is oblivious to the blanket of lies bush used to invade Iraq. Now they need another common enemy to control the common American citizen and continue this arms and invasion buildup around the world. This was just the conflict that they needed to "wake up the bear" like the American media is hyping it. Many of the politics analysts have concluded that it was very unlikely for the U.S not to know about the plans for invasion. Specially having so many American people training them along with American extremist ally, Israel.

If this continues we can expect patriot act part "trois"; further taking away the common American citizens rights while the elitist control and endanger us for the power struggle of the globe. Bush is in a position were if war was to break out he can declare martial law, very unlikely but possible none the less.


We need new leaders who stand up for the ORIGINAL ideals of our founding fathers, not for their own power greed. We need to co-exist not spread the seeds of war.

[hippifried]

Bull! Before WWI, there was no Soviet Union. You can babble about the archduke who got killed in Bosnia & whatnot, but that whole fiasco started over a pissing match between the German Kaiser & his cousin the Russian Czar. That was the last straw for the already starving Russian people & they deserted the army in droves to join the rebellion to get rid of that putz & any chance of a return to inherited power. Scared the shit out of the Europeans, the eurocentric, & even those emperor worshiping Japanese who just couldn't fathom the idea that civilization could continue without bluebloods running the show. Yhat's why the international commando force was sent in to salvage the status quo. It failed. The reason for the expansive buffer zone that became the Soviet Union was the fact that Russia kept getting invaded. When the sabers didn't stop rattling, The strongman Stalin managed to take post-revolutionary control.

The reality is that they were trying to do the same thing that we did. We were able to pull it off easier because there was an ocean between us & the eurotrash. Plus the French had become the European target because they had gotten rid of their royal stupidity too. The Brits still tried to invade & take back their colonies. They're the only foreign nation that has ever attempted to invade the contiguous United States. No so with the Russians. They were forced to create their own ocean of separation on dry land. After losing so many people during that last German invasion, they flexed their muscle, expanded their buffer westward, & scared the eurotrash even more.

The Soviets were never the enemy. They were the competition. Nato was always bullshit & still is. It was always about bottling up the Russians. The whole battle of "isms" was always a lie.

[Tomfurbs]

Heh heh... 'eurotrash' lmao.

[dafame]

Here's the truth of this situation. This is a Karl Rove political ploy as much as it has to do with the political decisions of our current administration. The Bush administration by invading Iraq completely depleted the standing that the United States had in the world view. Furthermore, it gave Russia the excuse it needed to plot and carry out its second attempt to control Easter Europe.

How can the United States now or NATO for that matter say anything when the U.S. invaded a country without provocation. This was the fundamental problem with the U.S. ever invading a sovereign nation and the reason that our previous policy prohibited us from doing so. That policy had far more to do with keeping Russia at bay than it had to do with us being a loving and peaceful nation. Well that ended with the Bush administrations decision to invade Iraq.

There are big plans that the administration has for the Middle East in general which will basically turn many of the nations into U.S. providence where we have complete control over all resources that come out of those regions. This can be referred to as "World Domination". Someone now has to continue the plans that the Bush administration has set forth otherwise it was all for nil. This will now fall to John McCain. This is why you have heard him make statements about staying in Iraq (or the Middle East) for 100 years if necessary. This is why we have heard a need to invade Pakistan, and Iran. It's not just about Iraq; Iraq was only a prelude of what's to come. This is why we have heard him mention the re-institution of the war draft. Understand people that if John McCain becomes president THERE WILL BE A DRAFT. There will have to be. There is no way possible for them to be able to carry out war on multiple fronts with the current state of our military.

Now here is where Rove comes into play. Karl Rove had a three day meeting with high ranking Georgian political and military officials including President Mikheil Saakashvili two weeks prior to the Georgia's attack of Russia. Ask yourselves this question: Why would a tiny country in it's infancy that just recently established it's independence from Russia suddenly without provocation attack Russia, a country that it has no chance of doing anything to or even truly defending itself against? It is so necessary to continue this plan that the Republican Party has convinced Georgia to attack Russia as a means of once again scaring the country into voting for the Flash Oooh, They'll Save Ever One of Us Republicans. Unfortunately they won't save any of us if indeed we end up in a war with Russia, infact this election will mark one of the most critical moments in not just American, but the world’s history.

Obama CAN save us. I'm not saying that this man was sent to us by God to deliver us from the darkness or something but understand the facts.

Georgia is our ally, as was Iraq to Russia. But it goes deeper than that. Have you ever purchased a dvd player, microwave, cell phone, vehicle, garment, children’s toy, or anything that you can think of that said made in Russia? No, and this is because Russia doesn't distribute any Russian made products throughout the world economy other than weaponry. Russia is built on a war economy. This is the reason they prospered throughout the "Cold War". They were developing weapons in an arms race with us while selling it's weapons to European nations that were buying those weapons as a means of protecting themselves from Russian Invasion. They had the middle east sown up as well and let's not forget Vietnam, which for them was like hitting the lottory.

Now since the Cold War ended Iraq has been a nation that provided a stimulus to Russian economy through the purchase of Russian manufactured weapons. However, Iran is probably the biggest buyer of Russian weapons currently and it is again and ally to Russia. So understand Russia's options if the United States decides to attack Iran. Russia can A: Sit back and observe the conflict and the consequential spike in its economy due to the flood of weapons that will be purchased throughout the conflict.
Or, B: Russia can realizing that if they do not have the weapon purchases of Iran (and let's not forget about Iraq) they will not be able to sustain their economy and the growth that they have made within the last 10 years will have been for nothing. They can also realize that any conflict that Iran has with the U.S. will not be one that Iran will be able to sustain long enough for the sudden rush of profits to be worth more than the sustained relationship and sustained profits it was receiving from Iran. This is what will ultimately drive Russia into the war with the United States and her allies and thus the third world war will have begun. Here's where this ties back to the current race for the white house and Barack Obama. This country's deepest sin is slavery and racism. It is so ironic to me that it will be up to a black man to save the world. Think about it. This is America’s test. Has this country gotten past is racist ways enough to save itself? I guess we'll see come November. Otherwise I pray for us all.

[qeuqheeg222]

there will never be a huge war...too many rich multinational corps. and the richest one% will lose all of there markets.....there never was a real threat of ww3..except the cuban missile crisis...show for each party to build its military industrial complex and keep markets in place...

[bartholomeus]

so you're saying that the Iranian weapons sales is what keeps Russian economy afloat? or that they would risk a world war and to an extent nuclear for 1 countries purchases?

Eurasia has generous oil deposits thats the reason they want that, same reason the U.S wants it. Until we have alternate energies who ever controls crude will be able to influence and control most of the world. Same reason why were are in the middle-east.... black gold. Thats one they'll risk a war for.